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Author Topic: 2-2-V-1 - patch?  (Read 1104185 times)

Greg Daspit

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2014, 05:59:00 PM »

A hard landing on the reef could have initiated the failure of the patch if it had been a structurally weak area.

Yes, and/or the weak area could have cracked the window on hard landing in Miami.

It's likely an overall weak point, with the door location on the other side. Surf action could split the fuselage at a point between the two openings(aft edge of door and forward edge of window). The fracture that failed to bending might fit in that kind of break up.
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« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 06:12:11 PM by Greg Daspit »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2014, 06:15:37 PM »

A hard landing on the reef could have initiated the failure of the patch if it had been a structurally weak area.

Yes, and/or the weak area could have cracked the window on hard landing in Miami.

It's likely an overall weak point, with the door location on the other side. Surf action could split the fuselage at a point between the two openings(aft edge of door and forward edge of window). The fracture that failed to bending might fit in that kind of break up.

The first failure seems to have been the lateral tearing along the row of #5 rivets. I wonder if that fits with the fuselage breaking at this weak point.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2014, 06:23:16 PM »

A hard landing on the reef could have initiated the failure of the patch if it had been a structurally weak area.

Yes, and/or the weak area could have cracked the window on hard landing in Miami.

It's likely an overall weak point, with the door location on the other side. Surf action could split the fuselage at a point between the two openings(aft edge of door and forward edge of window). The fracture that failed to bending might fit in that kind of break up.

The first failure seems to have been the lateral tearing along the row of #5 rivets. I wonder if that fits with the fuselage breaking at this weak point.
first tear example
Possibly between window frame and stringer?
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Greg Daspit

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2014, 06:31:57 PM »

Does the plexiglass artifact's curve fit that window or some other window?
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« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 06:38:11 PM by Greg Daspit »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2014, 06:37:21 PM »

Does the plexiglass artifact's curve fit that window or some other window?

It fits the standard cabin window (Earhart's Electra had two).  We do not have an engineering drawing for the special window in the door or the lav window.  Drawings must have existed but they have apparently been lost.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2014, 06:51:38 PM »

Does the plexiglass artifact's curve fit that window or some other window?

It fits the standard cabin window (Earhart's Electra had two).  We do not have an engineering drawing for the special window in the door or the lav window.  Drawings must have existed but they have apparently been lost.
If it is from that location, based on the shank of the revit found in it, 2-2-V-1 likely was fastened into a stringer, so the plexi was likely removed. I wonder if they also removed the window framing as well and replaced it with another stringer. So many questions. It would be great if that part of the plane could be found in the next expedition.

Is there a detail for the cabin window in the available drawings?
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« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 06:56:45 PM by Greg Daspit »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2014, 08:00:57 PM »

Is there a detail for the cabin window in the available drawings?

Yes, but the standard cabin windows are nothing like the special lav window.  There aren't even any photos that show the lav window exterior. Forget interior.
As far as I know, AE never mentioned it in her book or in interviews before the first world flight attempt. Earhart researchers assumed it was a removable hatch because it's there in some photos but not in others. That's why Finch's airplane has a removable hatch.
I was the one ( thumbs proudly under suspenders) who noticed that it is clearly a window, not an opening, and that it was always present in photos taken immediately prior to and during the first attempt and never present after the plane left Miami. The patch is shiny in Miami and gets progressively duller as the second attempt progresses. Once you have the photos accurately dated and sequenced it's a no-brainer.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2014, 04:36:07 PM »

There is not a lot of skin above the window in the vertical surface to resist bending of the fuselage.
The size of the window is a rough estimate from looking at pictures, and I am eagerly awaiting more information of the next inspection, but what is interesting is how close 2-2-V-1 may fit into the opening of where the window was. Assuming they put double row of rivets around the entire patch and the framing of the window protected the edges from a wave then I could imagine that a wave could punch out the skin thru the old opening of the window and leave some of the more heavily fastened edges.

Attached is a speculation for the first tear. The sketch may be a bit of exaggeration of the bending of the fuselage. Or not.
The plane may have to break there so a wave could get at the inside.
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« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 08:43:54 AM by Greg Daspit »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2014, 05:02:18 PM »

The concept of the weakened fuselage due to the door and the window is an interesting one.  Landings at that time were almost always three-point, full stall landings. There is movie film of AE landing the Electra that way.  The hard landing at Miami probably involved stalling the airplane several feet in the air and dropping it onto to runway in three-point attitude. I've done that in a Stearman and it sounds like somebody pushed a metal trash can off a roof - and it feels like you're in the can.
Seems like landing like that would but tremendous strain on the empennage.  The aluminum would flex a bit.  The glass or plexi in that big window wouldn't.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2014, 07:26:33 PM »

OK, maybe this is out of line, but ... I dug out my copy of the Harney renderings, blew a ton of dust off the top and started flipping through them. The plate that has the view of the starboard side (top of page) and underside (bottom of page) jumped out at me.

In the middle of the fuselage, just forward of the small starboard side window, is a dotted line labeled "Emergency Escape Hatch Cover Skinned Over."

True, this says skinned over, as opposed to a patch, but ... it's just a little larger than the patch over the starboard window that was added at Miami.

LTM, who will go back to counting all the teensy rivets,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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Ted G Campbell

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2014, 07:38:26 PM »

Marty,

You may have just stumbled on something important.  FN had only one way out and that would have been the main cabin door.  Going forward to the cockpit would not have been a great plan in the event of an accident.

AE on the other hand had the top hatch and side windows if necessary.

However, if that "patch"was securely riveted in place a quick exit would be doubtful.

Ted
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2014, 07:40:24 PM »

True, c/n1055 did not have the passenger emergency exit that was standard on the airline version, but I think Harney was wrong about it being "skinned over" unless he meant that it was never there.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2014, 06:23:55 AM »

So, if the "passenger emergency exit" was standard on the Electra, we need to remember that Amelia's Electra was not standard. The two possibilities for dealing with the passenger emergency exit, as I see it, are:

1) It was not included at the outset of the construction of her Electra. If so, wouldn't there have to be some kind of drawing or notation or something on how to skin over that rather large opening hwile the aircraft was on the factory floor?

2) The passenger emergency exit was skinned over or otherwise covered during the construction process. That might account for both a) The orderly and evenly spaced lines of No. 3 rivets on the 1-inch pitch, because they could be drilled on some kind of jig on the factory floor, and b) The irregular line of heavier rivets along one edge, since it was a non-standard, one-off modification specifically for Amelia that was probably installed on the fly while the aircraft was still in the construction jig.

If the Windsor Locks Electra had the passenger emergency exit installed when it was built, we might be able to quickly qualify, or disqualify, 2-V-1-1, by going to that same area on the starboard fuselage of the Windsor Locks Electra.

LTM, who still finds paint more fascinating than rivets,
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Greg Daspit

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2014, 08:04:34 AM »

I saw a picture of the plane under construction and the passenger exit was not there (Can't find where the picture is right now). The special window was not there at that time either.

Here are some links to pictures of that area though. You should be able to see the rivet pattern enough.
Purdue 1

Purdue 2
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« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 08:06:12 AM by Greg Daspit »
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Tim Collins

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2014, 09:22:50 AM »

Note in your Purdue 2 picture the rivet pattern - the extra horizontal rows of rivets to the right of the window.  Any reason not to think that a similar arrangement would be done to a larger area being covered, like covering over an unwanted window? 
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