Date:         Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:15:32
From:         Craig Knowles
Subject:      TIGHAR article in Post Magazine

Thought the forum might be interested in this article from Post Magazine:
http://tinyurl.com/2n834y

EARHART EXPEDITION TO BECOME DOCUMENTARY

NEW YORK -- Filmmaker Mark Smith (www.o7films.com) recently traveled
with The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery (TIGHAR) 
team to document the group's research in relation to the Amelia 
Earhart Expedition, marking the 70th anniversary of her 
disappearance. Smith has plans to edit a documentary on the subject 
using Apple's Final Cut Pro.

A 14-member team traveled to the remote South Pacific island of 
Nikumaroro (formerly Gardner Island) last summer to research the 
possibility that the famous aviator  landed and ultimately died 
there. Smith documented the exploration using Panasonic AG-HVX200  P2 
HD camcorders. The team spent 16 days exploring the island, seeking 
clues to Earhart's disappearance.

Smith had made the trip in 2001, shooting Betacam and DV footage on 
tape, and was glad to work with the solid state media on this 
excursion, as extreme moisture and heat took its toll during the 
first trip.

This time, he traveled with two P2 HD cameras, an AJ-PCS060G P2 
Store, a laptop, three hard drives for storage, two wireless 
microphones, and a grip/lighting package for outdoor use. He shot on 
16GB P2 cards, off-loaded to the P2 Store as needed, and backed up 
everything after each day of shooting. His choice of format was 720 
30pN, which he considered "the best quality/drive space/shooting time 
trade off."

"I off-loaded all footage from each day to one 750GB hard drive as 
MXF files, and to a second 750GB drive as QuickTime movies exported 
from Imagine Product's HD Log Gold," Smith recalls. "The MXF files 
would be my copy for future editorial purposes, and the QuickTimes 
were made so TIGHAR staff would have access to all footage simply by 
connecting the drive to a computer, one of the huge advantages of 
file-based acquisition."

The cinematographer noted that he made extensive use of the HVX200's 
off-speed shooting and pre-record capabilities for capturing footage 
of the wildlife found on the island.

Ultimately, the 70th Anniversary Earhart Expedition cleared and 
examined more area than ever before, and collected both data and 
imagery. TIGHAR (www.tighar.org) is currently soliciting funding to 
underwrite the completion of the documentary.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:17:38
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      International Comprehensive Ocean-Atmosphere Data Set (ICOADS)

The latest story on the mystery of the Mary Celeste, found without a
crew in 1872 near the Azores, had a reference to this Data which has
global marine surface observations from 1784 to present, including
the South Pacific.

Perhaps you have already tapped into this resource for tide, climate,
etc for Niku in July 1937.

If not I can call and see what they have. They were able to identify
the ocean conditions near the Azores in 1872 re storm conditions, etc.
If may be quite helpful regarding the Niku conditons.
Somebody with better computer skills might be able to get this on
line. Try Google or the direct link.
Ron Bright
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:30:57
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: International Comprehensive Ocean-Atmosphere Data Set (ICOADS)

Thanks Ron.  I'm not familiar with ICOADS so I don;t know what
sources they have.  Our weather data for the area comes from
observations taken on Howland and from the various ships' logs.  Our
tidal data comes from hindcasting British tidal observations taken at
Hull Island (now Orona) and then verifying/correcting them with
actual tidal observations we've taken at Niku.

I'll ask our tides guru, Bob Brandenburg, if he's aware of ICOADS.

Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Nov 2007 18:21:28
From:         Gerry Elkus
Subject:      Ron Reuther

I am sending this email to let you know that there will be a memorial
service for Ronald T. Reuther on Sunday, November 11, 2007,  2:00 pm
at the Corinthian Yacht Club, 43 Main Street,  Tiburon, California.
You cannot park in their lot, as it is gated.  There is public
parking across the street and nearby.

I apologize for the awkward and late notice via email, but I have
just finally accessed one of Ron's email contact lists.  Many of you
may already know of the service through word of mouth or the printed
local obituaries. For those of you who are just now aware of this
service or his passing, please accept my deep and sincere apologies.
Hopefully I will now have accessed all of Ron's friends and
associates. Given Ron's broad social network, some people may still
be unaware, so please feel free to pass this on to those whom you
know would be interested.

Most Sincerely,
Gerry Elkus, his wife.

======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:26:37
From:         Pat Gaston
Subject:      Brass knives?

Just read the Niku V research reports again.  I've never heard of a
brass-bladed knife.  In fact I can't think of a worse metal for
holding an edge, except maybe lead.

Would this be some sort of sailor's implement from back in the days
before stainless steel?  No doubt brass would resist corrosion better
than the old carbon steels, but I still can't imagine it would be of
much use as a cutting tool.  The only brass-bladed items I was able
to find in a (cursory) internet search were letter openers.

Pat Gaston

****************************************

The report must not have been terrifically clear. There are no
blades. The brass is what the blades were once attached to -- which
is fairly common. If you think of a pocket knife as a sandwich, the
brass is the bread and the blades, which would be steel, are the
filling. The analogy breaks down because there is usually some sort
of decorative outer layer -- horn, plastic, bone, whatever -- but you
see what I mean.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:06:39
From:         Marcus Lind
Subject:      Veterans Day

For all the Veterans of the TIGHAR Forum: please accept my very best
wishes and sincere greetings for the Veterans Day!  God Bless - kind
regards, very sincerely - Marcus Lind
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:06:09
From:         Pat Gaston
Subject:      Re: brass blades

Tnx for the clarification.  Yes, brass is commonly used as a
decorative element -- knife casings, sword hilts, etc. -- but not as
a cutting edge. The report probably needs to be amended.

Pat Gaston
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:33:46
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Veterans Day

Thanks, Marcus

Alan L. Caldwell
Major USAF Ret.

> From Marcus Lind
>
> For all the Veterans of the TIGHAR Forum: please accept my very best
> wishes and sincere greetings for the Veterans Day!  God Bless - kind
> regards, very sincerely - Marcus Lind
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:13:21
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

On 10/23 Tom Doran inquired about the story of the kids on Niku who
eloped into the bush and were by themselves for some time,
conceivably (though there's no evidence) camping at the Seven Site.

This was in telegrams collected by Ric and Van when they went through
the archives on Tarawa.  It happened in July of 1947; a young man
named Akura and a young woman named Karubea ran off together, and
there was a flurry of telegrams between the Native Magistrate on Niku
and the District Officer on Canton about where to look for them and
what to do when they were found.  Nutiran seems to have been their
suspected hideout.  They were gone only a few days, then were found
(the telegrams don't say where) and agreed to get married, then
changed their minds, and the messages sort of dribble off.

The only significance of this for us is that it indicates that people
did go off overnight, and presumably could have had cooking fires
like those at the Seven Site, but this is hardly a surprise.

LTM (who giggles)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:03:41
From:         Len Lazoff
Subject:      Re: Veterans Day

Thank you, Marcus.  LEN LAZOFF
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:04:06
From:         Mary Jane Connolly
Subject:      Re: Veterans Day

You are all in my thoughts and prayers, especially today.  I am the
proud mother-in-law of a West Point graduate who just made Lt.
Colonel and is very proud to be serving. You would be proud of him
and his fellow soldiers.
Mary Jane Connolly
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:49:54
From:         Karen Hoy
Subject:      The Latest Earhart News?

Yahoo News just posted a really inexplicable article entitled "7
Missing Wonders"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119457193970087421.html?
mod=hpp_us_leisure

It describes yet another Earhart theory (as if we needed one).

Woody Peard of Lake Tahoe believes that Earhart's Electra was downed
in a midair collision (with what it doesn't say) and is buried on a
Japanese military base in the Marshall Islands. He thinks he can
prove it with ground penetrating radar, for only $30,000. "Nobody
believes me," he says.

If nothing else, this theory is a great attempt to combine some of
the worst Earhart theories!

The article is accompanied by a dubious looking interactive map.
Click on the map and then again on the link for Earhart's plane to
see an overview of current Earhart research--Nauticos, New Guinea,
Todd Swindell, and TIGHAR.

I didn't know about the revelation that one of NIKU V's artifacts was
"fossilized human feces."

LTM,
Karen
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:11:11
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: The latest Earhart news?

Karen Hoy wrote,

> Yahoo News just posted a really inexplicable article...

That seems to be syndicated from the Wall Street Journal, which has
plummeted to new lows over the past few years. Who knows where they
got it.

LTM, who goes online for the pithy numbers these days.

William Webster-Garman
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:23:15
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Latest Earhart News?

Karen Hoy writes:

> I didn't know about the revelation that one of NIKU V's artifacts
> was "fossilized human feces."

There's no revelation and that's not what the article says.  The
article's entire mention of TIGHAR is:

"Another team which calls itself The International Group for Historic
Aircraft Recovery, returned in August from its ninth expedition to
the island of Nikumaroro in the South Pacific.  The artifacts
collected, including a substance that could be fossilized human
feces, are currently being analyzed."

The WSJ reporter called me and I told her that it's just a few chunks
of hard brown stuff.  We don't know what it is. There are many
possibilities and we currently suspect that it's not feces, but we're
having it checked just to be sure. Nothing to get excited about.

I also asked the reporter if she refers to the publication she works
for as "the newspaper that calls itself The Wall Street Journal."

Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:53:26
From:         George Werth
Subject:      Re: "The Newspaper That Calls Itself The Wall Street Journal?"

Subject: "Hard Brown Stuff that is being tested ----"

Is the manner in which the Wall Street Journal treated
the information provided by 'Ric' a harbinger of things
to come now that that person who calls himself 'Rupert
Murdoch' owns the WSJ?

George R Werth
TIGHAR Member #2630
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:30:39
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

As I recall, I think it was Laxton, who heard that the southeast
tip of Niku was used to imprison or isolate natives who  had broken
the law. It was for punishment of sorts.
This was discussed a few years ago, but I can't put my hands on it.
Could this account for campfires and sturctures used for the "inmate"?

Ron
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:08:30
From:         Alfred Hendrickson
Subject:      WSJ

Ric wrote: I also asked the reporter if she refers to the publication she
works for as "the newspaper that calls itself The Wall Street Journal."

Nice going, Ric. I like that. I like that a lot.

Alfred Hendrickson #2583
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:28:29
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

Ron Bright says

> As I recall, I think it was Laxton, who heard that the southeast
> tip of Niku was used to imprison or isolate natives who  had broken
> the law. It was for punishment of sorts.

Wow, I don't remember that at all.  If you can find a source, Ron, it
would be great.  It would be a strange kind of thing for them to do,
though, since someone would have to live down there and watch out for
the prisoners, and usually "jails" were just houses in the village
where inmates lived in very relaxed confinement.  We have one story
of small houses on the ends of piers (which look like privies) being
used for confinement, too.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:47:01
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

I am searching my files for the source of the Niku custom of
isolating miscreants or lawbreakers on the southern tip, east side,
as  a mild form of "punishment". As I recall it was a temporary type
of "isolation" for those who transgressed the native mores, probably
requiring no guards, only a shack. It only stands to reason that
there were some plans for those who violated the "law".

    I know I read that report with interest as it might fit into the
kinds of fires, and campsites observed in the area. Naturally it is
driving my crazy  trying to find the interview. I checked Maude and
Bevington, and Laxton, with no luck.

LTM,
Ron B
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:47:38
From:         Tom Doran
Subject:      Re: The Latest Earhart News?

>> a really inexplicable article entitled "7 Missing Wonders"

Note that another of the researchers they discuss purchased a sliver of
the True Cross for $1500 on Ebay.

WSJ is sounding more like the National Enquirer. Would that be getting
back to their roots?

Tom Doran, #2796
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:08:35
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

Why would they have guards? Where could they go? The next island is a
long swim.

Alan

> From Ron Bright,
>
>    I am searching my files for the source of the Niku custom of
> isolating miscreants or lawbreakers on the southern tip, east side,
> as  a mild form of "punishment". As I recall it was a temporary type
> of "isolation" for those who transgressed the native mores, probably
> requiring no guards, only a shack. It only stands to reason that
> there were some plans for those who violated the "law".
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:35:32
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: NIkumaroro

Lee Boyle tells me the bit about the miscreant campers was in
something I wrote based on his and my examination of the Loran
station records; I have no recollection of this but am searching.

Memory loss is a terrible thing, but I forget why.

LTM, whoever she is
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:36:02
From:         Karen Hoy
Subject:      Talon zipper

There are not many good closeup pictures of vintage zippers available
from Google Images.

This one is a little blurry, but of all the pictures I saw, this one
seems to most resemble the one from the Seven Site:

http://www.steelzipper.com/talon_zipper_2_details.html

This particular zipper is from a pair of 1950s men's dress pants.

LTM (whose zippers are always sewn in straight)
Karen
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 13 Nov 2007 20:52:27
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

> From Tom King for Ron Bright
>
> Lee Boyle tells me the bit about the miscreant campers was in
> something I
> wrote based on his and my examination of the Loran station records;
> I have no
> recollection of this but am searching.

When Roger and I interviewed Emily in 2003, she said
that she thought that the structures identified as latrines in the photo
of village were "small jails" for holding 2 or 3 prisoners.  It was the
prisoners who broke the coral into gravel for the roads.  Emily also
remembers a police station of some kind.

It's hard to tell how reliable a witness she is on this
point.  I guess it's conceivable that the latrines may
have done double duty (?).

					Marty #2359
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:11:13
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

> I guess it's conceivable that the latrines may
> have done double duty (?).

The prisoners must've really been pooped after breaking all those
rocks.  Anyhow, these piers were at the village, not at the other end
of the lagoon.  I've searched my notes on the information Chuck Boyle
and I got at the National Archives on the Loran site, and can't find
anything about prisoners.  I'm mystified.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:51:44
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

       I viewed Niku from the southeast oriented to duplicate the
Lambrecht photo and guess what, it almost exactly overflew " 7-
site".  I am now wondering if AE and FN were possibly there by the
time the plane flew over?

      Was there some conversation about the cool wind from the ocean
caused this site to be attractive to Gerald Gallagher?  If so maybe
this same reason attracted our castaways.

LTM She liked the cool breeze on the porch
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:52:32
From:         Adam Marsland
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

<<The prisoners must've really been pooped after breaking all those rocks.>>

Maybe if they were pooped, that's why they were housed in the latrine!
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:10:50
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

Yes, the fact that the Lambrecht photo scans right over the Seven
Site is intriguing.  It's sort of pathetic to imagine AE and FN being
there at the time, hearing the planes go over, and not being able to
do anything about it.  Except -- here's an interesting thing to
imagine -- throwing stuff into their cooking fire to try to make
visible smoke; I'm thinking of the funny items we've found in two of
the fire features (the clothing snap in feature WR-1 and something(s)
that produced various pieces of hardware and probably the "coprolite"
in feature SL-3).

Anyway, re. the breeze:  Laxton, in his 1951 (written in 1949)
article, mentions the end of the trail from the village around past
the loran station, up to the windward side, being in an area that had
been cleared from the lagoon to the sea, where the breezes blew
through and a house had been built "for Gallagher" (who of course had
died 8 years before he wrote the piece).  When we worked there in
'01, it was because of the cool breeze on the crest of the surge
ridge that we found the first of the burn features; we took breaks
there from the hot digging at the hole (which is lagoon-ward from the
ridge crest).  I picked up my pack to dig out something to eat, and
noticed that it was lying on what turned out to be a piece of turtle
shell.  We started to search the area, and began to find bird and
fish bones.

Laxton's account raises some questions.  First, why was the area
cleared, and when?  If it was cleared in Gallagher's time, and was
still clear in '49, it almost had to have been kept cleared.  Why
might this have been?  Why wasn't it wall-to-wall Scaevola?  And what
was with the house?  How come the Coast Guardsmen in 1944-46 saw a
water tank there, but no house, and Laxton in '49 saw a house?  Built
for Gallagher, who died in '41?

But anyway, yes, it's quite pleasant on the ridge at the Seven Site,
and that may indeed be what attracted the castaway.  I'm not sure,
though, what made it any different from anyplace else on the windward
side before the swath was cleared through from the lagoon to the
sea.  The same nice breeze blows onto the whole windward side.

LTM (a very breezy lady)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:11:20
From:         Tom Doran
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

<<information Chuck Boyle and I got at the National Archives on the
Loran site>>

Maybe this has been discussed and I missed it, or it was done years
ago...Have any of the Loran station staff ever been interviewed? Any
old station reports on file from the C.O., or whoever was in charge?

Tom Doran, #2796
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:36:22
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

Yup, Loran Unit 92 men have been interviewed, and some participate in
the Forum.  Lee Boyle was actually on the Atafu station, but is in
touch with Niku veterans, and we've had several detailed interviews
over the years, the most recent by Barb Norris with Dick Evans, who's
been very helpful, just a couple of weeks ago.  And Lee Boyle and I
went through the Unit 92 records at the National Archives a few years
ago.  And Steve Sopko, son of Unit 92's late CO Ens. Charles Sopko,
has generously shared his father's rather extensive photo file with us.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:39:27
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

An ensign named Charlie Sopko was the CO and if there was a house at
the 7 site in 1944-45, I think we would have heard something about it
from the coasties. I've always taken Laxton's account as a somehow
muddled reference to something he'd heard was started (corrugated
iron from the Arundel project dragged there, a water tank) but then,
either not finished or taken/knocked down not long after.

LTM, who like the sea breeze, didn't care for the turtle soup, much
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:42:09
From:         Terry Thorgaard
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

Gets one to thinking about what it would have been like for AE and FN
during that first week on Nikumaroro.  Make their way to the Seven
Site, for some reason (perhaps it was a naturally cleared breezeway
at the time, for some reason; perhaps the hunting & gathering was
especially good there)  If they had a cooking fire they would have
been aware of a limited supply of matches, and would want to conserve
them.  Not re-starting a fire every day, but keeping a bed of coals
going, as opposed to a raging bonfire, would have been the reasonable
thing to do, for two reasons:
1.  less work finding firewood
2.  a bed of coals is better for cooking.

So Tom King is suggesting that they might have thrown clothing on
this bed of coals in an attempt to make smoke?  Sounds plausable to me.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:12:11
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

William Webster-Garman wrote:

> I've always taken Laxton's account as a somehow
> muddled reference to something he'd heard was started (corrugated
> iron from the Arundel project dragged there, a water tank) but then,
> either not finished or taken/knocked down not long after.

That's pretty much my guess, too.  OR that they built a house for
Gallagher, perhaps during the bones search, and then rebuilt it after
the Coasties left for their own use while trying to make coconuts
grow there (or something).

LTM (who's got a lovely bunch of coconuts)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:45:09
From:         Karen Hoy
Subject:      More news is good news

Finally, Yahoo came up with something worth reading:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071114/ap_on_re_us/
lost_fighter_plane;_ylt=AnfOD8FxDOMBngOUJTBcJ0Gs0NUE

It ties in well with this month's TIGHAR Tracks.

Karen
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:50:18
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

> But anyway, yes, it's quite pleasant on the ridge at the seven
> site,....

     Mr King, is it very high at the crest you mentioned, and if so is
the breeze blowing through - possibly a reason the scaevola can't
take root?  Also the wind brings beach sand with it, hence the ridge.
      Another thing about the 7 site , is it in the earliest photo of
the Island?  I think it is 1838?,  By now I've read so much on the
Tighar website I can't keep it in sequence.

     I keep toying in my mind, that the plane crash landed on the
beach right there as the reason for them being there.  It is a 4 mile
plus walk from the north east end.  FN possibly injured.

      I've only been with Tighar since may, and I am not suggesting
any changes in the Hypothesis.  I love every post anyone puts here
for us to read.  This is like a quest to win the lottery, altho if we
ever see this end it will be a high for a short time, and then a
letdown.  Ah then there is the Devastator, and the Lightning  What
great news in the Tracks today.  Mike
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:51:45
From:         Reed Riddle
Subject:      Re: More news is good news

That is pretty cool...should be interesting to see how the project
goes.  TIGHAR Tracks mentions that there is a possibility of going to
Wales in the spring to help with the recovery.....Ric, could you
please explain the details of that?

					Reed
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:52:23
From:         Hilary Olson
Subject:      Re: More news is good news

Amazing stuff.   I grew up right near here in County Gwynedd ( My
Mothers name)   ..

Better keep an eye out for  tidal and wind shifts on Niku ...

http://www.aero-news.net/news/military.cfm?
ContentBlockID=b6d07347-52c1-4307-b27b-c14710b2b2ce&Dynamic=1

======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:36:04
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

Mike, the crest of the ridge is about 5-7 meters above sea level, and
it's actually not clear of scaevola under natural circumstances.  We
clear it of scaevola.  The "Seven" is a bit east (toward the ocean)
of the ridge crest -- about 20 meters, and THAT's clear, but that's
not where the fire features are.  The scaevola does clear out or at
least get light under the canopy of trees, and there are a couple of
biggish ren (Tournefortia) trees on the ridge crest (one of them
possibly being the one under which Gallagher found the bones), but
the ground is relatively clear there because the canopy shades out
the understory, not because of the wind.  The ridge is built up of
relatively large (finger to fist-sized, mostly) fragments of coral,
not sand per se, and it gets built during big storm events.  Actually
"gets" is probably a misnomer; the ridge appears to have been stable
for a long time, probably centuries; it was built up during more or
less ancient storms.

Yes, the "Seven" appears in all our photos, from early to late.
That's how we know it's natural.

I hear you about landing on the windward side, and that's certainly
not out of the question.  It's just that all the evidence points
toward the Nutiran reef.

And be of good cheer; not only is it quite possible that we never
WILL win the lottery, but if we do become certain that our heroes
landed where we think they landed, we'll still have to figure out
what happened to them.

LTM (who doesn't count on winning the lottery)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:11:41
From:         Chin Koon Fun
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

Dr. King, is this the highest point on Niku ?

While all the evidence does point to a Nutiran landing but then it's quite a
long walk to this location. They must have some compelling reason to make
the trip. Is it possible they saw this site from the air and figured out that
the vegetation, terrain and topography gave them the best shot of being seen and
rescued especially after their plane was washed over the reef. But they wouldn't
have seen such terrain before during their various legs of their trip would
they?

They might have heard the rescue planes, attempted to create smoke by throwing
some items into the fire like you said but not enough smoke was created or
ended up killing the fire instead. If there are no artifacts other than bones
found at the other fires sites then I guess it lend weight to this idea.

And that would have been tragic.

Koon Fun Chin  #2689
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:12:18
From:         Pat Thrasher
Subject:      P-38 pages up

For those interested, we have mounted a new section on the website:

http://www.tighar.org/Projects/P38/welshlightning.htm
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:54:31
From:         Alfred Hendrickson
Subject:      Re: P-38 pages

The aerial (kite) shot of that P-38 is so nice it gives me the chills.

What an exciting project!

Alfred Hendrickson #2583
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:09:46
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: P-38

Given TIGHAR was ready when the call came and seems to have gotten
its careful arms around this one so soon after the find, I think the
most helpful way to express my thoughts, in the measured technical
jargon of both historic preservation and industrial archaeology is,
"Wow!"

LTM, who had a thing for beaches
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:14:38
From:         Terry Thorgaard
Subject:      Alternate scenarios

At this point, stepping back and reviewing the post-landing portion
of the Nikumaroro thesis might be in order:

Assuming they did crash land on Gardiner/ Nikumaoro, there are three
major possibilities:

1) The Electra crash landed on the Nutiran area as originally
posited,  and then walked to the "Seven Site" for some unexplained
reason.
While we can puzzle over the question "why did they do that?", we
will probably never know.  My best guess would be that AE & or FN
decided to explore the island and that site is as far as he/she/they
got.  Perhaps only AE got that far (which would explain only one body
being found).  She stopped to gather food, started a fire to cook it,
and died there.

2)   The Electra crash landed on the Nutiran area and the survivors,
if any, stayed there.  The evidence at the "Seven Site" would be
irrelevant "red herrings".  The problem with this alternative is that
some of the most convincing evidence for the whole Nikumaroro Thesis
is connected with this site, including:
i.  the documented fact that bones were found there and the modern
review of the old forensic examination of those bones
ii.  the shoe

3) They crash landed at or near the "Seven Site", and stayed there.
Note, for all we know, if this be the case, they could have already
been dead, the wreckage washed away (I'd have to review the material
on Betty's notes to be sure here.), and the fire gone out, when the
Colorado's planes flew over.
Actually, I kind of like this scenario.
Ever since I started following this investigation, I have grown
increasingly skeptical of reports of plane wreckage having been in
the vicinity of the Norwich City wreck.  The idea of significant
plane wreckage in view, of which none of the white men in charge of
the village were never aware, just doesn't ring true.  In other
words, I guess I disagree with Koon Fun Chin's statement that "all
the evidence does point to a Nutiran landing".  The evidence pointing
there is not really that substantial.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:15:58
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Gardner Island/ Possible origin of artifacts on Southside

In 2002, I interviewed retired Navy Chief Gerald V. Berger, then
86, about his recollections of Earhart and Gardner Island. He was an
eyewitness to Earhart's ground loop in  March 1937 and was one of the
first on the scene. He visited  Gardner Island as a crewmember in
April 1939, while aboard the USS Pelican.

       Berger recalled he led a party of nine men ashore in a
whaleboat and the crew went into the village. He believed that cadet
Simonen, an intelligence officer, accompanied him when they talked to
the "magistrate", whom he believed might have been Gallagher. ( I
haven't established if Gallagher was there at the time). He said they
made inquires about Earhart, but learned nothing.

       During his meeting with the natives on Gardner, he learned that
a native (unidentified) had been banished to the southern end of the
Island for "molesting" someone. Based on his conversations, Berger
believed it was a common practice if a native broke one of the local
settlement "taboos"he would be sent to the "southern area" , placed
in a "jail", simply isolation, with no guards , for a few days.
( Sort of sending a child to a corner for a time out) Berger couldn't
be more specific on the area or facilities in that location,
something he was not interested in at the time as it didn't seem
relevant. He can't recall how the subject came up.

    If  a native was sent to the south tip  and around by the 7 site
area, it is likely that campfires could have been made, and other
artifacts left behind. Conjecture of course.

       Berger provided photos of the natives, Gardner Island village
area, and of the Norwich City taken from the Pelican from perhaps 200
yards. Logs of the Pelican confirm that a party was dispatched but
didn't name any going ashore. They were on Gardner for only a few
hours as I recall.


     Note: It was some 63 years after his visit, and he clearly was
having recall problems,but his visit to Gardner was supported by  his
photo albums. And of course this is triple hearsay. Ric posted on 15
March 2000 his take on Berger's recollections and provided a Gardner
timeline indicating the Pelican visted Gardner on 30 April 1939.
      This may encourage Dr King and others to revisit the social
customs of Gardner Island regarding punishment, the location, etc. .

LTM,
Ron Bright


======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:16:17
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

<<Dr. King, is this the highest point on Niku?>>

Perhaps 20 meters above mean sea level; that's at the NW end of the
island in the Nutiran Buka forest.

<<While all the evidence does point to a Nutiran landing but then it's
quite a long walk to this location.>>

Not necessarily.  I'd thought of it that way too, based on the one
time I walked around the island back in '89, but this year Tom
Roberts and one of the Nai'a's crew walked clear around the island in
about half a day, not hurrying.

<< They must have some compelling reason to make the trip.
Is it possible they saw this site from the air and figured out that
the vegetation,
terrain and topography gave them the best shot of being seen and
rescued especially
after their plane was washed over the reef. But they wouldn't have
seen such terrain
before during their various legs of their trip would they ?>>

Well, I don't know that the reason would have had to be so
compelling.  If you're trapped on an island, what are you going to
do?  Probably not just sit around forever; eventually you're going to
go exploring.  But yes, it's certainly possible, even probable that
they saw the Seven Site from the air, and its distinctive shape may
have given them hope of being seen there.  I think that the more
likely attractant was the large pool of often clear water perhaps
half a kilometer to the SE, at the future loran site; they might have
taken it for fresh water.  Unfortunately, it's not.

<<They might have heard the rescue planes, attempted to create smoke by
throwing some
items into the fire like you said but not enough smoke was created or
ended up killing
the fire instead.>>

Yes, and since the obvious object of interest on the island is the
Norwich City wreck at the NW end, it may be that the planes
concentrated their search there, as far as you can get from the Seven
Site and still be on the island.  All speculation, of course.

<< If there are no artifacts other than bones found at
the other fires sites
then I guess it lend weight to this idea.>>

It's not that there are no artifacts in the other fire sites -- there
are.  But they don't suggest people trying to burn things, and
they're not necessarily directly associated.  For instance, this year
we found a half-dozen M-1 shells "in" one of the fire features, but
they'd been fired (from a gun, that it), not "cooked off" in the
fire.  They're being checked by a metallurgist to see if there's
evidence that they were burned, but if there is it's certainly not
apparent to the human eye.  They were probably discharged from a
carbine fired by a target-shooting Coast Guardsman who happened to
stand near the place where the fire had been lit some years before.
None of the fire features is more than about 10 cm. deep, and the
whole surface of the site is made up of fairly loose coral rubble, so
there's no meaningful superposition of one thing over another that
would indicate time differences.  What's different about the stuff in
this year's two burn features is that in one case it apparently
represents a clothing item (the snap), while in the other it was -- I
think -- some kind of wooden item with hardware of various kinds,
plus some sort of ferrous container.

<<And that would have been tragic.>>

Yes, it's easy to imagine writing a very poignant story about all this.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:45:24
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Gardner Island/ Possible origin of artifacts on Southside

Thanks, Ron; that certainly puts the story in much better perspective.

Pelican did visit Niku on April 30, 1939, but the magistrate who was
there at that time was Koata; Jack Petro, the PISS Public Works
Officer, was also in residence.  But the bulk of the colonists had
literally just arrived, the day or so before.  However, the ten-man
working party had been there since the first of the year, and there
were some discontented folks in that party, who might have been
suitable for banishment.

On the other hand, the Pelican visited Manra (Sydney) the day before,
and there a delegation of officers and crew went ashore and met with
Gallagher, who was there at the time.  I'm guessing (only that) that
Chief Berger's "magistrate" recollection is a compression of two
events.  That says nothing about the banishment story, but of course,
at the time the Manra colony was a going concern, so institutions
like banishment to the far end of the island might (stress MIGHT)
have been better established.

Do you have the photos?  It would be great to get copies.

======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:54:50
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Gardner Island/ Possible origin of artifacts on Southside

What about the intel officer, Ron? would it be worthwhile to track
him down? I'm assuming he was much younger. Is that not so?

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:39:48
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Gardner Island/ Possible origin of artifacts on Southside

Not a bad idea to check on the intelligence officer guy. May have
been Navy or Coast Guard.  Berger, for what it is worth, claimed that
the Pelican was on some secret missions, possibly related to AE, and
that is why they were taking photos all over the place. In checking
Rics posting, Gallagher was not on Gardner when the Pelican visited,
so it was some other administrator. Berger thought he was on the
island about 6 hours, but it was probably more like two or three
hours. Berger, by this time well acquinted with Tighar's hypothesis,
also said he and others walked about the island looking for and
asking about Amelia. I would take that with a grain of salt.
REB
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:04:36
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Gardner Island/ Possible origin of artifacts on Southside

Ron Bright wrote:

> In checking
> Rics posting, Gallagher was not on Gardner when the Pelican visited,
> so it was some other administrator. Berger thought he was on the
> island about 6 hours, but it was probably more like two or three
> hours.

Like I said, Gallagher was on Manra at the time.  Koata was the
Native Magistrate on Nikumaroro, and Jack Kimo Petro was there as
well.  Hard to say how long Pelican was at Niku, but they were
certainly at Manra more than two or three hours, because Gallagher
came aboard there and dined with the officers.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:58:22
From:         Chuck Buzbee
Subject:      P-38

RESURFACED P-38 MAY BE WORLD'S OLDEST
<http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/998-full.html#196581>
Investigators and historians have confirmed that an aircraft wreck
that emerged from the sands of a Wales beach over the summer is a
P-38 Lightning, not an unmanned drone as first reports indicated. Ric
Gillespie, executive director of The International Group for Historic
Aircraft Recovery (TIGHAR), visited the wreck last month and was able
to positively identify it from a serial number. He said it may be the
oldest P-38 in existence and the oldest surviving 8th Air Force
combat aircraft of any type. "In that respect it's a major find, of
exceptional interest to British and American aviation historians," he
told The Associated Press. The P-38 was built in 1941, reached
Britain in early 1942, and flew combat missions along the Dutch-
Belgian coast, according to the AP. Second Lt. Robert F. "Fred"
Elliott, 24, of Rich Square, N.C., ditched in the shallow water near
the beach after running out of fuel. Shifting sands covered the
wreck, and its location was forgotten until erosion uncovered it this
year.

Chuck Buzbee

******************************************

Please note: There is NO, repeat NO, positive ID yet. The plate has
not yet been viewed.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:00:29
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      The PISS

Tom, your mention of Sydney has sparked my memory. Gallagher had
already impressed both British colonial officers and Gilbertese by
the time he got to Manra island (Sydney) in December 1938.

Maude had high praise for Gallagher's work on Manra, writing, "...two
prosperous villages were now situated, with neat and attractive homes
fronting both sides of the broad road. To the south of the villages
had been built a large school, where the children received daily
instruction from a full-time master; to the north lay the island
government station, with its offices, storehouses, homes for the
resident officials, and two small gaols, which happily still remained
untenanted..."

LTM, who might say gaol rather than jail
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:01:11
From:         Monty Fowler
Subject:      Sigh...

The discovery of the beach-bound P-38 in England was the talk of the
aircraft section on a scale modeling forum I frequent, with most of it
revolving around how soon this specimen could be turned into Glacier
Girl II. I chimed in and said I hoped they DIDN'T restore it to flying
condition, since it was far more valuable as a one-of-a-kind time
capsule of a specific point in our history. You'd have thought I waltzed
into a holiday party and loudly announced, "I just raped your grandma!"
Some of the suggestions were anatomically impossible, to say the least.

LTM, who likes looking for time capsules,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189CE
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:01:44
From:         Dan Posteloon
Subject:      Re: P-38

Very nice.  I like the name "Maid of Harlech".  For those into
obscure folk songs, the tune "Men of Harlech" is the music for the
song "Woad".
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:02:25
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Gardner Island/ Possible origin of artifacts on Southside

Ron, do you know the Intel guy's full name?

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:13:21 -0800
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Gardner Island/ Possible origin of artifacts on Southside

The name of the intell officer was C.D. Simonson, Navy officer. I am  
sure someone of the Tighars has the crew list of the USS Pelican for  
April 1937.
A  C. H. Stedman, was the Chief aboard, and went ashore too.
Ron B
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:16:52 -0800
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

> Yes, its easy to emajine writing avery poignant story about all this.
    Dr King, are you concidering writing a story?
   I went back and read "An answering wave",  the signs of recent  
habitation phrase got me thinking-  tracks in the sand of the lagoon  
- debris stood up in an unnatural position - sticks upright on  
beach,  maybe arranged in a direction.  Habitation has the  
connotation of living there.
   Passing so close to the 7-site, the term habitation may mean  
activity there, such as dead branches arranged to provide shade,  
perhaps a "lean to" that after a week had discolored enough to be  
noticeable. This scenario would cause circling to get a better look,  
and some zooming  for a response.
    Lambrecht later recalled the signs as markers, perhaps a pile of  
wood for burning.  I can't help but think that the flyer would want  
to go back, but were overuled by superiors.
    Ah, but all this is speculation,  I got carried away!

LTM who always brought us back to reality.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:28:59 -0800
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      P-38 participation

Reed Riddle asks:

> TIGHAR Tracks mentions that there is a possibility of going to
> Wales in the spring to help with the recovery.....Ric, could you
> please explain the details of that?

We'll have the full details up on the TIGHAR website soon but,
basically:

We'll be augmenting the TIGHAR Recovery Team with a limited number of 
Sponsor Team Members. The arrangement is similar to the very
successful program we've used on several Earhart expeditions except,
in this case, the price is lower and the restrictions are fewer.

- You'll be away from home for a week or two in a wonderful medieval
town with a spectacular castle (instead of a month on a boat in the
middle of the Pacific).

- No 100¡ heat, no scaevola, no sharks, and no crabs (okay, maybe a
few crabs).

- No need to be in top physical condition.  If you can walk on a
beach you can be of service to the recovery operation.

Maid of Harlech Sponsor Team Members will make a $5,000 up-front
contribution to TIGHAR to help fund the recovery planning and will
further pledge to make at least a $15,000 contribution toward the
recovery operation once the plan and the date have been set.  We're
not sure just when those plans will be finalized but it will
certainly be after the first of the year.  At this time it looks like
the recovery operation will probably take place some time in May or
June (long days, good weather, calm seas).

Travel and accommodation expenses will vary greatly with individual
distances and tastes, so we won't try to add that into the
contribution. We will, however, help with hotel reservations and try
to negotiate some special rates.  We'll also run a shuttle service
from Manchester (the closest airport with international service) to
Harlech (about 2.5 hours) where the recovery operation will be based
- so no need to rent a car.  (There's virtually no parking in Harlech  
anyway.)

Anyone interested in becoming a Sponsor Team Member should contact me
directly at tigharic@mac.com

Ric Gillespie
Executive Director
TIGHAR
www.tighar.org
tigharic@mac.com
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:34:12
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

<<Dr King, are you considering writing a story?>>

Not about Earhart and Noonan per se, but I was about 20 chapters into
a novel built around the bones discovery when we went to Niku this
year and I found that I had it figured all wrong.  Now if I could
just figure out what actually happened.....

LTM, who likes a good read but doubts whether this will be one.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:22:12
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

    You have such a good recall for the bare facts, and the what ifs
has been discussed on this forum, that I think a great story could be
based on the whole mystery.  A story with a much greater wealth of
human endeaver, and daring, than the pathetic storys of the past.  Mr
Gillespe had written with  great detail  of what facts Tighar has
been able to dig up and assemble into a Documentary, an historic
work.  This organization has built a very good reputation, and we see
that evidence today with the Lightning on the Wales beach.
    Go for it Dr King.  mike P
LTM
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:23:30
From:         Dennis Mcgee
Subject:      AGAIN?!?!?!?

Oh, no!  Not another one!!!  When are you going to stop finding all
of these damned airplanes, Ric???  Or at least becoming involved in
those airplanes others find.  I mean, you've becoming a serial
archaeologist and people are starting to talk.
     First there was that madness up in Maine and later in St. John's,
then the Tomb of  Doom thingy in Germany, followed by the Beast of
Bayonne out in the swamps of New Jersey.  Then some time in the 1990s
there must have been a whole month of full moons because the Earhart
Mystery spontaneously resurrected and has since refused to go gentle
into that good night.  Tangentially, Earhart begat the Devestator
discovery and has led to this flash of lightning in Wales --and what
better place to witness lightning than in a Welch castle, or perhaps
one in Scotland?
    Nonetheless we now have at least five (I'm leaving Germany out of
this) leads on aircraft that really and truely need to be preserved,
or at least accounted for.  Good heavens, man, you have now forced me
into a decision I've been avoiding for years -- which TIGHAR project
to support.  Of course, I love them all but -- and you KNEW this was
coming -- which is the most deserving, or most needy.
     My real problem is that I've acquired over the past 10 years a
"high maintenance" hobby which my wife does not fully support --
hell, she doesn't support it at all, really  -- specifically,
restoring my 1967 Ford Fairlane 500XL.   I have a private, double-
secret, codeword-protected lock box to fund the restoration, and from
which any TIGHAR donations would have to be funded.
     So.  I'll leave it up to the Forum to decide: do I buy those NOS
("new obsolete stock" -- factory new and unused) door and window
handles or make a contribution to The Maid of Harlech or one of her
sister projects?

LTM,
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC

======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:08:46
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: Again?

Dennis, all I can say is, "scratch an old car buff and I'll show you
an industrial archaeologist."

LTM, whose notions of fun have, in their many and twisted ways, even
reached to browsing online databases of 1960s era serial numbers.

PS: I think Maid of Harlech is a wonderful name!
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:09:14
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Gardner Island/ Possible origin of artifacts on Southside

Ron, I lost my head. If Simonson was only 20 he would be 90 now. It
is not likely anyone is still alive from that ship and if so nearly
senile. I must not have had my coffee.

Alan

======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:10:37
From:         Chin Koon Fun
Subject:      Re: Nikumaroro

If I may add, perhaps signs of recently burnt out fires ?

Koon Fun Chin #2689

> From Mike Piner:
>
>    Lambrecht later recalled the signs as markers, perhaps a pile of
> wood for burning.  I can't help but think that the flyer would want
> to go back, but were overuled by superiors.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:10:37
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Stretched Resources

Congratulations on adding another project to the TIGHAR menu.  I am
pleased that TIGHAR is gaining such a prestigious international
reputation but I worry that it may also be setting itself up for a
huge disappointment.

With a limited full time staff and a limited non-allocated cash-flow
it seems to me that TIGHAR may be heading into that situation where
it has more on its plate than it can handle.  We all know of people
or organizations that have many many projects that lack the resources
in terms of manpower and/or finances to move each project forward in
a coordinated way i.e. what is popular at the moment gets the
attention of the whole.

I haven't read about an organizational plan to appoint a "project
manager" for each of the pending activities under TIGHAR's care.
Without this kind of organizational restructuring how can you handle
recovering the P-38 in Wales if at the same time you get the go ahead
on the Devastator recovery half a world away or perhaps a
serendipitous break in the Earhart project?  This doesn't even take
into consideration the TIGHAR Tracks, the various forums, the web
sites, the interviews, book writing, etc.

If you plan on putting one or the other projects on hold while
concentrating your limited resources on another you risk losing the
momentum and enthusiasm of other 3rd parties supporting their own
favorite.

I don't want this to be taken as a criticism of how TIGHAR handles
its business but more as a suggestion to take a step back and look at
the big picture of where do you want TIGHAR to be in 5, 10 or 15
years. It is going to be hard to do but it needs to be done Ric.

Ted Campbell

======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:48:50
From:         Jeff Lange
Subject:      Re: Stretched Resources

To all our forum readers:

      I can see where people might get the impression that TIGHARS'
plate is too full for its own good, but consider that both the
Devastator project and the P-38 will be done in conjunction with
other officials / authorities helping and overseeing. The job is not
totally in our hands alone. TIGHAR will be there to provide its
unique expertise in the field of aviation archeology / recovery /
preservation as it always has. Thank God we aren't trying to do all
of this on our own!!!

      As far as funding on a limited budget- like many of you, I face
that decision all the time. Luckily I own my own business and have
the authority to use my funds as I see fit- no interference from the
spouse! ( Within reason of course-If I came home and said I just
committed $20,000 to TIGHAR she would have me committed!! ) That
said, I have just sent in a check to TIGHAR with a small contribution
to all 3 of the projects that were listed on the flyer that came in
the TIGHAR Tracks. It has been awhile since I have done that, so I
felt it was due. Feel free to imitate my actions if you wish ( hint
hint ).

      I imagine that with the news of this recent discovery there will
be many people who will be willing to support this project. Surviving
veterans of the 8th Air Force, their spouses, or children, other Vets
who piloted or serviced the same type of craft, etc. There are a lot
of people out there who will be moved by this discovery. We just need
to be sure that the accurate information gets out to the public.

      Keep up the good work!

Jeff Lange # 0748C
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:37:04
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Gardner Island/ Possible origin of artifacts on Southside

Studs Terkel, author, is still alive and sharp at 95!!! But the
likely hood of finding a 90 year is remote, but he could have left
behind photos etc like Berger of the Norwich City. Recall I found the
observer with LT Fox who flew over Niku looking for AE and he was
about 87. He saw the Norwich City but no AE!!

Ron Bright
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:00:55
From:         Terry Thorgaard
Subject:      Re: Gardner Island/ Possible origin of artifacts on Southside

A 90 year old is not necessarily nearly senile.  But probably (within
a decade or so at best) nearly dead.  In any event, if a witness is
to be found, it's always best to find him or her on this side of
senility and death.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 18 Nov 2007 11:04:37
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Limited resources

Jeff,
As I said, limited resources are not entirely a matter of funding but
also a matter of manpower.  Who's in charge of a particular project?
Who is the person on the scene with the authority to make decisions,
spend money as needed, call in additional resources (men and
material), deal with Press issues, permits, etc.  Historically it has
fallen into Ric's lap and his lap is finite in size.

Try and look at each project as a separate "business unit" within a
larger corporation.  Each unit should contribute to a portion of the
corporate overhead on some equitable bases e.g. insurance cost,
publication cost, etc., but at the same time be accountable in
maintaining a viable and separate business plan.  There will be times
when one project becomes stale in its ability to generate funds to
support itself and its obligations to the corporation and tough
decisions will have to be made.  Simply moth balling a project
doesn't shut off its expenses.

Finally, if I had to guess there a zillion things that Ric would like
to pursue under each of the TIGHAR projects but time and money stands
in his way.  Assign the project to a "manager" and give him/her their
head and stand back and see what happens - I think amazing things.

Ted Campbell
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:17:46
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: Limited resources

> From: Ted Campbell
>
> As I said, limited resources are not entirely a matter of funding
> but also a matter of manpower.  Who's in charge of a particular
> project?  Who is the person on the scene with the authority to make
> decisions, spend money as needed, call in additional resources (men
> and material), deal with Press issues, permits, etc.  Historically
> it has fallen into Ric's lap and his lap is finite in size.

Now that the first book is done (congratulations, Ric!),
I think Ric has got all the time and energy necessary
to take care of TIGHAR's projects.

He is not unwilling to ask for help and to share authority
when circumstances call for it.

TIGHAR has some great leaders who could step in and take
over individual projects if two or more irons in the
fire needed attention at the same time.

> ... if I had to guess there a zillion things that Ric would like to
> pursue under each of the TIGHAR projects but time and money stands
> in his way.  Assign the project to a "manager" and give him/her
> their head and stand back and see what happens - I think amazing
> things.

Ric and Pat do amazing things all year long.  I doubt that there
is enough work to keep another person gainfully employed.
I think that a volunteer "business manager" would just make
decision-making more difficult rather than more effective.

				Marty #2359
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:19:54
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Limited resources

> Assign the project to a "manager" and give him/her their
> head and stand back and see what happens - I think amazing things.

Actually, TIGHAR has done this kind of assignment from time to time,
and sometimes it's worked quite well.  Other times not.  For
instance, Gary Quigg and John Clauss mostly managed the Yap project,
and it went off like clockwork.  Bill Carter largely organized the
survey of the Idaho Electra, and I don't recall exactly who was
technically in charge of the Alaska Electra survey, but both those
studies went well.  On the other hand, my effort to more or less
coordinate a smallish committee to plan Niku research and raise money
for it has been pretty much a bust; we got a fair amount of planning
done, but didn't raise a dime.

So, I don't disagree with you in principle, but I think it's more
complicated than just assigning a manager, particularly when one
isn't in a position to pay the manager anything.  TIGHAR managers
other than Ric have been able to do fine running fieldwork projects,
including all the logistics and diplomacy, but where we've all fallen
down is in garnering the financial support to make things happen.
That, thus far, has been Ric's unique contribution.

LTM, who says to follow the money.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:43:48
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Limited resources

For Ted Campbell

I appreciate your concern and advice but please understand that the
view from the Earhart Forum does not necessarily present a complete
picture of what happens at TIGHAR.  While it is true that I seldom
find myself casting about for something to occupy myself these days,
neither do I feel in the least bit overburdened by my duties and
responsibilities.  I'm pleasantly whelmed but not overwhelmed. As
Marty has pointed out, we're blessed with an impressive array of
highly competent and experienced TIGHAR's who take much of the load
off me.  I would start listing names but this posting would quickly
become too long.

There was a time when I led every expedition, taught every course,
and wrote every report - but for at least the past four years more
TIGHAR expeditions have gone to the field without me than with me.
The Tinian Expedition; the Niku Vp expedition; the expeditions to
examine Lockheed 10 crash sites in New Zealand, Idaho and Alaska; the
Yap Survey; the Jaluit portion of Devastator Project Evaluation
Expedition; all these and more were carried out with great success
without my on-site participation. The Archaeological Field School at
College Park Airport was taught primarily by Tom King and Gary Quigg.

As the organization has matured, I find myself increasingly "flying a
desk" but there are still field operations where my presence is
beneficial to the organization, not so much because my leadership is
needed (it isn't) but because, to do the all important fundraising
Tom King referred to, I need to be personally present where the
action is.

As for the Maid of Harlech, I can honestly say that there was never a
moment's doubt that this was an aviation historic preservation
opportunity and emergency that we needed to grab with both hands.

Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:39:26
From:         Terry Thorgaard
Subject:      Re: "Seven Site" crash landing scenario

On the 15th of this month I ruminated about the possibility that AE
crashed landed at the 7 site.  I suggested that the evidence for a
landing near the Norwich City wreck is, after all, slim.

There is the fact, if the "Betty diary" indeed does contain notes of
radio transmissions from the Electra, that what sounded like "New
York" to Betty may have been references to the Norwich City.  If, let
us say, the plane circled the island before crashing at the "7 site",
they may well have seen the name of the ship.  Not knowing where they
were, they might have later recalled it as "New York or something
like that".  Granted, if it had been me transmitting, I think I would
have said "a wreck of a ship named ____". But we know the radio
messages were somewhat garbled and Betty only jotted down a few notes.

I also recognize that there are reports of aluminum pieces scattered
in the lagoon, and that prevailing weather patterns would suggest
that such pieces would tend to come from the Nutiran end of the
island.  I would only ask how many of these reports are verified by
physical evidence (the aluminum itself, rather than reports of
aluminum), and of these, how many can be with any reliability
associated with an Electra (or indeed with any plane wrecked on or
about the island itself)?
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:18:15
From:         Reed Riddle
Subject:      Re: "Seven Site" crash landing scenario

> There is the fact, if the "Betty diary" indeed does contain notes
> of radio transmissions from the Electra, that what sounded like
> "New York" to Betty may have been references to the Norwich City.
> If, let us say, the plane circled the island before crashing at the
> "7 site", they may well have seen the name of the ship.  Not
> knowing where they were, they might have later recalled it as "New
> York or something like that".  Granted, if it had been me
> transmitting, I think I would have said "a wreck of a ship named
> ____". But we know the radio messages were somewhat garbled and
> Betty only jotted down a few notes.

The search flight that went over a week after the loss stayed above
500ft due to the worry about birds (and their experience at McKean).
If it was me, and I saw a lot of birds in the area, I'd stay as high
as possible until the final shot at landing.  That may mean it would
be difficult to read the name off the ship from flying over it, and
since the ship had been there for a while the name might have not
been easy to read except on the ground in any case.

This does not preclude them walking around the island to look for
survival stuff, and reading the ship name when they walked over
there, and then going back to the Electra wherever it landed. But, I
wouldn't bet on a bunch of low passes over the island....at that
point, they likely only circled once to decide the best place to land
and then put it down as fast as possible.  Would you rather land next
to a ship at the island (even a wreck), or on the other side of the
island from it?

> I also recognize that there are reports of aluminum pieces
> scattered in the lagoon, and that prevailing weather patterns would
> suggest that such pieces would tend to come from the Nutiran end of
> the island.  I would only ask how many of these reports are
> verified by physical evidence (the aluminum itself, rather than
> reports of aluminum), and of these, how many can be with any
> reliability associated with an Electra (or indeed with any plane
> wrecked on or about the island itself)?

All of the aluminum found by TIGHAR that might be related to the
Electra has come from the areas near the shipwreck.  You have to come
up with a plausible explanation of how that material would be trekked
several miles across the island; the Electra being dashed to bits
near the shipwreck explains why the bits are in that area pretty well.

In the end, unless we find something like the engines (which would be
difficult to cart away), we won't know where the Electra came to
rest.  The most likely place, based on the evidence now, is that they
landed near the Norwich City and then walked around the island to
find a better place to survive, which is quite plausible on such a
small island.

					Reed

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Reed L. Riddle
Research Scientist, Thirty Meter Telescope Corporation Site Testing
Program
2632 E. Washington Blvd.
Pasadena, CA 91107
Homepage:  http://web.mac.com/drriddle/iWeb/Home/home.html

"This life has been a test.  If it had been an actual life, you would
   have received actual instructions on where to go and what to do."
                                  -- Angela Chase, "My so-called life"
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:57:01
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Re: "Seven Site" crash landing scenario

> Reed wrote;
>   "The most likely place, based on the evidence now, is that they
> landed near the Norwich City and then walked around the island to
> find a better place to survive, which is quite plausible on such a
> small island."

Where could there possibly be a better place to survive than in the
trees in front of the Norwich City, where there was a ton of survival
gear, (i.e., fresh water, a tent, food, medical supplies, and even a
boat), all left there by the NC rescuers years before.  Why would
anybody want to leave all of that?

Don J.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:06:36
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Seven site crash landing

Terry Thorgaard:  " . . . . I ruminated about the possibility that AE
crashed landed at the 7 site."

    AE/FN did not crash on Niku;  TIGHAR's theory is they executed a
forced landing, necessitated by imminent fuel starvation.
     I'll let the other members debate the location of that forced
landing.

LTM, who often crashed and burned
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:05:56
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: "Seven Site" crash landing scenario

> All of the aluminum found by TIGHAR that might be related to the
> Electra has come from the areas near the shipwreck.

Not quite.  All the aluminum found by TIGHAR, with the exception of
one fragment of clear military origin, has come from in or around the
colonial village, to which it was presumably brought by the colonists
from elsewhere.  The military fragment noted above was found onshore
on Nutiran, at the site of a building probably put up in the 1950s.

The evidence for the Nutiran reef flat as the landing site includes:

1. Emily Sikuli's report of what she was told was aircraft wreckage
there.
2. Items that show up in aerial photography of the reef flat that
have reflective signatures consistent with aluminum, and
3. The fact that it would have been a good place to land, in that it
presents a large, smooth, flat surface with no obstructions and not
too many holes or cracks.

The New York City/Norwitch City equation is consistent with a landing
on the Nutiran reef flat, as is the decimation of the food cache
there as depicted in the 1938 New Zealand team's photograph, but I
wouldn't call either thing evidence for a landing there.

As for why they'd leave the food cache -- two reasons come to mind.
A: they wiped out the cache, and B: they wanted to see if there was
anything to eat/drink elsewhere on the island.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:06:22
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Fun with Google

Forumites looking for a little fun might want to access Google Earth
and ask to be flown to "Gardner Island."  You'll see excellent almost-
current satellite imagery of Niku, and one interesting thing to do is
to tilt the image so you seem to be approaching the island from the
north at maybe 1000 feet -- hypothetically, an Earhart-eye view of
the place.  There's also good imagery of Manra ("Sydney"), Orona
("Hull") Kanton ("Canton"), and Enderbury, and a strangely distorted
image of McKean that perhaps represents the atmospheric effects of
all that bird poop.

======================================================================= 
Date:         Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:18:22
From:         Mike Piner
Subject:      Landing on Gardner

We are all very good at conjecture, and supposition.  Try this;
FN knew that their direction would take them near Mckeon or Gardner,
and the elapsed time and speed, indicated to him that it was probably
Gardner Island, but he was roughed up in the landing, and couldn't
get it across to a wildly excited AE.  She was frantically trying to
get something out on the radio Hence all kinds of directions and
numbers, and NY NY NY, meaning  Norwich City, For all we know Betty
heard with the bad and fading reception "Norwich City" but
intrepreted it "NY" in her notes.  I suspect stuff floated out of the
plane and they gathered it up and floated an injured FN down the
Lagoon until the found the cool breeze blowingthru  that bare spot at
7 site.  where they camped and ultimately perished, having never
found those supplies.  The meager findings at & site sort of
indicates this.
LTM
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:20:22
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Landing on Gardner

Mike Piner writes:

> I suspect stuff floated out of the
> plane and they gathered it up and floated an injured FN down the
> Lagoon until the found the cool breeze blowingthru  that bare spot at
> 7 site.

It'd be a long float -- about 2.5 miles, and while the Nutiran shore
isn't the most pleasant part of the island, if you don't know there's
anyplace better, there's not much reason to go to a lot of trouble to
relocate -- until the food runs out and you've explored the immediate
vicinity thoroughly enough to know that there's not much there
(except fish, crabs, and birds, plentiful all over).  And although
it's hard to say what one would have felt in '37, you don't feel the
breeze blowing through the Seven Site gap today until you get up on
the surge ridge, well away from the lagoon shore.  Our KAP team had a
hard time getting the kite in the air from the lagoon side of the
Seven Site; the breeze is effectively blocked by the ridge.

Assuming Betty's notes actually indicate that Fred was hurt on
landing or shortly thereafter, one possibility is that he never made
it away from the Nutiran shore (where Emily Sikuli, in a rather
confusing account, says that bones were found -- which, however,
could have been from Norwich City crewmen), and that Earhart started
exploring the island only after he'd died, ultimately winding up
alone at the Seven Site.  All speculation, of course.

LTM (who prefers walking to drifting in water full of sharklets)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:35:56
From:         Terry Thorgaard
Subject:      Re: Landing on Gardner

Mike makes some good points.

If  fish, crabs, and birds, are plentiful all over, including
Nutiran, moving would be explained by the "grass is always greener on
the other side of the fence" syndrome:  unless you go there you will
never know.  After a while, for a castaway stranded on a desert
island, apparently the urge to explore grows more and more
irresistable.  If literature is any guide.

If Norwich City bones were found, Fred's bones may well have been
mixed up with them.  We'll never know.

Walking would have been my choice too.  And building a raft, I think
would have presented itself as more work (not to mention danger) than
simply walking.  With no evidence that Fred ever made it to the Seven
Site (other than the report that what may have been the box for his
sextant was once found there), the idea of floating an injured FN
doesn't really make weight for the raft theory.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:03:13
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: Landing on Gardner

Terry Thorgaard wrote:

> ... no evidence that Fred ever made it to the Seven Site (other
> than the report that what may have been the box for his sextant was
> once found there) ...

My belief is that Amelia would have used the sextant box
to carry her diary with her.

I have no evidence whatsoever for the belief, other than
that the diary would have been worth megabucks if she and
it had survived.

Other, less dramatic, hypotheses for what she might have
used the box for might be imagined, of course.

				Marty  #2359