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Author Topic: Possible Window Slide  (Read 16479 times)

Tim Mellon

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Possible Window Slide
« on: July 29, 2014, 07:57:58 PM »

I would like to focus at this moment on the study of the rivet pattern made by Jay Vincelli. The attachment shows the CAD model overlaid upon the image of the "bumps" from the 2010 High Definition Video.

May I call your attention, please, to the one rivet where the center in the model differs slightly (less than a rivet's radius) from the center of the perceived rivet in the video. The CAD model, of course, was developed from the rivet pattern under the pilot's window of Grace McGuire's Lockheed 10E Electra. It should not be surprising if the rivets on one Electra differ slightly from those on another Electra: after all, I think it is safe to say that all the riveting was done by hand in the 1930s, and not by robotic machines.

In his study, Jay placed the pattern of the CAD at the forward end of the line of rivets under the pilot's left window. But the rivet with the offset center might be anywhere along the entire length of the window frame. So I have asked Jay to see if, from actual photos of the Earhart Electra, he could determine if there actually existed a matching "off-center-rivet". If so, we might be able to attain higher fit than the 84% that was calculated with respect to the McGuire Electra window frame.

Not that the 84% is shabby, of course.
Tim
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2014, 08:18:35 PM »

The interpretation of underwater photographs has to this point been accomplished using the analysis described by Jeff Glickman in TIGHAR's Research Bulletin #63 printed in 2013. The nine criteria used by Jeff in analyzing the potential of an artifact are shown in the attachment hereto.

How does this Possible Window Slide shape up? Let's apply Jeff's 9 criteria:

1. Differences in organic (natural) vs. man-made shapes. My opinion is that the parallel sides to the track, as well as the regular, alternating, pattern of the bumps, puts this artifact squarely in the man-made column.

2. Texture differences between objects within a neighborhood. The second attachment, showing the artifact, demonstrates vivid contrast with the surrounding surface and objects.

3. Pattern differences between objects within a neighborhood. Ditto. Nothing nearby looks anything like the artifact in question.

4. Color differences within multiple color spaces within a neighborhood. The maroonish color of the artifact contrasts vividly with all surrounding objects.

5. Color absorption differences (spectrometry) between specific objects. I do not have the equipment or expertise to make any determination in this case.

6. Temporal similarities vs. differences between video frames. The integrity of the artifact is not diminished either frame-to-frame or between various sets of frames (the artifact appears on multiple occasions in the 8.55 minute High Definition video from 2010: in the two attachments below, the respective time stamps are 13:41:04;12 and 13:43:48;24).

7. Object size and scale information which may be relative, absolute and ratiometric (mensuration). The third attachment places the artifact in context: it sits to the left of the open cockpit of the Electra (see third attachment) wherein the pilot's seat cushion is clearly visible (IMHO) and the relative sizes of seat cushion and window slide are reasonably comparable.

8. Object interaction with its environment. The artifact rests on the side of the fuselage, as I interpret the photos, outside the aircraft's cockpit.

9. Location information including absolute position, relative position, and context. Absolute position is at a depth of 255 meters, down-slope from the presumed position of the "Bevington Object", as sought by the ROV operators on the Niku VI expedition. Relative position and context have been covered above.

I am convinced that this artifact is a section of the window slide from the pilot's window of the Lockheed Electra, registration NR16020, lost in July of 1937.


Tim
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« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 08:55:47 PM by Tim Mellon »
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JNev

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2014, 08:48:27 PM »

Hey Tim -

I'll grant you that is an interesting pattern, although I still have major reservations.

I love the process you are working at with this though. At the end of the day it's that determination to deliberately keep cutting to the truth that counts.

Thanks for contributing to that process. I'm betting you will get some interesting discussion going.
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JNev

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2014, 08:43:47 AM »

Tim,

Looking at this interesting picture further I notice what looks a lot like more 'rivets' in an ascending line on what could be taken as a 'connected channel' -

I've outlined the vertical 'line of rivets' in yellow, and an area where some sort of junction seems suggested with green.

Can't tell for sure, but the vertical line may be rubble - although there is an fascinating pattern there.  Something about the shadowing really makes me think at least some of this is natural - maybe some subtle irregularities among shapes that suggest a man-made pattern.  But it is an interesting view.

- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 08:45:41 AM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2014, 09:02:04 AM »

The 'Rivet pattern' appear raised, almost like a sea cucumber IMVO

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JNev

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2014, 11:29:31 AM »

Had not thought of a sea cucumber, interesting too.  It is a complex world down there after all.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2014, 02:58:22 PM »

Tim,

Looking at this interesting picture further I notice what looks a lot like more 'rivets' in an ascending line on what could be taken as a 'connected channel' -

I've outlined the vertical 'line of rivets' in yellow, and an area where some sort of junction seems suggested with green.

Can't tell for sure, but the vertical line may be rubble - although there is an fascinating pattern there.  Something about the shadowing really makes me think at least some of this is natural - maybe some subtle irregularities among shapes that suggest a man-made pattern.  But it is an interesting view.

Jeff, the Supplemental Report hereto attached shows that the piece you have circled is the window track in question. I have not posted it till today because I was hoping to wait for the final report that may have some further refinements of the analysis. The close-up of the rivets shown at the top of this thread comes from that same "vertical" piece.
Tim
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Will Hatchell

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2014, 03:15:13 PM »

Had not thought of a sea cucumber, interesting too.  It is a complex world down there after all.

Anyone please correct me, but isn't this depth below the reach of sunlight and natural photosynthesis needed for such as sea cucumbers, etc.? Maybe Tim could "enlighten" us re exact depth. If it's in the range of say 900' it would be totally dark – I think the base of the photosynthesis zone is somewhere around 600'??  ???
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2014, 03:52:18 PM »

Had not thought of a sea cucumber, interesting too.  It is a complex world down there after all.

Anyone please correct me, but isn't this depth below the reach of sunlight and natural photosynthesis needed for such as sea cucumbers, etc.? Maybe Tim could "enlighten" us re exact depth. If it's in the range of say 900' it would be totally dark – I think the base of the photosynthesis zone is somewhere around 600'??  ???

The object lies at 255 meters of depth according to the 2010 Standard Definition video. That corresponds to 837 feet.

Flora is possible at this depth, but if it were a sea cucumber, I think we would see other examples hither and yon in the other 2010 and 2012 underwater videos. I dare say window slides (if that 's what it turns out to be) are not nearly so ubiquitous.
Tim
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« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 03:56:42 PM by Tim Mellon »
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JNev

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2014, 04:15:34 PM »

Tim,

Looking at this interesting picture further I notice what looks a lot like more 'rivets' in an ascending line on what could be taken as a 'connected channel' -

I've outlined the vertical 'line of rivets' in yellow, and an area where some sort of junction seems suggested with green.

Can't tell for sure, but the vertical line may be rubble - although there is an fascinating pattern there.  Something about the shadowing really makes me think at least some of this is natural - maybe some subtle irregularities among shapes that suggest a man-made pattern.  But it is an interesting view.

Jeff, the Supplemental Report hereto attached shows that the piece you have circled is the window track in question. I have not posted it till today because I was hoping to wait for the final report that may have some further refinements of the analysis. The close-up of the rivets shown at the top of this thread comes from that same "vertical" piece.

Thanks, Tim.

I guess I'm still trying to figure out how the 'horizontal' piece at the 'top' fits into the 'vertical' piece (what is their relationship).  They do not appear to be juxtaposed in a way that fits the window frame / slide arrangement as we see it on the Electra (your report pictures are very nice).  So I guess that leaves me wondering how this neatly 'crossed T' fits what we observe on the Electra cockpit windows.  If there was a vertical element on the airplane that intersected the horizontal channel then it would make more sense to me - have I missed something?
- Jeff Neville

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Ian MacKay

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2014, 04:42:42 PM »

With regard to the discussion of photosynthesis and flora at depth: A sea cucumber is an animal, not a plant. No photosynthesis. They are found as deep as 2000 meters (6500 feet), according to this website: http://www.divernet.com/Marine-Life/951174/the_secret_lives_of_sea_cucumbers.html.

So there is no reason why it cannot be a sea cucumber at this depth. Whether it is, and whether those are rivets or bumps on an echinoderm, or something else entirely, is another matter of course.

~Ian
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2014, 04:53:24 PM »


Thanks, Tim.

I guess I'm still trying to figure out how the 'horizontal' piece at the 'top' fits into the 'vertical' piece (what is their relationship).  They do not appear to be juxtaposed in a way that fits the window frame / slide arrangement as we see it on the Electra (your report pictures are very nice).  So I guess that leaves me wondering how this neatly 'crossed T' fits what we observe on the Electra cockpit windows.  If there was a vertical element on the airplane that intersected the horizontal channel then it would make more sense to me - have I missed something?

The "vertical" piece in the picture is presumed to be the horizontal track in which the pilot's side window slides back and forth.

The "horizontal" piece in the photo has not been placed on the airplane. It may or may not actually be attached to the vertical piece. But it is clearly of similar genre, that is to say, evenly spaced rivet-like bumps in a strip of similar material, presumably metal, possibly aluminum.
Tim
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2014, 05:01:20 PM »

And the bumps on the surface of sea cucumbers just don't seem as regular as those in the photo object.

Tim
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JNev

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2014, 06:20:05 PM »

With regard to the discussion of photosynthesis and flora at depth: A sea cucumber is an animal, not a plant. No photosynthesis. They are found as deep as 2000 meters (6500 feet), according to this website: http://www.divernet.com/Marine-Life/951174/the_secret_lives_of_sea_cucumbers.html.

So there is no reason why it cannot be a sea cucumber at this depth. Whether it is, and whether those are rivets or bumps on an echinoderm, or something else entirely, is another matter of course.

~Ian

"Echinoderm" - that's the word I was looking for...  ;)
- Jeff Neville

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JNev

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Re: Possible Window Slide
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2014, 06:30:03 PM »


Thanks, Tim.

I guess I'm still trying to figure out how the 'horizontal' piece at the 'top' fits into the 'vertical' piece (what is their relationship).  They do not appear to be juxtaposed in a way that fits the window frame / slide arrangement as we see it on the Electra (your report pictures are very nice).  So I guess that leaves me wondering how this neatly 'crossed T' fits what we observe on the Electra cockpit windows.  If there was a vertical element on the airplane that intersected the horizontal channel then it would make more sense to me - have I missed something?

The "vertical" piece in the picture is presumed to be the horizontal track in which the pilot's side window slides back and forth.

The "horizontal" piece in the photo has not been placed on the airplane. It may or may not actually be attached to the vertical piece. But it is clearly of similar genre, that is to say, evenly spaced rivet-like bumps in a strip of similar material, presumably metal, possibly aluminum.

Thanks, Tim.

It is the horizontal piece that is such an eye-grabber to me, regarding the 'rivet' placement consideration.  I just couldn't account for how it related to the vertical piece - but as you noted, we don't know that they are connected.

Interesting, thanks!
- Jeff Neville

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