Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 12:01:45 From: Don Neumann Subject: Re: Nine yards Interesting website in answer to Jerry hamilton's query about ...'whole nine yards'... origin... Don N. ********************** The Whole Nine Yards http://www.yaelf.com/nineyards.shtml ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 12:02:39 From: Skeet Gifford Subject: Re: Nine yards Jerry Hamilton wrote: >Aviation quiz - where did the term "whole nine yards" come from? There is an on-going debate on the origin of this term. I always thought that it had to do with football, as in "Third Down and nine yards to go," but the term goes much farther back than the game of football. Others claimed it came from WW II fighter aircraft that were armed with.50 caliber machine gun ammunition belts measured 27 feet, before being loaded into the wing ammo bays. If the pilot fired all his rounds during a mission, he got "the whole 9 yards." Another interesting derivation equated it to a triple-masted schooner with 3 yards per mast, meaning "at full sail," the whole nine yards was deployed. It has been traced back to 1823, where it was used to refer to the chain attaching two cannon balls which was used to bring down enemy ship's rigging. Finally, the one that gets my vote is from the early British army, where the soldiers were issued nine yards of cloth and were then required to either make or have made for them a uniform. If they really did it up fancy, they used "the whole nine yards". ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 12:37:22 From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Nine yards The explanation I've always heard was that a bolt of cloth was nine yards long. thus if you made a dress or something out of an entire bolt of cloth you used "the whole nine yards." As for Skeet's suggestion for three 3-foot sails . . . nine square feet wouldn't make much of a sail for an ocean going vessel, I'd think. Even three of them would be inadequate. IMHO. LTM, who avoids lengthy discussions Dennis McGee #0149EC p.s. I have purposely NOT followed JHAM's links for the "e- definition" of this item. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 20:43:38 From: Rick Boardman Subject: Re: Some stuff My money's on "the whole nine yards" being a British naval term with reference to hoisting all available sail..... LTM, who was occasionally three sheets to the wind... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 20:44:00 From: Rick Boardman Subject: Nine yards Err.... a yard is the yardarm which extends out from the main boom on a sailing ship, from which you run out more sail. It's not a reference to a sail one square yard in area... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 10:35:10 From: George R. Werth Subject: Re: Nine yards A Bolt of Cloth is a standard unit of length used in the fabric industry-- 36.576 m = 40 yards = 120 feet = 1440 inches Source: >diracdelta.co.uk< George R Werth TIGHAR Member #2630 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 10:35:28 From: Alfred Hendrickson Subject: Re: Nine yards The expression "the whole nine yards" comes from the old city planners, who used to lay out city blocks that were square, with nine houses on each side of the street. Then, the postman would go down the street, delivering mail to "the whole nine yards". Same with the ice man (this is before refrigerators, remember!) and the newspaper boy. LTM, who knows that I just made all that up, Alfred Hendrickson #2583 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 11:24:32 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: nine yards So far, my money's on Rick Boardman and a big 27 foot yard arm. :) LTM, who sometimes doesn't have time to research these things herself... William Webster-Garman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:16:37 From: Ron Dawson Subject: Fred Noonan Former TIGHAR member Jackie Ferrari of Scotland has shared some of her extensive Noonan research with me. I felt it was significant enough to post on my Noonan website with her permission. Go to the frednoonan.com main page, then links, then Jackie's research. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson, 2126 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:02:43 From: Dave Porter Subject: Re: Nine yards I'm only posting this because the Forum's been a bit slow lately... During my recent Active Duty tour, I met an old retired Special Forces "Green Beret" type who told me that the term "the whole nine yards" referred to Green Beret Adviser missions from the early days of the US involvement in Viet Nam. Some advisers worked with the Montagnard tribesmen (who were often referred to -sometimes affectionately and sometimes as a racial slur- as "Yards") in the highlands, and those tribesmen were organized into nine-man teams. Some missions were fairly simple, and didn't require the whole team's involvement, but other missions required a maximum sustained effort from the entire team. Missions falling into the latter category became known as "going the whole nine Yards." LTM, who swears that I didn't just make that up, Dave Porter, 2288 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:03:12 From: Marcus Lind Subject: Re: Fred Noonan Many thanks to Pat for sharing the link to the FN website, and Jackie Ferari's research... Very interesting! Here is another link from Internet - about the new "commemorative project" about AE : http://www.petitiononline.com/AMEP1897/petition.html - it's not about research at all but - i thought - possibly can be interesting for the Members not indifferent to the "commemorative ideas" about AE's legacy... LTM - Best regards, Marcus Lind ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:24:57 From: Rick Jones Subject: New Member Questions After seeing Ric on the Today show, I went directly to the TIGHAR web site and indulged myself on the excellent research and reports available there. Of course I ordered "Finding Amelia" and after reading this spellbinding book, I found that I was "hooked", and sent in a membership application. The TIGHAR web site is pretty convoluted, so I've probably missed this somewhere, but could someone help me out? Two questions: 1.Was the Canton I. engine ever found? 2.What about the "Wreck Photo? Did it have anything to do with the wreckage alluded to in the New Britain project? http://www.electranewbritain.com/Page1.htm I'm looking forward to following this unfolding drama. Rick J(#TBD) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:43:17 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: New member questions 1.Was the Canton I. engine ever found? 2.What about the "Wreck Photo? Did it have anything to do with the wreckage alluded to in the New Britain project? Rick, The Canton engine was never found, origin, existence and type dubious. The wreck photo was of an airplane purported to be an Electra on an unidentified island. The owner of the picture has not been forth coming on any details. Various opinions have suggested it was a model 10E, not a 10E but rather another plane. The island scene clearly could not be identified as Gardner or any other known island. This was not the New Britain aircraft. The New Britain aircraft is the David Billings project whereby he has credible evidence of a plane believed to be a Lockheed Electra crashed in the jungles of New Britain. David has been given evidence leading him to believe the wreck is that of Amelia Earhart's plane. David has led several expeditions into the area but lack of funds make his efforts extremely difficult. David has a web site which explains his endeavors better than I can. www.electranewbritain.com Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:53:28 From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: New member questions >From Alan Caldwell > >Rick, The Canton engine was never found, origin, existence and type >dubious. Art Rypinski did a stunning, comprehensive, thoughtful, and entertaining presentation on the Quest for the Canton Engine at EPAC in 2003. I don't think it's been written up--or, rather, if it's been written up, I don't know where it is. As I recall, Art showed pretty conclusively that, given the logistics and standard operating procedures, no engine could have been hauled in from Niku to Canton. I think he had a candidate wreck on Canton itself that could have been the source of the mystery engine. And there was something in there about a cannon that got moved from place to place, I think. LTM. Marty #2359 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:44:18 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: New Member Questions New member Rick Jones asks: >1.Was the Canton I. engine ever found? No. Bruce Yoho was able to lead us to the dump where he had disposed of it, but the dump had subsequently been bulldozed and whatever is left of the engine is buried under tons of debris and coral rubble. Excavating the dump would be a huge undertaking. Further research has pretty much convinced us that Bruce's recollections were influenced by later events (happens to all of us). None of the pilots who served on Canton at the time he was there recall hauling any found objects back from the outer atolls. We do have a photo of Bruce and some of his friends standing, with shovels, beside a half- buried WWII-vintage engine on Canton. We suspect that the engine recovery incident he remembers happened right there on Canton. No reason to think it has anything to do with Amelia. 2.What about the "Wreck Photo? After many years of research and head-scratching, I'm convinced that the Wreck Photo shows a Tachikawa KI-54 "Hickory" advanced trainer. My belief is based upon the visible structural components and especially upon the presence of a small circular inspection plate on the nose. Did it have anything to do with the wreckage alluded to in the New Britain project? http://www.electranewbritain.com/Page1.htm No. In my opinion the New Britain Project is a monument to poor research and wishful thinking. Welcome aboard Rick. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:44:42 From: Alfred Hendrickson Subject: Re: New member questions Welcome aboard, Rick! I concur with Marty. As I recall, it has been pretty well conclusively determined that Bruce Yoho's engine did not come from Niku. I find David Billings' project to be quite interesting, frankly. The only solid evidence he has is a map with markings on it that purportedly relate to AE's engine. He does have statements from the soldiers that purportedly ran across the plane back in the 1940's. The statements, however, are not contemporary, making them less credible. Billings also has a recollection by one of the soldiers of a metal tag removed from the plane, but, alas, the whereabouts of the tag today are not known. In summary, all that can really be said is that Billings has some evidence of a New Britain plane crash and the model of the plane is unknown. I, for one, would love to know what plane is the subject of Billings' search. The Wreck Photo has long been one of my favorite topics. We had a gentleman on the Forum some years ago that provided pretty convincing evidence that the plane in the photo is a Ki-54, not an Electra. For the record, I don't think the W/P plane is our Electra 10E. Marty has an interesting Wreck Photo website. http://moleski.net/tighar/cowl.htm View it and draw your own conclusions. LTM, Alfred Hendrickson #2583 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:45:22 From: Alfred Hendrickson Subject: Re: New member questions Oh, and to directly answer Rick's question: >What about the "Wreck Photo? Did it have anything to do with the >wreckage alluded to in the New Britain project? It could be that the two are related. It could also be that they are not related at all. We have not ever specifically dealt with that issue on this Forum. LTM, Alfred Hendrickson #2583 ************************************************* .... because it is off-topic. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:25:55 From: Tom King Subject: Re: New member questions Rick -- Just to add to Alan's explanations: I hate (well, not really) to suggest you buy ANOTHER book, but Amelia Earhart's Shoes (AltaMira Press 2004) provides a good deal of updated information (current as of 2004) on both the Canton engine (which recent research by Arthur Rypinski, discussed in the book, has made seem even more dubious than before) and the wreck photo, which remains, at best, a mystery. Be sure to get the updated 2004 paperback, not the 2001 hardcover. LTM Tom King Thomas F. King, PhD Senior Archaeologist, The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery (TIGHAR) PO Box 14515, Silver Spring MD 20911, USA 240.475.0595, tfking106@aol.com www.tighar.org To purchase Amelia Earhart's Shoes (Updated Paperback Edition, 2004, AltaMira Press), visit www.altamirapress.com To purchase Ric Gillespie's Finding Amelia (Naval Institute Press, 2006), visit http://www.usni.org/webstore/shopexd.asp?id=49533 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:33:39 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: New Member Questions Rick, I have Amelia Earhart's Shoes and it is an outstanding book and a must have for your Earhart library. there are a lot of books to pass on but this isn't one of them. To gauge your book purchases on Earhart check out the supporting notes first and for most books you will quickly see little if any acceptable support. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:34:09 From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: New member questions >>2.What about the "Wreck Photo? > >After many years of research and head-scratching, I'm convinced >that the Wreck Photo shows a Tachikawa KI-54 "Hickory" advanced >trainer. > >My belief is based upon the visible structural components and >especially upon the presence of a small circular inspection plate >on the nose. Yes indeed - I have to agree. I've felt from an early stage that the proportions - especially the nose shape are a pretty good match for the Ki-54. There were over 1,300 built, and with only 2 fuselages still known to be extant there's no shortage of candidates for the photo! Interestingly, in his book "War Prizes", Phil Butler notes that a few Ki-54's were used by various foreign agencies in the immediate post- war period:- "The French forces in Indo-China after the Japanese surrender in 1945 utilised a number of Japanese aircraft. Details of these are incomplete but known information is as follows:- "Tachikawa Ki-54 'Hickory' - four in use, 1946-198, by SLAc99" And MOST interestingly of all:- "Of the 'Hickorys', two suffered recorded accidents: No. 2 - crashed 30 miles NW of Saigon after engine failure on 23rd April 1946. No. 4 - crashed into trees on takeoff at Tha Ngon on 5th April 1946" Either of these two would be good candidates for our "Wreck Photo" - in the case of 'No.2', note the intact engine/prop in the photo which may indicate a stationary/failed engine at the time of a possible crash. LTM - who loves Hickory Simon Ellwood #2120 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:01:50 From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: new member questions >From Alfred Hendrickson > >I concur with Marty. As I recall, it has been pretty well conclusively >determined that Bruce Yoho's engine did not come from Niku. Art's lecture was breathtaking. It was a jewel of historical research and careful reasoning. And, if I remember correctly, he brought along someone from the helicopter unit whose materials he had used to understand the workings of the base. >The Wreck Photo has long been one of my favorite topics. We had a gentleman >on the Forum some years ago that provided pretty convincing evidence that >the plane in the photo is a Ki-54, not an Electra. For the record, I don't >think the W/P plane is our Electra 10E. Marty has an interesting Wreck Photo >website. View it and draw your own >conclusions. If anybody tried to get to the page this afternoon, they may have found it missing. I've put it back up, along with Ric's statement about the wreck. The page is NOT a jewel of historical research and careful reasoning. :o( LTM. Marty #2359 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:51:38 From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Re: Fred Noonan Ron: Can Jackie Ferrari substantiate any of the following quote from her research? "His life prospered until he joined Pan American Airways. In many ways this was the zenith of his career but it was also when his personal troubles began, ending in his dismissal from PAA. The phrase used was 'sent to the Cincinnati Division'. The rumors of heavy drinking sadly seem to be true but this is not surprising considering the enormous weight on his shoulders." Being true, and seeming to be true, are two different things. I'd be curious to know if she is just repeating old rumors, or if she has uncovered some new evidence. Thanks Andrew McKenna ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:56:02 From: Marty Joy Subject: Re: Nine yards Sorry Pal, that is not right. The "whole nine yards" refers to the length of the ammo belt loaded in P51 mustangs during WW2. ****************************** I've been doing a little casual research and it seems that actually -- no one really knows where it came from, but it's pretty recent (50 years or so). Interesting that such a simple term could be so obscure. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:57:23 From: Chin Koon Fun Subject: Re: New member questions I lived at the tropics and the fauna and tress in the background of the wreck photo resemble that of a secondary rain forest. You see these in places like Indonesia, Malaysia. Locally it's called "balukar' - essentially a dense undergrowth interspersed with tall trees. The trees in the background of the photo are coconut trees. The fact that they are straight and tall in the photo suggest to me that the location is not subject to strong and consistent winds. I have not visited Niku so I can't make any comparisons but from reading Dr. King's book my sense is that it is not Niku. Koon Fun Chin 2689 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:07:34 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Fred Noonan "His life prospered until he joined Pan American Airways. In many ways this was the zenith of his career but it was also when his personal troubles began, ending in his dismissal from PAA. The phrase used was 'sent to the Cincinnati Division'. The rumors of heavy drinking sadly seem to be true but this is not surprising considering the enormous weight on his shoulders." Andrew, I don't know of anything to support this paragraph. I don't know what "prospered" means in terms of the 1920s and 30s. I don't know the "many ways" one could determine a zenith in the man's life. I don't know that he was "dismissed" or was a "heavy" drinker or that his drinking had an affect on his job performance. I read one account that he was not thrilled with a particular job change but who hasn't had that experience. I don't know what all of his "personal troubles" were or how significant they were. I also don't know what the "enormous weight" on his shoulders was. Fred was an Irishman and like me and most Irish I have known they take enjoyment in the pubs at times. When all of this was hashed out earlier I don't recall any proof other than "rumors" and repetitions from earlier books. If anyone has documented evidence to support any of this I would like to know. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:09:40 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Fred Noonan BTW, "documented evidence" is NOT someone's book. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:17:07 From: Alfred Hendrickson Subject: Re: Fred Noonan Alan writes: >BTW, "documented evidence" is NOT someone's book. I'll second that one, Alan. Just because it's in a book doesn't make it true. It puts me in mind of people who offer up a bit of information and, when pressed for the source, they reply, "I read it somewhere." You read it somewhere, huh? Well, that seals it in stone for me! LTM, Alfred Hendrickson #2583 ************************************ Well, it's *slightly* better than "I saw it on tv." :-/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:57:54 From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Fred Noonan Aw c'mon folks...if you read it on the Internet, it has to be factual! LTM, who tries to read the entire Internet every day. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 20:19:58 From: Rick Boardman Subject: Re: Fred Noonan Alan Caldwell wrote: >BTW, "documented evidence" is NOT someone's book. At the risk of kicking something off here, this is reading a tad snobbish. I've just spent a month reading how a certain book is a definitive treatise on all the evidence (to date) in support of the Niku hypothesis. In ten years time, it's possible that this could be on a shelf, and therefore "a book I read somewhere". Surely notwithstanding real evidence like Gallaghers camera with undeveloped film in it, or a chunk of Electra 10E emerging from the depths one stormy night on Niku, a book is a form of evidence, so long as the appendices at the back lists the relevant references? LTM , who still thinks "the whole 9 yards" is a naval sailing reference..... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 20:20:40 From: George Werth Subject: Pambu For Ric Did the inquiry in the Pambu Newsletter ever yield any results? Click here: http://rspas.anu.edu.au/pambu/newsletters/PambuMay2001.htm#C George R. Werth TIGHAR Member # 2630 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 21:20:07 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Fred Noonan For Rick Boardman Thanks, Rick; I had a kind of uncomfortable feeling about seeming to put down books as "evidence," too. For obvious reasons, I suppose. But I don't think Alan meant to discount books per se, but only the notion that if something's in a book it must be true. There's a big difference between a book that presents evidence that can be independently verified and a book that presents unverifiable speculation or hearsay allegations. At least, I'd like to think so. LTM Tom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:02:13 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Fred Noonan You're right, Tom. It isn't the book that's the problem it is the documentary support for the points made in the book. Ric's book, for example and yours, of course, contains acceptable support for the issues contained therein. That's why I suggested looking at the footnotes and the chapter notes to see if those items are actually support. some books have footnotes referring to other books or someone's comment. That's not acceptable. You notice the footnotes in Ric's book refer to actual documents. You will see in other books a point made refers to something in Doris Rich's book or Gervais, etc. Not good. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:02:31 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Fred Noonan Rick, the footnotes in Ric's book refer to actual documents. That's a huge difference. Read the footnotes in other Earhart books and compare. The difference is amazing. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:03:01 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Fred Noonan >a book is a form of evidence, so long as the >appendices at the back lists the relevant references? Yep, but if there were any supportable references on that web page, I missed 'em. LTM, whose love for shoes extended to footnotes William Webster-Garman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:46:53 From: Ron Dawson Subject: Re: Fred Noonan >Yep, but if there were any supportable references on that web page, I >missed 'em. Is it any wonder that people drop off this forum, with all the mean- spirited sniping that goes on? This was an informational email sent to me from a serious Noonan researcher. She very clearly stated that this was information she had gathered, that it would be used in her book and would be sourced there. So why not wait until you see the completed work before you start criticizing. Sorry now that I even shared it. Ron Dawson 2126 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:14:22 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Fred Noonan From Ron Dawson >Is it any wonder that people drop off this forum, with all the >mean- spirited sniping that goes on? This was an informational >email sent to me from a serious Noonan researcher. She very >clearly stated that this was information she had gathered, that it >would be used in her book and would be sourced there. So why not >wait until you see the completed work before you start >criticizing. Sorry now that I even shared it. I don't think it's fair to characterize a simple remark about a complete lack of citations on a web page as "mean-spirited sniping." Nobody has ever been able to provide support for the old rumours that Pan Am fired Fred, much less because alcohol consumption was interfering with his work. I have no doubt that any primary source documentation (for example a personnel file, a contemporary letter written by a Pan Am executive or Noonan co-worker/relative) either supporting or refuting the rumours would be more than welcome on this forum. LTM, who wasn't prone to knee jerking William Webster-Garman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:27:51 From: Alfred Hendrickson Subject: Re: Fred Noonan For Ron Dawson: Please accept my apology, Ron. My missive did not come across well, and it was not my wish to cause offense. Next time, I'll think before I type. LTM, who tried to teach me better, Alfred Hendrickson #2583 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:28:06 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Fred Noonan Ron Dawson writes: >Is it any wonder that people drop off this forum, with all the mean- >spirited sniping that goes on? This was an informational email sent >to me from a serious Noonan researcher. She very clearly stated >that this was information she had gathered, that it would be used >in her book and would be sourced there. So why not wait until you >see the completed work before you start criticizing. Sorry now that >I even shared it. I, for one, am very glad that you shared it. I have since had a very pleasant email exchange with Jackie. I'm not sure I agree with all of her conclusions but I now have some idea what sources she's using. I very much appreciate her sharing that information with me. Many authors guard their sources closely until their book is published. That's understandable. My situation is quite unusual in that I'm writing on behalf of an organization and we never keep the results of our research secret unless disclosure might endanger important artifacts. All of the sources I used in writing Finding Amelia have been publicly available for years. The trouble with holding research close is that the writing can take many years and not every researcher/writer is able to find a publisher. Jackie's book, by her own admission, is still a long way off. Whether she is able to get it published when the time comes remains to be seen. If not, she'll have to decide whether to make her research public or continue to sit on it. As for the forum's ambiance: It's a tough neighborhood and I'm probably as much to blame as anyone for making it that way, but I don't read William's comment as mean- spirited. He was just applying the standards that we use for accepting information as credible. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:49:53 From: Rick Jones Subject: Gardner Loran Site History A synoptic history of the survey, construction and manning of the Loran site on Gardner is contained in "Coast Guard At War IV: Loran, Vol 2". In trying to find a better landing area for their supplies and equipment, they went to the lee of the island in the far NW corner. But finding the 4.5 mile haul to the South end was too time consuming, they improvised a landing scheme closer to their site. Perhaps being preoccupied with the task at hand they may not have been curious about aircraft parts, but it does seem they covered a good bit if the island. I've never seen anything mentioned of contact between the colonists and the Coast Guard members, but cannot imaging that they would not have moved about the island somewhat; and why no mention of being curious about finding anything? Did TIGHAR find any traces, (concrete cistern, concrete footings, etc) of the old Loran site? http://www.uscg.mil/history/STATIONS/loran_volume_2.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:41:17 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Loran station For Rick Jones Thanks for the note on the Loran site. We've gone through the station logs, and have copies of photos taken by the station commander. There was quite a bit of interaction between the "Coasties" and the colonists -- roughly weekly visits one way or the other. Some of the Coast Guard veterans we've talked with (some of whom are on the Forum) have boxes that they bought from the colonists ("bought" meaning exchange for Cokes and such, I think), inlaid with what is very likely aircraft aluminum. As for covering the reef, they doubtless spent time on the reef flat in the lee of the village, and I'd be surprised if some of them didn't stroll up to take a look at the Norwich City, but there wasn't much to attract anyone north of the shipwreck, where Emily Sikuli reported aircraft wreckage. We don't have any accounts of Coast Guard personnel going up there. It seems like Floyd Kilts might have, since he posited a landing on the reef flat, but we don't have any evidence that he actually went there. Most of the serious reef crossing was, as you say, down near the station itself. The station today is a sort of scarified landscape, heavily overgrown in Scaevola frutescens, which likes disturbed ground and salty air. There are remnants of the station's Quonsets -- pilings, metal, etc. -- and scattered artifacts; a lot more stuff from the station was salvaged by the colonists and is now up in the village. No plane parts, but we haven't really done a detailed survey and probably won't; it's certainly a low probability area for finding anything associated with Earhart. LTM Tom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:51:26 From: Mike Zuschlag Subject: Re: Fred Noonan Like Tom King, I also don't take Alan's comment to be a put down on books in general. However, I believe primary sources, such as whatever is in Gallagher's hypothetical camera, are the only thing that truly qualifies as historical evidence. A book may contain information about the evidence, but being necessarily reduced and interpreted, it is not evidence itself. Now, no one has the resources to go to primary sources to learn everything one wants to know. For example, not all of us have time to comb through all the post-lost radio logs ourselves (although it's nice to know we could thanks to the DVD provided). It's very helpful for someone else to do it for us and put the results in a book. So books have a definite value. There's also different kinds of books. I would trust a book more if it cites primary historical sources than if it provides unsubstantiated statements, or statements substantiated only by references to other books (which themselves may not substantiate the statements). That appears to be the difference between the book by Ferrari, and those by King and Gillespie. --Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:36:59 From: Ron Dawson Subject: Re: Fred Noonan >From Alfred Hendrickson, for Ron Dawson: > >Please accept my apology, Ron. My missive did not come across well, and it >was not my wish to cause offense. Next time, I'll think before I type. It is I who should apologize, A.H. I had a hard day at work and my fuse was short. My dear old mum, long since departed, always said "If you want to write an angry letter, put it aside for 24 hours and then see if you still feel the same way." My mistake. My personal feeling is that we should take most of Jackie's info at face value. In the area of genealogy, she is quite accomplished. Having spent years on the Noonan Project, I have come to know what an enigmatic individual he was and how difficult it is to track his history. Perhaps I should pay attention to my own website where I can be quoted thusly in answer to a question about Fred's proclivities: "Hi. The problem with documentaries (even on PBS), is that they are long on popular conceptions and short on empirical evidence. You will often see the terms "was known to have", "it was commonly accepted that". Serious researchers want to know who, what, when, and where." Regards, Ron Dawson 2126 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:41:04 From: Rick Jones Subject: Re: Fred Noonan Your site is very interesting, Ron; and thanks for posting J Ferrari's information. Question: Do you think Dr. Hoodless in examining the Gardner Is. "skull" would have noticed (commented on) the protrusion over the right eye had the skull been that of FN? I notice that in pictures it is most prominent, to the extent that it was also noted in his "physical description". Rick J ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:10:24 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Loran station Rick Jones wrote: >A synoptic history of the survey, construction and manning of the Loran site >on Gardner is contained in "Coast Guard At War IV: Loran, Vol 2". We're familiar with that description. >In trying to find a better landing area for their supplies and >equipment, they went to the lee of the island in the far NW corner. But >finding the 4.5 mile haul to the South end was too time consuming, they >improvised a landing scheme closer to their site. The NW corner is not the leeward side of the island and it's inconceivable that anyone would try to come ashore there. They probably made their initial landing at the traditional landing area on the SW side where the reef is narrowest. They actually bulldozed a road, of sorts, from there down the southern shore. It's not really 4.5 miles though. 3.5 maybe. >Perhaps being preoccupied with the task at hand they may not >have been curious about aircraft parts, but it does seem they >covered a good bit if the island. If there were still airplane parts on the reef or beach in 1944 they were most likely on Nutiran near the main lagoon passage. >I've never seen anything mentioned of contact between the >colonists and the Coast Guard members, but cannot imaging that they >would not have moved about the island somewhat; and why no mention of being >curious about finding anything? There was fairly regular but very controlled interaction between the Coasties and the colonists. The commanding officer, Ensign Sopko, was very concerned about "fraternization" between his men and the local women, so visits to the village were organized and supervised events. The Coasties were not free to roam the island but many did make excursions some distance from the station. Our discovery of the castaway campsite at the "Seven Site," in fact, began with a Coast Guard veteran's story about seeing unusual objects back in the bush. >Did TIGHAR find any traces, (concrete >cistern, concrete footings, etc) of the old Loran site? Yes. There's still lots of stuff there. Ric Now in bookstores "Finding Amelia - The True Story of the Earhart Disappearance" by Ric Gillespie. Published by the Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD Learn more at www.findingamelia.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:10:26 From: Ron Dawson Subject: Re: Fred Noonan >Do you think Dr. Hoodless in examining the Gardner >Is. "skull" would have noticed (commented on) the protrusion over the >right eye had the skull been that of FN? Rick: One could surmise that he might/should have. Interesting question. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 08:20:33 From: Ron Bright Subject: USS Colorado/Search of the Phoenix Look no further. The Electra is 190 miles northeast of Howland at N 3 degrees 40 minutes, West 175 degrees 25 minutes, under a lot of water. So tells us Michael Dickinson, a former USS Colorado crewman who was aboard during the search for Amelia Earhart in July 1937. He was 19 at the time. Dickinson didn't come up with this precise location until 1991. He was perhaps inspired by a letter written to him in 1990 by Ric Gillespie, who was tracking down former USS Colorado crewman for any information they might have about the search. Dickinson responded he knew little about the search other than what Capt Friedell reported. Nevertheless, his interest in the mystery had actually begun soon after his discharge,. and he spent fifty years or so trying to solve the mystery using his own calculations of her flight from Lae to Howland. Corresponding with various researchers, reading all the books he could on the subject, applying his own "weather analysis", the solution finally came to him like "a bolt of lightening" in 1991 as he was looking at Paul Rafford's map in Vincent Loomis's book "Amelia Earhart: The Final Story". Based on all the weather, course corrections, and many other variables he states she spashed down at exactly 0900, at N 3* 40' W 175* 25 '. And to explain post loss messages received for the next 11 days he postulated that the Electra's battery was enclosed in a watertight compartment and capable of those transmissions as she drifted towards the Gilberts. He doesn't discount a Japanese pickup. Dickinson's papers were loaned to me by a local resident and friend of Dickinson, now deceased, for a review. Just as Ric Gillespie was, I was initially interested as Dickinson's papers might have shed additional light on the thoroughness of the USS Colorado search in the Phoenix Islands. . I was disappointed. Instead, he simply reiterated the Colorado report that no signs of aircraft crash sites or castaways had been seen during the flyover by the three Colorado planes. He reported no interviews of pilots/ observers nor did he write any other information that might have come from documentary sources, such as logs, or crewmembers aboard the Colorado. He does report that on the afternoon of 9 July Lt John Lambrecht landed at Hull's lagoon, but makes no mention of Lambrecht's report of seeing "signs of recent habitation" on Gardner. Dickinson recalled that there was a Marine Detachment ready to land on an atoll if necessary, suggesting that the Colorado was not limited to only a visual air search. As an enlisted signalman, it was unlikely that he had any access to command briefings, but he did signal the Itasca and others about the search progress. There is nothing in his papers to contradict Ric Gillespie's opinion that the search was flawed which suggests that the airmen could have missed Earhart and Noonan at Gardner. In sum his reconstruction of the flight was based on various information in several books but not cited or clearly referenced. He also speculated [ no cites] that Harry Balfour gave Noonan a different DR to Howland the morning she departed that included a flyover Nauru enroute to obtain a last fix. And when Noonan departed the Nauru area, AE made a collossal mistake by flying 80 degrees, parallel to her original course, rather than a bearing of 85 degrees which would have taken her to Howland. Hence drawing a line of 80 degrees, it intersects with a sunline about 190 miles north east of Howland. Unless forum members are interested in more of his "analysis" I shall skip it here. Dickinson died c. 1997 at age 81. Many researchers may have already received his papers, which have been donated to a museum. Personally, I don't think he added anything significant to the research. LTM, Ron Bright ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:56:51 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: USS Colorado/Search of the Phoenix Ron, I may be harder on "no cite support" than anyone but the truth is that not everything has support. There is a lot of information that just can't be backed up by any kind of real evidence. Nothing or at least very little can be totally disregarded just because of this. It is hard to use it for anything but certainly it can't be dismissed out of hand. Perhaps put on a back burner, maybe. It is easy, after all this time, to dismiss the recollections of a 19 year old kid but we shouldn't. I don't mean his account bears any weight but it IS more information to add to the files. It was a good posting, Ron. We shouldn't pass on ANY information no matter how unlikely its value is. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:02:57 From: Ron Bright Subject: Re: USS Colorado/Search of the Phoenix Alan, You bring up an excellent point. Sometimes there simply is no contempaneous written documents, notes, memoranda to back up a claim, only a witness recollections perhaps weeks or even years later. That fact should be considered, as you know, to the weight of the information, but certainly should be evaluated for often that is all we have. Dickinson's flight path, someone reminded me, and the splash down point, was the same as a researcher Lutrell. I am not aware of his writings. Dickinson's contribution of his recollections of the Colorado search reinforced at least from his view that they gave it their best shot. LTM, Ron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:51:48 From: George Werth Subject: Gerald Gallagher For Gerald's Bio go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Gallagher Gerald only lived to be 29 years old. George R Werth TIGHAR Member #2630 LTM who is still searching for substantive information about the 'Kanawa Tree.' ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:40:38 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Gerald Gallagher For George Werth Kanawa is Cordia subchordata, if that's any help. I think most of what's on Wikipedia about Gerald is based on our stuff. LTM (with whom I hope the above strikes a responsive cordia) *************************** Yes, a TIGHAR member wrote it. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:30:26 From: Thomas Corbitt Subject: Robert Ballard interview Probably best known for "finding the titanic", I thought the interview had an interesting little bit near the end: "MIHELICH: Are there any ships out there that you still want to find? BALLARD: Shackleton's Endurance would be cool. And Amelia Earhart's plane." Maybe someone should pitch a joint TIGHAR and Okeanos Explorer mission.... http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/10/18/ocean.explorer/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:50:19 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Ballard interview Thomas Corbitt writes: >Maybe someone should pitch a joint TIGHAR and Okeanos Explorer >mission.... No thanks. Ballard blew his credibility with me when he claimed (or allowed Nat'l Geo to claim) that he had "found PT 109" when all he had found was a torpedo launching tube of the same type that was used on Kennedy's boat (and every other PT that served in the region). By that standard, we found Amelia long ago. LTM, Ric Now in bookstores "Finding Amelia - The True Story of the Earhart Disappearance" by Ric Gillespie. Published by the Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD Learn more at www.findingamelia.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:18:45 From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Ballard interview Thomas Corbitt writes: >Maybe someone should pitch a joint TIGHAR and Okeanos Explorer >mission Besides, Ballard wants to look in the wrong place. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 22:00:29 From: Monty Fowler Subject: Banking on DNA? I know there has been a great deal of discussion on the forum from time to time about how we could prove any bits of bone that may be found on Niku had come from Amelia, and that TIGHAR knows the whereabouts of at least one of her female relatives. I also vaguely recall that this relative was probably willing to provide a sample for comparative DNA testing. So two questions: 1) Is there any cost-effective way that TIGHAR or another third party could obtain a sample of this relative's mitochondrial DNA now (she's rather elderly) to hold against the day when it might be needed? 2) What are the odds we could find enough material to perform nuclear DNA testing (which requires a sample from a male descendant), given the harsh environment on Niku and the time that has elapsed? I bring up the nuclear DNA testing option because of this: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/19/earthquake.mcgoon.ap/index.html , the story of how famed WW II and Indochina aviator James "Earthquake McGoon" McGovern's remains were positively identified earlier this year. If they can pull DNA out of 53-year-old bones that have been in a jungle environment in Laos, that may open up another possibility if TIGHAR gets really lucky next summer. LTM, who stays away from nuclear stuff, Monty Fowler, #2189 CE ********************************* 1) Obtaining a swab for DNA is a rather personal experience. Granted, it's a cheek swab, but it's not something you can do through email. OTOH, the relative in question has a daughter, whose mDNA will be identical with her mother's and with her grandmother's -- Earhart's sister. 2) Approximately zero. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:40:01 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Banking on DNA? Re. Pat's response to Monty Pat -- I'll buy your answer to Monty's #1 question, but being ever skeptical of absolute answers I'll question your #2. Why do you think there's no chance of getting nuclear DNA from bones we might recover from Niku -- or Fiji should we find those that wound up there? Or am I misunderstanding you? **************************** I think you misunderstood me, or I misunderstood the question. Monty's question: >2) What are the odds we could find enough material to perform nuclear >DNA testing (which requires a sample from a male descendant), given >the harsh environment on Niku and the time that has elapsed? caused me to focus on "male descendant" -- of which, of course, there are none. *If* bones are found, whether in Fiji or on Niku, they will probably be in pretty poor condition; but it will certainly be worth a try to extract mDNA. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:10:00 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Banking on DNA? <> Ah. Of course, that's true. But there are male relatives. I'm not sufficiently conversant with nuclear DNA to know whether that helps. Kar Burns can doubtless comment if she's lurking. LTM (and all her descendants) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 14:09:23 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Banking on DNA? You would be looking for someone in the same male to male line, so some male named Earhart. AE didn't have a brother, did she? Then her father's brother's male descendants, etc. Dan Postellon ****************************************** No brothers. Don't know about paternal uncles. Does anyone? Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 14:28:03 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Banking on DNA? Ok, that cuts out Jim Morrissey, the male relative I was thinking of (sister's grandson). Young Amy Earhart in Denver is, as I recall, descended from Amelia's father's brother or some such relative, so that might be a possibility. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 14:58:39 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Banking on DNA? AE's grandfather was David Earhart, born in Indiana, Indiana County, Pennsylvania. He left several male descendants in Kansas, including Martin Luther Earhart. There should be someone left in the male line from him. The family tree is readily available on ancestry.com. David's wife was a Patton, which is an old Pennsylvania surname. David's father was also a David, and his father was Anthony Earhart. There must be someone. Dan Postellon TIGHAR 2263 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 15:17:13 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Banking on DNA Actually, this would only work if Amelia had an XY karyotype, meaning she would have to be a male or have Androgen Insensitivity or some other rare disorder. I seem to remember that we showed that this was not possible a few years ago. Mitochondrial DNA would be useful, as it is passed almost unchanged from female to female. Autosomal, or DNA not associated with sex chromosomes gets more mixed and diluted with each succeeding generation, so that you may have very little DNA in common with your 4th great grandfather. There are people out there related to AE in either the male or female line, but I doubt that you could reconstruct her DNA, other than the mitochondrial DNA. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:07:16 From: George Werth Subject: Re: Cordia subcordata For Tom King After I Googled >"is cordia subcordata a hard or soft wood?"< this Old Geezer came up with http://waynesword.palomar.edu/plsept99.htm< which is an erudite exposition about Hardwoods. When you scroll down between 1/3 and 1/2 of the page you will come to paragraphs that talk about "Ziricote (Cordia subestena)" and "kou" (Cordia subcordata) as the Polynesian species is called. George R. Werth TIGHAR Member #2630 LTM who commented, "But Georgie, they didn't call it "Kanawa Wood"! (Ya can't please everybody) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:07:43 From: Alfred Hendrickson Subject: Other things I was on a spontaneous road trip last week and I saw two things that might be of interest to Forumites: 1) One of the propellers from "Lady Be Good", a B-24 Liberator that went down in the Libyan Desert in 1943. Said prop is on display in front of the library in Lake Linden, Michigan, of all places. I don't totally get the connection between the Lady and Lake Linden, but the prop is worth seeing. 2) A small museum in Superior, Wisconsin, devoted primarily to the life and aviation career of Richard Bong, a WWII pilot who shot down 40 Japanese aircraft. A rebuilt P-38 was on display at the museum. I have a few pictures, yours for the asking, off the Forum. LTM, Alfred Hendrickson #2583 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:00:36 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Cordia subcordata For George Werth Either Ric or Pat pointed out to me long ago that "kanawa wood" is redundant; they referred to both the tree and what's cut from it as "kanawa." Polynesians doubtless use "kou" the same way. Apropos of nothing, in Chuukese (a Micronesian language, spoken of course in Chuuk, formerly Truk), "kou" means "cow," and is clearly derived from the English. My wife's adopted Chuukese father used to point to his heavily calloused feet and say "Feet like kou!" In case you feel like doing some more botanizing, check out Pisonia, the genus of which P. grandis, the giant softwood indigenous tree called "buka" in I Kiribati. It's very widespread, but in most places is a mere shrub. LTM (whose feet are dainty and delicate) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:42:01 From: Terry Simpson Subject: Re: other things The connection with Lady Be Good and Lake Linden,Mi is one of the crew members was from there.His name was Robert E. LaMotte.....Terry Simpson #2396 Port Huron,Mi LTM ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 18:53:44 From: Rick Boardman Subject: Re: LBG Flypast magazine just recently did a really good article about Bong. I gather the "Lady Be Good" after many years of abuse, is now in a "secure " compound, in Libya, in the hope that it'll last a little longer, without the souvenir hunters taking any more. Rick Boardman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 18:54:05 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: LBG The second one is quite famous, but had to be re-named, because people kept stealing the signs directing you to the "Bong Museum". I'm NOT making this up, you can read about it at www.roadsideamerica.com Dan Postellon TIGHAR#2263 LTM(love those muffler men) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 18:54:48 From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Cordia subcordata I think Pisonia is technically a hardwood, even though the wood is soft. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:12:09 From: Hue Miller Subject: Book I just received the signed book and i have to say, i am EXTREMELY pleased with it. What a fine, excellent effort, and i feel i got good value for money, which always makes me happy. Just skimming a few pages i have already learned some things that have filled in blanks in my understanding of the story. Perhaps this has already been suggested, or even done: TIGHAR could maybe contact radio talk show hosts Jim Bohannon and Art Bell and offer an interview with Ric. I am pretty sure this topic would be of interest to Jim Bohannon's show; and while Art Bell's program tends toward more spacey topics, he often has a shorter, earlier interview or visit of about a half hour or so, near the start of his weekend program, and before the main guest and main theme of the evening. Both these programs have listenership in the millions. -Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:05:52 From: Rick Jones Subject: Questions and Comments After reading Ric's book, and "Shoes", and perusing the TIGHAR web site, I do have a few more questions or observations. (Thanks, Tom King , for recommending "AE's Shoes." It was most helpful in understanding the chronology of the research.) 1. Gallagher's telegram #71 reports a (Benedictine) bottle and a sextant box among things found at the time the "bones" were discovered. It would seem logical (there's Ockham again) that the NZ Pacific Aviation Survey could also have been responsible for these items. Could the box have been part of their equipment that was overlooked (box for a transit, theodolite, maybe); and M H Hay's Journal writes of breaking out a bottle of Brandy for Christmas in 1938. Should we assume Gallagher's association of these items with the bones is correct? 2. In testimony during the Naval Court investigation of the Norwich City, Second Officer Lott said "at 5 past 11 there was a crash and the vessel went up on the reef.", and "she was in ballast, down by the stern, and it was the top of high water." In First Officer J Thomas' "Report on Observations of Characteristics of the Island", he wrote, "the rise and fall of the water appeared to be about 5 feet". Would Robert Brandenburg's tide model be a "fit" for a high tide around 2305 ship's time on 29 Nov 1929? 3. Dick Polley posted on 7-15-98: "Just before I was shipped out the natives built a large meeting hut right in our back yard so-to-speak". What and where was that? 4. Re: the lost antenna: Do we know (or can we guess) how much the canted pitot tube affected the copilot's airspeed indicator? If AE tried to reconcile the difference between IAS instruments and changed power settings, that could, over 20 hours, add up to some extra fuel burned, couldn't it? 5. Another vote for Betty's Notebook. Re: "Get the suitcase in the closet-Calf" as explained by TIGHAR, seems strongly validated by the "prenuptial agreement" in the GPP papers given to Purdue by Putnam's Granddaughter. I'd probably want that burned, too. http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/images/earhart.newdocs/ earhart.prenup.jpeg Rick J ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:09:41 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Questions and Comments Rick Jones asked: >1. Gallagher's telegram #71 reports a (Benedictine) bottle and a >sextant box among things found at the time the "bones" were discovered. It >would seem logical (there's Ockham again) that the NZ Pacific Aviation Survey >could also have been responsible for these items. Could the box have been >part of their equipment that was overlooked (box for a transit, theodolite, >maybe); and M H Hay's Journal writes of breaking out a bottle of Brandy for >Christmas in 1938. Should we assume Gallagher's association of these items >with the bones is correct? The box and Benedictine bottle were presumably found at the "castaway campsite" (my term) along with the bones and shoe parts, corks with brass chains, etc. It's hard to see how the NZ survey party could have left them there without noticing the bones. However, it's possible that the Benedictine bottle and sextant box were left behind by the NZ (or even the USS Bushnell) survey party and later found and collected by the castaway(s). The Kiwis were there in late '38/early '39. The Bushnell was there in November '39. The skull was found circa April '40. Gallagher did his thing in September '40. The fact that there was still a partial skeleton at the site suggests that the individual had been dead a matter of months rather than years. If that assessment is correct, we are confronted with a castaway who is clearly alive but remains undiscovered at a time when there was other human activity on the atoll (including the Gilbertese settlement). >2. In testimony during the Naval Court investigation of the Norwich >City, Second Officer Lott said "at 5 past 11 there was a crash and the vessel >went up on the reef.", and "she was in ballast, down by the stern, and it was >the top of high water." In First Officer J Thomas' "Report on Observations of >Characteristics of the Island", he wrote, "the rise and fall of the water >appeared to be about 5 feet". Would Robert Brandenburg's tide model be >a "fit" for a high tide around 2305 ship's time on 29 Nov 1929? Dunno. Haven't run the numbers. Bob? Can we check that? >3. Dick Polley posted on 7-15-98: "Just before I was shipped out the >natives built a large meeting hut right in our back yard so-to-speak". What >and where was that? I missed that. A "large meeting hut" would be a maneaba but it would make no sense at all for the villagers to build one anywhere other than in the village unless they were building it for the Coasties to use. >4. Re: the lost antenna: Do we know (or can we guess) how much the >canted pitot tube affected the copilot's airspeed indicator? If AE tried to >reconcile the difference between IAS instruments and changed power >settings, that could, over 20 hours, add up to some extra fuel burned, >couldn't it? There was no canted airspeed indicator. After close examination of the photo, Photek determined that it was an optical illusion. >5. Another vote for Betty's Notebook. Re: "Get the suitcase in the >closet-Calf" as explained by TIGHAR, seems strongly validated by >the "prenuptial agreement" in the GPP papers given to Purdue by >Putnam's Granddaughter. I'd probably want that burned, too. >http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/images/earhart.newdocs/earhart.prenup.jpeg We, of course, have no way of knowing what was in the cache of stuff AE had "taken possession of" in 1935 and wanted her mother to destroy if she didn't successfully complete the flight from Hawaii. We do know that the real Amelia Earhart was quite different from the public persona she and Putnam created (and which lives on today). Her attitudes toward sex, politics and religion were controversial, to say the least. Ric Now in bookstores "Finding Amelia - The True Story of the Earhart Disappearance" by Ric Gillespie. Published by the Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD Learn more at www.findingamelia.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:09:16 From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: Questions and comments >From Ric > >3. Dick Polley posted on 7-15-98: "Just before I was shipped out the >natives built a large meeting hut right in our back yard so-to-speak". What >and where was that? > >I missed that. A "large meeting hut" would be a maneaba but it >would make no sense at all for the villagers to build one anywhere >other than in the village unless they were building it for the >Coasties to use. And yet, such a structure (for whatever purpose) might be the best explanation for all the corrugated iron found at the 7 site. And for the water tank, too. Marty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:09:50 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Questions and comments >3. Dick Polley posted on 7-15-98: "Just before I was shipped out the >natives built a large meeting hut right in our back yard so-to-speak". What >and where was that? Great catch, Rick! Like Ric, I'd forgotten that posting, if I knew about it in the first place. Dick Polley, are you still with us? I'd like to know a lot more about that hut. It's not inconceivable that the Coast Guard's "back yard" was the Seven Site, and the hut could account for all or part of our corrugated iron there. On the other hand, we've seen a photo taken by the station commander of an unidentified maneaba-like structure made of native materials (thatch, etc.), which could be what Dick was talking about. The best information we have from former residents is that they didn't build anything in the area. And there's the continuing confusion over the "house built for Gallagher," reported in the Seven Site vicinity by Laxton in 1949 but not reported by the Coast Guardsmen in '46. All very strange. This also illustrates the need for something we keep talking about but have never managed to get the money or time to develop -- a really complete, comprehensive, relational database of all the varied information we have on Nikumaroro, organized in a geographic information system. Great as it is when new members come up with unexpected data, it's kinda embarrassing to have the data come out of our own forum archives. LTM (who blushes)= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:19:39 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Questions and comments I just recalled another reference to the locals building a house near the Loran Station. In the records of the station, which Chuck Boyle (USCG Atafu) and I went through at the National Archives a few years ago, there are some memos about the construction of a house for the watchman who was hired by the CG to keep an eye on the place after the Americans left. This would presumably have been in the station's "back yard," but it seems unlikely it would have resembled a "meeting house." It's also unlikely to have been at the Seven Site, which is in no way within watching range of the station. LTM (ever watchful) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:20:20 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Questions and comments Marty Moleski wrote >And yet, such a structure (for whatever purpose) might be >the best explanation for all the corrugated iron found at >the 7 site. The Gilbertese colonists building with corrugated iron? I doubt it. As I recall, the evidence seems to indicate that the iron sheeting was scavenged from the late 19th cent. Arundel site (same immediate vicinity as the Norwich City cache, I think?) and somehow floated or dragged some distance to the 7 site before the Coasties era. LTM, who had nerves of steel but didn't thatch with the stuff William Webster-Garman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:44:20 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Questions and comments <> Some major buildings in the village have or had corrugated iron roofs; some also had corrugated asbestos. The stuff at the Seven Site that's associated with the water tank is probably of the same vintage as the village; the stuff on the ridge of the site is non- galvanized iron and appears to be older. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:44:52 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Questions and comments William Webster-Garman writes: >The Gilbertese colonists building with corrugated iron? I doubt it. I'm with you William. That stuff on the ridge at the Seven Site weighed a ton. The corrugation down near the tank is lighter but it was only a small roof, pretty obviously for water collection. The Gilbertese can throw up an open-sided structure made of local materials in next to no time. Putting up something strong enough to carry the weight of the heavy corrugation would be quite a job and it seems like the posts, or at least the holes they were set in, would still be there (the posts supporting the little roof by the tank are still there). As I recall, the evidence seems to indicate that the iron sheeting was scavenged from the late 19th cent. Arundel site (same immediate vicinity as the Norwich City cache, I think?) and somehow floated or dragged some distance to the 7 site before the Coasties era. Where the heavy corrugation at the Seven Site came from and who brought it there, and how, are still very much matters of debate. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:03:13 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Questions and comments Tom King says: >Some major buildings in the village have or had corrugated iron >roofs; some also had corrugated asbestos. As I recall, the buildings we've seen that had, or appear to have had, corrugated roofs are; - the Co-Op store - the Radio Shack - the Cistern - the cook-house attached to the Rest House (asbestos) - the "European House" over on Nutiran (probably originally an Arundel structure). These all seem to be structures that were built under outside (i.e. British) direction. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:46:02 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Questions and comments Ric wrote, >These all seem to be structures that were built under outside >(i.e. British) direction. That was my impression too. LTM, who might remind readers that photos of Gallagher's somewhat posh (by local standards) residence in the village show it with a Gilbertese thatched roof. William Webster-Garman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:07:14 From: Chuck Boyle Subject: Re: Questions and comments Dick Polley passed away 9/99. Dick Evans might be able to help you. He has moved recently. If you do not have his new phone number I can help you/ Lee (Chuck) Boyle ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:51:02 From: Rick Jones Subject: Re: Questions and comments Ric wrote: >The fact that there was still a partial skeleton at the site suggests that the >individual had been dead a matter of months rather than years. If that >assessment is correct, we are confronted with a castaway who is >clearly alive but remains undiscovered at a time when there was other >human activity on the atoll (including the Gilbertese settlement). Then, providing a DNA connection, would you posit that Nei Aana's (Teng Koata's wife) encounter with the "tall fair woman with long dark hair falling to the ground" at the "ghost maneaba" was actually AE, and Nei Aana's spiritual beliefs morphed the experience into the Nei Manganibuka episode? Rick J ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:06:20 From: Tom King Subject: Re: Questions and comments Rick J asks: >Then, providing a DNA connection, would you posit that Nei Aana's >(Teng Koata's wife) encounter with the "tall fair woman with long dark >hair falling to he ground" at the "ghost maneaba" was actually AE, and Nei >Aana's spiritual beliefs morphed the experience into the Nei Manganibuka >episode? That's an intriguing notion that I think Ric likes, and in a novel I'm working on I've played around with having have it happen, but before we go too far out on a buka limb, I think it needs to be recognized that guessing how long the bones had been on the ground based on our reading of Gallagher's judgment about how chewed up they were is just that -- guessing. In Kar Burns' lamb-bone experiment, the coconut crabs made the whole bone mass go away pretty quickly; they did the same with a less formal experiment I ran on the other side of the island. But we've also seen bird and fish skeletons that they've apparently left alone. Why this variability? We don't know, but the fact remains that it occurs. That being the case, we just can't be sure how long it would take for a body to be skeletonized, or for the skeleton itself to disappear. Gallagher, remember, thought that the bones had been there MORE than four years. That was a guess, too, but one that's at least as informed as ours. LTM (who advises her children to bone up on Birgus latro culinary habits) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:06:41 From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Questions and comments Rick Jones asks: >Then, providing a DNA connection, would you posit that Nei Aana's (Teng >Koata's wife) encounter with the "tall fair woman with long dark hair >falling to the ground" at the "ghost maneaba" was actually AE, and Nei >Aana's spiritual beliefs morphed the experience into the Nei Manganibuka >episode? Would I posit it? Sure. Heck ,I'll posit it right now. But we're never gonna know for sure. But ya gotta admit, it's great theater. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:27:51 From: Bob Brandenburg Subject: Re: Questions and comments >>In testimony during the Naval Court investigation of the Norwich City, Second >>Officer Lott said "at 5 past 11 there was a crash and the vessel went up on >>the reef.", and "she was in ballast, down by the stern, and it was the top of >>high water." In First Officer J Thomas' "Report on Observations of >>Characteristics of the Island", he wrote, "the rise and fall of the water >>appeared to be about 5 feet". Would Robert Brandenburg's tide model be a >>"fit" for a high tide around 2305 ship's time on 29 Nov 1929? > >Dunno. Haven't run the numbers. Bob? Can we check that? I checked, and there is no "fit" for high tide at the time the ship went aground. Assuming the ship was keeping -11 zone time, the model shows low water at 2353, which would put the tide close to low water at 2305 since there is a stand of about one hour centered on high and low water in Hull tide predictions. But one shouldn't read too much into the apparent contradiction in Lott's recollection that the ship went aground at "the top of high water". He had no way of knowing the state of the tide at Gardner when the ship went aground. And he couldn't have been using Hull Island tide predictions because the requisite harmonic tide constants for Hull were not available then. On the other hand, the testimony of Daniel Hamer, the captain of the Norwich City, does point to a plausible "fit": "Next day dawned [comment: this was 4 December] , everyone hoping it would be the last day they would have to spend on the island . . .It was useless to make any attempts to leave the island before high water, for which we impatiently waited and about 8 a.m. the boat was hauled out to the edge of the surf." The Hull tide calculation for 4 December shows high water, 3.4 feet, at 0751, which agrees with Hamer's implicit observation that high water was at about 0800 that day. Bob= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:29:39 From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Questions and comments I can't resist calling in on this one... as Ric says it's wonderful theatre but the Pacific islands are replete with myths about light- skinned ghost-gods. Given the conflicting description of "long dark hair" (especially the "dark"), this tale has always struck me as a bit of well-intentioned local boosterism by the Koatas, Gilbertese style. I mean, think about it... shortly after arriving, while they're still having much trouble finding so much as a trickle of potable water, the wife of the highest ranking Gilbertese in the new colony reports having a classic "good luck/fate" vision on the least visited part of the island? Now, I'm willing to speculate that the evidence so far opens up the rather horrifying possibility that AE survived for at least several months on Gardner and even may have still been alive when the first survey parties visited (clueless that she might be there) but the notion she wound up stark raving and disoriented enough to make a Gilbertese woman think she'd truly seen a spirit? Naw, at least, not for anything more than a thrilling campfire story, or a plot device in an historical fiction novel. LTM, who got spooked out on the buka limb. William Webster Garman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 18:07:54 -0500 From: Karen Hoy Subject: Great Book Review Has everyone seen this article? The author says very nice things about "Finding Amelia." http://www.lahontanvalleynews.com/article/20061020/Opinion/110200027 LTM (who told me to always be nice) Karen Hoy