Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 09:42:44 From: Tom King Subject: Copper "window" screen Here's a question for the all-knowing Forum. At the Seven Site, we've found a number of pieces of copper (or perhaps brass) hardware cloth, about the gauge of window screen. The pieces are generally rectangular, often relatively narrow strips (say, 2-3 inches wide, 6-7 inches long. They often have tears and holes on one edge, suggesting they were cut out of a frame to which they were originally affixed using nails or screws. Setting aside the question of where on the island they may have originated (we're looking into this) and the question of why they're cut the way they are (a worthy question, but not the one I want to ask right now), what I'm asking the Forum's advice on is: what might such screening have been used for in the 1930s-40s (or maybe 50s)? Windowscreen would seem a strange use for copper, during World War II at least, so I'm wondering about more specialized applications. Perhaps a maritime use (and thus perhaps associated with the Norwich City)? Perhaps something to do with the water desalinators used by the colonial work party in the early days of the Nikumaroro colony? Perhaps something to do with Loran? Any ideas will be much appreciated. LTM (who loves screen tests) Tom ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 17:05:38 From: Mike Everette Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen I wonder if this material could possibly have come from the LORAN station? It's possible that the building housing the transmitters (especially) might have had screened windows for ventilation, as there would have been very considerable heat generated inside by the equipment. There might have also been a "screen room" somewhere around that site for maintenance purposes, to shield the test gear from RF interference generated by the high power transmitter. In such a case, the screening would most likely be copper. Has anyone ever taken a trek to that site for a look-around? It might answer some questions. Is anything still there? LTM (who despises flies and bugs) and 73 Mike E. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 17:16:58 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen Tom, there are a number of URLs on the Net offering screen of brass or copper. One sells rolls around 3 inches wide for blocking insects, rodents and such. the comment is: "Keep small birds, bats, rodents and insects from getting through the cracks with CopperBlocker Pest Excluder. It's a soft, pure copper mesh cloth that is packed into openings to keep out all kinds of unwanted pests. The ability to fill voids of all kinds and pack tightly makes CopperBlocker perfect for access control. Use CopperBlocker for snail & slug control around gardens, planters, etc." Could have been used on the ship to block rats from crooks and crannies. Alan ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 19:43:25 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen For Mike Everette John Clauss went over the Loran site in 2001 specifically looking for stuff like what we were finding at the Seven Site, and came back with no screening. We know that they had windowscreen; the CO had a screened porch on his quonset. I just have a hard time imagining it being copper during the war, but if there was some specific reason for it, related to the station's mission, that would be another matter. LTM (who's resisting the urge to screen) ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 20:55:03 From: Mike Piner Subject: Screen Dr King The very first use of window screen to keep flies out in the late thirties was copper.Only when WW2 came along did they try to use treated steel, then came plastic.There probably was lots of copper screen avail before the change from copper took hold. One use to come fromthe strips of screen, might have been roasting crabs, or other things, by the CG personnel. LTM ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 20:55:31 From: Dennis Mcgee Subject: Copper screening A "number of" non-ferrous metal screening-type material approximately 2-3 inches by 4-6 inches. I agree, it doesn't sound it was window screen, whether copper or brass. How about the innards of some type of filter?? If it was a filter, whatever particles it was stopping had to be fairly large, even if several layers of this stuff was used. So, I'd doubt if it was a gasoline/oil type of filter that might be used on a diesel/gas generator. Staying on the filter theme, are the pieces reletively flat, i.e. not having been obviously crumbled, folded, bent, spindled, etc.?? Could it be a filter type that would require several layers of this material stacked one atop the other to perform an initial purifying step? Perhaps a filter from a portable commercially produced water filtering device. In Niku's environment, I'd think you be most concerned about filtering out the big chucks -- with the little stuff you take your chances and hope for the best. LTM, Dennis o. McGee #0149 ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 20:56:23 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen Tom, copper screening is used for RF grounding (of transmitters) in boat hulls and also, to line enclosures (rooms) which shield delicate radio equipment from outside RF interference. I wouldn't be surprised if a USCG LORAN station had rolls of the stuff. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 21:30:37 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen I remember copper window screening in the 1950's. It does not rust, and was used before fiberglass screens were available. I'm not sure why they did not use stainless steel or aluminum. Also gasoline cans oten had a small copper screen as part of a filter, but I guess that that would be smaller than what you are looking for, Dan Postellon TIGHAR#2263 ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 21:42:02 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen I would be very surprised to learn that the LORAN station had ANY copper screen material. Grounding for the transmitter antenna system would be by a bunch of wires radiating out from the tower and under the soil by only a couple inches, and maybe some even running into the water. All the equipment had metal cabinets. Receiving for communications with the world would still get a large input signal from the LORAN transmitter via the receiving system antenna; thus a screened room would be pointless. ( In fact, i almost wonder if the LORAN had to be turned off, for them to communicate via shortwave with their center. ) -Hue Miller ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 21:45:28 From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: Screen > From Mike Piner: > One use to > come fromthe strips of screen, might have been roasting crabs, or > other things, by the CG personnel. I wonder how practical that would have been. The flexibility of the material. Plus, wouldn't the constant high temperature damage the screen wiring? -Hue Miller ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:19:59 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen Tom, take a look at this URL and see if your screen looks anything like this. Alan http://www.nixalite.com/copperblockeraccesscontrol.aspx ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:42:20 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen For Alan Caldwell Thanks, Alan. "Copperblocker" LOOKS similar to what we have, but I'm not sure ours would crush and pack together as well as copperblocker does, and none of the pieces we've found have in fact been crushed up (very much). On the other hand, a lot of them have holes and tears that suggest attachment to a frame -- like what we have are the edges of a sheet that was nailed to a frame, the center of the sheet then having been cut out. Learning that copper screening was about the only kind available before the War is very useful, and puts a new spin on things. We know that there was screen at the Loran station (we just haven't found any, so can't be sure what kind it was), and if it was pre-War screening maybe it HAD to be copper. Particularly if it had some electrical application. On the other hand, it's imaginable that the stuff was used to exclude small pests, like the rats and small crabs that abound at the Seven Site. Thanks to everyone who's contributing to this thread. I'm collecting all the ideas for further reference. LTM (who thinks this is really a mesh) ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:13:12 From: Tom Doran Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen << From Tom King for Alan Caldwell I'm not sure ours would crush and pack together as well as copperblocker does>> Soft copper such as wire or flexible tubing becomes stiff after exposure to the environment. I'd expect that after a few decades on the island the screen would have become fairly brittle. Tom Doran, #2796 ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:11:10 From: Mike Everette Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen > I just have a hard time imagining it > being copper during the war, but if there was some specific reason > for it, related to the station's mission, that would be another matter. A lot of copper was used during WW2 for military purposes. Some, we might think of today as "frivolous," yet during the war were relatively common. Think on this: Much mil-spec gear of WW2 vintage was way-overbuilt, and cost was no object. Indeed, some US Navy radios were built with solid copper (not plated or anodized) chassis, panels and cabinets; the National mfg. RAS-5 receiver is an example I am well familiar with (I have actually seen one, stripped of all paint; it's a work of art) Other radio equipment used copper cabinets only. Some enclosures were made of solid copper sheet; others were copper plated. I've seen other National mfg receivers with evidence of copper under the paint, as well as some E. H. Scott mfg radios.. I have encountered much use of copper screening for shielding in WW2 US Navy communications transmitters. The Westinghouse mfg. TBW is but one example. The TDE shipboard transmitter is another. I would not at all be surprised to learn that such screening/shielding was used in the LORAN gear; it was probably made by R-E-L (Radio Engineering Laboratories). Maybe someone can come up with a manual for it.... At the LORAN station I would not have been surprised to find screening used for shielding and grounding purposes outside the transmitter itself. There would have been a huge amount of RF energy floating around, as that transmitter ran tremendous pulse power input. If no screening was found in 2001, it could perhaps be due to earlier "salvage" or scavenging efforts. LTM (who remembers steel pennies from 1943) and 73 Mike E. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:12:08 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen Mike Everette wrote > At the LORAN station I would not have been surprised to find > screening used for shielding and grounding purposes outside the > transmitter itself. There would have been a huge amount of RF > energy floating around, as that transmitter ran tremendous pulse > power input. If no screening was found in 2001, it could perhaps > be due to earlier "salvage" or scavenging efforts. Yes. The presence of shreds of copper screening so close to a big RF operation like Gardner's double master LORAN is no surprise at all. If these shreds seem to have been part of a larger piece mounted on a frame, this could plausibly have come from some kind of an RF screening/shielding enclosure for radio gear. Mind, they beached a massive amount of supplies and gear to build that station in 1944 and conditions there were a bit harsh, so nor would I be surprised if Ensign Charlie Sopko used some extra rolls of the stuff to screen off the porch of his quonset hut. Lastly, since copper screening is so handy (for stuff like filtering), it would also be no surprise to find shreds of it which were later cut up and dispersed nearby. This isn't to say it came from the LORAN station, only that it likely did. This said, only for the sake of utterly wild speculation, is there any hint of copper screening installed aboard the Electra for either shielding or grounding? Then there's the Norwich City, which had radio gear (copper screening is not only handy for shielding, but for many and sundry electrical grounding tasks). Isn't the water tank from Fiji close by where these cut strips were found? ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 09:13:06 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen For William Webster-Garman <> It's from Tarawa (Has "Tarawa Police" written on the sides), doubtless via the Ritiati village, but yes, it's close by. Assuming the screen is from the Loran Station, its presence on the Seven Site may give us some indication of what people were doing there during the thus-far poorly understood post-War period. I wonder if it has something to do with coconut planting. There appear to have been coconuts planted there (evidence: regularly spaced small holes in the ground), and it occurs to me that a seed coconut would be a pretty attractive treat for a coconut crab. Perhaps to protect the nuts when you're planting at a distance from the village where you can't keep an eye on them, you'd try to build some sort of exclusion device using a wood frame and screening. Maybe.... LTM (who discourages jokes about crabs and nuts) ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:23:38 From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Copper screening The more posts I read about this stuff the more I come to the conclusion that the answer may be hidden in the size of the screens. Are they all of equal size, i.e. uniformity in size would indicate industrial manufacturing, whereas many different sizes would indicate hand fabrication, thus possibly a temporary or impromptu usage. Judging by the sizes Tom King reports, I wouldn't associate this stuff with "rolls" of shielding for RF equipment, grounding straps, etc., as it would seem to be way too narrow and too thin. To me, "rolls" of copper screen would resemble present day window screen and come in widths of 30-48 inches, not the 2 to 4 inches Tom reports. If our stuff had been cut from rolls of screens it might be obvious by comparing the sizes of the our stuff, inconsistant sizes would indicate manual vs. mechanical sizing, thus a clue for its intended purpose. Additionally, and I'm probably wrong about this, wouldn't ground straps for RF equipment be considerably thicker and beefier? In my mind, the strap would be similar to a length of cooper screen rolled into a tube and then flattened to create, literally, a strap. LTM, who prefers gold to copper Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:37:36 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Copper screening For Dennis McGee -- The pieces we've found are clearly "hand-fabricated" in the sense of having been cut and/or ripped by hand (or knife, scissors, etc.) off a larger sheet. The mesh itself was, of course, machine made. Our pieces are of irregular size, though usually more or less rectangular in shape, often strip-like. None is a complete, machine-made piece. TK ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:36:45 From: Rick Jones Subject: Amelia Video Here is a link to a short 2 minute video featuring Ric. http://video.msn.com/video.aspx/?mkt=en-us&vid=12446e76-8ead-4a16-9ab0- 942a20670f5d&wa=wsignin1.0 LTM Rick J http://tinyurl.com/3cxl6d ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:19:23 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Copper screening For Dennis McGee Both ground straps and screens were (and still are) used for grounding. Screens were (and still are) used to shield large spaces containing gear. I always interpreted Tom's description of the scraps as thin strips more or less crudely cut by hand from a larger sheet of copper screen, which in turn would have come of one of the "rolls" I referred to. Still not much doubt in my mind there would have been coppper screening beached with the LORAN supplies in 1944. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 15:36:57 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: copper "window" screen I would have guessed fltering bugs and leaves out of collected rain water. Dan P. > From Tom ...you'd try to build some sort of exclusion device using > a wood frame and screening. Maybe.... LTM (who discourages jokes > about crabs and nuts) ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:21:09 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen Dan Postellon wrote: > I would have guessed fltering bugs and leaves out of collected rain > water. Could be, if maybe the middle of a sheet was used for this purpose and what we've found are the cut-off fringes. TK ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 18:07:00 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Copper screening Tom, have you given thought to asking the web site I gave you for an opinion on your screen pieces? Alan ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 18:07:32 From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Copper screening Thanks to Tom King and William Webster-Garman for their explanations. It clears up several things for me. LTM, who can see clearly now Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 18:07:57 From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Amelia video This appears to be an extract of the 1991 National Press Club speech that I attended and first became involved in with TIGHAR. Note that Ric had light-brown hair back then! Oh...to be young again. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 18:08:26 From: Mike Piner Subject: Re: Copper screening I might guess that what you're finding is what was cut off and discarded. The middle portion was what was used for some of the "uses" mentioned. The larger middle portion were saved and went back with the container. But why was it at the "7 site"? LTM ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 18:08:56 From: Mike Everette Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen One very excellent reason for using screening in the LORAN station, especially on the transmitter, would be to keep bugs, rodents and snakes out of the equipment. Besides these creatures being at risk for getting zapped, and more than likely knocking the system off the air, they can and often do make a "melluva hess" when they "expire" from high voltage. Been there, seen it I once worked in a 50,000 watt AM station; one night a very large moth somehow got into the transmitter. When he "buzzed" between two cone insulators atop a filter capacitor, Sha-ZAM! It took almost 5 minutes (dead air) to clean the "residue" out of the power supply, to prevent further flash-overs. And you don't wanna know what happened when a small black snake found a way inside... LTM (who says the only good snake is a dead one) and 73 Mike E. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 18:44:44 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Copper screening For Alan Caldwell <> I hadn't thought of that, Alan, but thanks; it's a good idea. LTM (who always appreciates being reminded to ask) ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 18:52:58 From: Bob Lee Subject: Re: Copper screen Here's a site with some great photos, perhaps this can help move the ball forward: http://www.twpinc.com and follow the 'copper' and 'rfi shielding' links on the left. Bob ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 11:02:20 From: Mike Piner Subject: Re: Copper screening I found a Company that has been in business for over 80 years, which can possibly give a history of Wire screen. Belleville Wire Cloth, Inc; Cedar Grove NJ, www.bwire.com. They might have ideas on what was used during WW2. LTM ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 11:32:59 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen For Tom King I guess most of the uses for copper screening would be linked with "exclusion"... of RF, coconut crabs, insects, even dirt and dust from liquids or air (as a filter or barrier). Shoving strips into holes bearing coconut seeds is a helpful guess. I asked about the water tank because I can imagine putting a framed screen over a small tank which holds hard-to-get drinking water (to keep crabs, spiders, leaves and whatnot from tumbling in) although it wouldn't be much of an evaporation barrier. Maybe the strips were meant to be layered one upon the other as a (replacement?) water filter of some kind for a rain catcher. Any doubts about the use of layered screening for filtering water can be banished by taking apart the little screw-on aerator found at the business end of most kitchen and bathroom water taps. This is all wild guessing though and I'd like to know if the stuff's truly copper. If it were, there would be a heightened (but still so very, very far- fetched) chance it came from the Electra's RF installation, although (if it's copper) the screening did more than likely originate at the nearby LORAN station in 1944. The seven site is truly baffling. LTM, who screened for clues now and then. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 21:07:54 From: Ed Lyon Subject: Re: Copper screening Hue, and forum: There was a Loran station on Johnston Island (700 mi southwest of Hawaii) and when the USAF decided to put a communications station there in 1958, for the nuclear bomb trials, they installed the antenna for it on the same side of the island that housed the Loran site. (We, who installed an OTH radar on Johnston at the same time, as well as a communications facility working at HF, chose the farthest end of the island for our stuff. The USAF comm station had arc-overs in their receiver RF front-ends, which, although not hurting the tubes in the receivers, burned the coils and capacitors to a crisp. We ended up carrying all the USAF radio traffic for several months while they redesigned their site. Ed Lyon ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 08:46:16 From: Terry Thorgaard Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen Ok, I count 30 posts concerrning this. Very Interesting, and all, but what, pray tell, does it have to do with resolving the AE mystery? Loran station era, or maybe colonist, but not AE/FN. Shall we get back on track please? ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 09:42:27 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Copper "window" screening For Terry Thorgaard Terry, I don't mean to be pushy, but I think I need to explain something to you about archaeological research. Archaeologists don't have crystal balls; we don't know ahead of time just what we may find in a site that will tell us what we need/want to know. So we try to figure out the whole site -- how what we see on and in the ground today got there in the past; what human activities and natural forces it represents. The Seven Site is where we think, though we're not sure, that the bones were found in 1940. We think, though we're not sure, that the bones may have been Earhart's. So we're studying the Seven Site. On the Seven Site we've found a bunch of stuff -- shellfish, animal bones, fire features, a button, a zipper pull, maybe parts of a compact, some bottles some wire, some cartridges, some rusted metal, etc. And some pieces of screening. We know that things have happened at the Seven Site other than the croaking of a castaway -- Coast Guardsmen have shot at things, colonists have caught water, and so forth. In figuring out whether we have any evidence of Earhart and/or Noonan at the Seven Site, we need to try to figure out what stuff is attributable to what activities, and to what groups. We need to understand the Coast Guard activity and the colonist activity at the site, because (a) we have to sort their leavings from those of the castaway, and because (b) they may have affected whatever the castaway left. So figuring out what the screening may have been used for, and by whom, and when, is absolutely "on track." It can help us understand the Seven Site and hence, perhaps, determine who the castaway was. Thanks to those thirty posts you scorn, I for one have a whole lot better idea where the screening most probably came from (probably the Loran station), when (probably post-WWI), and what it was used for (probably screening the top of the water tank). That's very helpful to the overall research effort, and I really appreciate the attention that the Forum has given to the matter. LTM (who counsels patience, and is urging me not to be any more irritating than I've already been) ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 11:11:27 From: Mike Piner Subject: Re: Copper screening Thanks Dr King. We all get critiques from each other, mostly constructive. You gave a great outline on our site's archaeology. LTM- she sifted thing a lot ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 20:58:08 From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Copper "window" screen In view of the fact that the screening appears to have been fastened to some kind of frame at some point in time, I really like the idea that it may have been a cover for the water collection tank. How do the lengths of the strips we have compare with the dimensions of the tank? Ltm Jon 2266 ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 16:39:17 From: Dennis McGee Subject: O/T: Joining dissimilar metals I am involved in a project that will require me to permanently join aluminum and steel sheet metal. I know this is NOT a good idea but it is inescapable. If anyone out there can provide expert guidance on how to mitigate the anticipated galvanic reaction, please email me Dennis McGee at fhm0166@comcast.net with a subject line of "Galvanic reactions." Thanks in advance. LTM, an electrifying force, for sure! Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:16:55 From: Ted Campbell Subject: The Seven Site I was re-reading Dr. King's 3/8/08 reply to a message concerning the value of pinning down a use/source of wire screening and it occurred to me that the seven site seems to be unique in other ways. The TIGHAR team has found an abundance of stuff around the site: Organic remnants i.e. shellfish, animal bones, etc. various fire features, bottles, zippers, water collector, rusted metal, etc. What I would like to know is, what makes this site so unique on the island? If we were to take a step back and look at the bigger picture of the island is there something that stands out on/in/around this site that sets it apart from other areas of the island? For example, could this place have been used as a dump? Does it have a unique air flow pattern that would keep dump odors away from the village and/or the Loran station? Does it have a unique over wash/ tidal flow pattern that would be self cleaning? I am not suggesting that it was a dump area but using the term as an example of a magnet that drew people to the area. From what I've learned about the island it seems that it is broken down into fairly easily identifiable sites. You have the village, the Loran station, the lagoon passages, the coconut tree planting areas, etc. What is the purpose of the Seven site? Is it the highest elevation, is it remote enough to warrant a "get away from it all" tag, is it the best fishing spot on the island, does it rain more in this area of the island, etc.? Let's see if we can come up with ideas of why would anyone want to go to the seven site and spend time there. These suggestions just may lead to idea generation that points us into a new direction and future discoveries. Ted Campbell ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:13:06 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: The Seven Site For Ted Campbell Given that others will also respond to you, my understanding is that the seven site has one of the higher elevations on the island along with some of the coolest temperatures owing to sea breezes, quick access to both the lagoon and the beach (with opportunities for and evidence of shellfish harvesting) along with tree cover. Moreover, the site can be used to watch for shipping to the north of the island. It's a relatively short walk from the LORAN station site and as I recall, coasties have said they held target practice there (of the can plinking kind, I glark). A few years earlier, Gallagher may have had notions of building a "getaway" house there. It's not Santa Monica, but evidently one of the more habitable spots on Nikumaroro, so to speak. Of all the sites examined on Nikumaroro, this one seems the most likely to have been the place where Gilbertese colonists found the castaway's skeleton. There is also evidence of at least one attempt at planting cocoanut trees. Also, oddly, someone dragged a number of corrugated iron sheets from the debris of the 1890 Arundel cocoanut project at Nutrian (apparently a hot, nasty spot north across the western lagoon opening from the later British colonial era village) all the way to the seven site. When this was done is unknown, the sheets survive mostly as iron oxide powder and flakes. LTM, who had her hangouts ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:13:21 From: Tom King Subject: Re: The Seven Site Good question, Ted. The Seven Site is way too far from the village to be a dump, even if we had evidence to suggest the existence of an organized dump. Three miles or so is a long way to go to dump your (mostly organic, easily reduced) trash. What it does offer, and probably offered in the past, is easy access to the windward beach. Judging from our sat photos and historical airphotos, at least before it grew up in Scaevola it was pretty easy walking from the lagoon shore to the beach -- easier, very likely, than any place else along the NE side of the island. And the southeast end of the island, both to windward and to lee, seems to be a popular place for sea turtles to hang out and lay eggs. There MAY be good fishing in the tide pools on the reef flat, though we really don't have the comparative data to judge. Looking recently at photos taken by Charlie Sopko, the Loran station CO, I was surprised at the size of the fish they seemed to be taking out of the lagoon, presumably down at the SE end by the station, and hence close to the Seven Site. Finally, there's evidence that there were some big trees, likely kanawa, that were cut down in the area around about the time the bones were discovered. That said, it would also be a good place to get away from the bright lights and urban crush of frenzied downtown Ritiati. Why the land got reserved for Gallagher, and/or government, is another twist to the mystery. When we started kicking around what the screening was for, I fancied the idea of Gallagher spending time at the site not so much to look for bones as because, for some reason, it got good radio reception, with the screening used in an antenna array. We know he had quite a good personal wireless, and knew something about radio technology. The bones were found during the Battle of Britain back home; it's easy to imagine Gallagher being pretty frantic to bring in the BBC. But there's no reason I know of to think that the Seven Site is a real good place to pick up radio signals, and the Forum has pretty well convinced me that the simplest solution to the screen question is that it was used to cover the water tank. It may be that Gallagher saw the place as a good spot to experiment with trying to propagate different kinds of plants, though it's hard to see why doing this at a distance from the village would be a particularly good idea. LTM (who's as puzzled as the rest of us.) ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:50:32 From: Tom King Subject: Re: The Seven Site For William Webster-Garman > Given that others will also respond to you, my understanding is that > the seven site has one of the higher elevations on the island along > with some of the coolest temperatures owing to sea breezes, The Seven site isn't noticeably higher than other places along the windward side surge ridge, but it does get a nice breeze, and the other variables you mention are correct. Regarding the corrugated iron, Ric made a discovery this year that may help account for it. He found some embedded in the shore of the lagoon adjacent to the site. We're thinking that perhaps it was used as a sort of slipway, smoothing out rough spots in a path along which kanawa logs were moved down to the shore. LTM (who cautions that this is not a shore thing) ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:33:30 From: Ted Campbell Subject: Re: The Seven Site In your reply concerning the Seven Site you indicated that no evidence has been found to suggest that there was an organized dump on the island. Doesn't that seem to be a puzzle? I thought that with all the human activity on the island over the years it was inhabited, would have necessitated a place for people to dump their stuff. Broken glass, tin cans, junk machinery (after total cannibalization), and other non-organic waste is hard to get rid of. They could have taken it out to sea but because of the few people there at any one time it seems that it would have to set awhile (and stink) to accumulate to make this kind of dump trip efficient. Another suggestion in your reply concerns the issue of possible radio reception being better at the Seven Site. This is interesting. Was there another reason that the Loran station was located were it was other then the other end of the island being inhabited? I wonder if AE found that the site offered better radio reception, although I can't imagine what kind of radio gear she would/could have lugged out there. William Webster-Garman also brings up an interesting point in his reply and that is ship watching. Do we have a handle on the "standard shipping lanes" in and around these islands? Would the shipping lanes be used for exporting raw material from the islands to manufacturing centers or would they have been used primarily as island resupply and administrative support? Are these shipping lanes better seen from the Seven Site? Good brain food from the Seven Site. Ted Campbell ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:42:49 From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: The Seven Site > From: Ted Campbell > In your reply concerning the Seven Site you indicated that no > evidence has been found to suggest that there was an organized dump > on the island. Doesn't that seem to be a puzzle? I asked Emily about that in 2003. Roger has a set of notes about the interview, too. Here are my notes. No dump. Lots of recycling. Interesting note about hunting turtle nests and transplanting them elsewhere. +++++++++++++++++ Visit with Emily: She came to Fiji with Tofiga after H.S. in Tarawa to study nursing. Met her husband and stayed here ever since. She and her daughter both seemed to be touched by the presents from TIGHAR. Emily took out a handkerchief and dried away a few tears after looking at the photographs of her parents in TIGHAR Tracks. Tofiga's wife is a Pedro. She should know where Jack Pedro's son is. Emily thought that the structures identified as latrines in the photo of village were "small jails" for holding 2 or 3 prisoners. It was the prisoners who broke the coral into gravel for the roads. Emily also remembers a police station of some kind. When Emily was in the village, there were only four bures (native buildings). She lived in the third of the four. Her father's workshop was right behind the white man's house. Not far from the beach. When she was on Niku, there was only one boat house and one boat. The boat was always drawn up on the shore, even when it was fully loaded (?), and a man was always left to guard the boat. Her father never left the boat unattended. He was very strict and very responsible. The boat did not belong to him. The boat was not far from the workshop. WJ-15. Emily pointed to the same part of the reef that TIGHAR believes would have made a good landing zone when we were talking about where "airplane parts" were seen. Emily went around the island as much as five times with her father, hunting turtles. He sometimes caught as many as seven. When they were laying eggs, he could follow the tracks to their nest. He would take eggs and transplant them to beaches closer to home so that eventually turtles would nest all around the island. The turtles came in around the coastline, not in the lagoon. They would wait for the high tides to cross the reef. Emily was the oldest in the family. Her brother died. She got trained to do men's work. She learned how to plant coconut trees, and still does so at age 82. Her daughters are very proud of her independence and her skills. Little children were kept away from coffins as a sign of respect. The little box for the bones was rectangular. She does not know whether the top was hinged, but it seemed to open that way. There were handles at either end. Emily does not remember a dump. People burned things that could be burned. Her father and uncle would dig holes for fish bones and the like. They made use of everything. ++++++++++++++++++ LTM. Marty #2359 ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 19:13:59 From: Tom King Subject: Re: The Seven Site > Emily does not remember a dump. People burned things that > could be burned. Her father and uncle would dig holes for fish > bones and the like. They made use of everything. "Dumps" are just not much of a Pacific island tradition. Traditionally everything was biodegradable, so you could pretty much just toss it and forget it. Since things like aluminum cans have become common, this tendency has caused some real problems on some islands, and dumps are getting established, but in the '30s and '40s in a small village like the one on Ritiati, even in the spit-and- polish British colonial context, I'd expect what Emily describes to be exactly what would happen. A pit here, a pile there, but no formalized dump, and certainly no hauling the stuff to the other end of the island. TK ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:57:11 From: Tom Doran Subject: Underwater searching At Tom King's recent talk in Atlanta there was some brief discussion of searching underwater. He said the main obstacle to such a search was cost, somewhere near three million dollars. I was wondering what options, other than collecting $3M, might get some useful underwater work accomplished. One story recently in the news was about Odyssey Marine (www.shipwreck.net). They are a company based in Tampa which attempts to find and recover shipwrecks. Essentially, they are treasure hunters and have found a few famous wrecks which held substantial amounts of gold and silver. They make some noise about archeology but it's the gold they are really looking for. Nonetheless, they appear to have the equipment and technology to do deep sea recovery. They're said to have "state of the art" methods and hardware. As treasure hunters they're unlikely to move th4ir equipment half way around the world to go looking for the Electra, but I wonder whether they or someone similar might someday be in the neighborhood of Kiribati looking for gold and be available to spend a week around Niku? Are there any lost treasure ships in that part of the world? The treasure ship hunting I know about is mainly the search for Spanish wrecks that had been transporting New World gold back to Spain. I don't know of similar traffic in the South Pacific. Would there be any other kinds of wrecks a group such as Odyssey might go looking for? Another option might be to persuade the US or Australian navy to have a deep sea "training exercise" around Niku. Although a deep sea submersible would be nice, there are probably simpler, cheaper techniques capable of returning useful information. Some kind of sonar might be helpful with a remote camera to follow. Learning to distinguish between Electra parts and Norwich City debris would be a useful effort. Even though there is no near term prospect of the kind of money needed for exhaustive undersea work, it would be useful to have a proposal or plan on the shelf. Is there such a plan already? It would need to be prepared by someone who keeps up with the relevant technology. Such a plan would be very handy when Joe Billionaire walks in the door asking, "How can I help?" Tom Doran, 2796 ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:48:52 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Underwater searching Tom, let's say we got the money. Where would you search? The plane could have been swept off the reef and immediately sunk OR it could have floated away for an unknown time. Some have suggested as much as twenty minutes but that's a guess. It could have floated for almost any amount of time or just sunk. That makes a mighty big search area. In order to tackle such a job there has to be a very reasonable chance of finding the plane. This is not reasonable. If we knew it could not float away or be carried a long distance under water by currents then a search would be reasonable to either find it or eliminate the possibility. Just to add to the problem we THINK it landed in a certain spot but we don't know. Even if we are right, did they move it somewhere else? Alan ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:16:43 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Underwater searching For Tom Doran Tom, regarding Odyssey, I've worked with them and find them to be a quite responsible and thoughtful bunch, if you can just get past the fact that they sell some kinds of artifacts (Most archaeologists can't, unfortunately). Anyhow, they have some pretty remarkable technology for deep-water archaeology, and we asked them about employing it at Niku. They considered it and decided to give it a pass. Most of their work has been on the relatively flat sea bed, not on the steep slope of a mountain like the one underlying Niku, and for the most part they've been looking for relatively large objects (though they've shared some spectacular imagery with us of WWII aircraft on the bottom of the Mediterranean). They felt that we'd do better with a deep-diving but free-swimming manned submersible. They reached this conclusion only a couple of months ago, and with all the other things going on, we haven't had time to do more than sort of mull it over. Alan Caldwell's points are well taken, too. We have a pretty good hypothesis about where the plane landed, but we could be very wrong, and even if we're right we don't know what it did after it went over the reef edge. If it didn't go straight down, then (a) it might be scattered in tiny pieces all over the reef face or (b) it might have floated some distance away before sinking -- or (c) it may have done something else. My personal feeling is that a deep water search wouldn't be cost-effective, but this is something some of us (notably Ric and I) argue about. If anyone wants more information on Odyssey, their website is http:// www.shipwreck.net/. Their technology and methods are mind-boggling (to me, anyhow), and I just bought a couple of stuffed ROVs from them for my youngest grandsons. Really cute; both the ROVs and the grandsons. LTM (who appreciates both technology and grandchildren) ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:17:26 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Underwater searching For Alan Caldwell It's not so easy and I don't think there would be a reasonable chance of finding the plane through a deep sea search without meaningful evidence as to where to look. Nikumaroro is a fringing reef on top of a docking huge, steeply sloped undersea mountain. If the Electra was washed off the reef, there's no telling where it could be since with help from currents its wreckage could have tumbled miles down that slope. Furthermore, it's been over 70 years now. Given the power of ocean currents, even radial engine blocks could have been swept away to the most unlikely spots in that time (and yes, one could also be tucked into a snug ledge 300 yards off the reef). If someone came along with ten million bucks to blow on an Earhart search and asked what I thought about that, I'd say think about putting it into more archaeology at the Seven Site, careful searches of the Tatiman Passage (it's much bigger and more complex than it looks on a map and has only been lightly surveyed) along with some clever applied research in Fiji. LTM, who had a thing for lagoons. ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:47:16 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Underwater searching From Dan Postellon There was early Spanish shipping between Mexico and the Philippines, but I don't know if the ever got to the Phoenix or Line islands. I have not found out who Carondelet reef was named after, however. This trade route is suppoed to be the origin of the adobo chicken recipe. Dan Postellon Tighar #2263 ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:02:45 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Underwater searching Good posting William. you show better than I did how "iffy" the project would be. Alan ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:11:06 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Carondelet reef For Dan Postellon Here's a hint anyway, the name Carondelet most often traces back to Baron Francois Louis Hector de Carondelet who was an early governor of Louisiana and West Florida during the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Several US ships have been named Carondelet and it's more than likely the reef was named after one of those ships, named SS Carondelet or something like that, upon which someone first more or less unambiguously plotted (and later successfully reported) the reef's location during the latter 19th century. LTM, ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:25:15 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Carondelet reef Yes, but: The Carondelet family was a prominent family in the Netherlands when it was a Spanish posession, and produced several colonial governors, including a prominent one in Peru. Peru was also involved in the Acupulco to Manila trade route. Althugh this route usually did not pass through the Phoenix island area, it did pass through the northern Marianas, and there is at least one wreck on Guam. This trade route was active from 1565 until 1815, which is quite a long time span. There is a sory of an "ancient" cannon in one of the Line islands being transported to another island. It it was truly old, there are not a lot of other candidates for shipping route that could have produced it, ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:26:06 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Carondelet reef I did a little more research. This is the person who governed, in turn, El Salvador, Louisiana and West Florida, then Quito, a governmental area that now includes most of Ecuador and parts of northern Peru. He had prominent ancestors in the Spanish Netherlands, and it is not impossible that one of the ships in the Acupulco-Manila trade route was named after one of the family members (look up Jean Carondelet and Ferry Carondelet). I can't find a list of the ships, but I would bet that one is available in Spanish somewhere, or maybe in Tagalog. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:01:08 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Carondelet reef <> And another off Saipan (No Electra reported aboard [yet]); it was kind of a great circle route that made landfall on the Northern California/Oregon coast. There's a well-known 1597 wreck in Drakes Bay, north of San Francisco, on some of whose leavings I worked in my misspent youth. A galleon passing through the Phoenix Islands would be waay off course. There IS that cannon, but the photograph we have of it makes it look like a rather small gun, which doubtless could have been carried by a wide range of ship types. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:01:53 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Underwater searching > If someone came along with ten million bucks to blow on an Earhart > search and asked what I thought about that, I'd say think about > putting it into more archaeology at the Seven Site, careful searches > of the Tatiman Passage (it's much bigger and more complex than it > looks on a map and has only been lightly surveyed) along with some > clever applied research in Fiji. Thank you, William; you've given me a lovely fantasy with which to start the day. Maybe it'd be worth saying a few things about what the scope of work might look like for such a project: 1. More archaeology at the Seven Site. Yes. Clear swaths out to the ocean and down the ridge toward the Loran site to get a better handle on the site context and make sure there aren't more fire features (or something) lurking in the bush. Take a good hard look at the Loran site to get a better notion of what could have originated there. Carefully excavate the entire crest and lagoon-ward slope of the ridge down to about 10 cm, systematically scanning for bones, teeth, etc. etc. Also do a systematic search of crab burrows in the buka forest to the NW. 2. Careful searches of the Tatiman Passage. Yes. Remote sensing survey of the southern Nutiran beach and adjacent sandbar -- GPR, magnetometer, etc. Some kind of excavation if sensing reveals anything. Complications: pretty dynamic current and sediment conditions, environmental constraints. 3. Clever applied research in Fiji. Yes. Focus on the Colonial War Memorial Hospital; search every nook and cranny (there are lots). Work with local interests (U. of S. Pacific, Fiji Museum, others), try to generate support for the work. Spend serious time with the files of the Fiji Times, other archival sources. Track down key personnel, interview everyone willing to be interviewed. Pursue all leads. Long-term effort with resident team. 4. In addition.... a. On Niku, comparative research in the village -- for example, excavating several cook houses for comparison with the contents of the fire features at the Seven Site. b. Elsewhere, more clever applied research in Tarawa, Funafuti, Honiara, Kirimati Island, and the WPHC archives in Aukland, and in Fiji and/or the UK, try to track down Gallagher's effects. LTM (who says that ten million would go a long way) ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:02:24 From: Mike Piner Subject: Re: Underwater searching what we know is what we have been told. we were told that there was airplane parts near the reef. That doesn't sound like an airplane with air in it. We have looked down the reef for parts of an airplane. I have to go back and read the Tighar reports to see how extensive that search was, unless someone has a first hand statement. LTM ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:03:21 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Carondelet reef Dan, do you have any idea as to the date of the earliest known reference to the name "Carondelet Reef"? > From Dan Postellon > I did a little more research. This is the person who governed, in > turn, El Salvador, Louisiana and West Florida, then Quito, a > governmental area that now includes most of Ecuador and parts of > northern Peru. He had prominent ancestors in the Spanish > Netherlands, and it is not impossible that one of the ships in the > Acupulco-Manila trade route was named after one of the family > members (look up Jean Carondelet and Ferry Carondelet). I can't > find a list of the ships, but I would bet that one is available in > Spanish somewhere, or maybe in Tagalog. ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:42:17 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Underwater searching For Mike Piner > we were told that there > was airplane parts near the reef. That doesn't sound like an > airplane with air in it. Think, though, about all the ways airplane parts might get up on the reef. Let's assume for a moment that some large part of the airplane, with air in it, floats away from the reef edge, goes south a bit on the prevailing current and moves a couple of hundred yards offshore, then sinks and winds up on the lip of the ledge that extends along the reef face in this area. Then maybe a year, maybe five or ten years later, a storm comes along and tears the plane up, dropping the fuselage over the edge of the ledge but leaving a wing on the ledge. Then a few years later another storm coughs parts of the wing up onto the reef. That's just one of dozens (at least) of possible scenarios. There are a couple of interesting clues to be considered, though, in thinking about how and when the plane might have broken up. 1. IF the "un-dados" are heat shields as we've surmised, then to get into the village, particularly all in the same vicinity, they must have floated in attached to a piece of flooring, which implies that some chunk of fuselage was close enough to shore to be coughed up by wave action. 2. To judge from Emily Sikuli's story, the plane had to leave some largish chunk of itself on the reef edge for her and her father to see several years later. 3. By the time the Coast Guardsmen got there in 1944-45, village craftspeople were making kanawa boxes with aluminum inlay; this aluminum may have come from a wreck or wrecks on Canton, or may have been found on Niku. But there's nothing to indicate that the kanawa box in which the bones were placed in 1940 had aluminum inlay, or that people were doing anything with aluminum at that time. So it most likely started being used in inlay sometime between 1941 and 1944. This may just reflect when aluminum became available on Canton to Niku residents who traveled there to work, but in any event it suggests that aluminum was NOT washing up on the Niku reef until after Gallagher died in September 1941. LTM (who gets all broken up about this) ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:08:42 From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: Underwater searching > From Tom King: > > ... Clever applied research in Fiji. Yes. Focus on the Colonial > War Memorial Hospital; search every nook and cranny (there are lots). Don't send the team until you have got a cooperative CWMH administrator who is willing to back the searches. My impression from Fiji School of Medicine is that there are lots of administrators who do not share our enthusiasm for searching "every nook and cranny" of their institutions. :o( > Work with local interests (U. of S. Pacific, Fiji Museum, others), > try to generate support for the work. USP: again, you need a backer. The secretaries and librarians knew nothing about the Gilchrist request and were not moved to learn anything about it until we showed them the letter of thanks from the university to Dr. Gilchrist. Then and only then did we get effective cooperation. It wasn't all malevolence. They just don't have a handy index of their correspondence that they could check to find out who Gilchrist was and what he had given them. > Spend serious time with the files of the Fiji Times, other archival > sources. The Fiji Times was not indexed in 2003. What you mean by "serious time" is reading every issue of the newspaper for the time period that interests the researcher. Fr. Bransfield said that his community called FT "eight minutes of peace." That's about how long it took to browse it. 3 years of FT @ 8 minutes each = 146 hours = ~25 6-hour days of reading. That's "serious time" with only a small chance of finding a clue. I'd rather go back to Auckland and read all the outgoing correspondence (IF the volumes exist). I did a couple of years and found massive amounts of trivia covered by the letters. But the system of binding copies of all outgoing correspondence may have been abandoned during or after the war. > Track down key personnel, interview everyone willing to be > interviewed. Roger and I felt that we came to the bottom of that barrel. That's why we left when we did. We interviewed everyone that TIGHAR suggested and everyone that our interviewees suggested. I telephoned one fellow in Australia who had been part of the group that created the archives. I'm not saying that we know for certain that there aren't any more players. Roger got some leads on Verrier's adopted son and heir--but they point toward Australia, if I remember correctly. If things have settled down, it might be good to send someone to Niku village in the Solomons. It's a real long shot, but it's not going to get better with time. > b. Elsewhere, more clever applied research in Tarawa, Funafuti, > Honiara, Kirimati Island, and the WPHC archives in Aukland, and in > Fiji and/or the UK, try to track down Gallagher's effects. Gallagher's nephew (or cousin-x-removed?) who lives in Britain had no luck with that. Can we do a better job than he did? Other than the letter to the shipping company, we don't have a lead. Roger and I checked with the shipping company and they definitely don't have any records from the era. Nor warehouses with dusty, undelivered trunks, worse the luck. LTM. Marty #2359 ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:23:56 From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Copper window screening > What I'm asking the Forum's advice on is: what might such screening > have been used for in the 1930s-40s (or maybe 50s)? Windowscreen > would seem a strange use for copper, during World War II at least, > so I'm wondering about more specialized applications. I recalled that copper flywire screening was quite common as late as the 1960's. We used it on some of our buildings at home and we also had brass. The copper screening was usually finished in black. A quick check more or less confirms my memories. The discussions below were related to other stuff, but confirm the existence of the stuff and to copper fly wire still being available today. Cheers, Th' WOMBAT From: *PaulS(* 23/04/2002 19:42:19 Subject: *re: Magnetic Shielding Take 2* post id: 22252 I remember visiting a TV transmitter tower many years ago, they had the equipment room at that place well shielded with copper flywire. perhaps you could try shielding the tv with some alfoil or aluminium fly wire or copper flywire. As someone said its the eddy currents in the material that do the job aluminium and copper are just as good as steel. For a start I would just try dropping a sheet of alfoil down beside each speaker, you may need to experiment with earthing the sheet. Artisan Bill 11th Jan 2005, 11:24 AM Cliff, I just had a thought (yes it hurt and I will not do it again today) after hitting submit on my previous post. Most good hardware stores sell steel, copper or brass fly wire that would be suitable. I think that you would need metal fly wire to handle the heat of the globe. The reasons that I used stainless mesh are that I had some on hand, it is very stiff so provides puncture protection for those miss guided long pieces of wood or pipe and that may be the stainless surface would reflect more light and not dull the output. However I think that the last point is just clutching as straws as the light output is huge. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:24:28 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Underwater searching For Marty Moleski <> Very true. The administrator there in '99 said "Crikey, what nonsense" and tossed us out (rhetorically) -- which didn't trouble me because the place was far too big and complicated for us to search anyhow. But the current administrator is said to be much more friendly, and his son is a good friend of one of Nai'a's skippers, who's said he'd help with entre. Robin Acker is looking into the possibilities for organizing a physician-led search, which should also help overcome obstacles. <> Again, understood. There's now a collegial archaeologist at USP -- Frank Thomas, formerly of the Marshall Islands -- and he's been trying to hook me up with people in the history department who may be interested in helping. Thus far, no joy, but we'll keep trying. <> While a 100% scan would doubtless be helpful, what I really had in mind was something more selective. For example, Verrier wrote for the Times from time to time (sic), and it would be interesting to see if he dropped any useful hints. <> I certainly agree that we could usefully spend lots more time with the WPHC archives in Aukland, as well as with the files on Tarawa and elsewhere. One thing Van will be looking for when he gets back to Tarawa (He couldn't make it on his recent trip; no plane) will be the diaries that District Officers kept, to see if there's one by Gallagher. They haven't turned up previously, but Ratu Mara alludes to them in his memoirs, and Sir Ian Thompson has confirmed that they were kept; we just don't know where (or for that matter whether) they were filed. There's also the intriguing possibility that the filing system changed around July of 1942, when Vaskess retired and a new guy (about whom we know nothing) came on board, along with the new HiCom Mitchell, who was (understandably) devoted to the war effort over all else. I wonder whether that's when the file we've seen on the bones discovery was closed and put away, and whether it's possible that another file, with some totally different designator in a totally different part of the archive, might include later allusions to how the bones and artifacts were disposed of. <> Roger can respond to that if he cares to, but I don't think we need to get into an argument about it. I'll just beg leave to respectfully disagree about whether the bottom has been truly scraped. <> They point in a couple of contradictory directions, and there are other possibilities as well. <> Very true. As I think you know, we're in touch (sporadically) with three gentlemen who were born on Niku (the island) and grew up in Niku (the village); we'd want, I think, to work through one or more of them. <> Maybe. Hope springs eternal. <> I know, and my personal guess is that they got shipped and went to the bottom with the help of a Japanese torpedo, though I have no specific reason to guess that (other than the prevalence of torpedoes in the neighborhood at the time). But if I had ten million, I still think I'd take another run at it. LTM (who leaves no tern unstoned) ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:26:49 From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: Underwater searching > From Tom King for Marty Moleski > > <> > > While a 100% scan would doubtless be helpful, what I really had in > mind was something more selective. For example, Verrier wrote for > the Times from time to time (sic), and it would be interesting to > see if he dropped any useful hints. If there is still no index (very likely), the only way to find Verrier's articles is to turn every page of every paper for the period you're interested in. I concede that it won't take 8 minutes per issue. But it is still not a small task. When I say that there was no index, I'm repeating what I was told at the door when I tried to track down some articles that Mrs. Brown (mis)remembered reading. There may be (ought to be?) some system inside that the staff can use to look up past stories. It is not available to folks who walk in off the street looking for AE and FN. > ... There's also the intriguing possibility that the filing system > changed around July of 1942, when Vaskess retired and a new guy > (about whom we know nothing) came on board ... I don't think Vaskess retired in 1942. Evidence: 3 October 1944: VWTMcG to Vaskess: Verrier is good with stats. "The memorandum [on 'statistics and vital statistics'] is breezily written and is very interesting." In 1946, Vaskess helped Tofiga's home community on Vaitup in Tuvalu purchase the island of Kioa in Fiji. I tried to answer the question about when he retired, but Fiji Archives do not have a complete collection of the relevant Civil Lists--WPHC personnel did not appear in Fiji's Civil Lists. ++++++++++++++ snippets about filing system +++++++++++++++ Tofiga told me: "The numbering system for files changed during or after the war. Vaskess didn't like the change. "If a paper came in and no old file was found, a new file would be opened. Perhaps there is a second bone file from after the changeover in the numbering system. Some files were given new numbers, some weren't." 1229377 F.74/5/3: Fiji and WPHC Combined Files:-- System of. 1945. WPHC 19 1230359 Item 8: "Memorandum from the HC for WP ... ... one copy includes proposals for the new file registration system. 11 November 1941. 1230359 19/III/8 Jardine's Report 6.November.1941 Criticism: The Secretary does things that should normally be done by "the Assistant Secretary or a junior assistant." "In a number of cases files are marked 'bring up' for review at a later date as he has not the time to ascertain whether action on the file is finally complete." "The registration system is of an obsolete pattern and has expanded from what is known as the 'unit paper'system. It operates on an annual series of numbers and demands a much greater staff than the present if it is to function efficiently. The working of the system has been slowed down as the clerks have been unable to maintain a running subject index for the years 1936 onwards. Outward correspondence is bound, annually, in volumes relating to the various territories; each volume is indexed by the typist ...." "I recommend that the present system of registration be abolished and that a subject file system be instituted in its place." Tofiga was working 20 hours a week overtime. Filing system: Daily record: recorded under date of origin. File Register: The register is arranged in accordance with the subject classification. Under 52 medical, for example, the first medical file opened will bear the number F.52/1, the next F.52/2 and so on. The present method of titling a file under the "Keyword" principle should be followed. Subsidiary questions arising from the mail file are registered as sub-files F.52/16/1, 52/16/2 etc. Card files are to be made up. Each Card is to contain the exact subject heading and be filed alphabetically, not numerically. 1229377 F.74/5 Vaskess replies to Jardine that there has been too much turnover in the office and no one officer has been able to master the filing system. 1229377 F.74/5/1 High Commission Office Filing System:-- Reorganization of. From now on, files will be organized in "book file" order--first entry to last, from top to bottom, and not in the old style, where notes were on one side and inclusions on the other, with most recent inclusions on top and earliest on the bottom. "The last officer using the file will be responsible for writing a direction for future action, such as B.U. ["bring up"] or put away. The term "put away" or the letters "P.A." will be used in future instead of "file" when all action on a paper is complete." 12 May 1944 / 14 January 1945 WPHC 4/II/34 1227332 Correspondence Register, 1941. Massive volume! The "filed in" column shows that new correspondence often went into files from previous years, e.g. 3061/35. Red-letter items must be confidential. File numbers are given, but no subject. From Secretary of State to Sir Harry: "Colonial Empire: Information required for post-war reconstruction of." 3678/1941. Gallagher, GB: enquiry re next of kin of. Filed in 3597/36. The telegram is item 4505/1941. The telegram about not being able to award him an OBE posthumously (5856/1941) went into the same file. Lots of other stuff filed there, too. Documents in charge of late O.C. Phoenix Isls. SS., handed over to Ag.A.O., Funafuti; list of. F.3597/36. Item 607/1941, Tele 75 "Human Remains on Gov't Vessel at Tarawa: Objection to ..." got filed in 4439/40. The secretaries are using "Human" as the keyword in this index. 783/1941, Tele 94 is from Verrier. Etc. One telegram was categorized as "Sextant," but it went into the bones file, too. The two GEIC death certificates are here. PISS: questions of an officer-in-charge for: F.4382/1941. Catholics:- Request by Funafuti natives to prevent the landing of. F.3735/36. M.B.C. 2582/1941 From People of the Ellice Islands. Isaac, Dr. L: Petition that he be permanently stationed in the Ellice Islands. Filed in 2896/37 (WPHC). Gallagher stuff is strewn through many tabs. Misc.: O.C.N.Z. Military in Fiji. Gallagher, GB; message of appreciation of services of the late. Return of the personal letters of the late. All go to the same file. Tofiga wanted to go home. G&E 5460/ 1941, Tele 616. F.3184/1937 (G&E). Replacement not available, 5870/1941 Tele 667. So, it's clear that everything that came into the office got a number. They probably let the rubber stamp itself keep track of the next number to be issued. It took me well over an hour to go through just 1941. Gallagher stuff was everywhere. The "Human remains" were a little more focused. The archivists did NOT use this book to keep track of where files went. They did that work in the index I read yesterday or the day before. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > ... along with the new HiCom Mitchell, who was (understandably) > devoted to the war effort over all else. I wonder whether that's > when the file we've seen on the bones discovery was closed and put > away, and whether it's possible that another file, with some > totally different designator in a totally different part of the > archive, might include later allusions to how the bones and > artifacts were disposed of. That was the theory I worked on in Auckland. I read the entire index for the WPHC collection (such as it is). Then I called for and read all of the indexes that are in the index. I found lots of interesting files. Nothing like what we are looking for. > Roger can respond to that if he cares to, but I don't think we need > to get into an argument about it. I'll just beg leave to > respectfully disagree about whether the bottom has been truly scraped. We both left Fiji earlier than we had originally planned because we agreed that we had gone about as fer as we could go. I haven't heard anything in the five years since that makes me wish we had stayed longer. Marty ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:19:11 From: Tom Doran Subject: Re: Underwater searching > From Alan Caldwell > > <<... say we got the money. Where would you search? The plane > could have been swept off the reef and immediately sunk OR it could > have floated away for an unknown time. Some have suggested as much as > twenty minutes but that's a guess. It could have floated for almost > any amount of time or just sunk. That makes a mighty big search area. > In order to tackle such a job there has to be a very reasonable > chance of finding the plane. This is not reasonable. If we knew it > could not float away or be carried a long distance under water by > currents then a search would be reasonable to either find it or > eliminate the possibility. Just to add to the problem we THINK it > landed in a certain spot but we don't know. Even if we are right, did > they move it somewhere else?>> I wouldn't argue that TIGHAR drop everything and go rent a submarine tomorrow. The tasks T.K. has laid out such as searching the hospital, looking for old administrator logs, tracking down the Masonic relics, the Seven Site, etc., would be a higher priority in the near term. In particular, tracking down additional former residents of Niku is important since they may not be around in five years. Mapping out a general strategy for underwater searching would be useful, even if it's just a plan that sits on the shelf for ten years. We can reasonably guess that as the wreck broke up the wings, engines and landing gear would likely come off. The odds are the engines and landing gear would not have floated too far, although they could have slid a long way down the slope. The main fuselage might be fairly intact. Would the empty fuel tanks have given it enough buoyancy to drift away? Maybe so, but it's reasonable to expect that currents in July of 1937 would be similar to those in July of, say, 2015. There are, I've heard, hundreds of shipping containers out there that washed off freighter decks decades ago. They've been drifting around five or fifty feet below the surface ever since, sometimes presenting a hazard to shipping. Could the wrecked fuselage, supported by empty tanks, have drifted about below the surface for a few months or a year? Maybe, but it seems unlikely. All I'm advocating is that a plan be developed, listing objectives and obstacles. It would need the input of experts. Some of those salvage groups have gotten pretty good at finding old wrecks, even when there's nothing left but rotten wood with glass and pottery relics. There may be technological advances in the next few years so that an adequate sonar outfit and remote camera only costs a thousand dollars. Who would have thought twenty years ago that someday you could buy a GPS for a hundred bucks that locates you within ten feet? My guess is that, absent a breakthrough, sometime in the next decade TIGHAR will have exhausted all known leads on land. Underwater will be the only way to go. Also, Joe Billionaire may not show up for forty years, long after we are all gone and TIGHAR consists of a few crates of documents and artifacts in the basement of a library somewhere. Let's leave the next generation a decent legacy. Tom D, #2796 ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:45:59 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Carondelet reef The earliest that I can put a date on is when they searched for Amelia. Some references for the reef say it was named after the discoverer. The ocean going USS Carondelet was built after 1937, the others were river vessels from the US Civil War, probably given this name due to some association with New Orleans. It is hard to find marine references when you live far inland, along the Great Lakes. Dan > From William Webster-Garman Dan, do you have any idea as to the > date of the earliest known reference to the name "Carondelet Reef"? ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:46:26 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re; Underwater searching Availablity of aluminum may be the reason it started then, but why did they do it at all? Is it an immitation of tradional inlay ith something else? mother-of-pearl? I have seen brass inlayed boxes from India. Was metal inlay some standard British industrial arts class taught in multiple colonies? Dan Postellon ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:46:55 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Underwater searching For Tom Doran I think you're right; a plan would be good. That's why we approached Odyssey, to see if, with their expertise, they could come up with one, but they decided it wasn't their cup of seawater. One problem is that we don't have a lot of information with which to plan. All the variables you've mentioned (floating for awhile, breaking up, etc.) are real, and on top of those, we really don't know what the face of the reef and the underlying mountain are like below the depth to which divers have gone (100-120 feet, sometimes a bit deeper). There might be some great plane-catchers down on the slope, or there might be canyons that would siphon the plane off into deep water. I suppose one of the first things to do would be to try to make a good topographic map, but even that would require some pretty pricey technology. But don't despair of a breakthrough in other areas of investigation. There are some pretty interesting things going through lab analysis. LTM (who appreciates deep discussions) ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:48:43 From: Mike Piner Subject: Re: Underwater searching > 2. Careful searches of the Tatiman Passage. Yes. Remote sensing > survey of the southern Nutiran beach and adjacent sandbar -- GPR, > magnetometer, etc. Some kind of excavation if sensing reveals > anything. Complications: pretty dynamic current and sediment > conditions, environmental constraints. I would propose "underwater searching" but shallow water searching to be exact. It has been mentioned once by Dr King and searching in the sand, coral rubble with non-intrusive sensing devices makes more sense, no pun intended. In Tatimanan Passage, we have a definite range, instead of a lots of water. other pursuits on Niku could progress of course. There is another point. Many have asked how high the levation is in places on Niku, and when I look at the NZ survey, I cannot read much of it. Is it possible to get a readable copy? LTM Who need her glasses ******************************* Highest elevation on Nikumaroro is (supposedly) 17 feet AMSL. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 17:13:09 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Underwater searching In a message dated 3/14/2008 3:52:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tigharpat@mac.com writes: > Highest elevation on Nikumaroro is (supposedly) 17 feet AMSL Which feels about right; that's on the north end of Nutiran, I believe, in the buka forest. It's getting lower all the time, however LTM (who has a sinking feeling) ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:21:05 From: Terry Thorgaard Subject: Re: Underwater searching Has anybody pinpointed the data as to how much mean sea level in the mid-pacific has risen in the last 60 years? One would expect that this data is available for places like Honolulu and Suva, anyway. I'm just wondering, because I've been next to the Gulf of Mexico for the past 4 years (and have been here on and off for ten) and haven't noticed any difference. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:26:26 From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Underwater Searching Measurements of sea level rise in the Central Pacific have been made since mid 20th century, but are substantially less than 1 foot...more like an inch or two. For now, the impact upon human habitation has been minimal. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:33:19 From: Mike Piner Subject: Re: Underwater searching What impact? LTM *********************** The impact of rising sea levels on human habitation. Tarawa has had enough trouble with far higher than usual tides to shift some dwellings inland and abandon a few islets, according to our friends there. Probably other similar atolls have seen somewhat the same problems. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:20:13 From: Mike Piner Subject: Re: Underwater searching See www.bigempire.com/sake/kirabatisea.html Next question, is MSL the same around the pacific, Japan Australia, San Fancisco, Kirabati? LTM ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:14:25 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Underwater searching We're getting the cart before the horse. First we have to have a smoking gun proof that the Electra landed at Niku. Yes, we have a lot of evidence indicating that but no smoking gun. Once we have that it should be easy to get funding for an under water search. Until then we are doing exactly what we should. Alan ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:22:30 From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Underwater searching MSL is Mean Sea Level, a reference datum taken by averaging sea level across many days, so that the effects of tides are removed. As such, MSL is a local measurement and is not directly observable at any one point or time. Because of the earth's gravity, MSL across the world defines the geoid, the surface of equi-potential gravitational force. This is a fancy term that says water can flow from high spots to low spots, and eventually will equilibrate across the world. MSL changes extremely slowly, due to usually two influences: land subsidence (or rising), and polar ice cap and glacier melting. During the maximum of the last ice age (18,000), sea level was approximately 400 feet lower than today. Sea level rise up until 6000 years ago was dramatic, and then fairly stable. Thus, we can calculate sea level rise to be 0.03 feet per year (0.4 inches per year). Current measurements have sea level rising 3.1mm per year, or a bit over 0.1 inch per year. How did we get into this discussion anyway? Oh yes, sea level rise over the past 60 years. Yes, it is measurable, but not terribly noticable by humans, being on the order of inches. What people typically observe are higher storm surges, as MSL is not directly observable, but calculated. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:18:42 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Underwater searching Yes, of course, Mike, except in Australia it's upside down. Alan > From Mike Piner: > See www.bigempire.com/sake/kirabatisea.html > > Next question, is MSL the same around the pacific, Japan > Australia, San Fancisco, Kirabati? > LTM ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:19:17 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Underwater searching Randy Jacobson writes: > What people typically observe are higher > storm surges, as MSL is not directly observable, but calculated. Which, to bring the matter "home," is what we've observed on Niku over the last 20 years, and what's troubling the inhabited islands of Kiribati, Tuvalu, the Marshall Islands, and other atoll nations. LTM (who wants water wings) ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:19:47 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Underwater searching There is land lost due to MSL rise, but probably more due to subsidence, coral reef erosion, and loss due to lack of vegetation (like mangroves). When your island only rises 17 feet above MSL, though, even a foot can be a lot. This measured rise has been very slight. The argument is real, but there is often a lot more smoke than fire. If I were in a small Pacific country, I'd do whatever I could to get some additional aid from whomever I could. Dan Postellon TIGHAR 2263 ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:20:07 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Copper window screening For Ross Devitt -- Thanks, Wombat, and welcome back; we haven't heard from you for awhile. So it looks like our screening could easily have come from either the Loran station or the village, and the fact that it's copper (or appears to be) isn't unusual at all. LTM (who has a soft spot for stout, sturdy marsupials) ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:34:47 From: Terry Thorgaard Subject: Re: Underwater searching Randy Jacobson says, as I understand his post, says that MSL rise is presently .1 to .4 inches per year, totalling an inch or two "since mid 20th century". If "a foot can be a lot", two inches would be less than a lot, I suppose. So then, it appears that deterioration of Islands such as Niku is mainly due to "subsidence, coral reef erosion, and loss due to lack of vegetation", and not "global warming"-resulting MSL rise. What exactly is meant by subsistence? A sinking of the tectonic plate, or is this simply another term for reef erosion? Is reef erosion normal and natural, or is something extraordinary going on? Randy Jacobson writes about higher storm surges. Again, is there something out-of-ordinary about the rate and/or severity of storm surges in the last half century or so? Can these things (subsidence, coral reef erosion, vegetation loss, higher storm surges) be documented statistically, or are they merely anecdotal? ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:28:20 From: Gary LaPook Subject: Re: Underwater searching Every atoll was formed by an island subsiding into the ocean leaving only a circular reef as the coral grows upward as the island sinks downward. Island chains such as the Hawaiian chain illustrate subsidence. The youngest island of the chain, Hawaii or the Big Island, located at the south east end of the chain, is the tallest while the other islands get lower and lower as they extend to the northwest as these other island are progressively older and have had more time to subside. The chain extends to sea mounts that have sunk completely beneath the surface. The amount of this subsidence dwarfs the changes of sea level over the millennia which amount to only several hundreds of feet. Eventually the Big Island will also sink beneath the sea even though its top is currently 13,796 ft above MSL. gl ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:45:25 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Underwater searching There is a general lack of records, which contributes to the problem of figuring out the causes of land loss, which is very real. Atolls are perched on underwater mountains, but they consist of a coral based limestone, and have multiple caves and cavities under water. This is the reason for the quicksand that Ric can tell you about. The caves can collapse, causing subsidence of the land above them, just like sinkholes in Florida. Also, you don't necessarily have to lose land to have a disaster. Most atolls depend on a lens of freshwater that "floats" on the saltwater beneath it . Even a small rise in the sea level gives a large decrease in the size of this relatively fresh groundwater, and can alter what plants are able to grow. Dan ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:09:42 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Underwater searching That's depressing, Gary. I have friends there. Alan > Eventually the Big Island will also sink > beneath the sea even though its top is currently 13,796 ft above MSL. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:51:25 From: Tom Hickcox Subject: Re: Underwater searching It's encouraging the Kormoran and HMAS Sydney have been found after sixty some odd years. Perhaps there is hope for our Electra. Tom Hickcox 2725 ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:51:49 From: Gary LaPook Subject: Re: Underwater searching Trust me Alan, your friends will feel no pain when it happens. gl ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:29:02 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Underwater searching I DO trust you, Gary. Alan > From Gary LaPook: > > Trust me Alan, your friends will feel no pain when it happens. > > gl ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:29:47 From: Tom Doran Subject: Re: Underwater searching > From Tom Hickcox > > It's encouraging the Kormoran and HMAS Sydney have been found > after sixty some odd years.... Perhaps there is hope for our Electra. I had the same thought when I saw this story. It's probably easier, though, to find a couple of warships than a single small aircraft. The head of the search team, David Mearns, does seem a different sort than many of the treasure hunters. His website www.bluewater.uk.com doesn't mention treasure hunting at all. They talk about archaeology, historical research, accident investigation and insurance fraud. Apparently insurance scams are big business in the maritime industry. He did have a four million dollar budget but only did two weeks of searching at sea. His search area was 1800 square miles, much larger than the likely target area around Niku. Since Mearns, his equipment and crew are sort of "in the neighborhood," (as of last weekend), maybe someone should give him a call. Maybe they'd make a two day detour on the way back to Britain. A few hours of topo surveying would tell us a lot that we don't know. Tom Doran, #2796 ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:40:06 From: Tom King Subject: Sir Ian Thomson I just got word that Sir Ian Thomson, known as "Mungo" when he was Sir Harry Luke's Aide-de-Camp in the Western Pacific High Commission around the time of the bones discovery on Nikumaroro, passed away last Thursday in Edinburgh. A Fiji Times obituary at http:// www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?id=83887 gives a precis of his service to Fiji and the British Empire. Sir Ian has been a generous correspondent of mine over the last eight years or so, and has been very helpful to our research. I'll certainly miss him. Tom ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 10:36:36 From: Marcus Lind Subject: Happy Easter Dear Colleagues, Happy Easter - best wishes to all ! ...This is the "AE link" i found this morning... just thought somebody may find it interesting: http://www.hometownstation.com/valencia-library-2008-03-21-11-10.html Kind regards - LTM, Marcus Lind ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:51:19 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Happy Easter Thanks Marcus. If you're going to attend, we could supply a lot of questions about the Seven Site. LTM (who reanacts motherhood) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:11:14 From: Mona Kendrick Subject: Re: Happy Easter You too, Marcus! LTM, Mona K. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:54:19 From: Marcus Lind Subject: Re: Happy Easter For Dr. Tom King: Thank you for your kind reply; no, alas i will not be able to attend to this Presentation... so i posted that link just for other Colleagues - as some of them, i thought, could fing it interesting... For Mona Kendrick: Thank you for your kind Greeting! Happy Easter! Kind Regards - LTM, Marcus Lind ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:00:30 From: Rick Jones Subject: Underwater search For those who dream of an underwater search for the Electra, here is a tantalizing report on the successful search for the HMAS Sydney. Our local newspaper (Spokesman Review) published this today, as a Spokane, WA man was among the crew members. (I'm sure the "SV Geosounder" would love to make a circuit around Niku on their way home to Seattle for a "Pacific Trifecta". QUOTE Solving the mystery of the HMAS Sydney Bill Morlin Staff writer March 31, 2008 A team of Pacific Northwest scientists and technicians, including a Spokane geophycist, have solved a World War II mystery. The crew has located and now is filming the underwater wreckage of the HMAS Sydney -- described as the pride of the Australian Navy 110 miles off the western shores of Australia. This is a historical photo of the HMS Sydney II in the Sydney Harbor. (Courtesy of Finding Sydney Foundation) Web site: Finding Sydney Foundation Transcript: Prime minister's press conference A World War II mystery that continues to grip Australia is being videotaped today 8,400 feet under the Indian Ocean by scientists and technicians from the Pacific Northwest. The taping by a remote submersible vehicle comes after the crew's historic discovery earlier this month of the wreckage of HMAS Sydney -- an Australian cruiser that sank with its entire crew of 645 sailors on Nov. 19, 1941. The crew of a Seattle-based firm, Williamson & Associates, including marine geophysicist Mike Kelly of Spokane, used side-scanning sonar, computers and U.S. brainpower to locate the Sydney wreckage on March 16. Three days earlier the team located the silt-covered hull of the German warship HSK Kormoran, which apparently fired a deadly torpedo while disguised as a Dutch merchant ship. The World War II battle between the two warships triggered a decades-long controversy over how and why the 6,830-ton Sydney -- described as the "pride of the Royal Australian Navy" -- sank without a trace. It previously sank Mussolini's battle cruiser Colleoni in a 1940 battle in the Mediterranean. Historians say the controversy over Australia's largest loss in a naval battle was fueled by government secrecy and a censored press during the war. The discovery of the wreckage of the Sydney on March 16 was announced the following day by Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, triggering parties, the playing of ceremonial bagpipes and huge headlines throughout Australia. "This is a historic day for all Australians, and it's a sad day for all Australians, as we confirm the discovery of the HMAS Sydney," the prime minister said. At his side, Vice Admiral Russ Shalders called the discovery "very historic." "For 66 years, this nation has wondered where the Sydney was and what occurred to her,'' the Australian Navy chief said. "We've uncovered the first part of that mystery," Shalders said. "We now know where she is or where she finished. The next part of the mystery, of course, is what happened, and that will take some time." With the videotapes now being made and sonar maps, experts will be able to precisely map the shipwrecks and their debris fields, now officially designed and protected under Australia's Historic Shipwrecks Act. That act makes it illegal to disturb more than 6,500 wrecks off the country's coastlines. "The Australian people believed they deserved to know where their missing sailors went down, and we provided that answer,'' said Art Wright, the operations manager for Williamson, who returned to Seattle Wednesday after spending more than a month in Australia. The Northwest crew members were treated as heroes and hosted at a lavish party when their 199-foot search vessel, the SV Geosounder, leased in Singapore and modified for the search, returned to the Port of Geraldton in Australia. "The respect and appreciation we received from the folks in Geraldton was, well, humbling,'' said Kelly, a 1990 Mead High School graduate. Besides Kelly, the crew included Wright; Jeff Koch, of Waialua, Hawaii; Brian Bunge, of Port Orchard, Wash.; Carter Le, of Seattle; Philip Colvin, of Redmond, Ore.; and Bill Heather and Kelly Curtis, both of Poulsbo, Wash. The search for the wreckage was spearheaded and funded by the Finding Sydney Foundation, which set up a web site and hired David Mearns, a British deep-sea shipwreck hunter, as search director. Mearns has found nearly 50 shipwrecks, including the HMS Hood sunk in 1941 by the German battleship Bismarck. The Australian Navy provided substantial funding and had an officer assigned to the search effort. The foundation hired Williamson & Associates to use its SM-30 deep sea search sonar to do the underwater mapping -- taking wide sonar swaths of the seabed that turn up foreign objects. Once something of interest is spotted, narrower readings are taken, providing more detailed images on screen read by Kelly. The sonar device drops deep into the ocean, pulled on a sled. It sends data to a bank of computers in an office-like room in the search vessel. "The computers are tied down" to withstand rough seas, Wright said. "Mike (Kelly) happened to be on duty when we found both ships," Wright said. "He saw images come rolling across the scope, and we knew almost immediately we'd made the discovery." Kelly, in an e-mail sent Saturday to The Spokesman-Review, said the initial discovery of the Kormoran wreckage on March 13 "meant we were hot on the Sydney's trail." After running a couple of "survey lines" covering some distance over the next two days, the crew changed the direction of their search vessel. In no time, they found the watery grave of the Sydney. "It took only a couple pings of data before the whole place was buzzing," Kelly said. "Like the previous target, it took almost no time before we knew what we had. Everyone was excited. It was an amazing moment." The firm's SM-30 deep sea search sonar, built in Seattle, previously was used by its crews in the 2006 discovery of the USS Grunion, a submarine sunk in 1942 off Kiska Island, Alaska, and the Israeli submarine Dakar, which sunk in 1967 and was found in the Mediterranean Sea in 1999. The wreckages of the two war ships and debris fields were located about 110 miles west of Shark Bay, Australia. The Sydney was located in 8,100 feet of water. The Kormoran was 10 miles away at 8,400 feet. There were more than 300 German-sailor survivors from the Kormoran who were rescued after their captain scuttled the ship when its engines apparently failed and the ship caught fire during the battle. The initial search site was based on statements given by those sailors, taken as prisoners of war by Australia. Some of them remained in Australia after the war, and a few are still alive, according to Australian press accounts. The video taping now being done -- allowed under special permit -- will not disturb the wrecks, but provide close-up color photos. That will allow maritime experts to examine the ships' hulls in an attempt to recreate battle damage and more accurately determine locations and what happened. The bow of the Sydney -- likely struck by a torpedo from the Kormoran in the sea battle -- appears to have been knocked off, Wright said. The stern of the German warship, where mines apparently were stored, apparently blew up, scattering debris still visible along a path on the sea floor, Wright said. Search director Mearns said the dimensions of the wreck combined with its position in relation to the Kormoran "leave me in no doubt that this is the wreck of Sydney." After the first, broad-swathe pass, a narrower 3-kilometer swathe reading was taken. "This run gave us the ability to better measure the wreck and some of the larger pieces of wreckage in the debris field," Mearns said. A third 1,500-meter pass produced "a good image of the wreck lying on the seabed displaying a clear acoustic shadow," Mearns said. "This pass provided an indication that part of Sydney, possibly her bow, may have broken away from her as she limped away causing her to sink," the search director said. That tentative assessment, he said, would be confirmed through the videotaping with the remotely operated vehicle. Kelly will be aboard the Geosounder as the video taping of the shipwrecks is done this week. "Being a part of a search that means a lot to many people, and ended up so successful, is really an opportunity of a lifetime," said the Spokane scientist who travels the world. "As far as what I do, this job was as good as it gets." UNQUOTE Also see: http://www.findingsydney.com/ Rick Jones #2751