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Author Topic: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time  (Read 78208 times)

Chris Johnson

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2013, 05:29:26 AM »

I woundered if the scratch marks ended before the break suggesting that they were made after the item was broken.  If they carry on upto the break then I would suppose they were made before.  If that makes sense.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2013, 06:20:15 AM »

Hmmm ... if the scratches were on the outside of the base, I could see a case for some type of coral abrasion. I don't have the specific hardnesses for glass and South Pacific coral memorized, but that sounds at least plausible to me.

Scratches inside the base, however ... if the glass was exposed to fire, that might make its surface soft enough to be scratched by a pocket knife, say. Or abraded by a fish bone. They look more like "scuff" marks as opposed to scratches to me, but that is in the eye of the beholder.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Chris Johnson

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2013, 12:50:37 PM »

What would be so important that you would need to scrape hard enough inside to damage the glass?
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Lisa Grinnell

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2013, 09:09:07 PM »

Hi Joe, Are the scratches you refer to the wide milky-color swaths with some distinctly parallel lines? Would you mind posting the picture again and circling the scratches? If I am seeing clearly what you mean, these remind me more of etching rather than scratching. But I want to be sure I am seeing what you refer to, as the arrows are only at the top of the photo, and these milky colored scrapes cover most of the (inside?) of the shard's bottom. Thanks, Lisa
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2013, 05:36:33 AM »

Hi Lisa,
I would describe them as distinctly parallel lines, radiating, in most cases, from the concavity of the circle that is formed at its interior edge, to the center.  I can come back and circle them if need be, but they cover a significant portion of the interior base of this particular shard.  I imagine them, perhaps incorrectly, as having been "scraped" from edge to center.  Here are some better photos.  You can ignore the arrows in the first photo.  They refer to a faint whitish haze we interpreted as remnants of the jar's original contents, which we discuss in our paper.  We ignored the lines in the paper because we simply couldn't agree on what they were or might signify, although we have opinions.

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 05:40:51 AM by Joe Cerniglia »
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2013, 05:42:43 AM »

What would be so important that you would need to scrape hard enough inside to damage the glass?
Another excellent question.  Think of all the phases of the jar's life cycle.  At each of those points, when would a scratch be liable to be made?

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2013, 05:48:23 AM »

Hmmm ... if the scratches were on the outside of the base, I could see a case for some type of coral abrasion. I don't have the specific hardnesses for glass and South Pacific coral memorized, but that sounds at least plausible to me.

Scratches inside the base, however ... if the glass was exposed to fire, that might make its surface soft enough to be scratched by a pocket knife, say. Or abraded by a fish bone. They look more like "scuff" marks as opposed to scratches to me, but that is in the eye of the beholder.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

Post-depositional wear is considered by our bottle guru and co-author, Bill Lockhart, to be a likely source.  My first thought was, exactly as you imply, some type of use wear by a castaway or a finder.  Why would a castaway or finder feel inclined, if he/she felt inclined, to make those scratches? 

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR 3078ECR
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2013, 06:00:04 AM »

I woundered if the scratch marks ended before the break suggesting that they were made after the item was broken.  If they carry on up to the break then I would suppose they were made before.  If that makes sense.

This is an excellent question.  I'm not certain, however, whether examining the other shards would answer the question of whether they were made before or after deposition.  It might.  Our bottle expert believes that similar scratches on other shards could indicate a post-depositional wear pattern.  He also stated that if the same scratches occur only on the insides of different shard pieces, not the outsides, then the idea also needs further consideration.

I don't know how the other shards look and have not photographed them in any type of detail.  This is something Ric can do when he gets a spare moment, but meanwhile the discussion is interesting.  Let it continue.

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 06:26:22 AM by Joe Cerniglia »
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2013, 06:05:56 AM »

So far, BTW, the group has generated 2 of the 4 reasons for the abrasions that our group hypothesized: Castaway, and post-depositional wear. Both of these are marks that can occur after the fragment reached the island.  There are 2 other reasons we thought about for why the marks can occur before the fragment reached the island.  Anyone care to take a crack at these?  (Pun not intended.)

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 06:08:38 AM by Joe Cerniglia »
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Chris Johnson

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2013, 06:17:44 AM »

Some form of cleaning cycle if the bottle is re used though it dosn't fit my recolection of the wear associated with re used 'coke' bottles.
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2013, 06:29:31 AM »

Some form of cleaning cycle if the bottle is re used though it dosn't fit my recolection of the wear associated with re used 'coke' bottles.
I hadn't thought of a cleaning cycle.  Interesting idea.  Cleaning could occur after it reached the island too, but why?  The idea of re-use is also interesting.  Why would the jar be re-used?  Would it be re-used for different purposes or the same purpose as its original use?

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 06:35:52 AM by Joe Cerniglia »
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John Ousterhout

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2013, 07:01:56 AM »

Some random thoughts:
1)      Other sources of mercury would include a broken thermometer, or mercury for an artificial horizon, or gun cartridge primers, or gun cleaning materials.  The procedure for cleaning the British .303 Enfield requires pouring boiling hot water down the barrel, washing out the dissolved residue, for example.  That was followed by swabbing with oiling by pulling a swab through.  I would expect the resulting mercury compound to be distinctly different from that found in freckle cream.

2)      Scratches on the interior bottom might be from a knife used to scrape out contents (think of your experience with peanut butter).  That implies that the material was important, and that it didn't "pour".  Another idea, built on item 1) is use of a jar to hold the oily cleaning lanyard and metal jag used for oiling a gun after cleaning.  The metal jag or swab might scratch the glass.

3)      White glass looks “medicinal” and pure, giving an impression of sanitary cleanliness.  Clear glass shows off the contents, to appeal to potential buyers.  What sort of thing would be easier to sell by appearance in a glass jar?  Food items obviously (olives, cocktail onions, baby food), but non-food items as well.  What is the color or appearance of freckle cream?  Clear glass also shows the quantity of the contents.  Is that a clue?

4)      A high refraction index does not by itself protect from UV.  However, high index glass is eye-catching, which is another marketing aspect that gives a clue to the type of contents.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Chris Johnson

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2013, 07:22:10 AM »

Quote
2)      Scratches on the interior bottom might be from a knife used to scrape out contents (think of your experience with peanut butter).

I was thinking stored/cooked foodstuff such as crab meat that had been stored in the jar and then scraped out with a sharp object such as a knife.
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2013, 10:25:05 AM »

We ignored the lines in the paper because we simply couldn't agree on what they were or might signify, although we have opinions.

Joe, the lines that I see in the glass remind me of "stress fractures" that I have seen in metal aircraft parts that failed during use. Is it possible that a very thin layer of glass separated from the glass bottom of the jar when it was broken ie. a "stress fracture" in the bottom of the jar?
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Doug Giese

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2013, 10:59:27 AM »

I'm certainly no glass expert but here's my opinion.

I can't see how these 'scratches' could have been made post-manufacturing.

There are two features annotated on the attachment. Imagine trying to scratch these into glass.

1. The scratches go over the sharp edge of a chip then down the side of the chip in a continuous path. I would expect the tool to 'jump' at the edge of the chip.

2. (Zoom In) These small 'scratches' are almost exactly parallel. It's really hard to image even a specialized tool to create such uniform marks. In addition, there are no microchips visible. Every time I've tried to scratch glass the edges had many micropits.

Overall, these marks appear to be way too uniform to be made by a survivor using a hand tool.

So, my uneducated guess is that something in the manufacturing process caused them. Maybe while cooling?
------
Doug
 
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