Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:10:31 From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Bill Kurtis on Niku? OK. So let's contact AT&T's ad agency and see if they -- and/or AT&T -- want to join the hunt, after we thank them for the free exposure, of course. However, knowing Ric, I'm sure he has already tried to ride that horse. LTM, who rooted for Big Brown Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 15:42:45 From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: AE commercial Diamondhead I found the following information in a post to another message board from a Mr. Taigh Ramey of Vintage Aircraft in Stockton, CA.... "On Thursday afternoon right before the Memorial Day weekend I received a call from a production company who needed an Amelia Earhart lookalike aircraft for an upcoming AT&T commercial. The guy needed it on a beach in Hawaii real soon. I told him we could supply a Beech 18 which could be dummied up to look like her Lockheed. He wanted a plane that looked like it had been sitting out on the beach for 70 years so we sand blasted it to remove the paint and give the metal the weathered look he was after. The Beech was delivered early Tuesday and I understand that they loaded it on a cargo aircraft and flew it to Hawaii that night. The figure I heard for the airfreight was astounding." It would seem that the Forum sees all, knows all (or at least takes a pretty good guess at all). LTM, Russ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:39:06 From: Peter Boor Subject: Re: AE commercial, Diamondhead Incredible. Don't we wish that AT&T might pony up a donation to TIGHAR? Something useful? pmb. ************************* Yeah..... in our dreams. Maybe a cable ship to support Niku VI? P ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 07:08:29 From: Suzanne Astorino Subject: Re: AE commercial Diamondhead For photos of the "before" look of the plane, and more story content, scroll halfway down this page: http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php? p=215651&sid=38ea463e6066ac7ae6cff09ac9849710 or, in case of URL break up: http://tinyurl.com/5krhp4 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:49:30 From: Rick Metzger Subject: Re: AE commercial Diamondhead Every bird has its day.... LTM Rick Metzger Lyon Investigations, Inc. >From Suzanne Astorino: > >For photos of the "before" look of the plane, ... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:56:28 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Happy Amelia Day Happy Amelia Day everybody! The online magazine "Wired" honored the day with a rehash of the accepted wisdom. http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/07/dayintech_0702 I responded with a letter to the editor: Although generally accurate, your recap the Earhart disappearance includes some factual errors. Some are trivial. Some are not. The faint 08:43 message you quote at the beginning of the article was received at 07:42 and was very strong, but that's not important. The cause of the radio problems Earhart experienced are well documented and were not due to a malfunction of the direction finder, but that's neither here nor there. A more serious error is your statement that: "Nevertheless, various stations around the Pacific reported receiving unidentified signals, leading to the hope that Earhart and Noonan had somehow managed to find land somewhere. None of these reports amounted to anything." In fact, distress calls from the lost plane drove much of the U.S. Government rescue effort and it was only after the search failed that the messages were assumed to have been hoaxes. Recent re-examination and computer modeling of the reported signals has confirmed that many were undoubtedly genuine. It is also well documented that the airplane could not transmit if afloat on the ocean. Your conclusion that: "The likeliest explanation for what became of Earhart and Noonan is the logical one: They ran out of fuel, ditched at sea and drowned." is no longer the most logical nor the most likely. There has been genuine progress is solving what you quite rightly call "the most tantalizing unsolved mystery in aviation history." The theory that Earhart and Noonan were captured by the Japanese has finally taken it's rightful place in the dustbin of history. It is also now clear that they did not go down at sea. The Navy's original suspicion that plane landed on an island was correct. A growing body of documentary and forensic evidence suggests that the island was Nikumaroro (formerly Gardner Island), where a Navy aerial search in 1937 saw unexplained "signs of recent habitation" and where the bones of a female castaway were discovered three years later. The long-sought answer to the Earhart mystery may finally be coming to light. For more on the 20-year, science-based investigation by The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery (TIGHAR) visit www.tighar.org Ric Gillespie Executive Director TIGHAR Author of "Finding Amelia - The True Story of the Earhart Disappearance" (Naval Institute Press, 2006) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:01:59 From: Tom Doran Subject: Re: AE commercial Diamondhead From the "Warbird Information Exchange" <> Sounds lke a plan to me. Let's organize a tax-deductible expedition to search for AE around Waikiki. Tom Doran #2796 ***************************** I think we might have a little trouble getting that one past the IRS rule about "No significant element of personal enjoyment." Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:33:43 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: The National Geo Sulk Funny story. If you go to National Geographic's Map of the Day at http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/map/map-day you'll see a map of Howland Island a nice little blurb about Nikumaroro that sounds like it was written by TIGHAR although there is no mention of TIGHAR. Odd, you say? Here's the back story. A couple weeks ago Nat'l Geo contacted us wanting to use our map of Niku showing possible Earhart related evidence (http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/maps/Nikumap.html) for their July 2nd Map of the Day. I replied that we'd be happy to let them use the map but I would need to approve the text that would accompany it. They agreed. On Monday (two days before the map was to run) they sent the proposed copy. Although reportedly fact-checked by three people, it was riddled with factual errors, not to mention being very poorly written. I replied saying we could not possibly approve the text. I corrected the factual errors (providing sources, of course) and rewrote the text for them in the English language. They did not reply, they did not use my rewrite, and they did not use our map. They did correct many of the errors but the bit about what has been found on Nikumaroro is still misleading. Bottom line: This is sort of like the AT&T commercial. Okay, so she landed on Nikumaroro. Just don't mention TIGHAR. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:17:31 From: Pat Thrasher Subject: A book on offer from TIGHAR TIGHAR has 16 copies, brand new, of _Electra Flying_ by Richard Waugh and David Phillips. This book is a history of the Lockheed Electra in New Zealand. Here's the blurb from the back: "Lockheed 10 Electras in 1937 pioneered the first Auckland - Wellington air service. By late 1930 Union Airways had "Electra-fied" the whole Main Trunk route from Auckland to Dunedin. This book tells the story and adventures of how the revolutionised commercial aviation in New Zealand with their modern American design and speed -- faster than any Air Force aircraft! "Electras were the first all metal monoplane airliners in New Zealand and during most of the war years were the only aircraft maintaining the Main Trunk air service. Electras inaugurated air services to Auckland, Christchurch (Harewood), Hamilton, Invercargill, Kaikohe, Kaitaia, New Plymouth, Rotorua, and Whangarei. They had their share of accidents and tragedies, but these were mostly the result of the pioneering era in which they flew. "Illustrated by many rare photographs, this story describes the development of Main Trunk air services through to the jet age. It emphasises the tremendous contribution the air service has made to the New Zealand communication network." The photos are truly amazing and the anecdotes hair-raising. We are offering these books at $50 for TIGHAR members, $60 for non-members. You can go to the TIGHAR website to order: https://www.tighar.org/TIGHAR_Store/order.html Or you can call us, or send us a check. Remember, only 16 are available, by special arrangement. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:46:53 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Hawkes Falcoln If you check USA Today current issue the front page has a piece about Hawkes Falcoln submersible. It is capable of cruising under water to depths of 36,000 feet says the inventor. It's only 1.7 million dollars. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:06:06 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Hawkes Falcoln In a message dated 7/2/2008 4:51:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Alan Caldwell writes: >It's only 1.7 million dollars. Sounds like a great Amelia Day present for TIGHAR, Alan; go for it! LTM (who loves to submerge) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 07:52:58 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Hawkes Falcoln I'll drive it if someone will buy it. It functions like a plane. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:56:36 From: Rick Jones Subject: WWII B-25 photos When I visited the web site in Tom Doran's post (Warbird Information Exchange) I also viewed some newly posted photos of a Marine PBJ (B-25) unit (VMB 433) that evidently were brought back from the war by an aerial photographer. This Marine unit was stationed on Emirau Is. (North of New Britain). There are some great shots to get you into the 4th of July spirit. Sorry to be off topic, but I know most of you will enjoy seeing these photos, some of which have been published, and some appear to be "out-takes". Be sure to see the scrapped airframe photos in the later posts--it will make you cry. or http://tinyurl.com/57vnjd Have a Good 4th Rick J #2751 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:57:02 From: Marcus Lind Subject: Happy 4th of July To all US Members of the TIGHAR Forum - kind regards and best wishes for July 4th! Have a great US Independence Day celebration ! LTM - sincerely, Marcus Lind ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 12:03:06 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: The Forum Challenge Select GIS Services of North Hampton, MA sponsors this forum and has issued a challenge. Select GIS Services will match, dollar for dollar, up to $1,000, contributions from the Earhart Forum toward the analysis of artifacts and materials recovered during the Niku V expedition. Laboratory testing is expensive. For example, a single FTIR sampling of the red cake-like material recovered from the Seven Site coasts $350. A single sampling of known 1930s cosmetic for comparison costs another $350. But you also need XRF analysis of each sample, so that's another $300 each. Et cetera. (See below for descriptions of what the heck FTIR and XRF are.) While the Crashed & Sankers are speculating about fuel consumption and the Japanese Capture Crowd are playing with pictures of Irene Bolam, TIGHAR is doing hard science to get real answers about physical objects that may relate directly to Amelia Earhart. But hard science takes hard cash. If you help TIGHAR get those answers, Select GIS Services will double your money. Go to the TIGHAR website at https://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/NikuV/NikuVdonation.html to make your contribution by credit card or PayPal. You can also send a check, or phone in your credit card information to 302-994-4410, or fax it to 302-994-7945. I'll report on the forum's progress in meeting the challenge and on the latest results of the lab work. We'll also welcome and recognize other forum subscribers who, as individuals or businesses, wish to add to the challenge. The Earhart Forum can be more than a discussion group. If everyone does what they can, large or small, the Forum can make possible the scientific analysis of the material we worked so hard to find. What do you say Earhart Forum? Will you do that? Love to Mother, Ric (Oh yeah. FTIR is Fourier Transform Infrared spectroscopy. Wikepedia describes FTIR as a measurement technique whereby spectra are collected based on measurements of the temporal coherence of a radiative source, using time-domain measurements of the electromagnetic radiation or other type of radiation. XRF is X-Ray Fluorescence. XRF is the emission of characteristic "secondary" (or fluorescent) X-rays from a material that has been excited by bombarding with high-energy X-rays or gamma rays. The phenomenon is widely used for elemental analysis and chemical analysis, particularly in the investigation of metals, glass, ceramics and building materials, and for research in geochemistry, forensic science and archaeology. Don't feel bad. I don't understand it either. Both techniques are ways of finding out what stuff is made of.) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 20:18:46 From: George Werth Subject: Red River Dave Slightly Off Topic Go to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgJo2JnBYqU for a video of the song, "Amelia EARHART's Last Flight (1937)." Question for Pat and/or Ric: Does '98oilk', by any chance, have any affiliation with TIGHAR? George Rat Werth TIGHAR Member # 2630 LTM, who wonders why it was an 82 year OLD GEEZER that brought this matter before the forum! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:14:01 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Red River Dave George Rat Werth wrote: >Question for Pat and/or Ric: >Does '98oilk', by any chance, have any affiliation >with TIGHAR? Not that we know of. Of course we're familiar with the Red River Dave song. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:39:18 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: New Evidence Soon to be posted on the TIGHAR website is a report by Dr. Sharyn Jones of the Department of Anthropology at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. Dr. Jones is a specialist in Pacific Island cultures. We asked her to look at the bones we recovered last year from three "fire features" (places where someone had once built a small fire) at the Seven Site on Nikumaroro. We wanted to know if the 1,401 bird, fish and turtle bones we brought back were typical of Polynesian picnics or might be more attributable to a castaway who didn't know the neighborhood. After looking at the collection she wrote, "I have never seen an assemblage of fish from Pacific Islanders that looks like this- all broken up and burned (clearly on open fires). This includes material I have analyzed from Palau, Guam, Rota, Hawaii, Fiji, etc..." Her report is fascinating and breaks down the various fish by species, minimum number of individuals, size and apparent biomass. She concludes, " The patterns observed in the Seven Site fauna is unusual in my experiences analyzing assemblages created by Pacific Islanders. Based on the condition and frequency of the faunal remains from the Seven Site I agree with the interpretation of this site as an encampment and one that was likely created by castaways who were not Pacific Islanders." Her conclusion is, of course, entirely consistent with the features Gallagher reported finding in 1940 and with the results of the analysis we've been doing of the artifacts recovered at the site (bottles, jack knife, zipper, etc.). So far we've had no response to GIS Select Services' challenge grant. That's disappointing. To sweeten the pot, everyone who contributes at least $25 will get one of the new Earhart Project Supporter stickers. These are 4"x4" vinyl stickers with the Earhart Project logo and the word Supporter. They're reverse-printed so that they go in the INSIDE of a glass surface (car, home, or office window) and are, therefore, not exposed to the elements. They're adhesive-free and stick by static electricity so they're removable and won't leave a nasty residue. These stickers just arrived and we haven't had a chance to advertise them on the TIGHAR website yet. We also have stickers to acknowledge contributions to the Devastator and Maid of Harlech projects. In addition, every TIGHAR member will get a free 2"x4" sticker with the TIGHAR logo with the next issue of TIGHAR Tracks. We're doing the work, but we need your support. Please go to https://.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/NikuV/NikuVdonation.html Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 17:35:46 From: Craig Fuller Subject: Re: New Evidence Put me down for $25.00. Using the scientific method to research and solve aviation mysteries is why I joined and choose to support TIGHAR (as well as preserving aviation history using established conventional curation practices). I will send Pat my CC number. Craig Fuller AAIR Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research www.AviationArchaeology.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:52:22 From: Pat Thrasher Subject: Faunals report up I've put up the report on faunals from the Seven Site: http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/NikuV/Analysis_and_Reports/ Faunals/NikuVanalysisfaunals.html or http://tinyurl.com/5ju2qw I'll be adding a page or two of illustrations of the various fishes but the information is all there. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:01:33 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Faunals report up Note that the report is only on fishy (and turtlish) fauna. Bird bones are in analysis at the Florida State museum. LTM (who thinks we should all be in analysis) >From Pat > >I've put up the report on faunals from the Seven Site: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:21:41 From: From Ric Subject: New Post-Loss Message A TIGHAR member recently sent us a clipping of an article that appeared in the June 29, 2008 edition of the Toronto Star. Prompted by filming in Toronto for the coming Hilary Swank/Richard Gere film "Amelia", the article mentioned that, back in 1937, the Star carried stories about Torontians who claimed to have heard radio transmissions from Earhart after she disappeared. The article began: ****************************************** "Are you all right?" "Hold on to this line." "D'you think they got our SOS?" These words, barely distinguishable amid the static crackling of Mrs. Ernest Crabb's powerful, 20-tube radio set in her east Toronto residence on July 5, 1937, were possibly the last words from Amelia Earhart to reach the city she once called home." ********************* You can read the entire article at http://www.thestar.com/article/451270 We have collected and evaluated nearly two hundred such reports from all over but this was the first we'd heard of reports from Toronto. What really got my attention was that what Mrs. Crabb heard sounded awfully familiar. I immediately alerted the Earhart Project Advisory Council and within a few hours we had the full text of the Toronto Star articles from 1937. There were two people who reported suspicious receptions. On July 7 a man who declined to be identified said that he heard the voice of a woman he believed to be Amelia Earhart on 3105 kilocycles. The report is not credible. there is simply no way that a signal from Earhart's transmitter could be heard in Toronto on 3105 KHz. Also, we ("we" being Bob Brandenburg) has calculated the fuel needed to run an engine periodically to recharge the batteries sufficient to make the calls that he and I agree are credible based on a variety of criteria. The bottom line is that for Earhart to have landed with enough fuel to keep making transmissions past Monday, July 5, she would have had to achieve a level of fuel economy during the flight that is unrealistic. If she was fat enough when she reached Niku to still be transmitting on July 8, she could have turned around and flown back to Howland. Mrs. Crabb's account is more interesting. There were two articles, both on July 5, 1937. The first appeared in the Toronto Star and the second, shorter article appeared in the Toronto Daily Star 2nd edition. ************************************ AMELIA'S FRANTIC SOS HEARD HERE AT 1 P. M. Conversation Between Aviatrix and Noonan Reach Here Faintly. "D'you think they got our SOS?" These words, barely distinguishable, were heard by Mrs. Ernest Crabb, Ashdale Avenue, over her powerful 20-tube radio set, calibrated to 19 cycles, shortly before one o'clock this afternoon. They further convinced here that she was listening to Amelia Earhart and Captain Fred Noonan, lost somewhere in the Pacific Ocean. Since 11 o'clock Sunday morning Mrs. Crabb has been listening to a conversation between a man and a woman, muffled and indistinct, but containing such phrases as: "Are you all right?" "Hold on to this line." "D'you think they got our SOS?" She is convinced she is listening to Miss Earhart and Noonan, whose last message about three hours earlier to United States naval officials at Honolulu indicated in garbled form her aeroplane was sinking. On Mrs. Crabb's set are heard such expressions as, "Oh. Oh. Oh!" a woman's high-pitched voice, apparently in terror, and sounds resembling the wash and sucking of waves. Occasionally there is a sharp staccato sound, as of an SOS, and again the sound of a man's and woman's voice talking, and talking, a few words distinguishable. Once a few sentences that seemed to be Japanese broke in. It was thought possible there might be would-be rescuers, seeking to locate the aeroplane. *********************************************************** TORONTO WOMAN SURE SHE HEARD AMELIA EARHART CALLING FOR AID Mrs. Ernest Crabb, Ashdale Ave., is positive she heard an SOS shortwave wireless signal from the two lost fliers Amelia Earhart Putnam and Capt. Fred Noonan, her navigator, at 11 o'clock yesterday morning. Mrs. Crabb owns a powerful 20-tube radio set capable of receiving distant long and shortwave broadcasts. "I wasn't expecting to hear from them," said Mrs. Crabb, "but I just happened to tune in at one end of the short-wave dial where the set is calibrated at 19 kilocycles when I heard a woman's and a man's muffled voices. "The first words I actually got were 'San Francisco.' The woman's voice was high-pitched and she sounded as though she were excited. Her voice was pent-up with emotion. Both voices were very muffled and I could not get what they were saying. I am sure I heard the billowing of waves. "I'm sure it was them; they sounded as though they were trying to get through to someone for help. I heard the same two voices at intervals during the day. I wish I knew what Miss Earhart's voice sounded like, I could tell definitely then, but I'm positive it was," she said. ******************************************************************* There are two things that I find extraordinary about Mrs. Crabb's account. 1.) The phrases quoted are not distress calls. They are questions and an instruction directed to a third party. You could insert the sentences into Betty's Notebook and they would fit seamlessly. In two places in her notebook Betty records that Amelia said "SOS"; there is an entry "Are you..." and on a later page "all right." "Hold on to this line" sounds like the short commands Betty heard, "Here put your ear to it..." and "Come here just a moment..." and "Watch that battery.." Mrs. Crabb reportedly heard such expressions as, "Oh. Oh. Oh!" a woman's high-pitched voice, apparently in terror. Betty's Notebook contains an entry, "Oh oh (crying now)." Betty was struck by the anguish and fear in Earhart's voice. The main Coast Guard radio station in "San Francisco" is where George Putnam was during the search. 2.) Mrs. Crabb heard Amelia on Monday, July 5, 1937 - the day we think Betty heard Amelia. If the time was reported accurately, Mrs. Crabb did not hear the same transmission Betty heard. Mrs. Crabb heard "a conversation between a man and a woman" for a period of roughly two hours, from 11:00 to 13:00 Eastern Time (16:00 to 18:00Z. 05:00 to 07:00 on Niku). Betty heard a similar conversation between a man and a woman for a similar period from 16:30 to 18:15 Eastern Time ( 21:30 to 23:15Z. 10:30 to 12:15 on Niku). Like Betty, Mrs. Crabb found much of the transmission barely distinguishable. The statement in the article that Earhart's "last message about three hours earlier to United States naval officials at Honolulu indicated in garbled form her aeroplane was sinking." is a reference to the fabled "281" message heard by Navy Radio Wailupe from 11:30 to 12:30Z. The fragmentary phrases, "above water" and "shut off" at the end of that transmission were interpreted by some to mean that the plane was sinking. That interpretation was incorrect. The plane could not transmit at all if it was afloat. Mrs. Crabb heard sounds resembling the wash and sucking of waves. According to Bob Brandenburg's calculations, the tide at Niku was high during that period with roughly a meter of water on the reef, plus whatever surf was running. The transmission would have to have been made on battery power alone. The statement in the first article that her radio was calibrated to 19 cycles makes no sense. In the second article, the frequency is 19 kilocycles. That doesn't make any sense either. However two of the harmonics of 3105 KHz (18630 and 21735 KhZ) are close to 1900 Khz which is characteristically "at one end of the short-wave dial." That Mrs. Crabb might also have picked up fragments from a Japanese commercial station in that frequency range is not surprising. Pending further investigation, Mrs. Crabb's account goes in the "Credible" column of post-loss radio reports. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:22:26 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Faith restored My faith in the forum is restored. A number of subscribers (you know who you are) have responded to the $1,000 Select GIS Services matching grant challenge with contributions totaling $750. THANK YOU! Just $250 more to go. Who will step forward to put us over the top? Again, the website address for contributions toward the Select GIS Services challenge is https://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/NikuV/NikuVdonation.html If anyone encounters difficulty making a donation via the website please let Pat know (tigharpat@mac.com) so that we can fix any glitches in the system. The new Earhart Project Supporter stickers will be sent out on Monday. Love to Mother, ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:09:26 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New Post-Loss Message Perhaps i am the only one who has some reservations imagining how an aircraft radio transmitter, with an attached handheld carbon microphone, (or as once suggested, each using their own microphone ) could pick up a conversation between these two, as well as sounds of the ocean. It will be beyond wonderful if true. For right now, i have to file it under "Too Good To Be True". Why not run that by someone who was in a cockpit on WW2 ? -Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 19:09:41 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: New Post-Loss Message Hue, I may be well off base but having been a pilot since 1955 I know a cockpit transmission can pick up a lot of other sounds. For example, a student pilot's gear horn when he forgot to put the gear down. Not me BTW. Will this scenario work? The plane is on the ground at wherever and both are in the cockpit. Earhart and Noonan are only inches apart and she is transmitting, They can also be talking to each other in the cockpit and the mike will pick up both of them as well as outside sounds. Noonan does not have to be talking into a separate mike. The cockpit would be open because of the heat and on the reef why would they not hear surf sounds? At least once a transmission was noted as not hearing engine sounds. I've long suspected we have over played the absolute necessity that the engine ALWAYS had to be cranked up to use the radio for a quicky call. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 19:15:59 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New Post-Loss Message Hue Miller asks, >Why not run that by someone who was in a cockpit on WW2 ? Because this didn't happen during WWII. How much did microphone technology change between 1937 and 1942? I don't know. I also don't know what kind of microphone was in NR16020 on July 5, 1937. I don't think anyone does. I do know that the Nauru radio operator heard "the hum of the plane in the background" in transmissions made during the flight. Granted, two R1340s at cruise power probably make a lot more noise than waves, but it's clear that Earhart's mic did pick up some background noise. There's also the point that what Mrs. Crabb thought was wave noise might have been something else. It's the nature of what she heard and it's similarity to what Betty heard that floored me. Either she and Betty heard Earhart or they heard the same hoaxer on separate occasions three and a half hours apart. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:46:00 From: Jim Preston Subject: Re: New Post-Loss Message Alan you have a point. I have been flying since 1965 and the best example is the SA-16 Anphib. Snyone who has talked to one knows the engine noise in the background ALWAYS. Jim Preston Af Pilot 65-74 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 22:54:17 From: Kerry Tiller Subject: Re: New Post-Loss Message This is great. From the time Betty's note book first came to light two things have bothered me. First; if Betty heard these things (and I have always been sure she did), others must have heard them too. Second: unless the "others" came forward as Betty did, how would we know? Ric, I think it would be a worthwhile project for TIGHAR members to check their local newspapers for July 3, 4, 5, and 6, 1937 for any similar reports of local short wave listeners that may not have reached national attention. We now have one example of it; I bet there are others. News paper archives can be found at your local newspaper, the local library and/or the local historical society. One day of a few phone calls to locate an archive and an afternoon of reading a few days of newspapers might turn up more of the same. I'm thinking especially smaller towns and cities that would only have had two dailies or maybe even only a weekly. What do you think? Kerry Tiller ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:49:13 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New Post-loss message If their microphone worked that well, why did its manufacturer build it in a hand-held form? Why not just a microphone attached to the instrument panel? -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:49:36 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post-loss message >From Ric > >Hue Miller asks, > >>Why not run that by someone who was in a cockpit on WW2 ? > >Because this didn't happen during WWII. How much did microphone >technology change between 1937 and 1942? I don't know. I also don't >know what kind of microphone was in NR16020 on July 5, 1937. I don't >think anyone does. But we can narrow this down. It WAS a carbon (granule) microphone, similar to a telephone element (on old pre-electronic amplified) phones, but less sensitive. The technology did not greatly advance by 1941, i do not think. I was suggesting we find an old-time pilot and ask them what they think of this scenario. Actually, in the long-term, this particular question CAN be tested. This would take the identical transmitter and microphone types. I have the first item; took a long time to find it; maybe patience will turn up the second item. Another facet of this question, which we tossed around some years back, is why the microphone button was held "on" while the two conversed. So somehow this handheld microphone picked up substantially well both sides of the conversation, plus outside noises, this over a noisy shortwave radio path. -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:50:05 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New Post-loss message To summarize a recent question: the transmitter button is held down for periods extended over normal "push-to-talk" procedures, so that conversations are picked up; and in Betty's interview narrative, even sounds of the two "wrestling" were picked up. or somehow the microphone was damaged at an opportune time for it to misfunction in this way; microphone seems sensitive enuff to pick up their conversation, plus outside sounds, sounds of surf. ( Is there a recent or current pilot who will opine on your radio picking up not warning horns, but outside sounds? ) Ric at one time suggested they spoke to each other, each using their own microphone. If their microphone(s) were so sensitive without the plane in flight, what did their radio sound like with the engine running full-out? -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:50:37 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post-loss message Not addressed to me, really, BUT- researching thru myriad local newspapers is a task, i think, for an army of researchers with unlimited time and money. Of all of us, Ron Brightway seems to have done a great deal of work, in the area of newspaper searches. -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:13:59 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post-loss message Hue Miller writes, >Ric at one time suggested they spoke to each other, each >using their own microphone. To clarify, I don't think that's what happened. I think there was one mic involved. >If their microphone(s) were so sensitive without the plane in flight, >what did their radio sound like with the engine running full-out? Sensitive enough for the Nauru operator to be able to hear "the hum of the plane in flight." I've had off-forum emails from pilots saying that the old carbon mics were notorious for picking up background sounds. Do you have experience with old carbon aviation microphones? Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:05:44 From: Gary LaPook Subject: Re: Desalination in 1938 There were also emergency stills available during WW2 (I don't know if they were available in the '30s) which were inflatable plastic balls about 18 inches in diameter (like a small beach ball). They were made out of clear plastic with a black cloth on the bottom. You put sea water in it to saturate the black cloth. The sunlight heats the cloth causing the water to evaporate and the fresh water then condenses on the inside of the ball and runs down into a kind of gutter around the inside of the ball which then leads to a reservoir from which it was sucked out by a survivor on a life raft. >From William Webster-Garman >Tom, the picture I've seen of what I believe must have been solar >stills may have been from the New Zealand survey expedition. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:12:34 From: Gary LaPook Subject: Re: New post-loss message The experience I have with old carbon aircraft mics (much latter than the '30s) where of the noise cancelling type that have two elements, one on the back of the mic and one on the front. Any sounds coming into both sides of the mic were cancelled out so the voice, which came into only the front element, was clear. I don't know if this type was available in the '30s or if AE had a similar mic. Does anyone know? gl ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:31:03 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post-loss message Mrs. Crabb's experience was more complicated than I at first realized. The Toronto Star on Monday, July 5, said that the phrase "D'you think they got our SOS?" was heard "shortly before one o?clock this afternoon." That article later says, "Since 11 o?clock Sunday morning Mrs. Crabb has been listening to a conversation between a man and a woman, muffled and indistinct..." That's 11 o'clock SUNDAY morning, July 4! I originally misread that and thought that she was saying that she heard transmissions for about two hours, from 1100 to 1300 - but that's not at all what she was saying. The Toronto Daily Star on Monday, July 5, said that Mrs. Crabb "is positive she heard...Amelia Earhart Putnam and Capt. Fred Noonan, her navigator, at 11 o'clock yesterday morning." That article makes no mention of the phrases quoted in the other article. Here's my interpretation of what happened. Mrs. Crabb first began hearing the transmissions at 1100 Toronto time on Sunday, July 4. She "heard the same two voices at intervals during the day" but we don't know how many times or at what intervals or for how long. Some time that evening she notified the Toronto Daily Star which ran the story headlined "TORONTO WOMAN SURE SHE HEARD AMELIA EARHART CALLING FOR AID" in the morning paper. That article reports only what happened "yesterday." Shortly before 1300 Toronto Time on Monday, July 5, she heard them again for some unspecified amount of time. This is when she heard "D'you think they got our SOS?" and perhaps the other phrases "Are you all right?? and ?Hold on to this line." She called the newspaper to report that she had heard them again and the Toronto Star ran the story headlined "AMELIA'S FRANTIC SOS HEARD HERE AT 1 P. M." in the evening edition. So it seems that instead of a single two-hour session on July 5, she heard an unknown number of sessions of unknown duration between 1100 Sunday, July 4 and 1300 Monday, July 5. There were nearly two dozen credible reports of post-loss signals by other stations during that period. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:14:47 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: New post loss message I downloaded the article www.thestar.com/article/451270/ It is headlined "The City Amelia Loved", by Brett Popplewell, reporter dated June 29, 2008. No headline of "Amelia's Frantic SOS heard here at 1 PM" This article does not include all the details your indicated. following the first three sentences ( Are you all right, Hold on to the line, D'you think they got the SOS." The first paragraph ends with "...city she once called home". Although 3 pages, there is no further details as you described. A search of the Star didn't produce the article headlined 'TORONTO WOMAN SURE SHE HEARD AMELIA EARHART CALLING FOR AID". What am I doing wrong, as I can't seem to get the other article and those details. Bretts article does include that several other Torontonians reported hearing AE. Maybe those other articles in other edtions are no longer available on the Star. Or is the Toronto Daily Star, a different paper? Ron B. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:15:09 From: Tom King Subject: Re: New post-loss message I wonder if we can track down any of Mrs. Crabb's descendants. Seems like this kind of story would live on in family folklore, and somebody might have even written something down. LTM (who has a rich family folklore) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:23:45 From: Karen Hoy Subject: Re: Mrs. Crabb Her name was Gertrude Jane Poole: Ontario, Canada Marriages, 1857-1924 Ontario, Canada Marriages, 1857-1924 Name: Ernest Crabb Birth Place: Scotland Age: 43 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875 Father Name: Henry Crabb Mother Name: Mary Jane Pryme Crabb Spouse Name: Gertrude Jane Poole Spouse's Age: 34 Spouse Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884 Spouse Birth Place: England Spouse Father Name: Enoch Poole Spouse Mother Name: Emily Grant Marriage Date: 30 Jun 1918 Marriage Place: York Marriage County: York Family History Library Microfilm: MS932_444 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:24:10 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post-loss message Ron Bright asked: >What am I doing wrong, as I can't seem to get the other article and >those details. Those articles were retrieved by TIGHAR researchers Karen Hoy and Art Rypinski. As I understand it, you have to pay to get access to the Star archives. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:30:12 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post-loss message >I wonder if we can track down any of Mrs. Crabb's descendants. >Seems like this kind of story would live on in family folklore, and >somebody might have even written something down. Yeah, I've been wondering about that. Who knows? There could be another notebook out there. She was Mrs. Ernest Crabb and she lived on Ashdale Ave. Seems like we should be able to track down the family. Anybody want to give it a shot? Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:37:54 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: New post-loss message Gary LaPook wrote >The experience I have with old carbon aircraft mics (much latter >than the '30s) where of the noise cancelling type that have two >elements, one on the back of the mic and one on the front. Any >sounds coming into both sides of the mic were cancelled out so the >voice, which came into only the front element, was clear. I don't >know if this type was available in the '30s or if AE had a similar >mic. Does anyone know? This is the principle of cardiod microphones ("cardiod" because of the heart-shaped cancellation pattern). I've never run across a noise cancelling microphone which cancelled 100% of side and rear noise. Cancellation can be in a range anwhere from about 25% to 80% (the latter's a lot), since ambient reflections of noise can still slip by the cancelling effect. As for the wave sounds, the noise of surf is very much like white noise, as is static. "Rolling static" amplified from a 1930s era super-heterodyne receiver could easily have sounded like surf through the loudspeakers folks had back then. The throat microphones used by military pilots during the 1939-45 unhappiness didn't cancel noise, but rather in close proximity picked up physical vibrations directly off the throat (getting both the larynx and sound artifacts from the mouth transmitted through flesh and bone) then transduced them into something resembling audible speech. LTM, who heard a thing or two back in the day, ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:44:37 From: Karen Hoy Subject: Re: Mrs. Crabb Ancestry.com has a database of Canadian phone directories from 1995--2002. I found several dozen listings for the name "Crabb" in Toronto during that time. None lived on Ashdale Avenue. Karen Hoy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:00:03 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: New post loss message If your researchers post the entire archived content, which I guess you have, posted, no reason to pay for more. I would also suggest your researchers scan thru the Star news papers from 2 July to 5 July to see what kind of coverage was afforded AE's disappearance. Were other listeners identified? If so, how similar were the reports. Thanks, Ron . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:01:29 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: new post loss message >From Ric >I've had off-forum emails from pilots saying that the old carbon mics >were notorious for picking up background sounds. Do you have >experience with old carbon aviation microphones? Just from operating old WW2-era military radios. Those sets were mostly notorious for being undermodulated, meaning you had to speak loud and close, but it was more of a situation with lack of amplification in the set rather than some inherent limitation of the microphone. -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:01:47 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post loss message The Toronto Star on Monday, July 5, said that the phrase "D'you think they got our SOS?" was heard "shortly before one o'clock this afternoon." Cautions: Did any other reception report actually hearing her use the term "SOS"? She is asking Fred, over the radio, if anyone heard them on the radio? What special information can Fred have, that he could answer this question, not in theoretical terms, but as an actual knowing if they were heard? Old-time paintings of historical events had the figures all oriented to the gaze of the viewer. I think a bit of caution is in order; are these quoted sentences directed to each other, are they oriented to a radio "audience" ? Ron Bright: sorry for misspelling your name! -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:02:07 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post loss message The Western Electric microphone was certainly not a noise-cancelling type. The earliest ones i have seen are 1944, but I don't claim to have this down for sure. This maybe is not to difficult to research, and i'll look into that a bit. ( Also, you would think WE's contemporary advertising would have crowed about this feature - had it been sold then. ) I "think" the WeCo microphone was probably closest to a simple aviation carbon mic RS-38 used in civil and military aviation throughout the 1940s. This is another of the facets of the Earhart story that needs more facts. -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:03:00 From: Hue Miller Subject: Harney drawings I took a look around the TIGHAR Store but could not find listed the Harney drawings offer which was included in a recent Tracks. Is this offer still available? Thanks- Hue Miller **************************************** Absolutely. We are closing in on the last few instruments and should have them ready to send out pretty soon. A monumental task.... Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:05:45 From: Hue Miller Subject: Receiver antenna, again Seeing an initial drawing from the Harney collection has convinced me that the TIGHAR idea that there was one receiver antenna and that was ventral, below the aircraft, is correct. The antenna lead-in wire in this case would be less than 3 foot, i estimate. If the receiver antenna was derived from the "RECEIVER ANTENNA" post on the transmitter, that would be about a 10-foot run. This was not coaxial cable where such a run would be an unimportant factor; the wire would be plain wire or low-capacity-type coax as (once was? still is? ) used for car radios. That kind of wire creates loss of signal so the length of it inside the vehicle of whatever kind, needs to be minimized; also to minimize noise pickup. Also, and this might just be me, but i would feel just a wee bit less safe with a wire from the transmitter running past the fuel tanks. "What if" the transmitter antenna switchover relay somehow failed, and you had a thousand volts ( of radio frequency, not the thousand volts from dynamotor ) running past the fuel tanks? Perhaps i can find some quotes from early texts on the desirability of keeping the inside antenna lead-in wire as short as possible, as a bit more of evidence that the "ventral receiver antenna" really was the case. This is in keeping with the thinking that the loss of the receiver antenna at take-off at Lae contributed majorly to the communications breakdown later. -Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:08:32 From: Reed Riddle Subject: Re: New post loss message >From Hue Miller > >The Toronto Star on Monday, July 5, said that the phrase ?D?you think >they got our SOS?? was heard "shortly before one o?clock this >afternoon." > >Cautions: Did any other reception report actually hearing her use the term >"SOS"? She is asking Fred, over the radio, if anyone heard them on the radio? >What special information can Fred have, that he could answer this question, >not in theoretical terms, but as an actual knowing if they were heard? I think the idea is that she asked Fred, sitting next to her, if he thought the message might have gotten through. Fred, of course, would have had no idea, but he had more technical experience than Earhart so it's natural for her to ask for some kind of hopeful affirmation that she wasn't wasting her time. People do things like that all of the time, as you must know...it's a human thing to ask for affirmation of someone who can't really know the answer just to make you feel better. :) Most of the post loss messages are carrier wave, and who knows how many times she said SOS and it was not heard. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...which is why the idea of searching old newspapers for evidence of other receptions is a great idea. The more evidence that we have, especially any that overlaps, will only help to illuminate what was going on (or not as the case may be). Reed= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:23:48 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post loss message Ric wrote: >Most of the post loss messages are carrier wave, and who knows how >many times she said SOS and it was not heard. Absence of evidence >is not evidence of absence...which is why the idea of searching old >newspapers for evidence of other receptions is a great idea. The >more evidence that we have, especially any that overlaps, will only >help to illuminate what was going on (or not as the case may be). You do not fully address the issues i raised. ( Also not sure what you mean by "carrier wave". AM voice modulation?? ) Did any postlanding reception report the use of the "SOS" when she was calling? Also, why the need to tell the world, when she is asking Fred a question? -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:24:20 From: Hue Miller Subject: Mid-ships gas tanks Here is a question on something which, i suppose, has no bearing on the outcome of the flight at all, but which i wonder about - in trying to understand what it was like to actually be in that plane. The mid-ship fuel tanks, altho all sealed, do you suppose it still reeked of fuel back there? It doesn't take much of an amount of fumes of this volatile liquid to taint the air. If so- i suppose when flying, whatever air currents would keep it away from the cabin, but when parked in the hot sun?? -Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:24:49 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: New post-loss message Years ago while my youngest daughter was still living in Sydney, Australia I asked her to review all the news papers from the relevant time period, meaning from 2 July through 9 July. she did so and sent me copies which I still have in my file. there were no reports of post loss messages. however, just in case my memory is not as good as I think I will get those out and report back. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:25:21 From: Hue Miller Subject: Microphone again Regarding the microphone and what it picked up, we have these various clues to consider: With the engine running in flight, it was loud enuff that the pilot and co had to shout to each other. Engine could be heard in background. Microphone could pick up cabin sounds, both people speaking, in normal voice, and perhaps outside sounds. Are there any contradictions in the above facts? Also, the most recently mentioned postloss reception, is there occult information? Such as, for example, "The battery is discharging at 20 amps. How long can we run on that?" No- it seems what's over-heard is the most innocuous stuff. "Do you think they heard our SOS?" Anyone could have said that, or imagined that AE said that. -Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:26:17 From: Daryl Bolinger Subject: Re: New post loss message Mrs. Crabb included in her account ; "Once a few sentences that seemed to be Japanese broke in. It was thought possible there might be would-be rescuers, seeking to locate the aeroplane." This didn't go unnoticed by me. It reinforces what Amy Earhart wrote to Neta Snook Southern about a Japanese fishing boat rescuing Amelia and the celebrations that followed. At the very minimum it seems indicative that the news and entertainment broadcast station on Jaluit, that Cipriani also heard on Howland, was broadcasting at or near a frequency that the post loss messages were heard. Daryll ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:26:53 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post-loss message In trying to match up the transmissions reportedly heard by Mrs. Crabb with other reported post-loss signals, it's important that we know whether Toronto was on Daylight Savings Time in July 1937. Can anyone find that information? Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:27:17 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post loss message Kerry Tiller writes >I think it would be a worthwhile project for TIGHAR members to >check their local newspapers for July 3, 4, 5, and 6, 1937 for any >similar reports of local short wave listeners that may not have >reached national attention. We now have one example of it; I bet >there are others. News paper archives can be found at your local >newspaper, the local library and/or the local historical society. >One day of a few phone calls to locate an archive and an afternoon >of reading a few days of newspapers might turn up more of the same. >I'm thinking especially smaller towns and cities that would only >have had two dailies or maybe even only a weekly. What do you think? I think it's an excellent idea. Many papers will carry wire service accounts of post-loss signals heard in Los Angeles and elsewhere, but sometimes a local report will appear only in the local paper. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:51:16 From: Tom King Subject: Re: New post loss message Hue Miller writes: >Also, why the need to tell the world, when she is asking Fred a >question? For heaven's sake, Hue, she wasn't trying to tell the world; she was (if the transmission is genuine) talking to Fred while the mike was live. That sort of thing does happen; ask Jesse Jackson. LTM (who tries to be very careful with live mikes) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:03:14 From: Mike Piner Subject: Re: New post loss message Reed Riddle said: >What special information can Fred Noonan have >that he could answer this question? We believe that they were listening to the Hawaii commercial radio station where tests were made asking Amelia to respond with a special Morse signal, and immediatly after the asked for signal was heard. This might be the context in which Amelia was wanting reassurance from Fred. Also the young Girl in Montana had similar expressions from Amelia, as I recall reading. I don't have any hesitation in believing, they generally are credible, because it takes some smart planning as a hoaxer to even sound plausible.I believe they are easier to spot (the hoaxes), than to refute the ligitimate ones LTM ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:08:16 From: Reed Riddle Subject: Re: New post loss message Daylight savings time wasn't really implemented as we have it today until during WW2, aside from a brief bit during WW1. Canada likely did the same thing as us, so I would be very surprised if any part of Canada had even thought about DST in the '30s. Reed ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:08:44 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post loss message >From Daryl Bolinger > >Mrs. Crabb included in her account ; > >"Once a few sentences that seemed to be Japanese broke in. It was >thought possible there might be would-be rescuers, seeking to locate >the aeroplane." > >This didn't go unnoticed by me. It reinforces what Amy Earhart wrote >to Neta Snook Southern about a Japanese fishing boat rescuing Amelia >and the celebrations that followed. > >At the very minimum it seems indicative that the news and >entertainment broadcast station on Jaluit, that Cipriani also heard >on Howland, was broadcasting at or near a frequency that the post >loss messages were heard. Why would a Japanese fishing boat operate their radio on the same aviation channel? Who were they talking to in Japanese? Why would a Japanese fishing boat in 1937 have a radio at all? I think this highly unlikely- if i have to, i will prove that, if you are prepared with facts to argue that a Japanese fishing boat 1) had a radio at all 2) the radio was operable in voice mode 3) on 3105 kHz. I did not find in "Finding Amelia" a reference to a broadcast station on Jaluit. Why would there be one there? Was it listed in international registry? Did the Japanese even into WW2 have "entertainment broad-cast stations anywhere outside the major cities of their empire? -Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:15:29 From: Joe Arcure Subject: Re: New post loss message >From Ric > >In trying to match up the transmissions reportedly heard by Mrs. >Crabb with other reported post-loss signals, it's important that we >know whether Toronto was on Daylight Savings Time in July 1937. Can >anyone find that information? I seem to remember reading somewhere years ago, that DST was only started right after the war began and stayed that way til the war ended because to keep up the production of our war plants. I doubt it was in vogue in 1937 Joe W3HNK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:17:22 From: Tom King Subject: Re: New post loss message Hue Miller writes: >Why would there be one there? I can answer that one. Because Jaluit was the island from which the Japanese governed the Marshall Islands, as had the Germans before them. It was a pretty highly developed place, and besides the government, a number of traders headquartered there. Although a great deal more development took place during WWII, I'd be surprised if Jaluit didn't have a radio station of some kind in the 1930s. LTM (who thinks Jaluit is a pretty neat island) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:30:40 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post loss message >From Mike Piner > >Reed Riddle said: >>What special information can Fred Noonan have >>that he could answer this question> > >We believe that they were listening to the Hawaii commercial >radio station where tests were made asking Amelia to respond with a >special Morse signal, and immediatly after the asked for signal was >heard. >This might be the context in which Amelia was wanting reassurance >from Fred. Also the young Girl in Montana had similar expressions >from Amelia, as I recall reading. >I don't have any hesitation in believing, they generally are >credible, because it takes some smart planning as a hoaxer to even >sound plausible.I believe they are easier to spot (the hoaxes), than >to refute the ligitimate ones I am entirely leaving aside the question of hoax vs. real at this point. I think you need to explain why we hear a conversation between the two. A microphone that in flight has the very loud cabin engine noise being substantially attenuated, later, is later amazingly able to work almost as a broadcast microphone, more sensitive, not to mention, no need to push any push-to-talk button. Or did Amelia keep a death grip on the push to talk button, even when they were "wrestling" for control ( per Betty ). Or that the push to talk button is now magically defective? I suggest we sort the postloss messages into two overall bins: one where a single voice was heard, or a carrier, and the second, where we hear both our flyers in conversation: transmissions which have a "broadcast aspect". When considering reception, also maybe worthwhile asking if the high-frequency harmonic reception is likely or possible during late night hours at the receiving site. "Finding Amelia" BTW on pg. 137 has a statement that only higher-order harmonics can be heard at long distance. This is not technically correct. The particular conditions of signal propagation apply at any particular time, no matter the signal source. -Hue Miller -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:37:26 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re New post-loss message From Tom King >Hue Miller writes: > >>Also, why the need to tell the world, when she is asking Fred a >>question? > >For heaven's sake, Hue, she wasn't trying to tell the world; she was >(if the transmission is genuine) talking to Fred while the mike was >live. That sort of thing does happen; ask Jesse Jackson. Tom, WHY was the microphone live? (As with Jesse, was this at a "media event?) Why now does the microphone pick up cabin conversation, when in flight it is not so generous toward the very loud engine noise? Is it so important to have another postloss reception report, that HOW and WHY are insignificant bothers? -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:45:14 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: DST Ric, it looks very likely that any time of day references to Mrs Crabb wouldn't have anything to do with daylight savings time. See: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/daylightsavingtime/ Although the earliest DST laws in North American and European countries are indeed from 1914-1917, this was owing to war. DST was overwhelmingly dropped between 1918 and 1939. LTM, who sprang forward ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:50:24 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post loss message >From Tom King > >Hue Miller writes: > >>Why would there be one there? > >I can answer that one. Because Jaluit was the island from which the >Japanese governed the Marshall Islands, as had the Germans before >them. It was a pretty highly developed place, and besides the >government, a number of traders headquartered there. Although a >great deal more development took place during WWII, I'd be surprised >if Jaluit didn't have a radio station of some kind in the 1930s. So you are basing the probability by considering its importance and thus it "should" have a broadcast station? How widespread, i wonder, was radio ownership among subjects of the Emperor, in 1937 ? I think we can find a broadcast station listing for the year and dispose of this question. -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:00:39 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: New post loss message Hue Miller wrote to Tom >Tom, WHY was the microphone live? ( As with Jesse, was this at a >"media event ? ) >Why now does the microphone pick up cabin conversation, when in >flight it is not so generous toward the very loud engine noise? Someone in even a mild state of panic, whilst tightly gripping a handheld microphone inside the sun-baked cabin of an aluminium aircraft, might easily forget to let go of the talk button now and then. If the engine was running, she also may have meant to do it, to keep the carrier wave on the air, but this would seem somewhat less likely. LTM, who had a grip on it, ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:03:24 From: Tom King Subject: Re: New post loss message Hue Miller writes: >Is it so important to have another postloss reception report, that HOW >and WHY are insignificant bothers? -Hue Of course not, but there are questions that simply can't be answered, and it seems (to me) silly to belabor them. It just might be -- having been in the air for 20+ hours, having just about gotten used to the idea of falling into the sea and drowning, having found an island to land on and landed on it, and finding herself on the edge of a reef with the surf breaking all around -- that Amelia was just a tad distracted and not entirely brisk about releasing the button. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:25:32 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post loss message >Hue Miller says: > >I think you need to explain why we hear a conversation between the >two. That's easy. We have a number of otherwise apparently credible transmissions in which two people can be heard conversing. We don't know what kind of mic was in the airplane. All I need to do to explain a conversation being heard is say that she apparently had a mic that could pick up the voices of two people speaking loudly within the confines of a very small space (ever been in a Lockheed 10 cockpit?) with no ambient noise except possibly an engine ticking over at 900 RPM (barely above idle). >A microphone that in flight has the very loud cabin engine noise >being substantially attenuated, later, is later amazingly able to work >almost as a broadcast microphone, more sensitive, not to mention, >no need to push any push-to-talk button. We don't know how attenuated the in-flight engine noise was. You're trying to reason from assumption and speculation as if it were fact. >Or did Amelia keep a death >grip on the push to talk button, even when they were "wrestling" for >control ( per Betty ). Or that the push to talk button is now >magically defective? I don't know and neither do you. >I suggest we sort the postloss messages into two overall bins: one >where a single voice was heard, or a carrier, and the second, where >we hear both our flyers in conversation: transmissions which have a >"broadcast aspect". That's easy. Until Mrs. Crabb appeared, only Betty heard two people talking to each other. That's what makes Mrs. Crabb so interesting. So the conversation bin contains only Betty and Mrs. Crabb. To characterize such transmissions as having a "broadcast aspect" implies that they sound like a commercial broadcast. They absolutely do not. >When considering reception, also maybe worthwhile asking if the >high-frequency harmonic reception is likely or possible during late >night hours at the receiving site. Bob Brandenburg is crunching those numbers. >"Finding Amelia" BTW on pg. 137 has a statement that only higher- >order harmonics can be heard at long distance. This is not technically >correct. The particular conditions of signal propagation apply at any >particular time, no matter the signal source. I was explaining an entry in the Itasca radio log in which George Thompson, the operator aboard the cutter, was commenting to Yau Fai Lum (K6GNW) on Howland that a carrier he was hearing could not be the second harmonic from a broadcasting station. The Itasca operator said, "It is impossible for a second harmonic to go 1000 miles." If you dispute that your argument is with George Thompson, not me. Ric Gillespie Executive Director TIGHAR www.tighar.org tigharic@mac.com author of "Finding Amelia - The True Story of the Earhart Disappearance" Published by the Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:37:26 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post loss message Regarding Mrs. Crabb hearing something that might have been Japanese: Daryl wrote, >It reinforces what Amy Earhart wrote >to Neta Snook Southern about a Japanese fishing boat rescuing Amelia >and the celebrations that followed. Would you care to explain how Amy's comment could have been anything other than rank speculation? I don't know whether Japanese fishing boats had radios in 1937. I don't even know whether there WERE any Japanese fishing boats in the Central Pacific in 1937. I've spent quite a bit of time on Jaluit working on our Devastator Project. The people there tell us that one reason things got bad for the locals on Jaluit during the war when the U.S. Navy blockaded the island was that the Japanese stole the local peoples' food because the Japanese DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO FISH. If Mrs. Crabb heard Japanese she was probably picking up a commercial broadcast station in Japan or Hawaii (where there was a huge Japanese immigrant population). Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:40:16 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: DST Reed Riddle writes: >Daylight savings time wasn't really implemented as we have it today >until during WW2, aside from a brief bit during WW1. Canada likely >did the same thing as us, so I would be very surprised if any part >of Canada had even thought about DST in the '30s. During the 1930s DST was fairly common around the U.S. but its use was spotty - sometimes county by county or city by city. I don't know why it would be any different in Canada. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:52:35 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post loss message Hue Miller asks: >WHY was the microphone live? I don't l know about you, but if I was desperately afraid I was going to die and the radio was my only lifeline, you can be darn sure the microphone would be live anytime I thought anyone might be able to hear anything. >Why now does the microphone pick up cabin conversation, when in >flight it is not so generous toward the very loud engine noise? That is not true so please stop saying it. The microphone did pick up the very loud engine noise. That is well-documented. How loud and how closely Earhart had to speak into the mic to be heard over the "hum of the plane" is information we do not have but it is certainly possible that the mic, in quieter conditions, could pick up two people speaking loudly in small space. >Is it so important to have another postloss reception report, that HOW >and WHY are insignificant bothers? How and why are highly significant and perfectly understandable. If you don't like the hypothesis, submit a better one. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:11:11 From: Ed Lyon Subject: Re: DST I can distinctly remember the change in about 1942, when the US went to "War Time" which was an additional hour offset from the then-current Daylight Savings Time. There had been regular Standard Time in winter and Daylight Savings Time in summer until that date, all through my earlier grade-school years, and we were reminded by the teachers to "make sure you set the clocks right tonight." This was my fourth-grade teacher's reminder, which I remember well. That would have been toward the end of the school year 1939-1940, probably April or May 1940. So I'll bet there WAS DST during Amelia's flight. Ed ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:13:11 From: Tom King Subject: Re: New post-loss message >The people there tell us that one >reason things got bad for the locals on Jaluit during the war when >the U.S. Navy blockaded the island was that the Japanese stole the >local peoples' food because the Japanese DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO FISH. I would take that fish story with several grains of salt. As I recall, there were pretty substantial fish processing facilities before the War in at least Palau and Saipan, and I think in Chuuk and Jaluit as well. Somebody had to be doing the fishing, and in deep water with then-modern rigs it probably wasn't the Marshallese, Chuukese, Palauans and Chamorros. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:13:59 From: Hue Miller Subject: Separate plane antennas I thought of possibly another reason to run the receiver, under the pilot's seat, straight to the ventral antenna, under the plane, instead of running its lead-in back to the transmitter another 10 ft. past the fuel storage tanks. What if the plane happened to be struck by lightening? The course of the high voltage "could" go down the top antenna to the transmitter, jump the gap at the receive-transmit antenna changeover relay, and course down the wire to the receiver at front. This would take the high voltage flash right past the fuel tanks. Might this not be a safe way to do things? If there was any kind of fuel leak or fumes, might this be dangerous? I talked to a Navy air vet who told me about refusing to take a PBY out on a search mission because of a fuel leak problem they felt was dangerous. I think he told me on the same search another PBY disappeared and they thought that it had exploded in flight due to a fuel leak. This was in the 1945 - 1947 time frame in Florida. -Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:19:33 From: Jack Clark Subject: Re: New post loss message To Alan Caldwell. Alan I am intrigued by your report that there were no post loss message items in the Sydney papers. Melbourne papers of the times had reports starting on 3rd July (Melbourne Herald. An evening paper.) and reports continuing until 10th July (also Melbourne Herald) All dates East Australian Time. Jack Clark #2564 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:22:38 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: New post loss message There wasn't always two people in a small space. Fred was in the back part of the time we can guess. I'm not really following this thread well. I don't understand the problem. There appears to be a scenario imposed without factual support. If only Earhart was in the seat when she talked Fred wouldn't be heard. If Fred was in the second seat which appears to be rather close to the first seat and Earhart opened the mike Fred could probably be heard. If Earhart opened the mike to talk but also said something to Fred and he responded THAT could be heard. Generally whatever noise is closest to the mike ought to be heard. Why must we assume Earhart always closed the mike when she made a quick comment to Fred? If the engines are running we will hear the engines. If they are not we won't. Other extraneous sounds could be most anything -- surf, static, etc. but we can't assign a source then argue it isn't possible. Why are we having a problem with this? Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:26:14 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: new post loss message As I said, Jack that was my memory but I haven't had time to recheck. I'm kind of occupied with my son's rehab. I'll get to it. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:02:11 From: John Barrett Subject: Re: New post loss message Just a thought... It might not need to be "miraculous" for the Push To Talk (PTT) button to have broken, leaving the mike live. Not if you consider that they may have been using the button to try to send morse over the carrier wave. I would think that that would tend to put a bit of strain on the button and it's workings. Certainly more than simply using it in PTT mode as it was designed. LTM, John Barrett (who knows a thing or two about pushing buttons) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:02:48 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Midships gas tanks Hue, I'm sure you have a good point as I don't know how well the tanks were sealed but in 20 years of flying I have never smelled fuel fumes. Everything else but not fuel. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:05:50 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: New post-loss message Am I to assume everyone involved in hearing the "Japanese" talk absolutely could identify Japanese from all the other Asian languages? alan ************************ Especially given that, strictly speaking, Japanese is not an Asian language and sounds nothing like Chinese, etc., having more in common with Finnish. The best most folks could probably do back then might well be "not European." Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:09:17 From: Hue Miller Subject: Castaway's food source Would it be reasonable to think that the castaway meal remnants, for American castaways, would be pretty much restricted to shellfish? I do not see how our duo could catch fish or sea turtles, given their skills and equipment. Or maybe this subject has been sufficiently hashed over already. -Hue Miller ************************************* No. Turtles are extremely easy to catch being notoriously slow and awkward when on land, and the eggs certainly don't run away. Fish there are easy to catch as well, being not used to fishermen. You can walk up to many of the birds even now, and their eggs don't run away either. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:09:43 From: Hue Miller Subject: Post loss messages of 2 kinds I will need to refer to my "Finding Amelia" again, but i do not recall any of the post-loss receptions heard in the Pacific area had more than a single voice at a time. Is this significant? "Maybe", maybe not. -Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:39:36 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post loss message Ric wrote: >That's easy. We have a number of otherwise apparently credible >transmissions in which two people can be heard conversing. We don't >know what kind of mic was in the airplane. All I need to do to >explain a conversation being heard is say that she apparently had a >mic that could pick up the voices of two people speaking loudly >within the confines of a very small space (ever been in a Lockheed 10 >cockpit?) with no ambient noise except possibly an engine ticking >over at 900 RPM (barely above idle). > >>A microphone that in flight has the very loud cabin engine noise >>being substantially attenuated, later, is later amazingly able to work >>almost as a broadcast microphone, more sensitive, not to mention, >>no need to push any push-to-talk button. > >We don't know how attenuated the in-flight engine noise was. You're >trying to reason from assumption and speculation as if it were fact. > >>Or did Amelia keep a death >>grip on the push to talk button, even when they were "wrestling" for >>control ( per Betty ). Or that the push to talk button is now >>magically defective? > >I don't know and neither do you. All i want you to do is say that in flight, the noise of the engine, loud in the cabin, was not reported being heard strongly by the radio hearers. ( Can we assume somewhere along the line, IF the engine noise was strongly heard in the radio, faithfully reproducing what it picked up in the cabin, some hearer would have noted that? ) And that the same microphone was able to pick up a conversation in the cabin. Can we assume that while conversing with Fred, Amelia would not hold the microphone to her lips? Or am i assuming too much? Perhaps she did hold the microphone right in front of her lips when she asked Fred "Do you think they heard our SOS?" or told him, "Listen (to the radio) (per Betty). If she didn't need to hold the microphone up in front of her, or Fred, why pick up the microphone at all? Maybe the microphone was still hung up on its hook, and the button was somehow providentially stuck "down". ??? Altho we don't know exactly what microphone was attached to the radio, we know it was a carbon microphone (from the transmitter specifications), one manufactured similar to other manufacturers' carbon microphones of the time, a fairly simple device, generally with low sensitivity, and for a reason. There is nothing arcane or magic about the microphone. You have Amelia holding down the microphone button while she says to Fred, something like "Here, listen". ( per Betty ) Amelia is distracted enough that she forgets to release the microphone button on repeated broadcast occasions, and over a significant portion of a 1.5+ hour broadcast. I note that also, these 2-voice radio hearings seem to be popping up in the Eastern Time zone. No reports, legitimate that is, from the West Coast. Now, the mountain zone and the plains states were not as highly populated, less potential listeners, but the West Coast was: California, Portland OR, the Seattle - Vancouver areas. These places would also have a reception advantage over the eastern USA in that they were closer to an all over salt water path. Yet, no reception reports there? Yes- the numbers of receptions MAY make this sampling population too small to derive any conclusion from. -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:40:37 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post loss message Ric wrote: >Hue Miller asks: > >>WHY was the microphone live? > >I don't know about you, but if I was desperately afraid I was going >to die and the radio was my only lifeline, you can be darn sure the >microphone would be live anytime I thought anyone might be able to >hear anything. Allright, i can accept that. Altho when Ms. Crabb or Betty noted AE's comments, they did not sound so desperate as the Itasca people noted AE's last pre-loss transmissions. >>Why now does the microphone pick up cabin conversation, when in >>flight it is not so generous toward the very loud engine noise? > >That is not true so please stop saying it. The microphone did pick >up the very loud engine noise. That is well-documented. How loud >and how closely Earhart had to speak into the mic to be heard over >the "hum of the plane" is information we do not have but it is >certainly possible that the mic, in quieter conditions, could pick up >two people speaking loudly in small space. Okay, in quieter conditions, the microphone could pick up a cabin conversation. So when transmitting when flying, one had to get close to the microphone to override the engine noise. Otherwise, just speaking loudly did it. >If you don't like the hypothesis, submit a better one. No thanks. It is NOT incumbent on me to submit another hypothesis. I think i CAN question one submitted already. -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:41:06 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post loss message >From John Barrett > >Just a thought... It might not need to be "miraculous" for the Push >To Talk (PTT) button to have broken, leaving the mike live. Not if >you consider that they may have been using the button to try to send >morse over the carrier wave. I have seen microphones, vintage ones, with YEARS of use and not seen a failure of this kind. More likely seems to be where the microphone button will no longer actuate the switch. -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:41:27 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: new post loss message A few years ago I posted a few articles from the New York Times about the Japanese broadcasting of shortwave music and news to the east coast in July 1937. Quite a powerful station. Some were Japanese broadcasts, some in English. Several researchers, Prafford I b believe cited a powerful AM station at Jaluit, which as I recall, PAA would tune into for bearings. Ron Bright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:41:53 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: New post loss message Maybe this means that the Japanese soldiers were underfed, and did not know how to fish from shore. Different story. Dan Postellon >From Tom King > >>The people there tell us that one >>reason things got bad for the locals on Jaluit during the war when >>the U.S. Navy blockaded the island was that the Japanese stole the >>local peoples' food because the Japanese DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO FISH. > >I would take that fish story with several grains of salt. As I >recall, there were pretty substantial fish processing facilities >before the War in at least Palau and Saipan, and I think in Chuuk >and Jaluit as well. Somebody had to be doing the fishing, and in >deep water with then-modern rigs it probably wasn't the >Marshallese, Chuukese, Palauans and Chamorros. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:45:57 From: Mona Kendrick Subject: Re: New post loss message Hue Miller writes: >Tom, WHY was the microphone live? ( As with Jesse, was this at a >"media event ? ) Maybe a stuck mike. It still happens today with aircraft radios. --Mona ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:46:18 From: Jim Preston Subject: Re: Separate plane antennas HUE, the C-133 had a similar problem. Jim Preston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:46:48 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Castaway's food source Adding a bit to what Pat's said -- one thing that suggests to our fishbone analyst that the fish-catcher was not a Pacific islander is that the fish are mostly quite small and represent a wide range of species (i.e. the catcher wasn't very discriminating). Another is that they come from easily accessible habitats that are not the most productive on the reef -- the catcher wasn't fishing the best spots. As for turtles, even if you're not a hare it's pretty easy to outrun a sea turtle on land; remember they're dragging themselves around on flippers. And the babies, which are represented in our sample, fight their way out of their eggs and the nest but hang around for several days before heading for the sea, suffering a high level of mortality along the way from predation by crabs, birds, etc. We're awaiting the report on analysis of birdbone; it'll be interesting to see what it reveals. LTM (a real animal) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:48:33 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post loss message Hue Miller says: >All i want you to do is say that in flight, the noise of the engine, loud in >the cabin, was not reported being heard strongly by the radio hearers. >( Can we assume somewhere along the line, IF the engine noise was >strongly heard in the radio, faithfully reproducing what it picked >up in the cabin, some hearer would have noted that? ) No, I don't think we can assume any such thing. Neither of us and, as far as I know, no one on this forum, knows what a "normal" in-flight voice radio transmission sounded like in the 1930s. I do know that reception was generally so poor that most commercial flights still used morse code and voice transmissions were made in the stilted monotone we now associate with old movies. >Can we assume that while conversing with Fred, Amelia would not hold the >microphone to her lips? Or am i assuming too much? Perhaps she did hold >the microphone right in front of her lips when she asked Fred "Do you think >they heard our SOS?" or told him, "Listen (to the radio) (per Betty). If she >didn't need to hold the microphone up in front of her, or Fred, why pick >up the microphone at all? Maybe the microphone was still hung up on its >hook, and the button was somehow providentially stuck "down". ??? For the conversations Betty and Mrs. Crabb heard to be genuine, it had to be possible for an open microphone in the cockpit of the Electra to pick up their voices. If you can prove that is impossible, please do so. >Altho we don't know exactly what microphone was attached to the radio, >we know it was a carbon microphone (from the transmitter specifications), >one manufactured similar to other manufacturers' carbon microphones >of the time, a fairly simple >device, generally with low sensitivity, and for a reason. > >There is nothing arcane or magic about the microphone. No one has suggested that there is. >You have Amelia holding down the microphone button while she says to >Fred, something like "Here, listen". ( per Betty ) >Amelia is distracted enough that she forgets to release the microphone >button on repeated broadcast occasions, and over a significant >portion of a 1.5+ hour broadcast. Distracted ain't in it. On the ragged edge of sheer panic would be more like it. You may have a hard time believing that AE would keep a death-grip on the mic and forget to follow proper procedure. I don't. >I note that also, these 2-voice radio hearings seem to be popping up in the >Eastern Time zone. No reports, legitimate that is, from the West Coast. >Now, the mountain zone and the plains states were not as highly populated, >less potential listeners, but the West Coast was: California, Portland OR, >the Seattle - Vancouver areas. These places would also have a reception >advantage over the eastern USA in that they were closer to an all over salt >water path. Yet, no reception reports there? Yes- the numbers of receptions >MAY make this sampling popula These 2-voice radio hearings are not popping up. Until Betty in 2000 we knew of none, but the only contemporary written source for her account was the notebook that Betty herself provided. That's why we went to such lengths to validate the notebook as a genuine 1937 document. Now, eight years later, we've become aware of a second very similar incident that occurred within hours of when we think Betty heard what she heard. This one happens to come from Toronto. Two is hardly a significant sampling. If nothing else, Mrs. Crabb's account tells us that there could very possibly be more out there. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:49:43 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post loss message Hue Miller writes: >when Ms. Crabb or Betty noted AE's >comments, they did not sound so desperate as the Itasca people >noted AE's last pre-loss transmissions. I disagree. >It is NOT incumbent on me to submit another hypothesis. >I think i CAN question one submitted already. You can disprove the hypothesis with documented evidence. We're constantly trying to do that ourselves. But simply saying that the implied scenario doesn't seem reasonable to you accomplishes nothing and merely wastes time, so we're going to stop doing that. Please let us know when you have something to offer other than opinion. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:55:27 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: New post loss message To Jack and Ric and all. I did not make myself clear, Jack. I did not say or if I did I did not mean there were no post loss message items in the Sydney morning Herald. there were many. I have just taken a break from mowing grass and reviewed the file. My daughter sent me every item from 2 July through 12 July. ALL were repeats from New York. There were NO items claiming ANY transmissions were heard in Australia. Jack, did Melbourne papers report transmissions being heard by Australian or KIWI receivers or were those items just repeats from NY? Ric, to the best I can determine there is nothing in the SMH you don't already have. General comments on the radio thread which has been beaten to death: 1. I have no idea what Electra engines sound like in an Electra. I don't know what loud means. I flew the North American T-6G which had the same engine albeit only one. It was louder at high RPM than at idle. Hello! what a surprise. At lower RPM we could yell at each other in the tandem cockpit. 2. Because something was not heard does not mean it wasn't transmitted. All it means is we don't have such a report. We found no Australian radio report but that doesn't mean there aren't any. 3. I have seen nothing to convince me Earhart's mike was continuously open for any given length of time. 4. I have seen nothing that seems out of reason about any of the transmissions. I had one particular emergency in Vietnam in which I was talking to the tower, intercom and off intercom all in the same period. I don't see what is so improbable. 5. I have no idea what Amelia's voice sounded like as to being excited, terrified, stressed or whatever. I defy anyone else to make that determination. 6. I can not see that there is any inference that can be drawn over where transmissions were heard and where they were not heard. Those that WERE heard -- yes but we have no idea where else they were heard. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:31:09 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New post loss message >I have no idea what Electra engines sound like in an Electra. I >don't know what loud means. I can tell you this much. The noise of the engines (or, more accurately, the props) of Linda Finch's 10E reportedly defeated her noise-canceling headset. That's loud. I can also tell you that Merrill and Lambie were deaf as the proverbial post when they arrived in England after a full day in their 10E Special "Daily Express." That's loud too. I would bet that Earhart had to have the mic right up to her lips and speak loudly when making in-flight transmissions. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:32:54 From: Daryll Bolinger Subject: Re: New post loss message [note from Pat: nothing else will be posted on the subject of the Japanese fishing boat story.] Hue and Ric Hue send me, DaryllB25840@MSN.com , your email address and I will send you my PDF file titled the "Japanese Fishing Boat Rescue Story of Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan" that I offered to the forum a couple of months ago. You'll need the free Adobe reader to open it. I used the words "Japanese Fishing Boat" because Amy Earhart used them in her 1944 letter to Neta Snook Southern and other sources did also when referring to the possible rescue of Amelia and Fred. I think the American public, circa 1937, viewed Japan the Japanese as a nation of fishers and consequently their Navy was a navy of fishing boats even though our code-breakers were learning the performance capabilities of the Yamato. So my beliefs are that the term "Japanese Fishing Boat" was a metaphor, namely for the Koshu which was a survey and supply ship that roamed the Mandates. In that PDF I mentioned, I referred to part of a story written by PAA Capt. Almon Gray who was a contemporary of Fred Noonan. In 1935 Capt. Gray was in charge of the Wake Island PAA stopover. He said Noonan was aware of the Japanese broadcast station on Jaluit and would check the Wake island PAA DF antenna calibration on it. He also said he would listen to it, supposedly the music because I haven't seen any evidence that Noonan could understand Japanese. Capt. Gray said it was fairly powerful and operated in the standard AM broadcast band and was intended to cover a large geographical area of the Pacific. It operated from the early morning until late at night. I believe the station was operated by the South Seas Trading Company for the benefit of the Japanese in the Marshall's. If that station was responsible for spilling the beans on the Earhart rescue it might not have been in operation after July 1937. Ric asks; "Would you care to explain how Amy's comment could have been anything other than rank speculation?" Amy was very impressed by the effort Margo DeCarie, Amelia's secretary, put forth that night (11:00pm) to drive the 27 miles to her house in North Hollywood to tell her what her friend had heard on the short-wave radio. I have to speculate that Margot's friend understood Japanese. Amy said that this all took place a few days after Amelia's S.O.S. and apparently while GPP was still in San Francisco. Amy, like yourself, believed this broadcast came from Tokio/Tokyo but the letter that showed up in the Jaluit post office for Amelia from the "Hollywood-Roosevelt Hotel, Hollywood California" where Margo lived, seems to indicate that Margo knew where the broadcast came from. The implication, reinforced by John Heine's school days recollection on Jaluit and Bilmon Amaron's medical treatment of the white man in other accounts, would suggest that the broadcast that was heard was transmitted as a news worthy event for the Marshall island Japanese. The post war hostility, reflected by the words "capture" in connection with the Marshall Island scenario, may not be accurate and more reflective of the prejudice created by World War Two. Capt. Gray said the Jaluit broadcast station was fairly powerful which would make sense by it being heard that night in California and maybe skipping to Toronto to bleed though into what Mrs. Crabb heard. Amy admitted to Neta in the '44' letter that she only discussed the Japanese connection with a "very few close-lipped friends". She only made her thoughts public in the 1947/49(?) newspaper article after the conclusion of the war. Her "rank speculation" was fed by someone that also told her that Amelia sent an S.O.S. I have long suspected that we don't have all of the "281 message" that was passed onto the Itasca minus the part that the plane was pretty well cracked up and Amelia was better off than Noonan. I think the Jaluit broadcast station was listed on some list because Eric De Bisschop in his writings on the Marshall islands made it a point to remark that the many small islands in the Marshall's that had Japanese living on them also had radios that weren't listed on the list. Daryll ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:42:38 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: New post loss message Lets assume that most likely AEs PTT button was held down or stuck in the open position, allowing in cockpit voices to be heard, engine running or shut down. AE is sending out information over a number of hours about her situation as well as sending a SOS. But as I understand it, she must have her earphones on to listen to any incoming signals re rescue and respond to. Does this argue against her continually talking with FN while awaiting incoming signals? Or did the Electra have a loudspeaker in the cockpit? Could she hear FN with the earphones on? Were there two headsets in the cockpit? Wouldn't she be concerned enough to check her PTT button because of battery drain and the fuse blow out possibility? Radio experts may shed some light on these problems. REB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:52:56 From: Tom King Subject: Re: New post loss message For Dan Postellon >Maybe this means that the Japanese soldiers were underfed, and did >not know how to fish from shore. Different story. Very true. You're probably right; when people in Jaluit or Chuuk or some such place say the Japanese didn't know how to "fish," they're probably not talking fishing in the generic sense, but fishing the reef, with all the local expertise that entails -- especially in an overfished environment. LTM, who doesn't find that fishy at all ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:23:22 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post-loss message >From Ric > >I can tell you this much. The noise of the engines (or, more >accurately, the props) of Linda Finch's 10E reportedly defeated her >noise-canceling headset. That's loud. I can also tell you that >Merrill and Lambie were deaf as the proverbial post when they arrived >in England after a full day in their 10E Special "Daily Express." >That's loud too. I would bet that Earhart had to have the mic right >up to her lips and speak loudly when making in-flight transmissions. So, at least for me, the question is: knowing how loud the engine sound in the cabin is, how sensitive is the microphone going to be? Or i should say, the modulation system, which includes amplifier in the set, besides the microphone. I am still wondering, if the noise was THAT loud, and otherwise the microphone could pick up both voices, why did not the engine noise overpower the microphone too? I would think in flight, then, the radio user would have to almost cup their hands around the microphone to shut back the engine noise. I am not talking just about a "hum noticed in background by listener" type thing. Pilot testimonials offered here: i HEAVILY discount the testimony on microphones of any pilot in the post-HF radio era. I mean, i discount the testimony of any flier whose experience with radio is with VHF, which came in, in the late 1940s. The VHF radios had smaller parts, smaller tubes, lower power, and more complex circuits with also more amplifying stages. If you look at the Western Electic transmitter wiring diagram, it has ONE tube in the audio chain. That is not out of the ordinary for many transmitters even thru WW2. ONE single stage of tube amplification does not make for a high sensitivity amplifier. The WW2 transmitters that have a similar modulation scheme, are notorious for needing a lot of audio to drive them, i mean having low sensitivity. I will need to think about demonstrating this for the transmitter in question. -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:24:31 From: Karen Hoy Subject: Re: DST I looked at the Toronto Star for 1937, and it appears Toronto was on Daylight Saving Time beginning on April 25, 1937. Articles that summer specified that an event would take place at "10 a.m. Daylight Saving Time" rather than leaving the reader to guess. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:25:30 From: Bob Lee Subject: Re: DST My search seems to say no -- they did not have DST in 1937. It was implemented during WWI and re-implimented during WWII -- Ontario seems to have the most rational rules -- Quebec, on the other hand seems to take a much more chaotic approach during the period between the wars and left the decision to local authorities. It really doesn't appear that there was much international agreement until the 60's. Bob ************************ I think Karen got the goods on this one. P ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:10:38 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: DST According to the New York Times, Japans two shortwave stations, JVN and JZJ, broadcast clear signals in June and July 1937, between 5-6 O'Clock in the afternoon Eastern Daylight Time. The late afternoon broadcasts were intended for listeners in Canada, and Eastern United States. The frequencies were 10.6 and 11.8 megacycles. I don';t know how this translates to the 19 meters that Mrs.Crabb heard in Toronto. In addition to news, Japanese music was transmitted. LTM, Ron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:28:40 From: Pat Thrasher Subject: Earhart and the radio Ted Campbell has pointed out that the radio operator at Lae advised Earhart to pitch her voice high and sharp while transmitting, as it would carry better. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:04:52 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: DST Ron Bright writes: >According to the New York Times, Japans two shortwave >stations, JVN and JZJ, broadcast clear signals in June and July >1937, between 5-6 O'Clock in the afternoon Eastern Daylight Time. Mrs. Crabb heard what she heard at unknown periods between 11:00 AM on Sunday July 4 and 1:00 PM on Monday, July 5. It's possible that she heard something between 5 and 6 o'clock on Sunday. >The late afternoon broadcasts were intended for listeners in >Canada, and Eastern United States. >The frequencies were 10.6 and 11.8 megacycles. I don';t know how >this translates to the 19 meters that Mrs.Crabb heard in Toronto. >In addition to news, Japanese music was transmitted. The Japanese frequencies are nowhere near the "19 cycles" or "19 kilocycles" reported in the newspaper. Mrs. Crabb was most likely tuned to about 1900 kilocycles (19 megacycles), but that is still a long way from the Japanese frequencies. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:11:07 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New post loss message >From Ron Bright, > >Hue, >A f ew years ago I posted a few articles from the New York Times >about the Japanese broadcasting of shortwave music and news to the >east coast in July 1937. Quite a powerful station. Some were Japanese >broadcasts, some in English. >Several researchers, Prafford I b believe cited a powerful AM >station at Jaluit, which as I recall, PAA would tune into for >bearings. Ron, looks like i will have to try to remember what i did with my ITU list books. Not that this question is central to the whole AE problem, i suppose; but maybe a teeny tidbit of interest. I am curious to find whether the Jaluit station was a weather reporting station, ship communications, link to Japan, or what. I would wager piles of Monopoly Money it did not do any english language broadcasting. -Hue ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:12:42 From: Marcus Lind Subject: Flying in the Electra -- noise factor 4 years ago, i did have a happy occasion to fly a bit in ex-Linda Finch's Electra - both in rear cabin and forward one (on the right seat). The ride was absolutely great; however i remember it well that the sound of engines was really deafening, especially in the pilot's cabin. I had the headphones on, and it was still very noisy... without them - i would be definitely unable to hear the pilot on the left seat, just one foot from myself, at all - if even he would try to speak very loudly. Kind regards - LTM, Marcus Lind ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:13:11 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: DST Karen Hoy writes, >I looked at the Toronto Star for 1937, and it appears Toronto was >on Daylight Saving Time beginning on April 25, 1937. > >Articles that summer specified that an event would take place at >"10 a.m. Daylight Saving Time" rather than leaving the reader to >guess. And THAT, boy and girls, is an example of why Karen is one of TIGHAR's star researchers. Take a bow Karen. Okay, so the first time Mrs. Crabb heard what she thought was Amelia was at 11:00 A.M. local time on Sunday, July 4. Now that we know that Toronto was on DST we know that the time was 15:00Z. That's the same time that Dana Randolph (and his father) in Rock Springs, Wyoming heard Amelia say "Ship on reef southeast of Howland." The Coast Guard investigated that report and found it credible. That's why I was pushing to find out for sure whether Toronto was on DST. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:14:47 From: Jack Clark Subject: Re: New post loss message To Alan Caldwell All the reports of messages I have originated in the United States. Honolulu, San Francisco, New York, Oakland and Washington. I have not seen any reports of messages, which might have come from Amelia, being heard in Australia or New Zealand . Jack Clark. #2564 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:59:57 From: Mona Kendrick Subject: Re: Earhart and the radio >From Pat > >Ted Campbell has pointed out that the radio operator at Lae advised >Earhart to pitch her voice high and sharp while transmitting, as it >would carry better. I've always wondered whether this might account for the Itasca personnel's impression that she sounded "panicky" in the last few radio transmissions. --Mona ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:29:10 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: Flying in the Electra >From Marcus Lind > >4 years ago, i did have a happy occasion to fly a bit in ex-Linda >Finch's Electra - both in rear cabin and forward one (on the right >seat). What a rare and precious experience. Just curious, with the headphones on all time, did you feel that this protected your hearing sufficiently? Were you able to be comfortable with the earphones on or did you feel that the noise was still way too loud? Thanks- Hue ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:29:32 From: Hue Miller Subject: Newspaper archives access I have never used actual newspaper archives before; i mean, at the newspaper. Perhaps one of the people here with experience in that can answer some simple questions: Do newspapers generally make visitor access easy? Or does it vary by paper? If there is any "screening" of the visitor, is there something that the researcher can say to smooth the way? Tnx- Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:51:07 From: Karen Hoy Subject: Re: Newspaper archive access >Perhaps one of the people here with experience in that >can answer some simple questions: Do newspapers generally make >visitor access easy? Or does it vary by paper? Online archive access depends on the newspaper. Many of them charge a small fee to access the full text articles and ask you to create an account to be able to log in. For example, with my recent searches of the Toronto Star, I paid $6.95 to have full access for 24 hours. During that time, I was able to log in with a user name and password. >If there is any "screening" >of the visitor, is there something that the researcher can >say to smooth the way? I don't think so. LTM, (who loves old news) Karen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:55:24 From: Kerry Tiller Subject: Re: Newspaper archives access It varies from paper to paper. One thing to remember if you want to dig into historical archives (say, for instance, July of 1937), is the current newspaper in your town the one that was in existence in 1937? And, more importantly, were their other papers that are now defunct? I would recommend trying your local historical society first. Almost every town has one these days. Also, your local library often has archival copies of the local papers available to researchers. Either of those two venues would likely to have more open access to the public. Also, if you live in a university town, the library (or libraries) will have newspaper archives. State schools will have easier access, but any university will probably require an appointment. Calling around first to the likely institutions should give you the answers you need. And, of course, check the internet for web pages of your local newspapers and historical societies; they may spell out exactly what you need to do as a researcher as well as describing the collections. This could save a lot of time and may provide (at least) the right phone number and/or extension to call to gain an appointment (if necessary). Hope this helps. 73s Kerry Tiller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:57:08 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Newspaper archive access Thanks so much, Karen Hoy! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:07:59 From: George Werth Subject: Re: DST All of this correspondence about "what time was it?" leads me to pose the following question; Do we know what time was set on the watches worn by AE and/or FN? It would make sense to this Old Geezer on a 'round the world' trip to set a watch to read Zulu time. But what makes sense to me may not make sense to anyone else! George Werth TIGHAR Member # 2630 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:30:57 From: Marcus Lind Subject: Re: Flying in the Electra For Hue Miller: Thank you for your kind reply... yes, it was really a rare and precious experience... absolutely unforgettable! About the noise. When we took off, i was in the rear ("FN's ") cabin; it was already pretty noise - probably more noisy then in any jet I ever flew in, but still quite compatible to some big old turboprop planes i had some experience in (and those ones were really noisy!). In flight, i was allowed to occupy for some time with right pilot's seat (to move to the forward cabin, you should "sneak" on your belly over the big fuselage tank - just like in AE's aircraft). In the cabin, i found the roar very powerful - just deafening - so if even the pilot, from whom i was just in one foot, would just yell right into my ear, only then (possibly) i would understand something. So I tried with earphones on; and it was certainly more comfortable; at least i could hear and understand the pilot; but still, it was very noisy... if to compare with something - i'd say, probably, to be in forward cabin with phones on was like in rear cabin - without phones... maybe like this... Still, i greatly enjoyed every second of that ride in this beautiful historical plane. To fly in "AE's" airplane, in her Birthday, over her Birthplay House - it was something to remember! :-) Kind regards - LTM, Marcus Lind ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:04:23 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Newspaper archives access For Hue Miller: Hue, I do a lot of genealogy and I have never had the slightest problem. Libraries and the newspaper office alike are more than cooperative. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:05:09 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Newspaper archive access Many newspapers have been microfilmed or digitized, and are often stored in local libraries with easy access. Some are available on-line at ancestry.com. Dan Postellon TIGHAR 2263 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:37:05 From: Lawrence Glazer Subject: Re: Newspaper archives In my State (Michigan), you can find microfilm archives of most daily newspapers at major libraries. Our State Library in Lansing has archives of dailies from even the smallest cities. So, check with the closest large library - particularly university libraries. They should have microfilms of your State's major dailies. You can read these on a microfilm reader, also available at the library. LTM, LG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:11:59 From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Newspaper archives access Call the newspaper. Ask for the morgue or archives. Ask the person who answers the phone what their procedures are. Follow the procedures. It's that simple. LTM, who's been in many a morgue Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:04:07 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: Newspaper archive access The LA Times has an online archive access, and some articles back to I think 1989 are quickly available. If the archivist needs to do research in their files, it costs money, per hour. The New York Times can be accessed for free thru your library back to the 1890s. Many papers do not have archives available, but you can request micro film copies of the years you want from interlibrary sources. Takes time. Ron B ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:37:55 From: Bob Lee Subject: Re: DST Bravo Karen. I stand totally corrected and finally found decisive information that confirms that. From 1928 through 1937 DST was observed starting in April on the Sunday that falls after the 25th of the month -- the last Sunday of April at 2:00 -- 1 hour shift. As if you needed me to confirm.... Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:13:49 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Newspaper archives Also in Michigan, http://www.mel.org has some on-line, but only for Michigan residents. They ask for a driver's license or similar number. Dan Postellon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:40:27 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: Flying in the Electra Marcus, just another question. Do you feel keeping them on all the time, would have been necessary to protect your hearing? ( But i supppose these were modern ones with the rubber cushions, and not the hard plastic basic headphone from the 1930s, which were not as effective at shutting down noise. ) Thanks- Hue ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:47:53 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Flying in the Electra Hue Miller wrote, >Marcus, just another question. >Do you feel keeping them on all the time, would have been necessary >to protect your hearing? ( But i supppose these were modern ones with >the rubber cushions, and not the hard plastic basic headphone from the >1930s, which were not as effective at shutting down noise. ) >Thanks- Hue Haven't I read they stuffed cotton in their ears? LTM, who liked her earplugs. ************************************** Yes, in news reel footage you can actually see them removing it as the get out of the airplane. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:40:37 From: Marcus Lind Subject: Re: Flying in the Electra Hue, Thank you for your kind reply. Answering your question: yes, I certainly felt that keeping the headphones on all the time would have been necessary to protect my hearing; at least when in forward cabin - it is definitely, for sure. Yes, as far as i can remember these headphones in 2004 were modern ones - with the comfortable soft rubber cushions... Kind regards - LTM, Marcus Lind ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 07:19:20 From: Pete Backlund Subject: Re: New post loss message I don't know if there is any useful new information here, but I have a reprint of the Chicago Herald and Examiner for July 5, 1937. Summarized from an AP article from Honolulu and another from Los Angeles, both datelined July, 4. The Coast Guard reported it heard a man's voice or a woman's voice with at cold at 7:01 a.m. Chicago time. Also some unidentified signals later. The report was not clear on which frequency was used. Los Angeles radio amateur, Walter McMenamy and Katl Pierson, reportedly picked up a voice repeating Earhart's call letters KHAQQ and SOS at 8:00 a.m. Chicago time. It faded about 8:30 a.m. Apparently on 6210 kHz Some mysterious squealing noises were heard on 3105 kc at 2:30 a.m. Sunday, Chicago time. They were heard by PAA, the Coast guard, and a Navy station. Not strong enough to get a DF bearing. I imagine this paper is on microfilm somewhere. Pete ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:37:44 From: Hue Miller Subject: Canton Island crash I read in Tracks 22 #2 that "navy divers judged the wreck too dangerous to salvage". This refers to the B-24 crash and sinking to a depth of 30 feet. Certainly this is kind of a periperal question, but i am wondering why the question of salvage came up at all. What would be worth recovering from a crashed US plane, and that after weeks under water? Recovering enemy planes is another matter, if looking for code books on the larger planes, or radar equipment. -Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:47:48 From: Pat Thrasher Subject: New report on website I've just finished putting up the report on the zipper we found at the Seven Site. Here's the URL: http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/NikuV/Analysis_and_Reports/ Zipper/Zipper.html Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:40:11 From: Mona Kendrick Subject: Re: New report on website Sounds like the zipper is too heavy for women's slacks, but Ric has said it doesn't look heavy enough for jackets. AE's work coveralls spring to mind. I'll look for photos tonight. --Mona ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:46:27 From: Mona Kendrick Subject: Re: New report on website OK, here's what I've got so far: photos b11f4i36 and b11f4i57 in the Purdue e-archive, taken in Natal, Brazil, show AE in her half-unzipped work coveralls. They appear to show a zipper pull, but there's not enough resolution to tell much about it. FN also had coveralls, which he had made in Fortaleza (Last Flight, page 69), but I don't know whether his were zippered. I've not found any photos of him wearing them. LTM, who says it's an awfully quiet week when you have to reply to your own self! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:30:04 From: Rick Jones Subject: Ric's Picks Paul Rafford, Jr., the former Pan Am radio engineer has a book coming out this fall "Amelia Earhart's Radio--Why She Disappeared". I believe it is available now for downloading ( http://www.specialbooks.com/aeradio.htm ) The promo says: "In this book you'll find 65 year-old interviews by the author. These are from two dozen men who were there at the 30 stops Amelia Earhart made around the world, and they tell a much different story." Has Ric (or anyone else) seen a preview or review of the book? Rick J ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:31:18 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Ric's picks Rick Jones says >Paul Rafford, Jr., the former Pan Am radio engineer has a book >coming out this fall "Amelia Earhart's Radio--Why She >Disappeared". I believe it is available now for downloading >( http://www.specialbooks.com/aeradio.htm ) The promo says: "In >this book you'll find 65 year-old interviews by the author. These >are from two dozen men who were there at the 30 stops Amelia >Earhart made around the world, and they tell a much different story." > >Has Ric (or anyone else) seen a preview or review of the book? Rafford has been around the Wonderful World of Amelia for a loooong time. His opinions and assumptions have been quoted in numerous books. This book is being hawked by Doug Westfall who runs the Paragon Agency, a small California publishing house that specializes in history books. His aviation history titles include: Discovery of Flight 19 The Greatest Aviation Mystery of America By Jon F. Myhre Amelia Earhart Survived Her Return to America By Col. Rollin C. Reineck USAF The Hunt For Amelia Earhart America's Greatest Search By Douglas Westfall (himself) In describing Rafford's book, Westfall says, "The interviews, research, and testing that Paul had done over the past six decades, overwhelmingly convinced me that he was correct, Earhart had deliberately made changes to her aircraft, engines, and radio; but why? This book tells of the exchange of airplanes in Miami, replacement of engines in Bandoeng, and significant modifications of her radio, in order to allow her to fly under the radio-network that existed in 1937." What more do you need to know? LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:14:06 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Ric's picks I, like many here have read Rafford from long ago and I echo Ric's comments. Don't waste the time or money. If, by chance you do, read very critically. By that I mean that for every point made ask what the support is. Referring to other books is not support. Citing no contemporary oral testimony is not support. If you want to know what support is read tom King's "Shoes" and Ric's book. Long did a tremendous amount of research but I don't know where he got a lot of his information. It made good reading though. I've chatted with him on the phone and he is certainly a nice person and a good listener. I did not question him on anything because too much of the Earhart story is just too difficult to pin down. TIGHAR is still doing a phenomenal job but there's a long way to go. I have been totally tied up helping my son recover from extensive surgery but still find a little time to chase rabbit trails. Most are curiosities but some either are significant or could prove to be so. I'll give you an example. Twenty minutes out of twenty hours seems like an issue not worth wasting time on. Maybe so but little significances sometimes turn out to be bigger than thought. Here you can point to the zipper. Manufactured possibly right on the cusp of time -- 1937 or 1938. The leaning as I understand with a cursory look is 1937. But back to the twenty minutes. Many will quickly realize I'm talking about take off time at Lae which happens to be pat of my conversation with Mr. Long. With one exception every writer says 10:00 local Lae time. One suggestion for reasoning was that it was 0000 GCT making it easier on the navigator. Nonsense. I piloted and navigated the oceans for twenty years. Start time made no difference. Just not a controlling reason. One writer, Doris Rich, said 10:22 on page 267 of "Amelia Earhart" but did not support the source clearly. Page 267 says, "At 10:22 on the morning of July 2, at Lae, the heavily laden Electra lumbered down the runway for a "hair-raising" takeoff, earthbound until the last fifty yards." What she wrote in her cite was: Takeoff: Collins, Tales of an Old Air-Faring Man, 147-48. Harry Balfour: ibid. I don't have Collins book so I don't know what pages 147-48 say and I don't have any comment attributed to Balfours saying takeoff was 10:22. The cites may have nothing to do with the time but only in the description of the takeoff. If anyone has Collins book please tell me what is said on those pages. OK, but the bottom line is what significance? Well, for one thing it could mean she had 22 minutes more at the end of the flight to better prepare her landing at Niku. It could mean 22 minutes more fuel than we thought. It could mean 22 more minutes to search for Howland. It could have been a 22 minute sigh of relief. Well, a little sigh. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:51:49 From: Dennis O. McGee Subject: Re: Ric's picks Ric quotes Westfall saying: " . . . .significant modifications of her radio, in order to allow her to fly under the radio-network that existed in 1937." In order to fly under the "radio network" (whatever that's suppose to be) in 1937 I think the only modification you'd need would be an on-off switch. :-) LTM, who enjoys being turned on Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:54:06 From: Tom Doran Subject: Post loss messages, a question Has anyone ever charted all the reported post-loss messages to compare what was heard at what time and place? What I'm thinking of is something like a spreadsheet. Each column would be a listener, such as Navy radioman on Wake, Itasca radioman, PanAm pilot leaving Honolulu, Toronto housewife, Florida teenager, etc. Each row would be time such as 0100 ZULU, 0200 ZULU, 0300 ZULU, etc. (as best as can be determined). Each field would have the message received, such as "Must be over you." If two or more people report a similar message at about the same time, it could help authenticate the report. Similar phrases heard at different times could also help. There are only so many ways to say, "We're on an unknown atoll, come get us." It seems improbable that people thousands of miles apart would think of the same hoax at the same time. Tom Doran, #2796 ************************************* Short answer: yes. Randy Jacobson did an enormous database of every known official message, and it was of great help in writing Finding Amelia. A chronologically sorted pdf of that database is on the DVD that accompanies the book. We have added to that DB with the various non-official messages. Perhaps Ric will have time to weigh in on this more completely. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:54:24 From: Mike Piner Subject: Re: Ric's picks Alan Caldwell said "22 minutes more...." This is good point. It could mean 45 or 50 miles further west than when she thought she should have been at Howland. This same subject has puzzled me since I have been priveledged to be a member. Why didnt Amelia voice "sunrise at such and such time" or did she and it was not heard. LTM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:20:40 From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: Post loss messages, a question Tom Doran wrote: >Has anyone ever charted all the reported post-loss messages to >compare what was heard at what time and place? > >What I'm thinking of is something like a spreadsheet. I have been to the mountain (TIGHAR Central) and have seen the sacred scroll with my own eyes. It must have been at least 20 feet long--maybe longer. It was printed in color on fanfold paper. I think the scale was in hours, covering five or six days. Along the bottom were the (estimated) tides at Niku, shown on their own scale (solid blue, rising and falling every 12 hours). In the body were all of the post-loss messages. The results are all in Finding Amelia by Ric Gillespie. http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/guild.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:35:53 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: post loss messages, a question In answer to Tom Doran's question: >Has anyone ever charted all the reported post-loss messages to >compare what was heard at what time and place? Pat writes: >Perhaps Ric will have time to weigh in on this more completely. Many years of work have gone into analyzing and evaluating the post-loss messages and the process used to determine the credibility of a given reported reception is far more sophisticated than comparing its content with other reported messages. There are a number of research papers by Bob Brandenburg posted on the TIGHAR website. See, for example, http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/49_PostLossSignals/49_PostLossSignals.htm http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/50_RDFAnalysis/50_RDFAnalysis.htm http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/51_TidalStudy/51_TidalStudy.htm But your question points up a problem. Bob's papers are highly technical, as they must be, but as such they are beyond the ken of many casual readers and their significance is, therefore, not apparent. The challenge is to find a way to present the data in ways that make them accessible to the average reader. We're working on that. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:54:27 From: Pat Gaston Subject: Paul Collins book Alan Caldwell wrote: >I don't have Collins book so I don't know what pages 147-48 say and I >don't have any comment attributed to Balfours saying takeoff was >10:22. The cites may have nothing to do with the time but only in the >description of the takeoff. If anyone has Collins book please tell >me what is said on those pages. I have the book, which was published posthumously in 1983. The Earhart chapter is only 6 pages long, and it contradicts the time given by Rich. Only mention of the Lae takeoff is the following sentence on Page 148: "Since the flight commenced in the morning at 10 a.m. and the desired course was east, the sun would have served as a general navigational aid even without reference to the magnetic compass." [Collins is here discussing the Saipan theory as advanced by Briand. His point is that, even if the compass had failed, FN could tell east from north simply by looking out the window.] There is nothing about Balfour, 10:22 am, or the takeoff roll. Rich's footnote is either mistaken or incomplete. Rich's description of the "hair-raising" takeoff roll may be taken from Jim Collopy's 8/28/1937 report to the New Guinea Civil Aviation Board, which contains the following graf: "The take-off was hair-raising as after taking every yard of the 1000 yard runway from the north west end of the aerodrome towards the sea, the aircraft had not left the ground 50 yards from the end of the runway." Pat Gaston ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:53:08 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Paul Collins' book Pat, great job. I was hoping someone would come through and as you pointed out my suspicions were correct. Once again, everyone should pay attention closely to Pat Gaston's response. He shows what many of us have said over and over, DO NOT take what you read for the Gospel, except maybe the Gospels. Not only is there no support for 10:22 but even the 10:00 is unclear AND it was not Balfour she was sort of paraphrasing but instead it was Collopy. I say the 10:00 comment was unclear because the Collin's quote was that "the flight commenced at 10 a.m..........." I like things far more precise as Pat will understand. I want to hear, "The plane broke ground at whatever time." Lifted off, started takeoff roll, etc. Departed, commenced, etc. doesn't cut it. Thanks greatly Pat. what an awesome group this is. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:16:20 From: Mona Kendrick Subject: Re: New report on website >OK, here's what I've got so far: photos b11f4i36 and b11f4i57 in the Purdue e-archive, taken in Natal, Brazil, show AE in her half-unzipped work coveralls. They appear to show a zipper pull, but there's not enough resolution to tell much about it. FN also had coveralls, which he had made in Fortaleza (Last Flight, page 69), but I don't know whether his were zippered. I've not found any photos of him wearing them. After posting the above comments, I received the latest Tighar Tracks in the mail. I see AE's coveralls are out of the running as a source for 2-8-S-3 because photo analysis shows the pull to be the wrong shape. I guess we can eliminate FN's coveralls from consideration as well, since 2-8-S-3 predates any Talon zippers that could have been exported to Brazil. Has Tighar Central already looked at all the photos in the Purdue collection for images of FN's jacket, besides the one shown in Tighar Tracks? If not, I can volunteer. LTM, who likes to coverall her bases. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:03:17 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New report on website Mona Kendrick writes, >Has Tighar Central already looked at all the photos in the Purdue >collection for images of FN's jacket, besides the one shown in >Tighar Tracks? If not, I can volunteer. Thanks Mona. I've looked and I can find only one other photo of Fred with a jacket and he's carrying it. Can't see the zipper pull. Logically, he'd need a jacket for the same reason AE needed a jacket (aside from maintaining her image). Even near the equator it gets chilly at 10,000 feet. Trouble is, Fred apparently only wore the jacket when there was nobody around to take his picture. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:06:14 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: New report on website What about FN's jacket, seen in a recent Tracks photo, he appears with a jacket folded over his arm, and it looks like a zipper pull on it. -Hue Miller