Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:18:16
From:         David Jeane
Subject:      Re: inner tubes

Come on people.....this is 1937. Maybe the "mythical Japanese ship had a "mythical" Zeppelin on board. I don't think there were 20 inner tubes in the whole Pacific Ocean in 1937.

LTM (who is still laughing about bamboo..)
#2498

>  From Dan Postellon
>
>> From Dave Bush
>>
>> Where are you going to get the inflatable pontoons? You have to use
>> the
>> materials that are available to the ship, or that can be taken from
>> the
>> island (ie - raft made from bamboo or trees, etc.).
>
> You can make them from inner tubes, or even use inner tubes.
> Dan Postellon
>
> ********************************
>
> I wonder how many inner tubes it would take to float a 7000 pound
> aircraft...?
>
> Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:19:02
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Lambrecht photo

>  From Alan Caldwell
> Dennis, didn't they use 120 and 620 film back then? I did.
> Alan

Alan,

120 was one of the common formats.  Kodak introduced 620 for their own cameras, particularly the various Brownies when they became extremely popular, so as to force their customers to use their own brand of film.

The ONLY difference is the spool that holds the film.

These days it is very difficult to get 620 film, so those of us who still use box brownies occasionally buy 120 and wind it onto the Kodak  620 spools.  We have to remember to take it OFF the spool if we are not developing it ourselves as they almost never return the spools, and 620 spools are like teeth on chooks.

Th' WOMBAT

--
We don't use Windows - so You get fewer Viruses.
Mepis Linux, Mozilla and OpenOffice.org.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:20:14
From:         Mark Guimond
Subject:      Irrelevant babble

Hello, people..........

Could we have a bit of order in the court, please?

The occasional whimsical remarks and off-topic meanderings can be all quite amusing, but when the majority of the postings are irrelevant babble and my Inbox collects 30-40 of them daily, it does become annoying, and this forum starts to lose it's credibility. It reminds me of dark-ages theologians who spent their time discussing how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Before anybody gets their wind up, I myself confess to being guilty a couple of times.

So let me try to put a few of these latest subjects to bed for once and for all:

1) Dennis, Allan - Lambrecht had at his disposition any number of camera types and film formats. 120 and 620 roll film (2-1/4 in. wide) was available from Kodak as of 1932. So where 2-1/2, 2-7/8, 3-1/4, 4-1/4 in. and several other formats. What difference does any of this make?

2) The oil industry standard fuel drum (barrel if you prefer) is 45 imperial gallons, 55 U.S. gallons, and who cares how many liters. But the drums are never filled to the limit as expansion space must be allowed for temperature fluctuations. The only thing that is of interest here is the fact that A.E. & F.N. took off with their tanks filled to the brim, and all calculations and speculations are based on that.

3) Dave, Dan - So you want to (re)float an airplane with inflatable pontoons - in 1937? Not likely! Airbag technology was not in use then, was it? Inner tubes? Gimme a break - you are kidding, right? A palmtree raft? Considering their density, it would take at least five hundred trees to provide enough buoyancy to barely keep an L10 above water. But there is one old and proven method I am personally familiar with and you might want to consider if you ever rip open a float on a LIGHT plane, or have to get the whole plane off a lake bottom. Get a few empty fuel drums, sink and lash them into place, then crank up your compressor and pump air into them. Voila!

4) The much debated Wreck Photo - It is completely bogus of course, and it takes absolutely no fund-wasting forensic photo analysis to clearly and definitively come to that conclusion.

Why? Simple! No aircraft that I know of that was powered by a single-row P&W engine (i.e. R-985 or R-1340) was ever equipped with a  ring-cowl. I have worked on, flown in, photographed, or just 'beenaround' Beavers, Otters, Norsemans, Twin-Beeches (D-18/AT-11/C-45), Electras, Mallards, Gooses, and maybe a couple more. All have the same  type of three-section cowlings as you can clearly see on the ground in front of NR-16020 following the takeoff ground-loop that ended the first flight attempt.  You can see for yourselves if you Google up photos of the aircraft just mentioned. The separate ring-cowl was used on many British, European and Japanese aircraft of the period because it served double-duty as the exhaust collector ring, since the exhaust ports on the engines faced forward for better cooling. These rings were made of steel and were mounted directly to the engine, not to the airframe. P&W had the cooling problem under control and the exhaust ports faced aft.

Your witness...

And a good day to all
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:20:38
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: Lifting ring

Also, that ring would break off and with it perhaps part of the airplane. Remember what happened to that German WW II Focke Wulf FW-200 that was raised from that Norwegian fjord ? It broke in two. If the Electra is ever raised (which I doubt) it will have to be done by people who know something about airplanes and let the water slowly escape when it surfaces.

LTM (who always warns not to break anything)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:21:14
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: inner tubes

> I wonder  how many inner tubes it would take to float a 7000 pound
> aircraft...?
>
> Pat

I wonder how many inner tubes a boat normally carries since very few of them have wheels.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:21:57
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Aircraft salvage

OK guys, if anyone ever finds the Electra, here is how to raise it. How to do it is supposedly known to anyone who  learned flying floatplanes for it's part of the ground school part of the training. First it takes a crane on a ship or a pontoon. Next, if it is a single engine airplane a cable has to be fastened BEHIND the propeller (if it was strong enough to pull the plane through the air at full power, it will be strong enough to pull the airplane out of the water). Never fix any cables around tails or wings or the fuselage for this will surely break the plane. When the airplane surfaces, take a lot of time letting the water drip out of it. Don't hurry. When all water is drained, lift the plane carefully with the crane and depose it carefully on the deck of the pontoon (with the help of many dedicated men who know how valuable the airplane is...). That is what they teach floatplane pilots. It's in the manuals. I can find no manual covering how to salvage a twin engine airplane. I think it would be safe to use to cables : one attached behind each propeller.

LTM (who loves flying floatplanes)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:22:19
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Inner tubes

how many inner tubes - depends on the size of the inner tube. But why would a ship have inner tubes sitting around for such a use?

LTM,
Dave Bush
Houston, Texas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:22:53
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Taroa

Of course, the real question is why the Japanese would do this at all. They had an Electra.  If they were interested in a particular technology, as the engines or direction finder, it would be a lot easier to remove it, than to risk losing it by shifting an entire airplane.  If they just wanted to hide the plane, the easiest thing to do would be to put a cable around it and drag it out to sea with a tug, then let it sink.

Dan Postellon TIGHAR#2263
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:24:36
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Lambrecht photo

Alan Caldwell said:  "Dennis, didn't they use 120 and 620 film back then? I did."

You're probably right.  I used 110 (incorrectly?) kind as a generic for the hand-held personal cameras of that era.  Where/when did 110 come in, I wonder?

Ross Devitt said:  "[I] . . . did some experiments and found that it is not at all difficult to exclude items the size of the main wing and the tail assembly over quite a reasonable angle.  If we really need to know, I can take the thing down to the airport and try from the cockpit of a Tiger Moth or something I suppose, but I'm pretty certain from the things I tried here."

Ross that's a great suggestion.  If nothing else it would preempt future questions/queries along these same lines.  My point was that the proportions of the print didn't seem to match any existing (in my limited knowledge) format of that era.  Therefore, it appears the photo is cropped, which could explain the poor quality of the print if the processor screwed up.  It is probably irrelevant whether the print came from a hand-held etc., the existence of a contemporaneous photo of Niku trumps all of that.

LTM, who occasionally has too much time on her hands
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:25:38
From:         Angus Murray
Subject:      Re: Reed's offer

> From Reed Riddle
>
> Hi Angus,
>
> I can understand why you're reluctant...I'm sure we have all dreamed,
> just a little, what would happen if we figured out the key to the
> mystery.  If you really have, everyone will be excited, and maybe a
> little jealous.  :)

Read between the lines (a freudian slip - I nearly accidentally wrote lies!) of Alan's posts and you'll see that he's probably consumed with jealousy. He's also upset because high and mighty principle (we'll never pay for anything come hell or high water - even if it is well worth it or it costs us a lot more in the end) has meant that he can't now get his hands on the information. He's painted himself into a corner and is probably  thinking that he could well be dead before its in the public domain. He may well be right.

The idea that I should not benefit as some matter of principle is frankly ludicrous. Archaeologists and scientists are both paid for their work as I think you'll agree. Free dissemination of information is fine if you're getting paid for producing it.
 
To pretend that companies who spend huge amounts of time and effort developing drugs should do it for nothing is simply absurd. Sure they do it speculatively but that is their prerogative. It does not mean they should not get paid because of some crazy idea that "profiting from people's misery" is evil. And those people who benefit from the drugs are usually only too happy (if they have any sense) to pay if the drug delivers the cure.

Tighar's sanctimonious attitude is that it has a role somewhat akin to a charity and works, presumably, for the advancement of knowledge. Well frankly its not a charity and the disappearance of Amelia Earhart is, in practice - for the majority of people - a matter for entertainment rather than serious scholarship. We are not talking about classical archaeology here - understanding the roots of civilisation. We are talking about a pretty recent air accident of an aircraft of which at least one still survives in far better condition than Earhart's could ever do. It is an inescapable fact, like it or not, that the whole business is more akin to a treasure hunt than a serious contribution to the humanities. Is research on TWA 800 archaeology because it happened a few years ago? There is a lot of self righteous twaddle talked about ethics regarding Earhart. The truth is that the Earhart mystery is a cottage industry that employs many people, including Ric. He doesn't do it for nothing. I'd have rather more time for his professed point of view if he did.

When we first spoke, the idea of Tighar raising some cash from the information was not in principle anathema to Ric at all. The problem he had was that such an arrangement was speculative and therefore might infringe Tighar's non-profit status. He even suggested that a way round it might be to pay for research. But the decision was, as I understand it, EPAC's - not Ric's alone.

Alan has recently admitted, he doesn't believe I'm dishonest but misguided or deluded. How can he possibly know that without knowing the evidence? It is simply idle speculation of the sort that usually gets such short shrift from both him and Ric. He knows absolutely nothing about my honesty or what evidence I have. However, if I am misguided or deluded, what possible point is there in continuing to post on the subject? Its merely a waste of everyone's time. ( I knew that Alan's recent claim that this was his last post was simply untrue. Now you know why I never trust lawyers, particularly this one.)

Of course the truth is that both Alan and Ric, even without seeing anything, are pretty convinced that I do have something.

Everyone will discover the truth in the end (even Alan if he lasts long enough) so I don't feel any obligation to say any more about it at the moment. People can believe what they like - it makes no difference to me because I know I'll eventually be proved right. Needless to say I have other irons in the fire.

Regards Angus
************************************************************************
From Ric

We're only posting Angus' bitter diatribe as an opportunity to briefly explain the system and rationale under which TIGHAR and other nonprofit organizations are organized in the United States. The system is based upon the assumption that there are fields of endeavor which benefit society but are not necessarily viable commercial businesses. Churches, universities, disaster relief organizations, art museums, theater groups, dance groups, orchestras, and all sorts of research organizations - medical, environmental, historical, etc. - are given tax-exempt status on the condition that they do not distribute "profits".  A "nonprofit" organization is free to make all the profit it can but it must plow that money back into the organization.  A "nonprofit" organization does not have "investors" or "shareholders" and it cannot sell "stock" or pay "dividends".  In the U.S., individuals and corporations who contribute money to a recognized nonprofit get to deduct that amount, or a portion of that amount, from the taxes they pay.  If a nonprofit organization can show that it derives its support from a broad base of contributors it is designated a Public Charity. Contrary to Angus' impression, TIGHAR is recognized by U.S. Internal Revenue Service as a Public Charity.  What he perceives as sanctimoniousness is nothing more than our adherence to the spirit and letter of the law.

I don't know if the United Kingdom has a system of support for arts and sciences that in any way resembles the American system but it's quite apparent that Angus does not accept the investigation of a 67 year-old aviation mystery as anything but a commercial treasure hunt.  In that respect he is totally in tune with the Crashed and Sank deep sea searchers.  They're in it for the money.  Maybe he should talk to them.

LTM
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:27:33
From:         Carl Peltzer
Subject:      Re: Inner tubes

1. good point  they'll probably have some timbers and stuff to  fix any holes that might occur but not tubes  especially back  then
2.  If you were to find that target after this long  in the  South Pacific you had better think very carefully about making a  mat to lift the whole machine at one time after all the time salt  water has had to work on it.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:58:22
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: The reef idea

Carl Peltzer says:

> I can't go with a reef landing, that  is get to land in
> shallow water with the gear down and not have it flip  upsidedown,
> Which is the usual situation.

Can you go with the idea of a landing on a hard, almost completely dry surface roughly 100 feet wide and about 2,500 feet long and smooth enough to ride a bicycle on with no difficulty?  That's what the reef is like at Nikumaroro just north of the Norwich City at low tide.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:00:04
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Lambrecht photo

Concerning the Lambrecht photo TIGHER reported that it was found in a New Zealand archive.

What kind of archive - titled?  Do you have any idea how it got to New Zealand from a US Navy aviator?

Have you had the photo analyzed by Photo Tec?

What is the shore line like adjacent to the 7 site i.e. is it a beach suitable for a landing?

Seems odd that a lot of the AE disappearance era photos show this 7 site so predominantly in the photo.  If what I am looking at in the Lambrecht photo is the 7 site it almost looks like its dead center (aimed at by the taker of the  photo) in the picture.  When I enlarge the photo in the area where I think the 7 site is I see a rectangular shape on the beach just off the tree line, any  idea of what it is? I can email the area I am looking at if you like.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:30:00
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Lambrecht photo

Ross Devitt asks:

> I'm curious about the photo as it appears on the website.  Are the
> width and height proportions identical to those of the original photo?
>  or has it been squeezed a little on the page?

It's just the way we got it.

> It looks quite natural resized to the same proportions, and even the N
> marker looks right.

The N (presumably north) marker is another indication that the photo was not taken in any official way.  The N marker points due west.

LTM
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:30:39
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: AE's fuel, weather

Dan Postellon says:

> There are inflatable airbags that you can stuff under an object, then
> inflate to lift it, that can also be used as rollers to move the
> object.  I supect that the difference between high and low tide isn't
> much (someone should know this), so you would need one hell of a big
> airbag to float an Electra.  Anyone have the weight of the Electra and
> the height of the tides?

Heck, if we're going to ignore historical context let's just bring in a heavy-lift helicopter and sling that sucker onto the ship.  That's no more outrageous than equipping a 1937 Japanese survey ship with lift bags.

The Electra's empty weight was about 7,000 pounds.  The tidal variation at Niku is ball park one meter (i.e. assuming absolutely calm conditions - which never happens - the reef is basically dry at low tide and has about a meter of standing water at high tide.  That, of course, varies somewhat throughout the year.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:30:55
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Gallagher and his clues

Alan says:

> There is also a rumor that there was quicksand on Niku. <G>

I don't wanna talk about it.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:31:35
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      Koshu

> From Ric
>
> Ron Bright says:
>> I think it was either Donahue or Carrington that had the fact sheet
>> on the Koshu, a large, over a 120 ft converted German freighter. It
>> had booms forward and on the stern.
>
> Koshu was, supposedly, a "survey ship". Loomis/Ethel say that it was
> "capable of retrieving small floatplanes" but they don't say how they
> know that. U.S. "survey ships" such as USS Bushnell did not have that
> capability.
>
> The Japanese seaplane tender Kamui (usually misspelled Kamoi) that is
> sometimes alleged to have participated in the Japanese search was never
> anywhere near the area."..................

Were those sincere questions as to how the Japanese would have retrieved the Electra from where it came to rest?

The job at hand was to get 2000 lbs alongside the ship. 7000 lb empty weight - 5000lb fuel tank buoyancy = 2000lbs in needed floatation to winch alongside. Since the 281 message said "ABOVE WATER" (this implies "above water line") the airplane was positioned between the land and water environment. With a winch cable long enough I don't see a problem with getting it to the back of the ship where the eye-witnesses saw it in Jaluit.

There is no doubt in my mind that it was the survey ship Koshu. It was placed in Jaluit and surrounding area between July 13th to the 19th. The photo of it being strafed and sunk by Steven's PB4Y-1 has it listed as 3000 ton AGS-2 Koshu, a Japanese freighter. Center smoke stack location , booms fore and aft. In 1938 EdeB was interviewed in Paris by the Navy and he guessed it to be 2000 tons if I recall my research notes correctly. EdeB also claims the crew was IJN in civilian attire. It supplied the Japanese that were there preparing for the future development of Mili. That implies the ship had off and on loading capabilities.

Daryll
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:07:27
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: the Lambrecht photo

Ted Campbell asks:

> Concerning the Lambrecht photo TIGHER reported that it was found in a
> New Zealand archive.
>
> What kind of archive - titled?  Do you have any idea how it got to New
> Zealand from a US Navy aviator?

It was in the New Zealand National Archives in a collection of all kinds of photos of Gardner from all kinds of sources.  No idea how it got there.

> Have you had the photo analyzed by Photo Tec?

That's Photek (and it's TIGHAR not TIGHER) and yes, Photek has looked at it. There's just not enough resolution to see much of anything.

> What is the shore line like adjacent to the 7 site i.e. is it a beach
> suitable for a landing?

No.  Too steeply sloped and soft.

> Seems odd that a lot of the AE disappearance era photos show this 7
> site so predominantly in the photo.

The only AE disappearance era photo of Gardner is the one we're talking about.

There were at least two photos taken in 1938, one similar in orientation to the Lambrecht photo and the other of the western end of the island.  There was a complete mosaic of the island taken by a Grumman Duck from USS Pelican taken in April 1939.

> If what I am looking at in the Lambrecht photo
> is the 7 site it almost looks like its dead center (aimed at by the taker of
> the photo) in the picture. When I enlarge the photo in the area where I think
> the 7 site is I see a rectangular shape on the beach just off the tree line,
> any  idea of what it is? I can email the area I am looking at if you like.

Whatever you're looking at is not real.  No such object is visible in high-resolution imagery of the photo.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:08:06
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      The End of Angus

Angus has responded to my latest reply to him and, not surprisingly, has once again demonstrated that he has no idea what I'm talking about. I'm going to ask Pat not to post it and not to post any further postings on the subject of Angus's research or claims or his offer to Reed or any of it.

We've been trying to end this thread for weeks.

Finito. LTM.  RIP.

Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:36:49
From:         Jerry Kiffer
Subject:      Re: Aircraft salvage

I live in an area where the use of float planes both single and twin are a way of life and means of daily transportation, and as a result our rescue squad has performed many salvage operations. You should never lift behind the propeller, the lifting strap must be placed behind the crankshaft flange to prevent major damage to the hub, it is also a good idea to remove the spinner ($600 - $800) and drop the top and bottom cowl to prevent damage as the strap is pulled tight. Twins are done the same way with the use of a spreader bar. Most times water will drain from the aircraft through the stringer hole however most pilots will pack their survival gear in soft cases that may prevented water from quickly draining, additionally the weather often does not allow for a prolonged salvage operations. In those cases a hole must be punched through the skin near the tail, select a panel that is straight and easy to replace later.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:37:45
From:         Jerry Kiffer
Subject:      Re: Aircraft salvage

There is no need for lifting bags or inner tubes, if you have the ability to dive to the wreck that you have the ability to place lifting straps on the aircraft, if the ship didn't have a crane available for whatever reason?? the ship could use the tides to move the wreck into shallow water. We often use this technique when the wreck is below 300 feet, the aircraft is grappled (causes lots of damage) at low tide and moved at high tide for a raise of ?? feet, this works well in Alaska with 20 foot tides but is a very slow process. The oldest aircraft we have salvaged was one in saltwater for 8 years and had to bring it up in small baskets, this was an aircraft that was built as a seaplane and had  the primer inside and out, however the salt water just dissolved the aluminum.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:59:33
From:         Jerry Kiffer
Subject:      Re: Aircraft salvage

Jerry Kiffer says:

> There is no need for lifting bags or inner tubes, if you have the
> ability to dive to the wreck that you have the ability to place
> lifting straps on the aircraft, if the ship didn't have a crane
> available for whatever reason?? the ship could use the tides to move
> the wreck into shallow water.

How many aircraft have you salvaged from the fringing reefs of coral atolls in the tropical Pacific?
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:59:49
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Aircraft salvage

But what type of crane and lifting equipment did you have? I am sure it was more than a small boom that was designed for a single purpose - lifting floatplanes out of the drink onto the deck.

LTM,
Dave Bush
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:00:23
From:         Jim Preston
Subject:      Re: Lambrecht photo


Wombat, you must be very old. I had a Kodak 620 bellows camera that my parents had for years. I think it was purchased in the 30's. It is still in a box in my garage somewhere but it did work up until the 70's which was the last time I remember using it. They were good Cameras. I am 65 and still have a small 110 camera I carry in the car for emergencies and the film for it is hard to find. I suppose down under you can still get the old stuff.
Jimbo
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:01:20
From:         Alfred Hendrickson
Subject:      Dissolved?

Jerry Kiffer wrote: "The oldest aircraft we have salvaged was one in saltwater for 8 years and had to bring it up in small baskets, this was an aircraft that was built as a seaplane and had the primer inside and out, however the salt water just dissolved the aluminum."

I don't understand. Help me out here. Aluminum sheet immersed in saltwater will, in a fairly short period of time, dissolve?

Ric, I'm sure we've discussed this before. Aren't there other aluminum planes immersed in salt water that have survived a lot longer than 8 years?

Why do some dissolve and others don't?

(BTW, my earlier post about DF antenna as lift ring was a joke. Sorry. Won't happen again.)

LTM,

Alfred Hendrickson, PE
TIGHAR Sponsor Member #2583
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:02:30
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Irrelevant babble

Mark Guimond stated:

... Could we have a bit of order in the court, please?
>
> The occasional whimsical remarks and off-topic meanderings can be all
> quite amusing, but when the majority of the postings are irrelevant
> babble and my Inbox collects 30-40 of them daily, it does become
> annoying, ...

One thing that is taught in business and many other courses these days is the subject of "brainstorming". There is a whole industry out there concerning this. What they suggest is that you write down ANY ideas that come to mind - no matter how wierd! The idea is that this opens the creative thinking side of the mind, which then can lead you into productive areas of research. Many businesses and other enterprises have lost ground or even ended up bankrupt because they failed to consider radical ideas - the books are full of them, so I won't go into a dissertation here - but just think of the personal computer for one. So, the ramblings and musing are sometimes a bit of a distraction, but they can also get the creative juices flowing and may just move the ball forward a few inches or even lead to a "Hail Mary" revelation.

LTM - who loves creativity

Dave Bush,
Houston, Texas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:02:55
From:         Jerry Kiffer
Subject:      Re: aircraft salvage

We have always used what was immediately available. We have used large live working booms on small coastal tugboats, backhoe's designed to load logs on log trucks lifting from barges, medium lift helicopters, and smaller 10,000# capacity working booms on fishing boats.  Aircraft are much easier to lift that boats, the only trick is to lift in such a way that your don't do further damage.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:03:34
From:         Jerry Kiffer
Subject:      Re: Aircraft salvage

None . . However I am not sure what your question is getting at. I have salvaged more than a dozen aircraft from waters up to 300 feet. But most of them were in far shallow water or floating upside down. I can only assume the "fringing reefs of coral atolls" have some other dangers the 40 degree water and Alaskan weather does not. The times we had to salvage in heavy ocean surge we were forced to rig the aircraft and pull it into deeper water before lifting it to the surface.

> From Ric
>
> Jerry Kiffer says:
>
>> There is no need for lifting bags or inner tubes, if you have the
>> ability to dive to the wreck that you have the ability to place
>> lifting straps on the aircraft, if the ship didn't have a crane
>> available for whatever reason?? the ship could use the tides to move
>> the wreck into shallow water.
>
> How many aircraft have you salvaged from the fringing reefs of coral
> atolls in the tropical Pacific?
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:03:54
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: film

Dennis, off the top of my head which is frequently in error, I think 110 came in with the little cheapies you found in grocery stores.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:04:13
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: Aircraft salvage

Salvaging a floatplane always requires special equipment. That means the place where the plane sank must be accessible by salvage ship or pontoon. That will be no problem in harbors or waterways. It will be a problem when the airplane sank in a remote lakes without river access. That is why insurance for seaplanes is higher than for landplanes: the possibility that the seaplane will be a total loss in the water is considered 100 % by insurers, I'm told.

LTM (who loves seaplanes)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:49:01
From:         Jerry Kiffer
Subject:      Re: Aircraft salvage

I have found that also, several of our salvages were in very remote lakes in Alaska and each time the insurance company had written off the aircraft, three of those salvaged wrecks are flying today.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:50:49
From:         Jerry Kiffer
Subject:      Re: Dissolved?

Not only was the skin weakened to the point of being able to push your hand through it the larger structural members were showing heavy corrosion damage, interestingly enough the engine block, was in fair shape considering, maybe more magnesium??
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:51:34
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Dissolved?

> I don't understand. Help me out here. Aluminum sheet immersed in
> saltwater will, in a fairly short period of time, dissolve?
>
> Ric, I'm sure we've discussed this before. Aren't there other aluminum planes > immersed in salt water that have survived a lot longer than 8 years?
>
> Why do some dissolve and others don't?

Temperature (faster corrosion in warm water), salinity (less in the Baltic and who knows where else), presence of other metals connected to the aluminum to cause electrolytic corrosion, these plus metal treatment (painting, anodizing) and possibly the use of alloys or relatively impure metals. There may be other factors as well, but these will do for a start.

Dan Postellon TIGHAR#2263
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:52:00
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Dissolved?

Alfred Hendrickson asks:

> I don't understand. Help me out here. Aluminum sheet immersed in
> saltwater will, in a fairly short period of time, dissolve?
>
> Ric, I'm sure we've discussed this before. Aren't there other aluminum
> planes immersed in salt water that have survived a lot longer than 8
> years?
>
> Why do some dissolve and others don't?

Aluminum sheet does not dissolve in salt water.  The chlorides in the seawater bond with the alloy.  As long as the sheet remains submerged and in a low-oxygen environment the metal remains fairly stable.  Once it dries in the air  the chlorides react with the oxygen and you get a very rapid rate of corrosion.  This is probably what Jerry refers to as "dissolving".

Pure aluminum resists corrosion much better than alloys of aluminum, such as those used in aircraft construction.  One way to increase the corrosion resistance of sheet aluminum is to make a sandwich of alloy with a thin layer of pure aluminum bonded to each external surface. The process is known as "cladding".  Other treatments include "anodizing" or you can apply a painted-on barrier such as zinc-chromate wash.

How well a particular piece of aluminum resists corrosion depends on
many factors including:

- Whether it has been kept dry
- If not, whether it has been subjected to fresh or salt water
- Impurities in the water
- Depth of the water (amount of oxygen present)
- Length of time it has been submerged
- Corrosion inhibiting treatments applied during manufacture or assembly
- Treatment of the metal after removal from the water

To date, the only proven technique for removing the chlorides from aluminum that has been long-submerged in seawater is through a long and expensive electrolytic process.  Some aircraft recovered from underwater environments seem to hold up surprisingly well.  Others do not.  In the past, the historic aviation community has paid little attention to the conservation/stabilization of aluminum on recovered aircraft, choosing instead to simply replace corroded aluminum with new aluminum under the guise of "restoration".  As a result, a great deal of research is still needed.  TIGHAR is in the forefront of that effort with our Devastator Project - but that's a different topic.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:52:27
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Irrelevant babble

Dave Bush says:

> So, the ramblings and musing are sometimes a bit of a distraction, but
> they can also get the creative juices flowing and may just move the
> ball forward a few inches or even lead to a "Hail Mary" revelation.
>

A Hail Mary revelation?  That's a new one on me. Ramblings and musings can, on occasion, result in something useful but usually they only amount to ramblings and musings that just fill up inboxes and waste everyone's time.  Let's try to tighten things up.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:52:46
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Aircraft salvage

Jerry Kiffer says

> I can only assume the "fringing reefs of coral atolls" have some other
> dangers the 40 degree water and Alaskan weather does not.

It's just a totally different environment.  The airplane you're trying to salvage is not sunk.  It is sitting on a reef-flat - a broad, relatively flat expanse of coral that extends seaward from the beach for about 300 meters and ends in a jumble of large coral slabs and then a precipitous drop to depths of several thousand feet .  At low tide it is on a dry, hard surface.  At high tide it's awash in about a meter of water.  It's probably at least 50 feet from the reef edge where there is usually pounding surf.  You can't get anywhere near the reef edge with your ship for fear of going aground on the coral.  If you push or drag the plane over the reef edge it will get pounded to pieces against the reef edge in the surf and/or sink in several thousand feet of water.

Where and how you grab onto the airplane is not even an issue unless you can somehow get it close to the ship.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:49:28
From:         Mark Guimond
Subject:      Re: Irrelevant babble

Dave,

Been there, done that. Have taken the courses, have read the books. But there comes a time when we have to realize that no matter how much we keep on beating on that poor horse's rotten carcass, old Nellybelle just ain't gonna revive, get up and win the derby. It's long past time to let go and bury the beast. Granted, new members may not be aware that something has been thoroughly reviewed and discarded... I am certainly guilty of that too.

One other thing we should all try to keep in mind is that we are dealing with a 1937 event. Discussing technology, materials, procedures, etc. that did not exist back then may have some relevance on occasion, but we should try to keep it all in a proper context and not get carried away.

I have more than had my say now, so I will shut up and wish you all a good evening.

Mark

(LTM, who always said the only really dumb questions are the ones we are afraid to ask.)

> One thing that is taught in business and many other courses these days
> is the subject of "brainstorming".
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:50:52
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Lambrecht photo

>  From Jim Preston
> Wombat, you must be very old.

I'm still waiting for someone to bite over the "elderly members (50+)" joke....  I really thought that would get some comments.  Forum must have got used to me over the years....

I'm 50 years old this year, but feel more like 70 after all that has happened over the last 5 years..

> I had a Kodak 620
> bellows camera that my parents had for years. I think
> it was purchased in the 30's. It is still in a box in
> my garage somewhere but it did work up until the 70's
> which was the last time I remember using it. They were
> good Cameras. I am 65 and still have a small 110
> camera I carry in the car for emergencies and the film
> for it is hard to find.
>
> I suppose down under you can
> still get the old stuff.

It is difficult.  I acquired a couple of colour rolls of 620 format a few years ago when I saw them actually sitting in the sales rack at a pharmacy (probably a drugstore in US English).  The I discovered that nobody other than Kodak had the facilities to develop them.

I then started searching for 620 black and white film, just out of curiosity, because you can develop and print from that with no tools other than two 4" wide glass jars and two pieces of glass.

That was when I found out about 620 being 120 with different spools.

A month or so I was cleaning up and found a roll or two of unused 620 film in a drawer, so I know it is around here somewhere.

The thread yesterday made me immediately dig out the SIX-20 camera.  I can quite easily take it down to the airport and satisfy myself that the thing can be used from inside and miss all the feathers and string.

With the reflector viewfinder on the Box Brownie, what you sees is pretty much what you gets, except that what you sees is upside down, which takes a bit of getting used to these days.

What I did to test it before writing my post yesterday was to position the camera where I could do some measurements.

I used something large and easy to see (open door in darkish room), the old brownie SIX-20, a tape measure and a protractor.

Pointing the camera straight ahead in portrait orientation, the door was fully open 13 feet to the left of the camera and 8 feet to the front.

Tail assembly:

The observer's position is roughly the middle of the plane and the o3u is around 27ft long, so that is close.  I can find nothing on the width of the tailplane, but with a 33ft wingspan, I think a 16ft tailplane is generous, so half that gives me the first edge of the door.  The tailplane on the aircraft was swept back, so one way or another the distances for the field of view angle should be approximately correct.

To get the first edge of the door in the viewfinder I have to turn the camera through 25 degrees.

Mainplanes:

To simulate a biplane with a 33ft wingspan I used a wall and positioned myself 15ft from the end, and 1ft away from it.  Turning the camera through 10 degrees puts the wall completely out of frame.

Focal length of the camera lens is 8ft to infinity.

Experience has shown that at these distances, what you see in the viewfinder is pretty well what is on the film.

Anyway based on those measurements, and without actually finding the film roll and doing the Tiger Moth thing yet, I am convinced that the photo could easily have been taken with this camera and not show the main or tailplane or any other parts of the airplane by simply swinging the camera through 10 degrees or so to take them out of frame.

I do have a photo showing that it is possible for the observer to stand up in the cockpit of the o3u.  Whether this was commonly done in flight at that time is questionable, although at the slower speeds of WW1, it was common.

There must have been other cameras of the era with similar angle of view lenses, and the photo could have been any of them.  I only used the Brownie Box as an example because it was cheap and by then, popular, and the 2 controls could be manipulated in the air with gauntlets on (no fiddly bits).  Also I happened to have one from the 1930's40/s sitting here.

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:51:48
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Inner tubes

One can float a 200 lb person, so about 35. Fewer if they are big. They may not have any aboard, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were old inner tubes lying around the Marshalls.  You might have to steal them from the kids, or from people cutting them up to make diving goggles.

Dan

>> I wonder how many inner tubes it would take to float a 7000 pound
>> aircraft...? Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:52:14
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Aircraft salvage

That reminds me.  People have salvaged large cedar trunks that wash up in the Pacific Northwest.  Are they lifted first, or just dragged out?

   Dan Postellon

> From Jerry Kiffer We have always used what was immediately available.
> We have used large live working booms on small coastal tugboats,
> backhoe's designed to load logs on log trucks lifting from barges,
> medium lift helicopters, and smaller 10,000# capacity working booms on
> fishing boats.  Aircraft are much easier to lift that boats, the only
> trick is to lift in such a way that your don't do further damage.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:52:58
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Irrelevant babble

As to a "Hail Mary" revelation, I refer you to Archimedes, who, upon solving a great problem while sitting in his bathtub, immediately jumped up and ran out into the streets naked yelling "Eureka", thus inventing the important passtime of "streaking" and giving the English language the word "Eureka", which very few alive even understand or know the importance behind (giggle) it. Try a google search on the word sometime - almost 4 million responses, and only one of the four million will tell you what "Eureka" means or how it originated. Sad state of affairs, IMHO.

LTM - who prefers to sit on the sideline when it comes to streaking
David Bush
Houston, Texas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:53:49
From:         Scott White
Subject:      Re: Conjecture, hypothesis, theory

Dave Bush wrote:

"And what is "recent"? Last week, last month, last year. Its all relative without a context."

and Ric wrote:

You seem to be saying that "recent" means something different than "recent".

---

To a paleontologist, I think it means anything that happened since the end of the Pleistocene, ca. 10 K years ago.
:-)
-SW
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:54:26
From:         Scott White
Subject:      Re: AE's fuel and weather

> Dave Bush wrote:
> Where are you going to get the inflatable pontoons? You have to use the
> materials that are available to the ship, or that can be taken from the
> island (ie - raft made from bamboo or trees, etc.). I greatly doubt
> that the ship would have inflatable pontoons - why would they have
> them? And as Ric pointed out in an earlier note - once you get the
> electra out to the ship, how are you going to lift it? Unlike float
> planes it doesn't come with a lifting ring.

Well, I'd sew them together out of walrus skins! I agree that there's probably no reason a ship would be carrying equipment to salvage a wrecked plane from an island. I don't know what scenario the Japanese Recovery proponents envision (or whether there may be several scenarios). I do not believe that the Japanese found the plane or recovered it. But I do believe that a few creative engineers, given enough time and money, could come up with a way to do it.
Best,
-SW

And thanks, Alfred, for the post about the lifting ring. I might have fallen for that one a few months ago.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:55:03
From:         Scott White
Subject:      Re: GP and Flight for Freedom

Eric Beheim wrote (mostly clipped):

>According to AMELIA EARHART'S SHOES, RKO paid him a fee, reportedly
> to forestall a lawsuit.  But perhaps it was actually for his
> cooperation in helping to develop the script for FLIGHT FOR FREEDOM (or
> at least give it his blessing.)

---

I don't think these two ideas are mutually exclusive. Not in Hollywood,
anyway. The fee could easily have been for both purposes. A response to a threat worded sort of like "If you don't make this movie my way, I'll sue your pants off!"
Best,
-SW
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:09:43
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Revelations

Dave Bush and others said:  " . . . a "Hail Mary" revelation . . ."

I'm surprised to learn that the entire forum is Roman Catholic . . . :-)

LTM, who awaits Fr. Moleski's guidance on this
Dennis O.McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:10:25
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Irrelevant babbe

Dave Bush says:

>As to a "Hail Mary" revelation, I refer you to Archimedes, ..

Who, as you point out, said "Eureka", not "Hail Mary", and since he is alleged to have said it in roughly 230 BC, was probably not even Catholic.

I have been with some good Catholics during what they considered to be "Hail Mary" experiences and, believe me, they were not moments of discovery unless you mean the discovery of one's own mortality.

This is, indeed, irrelevant babble just like endless discussions of drum volume and obsolete film types. Come on guys.  Let's have fewer postings and more content.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 13:16:06
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: AE's fuel and weather

Cranes, pontoons, rafts of bamboo trees... And to think that the Coast Guard sank historic Boeing 314 flying boats with gunfire because, having alighted at sea following engine problems, they were considered a danger to shipping...

LTM
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:42:04
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Theoretical problem

Rather than speculate about how the Japanese might have stolen an airplane they didn't need, let's think about a theoretical problem that might actually have something to do with the Earhart mystery.

Here's the situation:

We have, at the Seven Site, hundreds (probably thousands) of little rusted fragments of what was once corrugated iron (not steel, iron). It does not appear to be a collapsed building or roof. The impression we have is that several sheets of this stuff were laid out on the ground.  The question, of course, is by whom and for what purpose. We've had samples of the fragments examined using the Scanning Electron Microscope at the U.S. Naval Academy lab and also samples of metal corrugation collected from elsewhere at the Seven Site (a small collapsed structure near the water tank that was almost certainly used to collect and direct rainwater into the tank), from the Loran station, and from the village.  The corrugated iron that seems to have been laid out on the ground is different from all of the other corrugated metal we've found on the island.

It appears to be consistent with iron corrugation used in the 1890s. We know that John T. Arundel brought 26 sheets of corrugated iron to the island to use in the construction of buildings for his laborers in the 1890s. Tom King's rough guess is that there were about 20 sheets of corrugation laid out on the ground at the Seven Site.

We know that Arundel's planting operations were carried out at the west end of the atoll near what would later be called Nutiran and near where the Norwich City would go aground in 1929.  When we first visited the island in 1989 there were wooden frames of buildings still standing on Nutiran that may have been the remains of Arundel's barracks, but there were no remains of iron corrugation present.

The corrugation at the Seven Site may have been part of an Arundel planting operation on that part of the island but that seems highly unlikely.  The known planting operation was, quite naturally, at the end of the island where it was easiest to get people and supplies ashore.  The Seven Site area is remote and virtually impossible to access from the ocean because it borders the island's turbulent windward shore.

It appears more likely that somebody at some time removed the iron corrugation from the abandoned Arundel buildings at the west end, moved it two miles down to the Seven Site, and laid it out on the ground.

We've been able to think of three possible explanations:

- The colonists salvaged it from the known Arundel operation on Nutiran and brought it to the Seven Site.  But why?  We know that they had other water collection capabilities on-site (the tank).

- Gallagher had the Arundel corrugation salvaged and brought to the Seven Site to cover and protect ground cleared by the laborers that he hoped to later search for more castaway evidence.

- The castaway(s) salvaged it from the known Arundel operation on Nutiran and brought it to the Seven Site as a means of collecting rainwater.

The last is my favorite.  Collection of rainwater had to be the castaways' highest priority.  How do you collect rainwater?  You have to catch the rain on a waterproof surface before it hits the porous ground and then direct it into some kind of container.  What kind of waterproof surface is available to a castaway on Gardner Island in the 1930s?  The old Arundel corrugation is the only thing I can come up with.

The trouble is, the stuff is wickedly heavy.  Given the thickness of the fragments we found and purely guessing that a sheet might be 4 feet by 8 feet (like a modern sheet of plywood), such a sheet might easily weigh a hundred pounds.

So here's the question:

Can AE and FN move roughly a ton of corrugated iron two miles?

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:31:44
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Probably, but wouldn't it be a lot easier to collect the water at Nutiran, and move the water? I would bet that the other scenarios are more likely. I would drag, carry, or move the sheets somehow to the lagoon shore, and raft them to the 7 site. Sounds like a lot of work and multiple trips.

Dan Postellon TIGHAR#2263

> Can AE and FN move roughly a ton of corrugated iron two miles?
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:32:01
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

As to the corrugated metal. I don't know about the 30's, but today's corrugated sheet metal usually comes in 4' wide x 8' sections. The length of the sections varies, however, and may come in 10, 12 or 14' sections up to 20'. I have never seen it in 8' widths. Could it have been moved there to build the house at the site which Gallagher mentioned? But was laid out and never built or was only partially built?

LTM,
Dave Bush
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:38:08
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

As to the weight, the modern stuff is relatively light, but again, there are different "weights" or thicknesses depending on the use. It would be relatively easy to drag, however by lifting one end. There is a lot of research that can be done in this regard. You might want to check out the following websites:

http://www.traditional-building.com/brochure/members/bostwick.shtml

http://www.corrugated-iron-club.info/

http://dir.yahoo.com/Business_and_Economy/Business_to_Business/Construction/Thermal_and_Moisture_Protection/Roofing/Metal_Roof_and_Wall_Panels/

LTM,
Dave Bush
Houston, Texas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:42:59
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Theoretical  problem

> It appears to be consistent with iron corrugation used in the 1890s.
> We know that John T. Arundel brought 26 sheets of corrugated iron to
> the island to use in the construction of buildings for his laborers in
> the 1890s. Tom King's rough guess is that there were about 20 sheets
> of corrugation laid out on the ground at the Seven Site.

But would corrugated iron have lasted this long in the environment of Gardner? I do not believe it would. Iron rusts so quickly in a salt environment that it has to be replaced quite often if not properly treated. I can't see how it was placed there by AE or by Gallagher. It had to have been placed there by Arundel.

LTM,
Dave Bush
Houston, Texas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:43:21
From:         Alfred Hendrickson
Subject:      Moving iron

Q: "Can AE and FN move roughly a ton of corrugated iron two miles?"

A: I can only make a guess. Assuming they were in good shape, and had sufficient food and water to keep themselves up to the task, I'd say they could have done it. But, would they have done it? In my opinion, it seems unlikely. It would have been a strenuous undertaking. I rather think they'd have just laid the sheets out where they found them and catch the water there. Why lug the stuff to 7?

LTM (Lug That Metal?),

Alfred Hendrickson #2583
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 19:20:46
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Corrugated sheets

Ric said:  "Can AE and FN move roughly a ton of corrugated iron two miles?"

Yes. Given enough time and determination they certainly could.

But why would they need 20 sheets of it?  Granted having 20 sheets would ensure an increased capacity to collect rain water, but if they didn't have the capacity (which we don't know) to save all that was collected, why bother.  Using the sheets to collect water at the Arundel site instead would've meant they'd have to travel four miles each time it rained to tote a relatively small amounts of water back to their camp.  They be spending most of their time lugging water from Arundel to Seven and expending a lot water (sweat) in the process.  My guess is that they'd sweat off in four miles as much water as they could carry, assuming they had the capacity to carry any significant amounts.

I could certainly see them taking one or two sheet but not 20.

Now, if you had a couple of dozen men and assigned four to each sheet you could move the whole pile in three trips.  But why?  Why circumstances would demand that you have 20 (?) sheets of corrugated iron in one spot?  My guess would be roofing for Gallagher's house.

Does dew form on plants etc. on Niku?  Having 20 sheets of iron laid on the ground might make a primitive but nifty condenser (?) if the temperatures and humidity were right.  Still . . . that's a lot of work, but if you have the time and determination . . . who knows.

LTM, who uses Home Depot because they deliver
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 19:22:12
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Has TIGHAR ever had a look at any of the journals or diaries in this collection?

I notice Gardner is not specifically mentioned, but there are journals and diaries for the years he was there.

There's also a chart of the islands, but I have no idea which islands..

Th' WOMBAT

National Library of Australia:

MS 5410
Papers of J.T. Arundel

Box List
Box 1

Folders

1. J.T.A. from L.W. (notebook)

2. Sundry data of my life (1865-1892) (notebook)

3. Miscellaneous papers - mainly printed

4. Correspondence : Sir Albert Ellis/S.D. [Arundel] Aris, including article on Phoenix Group

5. Correspondence 1897-1899 - Stanmore: letters from/to Arundel

6. Stanmore: Correspondence 1901-1908

7. Ocean Island and Nauru - Filmed as PMB 498 Miscellaneous papers on phosphate industry in the collection of John T. Arundel)

8. Stanmore correspondence 1909-1912 and resignation

9. Arundel correspondence with Prof. Agassiz, 1902-1909

Box 2

Folders

1. Correspondence re Capt. Johannessen, (Ocean Queen)

2. Miscellaneous papers 1885

3. Press comments on Ocean Islanders' exploitation

4. Flashlights and Reflections by E.B.

5. Documents on phosphate, mainly printed

6. Sydney Island -- charts, agreement, etc., 1881-1890

7. Correspondence: sundry Pacific Islands to 31/12/12

8. Correspondence with P.P. Co. 1912/1914

Box 3

Folders

1-3. Journals 1870-1871

4-6. Journals 1872-1874

7-8. Charts of Pacific Islands

Box 4

Folders

1-2. Papers 1881-1888: Capt. Mann: native agreements

3-7. J.T. Arundel : Journal 1875-1880

8-9. J.T. Arundel : Journal 1881- 1885

Box 5

Folders

1-2. J.T. Arundel : Journal 1881-1885

3-6. J.T. Arundel : Journal 1886-1889

7-9. J.T. Arundel : Journal 1890-1892

Box 6

Folders

1-2. J.T. Arundel : Journal 1893-1894

3-4. J.T. Arundel : Journal 1894 -

5. Arundel: Notebooks (MS)

6-7. Purdy Islands

Box 7

Folders

1-2. Papers on Kooria Mooria Islands and Burnt Island (Gulf of Aden) 1880s

3. Wireless (Charter Parties - agreement forms)

4-5. Notes on Islands: Purdy, Makatea and sundry others

6-8. Agreement between H.M. Government & Arundel (Licenses etc.)

Box 8

Folders

1-2. Agreement between H.M. Government and J.T. Arundel

3. Printed papers: prospectuses & general

4. National Academy of Sciences: Memoir: Report of the Eclipse Expedition to Caroline Islands, May 1883

5. Memoirs of the Museum of Comparative Zoology at Harvard College, Vol. XXIX (1903)

6. Memoirs of the Museum Of Comparative Zoology at Harvard College, Vol. XXIX (1903), Plates

7. Twelve volumes of diaries, 1895-1900

Box 9

Folders

Diaries, 1895-1900

Box 10

Folders

1 - 2. Diaries 1895 - 1900

3-10. Thirty four diaries, 1900 - 1919

Box 11

Folders

1-10. Diaries, 1900-1919

Box 12
Folders


1-8. Diaries, 1900-1919

Box 13

Folders

Diaries, 1900-1919

8. Note: the diary for the period 15 June - 16 November 1909 is in Box 16 ARUNDEL PHOTOGRAPHS : MS 5410 - Added 28 November 1984

Box 14

J.T. Arundel

Nauru I 1-67

Nauru II 107-155

Nauru III 170-188 plus 30 loose unnumbered photos

Nauru photos attached to report by Mr A.H. Gaze section 2 (15 Oct 1907) 1-50 (alternative numbering 96-misc. numbering)

J.T. Arundel - Photographs by H.A. Gaze continued 47-misc. numbering

Folio - Unmarked album beginning with photos of Mr Arundel's cottage at Sydney Island 1-87

Folio - Unmarked album with unnumbered photos

Box 15

Recruiting trip in Gilbert & Ellice Islands 1908 1-24

Ocean Island 1-78

Ocean Island 80-165

Ocean Island 111 166-243

J.T. Arundel - Ocean Island IV 244-312

J.T. Arundel - Ocean Island V 313-390

J.T. Arundel - Ocean Island VI 391-467

Box 16

J.T. Arundel - Ocean Island VII 468-493

Folio SS Ocean Queen Photos

Portrait Teniamakin - Queen of Ocean Island from 1900?

Envelope of loose photographs

4 loose maps - Flint, Jarvis, Baker, Caroline Islands

Diary 15 June - 16 November 1909

--
We don't use Windows - so You get fewer Viruses.
Mepis Linux, Mozilla and OpenOffice.org.
======================================================================== 
=
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 19:22:46
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

For more info on metal, check these out:

http://www.corrugated-metals.com/gaugeref_uncoated.html

http://www.corrugated-metals.com/steelthicknesschart.html

LTM,
Dave Bush
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 19:23:07
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

OK, assume your scenario.  Numerous sheets of corrugated iron would be found in close proximity to the bones (again, assuming the Seven Site is the location of the original bone discovery).  Wouldn't that have raised an eyebrow as to why sheets of iron were laid down on the ground (by Gallagher) and brought to attention for higher authorities?  Also, wouldn't the islanders use the iron sheeting found there as the roofing for the water cistern located at the Seven Site?  You imply that the water cistern iron roofing is different from that located on the ground nearby.

The latter argument suggests that your favorite scenario of iron sheeting brought over by AE and FN is seemingly inconsistent with the facts of iron composition of the various sheets.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 19:24:13
From:         Al Hillis
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

You bring to life a fact that the island has a turbulent side. That means that the island's ends are into the wind. Does either end have enough length to land an Electra being that sand would create a highly effect brake for slowing a plane down at touch down. I mean, any pilot would attempt a landing into the wind if at all possible. I believe no one knew the winds during the time she was supposed to be at her destination and the time and place she finalized her flight. As a tail dragger she would try for a 3 point landing which should help prevent a flip over. It would be a very short landing in sand. We practiced short take off and landings as part of getting a FAA ticket

I also believe she came to rest in such a manner that the starboard (no 2) engine, which operates the generator, was able to be started explaining the later transmissions. If one is engine is good then most likely the other survived the landing. Please don't think of me as being dumb if the left engine operated the generator.

Just a couple of questions -

1.      How far is Howland from this island?

2.      Are there enough beaches to land the Electra either at the north or south end of the island, into the wind?

3.      Is there enough beach to land going north or south on the east or west side?

4.      Where do you believe is the place the plane landed on the island?

5.      Where do you believe is the final resting place of the plane?

This leads me to a couple of scenarios:

1.      The plane was left in a position to start the right engine, or left, therefore making the radio usable. They would need only to clear the propeller for rotation. If they did, as your thinking indicates, reach the island? I bet there was some fuel remaining. Proof would be that if out of fuel they would glide like a rock and most likely crash. That plane had to be flown (under power) to the point of touch down How much fuel do you calculate she had if she did reach the island? After a reasonable search of course.

2.      They, after determination of exactly where they were and with a considerable effort managed to try a take off, into the wind and crashed into the turbulent surf or just off shore. This could explain the wood from the sextant box and shoe sole as they were washed ashore. The portion of the sextant boxes condition could have been the result of being kept by later inhabitants in whole or partial then discarding it several years later.

3.      The plane could have been so close to the sea as to be finally washed away and sinking into deeper waters.

4.      The plane lies close and amid the scattered wreckage of the freighter as natives claim. I believe this was a result of an attempted take off.

In finalization you can call this as nothing but guessing but I tried to apply analysis to what I have read on TIGHAR. Thankfully you will construe this document as an attempt to substantiate your claims of Amelia's events as you believe.

Respectfully,
Al Hillis

======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 19:24:44
From:         Don Iwanski
Subject:      Re: Moving iron

Was any of the metal checked and identified as either closely resembling american technology or perhaps it closely resembled Japanese technology as far as the makeup and composition of the metal?  I know the Navy widely used similar metal such as that to lay down temporary landing strips in World War 2, and I was wondering if perhaps any of the metal resembled that.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 20:17:12
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Ross Devitt asks

> Has TIGHAR ever had a look at any of the journals or diaries in this
> collection?

Yes.  The Kiribati National archive has the collection on microfilm. We looked at it when Van Hunn and I were in Tarawa in 2001.  That's how we know about the corrugated iron.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 20:17:39
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Al Hillis says:

> In finalization you can call this as nothing but guessing but I tried to
> apply analysis to what I have read on TIGHAR. Thankfully you will construe
> this document as an attempt to substantiate your claims of Amelia's events
> as you believe.

It's the thought that counts, and I do appreciate it, but you're operating at a tremendous disadvantage because you're not familiar with the information available on the TIGHAR website.

I'd suggest you start with the TIGHAR Hypothesis at
http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/AEhypothesis.html

It's a bit dated (November of 2001) but still valid.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 20:18:02
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Moving iron

The metal runways used during WWII was much thicker and had various holes in it (http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/korea/psp.htm).  It does not resemble what was found at the Seven Site.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 2004 20:18:22
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Moving iron

Don Iwanski asked:

> Was any of the metal checked and identified as either closely
> resembling american technology or perhaps it closely resembled
> japanese technology as far as the makeup and composition of the metal?
>  I know the Navy widely used similar metal
> such as that to lay down temporary landing strips in World War 2, and
> I was wondering if perhaps any of the metal resembled that.

As I said, the corrugation most closely resembles iron sheeting used in the 1890s.  It is nothing like the pierced steel  matting used for landing strips during WW2.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:19:15
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

I asked:

> Can AE and FN move roughly a ton of corrugated iron two miles?

and, predictably, I get opinions about why they wouldn't move it, opinions that it wouldn't have lasted,  opinions that they wouldn't need 20 sheets, opinions that Gallagher would have mentioned it, and descriptions of modern corrugated metal.  I love you guys.

Look....

The stuff is there at the Seven Site whether we think it should be there or not. Somebody brought it there whether we think they should have or not. If the Seven Site is the castaways' campsite - whoever the castaways were - he/she/they chose to live there for a reason whether we understand the reason or not. If the corrugation was brought to the Seven Site by the castaways then it must have been important to them to do that whether we understand the reason or not. If they brought 20 sheets they needed 20 sheets whether we understand why or not.

Maybe the stuff was brought there for the construction of a house for Gallagher that never got built.  If so, it's odd that the colonists didn't use the lighter corrugation they used for the roof over the tank.  A house with a roof made of that much metal sheet would be huge. Still, it's a possibility.

It's also a possibility that Gallagher used the metal sheeting to cover and protect cleared areas he planned to search later for more castaway evidence but it seems to me that he could have found something lighter and easier to use.  We covered our excavations with plastic tarps. Canvas tarps would have also worked.  Still, it's a possibility.

What I'm trying to get a handle on is whether two castaways - a man and a woman - could figure out a way to move that much iron sheeting two miles.  It seems obvious that the only way to do it would be by constructing a raft and walking the loaded raft (might take several trips) along the shallows of the lagoon shore.  The question becomes whether they can construct an adequate raft with the materials at hand.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:20:45
From:         Mike Juliano
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

I don't think AE and FN would have or could have moved the sheets. But how about someone else moving them. Has there been any evidence of a "still" found? You can make a rum from coconuts--quite tasty I hear. What I'm getting at is that may be some enterprising individuals transported the sheets to the lee side of the island, and used them to keep the foliage down and provide shelter for their operation. Although a commercial venture I don't think they'd want to advertise their presence.

LTM ( who might have tried coconut rum --once or twice.)
Mike Juliano #2590
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:22:22
From:         Kerry Tiller
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

I don't buy the castaways humping sheets of corrugated iron two miles to the 7 site. Especially if they had to destroy structures (ready-made shelter) to do it. Why would the castaways prefer to stay at the 7 site vs. the remnants of the Arundel village? Abundance of food? If they were healthy enough to move the iron sheets, they were healthy enough to travel between the sites; gathering food at the 7 site and using the shelter (and rain catchment) at the Arundel settlement.

Before we get too far into this we need to examine the Arundel thing closely. Ric stated that Arundel imported 26 corrugated iron sheets for construction at the village on Niuteron (sp?). OK, fine. Did he intend to use all 26 sheets in the initial construction? Or, did he intend to have some in reserve for future construction? Several forumites are already working on what a sheet of iron was in 1890. That's important. Exactly what were the dimensions? How were the buildings constructed? was the iron used just for roofs, or for walls as well? How were the iron sheets altered in this construction? (If at all.) What I want to know is how many of the 26 iron sheets were used in the construction of the settlement and how those sheets that were used may have been cut, sized, bent, etc. during construction.

I'll take a breath here. How much do we really know about the Arundel operation? Since we have strong evidence of a connection between the Arundel settlement and the 7 site (the corrugated iron sheets) it might behoove us to spend some archaeological resources on the Arundel site. If your theory that that the castaways removed the iron sheets from the settlement to the 7 site is true; that means that the castaways spent time at the Arundel settlement; enough time to dismantle structures and haul off several hundred pounds of material. They may have left something important (to us) of themselves there. If the castaways weren't there, we might find out how, who, when or why the iron sheets wound up at the 7 site.

I'll shut up now.
LTM
Kerry Tiller
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:23:34
From:         Carl Peltzer
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

try this one on  for size.

Suppose they got down safely, did the post loss msgs  figured where they were and took off expecting to get to howland even if late; were sucessful in taking off [or not and ended just ofshore explaining how wreckage was not found and they got back to the island with minimal supplies including the sexrant etc and were too injured to signal the search planes] and started to howland but the fuel wasn't enough and they landed in the water.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:25:21
From:         Jack Clark
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

Re my forum posting for 27/Nov re Mystery Message.

I have today 3/Dec been to the State Library of Victoria in Melbourne and started going through the Melbourne newspapers for July 1937 on microfilm. So far I have covered two papers The Melbourne Age and The Melbourne Argus (now defunct). I can find no mention of a cable such as the one Ric posted and no mention of a cable sent by anyone named Kirkby.

The closest I could find was a report from Honolulu dated 9/July a message heard by a Mr Conrad Mentant, an amateur operator (no location given)who heard a man's voice saying "All's well" and later "Position 173 west longitude and 5 south latitude" which I think is about 90 nm SE of Gardiner. I cannot recall hearing of this message before but undoubtedly you have it filed away somewhere. I will check the two remaining Melbourne papers as soon as I can just in case but it will probably some days before I can get back to it. I think it's a forlorn hope of finding Kirkby.

Jack Clark #2564
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:25:40
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

If you read up on how COPRA is made it seems that the metal you're referring to could have been used during the drying process.  Arundel was  in the business of making copra.

However, if Arundel's plantings were at the other end of the island why would he have hauled that heavy load all the way to the other end of the  island. On the other hand if Gallagher and his gang planted coconut trees  near the 7 site (I believe that was Gallagher's plan) and later the copra  was harvested the sheets of metal would have provided the surface for drying and thus the incentive to move the sheets from one end of the island to the  other.

If the above makes sense then it seems you have indeed found the general area where Gallagher found the bones, etc.  He did note in his communications at the time the area where he found the bones was to be cleared  for planting and a further search would be made during the clearing  operation. Furthermore, I would think the original plan to clear and plant  would go ahead even though Gallagher had died.

Having said all the above it seems to me that if the 7 site area was in fact later turned into some sort of a copra production area the surrounding ground would have experience a great deal of foot/machinery traffic. Therefore, any AE artifacts in the area could have been trampled on (into dust) or moved along with other debris to the circumference of the planting/manufacturing area.  Rather than searching in the immediate 7 site  area maybe a look along its periphery would be more productive.

Ted Campbell
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:40:12
From:         Alfred Hendrickson
Subject:      More on iron

Ric wrote: "What I'm trying to get a handle on is whether two castaways - a man and a woman - could figure out a way to move that much iron sheeting two miles."

My bottom-line answer: I think they could have.

Ric also wrote: "I love you guys."

Great. We all love you, too, Ric!

LTM, Lots of love on this Forum, ain't there?

Alfred Hendrickson #2583
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:53:26
From:         Don Iwanski
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

There was a Loran station put on the island during after WW2 and I remember seeing a picture of a truck and soldier on TIGHAR's website somewhere which was taken on Gardner. This type of metal is commonly used in the construction of temporary shelter.  Perhaps it was used as temporary housing for the people installing the LORAN station.

Im not sure if it was a LORAN - and also unsure of the time frame, correct me if I am wrong.

Much appreciated

Don I.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:01:05
From:         Jack Thomas
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

How visible would these sheets have been from the air?  Perhaps they were arranged in an SOS pattern?  I'm only half joking...

-Jack Thomas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:01:27
From:         Dave Hertog
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Was the area were sheets were located open to the sky and if so could it just of been sections of sheet iron broken apart by corrosion, and easily moved, displaying an SOS instead of a mass of sheets covering all of an area 

Dave #2505
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:02:07
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

> What I'm trying to get a handle on is whether two castaways - a man and
> a woman - could figure out a way to move that much iron sheeting two
> miles.  It seems obvious that the only way to do it would be by
> constructing a raft and walking the loaded raft (might take several
> trips) along the shallows of the lagoon shore.  The question becomes
> whether they can construct an adequate raft with the materials at hand.

So, the real question is, could they have moved ONE sheet of it?

Then (perhaps) make movable groups and repeat as necessary.

Is that "a ton" number for one sheet?  I've worked with some bits of corrugated iron (yes, iron, not steel) in very old buildings, but never in sheets the size you mention.  I recall it being awfully heavy even for just 1' X 2' sections.

As a practical item, my kids (three of them) and two friends moved the hulk of a car from our back yard to our spare driveway a few weeks ago.  The car weighed about 3000# in road trim, but this was minus the engine and drive train, so knock off 1200# to 1500# (I can't recall if it was a 6 or a V8). Originally my younger two (18 & 24) tried to drag it themselves and couldn't budge it.  It took  five boys 18 to 28 years old in good health to pick it up and move it 100' with a bit of strain.

      - Bill #2224
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:02:37
From:         Mike Juliano
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

How about the possibility of the military. To my understanding there was a Loran transmitter at that end of the island. For most types of transmitters to work they have to be properly grounded. Could those sheets be used as a "ground grid"? In order for DeForrest (early radio pioneer)to have his long range transmitters work in Florida he had to sink 40' lengths of iron pipe into the soft sand to establish a good "ground".
LTM
Mike Juliano
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:30:05
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Kerry Tiller asks:

> Why would the castaways prefer to stay at the 7 site vs. the remnants
> of the Arundel village? Abundance of food? If they were healthy enough
> to move the iron sheets, they were healthy enough to travel between the
> sites; gathering food at the 7 site and using the shelter (and rain
> catchment) at the Arundel settlement.

I can think of a number of reasons why a castaway would choose to live at the Seven Site rather than on Nutiran but what I can imagine is not important.  What is important is that the castaway(s) of Gardner Island DID choose to live at the Seven Site despite the fact that the only coconut trees then on the island were two miles away at the west end where the remains of the Arundel building were and where the Norwich City cache was located.  We can opine all day that, based upon what we know 60 some-odd years later, sitting in front of our computers, it seems crazy to move down to the Seven Site but, unless you want to argue that the castaway came ashore down there and was incapable of going anywhere else, the fact remains that somebody made a conscious decision to live there.

> Before we get too far into this we need to examine the Arundel thing
> closely. Ric stated that Arundel imported 26 corrugated iron sheets for
> construction at the village on Niuteron (sp?). OK, fine. Did he intend to
> use all 26 sheets in the initial construction? Or, did he intend to
> have some in reserve for future construction?

Our information comes from Arundel's handwritten notes in his journal which I saw on microfilm in Tarawa. There was no "village".  This was not a settlement, it was a work camp. The notation says:

1 store house - 8 sheets iron
1 dwelling - 12 sheets iron
1 cook house - 6 sheets iron

>  Several forumites are already
> working on what a sheet of iron was in 1890. That's important. Exactly what
> were the dimensions? How were the buildings constructed? was the iron used
> just for roofs, or for walls as well? How were the iron sheets altered in
> this construction? (If at all.) What I want to know is how many of the 26
> iron sheets were used in the construction of the settlement and how those
> sheets that were used may have been cut, sized, bent, etc. during
> construction.

I'd like to know all that too, but I don't think we're going to.

> How much do we really know about the Arundel
> operation? Since we have strong evidence of a connection between the Arundel
> settlement and the 7 site (the corrugated iron sheets) it might behoove us
> to spend some archaeological resources on the Arundel site.

We're not even sure that the old frames on Nutiran are the remains of the Arundel buildings.  At least one of the buildings was clearly re-used by the later PISS settlers when Nutiran was cleared and planted.  We've looked at that structure in some detail but we've found nothing there that can be conclusively linked to either the Arundel operation or the castaways.

LTM,
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:30:34
From:         Ric Campbell
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Ted Campbell says:

> On the other hand if Gallagher and his gang planted coconut trees near the 7
> site (I believe that was Gallagher's plan) and later the copra  was harvested
> the sheets of metal would have provided the surface for drying and thus the
> incentive to move the sheets from one end of the island to the  other.

There is clear evidence near (but not at) the Seven Site that there was an attempt to plant cocos but the trees died before reaching maturity. There are only a few scattered coconut palms there now and there are no remains of the trunks of mature trees.  Instead, there are some small, regularly-spaced depressions such as are used in coconut planting and, occasionally, the remains of a seed nut.  I think it's safe to say that the coconut-growing experiment on that part of the island was a failure and that no copra was ever harvested there.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:30:51
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Don Iwanski says:

> Im not sure if it was a LORAN - and also unsure of the time frame,
> correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, there was a Coast Guard Loran station on the island from 1944 to 1946.  Corrugated metal was used for some of the buildings.  That metal is different from the corrugated metal under discussion.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:31:16
From:         Carl Peltzer
Subject:      Re: Iron sheet problem

good thought:

Very low frequency hf radio, which loran is, needs a very large ground to work properly so might be the answer to our problem of the corrogated iron.

example:   Cb radio is up at 27 mhz and the portable  version uses the car roof and body as the mirror image to work well when transmitting to get the swr down to best number and efficiency.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:31:36
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Jack Thomas asks,

> How visible would these sheets have been from the air?  Perhaps they
> were arranged in an SOS pattern?  I'm only half joking...

Depends on whether or not they were back under the trees, but Lambrecht flew over the island only a week after the disappearance so it's highly unlikely that the sheets had been moved by then.
======================================================================= 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:31:59
From:         Mike Juliano
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

After doing some research on the web I found there was an S.S.Milbourne owner by The Milbourne Steam Ship company but they had been out of business at the time of AE. There was /is? a long distance radio telegraph station in Milbourne, Australia. There was also a radio telegraph facility in Milbourne, Florida. Could the message have been sent from Florida after being heard by "Kirkby" in the same way that Betty and the others heard their post loss messages?
LTM,
Mike J.#2590
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:32:16
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Dave Hertog asks:

> Was the area were sheets were located open to the sky and if so could it
> just of been sections of sheet iron broken apart by corrosion, and easily
> moved, displaying an SOS instead of a mass of sheets covering all of an area

Aerial photography taken in 1937, 1938, and 1941, shows the area at that time as being sheltered by trees and we can't really see the ground. Whether it was open enough for rainwater collection is hard to tell but it wouldn't make any sense to  put an SOS signal there rather than out on the beach.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:32:37
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Mike Juliano asks:

> How about the possibility of the military. To my understanding there
> was a Loran transmitter at that end of the island. For most types of
> transmitters to work they have to be properly grounded. Could those
> sheets be used as a "ground grid"?

The Seven Site is about a half hour walk from the Loran station.  It is in no way part of that facility.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:33:03
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

> From Ric
>
> Can AE and FN move roughly a ton of corrugated iron two miles?

Might AE and FN have settled down next to 20 sheets of iron that they found already in place?

Perhaps that was one of the features that made the site attractive.

LTM.
Marty #2359
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:33:22
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

Jack Clark says:

> The closest I could find was a report from Honolulu dated 9/July a
> message heard by a Mr Conrad Mentant, an amateur operator (no location
> given)who heard a man's voice saying "All's well" and later
> "Position 173 west longitude and 5 south latitude" which I think is
> about 90 nm SE of Gardiner. I cannot recall hearing of this
> message before but undoubtedly you have it filed away somewhere.

That's pretty interesting.  I've never heard of Conrad Mentant but the July 9 New York Herald Tribune carried an article that mentioned a ham operator in Ohio by the name of Ray Havens hearing a message that said "All's well. Position 5 degrees S. Lat.173 W. Long."

If what we have here are two amateurs hearing messages with identical content on the same day that could be significant.  Was the report from Honolulu credited to any particular newspaper or wire service?

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:15:14
From:         Don Iwanski
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

There is a picture somewhere on the TIGHAR website which shows a strange looking box structure sitting on the beach near the 7 site.  I always thought it was the water cistern but perhaps it was something constructed out of this material.  I can not locate the picture right off hand, I know it was talked about at some point.

Much Appreciated

Don I.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:29:57
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

Mike Juliano says:

> There was /is? a long distance radio telegraph station in
> Milbourne,Australia.
> There was also a radio telegraph facility in Milbourne, Florida.Could
> the message have been sent from Florida after being heard by "Kirkby"
> in the same way that Betty and the others heard their post loss
> messages?

The name is Melbourne.  The message was signed Kirkby.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:29:44
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Marty Moleski asks:

> Might AE and FN have settled down next to 20 sheets of iron that they found
> already in place?
>
> Perhaps that was one of the features that made the site attractive.

Certainly a possibility but we're still left with the question of who brought them there and why.

Arundel is still the only known possible "who" (prior to 1937).  If Arundel was the "who" then the "why" was almost certainly the same as at Nutiran - the construction of a work camp.  We don't know how extensive Arundel's plantings were at Gardner.  We do know that by October 1937 when Maude and Bevington visited the island there were only five groves of trees surviving - all at the west end.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:30:04
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Don Iwanski says:

> There is a picture somewhere on the TIGHAR website which shows a strange
> looking box structure sitting on the beach near the 7 site.  I always thought 
> it was the water cistern but perhaps it was something constructed out of this
> material.  I can not locate the picture right off hand, I know it was
> talked about at some point.

It's at
http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/23_SevenSite/23_SevenSite.html

That research bulletin might be useful for people to review.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:30:43
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Carl, someone may have suggested this before but I don't recall it (Taking off again). I don't think we have ever seriously considered this for a couple of  reasons. One, they certainly did not have sufficient fuel to do more than run an  engine for their radio. Two, the only runway was at Howland and I can't see they  had fuel to make it back there. you might suggest they took off to get altitude  for better radio range but the first landing was risky enough. I don't think  they would have tried it again. Possible but doubtful. My fuel analysis  indicated to me a maximum of 139 gallons of fuel at 8:43 L and maybe a  significant amount less. I believe they could make it to Niku, survey the island  for a landing place and put it on the ground. That should have left them with  very little fuel but enough to run one engine periodically.   From the radio calls  I see an indication one of their first calls was made on battery but subsequent  calls were made with an engine running.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:43:04
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

> Might AE  and FN have settled down next to 20 sheets of iron that they found
> already in  place? Perhaps that was one of the features that made the site
> attractive.

Marty, you may have the right idea. There was something about the seven site that drew folks to it. With nothing very obvious that could be it.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:08:58
From:         Craig Fuller
Subject:      Re: theoretical problem

Ric said

> Arundel was the "who" then the "why" was almost certainly
> the same as at Nutiran - the construction of a work camp.  We don't
> know how extensive Arundel's plantings were at Gardner.

I already deleted the other e-mail, so I can't reread it ;-0   but you mentioned non-mature palm fronds at the site. You talked as if they were from Gallagher's time. What makes you so sure they were from Gallagher not Arundel's plantings?

Craig Fuller
AAIR Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research
www.AviationArchaeology.com         aair@juno.com
Falcon Field Station Box 22049
Mesa, AZ 85277-2049
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:51:13
From:         Angus Murray
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

Ric said,

> That's pretty interesting.  I've never heard of Conrad Mentant but the
> July 9 New York Herald Tribune carried an article that mentioned a ham
> operator in Ohio by the name of Ray Havens hearing a message that said
> "All's well. Position 5 degrees S. Lat.173 W. Long."
>
> If what we have here are two amateurs hearing messages with identical
> content on the same day that could be significant.  Was the report from
> Honolulu credited to any particular newspaper or wire service?

This is simply the same report. Ray Havens was from Conrad Montana. Somebody along the line probably needed some new specs unless Jack looked at an archive built using an optical character reader which often produce these sort of errors.

Angus
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:51:39
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Alan Caldwell says:

> There was something about the seven  site
> that drew folks to it. With nothing very obvious that could be it.

Nothing obvious by just looking at a map, but after you've spent quite a bit of time on various parts of the island you begin to realize that, if you're a castaway trying to survive on Gardner Island in the 1930s, the Seven Site has a lot going for it, even without previously installed metal carpeting.

As Rob Crusoe could tell you, there are three key considerations when picking a spot to set up housekeeping on a desert island - location, location, location.

With no source of freshwater other than rain you need to be someplace where you can spread out whatever means you can find to collect rainwater.  You can't be deep in the jungle or forest, but you can't be out on the bare coral rubble either.  It's an oven out there and collected water evaporates quickly.  An ideal spot would be open woodland without a dense overstory but still some shade.

You need to be up high enough to not worry about being washed away by storms and where you can sit in the shade and be cooled by the prevailing breezes.  On Niku, that means being in open woodland near the windward side shore.  Nutiran, where the Arundel plantings and the Norwich City cache were, is a hell-hole.

You need ready access to both the ocean and the lagoon for food.  The Seven Site is on the narrowest part of the island that has enough shade to be inhabitable.  It also borders the buka forest where birds are plentiful.

And finally, you need what Crusoe (actually Defoe of course) called "a view to the sea" where you can watch for ships.  At the Seven Site you can climb a tree and have a clear view of both the northern and - looking across the lagoon - southern horizons.

  From a castaway's perspective the Seven Site is the best spot on the island and I'm convinced that the castaway who picked it chose it carefully after much exploration, consideration, and painful experience.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:51:53
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Craig Fuller asks:

> you mentioned non-mature palm fronds at the site. You talked as if they
> were from Gallagher's time. What makes you so sure they were from
> Gallagher not Arundel's plantings?

Fair question.  We have no indication that Arundel ever did any planting there.  We have abundant evidence in both Gallagher's own writings and in property allocation maps of the island, that Gallagher planned experimental plantings there.  There is, in fact, much discussion in the PISS files about the suitability of various environments on different parts of the atoll for the cultivation of coconuts.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:12:59
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

> Kerry Tiller stated: ...we might find out how,  who, when or why the
> iron sheets wound up at the 7 site.

Is there any possibility that what you found there were pieces blown to the site by a storm, not carried there by any human endeavor? Do you know for sure how many sheets of iron were at the 7 site, or are you just guessing?

LTM,
Dave Bush
Houston, Texas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:13:21
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

You stated:

> ... It's also a possibility that Gallagher used the metal sheeting to cover
> and protect cleared areas he planned to search later for more castaway
> evidence but it seems to me that he could have found something lighter
> and easier to use.  We covered our excavations with plastic tarps.
> Canvass tarps would have also worked.  Still, it's a possibility.

I don't know how many canvas tarps would have been available to Gallagher, but unless he planned to bring a lot of them with him, he couldn't just run down to  the Home Depot and purchase them. He may have been using the only materials available to him. I doubt that they brought any great store of such things, nor had them readily available.

LTM,
Dave Bush
Houston, Texas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:14:10
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Ric's theory

Ric said:  "With no source of freshwater other than rain you need to be someplace where you can spread out whatever means you can find to collect rainwater.  You can't be deep in the jungle or forest, but you can't be out on the bare coral rubble either.  It's an oven out there and collected water evaporates quickly.  An ideal spot would be open woodland without a dense overstory but still some shade."

I agree with most of the stuff you listed on how to survive on a deserted island, but I still have a hard time seeing the steel sheets in the same light as you see them.

The water collection process does not demand that the castaway be there to monitor things, so having it in the open sun light would not be a detriment to the collection or harvesting.  After the rains stop you go out harvest what you can and go back to the forest.  And yes, any water not collected would evaporate but the same holds true for water collected in the forest, just that it would evaporate more slowly, even though we have no data to support this assumption or the rate of evaporation.

We also have no data on what their storage capacity was.  The Benedictine bottle?  Okay, that's about enough for one person for a half day or so?  Were they using stuff hastily scavenged from the airplane? Yes, that's possible, but what did they take?  And we see no hard evidence of that.  Also, how would they know to take things from the plane that they could use as storage containers?  Our present theory has them abandoning the aircraft within a couple of days after landing, so I wonder if they had much time to figure out what was needed and still have the strength (physical,  emotional, and psychological) to risk their lives going through the surf to get it.  IF they had the capacity to storage sufficient qualities of water for survival would they have carried it from the old Arundel camp or the airplane, or did they luck out and find something at the 7 site.

I apologize for the disjointed presentation, but using the steel sheets for a water collection devise raise more questions than it answers.

LTM, who needs a Coke about now
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:14:54
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

The iron sheets were definitely not a ground for the Loran station. Besides being too far away, Loran antenna have very impressive grounding systems. If you see aerial photos of the antenna, you will see a tall guyed-mast tower in the middle of a large circular area.  Under that circle are buried copper ground wires in a radial pattern, extending from the base of the tower.  I wonder if they are still on Nikumaroro?

The antenna may have put out a half megawatt of power, so you didn't want to be within the circle when the antenna was transmitting.  You would be fried by the current you picked up.  Apparently you didn't want to drop any nails or other metal objects in this area, either.

The metal quonset huts that held the generators, transmitters, and barracks were also grounded to avoid stray currents.

Daniel Postellon TIGHAR#2263 (former IBEW)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:15:21
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Not meaning to be Spammy, but I can't resist mentioning that there's a concise but (I think) fairly thorough discussion of the "corrugated problem" in the new edition of AE's Shoes, including my own preferred hypothesis, which is that Gallagher put the stuff down to cover the area he'd searched and discourage  the growth of veggies.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:15:36
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

A couple more observations about the Seven Site and corrugated:

1. Another reason for thinking that the evenly spaced depressions near the Seven Site are of colonial rather than Arundel vintage is that they're similar in depth to depressions on Aukaraime South that pretty closely match colonial-era plantings shown in airphotos.

2. Additional reasons to camp at the Seven Site include the fact that sea turtles come ashore to lay their eggs on the nearby shore, and that if you circle the island before landing you're likely to see the two ponds nearby (though closer to what later became the Loran site) and might imagine them to contain fresh water -- or at least want to check them out.

3. One problem with the idea that the castaways dragged the corrugated to the site (besides what I think is its inherent implausibility), or for that  matter with the idea that ANYBODY dragged them in before 1940 is that Gallagher didn't report seeing them.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:17:55
From:         Scott White
Subject:      Re: Conjecture, hypothesis, theory

Replying again to Ric (still a few loose ends . . .)

> . . . any explanation for the Seven Site has to involve
> somebody dying there.

Or bones being transported there after the fact? Likewise the sole. If it had washed up on shore, it could have been carried to the site.

> I'll be interested to hear about these careless prior visitors.

It's not unreasonable that the Norwich City navigator might have taken his sextant onto the island to fix their position. There were others on the island prior to 1940 who would have had reason to fix their positions also. And lots of people are careless. I left my lens cap on the ground yesterday after putting it there on purpose for scale in a photo.

>  You're not thinking Scott.  [B-24 / sextant box]

Dang -- you've caught on to my secret. I'll have to disguise it better from now on.

> Maybe not so easy.  Yachts and lifeboats tend to float better than
> airplanes. The Norwich City lifeboat washed ashore and was found (and
> photographed) in the bushes by the New Zealand survey team.

OK. But that doesn't mean that every floating object to ever come ashore is still there. A hypothetical castaway's craft, whatever it was, could easily have just floated away again. Or gone unnoticed by future westerners on the island (as Tighar hypothesizes the Electra did).

> My comments to Ted apply here.

They do, but it's still tough for me to get past this one. It seems more likely to me that if the Electra was there, that it was washed off the reef before the colonization. The reason it wasn't found, and colonial artifacts made from it do not turn up, is because it wasn't there.

>> It's downright weird that all the clearly identifiable plane parts
>> trace back to
>> a plane that never was on the island.
>
> Why so weird?

Maybe I should have said "ironic." It's ironic that, in the search for plane parts, they keep turning up. Yet they keep being parts of the wrong plane -- one that never was there. Its perfectly reasonable that its parts got there via interisland trading.

In a separate post, reg. the Lambrecht search, Ric wrote:

>Because we have far more information that he had.
>- We know that there should have been no signs of recent habitation on
>Gardner.  Lambrecht didn't know that.
>- We know that he was not going to find the plane on any of the other
>islands he still had to search. Lambrecht didn't know that.
>- We know that the Lexington Group was not going to find the plane or a
>life raft floating in the ocean. Lambrecht didn't know that.
>- We know that there was a castaway on Gardner island whose partial
>skeleton would be found three years later. Lambrecht didn't know that.
>- We know that later inhabitants of the island would tell stories about
>an airplane being there.  Lambrecht didn't know that.

I would quibble with the first and last points. Lambrecht is the one who said "signs of recent habitation." He was in a better position at the time than we are today to judge how recent that may have been, and judge the best course of action. "Recent" doesn't mean "present." But how "recent" he meant is up in the air (and I credit your efforts to figure that out based on his writing about what he saw on other islands).

I'm getting suspicious of the stories. There are tons of AE stories all over the Pacific, and none of them pan out. It seems reasonable to suspect that the stories could have originated with the fact that there was in fact plane wreckage on the island -- the colonists brought it there. Over time, stories have a way of shape-shifting.

And, finally -

>The briefest visit ashore would reveal the presence of rats and crabs that
>look like something out of King Kong."

Eeew! Nobody told me about the rats! Actually, just out of curiosity and not really related to AE . . . Anybody got any idea when the rats arrived? They wouldn't be indigenous there, and I would guess that they stowed away in the luggage and stores the colonists brought. Just a guess, though.

Best,
-SW
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:18:12
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Achilles and Nauru receptions

I know that the time comparisons of the receptions from the above will be in your post loss analysis, but I was looking for an advanced opinion. Both receptions were received "post loss".

The Achilles reception of the " dashes" , apparently in response to Itasca's request, was at 0604Z or 6:34pm Itasca time, 2 July. The Nauru reception of the unintelligible voice that "sounded similar" to the voice heard the night before (paraphrasing) was received by a VKT operator at about 6:30 pm, 3 July, Nauru date/time. [ 2 July Itasca date] Mrs Garcia also reported hearing a voice on 3 July, but reported no time.

Or do I have the Nauru time reception wrong? I think that the VKT operator heard the signal on 6210, but Achilles heard it on 3105

Of course if they were hearing the same signal, assuming the times were correctly reported, it would be significant.

LTM,
Ron Bright
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:03:55
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Ric's theory

Another thought for the two kinds of corrugated iron at the 7 site.

Suppose the colonists need to build a water collection device, and they have at their disposal some "recent" or new sheets and some old ones from Arundel's timeframe.  They bring it all over to the site, and then determine that the older sheets aren't useful for whatever reason, and then discard them in place, using the newer ones.

Similarly, they use the old sheets (available from Arundel's time) until new sheets arrive with the water tank (via ship), and they construct a better collection device, and discard the old system with older sheeting, letting it lie in place.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:04:14
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Dave Bush asks:

> Is there any possibility that what you found there were pieces blown
> to the site by a storm, not carried there by any human endeavor?

No possibility at all.

> Do you know for sure how many sheets of iron were at the 7 site, or
> are you just guessing?

As I said, Tom King made a very rough estimate.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:04:30
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Dave Bush said:

> I doubt that they brought any great store of such things, nor had them
> readily available.

Do you have any information at all upon which to base your opinion?
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:05:03
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Tom King writes:

> One problem with the idea that the castaways dragged the corrugated to
> the site (besides what I think is its inherent implausibility), or for that
> matter with the idea that ANYBODY dragged them in before 1940 is that
> Gallagher didn't report seeing them.

I'll concede that Gallagher's failure to mention them is a problem but I find Tom's theory just as implausible as he finds mine.  It happens not infrequently. That's one reason we work so well together.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:05:59
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Mystery  message

Angus says:

> This is simply the same report. Ray Havens was from Conrad Montana.

You may be right but rechecking the New York Herald Tribune of July 9 it says that Ray Havens is a "radio amateur" and describes him as a "creamery worker" in "Great Falls, Montana"(not Ohio - I remembered that wrong).  There is a small town called Conrad about 60 miles north of Great Falls.  Seems like a long commute in 1937.

What is your source for Ray Havens being from Conrad, Montana?
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:07:35
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Ric's theory

> From Dennis McGee
>
>   I apologize for the disjointed presentation, but using the steel
> sheets for a water collection devise raise more questions than it
> answers.

Actually, using corrugated steel sheets or even corrugated iron roofing sheets to collect rainwater would not sound too far fetched.  20 sheets of corrugated iron roofing would be quite simple to shift, except for getting it across the channel into the lagoon.

The corrugated iron Ric has described would most likely be used for external cladding because well before 1890 Lysaght had already produced much lighter stuff for roofing, and it was a whole lot easier to transport by ship, as well as being a lot cheaper.

Arundel had access to masses of the stuff from his Australian office, and freight via Burns Philp, who also appear to have shipped heaps of the light gauge corrugated roofing around the Pacific.

20 sheets of heavy gauge corrugated iron really has me baffled even to the point of wondering why it was on the island at all.

The only logical reason I can see for it to exist is as a liner to form up an underground water cistern.  The thin stuff would probably rust out too quickly.  Obviously, though there is no way of knowing.  It just seems an odd material to have on the island at all.

Th' WOMBAT

--
We don't use Windows - so You get fewer Viruses.
Mepis Linux, Mozilla and OpenOffice.org.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:08:01
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

Of course they just might have landed the Electra on the reef flat near the 7 site, and people who say they think they saw aircraft wreckage may have got the location mixed up (bearing in mind they were children at the time).

Just a thought..  (A silly one, but a thought nevertheless).

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:08:48
From:         Jack Clark
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

he report I mentioned is attributed to no newspaper or wire service.  It is date lined Honolulu, July 9. I will quote the passage verbatim.

> Officials at the headquarters of the coastguard division are
> unconvinced of the authenticity of any of the messages supposed to
> have been transmitted by the fliers after the one sent on Friday
> afternoon while the plane was still in the air, stating that they only
> had enough petrol to last half an hour and there was no land in sight.
>      But they consider that the most interesting report received by an
> amateur, although they doubt whether  it was sent by the fliers , is
> one received by Mr Conrad Mentant, who heard a man's voice saying:-
> "All's well,"  then later :-"Position 173 west longitude and 5 south
> latitude."
>
> A journalist listened on another set and heard ostensibly  the same
> voice but it was indistinguishable.      The position given intersects
> the spot where, it is now believed, the fliers descended.

That appeared in The Melbourne  Argus newspaper on Saturday 10th July 1937  page 13.

    Jack Clark    #2564
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:10:53
From:         Jack Clark
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

Angus I don't know if the archives at The State Library are built using optical character reading. I used a roll of micro film fed into a reader and coupled to a printer. Judging by the condition of the boxes holding the film rolls I would say they were done some years ago. If  optical character printing is a fairly new thing I would say the archives were not done that way.  I hope this does not start an off topic thread.

Jack Clark  #2564

********************************

Sounds like a standard microfilm setup, where the actual newspaper was
photographed. I can't imagine archiving newspapers using OCR.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:13:08
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

> From Ric
> Our information comes from Arundel's handwritten notes in his journal
> which I saw on microfilm in Tarawa. There was no "village".  This was
> not a settlement, it was a work camp. The notation says,
>
> 1 store house - 8 sheets iron
> 1 dwelling - 12 sheets iron
> 1 cook house - 6 sheets iron
>
> Several forumites are already
> working on what a sheet of iron was in 1890. That's important. Exactly what
> were the dimensions? How were the buildings constructed? was the iron used
> just for roofs, or for walls as well? How were the iron sheets altered in
> this construction? (If at all.) What I want to know is how many of the 26
> iron sheets were used in the construction of the settlement and how those
> sheets that were used may have been cut, sized, bent, etc. during
> construction.

Here's a corrugated iron house with around 12 sheets used for one side of the main pitch of the roof.

http://www.goodearl.com.au/central_australia/town2.jpg

That would be nothing at all like the building Arundel would construct.

Give you a bit of an idea of how versatile the stuff is.  We still use it these days, and whole houses are again being built from it, but they look a little nicer, and these days it is probably steel, although it is still called corrugated "iron".

My own roof here in town is corrugated iron, and until recently I had a stack corrugated iron sheets dating back to about 1900 lying in my yard.   I bought them when the sugar mill (which was constructed from corrugated iron, and commenced operations in 1906) closed.  They were from the original part of the building.  I got rid of them shortly before I sold my country house.  Heavier than the current sheets (about twice as thick, but I could easily drag four twelve foot by three foot sheets at once on my own.

I put this page together to show some examples of what you get out of "standard size" corrugated iron sheets, to help answer the
____________
>> What I want to know is how many of the 26
>> iron sheets were used in the construction of the settlement and how those
>> sheets that were used may have been cut, sized, bent, etc. during
>> construction.
_____________
question.

Bear in mind that in 1890, there were several standards, and some of the corrugations on the very heavy iron were six inch pitch.  The standard for the last 100 years has been and still is, three inch pitch.

http://www.rossdevitt.com/corrugated/corrugated.html

Anyway, we still use heaps of the stuff every day - it's just getting a little more high tech over the last 10 years.

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:21:51
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Conjecture, hypothesis, theory

There are people that study rat colonization of Pacific islands.  They could have come as stowaways with the Arundel planters.  Some people think that the ancient Polynesians intentionally brought them along as a food supply. Fresh meat in a convenient size!

Daniel Postellon TIGHAR#2263

> Eeew! Nobody told me about the rats!
> Actually, just out of curiosity and not really related to AE . . .
> Anybody got any idea when the rats arrived? They wouldn't be indigenous
> there, and I would guess that they stowed away in the luggage and stores the
> colonists brought. Just a guess, though.
>
> Best,
> -SW
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:22:35
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Achilles and Nauru receptions

July 2nd Nauru time, before she was due to land, and July 3, time unstated.
Dan Postellon
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:38:35
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Achilles and Nauru receptions

Ron Bright asks:

> The Nauru reception of the unintelligible voice that "sounded similar" to
> the voice heard the night before (paraphrasing) was received by a VKT operator
> at about 6:30 pm, 3 July, Nauru date/time. [ 2 July Itasca date] Mrs Garcia
> also reported hearing a voice on 3 July, but reported no time.
> Or do I have the Nauru time reception wrong?

You have the Nauru time wrong.  Nauru heard signals at 08:31Z, 08:43Z, and 08:54Z on July 3rd.  Aboard Itasca the times were 21:01, 21:13 and 21:24 respectively on July 2nd.  In other words, the Nauru receptions were heard roughly two and a half hours after Achilles heard the exchange between Itasca and some other station.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:43:01
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Theoretical problem

>As I said, Tom King made a very rough estimate.

VERY rough.  The main concentration corrugated-on-the-ground (as distinguished from a smaller concentration near the tank, which clearly represented a structure that drained water into the tank -- long collapsed, of course) began near the SE edge of the area we cleared, and extended back into  the Scaevola. We bushwhacked in and thought we'd identified a SE edge to  the deposit, but I wouldn't stake much on it; it could extend much farther than  we thought, and it could be discontinuous.  Some of the sheets also  appeared to overlap one another, and some may have been piled several deep --  understand that they're all virtually entirely reduced to rust, and very  difficult to tease apart.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:43:52
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Ric/Tom,

I think we need a little more detail on what you folks have seen;
      * size of the area in  question?
      * orientation to compass rose coordinates?
      * is the area relatively flat or sloped?  If  sloped in which direction?
      * is there any indication of liquid drainage along  the periphery of the area e.g. coconut oil, clam juices, fish stuff, etc.,  from a drying process?
      * is the vegetation in the area e.g. under the  sheets stunted compared to the surrounding vegetation?
      * what are the distances to other site features  e.g. the campfire pit, pools were fish are abundant, clam (or other shell fish)  beds, sea shore and the lagoon shore?  The shoe parts found by  TIGHAR?
      * are there pathways leading to/from the  area?
      * do the sheets of metal (?) seem to have been laid  side by side and/or end to end i.e. can you make out seams of the sheeting  material?
      * does some of the residual material (rust) appear  to be thicker in some areas e.g. like stacked sheets?
      * is there evidence to suggest that the material  was corrugated vs flat sheet?
      * do we have any photos of the area that could be  posted on the website?  Could you post an overhead sketch of the area  showing surrounding (if any) features?

Finally, do you have any other specific questions or puzzles you have that we can work on?  This one surely got the forum to focus on the AE puzzle rather that rambling on about the size of a 55 gallon drum, etc.

Ted Campbell
************************************************************************
From Ric

Much of the information you seek is readily available on the website. For starters try:
http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/23_SevenSite/23_SevenSite.html
and
http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/33_SevenMysteries/33_SevenMysteries.html

Once you have acquainted yourself with the information that's there you'll be in a position to ask informed questions.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 11:14:42
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

Jack Clark quotes the Melbourne newspaper article:

>> Officials at the headquarters of the coastguard division are
>> unconvinced of the authenticity of any of the messages supposed to
>> have been transmitted by the fliers after the one sent on Friday
>> afternoon while the plane was still in the air, stating that they
>> only had enough petrol to last half an hour and there was no land in
>> sight.      But they consider that the most interesting report
>> received by an amateur, although they doubt whether  it was sent by
>> the fliers , is one received by Mr Conrad Mentant, who heard a man's
>> voice saying:- "All's well,"  then later :-"Position 173 west
>> longitude and 5 south latitude."
>>
>> A journalist listened on another set and heard ostensibly  the same
>> voice but it was indistinguishable.      The position given
>> intersects the spot where, it is now believed, the fliers descended.

Thanks Jack.  Curiouser and curiouser. The article is correct in that, by July 9, the Coast Guard - having been thoroughly embarrassed by the "281 north" debacle - was pooh-poohing all of the alleged post-loss receptions.  Their feeling that the "All's well....." message was, nonetheless, "the most interesting" was apparently due to the described position being near "the spot where, it is now believed, the fliers descended" (the Colorado's planes, in fact, searched Gardner that day).  Ironically, the decision to search the land areas in the Phoenix Group was based upon the presumed validity of the post-loss messages. The Navy's intention to search the Phoenix Group was well publicized so there's a good possibility that the message was a hoax. If you want to be believed, tell somebody something they already think might be true. What makes no sense at all is the bit about a journalist listening on another set.  What journalist?  Where? What other set? Very strange.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 19:08:01
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Achilles/dashes on 9 July

You may already have this report of dashes from the Achilles in your post loss msg, but if not, here it is.

In researching the origin of the Achilles alleged reception of AE, I found a book written by the Jack Harker, a telegrapher on the Achilles in July 1937. "HMNZS ACHILLES" chronicles the travels of the Achilles during the 1936-37 period in the South Pacific. [ I can't find the date of publish as of yet, Harker was in his 80s in 2003}

Of immediate interest is his recollection of the Earhart incident. He recalled that on 2 July the American monitoring stations received a msg from Earhart in morse " ' circling...cannot see Island...fuel running low.' ". Navy Office Wellington "ordered us to set a continuous listening watch on Amelia's radio frequency". [ The msg Harker refers to was in voice,not morse] This began on 2 July.

He contined: "Our course through the Tokelaus and Line Islands was taking us around the circumference of a sector whose two 900 mile radii met at Howland Island; watch after watch logged the receiver to be working correctly, and recorded heavy burst of atmospheric static- but no signals from Amelia. Powerful US coast stations were logged, asking her to make a sequence of longs on her morse key if she was hearing them. No replies; only intervals of silence shattered by electrical disturbances...."

He related that the Achilles steamed past Starbuck and Malden Islands the following week, and stopped at Christmas Islands. "Our sparkers were tiring of the dreary listening watch still kept for the aviatrix...but US planes were still assisting ...in the search. Strong transmissions still called her by morse, and spoken msgs asking her to make longs. But listening periods were logged monotonously silent."

But on 9 July, just off Fanning Island, when the afternoon watch logged the customary calls to Earhart, the operators " hair stood on end. Distinct from bursts of atmospherics, he heard a string of evenly -spaced longs. 'Dahhh Dahhh Dahhhh Dahhh...DahhhXXXXXXXXXhhh Dahhh..." Then more storm interference and overpowering US coast stations blotting out the course notes of those faint signals.

"Incredible! the Signal Officer interrogated".  The operator stood firm and could not be"talked out of hearing those signals".  "Are you certain about this reception," asked Capt Glennie.

Achilles sailed at 1830, 9 July to mount a hopeless search, he continued. The ACHILLES notified Pearl Navy Station NPM and passed on Capt Glennie's report and "stirred a hornets next among Americas news media."

Harker said they received financial offers for the exclusive rights to the story of a rescue of Amelia. The weak transmisssions were never heard again. All they had, he said, was a log entry.

ACHILLES then made their way to Honolulu arriving 13 July.

Of course these are anecdotal recollections from Harker and I don't know when he wrote the manuscript. The website shows a nice photo of the Achilles.

I don't know what to make of this 9 July dash reception vs the clear msg from Tutuila to ITASCA and COMSECHAW that the ACHILLES heard dashes some ten hours after AE's last.

Another telegrapher aboard the Achilles, as reported by another AE researcher, said the ACHILLES never received any dashes or signals from AE. I will report on that later. All very strange. It may relate to the 9 July mysterious signals.

LTM,
Ron Bright

[1] Go to google and type in Jack Harker. The webpage is no longer valid.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 20:13:21
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Seven site

For Ted Campbell --

Well, I'll agree with Ric that you need to look at the website, and I'll also refer you to the account in AE's Shoes, The Book, Updated Edition, which should be on your neighborhood bookstore's shelves by now (or  next week).  But that said:

>* size of the area  in  question?

Can't really say for sure, but the clearly recorded corrugated  covers something like 10 square meters.  That's pretty surely only a  portion of the overall deposit.  The area we cleared on the Seven Site  in 2001 covered maybe 400 square meters, but the site -- that is, the area with  human-created features of various kinds -- is certainly larger.

>* orientation to compass rose  coordinates?

Ridge runs NW-SE, corrugated long dimension almost N-S.

>* is the area relatively flat or sloped?   If  sloped in which
>direction?

Sloped gently to SW, drops off pretty steeply a bit to the SW  of the corrugated.

>* is there any indication of liquid drainage  along  the periphery
>of the area e.g. coconut oil, clam juices,  fish stuff, etc.,  from a
>drying process?

Not that we've identified, though there are water drainage channels running in various directions, and a couple of pieces of iron or steel channeling (U-shaped cross-section), sort of like heavy gutter pipe but  flatter, were found in the Scaevola SE of the recorded corrugated  concentration. But they were nested one inside the other, not arranged in  linear fashion. 

>* is the vegetation in the area e.g. under  the  sheets stunted
>compared to the surrounding  vegetation?

Under the sheets?  The sheets are reduced entirely to rust on the ground. No apparent effect on the vegetation now, but of course there may  have been in the past.

>* what are the distances to other site  features ... e.g. the  campfire pit,

There are five recorded fire "pits;" the closest is maybe 5 meters from the edge of the corrugated, but it's hard to tell because the rust has been spread around in some areas (by our clearing operations, among other things), so the edge is not always apparent.

>** pools were fish are  abundant,

There's a pool with sometimes abundant fish at the Loran site, about a quarter mile SE of the Seven Site, but there are plenty of fish in the lagoon  and in tide pools on the ocean reef, just NE and SW of the site.

> *** clam (or other shell  fish)  beds,

Tridacna in the lagoon, hundred meters or so through the bush to  the SW.

> ** sea shore and the  lagoon shore?

Without hauling out the map, I'd say a hundred meters or so to the lagoon shore, a bit less to the ocean shore.

> ** The shoe parts found  by  TIGHAR?

Over a mile, across the lagoon.

* are there pathways leading to/from the  area?

Not at the moment that we know of; we had to hack our way in.  Re. earlier trails, see
http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/33_SevenMysteries/trails.html

>* do the sheets of metal (?) seem to have been  laid  side by side
>and/or end to end i.e. can you make out seams  of the sheeting
>material?

Hard to be sure, but it doesn't appear to have been laid rigidly side-by-side; there's some overlap, and the sheets are sometimes skewed relative  to one another.

>* does some of the residual material (rust)  appear  to be thicker
>in some areas e.g. like stacked  sheets?

I think so, but it's not consistent.

>* is there evidence to suggest that the  material  was corrugated vs
>flat sheet?

For the most part, at least, clearly corrugated.  However, there's  a lot of just plain rust.

>* do we have any photos of the area that could  be  posted on the web
>site?  Could you post an overhead sketch of  the area  showing
>surrounding (if any) features?

See page 347 in AE's Shoes, updated edition.  The map shows only  the corrugated whose boundaries we were able to plot clearly; it pretty definitely extended farther to the north and SE.

>**  Finally,  do you have any other specific questions or puzzles you
>have that we can work on?  This one surely got the forum to focus on the  AE
>puzzle rather that rambling on about the size of a 55 gallon drum,  etc.

Well, how about identifying artifacts 2-6-S-3A and 3B?  See page  349 in AE's Shoes, Updated Edition, and
http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/help/help.html
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 4 Dec 2004 20:24:17
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Achilles/dashes on 9 July

Ron Bright writes:

> In researching the origin of the Achilles alleged reception of AE, I
> found a book written by the Jack Harker

I'm sure we've been over this before.  Harker's recollections are anecdote and they are totally at odds with the official contemporaneous record.  I see no reason to believe Harker's version of events.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:20:57
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Tom,

I know TIGHAR would have measured this as part of the scientific method.

How thick (in millimetres) were the sheets?  (Not the rust, but the actual pieces of corrugated iron that are not rusted.)

What is the pitch of the corrugations?

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:21:28
From:         Hue Miller
Subject:      Re: Achilles/dashes on 9 July

Some thoughts on these recent posts about postloss receptions:

"All's well".  - Hardly seems to be a message that would be sent by crashed flyers, with no provisions, and probably lost.  ( I had to recall that when the crew of the raft "Kon Tiki" in the Kon Tiki west-east crossing of the Pacific, washed up ashore on a small island, they lugged ashore their portable WW2  U.K. spy-type "B2" radio, the message they sent out repeatedly was "All's well", but - this was a planned event, everything was proceeding according to general plan.)

"Second receiver"- likely a secondary radio receiver somewhat inferior in power to the  main set, perhaps operating off the same antenna.

"Journalist also heard" - puzzling: why would a journalist stay there to maintain the watch over a few days?

"Long dashes heard by radio operators on Harker's ship" - seems to me, that unless worldwide radio silence was observed on 6210 and 3105 for several days after the loss, this could be explained by some Pacific or west coast USA station, either ground station or aircraft in flight, "tuning up" their transmitter, that is, making adjustments for best transmit operation, preparing it,  even if not intending to immediately follow this with transmitting some real message. Many, if not most, of the radio transmitters of the time had no provision for making these necessary adjustments with reduced power - power less than full operational power.
-Hue Miller
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:22:27
From:         Angus Murray
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

Ric says:

> Angus says:
>
>> This is simply the same report. Ray Havens was from Conrad Montana.
>
> You may be right but rechecking the New York Herald Ttribune of July 9
> it says that Ray Havens is a "radio amateur" and describes him as a
> "creamery worker" in "Great Falls, Montana"(not Ohio - I remembered
> that wrong).  There is a small town called Conrad about 60 miles north
> of Great Falls.  Seems like a long commute in 1937.

Oakland Tribune July 8th 1937
I think I know the answer to this. It is indeed the same report. This message was not heard by Ray Havens. In fact it was heard by Ray Havens Conrad (of) Great Falls Montana. Havens was his middle name. The report that Jack found is then from Mr Conrad, Montana.

Regards Angus.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:23:07
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Tom King,

Thanks for your response to my questions.  I am not sure yet if it  will result in some testable idea of how, why and when the sheets were moved there but at least we have more information to work with.

I did look at the web site before sending the questions but the detailed information just wasn't there.  I guess if I were Ric and had worked this problem as long and as hard as he has I too would be a little impatient with questions that have been asked before (albeit maybe by myself and others, but  the answers never written down because it was during a discussion and not part  of a report or journal entry, etc.) and led nowhere.

I've found through experience it is better to provide as much background  and detail surrounding a question asked of others if you want the person(s) to concentrate on finding the answer rather than spending his/her time on weaving through mountains of minutiae that has already been gathered and for logical reasons discounted - it's easy to get so lost in the tangle of available information so as to forget the original question.

Now it's up to me to get the Updated book - Santa's coming - so I can draw  a mental picture of what you guys have seen on site and then add in the details you've provided.  Hopefully, my completed picture will provide a little different perspective that you can evaluate.

On another subject:  In the first book (AE shoes) there is a reference to a Ronson lighter that was found near the 7 site.  What ever became of  it?

I've always wondered how a castaway could keep a fire going without it being seen during fly overs or keep lighting a fresh fire each night/meal with  the tools available on a deserted island.  Seems like you would have to have a bunch of matches, a good rubbing stick, a lens for the sun or other fire instrument to overcome the dampness of the fuel source or in the case of a continuous fire the gathering of sufficient fuel to keep it going.

Ted Campbell
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:39:48
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Seven site

For Ted Campbell

Thanks, Ted.  Re. the lighter: it's in the TIGHAR collection at TIGHAR Central in Wilmington, DE.  The trouble with attributing it to AE & FN is that while it COULD be theirs, it could at least equally well be something left by a Coast Guardsman, maybe traded to a villager for a kanawa box or something.

You're right, of course, that lighting a fire would be an issue. Absent something like a lighter, or matches, a good lens would probably work well in the hot tropical sun.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:24:29
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Ross Devitt asked:

> How thick (in millimetres) were the sheets?  (Not the rust, but the
> actual pieces of corrugated iron that are not rusted.)

There is no way to take such a measurement.  The rusted fragments are nominally 3mm thick.

> What is the pitch of the corrugations?

If you mean the distance from "peak" to "peak", it appears to be about 5cm. The height of corrugations is quite shallow, being only about 7 mm.

LTM,
ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 12:11:02
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

Angus Murray says:

> Oakland Tribune July 8th 1937
> I think I know the answer to this. It is indeed the same report.
> This message was not heard by Ray Havens. In fact it was heard by Ray Havens
> Conrad (of) Great Falls Montana. Havens was his middle name. The report that
> Jack found is then from Mr Conrad, Montana.

I'm still not clear on how much of this is your own conjecture and how much is documented.

Your source is the July 8th Oakland Tribune.  I don't have that paper. Was there a morning and an evening edition? If the report first appeared in the morning edition on the 8th it was probably heard on the 7th or earlier.  That pushes it back toward the bulk of the post-loss receptions and makes it a bit a more credible.

Did the Oakland paper give the man's name as "Ray Havens Conrad, Great Falls, Montana"?

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 12:11:26
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Ted Campbell asks:

>  In the first book (AE shoes) there is a reference  to a
> Ronson lighter that was found near the 7 site.  What ever became of
> it?

I have it right here.  It was not found anywhere near the Seven Site. We found it (with a metal detector) buried in the beach sand near the village.  There's no particular reason to associate it with Earhart or Noonan.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 12:14:38
From:         Eric Beheim
Subject:      Lighting a candle

Over a year ago, I theorized on this forum that, prior to World War II, it was entirely probable that some Mycroft Holmes-type within the Naval Aviation community who had access to both AE's 157 337 message and Lambrecht's report to the Bureau of Aeronautics Weekly News Letter might well have deduced that AE and FN ended up on Gardner Island. If such a deduction was made, it would probably never have gotten any traction since it was at odds with the Navy's "on the record" conclusions about what happened to AE and FN.

In an effort to test my theory, I contacted Naval Aviation News (the modern-day version of the Bureau of Aeronautics Weekly News Letter.) This resulted in an article that appeared in the September-October 2004 issue.  It can be viewed at:

http://www.history.navy.mil/nan/currentissue/novdec03/searching.pdf

Although heavily edited from the original text, the article  did provide Naval aviators with a basic introduction to TIGHAR's research efforts.  It was my hope that the article might jog someone's memory and turn up some new information that had been stored away, forgotten, in some retired Naval aviator's garage or in some squadron's archives.

In all fairness, I have to report that, to date, nothing of interest has turned up.  If anything does, I will certainly pass it along to Ric and the forum.

LTM (who also never gives up hope)

Eric, Naval Station San Diego
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 12:15:05
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: Seven site

> From: Ted Campbell
>
> ...  In the first book (AE shoes) there is a reference  to a
> Ronson lighter that was found near the 7 site.  What ever became of
> it?

It's at Ric and Pat's house in their Niku Detritus Warehouse. I've seen it and many other artifacts with my own eyes. Ric kind of chokes up when he takes the lighter out of the drawer and talks about how he had hoped it would be the Smoking Gun.  He likes puns like that, you know.  :o(

LTM.
Marty #2359
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 13:28:05
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Marty says:

> Ric kind of chokes up when he takes the lighter out of the
> drawer and talks about how he had hoped it would be the
> Smoking Gun.  He likes puns like that, you know.

It's the puns that choke me up.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 13:28:28
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Please, Marty, let's be accurate:

"Ric and Pat's house" = TIGHAR Central, the World Headquarters.

"Niku Detritus Warehouse" = TIGHAR's well-managed archaeological collection.

LTM (who's picky about these things)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 13:28:47
From:         Ric gillespie
Subject:      Re: Lighting candles

Eric Beheim writes:

> In all fairness, I have to report that, to date, nothing of interest
> has turned up.  If anything does, I will certainly pass it along to
> Ric and the forum.

Much appreciated.  It's a good article.

Randy Jacobson has also cast lighted candles upon the waters with an article appearing in the latest issue of Naval History magazine.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 14:40:37
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Achilles/dashes on 9 July

I know how much you love anecdotal recollections made years later, but this is another version.

In response to Don Neumans request, a Dave Robertson of New Zealand, interviewed Jack Williamson, a former radio operator aboard the Achilles in July 1937.   He was assigned telegraphy during the time frame before and after the Earhart disappearance.

According to Robertson's post of 3-12-03, "bottom line...Mr Williamson insists there were 'never' any signals that were identified as coming from Earhart or ITASCA at any time!" No radio logs were available as apparently they were trashed after the war.

Robertson commented that apparently the radio room personnel on Achilles were not highly trained or skilled in receiving voice communications wilth their equipment somewhat specialized for handling the more commonplace CW code on 500 kcs.

Radio experts can figure that out.

Williamson, continued Robertson, didn't agree with Harkers version that signals, namely long dashes , were received by Achilles on the 9th of July.

So we have contrary recollections, and contrary to what I would guess was an official msg from Achilles to Tutulia , signed by the CO, on 3 July.

Robertson believed that Jack Williamson was the "salt of the earth" and fully competent even in his 80s. Williamson did add the Achilles picked up a lot of Japanese traffic after AE went down and a lot of meaningless garble,etc., but remained quite sure that as the DF operator aboard the Achilles he would have been aware of any signals allegedly coming from Earhart.

A couple of other "sparks" were identified, but as of yet none interviewed.

As you say, unless evidence to the contrary develops, the Achilles msg of hearing dashes trumps the anecdotal recollections.

I previously wrote that the Achilles and Itasca got together and resolved the question. See Elgen Long, page 219,   and his cites of the Itasca Radio Transcripts Earhart Flight,p 52 National Archives, and page 58. I do not have those cites available.

LTM,
Ron Bright
Bremerton Wa
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 15:17:09
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Tom King clarifies:

> "Ric and Pat's house" = TIGHAR Central, the World Headquarters.
>
> "Niku Detritus Warehouse" = TIGHAR's well-managed archaeological
> collection.

For those who have never been here (which is most everybody) and for those who may be curious -

TIGHAR Central, the World Headquarters, is a very ordinary-looking suburban split-level house in a very middle-class neighborhood - but appearances can be deceiving.  When we bought the place 12 years ago we knocked out the wall between the garage and family room to create a good-sized office. We beefed up the wiring to support our various computers and printers and added a whole bunch of phone lines.  One of the three upstairs bedrooms became a library and a downstairs back-bedroom became a mail room until we needed more storage space for the well-managed archaeological  collection.  Now another upstairs bedroom is the TIGHAR mailroom and the former mailroom is dedicated to artifact storage and an under-construction video editing suite.  Pat and I live in what's left of the house - basically the kitchen, the living room/dining area, and two bedrooms.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 15:17:26
From:         Carl Peltzer
Subject:      Japanese naval code

After reading the different areas today I wanted to put this idea in for discussion.

We know the US Navy read the naval codes during the war but we also know that they were trying long before the start of hostilities and it got me to wonder if they were sucessful way back in 1937 at all.

Are there was any files regarding our search that could be found just to clear that piece of the puzzle for the last time.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 15:39:05
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Where's the horse live that we all hear about?  In the kitchen?

>  From Ric
>
> Tom King clarifies:
>
>> "Ric and Pat's house" = TIGHAR Central, the World Headquarters.
>>
>> "Niku Detritus Warehouse" = TIGHAR's well-managed archaeological
>> collection.
>
> For those who have never been here (which is most everybody) and for
> those who may be curious -
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 16:03:14
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: SEVEN SITE

Ok, I can't use a micrometer on it because of the corrugations, and I can't find my dial vernier, but it appears the stuff there is not "standard" corrugated iron, and is almost certainly not roofing iron:

Just went out and had a look at half a dozen sheets dating to around 1940 that are outside on the roof of my carport.  The sheets are standard corrugated iron that are on a structure (the roof of the car port in my house here in town) that shows up on aerial photographs of the place in the 1940's.

The sheets would be around 1/2mm thick.  originally it would have been measured in thousandths of an inch.  When I find the dial caliper I can give you more idea.  They are thinnner than the sheets I got when the old sugar mill was demolished.

The pitch is 3" (7.5cm) which, with a few small variations, is the pitch of almost all corrugated iron supplied for roofing and most other building in Australia since 1850(ish).

There were other pitches, and 6" (15cm) was used in some buildings, but not so extensively.  If you looked at the pictures on the link I posted, you will have seen what I meant.

Corrugated iron is still the most used roofing material here in this part of Australia, and although the pitch hasn't changed on standard sheets, the thickness has reduced with different coatings available.

My iron appears to have been hot dip galvanised.  Another name for it has been galvanised iron in the past, but corrugated iron is its main name.

The stuff was used to build most of Australia, with entire houses built out of it.  When I was young, almost every house had at least one corrugated iron water tank to collect rainwater off the corrugated iron roof.  In many places this water was the entire water supply for the year.  We still have places like that...

There are places where the iron is just beginning to rust on my carport, in particular, where a piece of iron with a damaged edge is resting on another piece.

One of the interesting things about working with  corrugated iron is that you must not damage the edge of the sheet when dragging it around.    Once the zinc coating is damaged, rust forms quickly and eats its way under the coating, chewing out the iron from the inside.

In the spots where one sheet of iron is beginning to rust and the overlapping sheet is not, the small bits of rust on my sheets appear to be already over 1.5mm thick, and growing.  The stuff sort of flakes and expands with the salt air.

Anyway, we do have 2" (5cm) corrugated iron, but it seems an odd material to be on Niku.  It is rarely used for roofing and is mostly used as a decrative iron.

These sheets are "standard" 10 foot by 3 foot sheets, but of course, the mills can put out any length they like.

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 16:03:47
From:         Reed Riddle
Subject:      Re: Seven Site

> From Randy Jacobson
>
> Where's the horse live that we all hear about?  In the kitchen?

Are you talking about many of the dead horses that get beaten around here from time to time?  :)

Reed
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 16:04:08
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Achilles/dashes 9 July

Ron Bright writes:

> According to Robertson's post of 3-12-03, "bottom line...Mr Williamson
> insists there were 'never' any signals that were identified as coming from
> Earhart or ITASCA at any time!"
>
> So we have contrary recollections, and contrary to what I would guess was
> an official msg from Achilles to Tutulia , signed by the CO, on 3 July.

No we don't.  Mr. Williamson is absolutely correct.  Achilles' radio operator didn't now who he was hearing.  He just heard an odd exchange between two unidentified stations, one of which gave Earhart's call sign.  Achilles passed that information along to the U.S. Coast Guard.

Elgen Long (page 219) says:

"The HMS Achilles, radio call GVBK, was a British cruiser on a good-will visit in the Pacific, presently en route from Tutuila, American Samoa, to Honolulu.  After many messages and much information was exchanged between Itasca and Achilles, they determined that it was the Itasca that the Achilles had heard."

Elgen is wrong.  For one thing, Achilles was not " a British cruiser on a good-will visit in the Pacific".  Achilles, at that time, was part of the Royal New Zealand Navy and is properly referred to as HMNZS Achilles.  It's not clear why she was steaming from Samoa to Hawaii. When Putnam found out that Achilles had heard Earhart's call sign he got all excited and had the Navy ask Achilles to confirm that "ACHILLES GOT CALL LETTERS KHAQQ CLEARLY AND CERTAINLY".  Itasca then advised Coast Guard Hawaiian Section that "CALL RECEIVED BY HMS ACHILLES SENT BY ITASCA".  Hawaiian Section advised San Francisco Division who presumably advised Putnam, but nobody ever advised Achilles.

Although it was resolved, at least among the Coast Guard authorities, that it was Itasca whom had Achilles heard sending Earhart's call sign,  it was never determined who it was that Achilles, and Itasca for that matter, had heard replying to Itasca's calls.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 16:04:32
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Japanese Naval Code

Carl Peltzer asks

> We know the US Navy read the naval codes during the war but we also  know
> that they were trying long before the start of hostilities and it got me to
> wonder if they were sucessful way back in 1937 at all.
>
>   Are there was any files regarding our search that could be found just to
> clear that piece of the puzzle for the last time.

Oh no,......we're not digging up that dead horse.

Search the forum archives for previous pointless discussions of Japanese naval codes.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 16:04:47
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Randy Jacobson asks:

>Where's the horse live that we all hear about?  In the kitchen?

My Thoroughbred and Pat's Morgan live at a boarding barn in southeastern Pennsylvania about a half-hour drive from here.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 18:34:29
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Seven site

For Th' Wombat

The trouble with the corrugated at the Seven Site is that it's almost entirely reduced to rust, and what few little fragments aren't have bulged and swollen and become sort of pimpled by oxidation.  When it's lying on the  ground you can see that it's corrugated, with a pitch that's pretty much like every other piece of corrugated metal I've ever seen, but there are no large pieces to collect (or at least, we haven't collected any), and the thickness is highly variable and probably bears little resemblance to the  original.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 18:34:05
From:         Jackie Tharp
Subject:      Re: Lighting a candle

To Eric :

Your article in the Navy Newsletter is excellent.  I especially like the way you did the graphics.  Well done...

Jackie 2440
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 18:32:48
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: TIGHAR Central

>  From Ric
>
> My Thoroughbred and Pat's Morgan live at a boarding barn
> in southeastern Pennsylvania about a half-hour drive from here.

It's a great treat to watch Ric's horse groom him and shake him down for peppermints.

The guest bed at TIGHAR Central is in the Climate Controlled Archeological Storage Center (known to its friends as "the debris field").

LTM.
Marty #2359
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 18:59:36
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: TIGHAR Central

Marty says:

> It's a great treat to watch Ric's horse groom him
> and shake him down for peppermints.

He's smarter, better looking and far better bred than I am, but I don't let you guys talk about your airplanes, model airplanes, muscle cars and ham radios on the forum so it's only fair that I not burn bandwidth bragging on one of the greatest equine personalities in the history of Western Civilization.

Back to Earhart......
LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:17:07
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: TIGHAR Central

Ric said:  "TIGHAR Central, the World Headquarters, is a very ordinary-looking suburban split-level house . . ."

Not according to TIGHAR's "competitors."   They'll tell you that beneath the house is a maze of secret tunnels with rooms jammed full of an assortment of devices from the "black arts."  High on the list is an enormous bank of computers given by Steve Jobs of MacIntosh fame that is used to track all of the movements of the non-TIGHAR believers.  And whenever one of them gets close to the True Secret TIGHAR will disrupt and misdirect the investigation.  That is why none of them have yet succeeded.

Next to the computers is an underground heliport for the black helicopters.

There are also the necessary laboratories for experimental archeology, remote viewing research, palmistry interpretation, advanced phrenology instruction, and the culinary art of "How to Serve Your Fellow Human Being."  Now, that is only the first basement level . . . .

LTM, who admired humble digs
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:28:04
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Seven Site

Thanks Tom,

The early description sounded like some sort of special building material created exclusively for gardner and almost impossible to take ashore across the reef or via the landing channel.

Except for the apparent abnormal pitch, we may have narrowed it down to otherwise "normal" corrugated iron sheets.  These sheets were  transported in "packs" but I can't remember how many sheets to a pack.

Back then however, lots of things were packaged byt the dozen.  You ordered roofing screws and nails by the "gross", which was twelve dozen (still did when I was young).

It may be possible you had two packs of steel at the site, but I'll have to do some more snooping.

What used to be a "standard" 10 foot by 3 foot sheet of corrugated iron (which despite its name has been corrugated steel for quite a long time)  at today's thickness of around half a millimetre, weight pretty close to 10 kilograms per sheet.

26 sheets = 260kg, if my math is correct, almost 590lb.

At my old place, the "new" sheets were around 20 years old and heavier than today's.  They were around 12kg each.

The old sheets of corrugateed iron I had from the sugar mill may have been iron rather than steel, but it is hard to tell.  They were considerably thicker and heavier though, and I would estimate by the difference that they weighed a good 18kg a sheet.

I could certainly drag them about 3 or 4 at a time. Around 70kg.

Anyway, the only thing I don't get is the weird pitch.  2" is very uncommon - but certainly available.  It was not common building material, so I wonder how it ended up on Niku?

Did you get the impression the sheets were 6, 8 or 10 feet long? (Standard pack lengths - with 10 being most common for shipping).

Did they look to be around 3 or 4 feet wide? (The two usual standard widths.  3 feet wide for one person to handle. A comfortable arm's span while still able to carry.  4 feet wide for handling by two people).

Hope some of this and those photos helps.

Oh.  My carport here is covered using seven 10 foot sheets.  The car port covers around 10 foot by around 20 foot.  Enough for one car.

That might suggest that perhaps Arundel's structures as mentioned in the diary were open on two or three sides.  Certainly ok for a cook house, and probably likely for accommodation because in that climate one would probably only wall around the bottom to keep some of the rats and big ass latro out.

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:28:34
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: TIGHAR Central

> From Dennis McGee
> "How to Serve Your Fellow Human
> Being."

"Would you like fries with that?"

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 2004 20:25:00
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Seven site

For Th' Wombat

Since the sheets were lying together and overlapping it was hard to be sure about sizes, but I did come to some reasonably well-supported conclusions, and recorded them; I just don't have the notes in front of me at the moment, and won't have until I get back from a trip later this week and can look in what laughingly pass for my files.  My overall impression, confirmed by comparison with complete and not very rusted sheets of corrugated in the  village, was that we were looking at very ordinary, run-of-the-mill stuff in  terms of both size and pitch.  Incidentally, in the village there are also sheets of corrugated asbestos; Gallagher's cookhouse is made of it.  Quite indestructible.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:40:59
From:         Scott White
Subject:      Re: Seven site iron

I'm having a hard time working up much interest in connecting the roofing material to AE and FN. But for those who are . . .

During the 1970s nostalgia fad, somebody reprinted a Sears catalogue originally released around 1900 (give or take ca. 10 years). It had all kinds of stuff in it, including a house you buy as a kit. They would ship it to you via rail. Those catalogues aren't too hard to find in used book stores. Maybe someone on this list has one in the attic. It could be that Sears sold corrugated iron roofing. Also could be that the catalogue listed shipping weights. Of course this wouldn't be the actual stuff that was shipped to Gardner Island, but it might give an idea of the type of material commonly available in that era.
Just trying to be helpful.

Best,
-SW
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:41:36
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Seven site

> From Tom King
> Incidentally, in the village there are also  sheets of
> corrugated asbestos; Gallagher's cookhouse is made of it.  Quite
> indestructible.

Yep, another thing we still have here.  With the new laws it is difficult to replace it too.  It is classed as hazardous material.

The Asbestos sheeting was generally used in places where the temperature needed to be kept down, so Gallagher's cook house sounds about right. It has much better insulating materials than corrugated skillet.

Anyway, if this discussion has narrowed the material down to standard sheets of the old fashoned thick corrugated iron/steel.  By 1890 it could have been either.

There's a very interesting 12 page article on the stuff here:

http://www.heritage.nsw.gov.au/docs/warr_a.pdf

As I said, more than 90% of buildings in the city I live in are roofed with what is still called corrugated iron, even though it has probably really been steel since around 1940.

Something I remembered after the last posting was that whenever we got corrugated iron off transport, it was done up in a package of sheets  tied together that two men could lift, then there were some timber battens separating those from the next package of the same number of sheets, then another few battens separating the next lot.

A number of these packages made up what I've been referring to as the "pack" of sheets.  What I think you may have at the 7 site is two of the smaller packages.  Only guessing though.

The castaway could have easily moved one sheet at a time.  I wondered about getting them across the lagoon opening, then remembered the 7 site is at the other end of the island, so they could drag them around the ocean shore.

One person could drag 4 sheets until their arms began to ache, then drop one sheet and continue with 3, then drop another and drag 2 and so on. If they did that for say 6 trips they would have a small stash of sheets around that shore.  All they then have to do is repeat the process from the first stash, and they eventually have a big stash of sheets close to the 7 site.

Bearing in mind I have handled this stuff in the tropics, i can say that it would have to be done early in the morning, as the sheets heat up incredibly in the sun, and the heat transfers to the edges where you hold them very quickly.  After a couple of hours in the mid day sun you can quite literally fry an egg on these sheets.  I have cooked meat for lunch on one.

As much as I like the idea of our castaway being so ambitious, I really don't think it happened, but who knows what a desperate person does in these circumstances.  I suspect that a couple of

I am currently spending weekends on my favourite tropical islands again (now that all the fractures are healing).  We are getting days in the 30+ degrees celsius range again, so I'm starting to do the pretend castaway thing again.

Hmmm.  I just had a visitor who saw what i was writing about.  He thinks he still has the building supplies handbooks from early 1900's, and if he remembers to, he will look up the details of standard sizes and packaging methods for shipping corrugated iron.


Th' WOMBAT

--
We don't use Windows - so You get fewer Viruses.
Mepis Linux, Mozilla and OpenOffice.org.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:43:28
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Lighting a candle

Very nice article, Eric.  An excellent summary!
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:43:47
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: seven site

Here's a little historical info sheet on corrugated iron / galvanized iron which discusses replacing the stuff on heritage listed buildings.

http://www.heritage.vic.gov.au/page.asp?ID=183

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:44:26
From:         Jack Clark
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

Ric, I have today searched the two remaining Melbourne newspapers for July 1937 and cannot find any mention of the elusive Kirkby or his cablegram. I have now covered the four Melbourne papers of the time. The Age, Argus, Sun and Herald. I searched from 2/July to 12/July in all papers. Whoever/whatever Kirkby was he/they did not make it into the papers in Melbourne. I think it must have been someone acting on his own initiative in contacting the US. Navy.

Re the Mentant message previously mentioned I think this gained credance at the time because the position given was in proximity to the NW/ SE line we are all familiar with and which was becoming the focus of attention for the searchers as time went on. Sorry I  have no startling news to pass on so the cable remains a
mystery.

Jack Clark  #2564
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:59:54
From:         Art Rypinski
Subject:      Re: Seven site, corrugated iron

If the hypothesis that the corrugated iron was laid down at the Seven Site by a castaway in 1937-1938 is correct, wouldn't the iron have been noticed by the 1938 New Zealand Survey, which only observed, if memory serves, "a place where it looked as if someone bivouaced for the night."

Further, shouldn't the corrugated iron be clearly visible on the 1939 Bushnell photomosaic?
LTM,

Arthur Rypinski
************************************************************************
From Ric

It was Eric Bevington in October 1937 who saw "a place where it looked as if someone bivouaced for the night."  But he saw that place on Aukeraime which is on the other side of the island from the Seven Site.

None of the various surveys of varying thoroughness (Maude/Bevington in '37; the New Zealanders in '38/'39; the Bushnell surveyors later in '39) is known to have been back in the bush in the vicinity of the Seven Site.  It's a very remote part of the island that seems to have gone unexplored until the discovery of the skull by workers in April 1940.  Our best guess is that the workers were there to cut kanawa wood for the construction of the new Government Station.  Gallagher, at that time, was on Beru in the Gilberts planning to move his PISS headquarters from Sydney Island to Gardner.  Construction foreman Jack Petro was on Gardner fixing a leak in the cistern.  Gallagher sent him a radio message asking if there were 40 kanawa trees on the Gardner that could be cut and sent to the sawmill on Beru for cutting into lumber.  (Kanawa is a rare and highly-prized hardwood.) Jack replied that there was plenty of kanawa on Gardner.  We don't have any messages that talk about the wood actually being cut and sent to Beru but we do know that, ultimately, all of the furniture in the new Government Rest House on Gardner was made from kanawa wood.  We also know that there were kanawa trees growing near the site where the skull was found, so it seems like a pretty good guess that the skull was found during a kanawa cutting expedition.

As for the various aerial photos taken of the area during that period; the ground at the Seven Site in all of the photos is masked by trees.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:48:37
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: SEven site

Ross Devitt says:

> The castaway could have easily moved one sheet at a time.  I wondered
> about getting them across the lagoon opening, then remembered the 7
> site is at the other end of the island, so they could drag them around
> the ocean shore.
>
> One person could drag 4 sheets until their arms began to ache, then
> drop one sheet and continue with 3, then drop another and drag 2 and
> so on. If they did that for say 6 trips they would have a small stash
> of sheets around that shore.  All they then have to do is repeat the
> process from the first stash, and they eventually have a big stash of
> sheets close to the 7 site.

There is no need to get them across the lagoon opening.  They need to be moved from the ocean side of Nutiran to the lagoon side - a distance of about half a mile.  From there it should be no big deal to raft them down the lagoon shore to the other end of the island.  Slow, hot work but doable - especially if your life depended on it.  Dragging the sheets around the northwest tip of Nutiran and down the ocean shore would be absolute hell.  I walked that route one time, not dragging anything but my own butt, and I never want to do it again.

A lot people are having a hard time making any sense out of my hypothesis about the corrugated iron but here's what I see:

- There was a castaway or castaways living at the Seven Site. The partial skeleton of one of them was found in 1940.

-  Based upon what we know about decomposition and crab bone-scattering rates on Niku (and we need to know more), it appears that the castaway whose bones were found had been dead a matter of months, not years.

- Any castaway who survived on that island through the great drought of 1938 must have had an extremely efficient means of collecting and storing what little rain did fall.

- We feel quite confident, for a number of reasons, that the Seven Site is the place where the castaway(s) lived and where the bones were found.

- There is, at the Seven Site, an unexplained deposit of corrugated iron. There is no doubt that corrugated iron can be used to collect rainwater.

- Given that there is a known need and an apparent solution and a known source which seems to match the type of corrugation found at the site, it does not seem to me to be a great stretch to think that the corrugation was used by the castaway(s) as a means of collecting rainwater.

If that's what it was, it does seem odd that Gallagher made no mention of the corrugation.  But then, we have no catalog of everything Gallagher found.  We have his initial reports in September/October 1940 describing the bones, sextant box, shoe sole, fire, birds and turtle remains.  He was then ordered to make a thorough search for more evidence but then the weather got bad and his radio broke down and the next thing we have is his letter, written December 27, 1940, that accompanied the stuff he sent to Suva.  If it wasn't for later notes to the file by others, we wouldn't know that he also found part of a man's shoe and some corks with brass chains.  In short, Gallagher may very well have found sheets of corrugated iron laid out on the ground.  He is sure as hell not going to ship them to Suva, any more than he shipped the dead birds and turtle, and if he found them during the "thorough search" we have no description from him that would reasonably include them.

So there...phfffft.  (sorry)

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:48:58
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Mystery message

Jack Clark writes:

> Sorry I  have no startling news to pass on so the cable remains a
> mystery.

Negative results are still results.  We now know more than we did. Good work.  Thank you.

The Kirkby message remains a mystery.  Is it perhaps time to check the possibility (remote though it seems) that the "Melbourne" referenced in the cable was Melbourne, Florida?  We have one, and possibly two, other accounts of post-loss messages heard in Florida.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:56:40
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Chance of a lifetime

Never let it be said that we don't give those with other theories every opportunity to prove us wrong. I can promise you this - you'll never see participation in a TIGHAR expedition offered for auction on eBay.
************************************************************************
From Clayton Davis:

Nauticos is at it again.
LTM
Clayton Davis, long-time lurker
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Opportunity to Participate in the Search for Amelia Earhart to be Auctioned Off on eBay Beginning December 6, 2004

CAPE PORPOISE, Maine, Dec. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- Nauticos, a company with an impressive record of success in deep water searches has teamed with leading authorities, technical experts and media professionals to undertake the definitive search and recovery of Amelia Earhart's missing Lockheed Electra 10E.

(PHOTO:  http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20041206/NYM240 )

And, in an unprecedented educational and fundraising technique, Nauticos is opening six spaces to non-professional researchers.  One space each is being allotted to a teacher and a student, while the remaining four slots will be auctioned on eBay.

For those who share a sense of adventure with Amelia Earhart, this mission promises to be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to be a part of history. Beginning December 6, 2004, bidders may log onto eBay for their chance to win a coveted berth on the Earhart Discovery Mission.

Successful bidders will join the ship's crew and scientists in all phases of the voyage and search. From launching, flying and recovering the sonar sled to standing watch, you will be an intimate part of a team in a place that few ever get to see as it solves one of the greatest mysteries of the 20th Century

One of the world's most acclaimed deep-sea search and recovery groups, Nauticos was responsible for such discoveries as  -

      - the I-52 (an historic World War II Japanese submarine shipwreck)
      - the Dakar (an Israeli submarine lost in the Mediterranean in 1968)
      - wreckage from Japanese aircraft carriers sunk in the Battle of Midway
      - one of the deepest ancient shipwrecks ever found dating to the third century BC.

Additionally, Nauticos has managed the operations for such celebrated expeditions as the "Titanic Live" broadcast for the Discovery Channel and Dateline NBC. They have also worked in conjunction with such organizations as the US Navy and National Geographic.

Theories abound as to what happened that July 2 in 1937 when the world's most famous female aviator vanished over the Pacific on her way to becoming the first person to fly around the world at the equator. The details surrounding Amelia Earhart's last flight remain a mystery.

Speculation on what happened to Earhart has never ceased.  In March 2005, Nauticos will pick up the cold trail of evidence in hopes of solving the mystery.  Using modern technology to reexamine old evidence and plot possible crash sites, Nauticos is continuing its 2002 search of the location many feel is the most probable crash site.

For additional information, please log onto FindAmelia.com.

Photo:  NewsCom:  http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20041206/NYM240
AP PhotoExpress Network:  PRN10
PRN Photo Desk, photodesk@prnewswire.com
Source: Nauticos

CONTACT:  David Jourdan, +1-207-967-0666 (Office) or
+1-207-891-7531(Mobile), or Sukil Suh +1-808-544-3023 (Office) or
+1-808-384-9481(Mobile), both of Nauticos

Web site:  http://www.nauticos.com/
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:54:57
From:         David Bush
Subject:      Re: Seven site

So, please explain to me where the raft was stored? Was it with the cache of supplies left by the survivors of  the Norwich City? Do you really think that AE/FN would chop down trees and make a raft? Where did they get an axe? Why would they go to that much work? Seems like it would be less work to drag them around the island than to chop down trees and build a raft.

LTM,
David Bush
Houston, Texas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:55:20
From:         Alfred Hendrickson
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

" . . . be an intimate part of a team in a place that few ever get to see as it solves one of the greatest mysteries of the 20th Century"

I love it! Not "if it solves", but "as it solves". Wow! Pretty sure of themselves, aren't they?

LTM, who was not a chicken counter,

Alfred Hendrickson #2583
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:56:50
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Occam's Razor re-enacted?

Ric said:  "A lot people are having a hard time making any sense out of my hypothesis about the corrugated iron  . . ."

And I am one of them.

Ric said:  "- Given that there is a known need and an apparent solution and a known source which seems to match the type of corrugation found at the site, it does not seem to me to be a great stretch to think that the corrugation was used by the castaway(s) as a means of collecting rainwater."

1.  I have no problem with one of two sheets of the stuff, but not 20. Granted, the castaway is going to do whatever is necessary to survive, but humping 20 sheets of corrugated iron for two miles from the Arundel camp to the Seven Site is too much to accept if that island is as bad as Ric says it is.  Especially considering the effort it involved.  Rafting the stuff around the lagoon assumes the castaway had the resources to collect fallen trees/limbs/flotsam for a raft and the resources and skills to fasten it all together for a raft of some type.  Then our castaway would have to walk the raft around the lagoon - or did he/she swim across the lagoon using the raft as a life preserver/material carrier?  Has anyone on any of the TIGHAR expedition to Niku walked around the lagoon?  I'm not talking of walking a feet but walking at least half of the circumference of the lagoon as the castaway would have had to do?

2.  Assuming a sheet size of approximately 4'X8' or 3'X10' would give the castaway over 600 square-feet of collection area when it rains.  In a time of drought, yes, I'd want 600 SF from 20 sheets of the stuff rather than the 30-60 SF of only one or two sheets.   But if this was a water collection device, what other supporting structure would be needed for such a large unit?  Wouldn't evidence of a couple of support beams or disturbed soil for post holes etc. survived?  And if it was a collection device how was the water collected?  Laying the sheets on the ground?  It doesn't sound like a very efficient way to me; all of the water would run off between the cracks/seams before the castaway could collect it - that, assuming the sheets are level, otherwise it would just run the length of the sheets and disappear in the sand.

3.  And how was the water stored after collection?  If there was no storage capacity, then is the castaway collecting only enough to survive between rain falls?  But would 600-plus SF of corrugated sheeting be needed, because if you can't store it, why collect it?

4.  Earlier, I asked about the possibility of the sheets serving as a crude condenser and being a "dew collection" device.  Does dew form on Niku; is there enough temperature variation and humidity to form dew on the sheets if they are elevated?

5.  If Occam's Razor urges us to look to the most obvious of explanations to explain the unexplained, then I would vote for roofing material for Gallagher's proposed house.

LTM, who's about to get creamed!
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 12:16:53
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Dave Bush says:

> So, please explain to me where the raft was stored?

I have no reason to think that any raft was stored.

>  Was it with the cache of supplies left by the survivors of  the
> Norwich City?

I wouldn't think so.

>  Do you really think that AE/FN would chop down trees and make a raft?

Yes, or salvage fallen trees.  At that time Nutiran was covered with buka forest.  Buka (pisonia grandis) is very soft wood and fallen logs are common in the present day buka forest. 

>  Where did they get an axe?

There is a hand ax listed in the Luke Field inventory.  "Item 22 - Nickel plated hand-ax, Marbles No. 2 with Blade Guard"  That doesn't mean it was aboard on July 2nd but it does mean that it's not unreasonable to suppose that it was.

>  Why would they go to that much work?

To save their lives.

>  Seems like it would be less work to drag them around the island than
> to chop down trees and build a raft.

That's because you've never been there.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 12:26:28
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

Alfred Hendrickson says:

> I love it! Not "if it solves", but "as it solves". Wow! Pretty sure of
> themselves, aren't they?

That's another thing you won't catch us doing - promising what we'll find.

Notice that no date for the expedition is mentioned.  I think I can recognize desperation fund-raising when I see it.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:05:01
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Occam's Razor re-enacted?

Okay Dennis.  Good questions.

You say

> 1.  I have no problem with one of two sheets of the stuff, but not 20.

But later you say:

>  In a time of drought, yes, I'd want 600 SF from 20 sheets of the stuff
> rather than the 30-60 SF of only one or two sheets.

1938 was a time of drought, so I guess you changed your mind.

You say:

> Granted, the castaway is going to do whatever is necessary to survive,
> but humping 20 sheets of corrugated iron for two miles from the Arundel
> camp to the Seven Site is too much to accept if that island is as bad
> as Ric says it is.

I agree, that's why I think they must have used a raft.

> Rafting the stuff around the lagoon assumes the castaway had the
> resources to
> collect fallen trees/limbs/flotsam for a raft and the resources and
> skills to fasten it all together for a raft of some type.

A hand ax would be nice to have, and they may have had one, but it may not have been necessary.  As I mentioned, the present day buka forest is littered with fallen logs.  Nutiran, at that time, was also one of the few places on the island where there were stands of coconut palms. Making rope from braided palm fronds is not rocket science and it's immensely strong.

>   Then our castaway would have to walk the raft around the lagoon - or
> did he/she
> swim across the lagoon using the raft as a life preserver/material
> carrier?  Has anyone on any of the TIGHAR expedition to Niku walked
> around the lagoon?  I'm not talking of walking a feet but walking at
> least half of the circumference of the lagoon as the castaway would
> have had to do?

I've never walked that far in the shallows all at one go but I've done a whole lot of walking in those shallows doing metal detecting and exploring the shoreline near the Seven Site for clam beds (found one too).  It's really no big deal as long as you take it slow.

> if this was a water collection device, what other supporting structure
> would be needed
> for such a large unit?  Wouldn't evidence of a couple of support beams
> or disturbed soil for post holes etc. survived?  And if it was a
> collection device how was the water collected?  Laying the sheets on
> the ground?

Why not? Hoisting heavy sheets up on poles would be very difficult.

>   It doesn't sound like a very efficient way to me; all of the
> water would run off between the cracks/seams before the castaway could
> collect it - that, assuming the sheets are level, otherwise it would
> just run the length of the sheets and disappear in the sand.

You'd want to lay them out on a mildly sloping surface and have some kind of channel at the lower end to collect the run-off and direct it toward your collection container.  And ya know...son of a gun.... there were heavy channel sections there too which, as I recall, just happened to be on the downhill side of where the corrugation was laid out.  Pure coincidence I'm sure.

> 3.  And how was the water stored after collection?  If there was no
> storage capacity, then is the castaway collecting only enough to survive
> between rain falls?  But would 600-plus SF of corrugated sheeting be
> needed, because if you can't store it, why collect it?

Good point.  There are remains of a metal drum downhill from the corrugation but there's no way to know when it dates from.  Might there have been a metal drum at the Arundel site?  I don't know.  When did metal drums rather than wooden barrels first come into use?  Tom King also identified the rusted remains of some kind metal container at the site. The bottom line is that it's certainly possible that containers were present that were not reported by Gallagher and which have since rusted away.

> 4.  Earlier, I asked about the possibility of the sheets serving as a
> crude condenser and being a "dew collection" device.  Does dew form on
> Niku; is there enough temperature variation and humidity to form dew on
> the sheets if they are elevated?

If dew forms it doesn't stay around very long.  Does anybody else who has spent time on the island have recollections about dew?

> 5.  If Occam's Razor urges us to look to the most obvious of
> explanations to explain the unexplained, then I would vote for roofing
> material for Gallagher's proposed house.

How many times have we corrected the erroneous popular perception of what Occam's Razor says?  We even have it enshrined as a FAQ (see http://www.tighar.org/forum/FAQs/razor.htm) Occam's Razor admonishes us to test the most easily testable hypothesis first.  That's all.  I can't think of a good way test any of the various conjectures about how the corrugation at the Seven Site was used.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:14:04
From:         Carla Bowling
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

The auction description mentions that the expedition is scheduled to leave the last week in February, 2005.

Now, back to lurking,

Carla
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:46:45
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

My favorite part was how "successful bidders" (i.e. anyone who can pay) will get to "join the ship's crew and scientists in all phases of the voyage and search. From launching, flying and recovering the sonar sled to standing watch..." (i.e. you know, work).

Do you think if you threw in a frog and your prize slingshot that they'd let you whitewash Aunt Polly's fence?

LTM,
Russ
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:47:16
From:         Timothy McClure
Subject:      Re: Occam's Razor re-enacted?

Do you think that there cold have been nails with the corrugated iron? If so why not just nail one sheet to some logs then load the rest of the corrugated iron on top. It would seem a faster and easier way then braiding a rope to lash the logs together.

Timothy
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:47:32
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Amelia Goes to E=Bay

Carla says:

> The auction description mentions that the expedition is scheduled to
> leave the last week in February, 2005.

Thanks for the correction.  I missed that.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 14:20:42
From:         Lisanne Anderson
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

Even more amusing is how they promise the best accommodations that they can provide under the circumstances. The warning about seasickness and other discomforts is rather droll as well.

Does sound more like a pleasure cruise than a serious endeavor. Perhaps by January they will be booking through travel agents. 
Lisanne
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:01:52
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

I've looked again and I'll be darned if I can find anywhere that it says the expedition is scheduled to leave the last week in February, 2005.  I must be looking in the wrong places, but the fact that the dates are not prominently displayed is a red flag.  Typically, when you charter a ship like this you do it many months in advance and you charter it for very specific dates.  You also have to pay a big chunk of money up front to secure the dates.

I do see that, after describing all the virtues of the R/V Mt. Mitchell, they say:

>Should this vessel be unavailable for any reason, a comparable vessel
>will be provided.

As someone who has arranged many expedition vessel charters, that strikes me as a very strange comment.  If the ship is booked, the ship is booked and recently re-fitted research vessels of this class do not suddenly break down and become unavailable.  There is also no indication that the folks who own the ship have other comparable vessels standing by.

Also, if this trip is all set and funded and ready to sail in late February why are they only now looking for paying passengers?

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:02:14
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Occam's Razor re-enacted?

Tim McClure asks

> Do you think that there cold have been nails with the corrugated iron?

I would imagine that the sheets were originally nailed to timbers but in 1937 they would already have been there for about 45 years so I would imagine that the sheets were already pretty rusty and the nails pretty much useless.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:03:05
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Noonan's car

Looking at 1937 pictures of AE and FN I found the one showing Noonan's car parked next to the Lockheed 10 prior to their departure from I believe Burbank. It was a 1937ish convertible. Does anyone happen to know what make that was?

LTM
************************

I believe it's a Terraplane. Skeet?

P
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:03:50
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Occam's Razor Re-enacted?

> From Ric
> Okay Dennis.  Good questions.
> You say
>
>>   It doesn't sound like a very efficient way to me; all of the
>> water would run off between the cracks/seams before the castaway could
>> collect it - that, assuming the sheets are level, otherwise it would
>> just run the length of the sheets and disappear in the sand.

One of the joys of corrugated iron, which was used in every state in this great country (Australia) as a rain water collection device, is that you can lay the stuff and easily make the seams waterproof without any sealant.

For anyone nor familiar with the stuff, picture a sheet of steel a few times thicker than a tin can, and around 10 ft long and 3 ft wide.  The sheet is fed through a set of rollers that imprints gently curved shallow ripples about 1.5" wide along the whole length of the sheet. Looking from the end of the sheet it is a continuous wave curving up and down across the short edge.

If you lay this stiff on a roof, you overlap the side by side sheets by a couple of ripples.  As long as the long sides slope down hill a degree or two you can channel away quite a flood without much water getting through the overlaps.

Legthwise, the top sheets overlap the bottom ones by a few inches.  The water runs downhill from the top sheets onto the bottom sheets until it reaches the lowest part.

All you would need, to collect the rainwater at the bottom and channel it into some container, is to walk along the lowest edge of all the sheets, about a foot or so up from the edge, and jump on the sheet. You don;t even have to jump hard.  That will bend the bottom foot or so of sheet upwards a little.

Do that along the width (3ft) of each of the bottom sheets and you have a gutter for the water to flow sideways.

A few lumps of rock, or even shoving some dirt or sand or whatever is lying around under this lower edge to create a slope in the direction you want toe water to flow and you could even fill a benedictine bottle with dew.

Not only that, but the whole operation could be started with one sheet! More could be added over time as the castaway felt able to move another  sheet to the site.

Of course, knowing there are storms and winds on the island, if the castaway salvaged the sheets from Arundel buildings, there would have been nail holes in the tops of the corrugations.  The sheets are nailed through the top of the corrugations so water doesn't get through past the nails.

The castaway(s) would have had to be fit enough to get them off the roofs of the Arundel buildings, and have worked out some way to pull the nails.

So, as much as I believe these sheets were probably brought to the spot to build a shack for Gallagher at that end of the island, it was quite possible for the castaway to have moved them, and equally possible they could have built up a quite efficient rainwater (and dew) collection device over a short time, and begun using it from day one.

All they had to do was see rain falling on corrugated iron at the Arundel site once, to see just how much water is channeled off this material.

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:23:45
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Occam's Razor re-enacted?

For Dennis McGee --

I agree with you and Occam, of course, but in fairness to Ric and his outlandish hypothesis, and in answer to your question:

>Wouldn't evidence of a couple of support beams
>or disturbed soil  for post holes etc. survived?

I'll say no.  There was clearly a structure next to the water tank, that drained water into the tank, but the only way we're able to say that is because (a) there were still a couple of badly weathered posts lying on the ground, and (b) we were able to plot the boundaries and  shape of THIS patch of corrugated, which was entirely within our  cleared area (unlike the one farther up the ridge) pretty precisely, and could  see how it had torqued in collapsing, causing some sheets to overlap  others.  But there were no visible postholes. The "soil" at the Seven  Site is basically coral rubble with organic material kind of filtered through  it.  One might be able to see a posthole in a carefully scraped surface cut  20 or 30 cm. down, but on the surface, the holes just fill in and  disappear.

LTM, who loves the sound of rain on corrugated, but doubts if Earhart heard
it at the Seven Site.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:42:20
From:         Art Carty
Subject:      Re: amelia goes to E-Bay

Look here; March 2005

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041206/nym240_1.html

> From Ric
>
> I've looked again and I'll be darned if I can find anywhere that it
> says the expedition is scheduled to leave the last week in February,
> 2005.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:43:02
From:         Anne Springer
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

I just cannot help but think this once in a lifetime opportunity will give you more than just an expedition; it will be your chance to also become a castaway, just like Amelia...

It seems like a thrown together money making venture rather than a serious expedition in which takes a lot of careful planning, like Ric suggested.

LTM, who prefers having a return ticket
Anne Springer
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:43:30
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Occam's Razor re-enacted?

This argument is becoming more bizarre all the time, but I'll refrain from commenting except to quibble with one point:

>And ya know...son of a gun.... there
>were heavy channel  sections there too which, as I recall, just happened
>to be on the downhill  side of where the corrugation was laid out.  Pure
>coincidence I'm  sure.

Nope.  They were somewhere along the ridge to the SE of the corrugated that we plotted, in other words (probably) at more or less the same elevation on the ridge as the corrugated, and one piece was found (we were told) nested inside the other (inverted).  Trouble is, they were brought in by a team  member (who'll remain nameless, but you know) who didn't map their location, and  it was late in the project when time was scarce and I didn't insist that he waltz me back into the Scaevola to show me where he'd found it.

LTM (who thinks we might as well try the other kind of  channelling)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:43:54
From:         Carla Bowling
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

If you go to one of the auctions on the ebay site, there is a FAQ list on the  right side, "when does the five week expedition begin".  Actually, the begin date is March 1, 2005, travel to Hawaii was the last week in February.

Carla
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:12:03
From:         Rusty Metty
Subject:      Re: Chance of a lifetime

Why not Ric?

Seems like a great way to generate capital and get free web media as well. Whoever the winners are could be put to use engaged in not essential support activities.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:12:27
From:         Jim Dix
Subject:      Re: Noonan's car

Terraplane, sporty spinoff of Hudson. Years ago on the forum.

Jim Dix
2132
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:13:21
From:         Al Hillis
Subject:      Re: SEven site

Dr King,

Thinking that perhaps AE & FN were not the brightest lights on the tree, brave yes but not the brightest, I believe as you,  AE & FN were unlikely candidates to be involved with this contraption other than perhaps to use sheets of it for placing under the Electra's wheels for engine running or getting it 'unstuck' for some other activity?

As a water collector/guide it wouldn't matter if it was ten feet in the air or six inches off of the ground as rain would find it anyway.

Having taking a 3 day survival course in the Mojave Desert taught us that condensation collects more readily on the bottom of objects. Of course this included desert epicurean eating delights that AE and FN didn't need to enjoy. Any contraption the size you describe would most likely thematically evaporate faster than its moisture could run into a collecting reservoir. I think its water collection would be best in a rain or a cooler than normal day. Having the sheet metal six to ten inches off the ground would be best for underside moisture.

If you or Ric ever get stranded together, God forbid, here is a way to collect enough water to survive.

Solar water collector-

Fortunately, there is an emergency survival technique for gathering water from our driest deserts during their most brutal seasons. It works even better on a beach. It is commonly known as the Solar Still. One of the most significant survival tools created in the last 40 years. The Solar Still was developed by two physicians working for the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Results of extensive testing in the Arizona deserts by the U.S. Air Force proved that when properly assembled, the still can save your life. The Solar Still functions under the general principle of the "greenhouse effect". Solar energy heats the ground by passing through a clear plastic barrier. Moisture from the soil then evaporates rises and condenses on the underside of the plastic barrier above. The still also has the ability to purify tainted water. In fact, it condenses pure water from just about anything. Even urine will produce clean, drinkable water. (CAUTION: One fluid never to be used is radiator fluid, as its toxins will vaporize and poison the water.)

Materials
There are only 2 essential components to constructing the Solar Still -- a container to catch the water and a 6 x 6-footsheet of clear plastic. A shovel or trowel, a length of plastic tube and tape are all optional. Note: Don't get hung up on the plastic sheet. The container can be a collapsible cup, an empty plastic bottle, a small cooking pot or just about anything with a large enough opening to catch falling drops of water. In a pinch, even tin foil or a sandwich bag can be fashioned into a workable receptacle. The sheet of clear plastic can be a ground cloth used under tents when backpacking or a thin painting drop cloth. Both work well as long as there are no tears or holes. This is the one item that should be carried at all times, since there is no natural substitute out in the boonies. I keep a 6 x 12-foot plastic drop cloth taped inside my daypack, large enough to make 2 stills if necessary. Some desert rats like to keep their plastic sheets folded inside a hip sack or as part of their first-aid kits. A 6-foot length of flexible plastic tubing, similar to the kind used in fish tanks is a non-essential but desirable addition to the still components. This will allow you to drink accumulated water without needing to break down the solar still, inevitably affecting its efficiency.

Constructing a solar still
1. Dig a pit approximately 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep. Use a shovel, hand trowel, a digging stick or even your hands in soft soil or sand. Look for a sandy wash or a depression where rainwater might collect.

2. In the center of the pit, dig another small hole deep enough for the water container.

3. Place the container inside, and then run the tubing from the container to the outside of the pit. If there is tape available, tape the tubing to the inside of
the container.

4. Blanket the pit with the plastic sheet, evenly on all sides, but not touching the bottom of the pit. Anchor the corners with rocks.

5. Find a small rounded rock to place in the center of the sheet, over the water container. This will keep the plastic centered and control any flapping from the wind. Gently push down on the center weight until the sides slope to a 45=BA angle. If the pit is dug deep enough, this should leave the center weight just a few inches above the water container.

6. Next, secure the edges of the plastic sheet with rocks and dirt. Make sure there are no places where moisture can escape.

7. Close the tubing end with a knot, or double it and tie it closed.

Within 2 hours, the air inside the still will become saturated with moisture and begin to condense onto the underside of the plastic sheeting. Because of the angle of the plastic, water will run down towards the center. Finally, drops will gather and fall from the apex down into the water container. As the container fills, simply sip fresh, sterile water from the plastic tubing. In especially dry conditions, water output can be increased by placing succulent plant material inside the still.

The Solar Still only takes about an hour to build. If constructed correctly, it can yield about a quart of water a day. And although the palm trees may be noticeably absent, you will have made your very own oasis in the desert, quicker than Hollywood could. I confess, this article and other survival techniques can be stolen err.  I mean found at
http://www.desertusa.com/mag98/dec/stories/water.html
it was more meaningful because of the pictures (with girl) than I could explain. And Yes, I know. They probably did not have plastic sheeting but other materials will do the job.

Fire away Ric. I don't need a cigarette or blindfold. But that Dr King guy is my type of person. Bet he doesn't use a Mac either.

Still, respectfully,
Al Hillis
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:13:56
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Occam's Razor Re-enacted

Except that Gallagher found the remains of the castaway, meaning the castaway wasn't alive to move the sheets if they were brought to the spot to build a house for Gallagher. For the castaway to have used them would have required the person to be alive at the time.

LTM,
Dave Bush
Houston, Texas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:14:38
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Occam's Razor Re-enacted?

>> And ya know...son of a gun.... there
>> were heavy channel  sections there too which, as I recall, just happened
>> to be on the downhill  side of where the corrugation was laid out.
>> Pure coincidence I'm  sure.
>
> Nope.  They were somewhere along the ridge to the SE of the corrugated
> that we plotted, in other words (probably) at more or less the same elevation
> on the ridge as the corrugated, and one piece was found (we were told) nested
> inside the other (inverted).

Sounding more and more to me as though these may have been removed from the roof of "the house built for Gallagher" on that side of the island. Perhaps after Gallagher died, or maybe at some time during the later settlement.

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:14:56
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Ric / Pat:

OOPS - Sorry - hadn't read all my messages when I last replied to the raft comment.

Makes a lot of sense when its all explained. My rantings are in error. Thanks for enlightening me.

LTM,
Dave Bush
Houston, Texas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:30:03
From:         Anne Springer
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

Anne Springer says:

> I just cannot help but think this once in a lifetime opportunity will
> give you more than just an expedition; it will be your chance to also
> become a castaway, just like Amelia...
>
> It seems like a thrown together money making venture rather than a
> serious expedition in which takes a lot of careful planning, like Ric
> suggested.

I don't mean to imply that the venture is poorly planned or that it is in any way a money-making scam.  I believe Dave Jourdan to be a competent professional in deep-sea search technique and technology.  He would be the first to tell you that he's not a historian nor is he an expert on the Earhart disappearance. He has faith in those who think they are and I think he honestly believes he has a chance at find Earhart's Electra.  I do see what I think are indications that the money is tight for this trip.  Been there. Done that.

Funding expeditions is tough.  Very tough.  We have, on occasion, solicited "Sponsor Team Members" from among our own TIGHAR members.  I have turned down some and accepted others.  Most work out just fine, but the amount of money has never been anything like what Jourdan is asking and we've never promised anyone anything but (to coin a phrase) "blood, toil, tears and sweat".  And we've sure as hell never peddled "adventure" on eBay.

Taking a page from TIGHAR's book, I see that Dave has formed a 501 (c)(3) nonprofit called "SeaWord".  That's an admirable move, but his search for the Electra is still primarily a for-profit treasure hunt which solicits investors who hope to make a buck from finding and exhibiting the long-lost plane.  I have nothing against capitalism and I wish Dave and his investors the best of luck, but it's very much not the way we approach the subject.

If he can find paying passengers I'll think they'll get about a week of sea sickness and four more weeks of crushing boredom and disappointment.

LTM,
ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:30:41
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Chance of a Lifetime

Rusty Metty says:

> Why not Ric?

A. Because Ric has learned from bitter experience not to go anywhere near the tropical Pacific in March
B. Because Ric doesn't like boats.
C. Because Ric gets bored easily.
D. Because Ric is familiar enough with the post-loss radio messages to know that, wherever AE ended up, it ain't where Nauticos is looking.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:53:25
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Gallagher and his clues

For Ted Campbell, in response to your posting of 11/28

Ted, I'm catching up after a time away from the forum and all other internet correspondence, and may have missed responses to your note, which I found very insightful.  In case nobody else dealt with it, though, I wanted to correct one of your impressions.  You said...

>However, I recall some of your conversations with the early settler's
>saying they saw the aircraft prior to Gallagher's arrival.
>What and when did things really happen?   Strange  indeed!

We don't really have anyone who says they saw the aircraft prior to Gallagher's arrival.  We have one person -- Emily Sikuli -- who says she  saw something she was told was from an airplane, on the Nutiran reef, sometime  between her arrival early in 1940 and her departure at the end of 1941.   She could have seen it for the first time after Gallagher departed in May of  1941.  I imagine the colonists finding the wreck after Gallagher's  departure, and finding the bones the Emily reports at the same time, packing the  latter up in a gunny sack to give Gallagher when he returns, and then, when he  does return and promptly dies, saying "oh my, bad idea," and tossing them in the  drink -- a la the Kilts story.  These, of course, are different bones from  those found at the Seven Site -- maybe Fred's, maybe Norwich City victims -- but Emily mixes the two bones stories up in her memory.  That's my wild-eyed  guess. 

LTM (who's pretty strange, herself)
Tom
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:15:37
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

"Successful bidders will join the ship's crew".... In other words : they are expected to pay for having to work ! Most people I know expect to be paid for doing any work.

LTM
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:15:56
From:         Lee Boyle
Subject:      Roofing material

Ric,

If my memory is correct, Dick Evan walked around the Gardner Island while  he was stationed on there with the Coast Guard in 1944 and 1945.

He may have seen the roofing material.

Lee Boyle
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:16:42
From:         Scott White
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Al Hillis posted on a "solar still" design.

I don't really know anything about these, except that the whole idea was roundly trashed on another list I read. The key point deals with step 1, "Dig a pit approximately 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep."

My advice to anyone interested in this is to remember the last time they may have dug a hole to plant a shrub, remember how much extra fluid they needed that day, and multiply it by whatever factor it takes to reflect the much larger volume of a pit 4 ft. diameter x 3 ft deep. Then think about the 1 qt per day output of the solar still. How many days will it take to just break even on water lost during construction vs. water gained from the device.

You may want to carry a backhoe with the  plastic sheet in your emergency supplies.

And, just to make sure I'm on-topic, I don't think AE and FN built one of these.

Best,
-SW
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:17:22
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: Noonan's car

For Jim Dix,

Thanks for the info. In the AE picture there are two cars parked next to the Lockheed 10E at Burbank. One is a convertible, the other a sedan. I wonder which is whose. I take it the convertible is Noonan's. What make is the other car then which must be Earhart's ? Or is it the other way round ? Ric says Noonan did not own  a convertible.

LTM
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:17:42
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Chance of a lifetime

Now only if we could persuade Nauticos to include Gardner in their search maybe they could find something and TIGHAR could fill in the blanks regarding how AE got there, what she did while she was there, what a close call it was in finding her and how close it was in solving the mystery in 1940.

Joint cooperation shouldn't be dismissed because of egos,  etc.
========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:18:10
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Gallagher and his clues

Tom,

Your response seems very reasonable.  Do we know if there are notable seasonal changes (like here in the North we have snow - winter, cool and wet - spring, hot - summer, cool - fall) on Gardner that Emily could relate to her seeing/hearing about the plane?  For example:  It was during  the HEAVY RAINY season where no one could go outside to work but just sit  around and talk and do handicrafts.  If so this may narrow the time frame  and help explain why Gallagher didn't mention it.

As more and more ideas come out of the forum do we have a method of communicating with Emily and others to see if they can add clarification to  their stories?  Ric seems to have a way to communicate to Betty via e mail, etc.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:19:00
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Nauticos expedition

Ric said: "If he can find paying passengers I'll think they'll get about a week of sea sickness and four more weeks of crushing boredom and disappointment."

I agree totally.

Having joined TIGHAR on three expedition to the spruce and pines forests of eastern Maine in search of  l'Oiseau Blanc, I could not imagine how boring it would have been to only watch.  The adventure and joy comes from being a participant, in my case it was crashing through the wilderness (well, kind of), dodging "bears"; digging deep holes where the metal detectors told us to; finding a Prince Albert tobacco can and pieces of chain and then spending endless hours trying to fit them into the puzzle (we didn't); sleeping under the only hole in a 20-man tent during a rain storm; hearty breakfasts of flapjacks and bacon; long evenings before a big camp fire swapping ideas, theories, and scary airplane stories, and drying out dew-soaked equipment; a VERY quick dip in the mountain lake that had a water temperature of maybe 35 degrees (in JULY!); and last but not least, enjoying a snack of Oreos during a break.

Sitting on boat for four or five weeks watching someone do their job doesn't really appeal to me, not to mention just getting in the way of the professionals as they go about their rountines.

LTM, a long-time Oreo lover
Dennis O. McGee #0149
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:19:17
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Dave Bush says:

> Except that Gallagher found the remains of the castaway, meaning the castaway
> wasn't alive to move the sheets if they were brought to the spot to build a
> house for Gallagher.

I never suggested that the castaway moved the sheets to build a house for Gallagher.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:31:38
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Occam's Razor re-enacted?

Tom King says (referring to my corrugation conjecture):

> This argument is becoming more bizarre all the time,

It seems to me that the way any of us views various conjectures about who did what depends upon the image we've formed in our own minds about situations which, in reality, we know very little about.  I find it very plausible that Earhart and Noonan were creative and hard working while trying to survive on the island.  Maybe that's wrong.  Maybe Noonan died within days and AE was a total basket case.

Tom finds it very plausible that Gallagher would behave like an archaeologist and go to great lengths to protect the ground until he had time to conduct the kind of examinations we do at the Seven Site. Maybe Gallagher did just that... and maybe not.

My point is that these conjectures are based more upon the characters we've created in our own minds than upon any hard facts.

The whole "house built for Gallagher" thing is very strange.  The only reference to it anywhere is one sentence in Laxton's 1951 description of his 1949 tour of the island.  None of the Coasties who were at the site during the war remembers any house, nor do any of the former Niku residents we've spoken to.  In fact, none of the former Niku residents seems to know anything about the Seven Site at all.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:59:16
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Roofing material

For Chuck Boyle

Dick Evans was one of the original reporters of the tank, but he reported  no corrugated.  There's a sequencing problem here that's really pretty maddening.

1. Gallagher dies in 1941.

2. Evans and Moffitt report seeing a tank, some posts, maybe some canvas somewhere around the Seven Site in about 1945.  No house, no corrugated.

3. Laxton reports the "house built for Gallagher" somewhere around the Seven Site in 1949.

4. In 2001 we record corrugated of two different types in two different locations at the Seven Site -- one clearly associated with the tank, the other  on the ridge that overlooks it.

So how can there have been a "house built for Gallagher" that was recognizable as such in '49, but that four years or so earlier was reduced to  some posts and a tank?  And if the corrugated (either deposit, or both) was part of it, why didn't Evans and Moffitt notice it?

There is, of course, the possibility that the tank at the Seven Site isn't the one seen by Evans and Moffitt, but if that's the case, (a) why haven't we found their tank, and (b) why didn't they notice the house built for Gallagher?

LTM (who continues to scratch her old gray head)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:00:45
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Gallagher and his clues

For Ted Campbell --

> Do we know if there are notable
> seasonal changes (like here in  the North we have snow - winter, cool
> and wet - spring, hot - summer,  cool - fall) on Gardner that Emily
> could relate to her seeing/hearing  about the plane?  For example:
> It was during  the HEAVY RAINY season where no one could go outside
> to work but just sit   around and talk and do handicrafts.  If so this
> may narrow the time  frame  and help explain why Gallagher didn't
> mention it.

That's a very interesting idea, and while I don't think we have a very immediate way to communicate with Ms. Sikuli, we certainly could get a letter to her.

Niku, being just south of the equator, doesn't have seasons like ours (No snow!), but it does have a cyclone season and a non-cyclone season, and the locals probably make much finer "seasonal" discriminations than we do. We  could  certainly ask Ms. Sikuli if she remembers about what time of year it was. We'd want to take her response with a considerable grain of salt, of course; it's been a long time, but particularly since she was shown the wreckage  on one (or more?) of her trips around the island with her father, it's possible that she could nail down the time relative to other remembered  events.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:01:27
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Occam's Razor Re-enacted?

Ric says:

>The only
>reference to it anywhere is one sentence in Laxton's  1951 description
>of his 1949 tour of the island.

Very true, and it may be that the solution to the problem is that Laxton  was actually referring to a ruin that somebody described to him as "the house we built for Gallagher."

I do have to say that I'm not exactly accusing Gallagher of thinking like  an archaeologist when I suggest that he covered up his search area.  I can't actually think of an archaeologist I've known who's done that -- other than us, at the Seven Site, and our decision to do so was motivated by (a) having a bunch of beat-up tarps we didn't want to ship home, and (b) our site-specific problem with Scaevola growth.  Ric correctly points out that  there probably wasn't much Scaevola on the site in '40-41, but I'm not convinced  that there wasn't enough obscuring vegetation growth, perhaps of various kinds, to make covering the area a good idea if you planned to come back and didn't want to replow old furrows.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:01:50
From:         Mike Haddock
Subject:      Re: Noonan's car

I seem to remember that AE had a yellow convertible which had a nickname. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

LTM,
Mike Haddock, #2438
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:02:16
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: Solar stills

Why going through all the trouble of speculating on how water could be made by such artificial means as a piece of plastic? If anyone is interested in producing water using solar stills why not ask any military pilot ? It's part of their training. Digging holes and making solar stills is part of pilot survival training is all the world's air forces. They also learn how to catch birds, kill them and cook them.

LTM
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:02:45
From:         Marjorie Smith
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

Actually paying for the privilege of working in an exotic or romantic situation is the whole idea upon which dude ranching is based -- and it has lately been revived with some success as a way of saving family farms throughout this part of the world.

LTM (who grew up on a ranch and can't imagine paying to work on one)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:03:39
From:         Patrick Gaston
Subject:      Re: Chance of a Lifetime

I fail to understand all of the self-righteous sniggering over Nauticos' fundraising tactics.  As Ric has pointed out, it's no secret that TIGHAR has, in effect, "sold" slots on previous expeditions in return for a sizeable donation.  I have no problem with that, nor should anybody else. As Ric mentioned, financing expeditions is tough and a deepwater search is inherently a lot more expensive than a ground-based search confined to a relatively small area.

What galls me is how Forumites routinely sneer at crashed-and-sank as an "untestable hypothesis" -- then when somebody tries to test it, they sneer at how the effort is financed, the motives of its sponsors, etc.  I suppose that if Nauticos finds NR16020 they'll sneer at the expenditure of so much money, which could have gone to buy coats for poor children.

IF the airplane is found, and IF it's salvageable, and IF Nauticos can win agreement from the other "interested parties,"  then what is conceptually wrong with putting the wreckage on display in a dignified manner?  The expedition sponsors deserve the chance to recoup their costs.  I don't think anyone is talking about a circus sideshow, primarily because those "interested parties"  wouldn't permit it.  The courts are going to give Earhart's and Noonan's families a say in the aircraft's disposition, especially if crew remains are found with the wreckage.  Purdue and, possibly, the US government also could be expected to weigh in.

Let's fantasize for a moment and assume that TIGHAR found a relatively-intact Electra back in the Niku scaveola on its first expedition. At that point, as I understand it, the wreckage would have become property of the Kiribati government.  My guess is that the Kiribati would have sold it to the highest bidder, but I'd like to have Ric's thoughts on this scenario.

LTM (who apologizes for not using proper 501(c)(3) terminology)
Pat Gaston
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:03:55
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Roofing material

Lee Boyle writes:

> If my memory is correct, Dick Evan walked around the Gardner Island
> while  he
> was stationed on there with the Coast Guard in 1944 and 1945.

Dick Evans was the first one who told us about seeing a "water collection device" somewhere along the north shore .  Our investigation of his recollections eventually resulted in our discovery of the Seven Site.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:04:17
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Noonan's car

> Ric says Noonan did not own  a convertible.

Ric was wrong (again).  In the photo Noonan has just retrieved a bag from the trunk of the convertible and his wife is standing by the front bumper so it seems reasonable to assume it's his car...not that the kind of car Noonan drove has anything to do with his fate.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:04:38
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Ric / Tom

Have we ever calculated the volume of the water collection tank at the 7 site?   I'm sure we have the dimensions somewhere.

Andrew McKenna
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:05:33
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Seven site

No, but what you said made it sound like the castaway used the material that was placed at the site for the construction of Gallagher's house, which would imply that the castaway was alive at the time that Gallagher was on the island. Or, at least, that was the way it read to me.

LTM,
Dave Bush
Houston, Texas

Ric wrote:

> I never suggested that the castaway moved the sheets to build a house
> for Gallagher.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:06:16
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Chance of a lifetime

Ted Campbell writes:

> Now only if we could persuade Nauticos to include Gardner in their
> search....

It will never happen, not because Dave Jourdan and I have anything against cooperation.  We get along just fine - but for all the talk about "the wonderful and inspirational legacy of Amelia Earhart", Dave's operation is a for-profit venture funded by investors who expect a return on their investment.  It's the prospect of a pristine Electra sitting on the ocean floor, just waiting to be recovered, restored, and made the centerpiece of a traveling commercial exhibit that is the keystone of the entire venture.  Our fondest hope, by contrast, is that we can find conclusively identifiable wreckage.

Simply put, Gardner does not offer the treasure that the Nauticos treasure hunt is based upon.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:06:46
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Gallagher and his clues

Ted Campbell asks:

> As more and more ideas come out of the forum do we have a method of
> communicating with Emily and others to see if they can add
> clarification to  their stories?  Ric seems to have a way to communicate
> to Betty via e mail, etc.

We have no direct means of communicating with Emily other than sending her a letter or asking someone to go see her in person.  I'd be hesitant to do either, not because I think she'd be reluctant to help but because, in my experience, pressing anecdotal witnesses for more recollections than they were able to produce in the initial interview only encourages what we call "helpful witness syndrome".  Anecdotal recollections are notoriously unreliable at best and the more the memory is flogged for details the more likely it is to come up with details of its own invention.

To answer your other question; just four degrees off the equator, Nikumaroro has no seasons as such.  Stormy, rainy weather is more likely between November and April and if Emily's recollection was in some way tied to a period of really bad weather (which it is not) there would be some reason to think that the event may have occurred during those months.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:37:01
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Gallagher and his clues

Tom,
It may be worth a shot.  I know we would have to take any information with a grain of salt but who knows.  How do we go about getting in touch  with her or someone who could followup with her?
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:37:45
From:         Gary Geivet
Subject:      Re: Noonan's car

I think it was a Cord...

Gary H. Geivet

***********************************

Named, IIRC, The Yellow Peril.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:38:18
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Re: Earhart's car

Mike Haddock wrote:

> I seem to remember that AE had a yellow convertible which had a
> nickname. Does that ring a bell with anyone? 

Yes.  She owned a 1922 Kissel Goldbug roadster dubbed the "Yellow Peril." It was the car in which she drove across the country from California to Connecticut in the summer of 1924 (quite a feat in and of itself for those days).  Remarkably, the little vehicle still exists in the collection of the Forney Transportation Museum of Denver, Colorado.

http://www.forneymuseum.com/attractions.htm

It is not, as one puzzled patron is reported to have asked, "the car that she disappeared in."

LTM,
Russ
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:28:50
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Re: Earhart's car

Gary Geivet wrote:

> I think it was a Cord... 

True.  Earhart also owned a 1936 Cord Phaeton, though I don't believe she was around long enough to ever give it a nickname.  She posed with her new car and her new plane in a rather well-known photo that was later used to illustrate the cover of an AE biography from author Doris L. Rich.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1560987251/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-1908792 -3913532#reader-link

The image was later recreated in the spring of 1992 for the opening of NBC News Productions' 2 hour syndicated documentary special "Untold Stories: The Search for Amelia Earhart."  A derelict Lockheed 12 "Electra Jr." did its best impression of NR16020 while actress/hostess Lindsay Wagner substituted for AE.  The auto in question actually stood in for itself, having survived (after a fashion) in the hands of a private collector who incorporated most of it into the rebuild of another similar model Cord.

LTM,
Russ
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 19:08:49
From:         George Rat Werth
Subject:      Everything You Never Wanted To Know About Occam's Razor

Decided to learn more about Occam's Razor --

I found the following at:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor<

Oh, My! Talk about 'Completed Staff Work!'

George
TIGHAR member # 2630S
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 2004 19:09:32
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Solar Stills

Hermann wrote:

> If  anyone is interested in producing water using solar stills why not ask
> any  military pilot ? It's part of their training. Digging holes and making
> solar stills is part of pilot survival training is all the world's air
> forces. They  also learn how to catch birds, kill them and cook them.

Herman, apparently some pilots go through different training such as how to pick up a French Moroccan girl without speaking the language, Berlitz works everywhere, how to not remember what your married buddies did in downtown Berlin, how to unwrap a Tahitian sarong, and to never give out a home address. I missed catching birds.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:09:34
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: Noonan's car

No, the kind of car Noonan drove has nothing to do with his fate. But it is interesting to observe that we now have three interesting cars. We have a picture of Noonan's Terraplane. We have a picture of AE's "Yellow Peril", the only Kissel Gold Bug surviving and kept in a museum. And we have a picture (at least I have) of AE's one and only Cord, the one she is pictured with in front of her Lockheed Electra. The only thing still missing is AE's Lockheed 10E Electra.

LTM
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:09:59
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: survival training

For Alan

I don't know about picking up Moroccan girls or others did in Berlin etc. Survival training is something combat pilots in NATO air forces have to go through in this part of the world. They are not supposed to sit and wait for the helicopter to pick them up these days but are trained to walk back and live off the land if necessary. They tell me that the killing of the chicken is the worst part of their  training, not the firing of a burst of 20 mm or a Sidewinder at an other airplane.

LTM
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:10:47
From:         Rusty Metty
Subject:      Re: Amelia goes to E-Bay

> From Herman De Wulf
>
> Successful bidders will join the ship's crew.... In other words :
> they are expected to pay for having to work !
> Most people I know expect to be paid for doing any work.

Working vacations are very popular and getting more so. TIGHAR already engages members in them although, perhaps not in name. I think an Ebay auction is an obtuse way to go about it, however the concept as a fundraiser is sound. Many Americans like to roll up our sleeves...even on vacation.

Rusty
Seattle
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:11:28
From:         Rusty Metty
Subject:      Re: Gallagher and his clues

Ric said:

> in my experience, pressing anecdotal witnesses for
> more recollections than they were able to produce in the initial
> interview only encourages what we call helpful witness syndrome
> Anecdotal recollections are notoriously unreliable at best and the
> more the memory is flogged for details the more likely it is to come
> up with details of its own invention.

...I've been bothered that Emily was asked 'do you know of an airplane ?' (paraphrase) at the onset of her interview. At least that's the way it's put on the website. Maybe 'do you remember anything unusual on the beach ?' would have been less suggestive. It sounds like 'airplane' was suggested the way the interview reads on the site.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:12:26
From:         Jim Dix
Subject:      Re: Noonan's car

For Herman

The picture is not that great and blowing it up more does not help much, but the  other car appears to be a '37 - '38 ish Buick or other GM make of that vintage. That's not my era.

Several years ago, maybe 1999 or so this picture first appeared on the TIGHAR website, and at the time I thought the Terraplane was said to be Fred's. It certainly fits him more than a Buick 4 door sedan! But the other car could be anyone's, hauling stuff to the plane. Perhaps Ric has some information that I missed on Fred's car. What was the car involved in the accident that gave him his reputation for drinking?

Nice diversion, but I don't know how it helps to find Amelia.

How's the radio work coming?

LTM,

Jim Dix
   2132
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:22:44
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Noonan's car

Herman De Wulf said:  "The only thing still missing is AE's Lockheed 10E Electra."

Not to mention AE herself, and Fred.

LTM, who leaves out no one
Dennis McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:08:17
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Survival training

Herman, I was having you on of course. I went through both winter survival and jungle survival. Trapping, killing, and cooking a possum was not that difficult. Eating it was nearly impossible. It would be my last choice. Insects are high in protein (sorry Pat) but I have never been that hungry. During winter survival I was starved......... for Oreo cookies, fig Newtons and  Hershey bars. Fortunately we were able to catch fish and find berries.

There are countless stories of successful survival thanks to the great training we all went through. There all also a few tragic results where the  person did not attempt to use his skills for whatever reason.

I have often wondered about Earhart and Noonan and what they may or may not have done in order to survive. I have not come across anything in their background indicating any survival training or even camping experiences. Both  may well have had skills we are not aware of, however.

I think that even attempting to second guess them would be futile. What action one person might take versus that of another could vary considerably. Injuries, if any, would be a factor. Mental attitude another, such as belief  they were about to be found or that it was not likely they would ever be discovered. Water, shelter and food would be upper most on their list but the question is how able they were to accomplish those goals.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:08:44
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Roofing material

Chuck Boyle says:

> There's a sequencing problem here that's really pretty
> maddening.
>
> 1. Gallagher dies in 1941.
>
> 2. Evans and Moffitt report seeing a tank, some posts, maybe some canvas
> somewhere around the Seven Site in about 1945.  No house, no corrugated.
>
> 3. Laxton reports the "house built for Gallagher" somewhere around the Seven
> Site in 1949.
>
> 4. In 2001 we record corrugated of two different types in two different
> locations at the Seven Site -- one clearly associated with the tank,
> the other  on the ridge that overlooks it.

I certainly agree that there's something wrong.  I don't know what Laxton saw but I don't think there ever was a "house built for Gallagher".  He may have seen the tank with posts and corrugation (which replaced the canvass seen by Evans and Moffit?).   By 1945 the corrugation laying on the ground up on the ridge may have been reduced to rusted fragments and not easily noticed.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:09:18
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Chance of a lifetime

Pat Gaston writes:

> My guess is that the Kiribati would have sold
> it to the highest bidder, but I'd like to have Ric's thoughts on this
> scenario.

Of course there's no way to know what would have actually happened had that happy circumstance arisen and there's no way to know what might happen if we someday, to our surprise, discover a more or less intact Electra in the deep water just off the reef - but I can tell you that we've contemplated the possibility and discussed it with Kiribati authorities.  Our recommendation, which was well-received by the powers that be, is that any artifacts which can be conclusively identified as being from the Electra (or an essentially intact aircraft) be gifted by the Republic of Kiribati to the people of the United States for conservation, preservation and exhibition at our nation's repository for artifacts which are significant in American history - the Smithsonian Institution.  That, in our view, would be the best way to avoid having the artifacts embroiled in what would otherwise be an ugly circus of litigation.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:09:51
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Andrew McKenna asks:

> Have we ever calculated the volume of the water collection tank at the 7
> site?   I'm sure we have the dimensions somewhere.

I don't think we ever calculated that but the tank is roughly one meter square and one meter deep.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:10:33
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Survival training

Herman says:

> They tell me that the killing of the chicken
> is the worst part of their  training, not the firing of a burst of 20
> mm or a Sidewinder at an other airplane.

That pretty much tells you all you need to know about modern warfare.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:12:11
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Gallagher and his clues

Rusty Metty says:

> ...I've been bothered that Emily was asked 'do you know of an airplane
> ?' (paraphrase) at the onset of her interview. At least that's the way
> it's put on the website. Maybe 'do you remember anything unusual on
> the beach ?' would have been less suggestive. It sounds like
> 'airplane' was suggested the way the interview reads on the site.

That's not what happened and that's not he way it reads on the website. It's all explained at
http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/15_Carpentersdaught/15_Interviews.html

We try to be very careful not to lead the witness.  In this case, it appears that our translator may have alerted her to the fact that we were interested in an airplane.  Here's the pertinent excerpt from Tom's initial interview with Emily.

> TK: Your father is kind of a famous man to us, because we're trying to
> find that box he built.
>
> ES: [smiles, gets photocopies out of a folder] Here is his picture,
> and a picture of my mother. [we examine, comment, Barb takes a
> picture]
>
> TK: We are all interested about the bones in the box. Can you tell us
> something about the circumstances of that day?
>
> ES: The bones were found in the sea on Nikumaroro. There was a boat
> that was wrecked, but that boat belonged to New Zealand and that part
> of the island was named for New Zealand. Where the boat was on the
> reef. Not too far from there, is where the plane came down. [shown map
> at this point, she indicates area north of Norwich City on reef]
>
> [Up to this point the interviewers had not said a word about an
> airplane, just the box, the bones, and her father. However, Foua
> Tofiga had talked with Emily, arranging for the interview, and later
> recalled that he had mentioned that we were interested in bones and an
> airplane.]

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:12:31
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Gallagher and his clues

Ric,

During the interview with Emily did she recall and/or mention a bad storm happening prior to her hearing about/seeing the plane on the reef edge?
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:13:25
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Noonan's car

Jim Dix says:

> Perhaps Ric has some information that I missed on Fred's car. What was
> the car involved in the accident that gave him his reputation for drinking?

It was Fred Goerner, not the car accident, that gave Noonan his reputation for drinking.  The accident was on April 4, 1937 and the photo was taken on May 20, 1937 so I'd guess that the car in the photo is one that Fred bought to replace the one wrecked in the accident.

> Nice diversion, but I don't know how it helps to find Amelia.

Me neither.

> How's the radio work coming?

I worked on it very steadily throughout September and October but then the money ran out and the mortgage company said they weren't particularly interested in the Post Loss Radio Study so I had to devote time to fund-raising.  I'm hoping to be able to get back to working on the Study full time by the 15th of this month and have the draft finished by the end of January.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:01:09
From:         Ric Campbell
Subject:      Interview with Emily

Ted Campbell asks

> During the interview with Emily did she recall and/or mention a bad storm
> happening prior to her hearing about/seeing the plane on the reef edge?

No, but don't take my word for it.  Transcripts of the interviews with Emily are on the website.

http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/15_Carpentersdaught/15_Interviews.html
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:30:45
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Survival training

>  From Alan Caldwell
> I have often wondered about Earhart and Noonan and what they may or may not
> have done in order to survive. I have not come across anything in their
> background indicating any survival training or even camping experiences.

Earhart spent quite a lot of time camping in a national park.

Th' WOMBAT

**********************

??
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:31:26
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Roofing material

> From Ric
> Chuck Boyle says:
>>   By 1945 the
>> corrugation laying on the ground up on the ridge may have been
>> reduced to rusted fragments and not easily noticed.

Very unlikely.  As long as it wasn't immersed in salt water.  Hundred year old corrugated iron sheeting is still usable today, even after being nailed to a roof on a factory for all that time.

In a salt environment though, once the rust begins to get under the coating, whether it be red oxide or galvanised zinc, the rust sets in.

Iron shipped to the islands as part of PISS would not have rusted out completely by 1945.  Iron shipped by Arundel may have if it had been dropped in the lagoon.

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:32:44
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Back then Gilligan and the other PISS people would have been measured in foots and inches rather than metres.  If it was 3x3x3 we have 9 cubic foots.

Assuming 9 cubic feet, we have around 550 imperial gallons.  Gilligan and the islanders would have measured water in imperial gallons rather than litres, and probably didn't even know US gallons (like US English in computing) existed.

Had the tank been there for our poor old castaway, and if there was sufficient sheeting available to divert rain into it, a few good tropical showers filling the tank once, would have given them plenty of water for two people for a year, even on Niku.

Th' WOMBAT

*****************************

Gilligan? Foots?
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:33:43
From:         Al Hillis
Subject:      Re: Survival training

Herman, I found the hardest part for me was just trying to catch the darn thing.

Al Hillis

Herman says:

> They tell me that the killing of the chicken
> is the worst part of their  training, not the firing of a burst of 20
> mm or a Sidewinder at an other airplane.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:34:04
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Amelia and survival technique

Some members asked if AE ever had any survival training. Although not a training session, Gore Vidal recalled a conversation between Amelia and Gene Vidal. Gene was asking her about what part of the world flight scared her the most, and she thought at first the jungle. Then , says Vidal, when asked about flying across the Pacific she replied with "Oh, there are always islands".  Gene Vidal and Amelia discussed how you would survive and what would you could do if there was no water.

"and if there was no water, you would have to make a sunstill and extract salt from the sea water and how was that done?"

Survival , either in the jungle or on an island, were "thoughts in her head". I have no idea what a sunstill would look like.

See "East to Dawn", Susan Butler, p.384-385

LTM,
Ron Bright
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:34:39
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      X-Ray fluoroscopy

Saw this article in the November issue of Wired magazine. Can this be of use to TIGHAR?

"Figuring out what something is made of - its actual chemical composition - often requires grinding up or liquefying the specimen under analysis. Now researchers have a less destructive option: handheld scanners that shoot out radiation and get a periodic table's worth of readout back. Trekkers would say the device looks like a phaser but works like a tricorder. The real-world tech is called x-ray fluoroscopy. Radioactivity shakes electrons out of their orbits around atomic nuclei; when other electrons slide in to fill the gaps, they spit out different amounts of energy depending on what elements they comprise. XRF scanners pick that energy up and, on a tiny screen, list the ingredients (any of 30 different elements). Archaeologists can get the composition of, say, a clay pot and use it to trace trade routes, without reducing the pot to shards. It's also being applied in geology to map deposits of ores or oil, in chemistry to scan industrial products, and in forensics for trace analysis. The technique itself is 50 years old, but past XRF devices were turbolift-sized. Niton's scanners fit in a carry-on (good luck getting them through airport security), and future upgrades might expand the handheld's ability to detect other elements as well. As usual, scientists get all the good toys. How about a consumer version to use around the house?"  - Ryan Sommer

blue skies, jerry hamilton
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:35:04
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Noonan's car

AE's yellow Kissel roadster - the one she called the Yellow Peril - is in the Forney Transportation Museum here in Denver.

Oh no! Wait a minute - could Yellow Peril have been a cryptic reference to the 1937 flight? Spying on the - albeit politically incorrect - yellow peril?

ltm
jon
2266
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:42:22
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Survival training

Alan Caldwell says:

>> I have often wondered about Earhart and Noonan and what they may or may not
>> have done in order to survive. I have not come across anything in their
>> background indicating any survival training or even camping experiences.

Expedition veteran and EPAC member Lonnie Schorer has been working for some time on a research project aimed at determining what survival training may have been available to Earhart.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:45:58
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Roofing material

Ross Devitt says:

> Iron shipped to the islands as part of PISS would not have rusted out
> completely by 1945.  Iron shipped by Arundel may have if it had been
> dropped in the lagoon.

Interesting conjecture.  Whoever moved the corrugation to the Seven Site, it almost certainly was rafted down the lagoon.  It would be virtually impossible to do that without getting it wet.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:00:16
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Ross Devitt says:

> Had the tank been there for our poor old castaway, and if there was
> sufficient sheeting available to divert rain into it, a few good
> tropical showers filling the tank once, would have given them plenty
> of water for two people for a year, even on Niku.

The tank dates from the colonial period.  There's no doubt about that. It says "Police - Tarawa" on the side and there are identical tanks in the old village.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:13:12
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: X-Ray Fluoroscopy

Jerry Hamilton forwards:

> "Figuring out what something is made of - its actual chemical
> composition - often requires grinding up or liquefying the specimen
> under analysis. Now researchers have a less destructive option:
> handheld scanners that shoot out radiation and get a periodic table's
> worth of readout back.

In the past, when we've needed to know what stuff was made of we've been able to find someone with a Scanning Electron Microscope.  That involves taking a small sample for testing, but that has never been a problem.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:13:38
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Survival training

For the Wombat

See Carl Dunrud's book, "Let's Go", who described Amelia and GP's visit to their Double Dee Ranch in Wyoming in the summer of 1934.  One photo shows AE standing by a makeshift tent/lean-to with some canvas hanging over crossed boards. Her clothes are spread out on sticks, boots upside down, etc. A nice campfire is burning. So the outdoors and camping were not foreign to her.

Dunrud, who was commissioned to build Amelia a cabin near Meeteetse, Wy for her use after her world flight. Interestingly, AE sent Dunrud many gifts including a .22 Winchester rifle and a bamboo fishing pole in an aluminum case. (Maybe AE had an extra one on the Electra!) The town of Meeteetse has an annual "Earhart" Festival and visitors are taken up to the campsite, where remains of her cabin still remain.

LTM,
RON BRIGHT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:13:52
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Seven site

For the Corrugated Crowd --

One thing to keep in mind (I don't know if this has been discussed before  in this thread) is that according to the analysis done for us by the US Naval Academy's metals lab, the corrugated down by the tank was galvanized but the corrugated up on the ridge apparently was not.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:14:05
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Survival training

One thing worth noting is that according to Amelia, My Courageous Sister, AE did a good bit of recreational clam digging on the Massachusetts  shore.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:14:44
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Survival training

Ross Devitt writes:

> Earhart  spent quite a lot of time camping in a national  park.

Thanks, Ross. Hope the ranger taught her how to open a coconut. <G>  One thing going for them I think is that folks were a lot more capable back then  than now. For those not alive in the thirties you won't understand.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:17:05
From:         Dale Intolubbe
Subject:      Re: Seven site

> From Ross Devitt
>
> Back then Gilligan and the other PISS people would have been measured
> in foots and inchs rather than metres.  If it was 3x3x3 we have 9
> cubic foots.
>
> Assuming 9 cubic feet,

3x3x3 is a little closer to 27 than 9.

LTM
Dale #2656
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:41:15
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Survival training

I can't find my Purdue stuff, but among their collection is a series of annual tickets to one of the national parks.  Apparently Earhart and perhaps her sister - I can't remember - used to go camping and hiking there regularly when she was a young woman.

I'm not suggesting she had formal survival training, but she was familiar with the outdoors at least, on a voluntary basis.  I imagine amenities in the late 20's were not a sophisticated as they are now..

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:53:18
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Seven Site

For a while around the turn of the century there were several methods in use to try to preserve the iron.  Red oxide paint was common, and as you saw in the links I posted, that is causing a heritage problem today. Zinc galvanising gradually overtook the red oxide.

It is feasible that Arundel shipped both types to the island.  By the time of PISS, it would have been galvanised iron shipped over there.

There are quite a lot of corrugated iron roofs on islands in the Pacific, and you blokes probably saw some of them in Tarawa and other places on TIGHAR expeditions.

For ease of construction, even if the house built for Gilli...  Oops, Gallagher was a simple building compared with his residence, corrugated iron would have been the simplest way to roof it and partially enclose it.

Th' WOMBAT
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:00:11
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Seven site

Dale Intolubbe, Rathdrum, ID wrote:

>> From Ross Devitt
>>
>> Back then Gilligan and the other PISS people would have been measured
>> in foots and inchs rather than metres.  If it was 3x3x3 we have 9
>> cubic foots.
>>
>> Assuming 9 cubic feet,
> 3x3x3 is a little closer to 27 than 9.
> LTM
> Dale #2656

Well, I got 3x3 right!  This chronic fatigue has played hell with my calculator....It was 50 imperial gallons - NOT 550.

So the corrected volume is around 150 gallons (167.4).

Enough for one castaway for half a year.

Of course, as i pointed out though in the first post (Had the tank been available...)  The castaway didn't have a tank.

Th' WOMBAT.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:16:01
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Re: Solar stills

The TIGHAR research bulletin, Mysteries of the Seven Site  [http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/33_SevenMysteries/ 33_SevenMysteries.html],states, "The fourth question we asked of the Seven Site was whether the hole that we noticed when we first found the site in 1996 might be where the work party buried the skull that was  later exhumed by Gallagher."

Might the feature discovered at the Seven Site actually be the remains of a solar still constructed and used by our castaway?

Roger
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:34:40
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Solar stills

Roger Kelley asks:

> Might the feature discovered at the Seven Site actually be the remains
> of a solar still constructed and used by our castaway?

Interesting question.  What makes us think that hole was left by Gallagher's exhumation of the skull is the fact that, upon excavation, it was very apparent that there had been two holes - a relatively small hole that was within, but not concentric with, a larger hole.  It's exactly what we would expect to see if, as reported:

- a work party originally buried the skull, filling in the hole they dug.
- Gallagher later exhumed the skull but didn't know precisely where to dig.
- the second, larger hole was not filled in (no need to after the skull was removed)

What arguments can be made for the hole being a solar still?

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:05:06
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Solar stills

Interesting thought.  How about a sea turtle nest?
Dan Postellon TIGHAR#2263

> From Roger Kelley
>
> The TIGHAR research bulletin, Mysteries of the Seven Site
> [http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/33_SevenMysteries/
> 33_SevenMysteries.html], states, "The fourth question we asked of the
> Seven Site was whether the hole that we noticed when we first found the
> site in 1996 might be where the work party buried the skull that was
> later exhumed by Gallagher."
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:39:11
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Solar stills

Dan Postellon asks

>   How about a sea turtle nest?

No way.  Sea turtle nests are dug in sand out on the beach.  This hole was dug in coral rubble far inland from the beach.  A turtle would need flippers of steel to dig a hole like this.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:39:30
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Solar stills

>Interesting thought.  How about a sea turtle  nest?

The sea turtle probably dug the hole to hide in while being pursued by a whole crowd of Tridacna.

Actually, the turtles nest way out on the beach; we've seen them.  The Seven Site hole is way too far inland, and way to big, to be a turtle  nest.

LTM (who begs to be preserved from wild Tridacna)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:03:14
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Solar stills

Sounds like a solar still to me.  Big hole for the still, little hole for the collecting pot.

> From Ric
>
> Roger Kelley asks:
>> Might the feature discovered at the Seven Site actually be the remains
>> of a solar still constructed and used by our castaway?
>
> Interesting question.  What makes us think that hole was left by
> Gallagher's exhumation of the skull is the fact that, upon excavation,
> it was very apparent that there had been two holes - a relatively small
> hole that was within, but not concentric with, a larger hole.  It's
> exactly what we would expect to see if, as reported:
> - a work party originally buried the skull, filling in the hole they
> dug.
> - Gallagher later exhumed the skull but didn't know precisely where to
> dig.
> - the second, larger hole was not filled in (no need to after the skull
> was removed)
>
> What arguments can be made for the hole being a solar still?
>
> LTM,
> Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:18:45
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Solar stills

> From  Ric
>
> Dan Postellon asks
>
>>   How about a sea turtle  nest?
>
> No way.  Sea turtle nests are dug in sand out on the  beach.  This hole
> was dug in coral rubble far inland from the  beach.  A turtle would
> need flippers of steel to dig a hole like  this.

A Jurassic sea turtle?

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:23:06
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Solar stills

Dan Postellon says:

> Sounds like a solar still to me.  Big hole for the still, little hole
> for the collecting pot.

(from http://www.desertusa.com/mag98/dec/stories/water.html)
"One of the most significant survival tools created in the last 40 years...There are only 2 essential components to constructing the Solar Still -- a container to catch the water and a 6 x 6-footsheet of clear plastic."

If the hole at the Seven Site is a solar still it was not dug by the castaway whose bones Gallagher found in 1940 and must have been dug sometime since 1964.  The island was abandoned in 1963.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:24:50
From:         James Chapel
Subject:      Re: Solar stills

I have been involved in warm to hot arid climate survival products and techniques for many years. I have practiced and taught the techniques. Here are some lessons learned and rules to apply when one is attempting to survive for more than 3 days at ambient temperatures in excess of 90 degrees F.

Survival equals will to survive
Survival equals knowledge of survival techniques
Survival equals pre-planning
Survival equals equipment
Survival equals practice

My experience is that very few people, especially civilians and most military personnel including pilots, who may end up in survival situations know these rules.

I wrote this because of the talk about 'solar stills.' Yes, done properly they will work, but just barely. The use of a clear plastic sheet (35 to 40 sq. ft.) when properly arranged will yield about a quart of water a day all conditions for its use being nominal. Any other material, such as canvas or parachute cloth, will not work. These types of material acts as an evaporative cooler!

I doubt AE and FN had clear plastic sheeting.

J. Chapel
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:33:18
From:         Hue Miller
Subject:      HF DF additional facts

Herewith some information and  quotes from a US Navy manual together with some comments from me.

The manual is " Ser. No. 3604  INSTRUCTION BOOK for MODEL DU RADIO DIRECTION FINDING EQUIPMENT Frequency Range 220 to 8000 KCS [ Aircraft Use ]  ......By BENDIX RADIO CORPORATION.....Dated February 12, 1938"

1. First, on the general issue of aircraft high-frequency ( "HF" ) as compared to low frequency / medium frequency ( "LF" and "MF" ) direction finding:

By the time WW2 started, the Navy was no longer buying the HF-capable DU, and a new model, the DU-1 was being procured. This model tuned only 200 - 1500 kHz ( "kHz"  is modern terminology for obsolete terminology "kcs." ) in 3 bands as compared to the DU (no number suffix)  5 bands or wave ranges.

Why this "may" be germane to AE:

The photo in the Long book of a Bendix rep showing AE a "df adapter" (also called "coupler"; in fact the Navy manual calls it a "coupler" ) which looks identical to the Navy DU, EXCEPT: the Navy DU may be a simplified production. The DU's round loop is permanently attached to the top surface of the coupler unit, while in the AE photo unit, the loop could apparently be mounted separately, and either turned manually at the loop location or manually at its remoted location by means of a hydraulic system and interconnect tubing and wiring. The cleared top surface of the Bendix unit shown in the AE photo did allow the unit to be mounted either to a table underneath or a ceiling overhead By some educated guesstimating, I reckon the production count of the latter, non-HF versions of the Navy loop to be 5 or 6 to 1 to the earlier, if I can estimate the DU production to be very roughly around 5000.  Clearly the US Navy abandoned the HF feature as  not worthwhile for any Navy aircraft. ( The Navy later in WW2 went to UHF (ultrahigh frequency ) aircraft navigation beacons that were both secure from enemy interception and use, more reliable without the HF problems, and did not require the jeweler's skills in operation. )

2. In one of the previous rounds of posts on DF, I disputed the statement that the earlier, very simple Bendix DF loop, which simply attached to the aircraft's main receiver without any kind of coupler box, could actually work up beyond the usual frequencies used for DF, all the way up to the HF "shortwave" band. I see from the DU manual that the loop itself uses one the same wiring element for the whole range of 220 - 8000 kHz. This DU loop itself while not identical to the Bendix "civilian" loop, is exactly similar in operation. Thus, there is apparently no "rule" other than the usual  way of doing things,  to say that the single Bendix LF-MF loop / no coupler, sold to prewar aviation market,  could not be tried or used on HF.

The result of this is that, we cannot say that to be prepared to employ HF-DF on her trans Pacific flight, AE necessarily HAD to have the Bendix-DU-Long's photo device in her aircraft.  We cannot determine for certain what kind of df equipment she had.

3.  The following paragraph from the DU manual is interesting enough that I  quote it in its entirety, with my own comments in [brackets].

" 5-3.  HIGH FREQUENCY DIRECTION FINDING

     The greatest obstacle to high frequency direction finding in flight is the generally observed regular rhythmic fading in and out of signal from an approaching or receding station.   [ Not that strictly "rhythmic", in my experience. ] This is due to the continuously changing phase relation, with change in distance, between the direct and reflected or "sky" waves. This regular fading is often noticeable, even at short distances, while taking minimum [null or minimum signal point] bearings, due to balancing out by the loop of most of the direct wave [ i.e. successful null point on direct-wave part of signal ], while it [loop] is still susceptible to a considerable vertical reflection of the high frequency from the Kennelly-Heaviside Layer. This fading interferes with fixed loop [ non rotatable aircraft loop antenna ] homing, since the pilot cannot readily tell the difference between a minimum due to fading and a minimum due to plane heading, unless careful average readings are obtained with the aid of an output [ signal strength ] meter. [ Naturally, for a "fixed loop aircraft", swinging  the direction of the plane may become inconvenient, if one has to repeatedly perform the same maneuver because of  indeterminate df-ing results. But the same factors of skill, repetition, and exasperation apply, I think, even when the aircrew person only has to "swing" the loop instead of the whole plane. - Also, I would add, the output meter sounds like a good idea, but in my own admittedly limited experience, not strictly necessary - and in light of constantly changing reception, might prove even more confusing than just going by mental averaging and judgment. AE's receiver of course, in any case, had no signal -strength output meter.]

The best method to obtain definite (although broad) bearing indications under these uncertain conditions is to rapidly and continuously rotate the loop over a period of time, with the SELECTOR switch in the D[irection] position, and to note the average direction of the bright [ colored ] half of the loop for the strongest signal during each revolution. [ model DU loop offers directional sense as well as simple degrees bearing information. However, the DIRECTION sense requires use of an additional "sense" antenna of at least a few feet of wire, at the same time as the loop is functioning. ] This method sometimes suffices to enable rough homing at a distance, despite insufficient altitude, and it has been successfully been used to locate other aircraft in flight, even under adverse conditions."

[ I do not know what "adverse conditions" here refers to; but it would be best to my argument that it refers to adverse df conditions when a distinct df null - indicating "bearing", could not be gotten.]

[ What is interesting about this advice is, that if a Navy instructor had counseled AE and FN, he would have likely said something like, "If you can't seem to get a null, like around sunset or sunrise or from whatever other problem, just drop it.  Set the coupler to DIRECTION instead of BEARING, keep swinging the loop around till you get an idea of the direction of the signal, keep doing this until you've narrowed down the direction as best you can, although it will be kind of broad, and then head in that direction." ]

[ Did AE and FN have this kind of training? It doesn't seem like it, from their comments and lack of any success with the loop at Lae and near Howland.  I note, however, that IF the plane was equipped only with the earlier, civilian Bendix loop antenna, (without any coupler-switcher such as the DU device), the "DIRECTION"  feature is not available at all! Only the "BEARING" - i.e. only the "null point" - search is possible. ]

[ Now to continue: ]

    " If the transmitter emitting the high-frequency signals employs a vertical antenna, bearings generally get sharper as the airplane approaches it. In the case of  other types of antennas, the contrary [ ! ] may obtain. Thus, an appreciable error may result at close range in a bearing taken by one plane on another which is transmitting on a fixed antenna with unsymmetrical lead-in.  A trailing transmitting antenna would be preferable; however, intermediate frequencies [i.e. conventional LF-MF ] should be employed for most accurate and dependable bearings."

[ This is saying the transmit station, the one being "homed" on, should use an antenna with only one wave "polarization". This is a vertical mast or if topped by horizontal wires, it should have the form of a "T", for the bearing gotten by the receiving station to be most distinct.  Did Lae and the Itasca have this form of antenna? I say Lae "probably" did; however I would wager the Itasca did NOT, as the usual ship's wire antenna was a mast to mast wire, with a downlead to the "radio shack" radio room. Another factor that "may" have made AE's job harder. ]

   " In case high-frequency bearings must be followed, be sure of plenty of altitude ( at least 2500 feet for 50 miles,  9000 feet for 100 miles distance, plane-to-ground, and check direction on D [ coupler DIRECTION setting ] frequently."

[ Were AE and FN aware of this advice also? ]

    "Considerable remains to be learned about the relative value and best methods of high frequency direction finding, and pilots are urged to determine its value and limitations by actual tests whenever conditions permit. On the basis of such experience, it is believed that each pilot, for himself, will learn to discriminate between dependable and doubtful high-frequency bearings."

[ Here's another interesting quote: ]

"D - DIRECTION ( approximate, but unilateral ) setting: ...When the loop and fixed  [ "sense" ] antenna components  are properly matched  [i.e. "set  up" ],  the indication of direction will always be unmistakable."

[ Get that. UNMISTAKABLE. Perhaps not very closely defined in terms of degrees, but usable - EVERY TIME. Pity that no one trained AE and FN on this - not even the tech at Lae, apparently, knew enough about HF-DF to advise her to fall back on this. ]

[ Also - the following relates to the speculation that AE's receiver knob may have been set to "AVC" - automatic volume control - which may have evened out the signal level enough to completely squash  or level the  received signal level  enough to  render indefinable  any "null" minimum signal point: ]

     "The use of AUTOmatic volume control  (AVC) in the receiver is generally undesirable for direction finding as it prevents normal change in signal strength with loop direction. MANUAL volume control should be used."

[ I conclude, use of AVC is "undesirable" but not fatal to DF procedure. Its use "prevents NORMAL change " in your headphone volume ( a way of saving your eardrums ) but does not totally eliminate it. This tallies with my own  small experiments in HF-DF. I suggest, as I have before, the "AVC inadvertently left on" is NOT any explanation for the failure of AE's DF attempts at Lae and Howland. "

End of quotes from the manual.

This also left me wondering: why was the use of HF DF even relied on for the flight? Surely the Itasca had LF transmitting capability.  The only advantage I could see, is that after getting a DF position, she could change more rapidly back to the communication channel of 6210 with minimum band-change and tuning knob cranking. I don't know if that's much of an advantage at all.  If the reasoning was that by using HF's sky-wave reflection to get a homing signal to her over greater distances than possible by LF-MF, then she was woefully unprepared to properly use the equipment.

Does this contribute anything or further muddy the waters? I don't know. I feel confused.

If any of this material is wanted for the TIGHAR resource base, I can photocopy it, or in some months, scan it.  - Hue Miller
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:33:38
From:         Hue Miller
Subject:      AE plane DF loop

Sorry to ask an elementary question- but: was the loop antenna on the plane, rotatable or fixed in place? Do we in fact know that it even was rotatable? -Hue Miller
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:07:46
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: survival

If Earhart and Noonan had adequate provisions such as condensed food -- malted milk tablets and chocolate enough to last several weeks, a  rebreather outfit which manufactures drinking water by condensing  breath, a two man rubber raft, flares and a bright orange kite they  should have been OK until they could begin their own survival  techniques. Something is not adding up.

At least that was reported as coming from Putnam and Mantz by the  Sydney orning Herald on July 6, 1937 on page 10.On the same page a Mr. M___ W. Stephens, Lockheed test pilot, in Sydney said the plane could have floated indefinitely if, "provision had been made to seal the empty fuel tanks quickly." I'm not clear how that was to be done. So if the plane was washed off the reef relatively intact, how far would "indefinitely" have taken it? The paper also contained several items of signals being heard but I am sure Ric has better information on that than I do.

Alan
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

Putnam, of course, had no way of knowing what was aboard the plane when it left Lae.  About all we can say is that it was apparently his  impression that those items were aboard when the plane left Miami.

The question of how long the plane would float if washed off the reef depends, I would think, on how much damage it sustained in the process of getting washed off the reef.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:23:38
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: HF DF additional facts

Hue Miller asks:

> This also left me wondering: why was the use of HF DF even relied on
> for the flight?

What evidence do we have that it was?
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:35:40
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: AE plane DF loop

Hue Miller asks:

> was the loop antenna
> on the plane, rotatable or fixed in place? Do we in fact know that
> it even was rotatable?

We know for a fact that it was rotatable.  There is newsreel footage of the loop being rotated while the plane is on the ground.  It was a manually-operated system that fits the description and appearance of the Bendix MN-5.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:43:51
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      IMPORTANT Forum Changes

After a lengthy and detailed review we have decided to make some important changes in the way the Earhart Forum is administered.

Since its inception in December 1997, subscription to the Earhart Forum has been free to any and all who wish to sign up.  We have always rationalized the considerable cost to TIGHAR in maintaining and moderating the forum by reasoning that, after seeing how we go about our work,  a large percentage of subscribers would become members of the organization.  Over the past seven years, forum readership has gown steadily and now numbers nearly 800 but, unfortunately, only 137 (17.5%) are TIGHAR members and about half of them were members prior to 1997.

As the scope and diversity of TIGHAR's operations has grown, and the demands on our time have increased, the relative cost of maintaining and moderating the forum without a corresponding increase in TIGHAR membership, has become unacceptably high.  Reluctantly, we must take steps that will allow us to continue what we believe to be a useful, informative and entertaining service for everyone who is interested in the Earhart mystery.

Effective January 1, 2005, anyone will be be able to subscribe to the Earhart Forum for free for 30 days. At the end of 30 days new subscribers will be able to choose whether they wish to:

A. Join TIGHAR ( free subscription will become a benefit of TIGHAR membership)
B. Continue to receive the forum at a subscription cost of $5 per month via automatic credit card charge.
C. Terminate their subscription.

This change does not effect current TIGHAR members at all, nor does this change force anyone to join TIGHAR in order to participate fully in the forum.  A basic Associate Membership in TIGHAR ($55/yr) is only slightly less than the non-member forum subscription rate ($60/yr). We'll consider all non-members currently subscribed to the forum to be new subscribers as of January 1 so if you're reading this and you're not yet a TIGHAR member you'll have until February 1 to decide what you want to do.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:59:12
From:         Alfred Hendrickson
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

FWIW; in my opinion, these are good changes. I ask non-members, please, open your checkbooks and support the work you are participating in. $55 / annum is inexpensive philanthropy.

LTM (Let's be TIGHAR Members),
Alfred Hendrickson #2583
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:36:32
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

And tax deductible!

> From Alfred Hendrickson: FWIW; in my opinion, these are good changes.
> I ask non-members, please, open your checkbooks and support the work
> you are participating in. $55 / annum is inexpensive philanthropy. LTM
> (Let's be TIGHAR Members), Alfred Hendrickson #2583
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:37:28
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

TIGHAR is a 501(C)(3) organization so aren't the new subscribers able to take a tax deduction for their membership?

Alan

********************************

Absolutely.

P
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:47:40
From:         Jack Thomas
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

> After a lengthy and detailed review we have decided to make some
> important changes in the way the Earhart Forum is administered.

So, now TIGHAR will only entertain discussion with those that financially support them, and therefore their theory?  So much for the value of alternative viewpoints.

Consider the following quote from Ric, dated 4/18/01 (from the forum archives):
-----------
"I think truth is better served by free and open discussion than by proprietary studies. I think there is nothing more powerful than people who band together and willingly contribute their resources - intellectual, physical and financial -- to seek out answers, not to make a buck, but because the very process of searching for answers is enriching."
-----------

No more FREE and open dicussions then, Ric?  What happened to serving the truth?  The forum is about people contributing ideas, suggestions, facts and opinions. But, now you want people to pay to contribute?   It's unreasonable and reflects very poorly on TIGHAR's motivation.

-Jack Thomas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:48:13
From:         Ron Metty
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

I think it sounds great. I paid my dues last week after sitting on the fence for a year and I'm glad I did. $55 a year c'mon...the forum is often the most interesting thing in my day (is that bad?) Can't wait to get my packet in the mail!

Rusty Seattle
Lurked for a year and finally decided to pony up.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:48:45
From:         Jim Preston
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Good Ric, there is no free lunch !
Jim Preston
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:50:17
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Koshu, Kamoi, and Kamui

Ric, I recognize these ships whether they be two or three apparently were not involved in any area where we believe Earhart came down but for the purpose of sorting it out I found the following.

Kerry Tiller in the Forum of 2/23/01, said the Kamui and Kamoi were simply variant spellings derived from the sounds of Kanji but were the same  ship. I found both ships listed but not in any such way as to conclude Kerry was incorrect. I've queried a group who should know.

The Koshu was a transport built in a German shipyard in 1904 and launched  as SS Michael Jebsen. It became the Koshu in 1920 and may have been discontinued in 1940. It was listed as a transport in 1920 and a survey ship in 1922 and served in the Arctic.

Alan

Koshu Transport

At 1  April 1920, Koshu was classified auxiliary ship (transport) and she
re-classified  survey ship with _Matsue _
(http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://hush.gooside.com/
Text/6m/61Ma/M13gMatsu_.html#anchor392329&prev=/search?
q=Koshu+battleship&hl=en&lr=) and _Musashi _
(http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://hush.gooside.com/
name/m/Mu/Musashi/Musashi.html#anchor79501&prev=/search?
q=Koshu+battleship&hl=en&lr=) She gone  IN the arctic ocean 1922.

____________________________________

Displacement -- 2080t standard
Length -- 77.0m pp
Width -- 11.0m
Draught -- 3.7m
Machinery -- 1-shaft recipro, 2 boilers,  966ihp
Speed -- 10.3kt
Armament -- 2-8cm/40cal gun
Complement101

____________________________________

Name
Plan
Builder
Laid down
Launch
Complete
Koshu
-
Ger Howaldswerke
1904
1904
1904
Ger SS Michael Jebsen
1914.10.28 Scuttled
1914.11. 7 Captured
1915.  8.23 TR (Koshu)
1920. 4. 1 TR
1922. 4. 1 SV
1940. 4. 1 disc,  BU
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:50:54
From:         Warren Brown
Subject:      Re: Interview with Emily

I note that in Emily's interview, the comment is made that the RCS Viti was not at Gardner Island on December 7, 1941.  Yet from the ship's log: "1941 December 7  The ship arrived at Gardner Island at 8:00 a.m. en route to Fiji and departed an hour later, just long enough to drop off Johnny-the-handyman's family and 18 tins  of condensed milk at the direction of Dr. MacPherson.  The crew learned of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor while there."

LTM
Warren Brown
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:51:14
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

> Effective January 1, 2005, anyone will be able to subscribe
> to the Earhart Forum for free for 30 days.

Of those 800, how many actually post any messages?

Would there be a way to get read-only access for free?

Or have I mis-interpreted that the overhead that you're trying to cover here is administration rather than moderation?

Bill #2229
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:52:48
From:         David Johnson
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Ric, I guess I didn't know that I had to sign up to enjoy the Email talk, so
I guess you better take me off. DavyFlyer
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:26:50
From:         Pete Gray
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

The idea makes perfect sense to me.  Yes Pat, I have the new form, and will restore #2419 as soon as I can.

Happy Holidays All!
Pete
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:30:07
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Jack, you pay for TV, for your newspaper, for Internet access, for magazine subscriptions and the list goes on. Do you think hosting a web site and establishing a Forum on the Internet is free. Get real and quit whining.

As a member you are still free to contribute, rebut and whine all you want. Guys like you are a pain.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:30:48
From:         Carl Peltzer
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

It was fun and adding was even better!    If I was not in the middle of a costly divorce  and also attempting to fly once in a great while could support more    sorry for all of us but I do understand
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:31:17
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

As a long time member of TIGHAR let me thank you for joining and availing yourself of one of the most interesting and rewarding Forums on the Net. I heartily welcome you as I am sure everyone does.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:31:54
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

> From Jim  Preston
>
> Good Ric, there is no free lunch !
> Jim  Preston

Actually, Jim the lunch IS free. It is just the Forum that costs.  <G>

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:56:46
From:         Jackie Tharp
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

To Ric, Pat, and Forum

I heartily agree with all of the changes....  I sorta resent it when folks who don't accept or support our hypothesis fill the forum with useless arguments that are only meant to discredit or dissmiss our findings and progress.  They claim to be only trying to understand the facts, when they are actually just amusing themselves by tying up our time with BS...  Then to find out that the most obnoxious and closed minded contributors aren't even members.    I've long felt that the "lurkers" as they're referred to on the forum need to decide whether they support Tighar or not...  As Alan said "theres no free ride", and many have lurked for a very long time..  What's the point?

I don't wish to offend anyone, but I pay my way, I contribute to worthy causes, and I buy Tighar merchandise.  No one has to do all of these things, but GOOD GRIEF anyone can afford 55 bucks..    Sorry for the tirade, but I couldn't help myself.

LTM who didn't like wasting time on senseless BS
Jackie Tharp #2440
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:53:51
From:         Jack Thomas
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

> From Alan Caldwell
>
> Jack, you pay for TV, for your newspaper, for Internet access, for
> magazine
> subscriptions and the list goes on. Do you think hosting a web site and
> establishing a Forum on the Internet is free. Get real and quit
> whining.

You need to get real, Alan.  I'm on more than 10 other listservs, all of which are absolutely free.  In fact, I administer several academic listservs as part of my job; all of which are used to promote the FREE exchange of ideas.  Your comparison to TV, newspapers and internet access of a discussion listserv is ridiculous.

If TIGHAR wanted this list to be a fundraiser, they should have established it as such from the beginning.  The website claims that they have a sponsor who covers the cost of the l-soft subscription, so what are they charging for?  Just to stifle the voices of the non-TIGHAR members?  If that's the forum you want, then you're getting it.

And to think this forum was disparaging Nauticos for hawking chances to participate in their research!  And now TIGHAR wants to milk forumites for an absurd $5.00 per month for an email list where the vast majority of non-members don't even post.

Face it, Alan, you simply have no rebuttal to the fact that if TIGHAR wanted a "free and open" (Ric's words) forum for discussion about Earhart research, they would find other ways to raise money than charging subscription (or requiring membership) for an email listserv.

> Guys like you are a pain.

Right back at you.  But, congratulations, Alan: soon, you'll have a forum free of guys like me.  Enjoy.

-Jack Thomas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:55:11
From:         Winston Butz
Subject:      Re: forum changes

My 2 cents:
Very disapointing to see the changes to Tighar web site proposed. I'm sure SOME of the 800 people (less members) that access the Tighar web site must have contributed something of value to the discussion at one time or another. Although I'm not a paying member, I religiously read the Emails every day but I don't clutter the site unless I have something I feel can contribute. Remember Ric, the two pictures I Emailed to you 5 or 6 years ago of Amelia's plane that my Grandfather took In Hawaii, and the discussions we had regarding same? I believe the main goal the Tighar web site was started was to try and solve the A/N disappearance. I do realise that there are a lot of expenses incured, but to stifle free exchange of info and ideas defeat's the purpose of the Tighar web site. I won't bore you with financial details but $55.00 per year might mean alot to some of the non paying members. It's almost 2 weeks of food and Vodka for me. LOL. Wouldn't it be a tragedy if one of those non members who won't have access any more, has a clue that leads to the solution of the A/N mystery?

Enough said.

Wink Butz
Commack, NY
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:55:49
From:         Adam Marsland
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

I have no problem with it whatsoever.  I lurked for rather a long time before joining, but I was always aware that this forum is something that requires time and effort to moderate, and refrained from posting for that reason.

I'm a musician, and I've frequently played for crowded rooms of people where I slayed the room, people told me how great a performer I was, but never ever bought a CD.  They just didn't make a connection that they had any responsibility to support what they derived pleasure from, even though I was touring and had generally driven hundreds of miles to play the show, and put my own health at risk in doing so.  For that reason I support TIGHAR.

I hope the move gets plenty of cash for you, Ric.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:56:36
From:         Doug Rainger
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Interesting.

I don't know what the latest TIGHAR membership count is, but with forum posters having member numbers of over #2500, it seems that only a small percentage of us take advantage of this means of keeping up with the latest news of the organization.

2600+ members
137 of these on the forum
673 non-members are participants here
2500 members not on the forum listserv

These are weird numbers.

Your announcement will obviously empty the fence of sitters. Some will bolt, and others will join. I doubt many will simply subscribe to the forum. But what do I know?

How many dues paying members does TIGHAR have? Or is that a closely held secret?

> Over the past seven years, forum readership has gown steadily
> and now numbers nearly 800 but, unfortunately, only 137 (17.5%)
> are TIGHAR members and about half of them were members prior
> to1997.

LTM (who is something of a weird number herself)

Doug Rainger #1700
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:56:57
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Well said, Jackie.

Alan, #2329
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:58:39
From:         Alfred Hendrickson
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

For Jack Thomas:

I'd like to bring you into the camp, Jack. Please listen to yourself:

"So, now TIGHAR will only entertain discussion with those that financially support them, and therefore their theory?"

Jack - by paying to be a part of this Forum, you are paying for the privilege (privilege, not to be confused with right) of reading and contributing. You don't have to buy into the theory, or even like the theory, but to participate in the discussion, you now have to pay some of the freight. Any objective thinker would find no fault with that. Why do you? If participants in this Forum should not help pay for it, Jack, who should? If you don't pay your phone bill, and Ma Bell cuts you off, do you complain that they are stepping on your right to free speech?

"So much for the value of alternative viewpoints."

Alternative viewpoints are fairly plentiful. Folks on this Forum have even had to suffer some of mine. As to the value of alternative viewpoints, well, remember that we have a right to speak, but we do not have a right to be heard.

"But, now you want people to pay to contribute?"

Ric has explained pretty clearly why the change has to happen, so if, by "contribute", you mean "participate in a moderated forum that has real costs associated with it's operation", yup, it appears that that's pretty much it.

A while ago, Ric said something like: "If you are on this Forum and not contributing to TIGHAR, you are riding the bus without paying the fare." That seems abundantly sensible to me. $55 a year is about a dollar a week. It is so little, it may as well be free. I'm not on the Forbes List yet, but today, I spent a buck on a candy bar. Now, here's a question for you, Jack: Will you help pay for the Forum? If not, what's the sticking point?  I have learned plenty by reading and asking. And this group provides volumes to read, and answers questions whenever I ask them. Membership is a great value. I'm willing to pay for it and I'm happy with the transaction. Now, I was going to write something about the really cool TIGHAR baseball cap I'm gettin' myself for Christmas, but I'm stepping down off my soapbox, 'cause I may be starting to rant.

LTM, who appreciates people who pay their way, and who hopes Jack will become one of them,

Alfred Hendrickson #2583
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:59:28
From:         Chris Billings
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Lady's and Gentlemen as a "lurker" and for other reasons i have sat on the fence and looked at all arguments. Yes i am the son of someone else who is trying to unravel the mystery of the Earhart disappearance.

I for one understand all sides of the "argument" of who maybe right and who is wrong and in which direction to look. Yes it took me awhile to understand all the fact that are presented (both sides of the Hypothesis). No i am not taking sides because my dad says he is right and your wrong. I look to see the trees not the forest that we walk in. As it has opened a once closed mind.

I have looked to this site for additional information (yes and the brain storming that goes with it) and have enjoyed it's toing and froing with great delight of which i will sadly miss.

I find it a shame the this will no longer be available to me as the AUS dollar to US dollar will cost me to much to enjoy your reading.

So i wish both Pat and Ric and all the other supporters of this forum happy hunting for the great lady of our time. And yes i hope to be there when the papers come out with who found her. As the reading of the article will be worth while i am sure. So may the best team win and none of the forest chopped down to find that single tree.

LTM may we unlock the mystery.

Cheers Chris Billings.(short time lurker)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:59:50
From:         Hue Miller
Subject:      Re: HF DF Additional facts

> From Ric
>
> Hue Miller asks:
>> This also left me wondering: why was the use of HF DF even relied on
>> for the flight?
>
> What evidence do we have that it was?

HM: my mistake. I thought that was what the 6500 kHz Lae test, and the 7500 kHz Itasca signal, were about.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:00:38
From:         Scott White
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Jack Thomas wrote:

> So, now TIGHAR will only entertain discussion with those that
> financially
> support them, and therefore their theory?  So much for the value of
> alternative viewpoints.

That's a pretty harsh judgment, Jack. I'm an agnostic with regard to the TIGHAR theory, but this list and the web site have been well worth $55. That's about the cost of two large-format paperback books or 3-4 CDs, or (depending on your service) maybe a month or two of cable TV. I'm willing to pay for education and entertainment, even if it isn't precisely custom-designed to match my own opinions. I may not last as a long-term member, but I don't mind paying a little for the benefit of hearing from people who know far more than I do about something I'm interested in. If I reach a point where I've learned as much about all this as I'm likely to absorb, then I'll spend my $55 on something else. Probably CDs.

Running this list takes time and money. I charge my clients for my time, and there's no reason to expect TIGHAR or anyone else to spend their time & money running a "free speech" format to benefit other people. Yes, the free speech format may also benefit TIGHAR. I don't know if the useful information gained has been worth the time & money spent up until now. But it's TIGHAR's time and money, and it's their decision on how to use it (whom to spend it on).

Best,
-SW
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:01:06
From:         Hue Miller
Subject:      Re: AE plane DF loop

Perhaps this is old material, also: but do we have specs for the OD dimension of the Bendix MN-5, and if so, do you think it's possible to scale up carefully from a photo of the plane to see if this matches the loop size?  I don't recall if the "Long/ AE / Bendix rep" photo i referred to, shows the loop in addition to the coupler. The Navy manual i have for DU ( and DU = Navy/ Bendix civilian nomenclature RDF-1, and RDF-1 is the unit in this photo ) states loop OD is a mere 12". The loop on the plane certainly appears larger than this. (Disregarding stem length, just measuring outer diameter. )  ( Note, loop diameters are generally not interchangeable - for example the RDF-1 has one size loop only. ( Size defines its electrical (tuning ) characteristics. )

I feel that:

If AE had been using LF/ MF to hunt / home on the Itasca, at the moderate distance involved, she would not have had the problem getting a directional fix, even during sunset/ sunrise radio ionosphere instability; That with the MN-5, not getting a null on HF is understandable - but, with this model loop, there is no fallback to getting an approximate direction instead of a sharp bearing. So if you cannot get  a null / bearing, you are out-of-luck!

With the RDF-1 type ( requiring a "coupler" between loop and receiver ) if you cannot get a bearing, you can fall back to getting a "direction" clue. But perhaps with her less than strong  technology interest, she never did have installed, the more sophisticated ( and more complex to operate ) equipment shown in the "Long/ Bendix photo."  This also rules out the need to have a "sense" antenna, or to run the receiver antenna up to the coupler box to use as a sense antenna.

( I had wondered how this undesirably long inside-the-plane run of antenna wire, from the sense antenna to coupler,  was handled - and this may answer it - it wasn't! )
-Hue Miller
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:02:04
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Due to financial misfortunes, I won't be able to support the forum for a while, so, unlike Mr. Dylan, I will go gentle into that good night. Its been fun. Best of luck.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

LTM,
David Bush

****************************************

Keep in mind, folks, it's still free to all until February 1.

P
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:04:29
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Interview with Emily

Warren Brown says:

> I note that in Emily's interview, the comment is made that the RCS Viti
> was not at Gardner Island on December 7, 1941.

Yes, that's an error.  That report was written before we had access to the ship's log.  Other sources that catalog the ship's movements don't mention the brief call at Gardner.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:16:52
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

For Jack Thomas (and others)

Jack, as a member of TIGHAR's Board of Directors, as a sometime-academic,  as one who like you participates in several free listservs, and as one who's not terribly comfortable with the decision to ask Forumites to fish or cut bait, but  who's convinced it's necessary, let me just comment on your comparison between  the forum and other "academic listservs."  The difference is, I think, that  most academic listservs (a) don't handle the volume that the forum does, and (b)  more importantly, tend to have academic institutions behind them, that pick up  the expense of administering them.  TIGHAR isn't such an institution, and  has no institution to perform that function.  TIGHAR is a couple of more-or-less paid employees and a bunch of volunteers.  Adam Marsland's comparison with himself as musician is an apt one.

I share Winston Butz' concern about losing people who have ideas and information to contribute, but I don't see an alternative unless somebody can  bring in some kind of big-bucks sponsor.

LTM (who, like every parent, has to make hard decisions, and understands  the costs)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:17:59
From:         Barry Robinson
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Ric and Pat,
I think you are doing the right thing and that this is a "just and fair"  way to handle the situations.  Keep up the good work. Barry Robinson
# 2114
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:18:18
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Adam, I count you among those who figured it out. We support what we get  and don't think we have some constitutional free right to the work of others.

Glad you're part of the group.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:19:13
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Bill Leary asks:

> Of those 800, how many actually post any messages?
>
> Would there be a way to get read-only access for free?
>
> Or have I mis-interpreted that the overhead that you're trying to
> cover here is
> administration rather than moderation?

We have only about two dozen regular posters, depending on how you want to define regular. We'll continue to make the forum archives available for free via the TIGHAR website so read-only access will continue to be free to the whole world.

Yes, the overhead we're trying to cover is simply the time it takes to administer the forum.  Our feelings about the free and open exchange of information and viewpoints have not changed but we also have a responsibility to keep TIGHAR solvent and encourage membership growth. The forum has simply become too much of a financial drain on the organization to continue in its present form.

Moderation is not an issue.  TIGHAR members tend to be rather immoderate people. That's great. We welcome thoughtful, informed dissent.  Joining TIGHAR does not imply agreement with TIGHAR's hypotheses or conclusions.  Rather, it is an endorsement of the way we go about trying to figure things out.  Several dedicated and very vocal Crashed & Sankers are dues-paying members of TIGHAR of long standing - God bless 'em.  Even within our Earhart Project Advisory Council (EPAC), which some might imagine is nothing more than a cabinet of loyalists, the fur often flys (and occasionally the furniture) during our discussions of the project.

I hope everyone who is now subscribed to the forum thinks that what goes on here is worth 14 cents a day.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:19:48
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Chris, the amount is not too large for almost anyone. I would hope you would reconsider.

As to your Dad you should support him unequivocally. He is a good man and believes in what he is doing. Although he and I don't see eye to eye I respect his opinion and his dedication to his belief. whether his airplane turns out to  be what he expects or not he will still be successful in unraveling a great mystery whatever it may be.

Hang in with us.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:35:48
From:         Chris Billings
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Alan Caldwell writes to Chris Billings:

"As to your Dad you should support him unequivocally. He is a good man and believes in what he is doing."

Chris, I'll second that one.

"Hang in with us."

And that one, too.

LTM,

Alfred Hendrickson #2583
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:48:38
From:         Robert Klaus
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Ric,

I have been a paying nonmember in the past, sending in enough ($50 a year for the last two years) that I have been mistaken for a member (#2593). I've contributed because I thought the discussion was valuable, and understand that there are costs involved.

The pricing has me somewhat confused, as it will be $60 a year for just the forum, or $55 a year for the forum, the membership card and the magazine.  It would seem that either you are overcharging for forum membership, or undercharging for full membership.  However that's an internal decision for TIGHAR to make, not my concern.

My earlier voluntary contribution was just that, voluntary.

Good luck, I hope you find her, It's been fun.

Robert Klaus
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:53:35
From:         Angus Murray
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

> From:  Jackie Tharp, Chesterton, IN
>
> To Ric, Pat, and Forum
>
>     I heartily agree with all of the changes....  I sorta resent it when
> folks who don't accept or support our hypothesis fill the forum with
> useless arguments that are only meant to discredit or dissmiss our
> findings and progress.

What an amazingly paranoid view! There is not much point to a forum where no dissenting views are tolerated. This is certainly not the way science is done. If you don't like someone else's idea - then ignore it. Don't get paranoid and defensive. I have never yet seen any "useless arguments that are only meant to discredit or dissmiss  findings and progress" on the forum. Whatever the views, they are generally sincere. Mutual appreciation societies are not the best way to make progress.

> They claim to be only trying to understand the
> facts, when they are actually just amusing themselves by tying up our
> time with BS...  Then to find out that the most obnoxious and closed
> minded contributors aren't even members.

Talk about a closed mind!

    I've long felt that the
> "lurkers" as they're referred to on the forum need to decide whether
> they support Tighar or not...  As Alan said "theres no free ride", and
> many have lurked for a very long time..  What's the point?

The point is that lurkers form no additional financial burden so why be mean spirited and cut them off? All it will do is to reinforce the idea that Tighar do not have an open agenda.

> I don't wish to offend anyone, but I pay my way, I contribute to worthy
> causes, and I buy Tighar merchandise.  No one has to do all of these
> things, but GOOD GRIEF anyone can afford 55 bucks..

Whether anyone can afford it is a matter of priorities. Plenty of people have higher priorities and nothing you can say will alter that.

Regards Angus
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:56:20
From:         Eric Beheim
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

It was most gratifying to hear that forum participation will now to linked to TIGHAR membership.  From now on, when I read a posting, I will have the satifaction of knowing that the writer is serious enough about TIGHAR and its research efforts to at least be a dues paying member.

LTM (who paid her dues, too)
Eric, Naval Station San Diego
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:28:57
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

It's good to see that the reaction to TIGHAR's decision to charge for participation on the Earhart Forum is overwhelming positive.  In my book that means TIGHAR has a product people are willing to pay for, whether they agree or disagree with its theories.  That's free enterprise at work.  The Gipper would be proud!  Accepting payment and the "truth" are not mutually exclusive; authors charge for their books and producers charge for their films.  And at $5/month . . . what's that, a six-pack of beer or pack of cigarettes?   Sheesh.

As for Jack Thomas' complaint about loosing a free and open forum, well, that really doesn't wash.  No one's being denied access, just like no one is denied access to higher education - as long as you're willing to pay for it.

I'm perfectly willing to pay up and I'm grateful that we got a 5-year free ride from Ric, which is quite an accomplishment considering his ancestry. :-)

LTM, a grateful paying customer
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC

**************************************************

To be more specific about the access issue: the Forum Archives will continue to be free and open to the public. Everyone in the world will have read-only access to them.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:29:55
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Forum Query

As I understand it, after February 1 people will still be allowed to lurk on the forum, but only subscribers will be allowed to post.  Is that correct?

LTM, a long-time poster
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC

*******************************************

Not quite. Everyone, even lurkers, will have to pony up, or go to reading the Archives.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:30:56
From:         Angus Murray
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

> Running this list takes time and money. I charge my clients for my
> time, and
> there's no reason to expect Tighar or anyone else to spend their time &
> money running a "free speech" format to benefit other people.

This seems to assume that there is no benefit to Tighar. In fact there are very real benefits to Tighar and I'm sure the exercise will be counterproductive. And of course it is a little difficult to justify for those of the opinion that "information should never be held to ransom". What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

> Yes, the free speech format may also benefit Tighar. I don't know if the 
> useful information gained has been worth the time & money spent up until now.
> But it's Tighar's time and money, and it's their decision on how to use it
> (whom to spend it on).

It is indeed - but restricting the forum will save little in terms of moderating time and cut off potential sources of information, ideas, publicity and revenue. A classic false economy.

Angus.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:32:30
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Jack Thomas says

> I'm on more than 10 other listservs, all of
> which are absolutely free.  In fact, I administer several
> academiclistservs as part of my job; all of which are used to promote
> the FREE exchange of ideas.

I'd be interested to know which ones you feel are analogous to the Earhart Forum.  If they are moderated, somebody pays for the moderator's time (whether they realize it or not) unless the moderator donates his or her time after-hours.

> If TIGHAR wanted this list to be a fundraiser, they should have
> established it as such from the beginning.

We always hoped that it would be a fundraiser by encouraging membership in the organization.  Seven years of experience have shown us that we were probably naive to think it would do that entirely on a voluntary basis.  Now we're trying something different.  We'll see if it works.

It is the nature of the beast that everything we do has to have a fundraising component just as everything a for-profit business does has to be aimed at improving the bottom line.  Nonprofits that fail to understand that principle soon go belly-up.  Happens every day.  TIGHAR will celebrate its 20th anniversary next month and there have been many times during those 20 years when it was touch and go.  I won't bore you with war stories but let it suffice to say that we've learned many hard lessons about how to be responsible stewards of the money our supporters contribute.

> The website claims that they
> have a sponsor who covers the cost of the l-soft subscription, so what
> are they charging for?  Just to stifle the voices of the non-TIGHAR
> members?

Select GIS Services sponsors the cost of the l-soft subscription, for which we are deeply grateful, but the biggest forum costs are the hours it takes us to administer and reply to the postings of the subscribers every day.  About the time we started the Earhart Forum, National Geographic was running an un-moderated Earhart forum as part of their coverage of Linda Finch's recreation of the World Flight.  Anyone who remembers it will tell you that the Nat'l Geo forum quickly degenerated into a nonsensical internecine war between the various Japanese Capture factions.  By contrast, this forum has thrived and grown because careful moderating has insured that the quality of the postings attract intelligent, articulate people who are willing to participate and also  put their money where their mouth is.  But careful moderating takes time and time is money.  The new rules give everyone a 30-day free look and do not exclude anyone except those who don't feel that what goes on here is worth 14 cents a day.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:34:01
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

> From Jack Thomas
>
> ... I'm on more than 10 other listservs, all of
> which are absolutely free.  In fact, I administer several academic
> listservs as part of my job; all of which are used to promote the FREE
> exchange of ideas. ...

I also participate in and run a number of forums that are free of charge, so I understand your experience of and enthusiasm for such groups.

> ... If TIGHAR wanted this list to be a fundraiser, they should have
> established it as such from the beginning.

People learn by doing.  I don't think Ric and Pat and the gang knew what they were getting into when they started the Forum.

> ... The website claims that they
> have a sponsor who covers the cost of the l-soft subscription, so what
> are they charging for?

The time they spend teaching on the Forum and maintaining the website.  It's a huge part of their work but only a tiny portion of revenue for the organization.

> Just to stifle the voices of the non-TIGHAR
> members?

I think not--but that's because I trust Ric and Pat's testimony about their motives.  If you won't take their word for what they are trying to do, you won't take mine, either.

> And to think this forum was disparaging Nauticos for hawking chances to
> participate in their research!  And now TIGHAR wants to milk forumites for
> an absurd $5.00 per month for an email list where the vast majority of
> non-members don't even post.

800 x $55 annual dues = $44,000.  It would be a fairly helpful component in TIGHAR's annual budget.

I suppose if a benefactor wanted to donate something on the order of $30,000 per annum to keep the Forum free, TIGHAR would consider the offer.

> Face it, Alan, you simply have no rebuttal to the fact that if TIGHAR
> wanted a "free and open" (Ric's words) forum for discussion about Earhart
> research, they would find other ways to raise money than charging
> subscription (or requiring membership) for an email listserv.

The charge is for Ric and Pat's personal attention to questions.  Their time is worth money.  I'm sure that the results of TIGHAR's work will continue to be published for peer review.

> ... soon, you'll have a forum
> free of guys like me.  Enjoy.

Thanks!

LTM.
Marty #2359
****************************************************

> I suppose if a benefactor wanted to donate something
> on the order of $30,000 per annum to keep the Forum free,
> TIGHAR would consider the offer.

Uh, yeah. Any takers?

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:34:30
From:         Mike Haddock
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

For: Jack Thomas

Nothing in this world is free. This forum does serve the truth and by people who  don't always agree with one another. To suggest that this Forum should be some charity for the entertainment of others is naive.

Why should Ric & Pat bust their asses for free? Jack, do you work for free? Where does it say that they are not entitled to be paid fairly for something that most of us enjoy tremendously. If this were some BS organization I would have long since bowed out. The truth seeking you allude to, Jack, is expensive, time consuming and done by hard-working and probably modestly paid people whom I consider to be decent and dedicated people. I also consider them friends. I think you should rethink your position. I have always been a paying member of TIGHAR and I'm proud to be a member. You're in a distinct minority, Jack. And, by the way, if you really had been paying attention to the forum over the last several years as I have, you would know that our members frequently disagree on a lot of things. However, the manner in which they disagree makes me proud to be a member and better informed about the AE mystery. I have found the forum to be fair, on balance and tremendously enjoyable. I get really pissed with people taking shots at Ric & Pat over matters they don't know what the Hell they're talking about. If you find the Forum's intentions objectionable, then start your own Forum or just go away!

LTM,

Mike Haddock, #2438
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:53:58
From:         Danny Brown
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

I am all for the forum changes. Those who complain that it will "stifle input" and the "FREE exchange of ideas" (bad pun) are in no way prohibited from beginning a free forum of their own. They can spend their time, money, and energy in order to give others a chance to jump into the discussion without having to actually seriously support the effort to solve the mystery. Armchair quarterbacks are a dime a dozen. They are the ones who sit home and gripe because their team is always losing, but have never bought a ticket that might help fund a change to a better coaching staff. I'm sure we will see one of these star quarterbacks start their own free forum sometime in the near future, but you will excuse me if I don't hold my breath until it appears.

LTM (who was there at every home LSU football game for eight straight losing seasons, and also there for two SEC championships in the last three years and the National Championship in last year's Sugar Bowl.)

Danny Brown
#2426
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:55:10
From:         Doug Rainger
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

> How many dues paying members does TIGHAR have?
> Or is that a closely held secret?

We have no secrets.  Only those who have something to fear need secrets.

We assign membership numbers sequentially and, in general, do not recycle them, so the current new member numbers in the 2600s mean that, in the past 20 years, roughly 2600 people have been TIGHAR members for some period of time.

There are currently about 600 dues-paying TIGHAR members.  That's down from a high of a little over 900 in 1992 when we had our first big splash of publicity about the Earhart Project.  Those were the days before the great communications revolution - no email, no websites, no listserves.  People heard about us through the media and joined by mail.  We communicated with the membership almost exclusively by printed matter sent through the mail.  The TIGHAR website went online in 1995 and the forum was begun in December 1997.  Suddenly, information that had previously been unavailable to anyone but TIGHAR members was free for the clicking.  We saw that, and still see that, as a good thing.  But the numbers speak for themselves and there is no denying that membership suffered.  A smaller TIGHAR membership puts a greater burden on those few TIGHAR members who have the ability to make large donations and it means that a greater percentage of those large donations must go to covering general operating expenses.

As you can see from the numbers above, the 137 TIGHAR member forum subscribers represents about 23% of the current TIGHAR membership and about 463 TIGHAR members, for one reason or another, do not subscribe to the forum.  Those numbers are not particularly weird.  What IS weird is that an organization with TIGHAR's accomplishments,  reputation and international stature should have only 600 members world-wide.  There's no reason that number should not have another 0 on the end of it and, as executive director, I take the blame for that failure.  The changes in the forum are one step toward correcting the situation.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:04:49
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: HF DF Additional facts

> HM: my mistake. I thought that was what the 6500 kHz Lae test,
> and the 7500 kHz Itasca signal, were about.

Chater says nothing about what frequency was used for the Lae test. I'm not sure where the information comes from that it was carried out on 6500 khz ( perhaps an anecdotal recollection by Balfour?) but if it was, then that probably explains why it didn't work.  Earhart did ask Itasca to send a "long count" on 7500 (not having understood from previous exchanges that Itasca had no voice capability on that frequency) and tried unsuccessfully to "get a minimum".  She also repeatedly asked Itasca to take bearings on her own transmissions on 3105.

So yes, as you originally suggested, Earhart seems to have relied on HFDF for finding Howland.  The question is, why?  My conjecture is, ignorance.  She just plain didn't understand what her direction finder could and could not do.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:09:14
From:         David Hertog
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Very surprised that so few forum users are members. Join up 55$ is worth it and small amount to help support a worthwhile and fun search for answers.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:14:12
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: AE plane DF loop

Hue Miller asks,

> do you think it's possible to scale up carefully
> from a photo of the plane to see if this matches the loop size?

Piece of cake.  The loop is 12 inches in diameter.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:23:07
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Dennis McGee says

> The Gipper would be proud!

You really know how to hurt a guy.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:29:12
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: Forum Changes

>  From Angus Murray
>
> ... Restricting the forum will save little in terms of moderating
> time and cut off potential sources of information, ideas, publicity
> and revenue. A classic false economy.

We'll find out.  The change is an experiment, of sorts.

"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

LTM.
Marty #2359
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:29:46
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Ric said:  "What IS weird is that an organization with TIGHAR's accomplishments, reputation and international stature should have only 600 members world-wide.  There's no reason that number should not have another 0 on the end of it and, as executive director, I take the blame for that failure.  The changes in the forum are one step toward correcting the situation."

I don't know, big guy, but maybe you should be careful of what you wish for.
 :-)An increase of 5400 dues paying members at $60 per member means TIGHAR gets an additional revenue stream of $324,000 per year.  If ou think your critics are loud now, they'll be positively shrill if TIGHAR accomplishes that goal.  But I'm sure that is a headache you and Pat would LOVE to have.

LTM, who believes
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:45:43
From:         Dave Carter
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Jack Thomas wrote:

"You need to get real, Alan.  I'm on more than 10 other listservs, all of which are absolutely free.  In fact, I administer several academic listservs as part of my job; all of which are used to promote the FREE exchange of ideas.  Your comparison to TV, newspapers and internet access of a discussion listserv is ridiculous."

Jack, I guess it depends on your definition of "free." The listservs to which you subscribe are definitely funded by someone or some entity (college, university, other public organization); specifically, you mention the "academic listservs" that you administer. Since you are unable to mention a specific private benefactor in your reply, you are simply feeding at a public trough, not what I would call "free." But as long as someone else is ponying up for it, who cares, right?

"If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free." - P.J. O'Rourke

LTM,
Dave (#2585)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:46:12
From:         Skeet Gifford
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Lurker Jack Thomas equates TIGHAR membership with unequivocal support of the (ever-evolving) TIGHAR hypothesis. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jack, you should use the money you save not joining TIGHAR by enrolling in Economics 101.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:14:26
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: FORUM CHANGES

I wonder if the posts after 1 Feb to the  TIGHAR FORUM members only will be copyrighted or protected. Otherwise, some members could merely forward posts to non members for their information. Maybe it impossible to prevent. Will we need a secret handshake?

LTM,
Ron Bright
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:14:58
From:         Karen Hoy
Subject:      Re: forum changes

How many other Forums/research groups allow you to participate in late-breaking history?

One, the Amelia Earhart Search Forum! So pay your money and contribute to the solution of the world's greatest airplane mystery. What could be better?

LTM (who always told me to pay my own way)

Karen Hoy #2610
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:15:20
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: HF DF additional facts

Regarding the two way failure to communicate with the Electra by ITASCA, Capt  Laurence Safford suggests rather than simple receiver failure it was human error. He writes that Balfour "eventually admitted" to resetting AEs receiver to 6540kc from her 6210 so she could hear his transmission on a test. He blames the  fact  that the receiver wasn't retuned. Prafford refers to the Chater report. [ L.F.Safford, "Flight into Yesterday...the Amelia Earhart Enigma, ed by Cam Warren and Robert Payne. p 4 of  epilogue]  This is one of the few references I  have found regarding Balfours alleged retuning. Perhaps you have more information. Balfour may have discussed this many years later when he also claimed he had two way communication out bound from Lae.

LTM,
R. Bright
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:51:14
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Ron Bright says:

> I wonder if the posts after 1 Feb to the  TIGHAR FORUM members only will be
> copyrighted or protected. Otherwise, some members could merely forward posts 
> to non members for their information.

If somebody wants to set up a black market for forum postings they can do so with my blessing.  Anyone will still be able to read all forum postings for free via the archives on the TIGHAR website so it would be a pretty pointless exercise.

What you can't get without paying for the privilege is a front row seat to the lively exchange of ideas and opinions in near-real time which, after all, is the essence of the forum experience.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:51:33
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

For Ron Bright

>Otherwise, some members could merely forward
>posts to non  members for their information.

So?  Do we care?

LTM (who doesn't want her children overworked, but is happy to share data)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:08:15
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: HF DF additional facts

Ron Bright says,

>Capt  Laurence Safford suggests rather than simple receiver failure
>it was human error.

It clearly wasn't receiver failure.  Earhart heard the Itasca on 7500.

> He writes that Balfour "eventually admitted" to resetting AEs
> receiver to 6540kc from her 6210 so she could hear his transmission on
> a test.

So he's relying on an anecdotal recollection that was amended from an earlier anecdotal recollection.

>  He blames the fact  that the receiver wasn't retuned.

This doesn't make any sense.  Earhart's Western Electric 20B could be tuned to a wide range of frequencies via the remote in the the cockpit. You just selected the appropriate band and cranked the little crank until the needle was on the desired frequency, then you fiddled around with the crank until the station came in.  Resetting the receiver to 6540 simply meant cranking the crank.  Changing it back to 6210 meant cranking it back where it was.  To listen on 3105 or 7500 involved the same process.  Earhart clearly knew how to do that.

>  Prafford refers to the Chater
> report. [ L.F.Safford, "Flight into Yesterday...the Amelia Earhart
> Enigma, ed by Cam Warren and Robert Payne. p 4 of  epilogue]

There is nothing in the Chater report that supports his opinion.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:47:12
From:         Jim Preston
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

I have never seen such a bunch of winers. Jack states he runs some listservs for academia, well as everyone knows the taxpayers fund those. We don't need to read from the complainers Pat & Ric, just delete them and move on.
Jimbo
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:02:29
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: forum changes

I don't mind the web site change. I enjoyed every dime of the $ 55 I spent. Ric can charge my credit card for another year when my membership expires in April. I consider the $ 55 an investment in TIGHAR research. After all, at the current euro exchange rate it's a bargain. Where I live $ 55 will buy me something like 9.5 gallons of gas. That won't last a whole year...

LTM
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:03:49
From:         Malcolm Andrews
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Jackie Tharp (#2440) is way off the mark when saying 'GOOD GRIEF anyone can afford 55 bucks'. That's around 80 bucks Australian, a fair whack in our currency (and even more when the credit card Shylocks add their extra by choosing the worst currency exchange rate).

But I do manage to find it. Sadly, I can't find the extra for the wonderful prints etc that are on offer every now and again.

Having said that, a 30-day free look should be enough for interested people to try to scrounge around for the money to continue.

Malcolm Andrews
#2409
(I just hope, hopeless accountant that I am, I am up to date in my subscription which I have had since 2001)

***************************

You're paid up through March 2005, Malcolm

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:04:19
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Jim Preston wrote: "I have never seen such a bunch of winers."

Yes, I'm a winer - prefer red, myself, altho a nice chardonnay is good at times. Occasionally, I like a nice desert wine, also. Hey, there is a good fund raiser - find a small winery that will do a special label edition - AE, Electra, Niku on the label. Call it the Earhart Forum Label or some such. Best served with crab!

LTM,
Dave Bush
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:01:54
From:         Jim Preston
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

I'll drink to that. There are some wineries in Northewrn Cal that do that quite well. Alas the moderators don't live on the Left Coast so they have to pay quite hansomely for Cal Wine. I also am a Box Guy as all Cal Wine is good as opposed to that stuff from NY.
Jim
Just got my new card Monday.
***********************************
Right now we're pretty stuck down into Nouveau Beaujolais, which is excellent this year.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:56:06
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Good posting, Marty. It defies logic and understanding where folks like Jack and Angus get the idea that by charging they are being stifled and cannot say what they want. How do the two thoughts have anything to do with each other or the price of tea in China? How is information being withheld if they can read  everything on the web site? They have a mistaken idea of what a free exchange of  ideas means. It means they are free to say what they want and offer any idea or  comment they want. It doesn't mean they get a free lunch in exchange. They know  that as well as anyone does. If any one of the free loaders have something of  value they desperately want to tell TIGHAR the address is on the web site.  Methinks they just want to see their own names and little comments up in lights  and for free at that.

Fortunately there appears to be only a few illogical whiners. Some will drop out for lack of a significant interest and that's fine. They know they can still read everything on the Web.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:00:28
From:         Art Carty
Subject:      Survival basics

Watching the to and fro over the metal at the 7 site got me thinking about the site as an extended camp site and what one could reasonably expect to see and what, if anything, has not been found yet ("the dog that didn't bark").  I also think that others could help flesh this out and correct what I am sure are several dumb statements and errors. This exercise may or may not be helpful in planning for the next Niku trip.
Art

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Survival requirements:  only two really, food and water

Quality of life: several and I'm sure we can have a free-for-all debating them.  My top two picks are fire and shelter.

Tool kit of available items: the Electra (at least for a short while), the Norwich City stash, anything left behind at the Arundel site, anything that washed ashore, anything left behind by any transient visitors.

So........

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Food: enough available to keep someone alive but not necessarily healthy.  Fish, clams, other creepy crawly things in the water, turtles and (seasonally) turtle eggs, birds (if you can figure out how to catch them, (seasonally) bird eggs, and other assorted creepy crawly things on land.  No fruits or veggies that I have seen discussed besides coconuts (which are seasonal) so nutrition would be a problem (pretty ironic to survive the landing and die of scurvy).

Food preparation: fire would be really really nice but not absolutely required.  More on fire later.

What One Would Expect to Find (Food):  After 67 years, bones and shells at the most

What Has Been Found So Far:  son of a gun, bones and shells

What Hasn't Been Found That Should Be There:  to put a delicate face on it; what goes in has got to come out so, where's the latrine?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Water:  I have a really really dumb question: does anyone know the salinity of the lagoon south of Baureke Passage, especially down by the 7 site?  Would it vary significantly in the years when Baureke is (more or less) dry versus when the lagoon is being flushed as it has been the past few years?  Any way at all it would be drinkable?

Other sources of water: rain and distillation; very short term, anything left from the Norwich City stash

What One Would Expect to Find (Water):  At least one container. If water was distilled somehow, at least two containers: one of them to be used to boil the water so it would have to be (more or less) fireproof, and another to catch the distillate and store water; also, some sort of tubing and a container stopper.  If water containers were retrieved from the Norwich City stash, those containers.

If rain water was captured, a way to gather fairly significant amounts of water would require a large collection surface area and something to store it in because it isn't going to rain everyday; it should probably also have to work unattended in case one is off chasing turtles.

Unless there is a large container, or unless the lagoon water was drinkable, the pursuit of water must have been the critical component of survival and the acquisition of water had to have been done in such a way as to consume significantly less water than it generated (doesn't work for long if you sweat 2 gallons to get a gallon).

What Has Been Found (so far):  son of a gun (again), a Benedictine bottle;  spread out rust heaps that may or may not be a ground collection device.

What Hasn't Been Found That Should Be There:  No tubing; no stoppers. Some larger storage device, maybe originally from the Arundel Site or from the Norwich City stash.  The Benedictine bottle just isn't big enough if the source of water was only rainfall, especially with the drought conditions on Niku in the late 1930s.  Not finding a larger storage device argues strongly for a readily accessible and reliable source of water or else a short survival duration

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fire: two requirements, fuel and an ignition source (or a continuous fire 24 hours a day 7 days a week through all weather conditions). Fuel was available; a hatchet would be nice and there was a hatchet on one of the inventories (I forget which one).  The ignition source could have been lighters/matches (for a period of time) and then something more basic (it can be done but you have to have some idea how to start).

What One Would Expect To Find: Firepits, a hatchet (if it was ever there and didn't wind up in the village); something to carry/drag firewood

What Has Been Found So Far (Fire):  son of a gun (again again), there are fire pits/sites.  The fact that there are multiple sites argues against the "perpetual fire" since it argues that fires were allowed to die out.  By the way, why would one not reuse the same site and improve it over time versus using different sites in close proximity?  What would cause this behavior?

What Hasn't Been Found That Should Be There:  a hatchet, if one was ever there; a lighter if one was ever there; the remnants of whatever was used to carry/drag firewood to the site

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shelter: Someway to get out of the rain at a minimum

What One Would Expect To Find:  This is a tough one; any fabric from the Arundel Site or the Norwich City stash or from anywhere else would be long gone.  If a shelter wasn't made out a fabric, what else could it be made out of?  Wood (but you'd need a way to work the wood); the metal panels as a lean to; something else that's there but nobody looked at and went "Shelter!!!"

What Has Been Found So Far (Shelter):  piles of rusted metal

What Had Been Found That Should Be There:  After 67 years, nothing that I can think of.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess what I am trying to get at is not what she/they could have, should have, or would have done but what bare survival requires that they did and then try to figure out what tangible artifacts would result. These artifacts could then help target the search next trip to Niku.

I got lost in all the posturing about the iron panels but I have a basic question: could Amelia Earhart BY HERSELF have moved one of them from the Arundel Site to the 7 Site?  If the answer is 'Yes', we don't move the ball forward at all but if the answer is 'No', then where is Fred? Is he buried at the 7 Site?

I have a headache.

LTM
Art Carty
************************************************************************
From Ric

I really like this approach.

I'll try to answer some of the questions.

>where's the latrine?

The ocean or the lagoon.  Flushes every 12 hours.

>does anyone know the salinity of the lagoon south of Baureke Passage,
>especially down by the 7 site? 

Yup.  Just as salty or saltier than the ocean.

>Not finding a larger storage device argues strongly for a readily
>accessible and reliable source of water or else a short survival
>duration.

We do have the rusted and collapsed remains of some kind of metal container.  Tom?  How big did you estimate it to be?  There are also the rusted and collapsed remains of a metal drum.  Not as big as a 55 gallon drum but pretty good sized (I'll have to dig into my notes). We've always figured that it dated from the colonial period but that's purely an assumption.  It could have been part of the Norwich City stash.  Come to think of it, if Gallagher's gang had the square tank why would they also need a metal drum?  The drum is also in much worse shape than the tank, possibly implying that it has been there longer.

>By the way, why would one not reuse the same site and improve it over
>time versus using different sites in close proximity?  What would cause
>this behavior?

That's easy.  Birgus latro - the coconut crab.  You don't want to do anything to encourage the swarms of juveniles, let alone the adult monsters, to come into your campsite.  We've seen those little suckers go INTO a fire to steal food.  You build a small fire for every meal, or almost every meal, and then you cover it up afterward.  Dining at the Seven Site is like the Mad Hatter's tea party. "Clean cup! Move down!"

>What Hasn't Been Found That Should Be There:  a hatchet, if one was
>ever there; a lighter if one was ever there; the remnants of whatever
>was used to carry/drag firewood to the site

There could easily be a hatchet there.  There is still much of the site that has never been examined.  The presence of an "inverting eyepiece" from the sextant (but no sextant) that was found but (supposedly) inadvertently thrown away by one of the laborers suggests that it was being used to start fires (why else save just that one part of the sextant?).  There's an abundance of dead wood around.  No need for any special device for gathering and transporting it.

>where is Fred? Is he buried at the 7 Site?

Regardless of questions about moving metal sheets, that's a very real possibility.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:06:45
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Malcolm, my daughter lives in Sydney and I visit occasionally and she returns home periodically so we are well aware of the exchange rate. The $55US  buys close to the same thing $88AU buys. Your economy is slightly different I know but the values are nearly the same.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:15:00
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Forum changes, and an offer

Malcolm Andrews says:

> Sadly, I can't find the extra for the wonderful prints etc that are on
> offer every now and again.

Hand me that straw hat and cane.

Friend and neighbors, let me tell ya what I'm gonna do.

Every TIGHAR membership renewal or new membership from now until February 1, 2005 gets a Final Approach print absolutely free.

You say your TIGHAR membership doesn't expire until later in the year? No problem.  There's nothing sacred about renewal dates. Send in your money and we'll extend your membership ahead a year from when we receive it.

You say you paid for a signed and numbered Final Approach print and don't think much of us now giving them away?  Never fear.  The give-away prints will not be signed or numbered (but they're still awful pretty).

Happy Holidays.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:33:05
From:         Angus Murray
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

> From Alan Caldwell
>
> Good posting, Marty. It defies logic and understanding where folks like Jack
> and Angus get the idea that by charging they are being stifled and cannot
> say what they want.

Whoever said that? Certainly not me. As usual you jump to conclusions - and as usual, the wrong ones.

> How do the two thoughts have anything to do with each other
> or the price of tea in China? How is information being withheld if they
> can read  everything on the web site?

Its being withheld until it reaches the archive - and that takes time. Can you not understand that? I was berated by you for just the same thing - temporarily witholding information. The trouble with you is that you have double standards.

> They have a mistaken idea of what a free
> exchange of  ideas means. It means they are free to say what they want
> and offer any idea or  comment they want. It doesn't mean they get a free 
> lunch in exchange.

I never ever said that I was looking for a free lunch. I merely pointed out that it was probably not in Tighar's interest in the long term. I made no comment about my own intentions. You jump to conclusions yet again. How you can function as an attorney is difficult to understand.

> They know  that as well as anyone does. If any one of the free loaders
> have something of  value they desperately want to tell TIGHAR the address is 
> on the web site.  Methinks they just want to see their own names and
> little comments up in lights  and for free at that.

If anyone wants to see their name in lights its Alan. He always has to make himself heard on every topic whether he knows about it or not. And usually he doesn't.

> Fortunately there appears to be only a few illogical whiners. Some will drop
> out for lack of a significant interest and that's fine. They know they can
> still read everything on the Web.

Its you who's doing the whining Alan.

Angus.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:17:36
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: survival basics

Wasn't a lighter found?  No proof whose.
Dan Postellon #2263

> From Art Carty
> What Hasn't Been Found That Should Be There:  a hatchet, if one was
> ever there; a lighter if one was ever there; the remnants of whatever
> was used to carry/drag firewood to the site
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:18:16
From:         Art Carty
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Ya know, I'm really getting pretty tired of this piss ass bs; Oz has spoken so let's move on, shall we?

Art Carty

***************************************

I agree. Angus, Alan -- simmer down.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:19:31
From:         Malcolm Andrews
Subject:      Re: Forum changes, and an offer

God works in mysterious ways.

First Ric's offer.

Then half-an-hour later a letter arrived for this struggling freelance journalist with a client's cheque (US: check) that should have been paid in March 2003.

Renew my membership, Ric, using my credit card details that are on record.

And Alan Caldwell...look me up next time you are Down Under.

LTM

Malcolm Andrews
********************************

Thanks, Malcolm! we just need a new expiry date, we have 11/04.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:29:28
From:         Alfred Hendrickson
Subject:      The prop spins for me

(A little off-topic, but, hey, it's almost Christmas.)

I've been reading Forum Archives (again), trying to get some more background. I ran across a few mentions of the spinning propeller photo that appears on the TIGHAR site. That thing is even cooler than the Wreck Photo! Ric, Pat, please give me the history of that bad boy. Where is that photo from? Who came up with the spinning prop idea? Who was it that did the photographic voodoo that makes that thing work? How do they do that, anyway?

LTM,

Alfred Hendrickson #2583

*****************************************
I'm not sure what the photo background is... just another pic of the Electra. The spinning prop idea was Ric's, and the magic was created by MorningstarInteractive, who host our website. I believe it's a javascript that uses a series of images... but I'm way out of my paygrade here.

It is cool, ain't it?

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:30:10
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Angus, settle down. Thanks.

This entire matter can be quickly settled. Join TIGHAR. It will cost you $1.06 (US) per week. Thanks, again.

Regards,
Roger
   TIGHAR # 2112CE=
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:34:14
From:         Alexander Gartshore
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

have you considered the impact of this upon the unemployed non members that have been here since forever ? my situation at this time means I cannot aford the cost and also what about people who dont have credit cards ?

im not knocking your new plan but people like me will lose access to an interesting site. but if thats the only way you can keep it going then thanks for use up until now and i'll see ya around...lol

L.T.M : anyone got some spare change ?

Alexander [ex-non member]
********************************************

Our website will still be there, and will still be free. The Forum archives will still be on the website, and will still be free. The really current archives will still be on the Listserv, and will still be free and accessible to all.

For those who don't have credit cards, a check will do nicely.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:35:48
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: Forum changes and an offer

As I said in my previous posting yesterday, my membership expires on April 30. Please renew it and charge my Visa card.

Herman

**********************************

The card # we have expired 06/03, got a new expiry date?

Thanks.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:36:11
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Survival basics

Regarding multiple fire sites. Were they set up separately at different times? Or were they in a circle to ward off night critters or to help aid in directing rescue? No reason that I can see that they wouldn't have more than one fire going at a time.

LTM,
Dave Bush
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:39:02
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Survival basics

For Art Carty -- Let me add a bit to Ric's responses.  Actually,  I've seen that Ric's responded, but not looked at what he said.  Let me  answer independently and see how we compare...

> What Hasn't Been Found That Should Be There:  to put a  delicate face
> on it; what goes in has got to come out so, where's the  latrine?

It would be interesting to find a latrine with preserved wastes, since they'd be amenable to DNA analysis, but the chances of their survival -- and  hence the survival of a latrine identifiable as such -- in the coral-rubble soil and active microbial environment of Niku is about as close to nil as anything I know of.

> Water:  I have a really really dumb question:  does anyone know the
> salinity of the lagoon south of Baureke Passage,  especially down by
> the 7 site?  Would it vary significantly in  the years when Baureke is
> (more or less) dry versus when the lagoon is  being flushed as it has been
> the past few years?  Any way at all  it would be drinkable?

We haven't measured it, but I doubt it.

> Other  sources of water: rain and distillation; very short term,
> anything  left from the Norwich City stash

True

> What One Would Expect to Find (Water):   At least one container. ...
>
> What Has Been Found (so far):  son of a  gun (again), a Benedictine
> bottle;  spread out rust heaps that  may or may not be a ground
> collection device.

Also the rusted remains of a square ferrous metal thing that could be bottom of something about the size of a biscuit tin, and lots of other ferrous flakes that could represent totally rusted-away  containers.  And a smallish steel barrel.  Also the turtle  shell.-- which, incidentally, could have been used simply to collect  rainwater.

> What Hasn't Been Found That  Should Be There:  No tubing; no stoppers.
> Some larger storage  device, maybe originally from the Arundel Site or
> from the Norwich  City stash.  The Benedictine bottle just isn't big
> enough if the  source of water was only rainfall, especially with the
> drought  conditions on Niku in the late 1930s.  Not finding a larger
> storage device argues strongly for a readily accessible and reliable
> source of water or else a short survival duration

I think that's a fair appraisal, though (a) there were  the corks on chains, and (b) there's a lot of the site we haven't  searched.

> Fire: two requirements, fuel and an ignition source (or a  continuous
> fire 24 hours a day 7 days a week through all weather  conditions).
> Fuel was available; a hatchet would be nice and  there was a hatchet on
> one of the inventories (I forget which  one).  The ignition source could
> have been lighters/matches (for  a period of time) and then something
> more basic (it can be done but  you have to have some idea how to
> start).
>
> What One Would Expect  To Find: Firepits, a hatchet (if it was ever
> there and didn't wind up  in the village); something to carry/drag
> firewood

One nice thing about buka is that it breaks up pretty easily.  A hatchet would certainly be nice to have, but probably not  mandatory.

> What Has Been Found So Far (Fire):  son of a  gun (again again), there
> are fire pits/sites.  The fact that  there are multiple sites argues
> against the "perpetual fire" since it  argues that fires were allowed to
> die out.  By the way, why would  one not reuse the same site and improve
> it over time versus using  different sites in close proximity?  What
> would cause this  behavior?

That's a real head-scratcher, that I puzzle about a good deal.  I wonder if maybe the "perpetual fire" argument runs in the opposite  direction. Maybe if there are two of you, but one is disabled, the smart  thing to do each day is start a new fire that the disabled one can feed by  crawling around in the vicinity collecting twigs and stuff, while the  able-bodied one goes out and gets food, then comes back, builds up the fire, and  cooks.  Or maybe it has something to do with distracting or avoiding the  crabs.  Or something. I really don't have any hot (sic)  ideas.

> What Hasn't Been Found That Should Be There:  a  hatchet, if one was
> ever there; a lighter if one was ever there; the  remnants of whatever
> was used to carry/drag firewood to the  site

Yeah, but hands are probably sufficient to do the  dragging/carrying.

> Shelter: Someway to get out of the rain  at a minimum
>
> What One Would Expect To Find:  This is a tough one;  any fabric from
> the Arundel Site or the Norwich City stash or from  anywhere else would
> be long gone.  If a shelter wasn't made out a  fabric, what else could
> it be made out of?  Wood (but you'd need  a way to work the wood); the
> metal panels as a lean to; something else  that's there but nobody
> looked at and went "Shelter!!!"
>
> What  Has Been Found So Far (Shelter):  piles of rusted metal

Also the roll of asphalt siding, which underlay the metal but overlay a deposit of shells.

> What Had Been Found That Should Be  There:  After 67 years, nothing
> that I can think  of.

Yeah, particularly with all the other stuff that's gone on at the site to confuse the picture.

> I got lost in all the posturing  about the iron panels but I have a
> basic question: could Amelia  Earhart BY HERSELF have moved one of them
> from the Arundel Site to the  7 Site?  If the answer is 'Yes', we don't
> move the ball forward  at all but if the answer is 'No', then where is
> Fred? Is he buried at  the 7 Site?

I suppose she could, given enough time and motivation.  That  doesn't mean she did.  As for whether Fred's buried at the site, as Ric  says, he could be. That, among many other things, remains to be  seen.

On to Ric's comments:

>> where's the  latrine?
>
> The ocean or the lagoon.  Flushes every 12  hours.

That's another possibility, widely used in the Pacific.

>> does anyone know the salinity of the lagoon south of  Baureke Passage,
>> especially down by the 7 site?
>
> Yup.  Just as salty or saltier than the ocean.

Probably true, though again, we've not measured  it.

>> Not finding a larger storage device argues strongly for  a readily
>> accessible and reliable source of water or else a short  survival
>> duration.
>
> We do have the rusted and collapsed  remains of some kind of metal
> container.  Tom?  How big did  you estimate it to be?  I'd have to go
> back to the notes, but about  biscuit-tin size.  There are also
> the rusted and collapsed  remains of a metal drum.  Not as big as a 55
> gallon drum but  pretty good sized (I'll have to dig into my notes).
> We've always  figured that it dated from the colonial period but that's
> purely an  assumption.  It could have been part of the Norwich City
> stash.  Come to think of it, if Gallagher's gang had the square  tank
> why would they also need a metal drum?  The drum is also in  much worse
> shape than the tank, possibly implying that it has been  there longer.

Maybe, but it's also much thinner metal.

>> By the  way, why would one not reuse the same site and improve it over
>> time  versus using different sites in close proximity?  What would
>> cause this behavior?
>
> That's easy.  Birgus latro - the coconut  crab.  You don't want to do
> anything to encourage the swarms of  juveniles, let alone the adult
> monsters, to come into your  campsite.  We've seen those little suckers
> go INTO a fire to  steal food.  You build a small fire for every meal,
> or almost  every meal, and then you cover it up afterward.  Dining at
> the  Seven Site is like the Mad Hatter's tea party. "Clean cup! Move
> down!"

That's a very good possibility, and Ric's description is right on, but I'm not as sure as he is that it's THE correct  explanation.

>> What Hasn't Been Found That Should Be  There:  a hatchet, if one was
>> ever there; a lighter if one was  ever there; the remnants of whatever
>> was used to carry/drag firewood  to the site
>
> There could easily be a hatchet there.  There is  still much of the site
> that has never been examined.  The  presence of an "inverting eyepiece"
> from the sextant (but no sextant)  that was found but (supposedly)
> inadvertently thrown away by one of  the laborers suggests that it was
> being used to start fires (why else  save just that one part of the
> sextant?).  There's an abundance  of dead wood around.  No need for any
> special device for  gathering and transporting it.

Agreed

>> where is Fred? Is he buried at the 7  Site?
>
> Regardless of questions about moving metal sheets, that's a  very real
> possibility.

Yup.

LTM,

Tom
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:39:30
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Sextant box

I'm about half way through "Amelia Earhart's Shoes" by Tom King et. al. and just finished the section regarding the much-traveled and oft-debated sextant box.   When Gallagher sent to his bosses the artifacts he'd found he had already identified the box as a sextant box. And somewhere along the line this identification was confirmed by others and Harold Gatty, who also noted that all of the internal structures to support the sextant in the box had been removed.

Do we know the basis for Gallagher's original identification?

LTM, who hews to the straight and narrow

Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:39:46
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Survival basics

For Dave Bush -- The fire features don't seem to form any kind of circle, and aren't close enough together to form a ring, but some further patterning may turn up when and if we get back to clear and look at more of the site.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:40:45
From:         Jack Thomas
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

> From Dave (Carter) in Fremont:
>
> Jack, I guess it depends on your definition of "free." The listservs to
> which you subscribe are definitely funded by someone or some entity
> (college, university, other public organization); specifically, you
> mention the "academic listservs" that you administer. Since you are
> unable to mention a specific private benefactor in your reply, you are
> simply feeding at a public trough, not what I would call "free." But as
> long as someone else is ponying up for it, who cares, right?

"Feeding at a public trough"?!  "Benefactors"?!  Get a grip -- we're talking about email discussion lists here.  Because TIGHAR has opted for the fee-based forum, there seems to be some misconception that listservs must be exorbitantly expensive to maintain -- they aren't.  Think about it rationally: if these were expensive endeavors, do you think there would be literally tens of thousands of them with free subscriptions on the internet?  Comparing such lists (which subscribers typically DON'T pay for) to things we all do typically pay for (cable bills, phone service, coffee) is just a demonstration of your own ignorance.

Do a Google search and you'll find plenty of free listservs (or majordomos) on every topic imaginable (the Civil War, computer security, chess, meteorology, etc.)  It's often amazing what such a consolidation of minds can discover or produce in this environment.  But, members of this forum would have us believe that the subscribers of such lists are freeloaders for not paying for the opportunity to contribute what they have to offer intellectually.  It's utterly preposterous.  And the idea that they should have to do so is something I find "repugnant" (sound familiar?).

-Jack Thomas
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:41:03
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: The prop spins for me

Pat says

>  The spinning prop idea was Ric's,

I really wanted to add sound (ching, ching, cough, ROAR) but it would have slowed the loading time too much.

Wait until you see the interactive "gear down" lever and indicator lights we'll be adding in the near future.  Way cool.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:43:52
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Back to my cage

Having done some much-needed fundraising, overhauled the forum, and generally stirred up a lot of trouble, I am once again locking myself away to research and write, hoping to finish the draft of the Post-Loss Radio Study by the end of January.  I'm unsubscribing myself from the forum effective today so if you haven't yet excoriated me for something I've said or done you'll have to wait until I sign back on February 1st.  Pat will continue to moderate the forum and process the flood of renewals and new memberships.

Meanwhile, have a great holiday everyone.  To those who will choose to leave - be well, and may you find what you seek.  To those who will stay, which I sincerely hope will be most of you, thank you - the best is yet to come.

See ya next year.
LTM,
Ric
(CLANG)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:21:21
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Jack Thomas said:  "Because TIGHAR has opted for the fee-based forum, there seems to be some misconception that listservs must be exorbitantly expensive to maintain -- they aren't."

Maybe renting the hardware and software aren't expensive, but the TIME Ric and Pat put into crowd control here isn't free.  You said you maintain 10 (?) listservs.  Does that mean you clean  the plugs and change the oil and filter on occasion or do you actually moderate the groups by answering questions, trying to keep the herd heading in one direction, researching minute bits of trivia etc., etc.,  THAT is what costs the bucks - time, time, time.  Ask anybody in the business world and they will tell you the most expensive part of any business is paying for the people to run it.  Raw materials, shipping, storage etc. are small compared to payroll.   Your time, my time, Ric's time, it all gets translated to dollars and cents that has to come out of someone's pocket.

LTM, who's not on the Fortune 500
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:21:59
From:         Christina Creyts
Subject:      Re: Survival basics

I think I took a wrong turn...are you saying the metal sheets were used to cover a demised Fred?

Christy Creyts
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:32:44
From:         Art Carty
Subject:      Re: Survival basics

Nope, just that if Earhart could not have moved the iron sheets there by herself, and if their presence at the 7 site dates from Earhart's time, then by definition someone must have helped her.  The only candidate we know of is Fred, which raises the interesting question of where his body is.

> From Christina Creyts
>
> I think I took a wrong turn...are you saying the metal sheets were used
> to cover a demised Fred?
> Christy Creyts
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:41:36
From:         Larry Turner
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

round of Golf = $70.00 to $100.00

Round of golf (cheap) = $35.00

Stop at bar on way home = $56.40

One year of Forum = PRICELESS

Larry Turner
Former Lurker, whos posted 2 or 3 times in as many years, now turned MEMBER.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:18:59
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Kamui and/or Kamoi

Ric, I mentioned I had contacted a naval historian in re Kamoi and Kamui. I could not tell you this guy's credentials but I don't think that is significant to anyone but the Marshall folks and they can chase it down if they want.

Here is the reply I received.

Hello Alan,

In Japanese Kanji, there is a similarity, but most western translators more often than not, get it wrong. KAMUI was used in the Amelia Earhart controversy, yet it was Kamoi, not Kamui. However, Kamoi was never in the Mandates at that time, she was on station off Shanghai. Where these people get the idea of what ships were where is beyond me. At the time of her disappearance, all major fleet units were in the East China Sea or around Formosa. As to what ship was at Emidj (Jaluit), no one knows for sure, but it was not any naval ship. I can identify every Japanese naval ship on the roster (1937), and none were there.

It's been a long time since I've seen the word 'KAMUI' used, and I thought the issue was dead, certainly no Japanese researcher uses that name. I hope this clarifies the issue.

Most sincerely, Allan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:19:55
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes, and an offer

Malcolm, I WILL look you up next time I'm in Australia. If you want to email me and haven't noticed my email address you can get it from Pat.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:20:17
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Art is right and so is Pat. I always get a bit tight jawed over Angus. I apologize to Angus also.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:23:29
From:         Carl Peltzer
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

By the way all of us so called lurkers take valuable time to read these carefully in the  attempt to solve the puzzle which comes from personal experience learned over many years in this flying game and have been up to now been only too glad to share.

I have, just as you all, to make descisions based on my income: choices like whether to eat this week and the quality of it:  whether it's more important to spend $55 for my Civil Air Patrol Membership or divert that to the forum and give up that which also gives some enjoyment for the humanity in us all.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:58:04
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

After reading the forum for the last few days it seems to me, Pat, if you would cut off my bitching at Angus, Angus' whining back and all the whining about the Forum changes we could get something productive accomplished. Everyone knows the new rules and the whining about them is not going to change anything.

Alan, #2329
*********************************

Today is the last day for complaining about the changes. At close of business today, the thread dies forever.

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:58:30
From:         Dave Carter
Subject:      Re: survival basics

Dave Bush wrote:

"Regarding multiple fire sites. Were they set up separately at different times? Or were they in a circle to ward off night critters or to help aid in directing rescue? No reason that I can see that they wouldn't have more than one fire going at a time."

Which raises the following question... Were any differences noted in the sizes of the fire sites that would indicate any were used as signal fires, as opposed to cooking fires?

LTM,
Dave (#2585)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:50:06
From:         Dave Carter
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

Jack Thomas wrote:

> Feeding at a public trough"?!  "Benefactors"?!  Get a grip -- we're
> talking about email discussion lists here.  Because TIGHAR has opted
> for the fee-based forum, there seems to be some misconception that
> listservs must be exorbitantly expensive to maintain -- they aren't.
> Think about it
> rationally: if these were expensive endeavors, do you think there
> would be literally tens of thousands of them with free subscriptions
> on the internet?  Comparing such lists (which subscribers typically
> DON'T pay for) to things we all do typically pay for (cable bills,
> phone service, coffee) is just a demonstration of your own ignorance."

Jack, I don't think I'm ignorant of anything here. If you look at most of these "free" listserv discussion groups, you'll notice a majority have the TLD ".edu" which, for some Forumites, means that a college or university is paying the freight for your "free exchange of ideas." The fact of the matter is that Ric is simply stating that TIGHAR doesn't have the bandwidth to keep providing a cost-free forum.

I pay my membership annually and will continue to do so. I would suggest that you become either a forum subscriber or, better yet, a TIGHAR member; it's just a matter of how interested you find yourself in the organization and their projects. If it's worth $55/year to you for membership, terrific. If not, you can always catch up by reading the archives. My only wish is that you would reconsider and see the value of supporting TIGHAR.

As for the Earhart Project, at least with TIGHAR you don't have to submit a resume' or CV and pass a screening to join, ala the AES.

LTM,
Dave (#2585)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:05:38
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

For Carl - I, too, spend what spare change I have on my CAP membership. It is an important humanitarian cause, as well as a great social experience. I would urge you to spend your money on CAP, as the forum, while fun and interesting, isn't contributing anything to society (except for keeping Ric & Pat feed, clothed, etc. - which I have no problem with). But you have to weight the different points and decide for yourself.

LTM,
Dave Bush
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:22:41
From:         Marjorie Smith
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

For three years I've labored under the illusion that my background (7 years residence in Saipan and Guam during the 1960s, extensive work and travel throughout Micronesia, fluency in Japanese, 8 years as a U.S. diplomat) gave me potential to make an occasional useful contribution to the forum. Perhaps you're doing me a favor, saving me the time I've spend reading all the postings and I'll get some writing done that increases my income. Contrary to what some members say, $55 a year is an issue for some of us. I give uncounted hours of my time and skills and three percent of my $27,000 annual income to local arts, cultural and help-to-the-needy causes but the biggest individual contribution I can afford is $50 and that's for things that help others, not indulge my own obsession with this mystery. I'll miss you guys when the trial membership runs out.

LTM
Marjorie
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:46:41
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: FORUM CHANGES

Marjorie, you are quite right that various amounts of money are significant to all of us. Few of us can have everything we want and so we make choices. Everyone should make the choice that they are most comfortable with. Those who argue that $55 is not that much are doing so just to keep people like you on board. They know the reality of our limited funds as well as you.

Whether you or any particular person has contributed to the Forum or not is not the question. Everyone, regardless of background, has the potential for contributing something of value. The decision to change the Forum has nothing to  do with dropping you or anyone else out. It is simply a management decision based on economic need. You and everyone else who are not subscribers are nevertheless valued as important to the group. There are millions of people who could not afford $55 for this or much else but that has nothing to do with this Forum.

When the decision was made it was recognized that there would be some gains and some losses. The losses are regrettable but that's real life.

I won't ask you to stay with the Forum but I will ask you to do what is in your best interest.

Whether you go or stay I wish you good luck and Happy holidays.

Alan, #2329
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:00:43
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Kamui and/or Kamoi

Alan,

Logs of the Kamoi put it at Saipan on 2 July 37 and it sailed for Tokyo the next day or two. According to news accounts, interview of the communication officer,  and the ships log, the Japanese ship Koshu was the ship that was dispatched to the Marshalls for the Earhart search. and ended up at Jaluit until 19 July 37 then headed back to Saipan. There was some confusion that both ships had been deployed to help search, but it was only the Koshu that made it.

Ron Bright
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:28:58
From:         George Werth
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

G'Day Y'All

As a 'quadruple dipper', I can afford the $55.00 for Associate Membership whether or not I was interested in the Earhart Forum. Besides, don't forget that a portion of the membership fee is a deductible item when 15 APR comes around -- at my age I have trouble beating the Standard Deduction.

Cheers

GeorgeRatWerth
TIGHAR Member # 2630

PS. Have a Beer, Mate
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:29:23
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: Survival basics

Tom King,

You made a comment concerning the asphalt siding that I would like you to expand on.  "Also the roll of asphalt siding which underlay the metal but overlay a deposit of shells."

Is this asphalt siding similar to what we call roofing paper (under the shingles) here in the US today? Was this asphalt siding spread out under the corrugated metal sheeting that we have been discussing the past week or so?

And, when you talk of a deposit of shells are you talking about a large area (surface) covered in shells or small piles of shells? Does all this material - corrugated metal, asphalt siding and shells - form a sandwich that covers a large area of the basic surface of the island? I know it doesn't cover the whole island but is the area covered significant?
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:32:24
From:         Jim Preston
Subject:      Re: SAipan

Marjorie, I would be interested in hearing what you heard while residing in Saipan. I flew in there many times as I was a Pilot of Air Mic 1977-1980. I was first there on vacation with my wife in 1970. My E-mail is macmn@sbcglobal.net.
Thanks Jimbo
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:17:48
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Survival basics

For Dave Carter

>Were any differences noted in
>the sizes of the fire sites that  would indicate any were used as signal
>fires, as opposed to cooking  fires?

Nope, and all the fires contain fish and some bird bones.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:30:02
From:         Mark Guimond
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

I hope this gets in before the scissors snip the thread.

I feel not at all abused by the new policy. I hope it results in a much better forum, although i honestly doubt it. Ric and pat are doing an exceptional job and i thank them for it.

I certainly take issue with Ms. 2440. (I suspect that each day she lights a candle to 'The man who can do no wrong', George W.). She claims "...but GOOD GRIEF anyone can afford 55 bucks". Well, maybe $55 represents to her just another bottle of crappy wine (Beaujolais Nouveau?). But as one of many victims of the post-9/11 aerospace industry collapse and getting the deep-six just 2 years short of pension, $55 now means to me the difference between eating and not eating for a week. It means getting or not getting two desperately-needed new tires for the #$%@& wheelchair stuck to my ass. It means another six weeks of internet service, after which being a member or not is going to be a very moot point.

To allege that us 'lurkers' have some sort of nefarious conspiracy going on is so absurd as to make one laugh. After all, until now being a paid-up member was not a prerequisite, was it? And yet some lurkers have contributed intelligent suggestions and questions, while some paid-ups have babbled on pointlessly, or had nothing constructive to offer, coming out only to whine or critisize and call names.

But hey, i have another few weeks, so i will continue to lurk AND post, and then it will be "Adieu", or maybe with luck, just "Au Revoir"

Mark Guimond
(lurking under the snow of the north country)
***************************************************

Believe it or not, we are not insensible to the devastation caused by various factors (naming no names) in many sectors of our economy. (That's "our" as in TIGHAR's, not "our" as in "a particular nation.")

I would suggest something that has worked in the past. There is no question that some of our Forum members are better off than others -- that's the way the world is. In other threads, for other purposes, TIGHAR members have sponsored folks who had a great deal to contribute but were cash poor for whatever reason. Can we start a "Forum Fund" for these folks?

I would definitely place Mark in this category. His insights have been valuable and timely in the past, and I would expect they will be so in the future. I'd like to see a fund, if you will, of perhaps 10 TIGHAR memberships that could be extended to those who are temporary distress. The only payback -- if you receive such a membership, when you are able, support a fund for some person in the situation you were in. Pay it forward -- or back -- or to the side -- but pay it mostly in good research and good input to the Forum.

$550 would cover the whole thing. Any takers?

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:30:54
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Survival basics

For Ted Campbell

I'm tempted to say "it's all in the book," because it's discussed in the  new edition of "AE's Shoes," but let me summarize:

>Is this asphalt siding similar to what we call roofing paper (under
>the shingles) here in the US today?

No, it's heavier than roofing paper -- heavy rolled sheet siding/roofing, asphalt with shiny green-colored granules in it.

>Was this asphalt  siding spread out under the corrugated metal
>sheeting that we have been  discussing the past week or so?

It's not that simple (naturally).  There's a roll of the stuff lying on the ridge not far from "Clambush 1" -- the collection of Tridacna shells that  we brought back for analysis.  Sheets of it seem to have been spread on the ground more or less between the roll and the clambush, but the asphalt has entirely deteriorated, leaving only the green granules in a very thin, discontiguous layer a few centimeters down in the soil.  Over part of the  area the granules are mixed with fragments of rust that clearly come from the equally deteriorated sheet metal we've been discussing, but the sheet metal is more extensive than the granule distribution.  Sheet metal (rust) fragments were found all around and on top of the roll of roofing, but not under it, which is what makes us quite sure that the roll of roofing came before the sheet metal.

>And, when you talk of a deposit of shells are you talking  about a
>large area (surface) covered in shells or small piles of  shells?

It's a deposit of small butterclams (Anadara and/or Gafrarium sp.) about a meter and a half across, that's SE of the clambush (which itself is made up of oxymoronic small giant clams of the genus Tridacna).  It underlies the green granule layer.

>Does all this material - corrugated metal,  asphalt siding and shells-
>form a sandwich that covers a large area of  the basic surface of the island?
>I know it doesn't cover the whole  island but is the area covered
>significant?

Well, "significant" is one of those words.  It's hard to judge the  full extent of any of this stuff based on the amount of study we were able to  give them.  My estimate of the shell deposit is that it's about a meter and a half across.  The green stuff representing the spread-out siding looked like it covered a considerably larger area, but we really couldn't be sure how large -- I'm guessing maybe 4-5 meters on a side, but there were pieces found in excavations 6-8 meters away.  The sheet metal we recorded on the ridge (as  opposed to down-slope near the tank) covered an area a couple of meters on a side, but that's just what we documented with some degree of precision; it appeared to extend for quite a few meters (like maybe 10) on to the north across the ridge crest, and for an unknown distance to the SE along the ridge.

LTM -- who reminds everyone to get your copies of Amelia Earhart's Shoes:
Updated Edition, while supplies last.  A great stocking  stuffer.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:32:05
From:         Chris Billings
Subject:      Alan's visit to Australia

I extend out a warm welcome to you Alan if you come to visit down under. If you do decide to visit please take the time to catch up and sit down to look at the facts that have been gathered here. It a lot easier to understand the facts while looking at them in real time rather then trying to understand them from written via e-mail.

Gooday mate from Chris Billings
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:54:56
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Alan's visit to Australia

Thanks for the invitation, Chris. You're on. Your Dad knows I have a fairly open mind although not as open as he would like. <G>

I just received an intel report regarding serious problems in New Guinea, New Britain and Bougainville. Australia may have to take a hard hand to the problems. Are you and your Dad aware of this?

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:00:56
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Kamui and/or Kamoi

Ron, we have conflicting information. Do you have a copy of the Kamoi log? My source says the Kamoi left Saipan two days BEFORE, June 30th for Shanghai. She was on station, 200m due west of Shanghai when the war broke out. He can provide support for that.

The Koshu is more of a problem in that there is a doubt she was a military ship at the time.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:11:47
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Survival basics

>> Is this asphalt siding similar to what we call roofing paper (under
>> the shingles) here in the US today?
>
> No, it's heavier than roofing paper -- heavy rolled sheet siding/roofing,
> asphalt with shiny green-colored granules in it.

The stuff was called Malthoid back in the 60's and was used variously as a dampcourse for footings (to prevent rising damp), waterproofing (especially around shower or bath rooms), flashing (same as previous, and in lieu of ridge capping at times.

There were various thicknesses of the stuff, and it came variously as rolls and sheets in all sorts of sizes.

There was also a thicker malthoid used on its own for roofing, and it was also available as a liquid for brushing or rolling on.  It was often used to repair holes in corrugated iron!  Probably wasn't meant for that, but we used it on all sorts of things.

We used it regularly still back in the 1960's but I haven't seen much of it since.  The green granules in the bitumen (asphalt) gave it away. Sorry I had not read about the stuff before or I could have mentioned it earlier.

It seems to have been almost entirely replaced by bituminous paper, but you can still buy it here, and it is still available as a brush on liquid.

Th' WOMBAT

--
We don't use Windows - so You get fewer Viruses.
Mepis Linux, Mozilla and OpenOffice.org.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:12:22
From:         Ted Campbell
Subject:      Re: New Shoes

Tom,

Would you give us that URL to the new book again.  I haven't been able to find it in the book stores as yet.

Thanks.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:19:54
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: New shoes

For Ted Campbell (and anyone else interested)

No problem: this URL should take you right to "Shoes:"

http://www.altamirapress.com/Catalog/SingleBook.shtml?command=Search&db=^DB/CATALOG.db&eqSKUdata=0759101310

Or go to www.altamirapress.com and search for "Amelia Earhart."

You want to order the paperback version, which is (a) the update, (b) cheaper than the hardcover, and (c) carries an introductory discount as well, so  it costs only about US$16.00
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:39:47
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Kamui and/or Kamoi

I have a copy of the Kamoi deck log, and yes, she was off the coast of China.  No deck logs of the Koshu have been found, but I do have an oceanographic technical report documenting where the Koshu was up until July 4  and after July 23 (approx).  The Koshu was an oceanographic survey vessel taking hydrocast soundings on the equatorial counter current. Based upon the location and times of the soundings, one can constrain the speed of the vessel (gee...9-10 knots!), and then project when she arrived at Jaliut.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:27:18
From:         Art Carty
Subject:      Re: New Shoes

also available on amazon.com which is where I got mine

> From Tom King
>
> For Ted Campbell (and anyone else interested)
>
> No problem: this URL should take you right to "Shoes:"
>
> http://www.altamirapress.com/Catalog/SingleBook.shtml?
> command=Search&db=^DB/CATALOG.db&eqSKUdata=0759101310
>
> Or go to www.altamirapress.com and search for "Amelia Earhart."
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:28:53
From:         Jack Thomas
Subject:      Re: Forum changes

> From Dennis O. McGee
>
> small compared to payroll.   Your time, my time, Ric's time, it all gets
> translated to dollars and cents that has to come out of someone's pocket.

Thanks Dennis -- you've made my point for me.  Everyone who contributes their time to the forum is worthy of some recompense.  Only now, you pay for the opportunity to contribute -- unless you're Ric or Pat, in which case it's the other way around.  TIGHAR has made it perfectly clear that everyone's contribution to the forum except their own is not only valueless, but requires an accompanying fee.  And that's a decision that TIGHAR members seem overwhelmingly willing to embrace.

Personally, I find the whole notion very disagreeable.  And worse, $5.00 per month per subscriber is intentionally set to be beyond the cost of a membership so as to make the membership option more attractive and distract you from the fact that it's an absolutely absurd fee for a listserv in the first place.

Even if I had been tempted to become a member (and yes, I had), I certainly would not now.  I refuse to support an organization that makes this kind of decision.  It smacks of disdain for those who want to offer their assistance in ways OTHER than financial.

We've already heard from several forumites who would like to support TIGHAR but simply can't afford it.  Too bad.  They'll be booted, even though there are 400+ paying members who won't even use their free passes to the forum because they aren't subscribed.  So, hundreds of folks who would like to be on the forum will be banished, while hundreds who have no interest in it will be given free passes.  It's sheer genius!

I'm just stunned that anyone who truly cares about TIGHAR's best interest (and its image) would support this decision.

Well, I've said all I have to say.  This will be my last post.

-Jack Thomas

************************************************************************
From Ric

Jack got this in just under the wire.  Nothing I can say will change his mind but I do want to address his charge that "TIGHAR has made it perfectly clear that everyone's contribution to the forum except their own is not only valueless, but requires an accompanying fee."  That really hurts, and it's not true.  Jack cannot seem to grasp the basic transaction between the salaried management of a nonprofit and its supporters.  I'll run through it for anyone else who doesn't get it.

A.  A whole bunch of people are interested in solving a particular problem (curing diabetes, feeding starving children, saving endangered species, finding Amelia Earhart, whatever) that is not a viable subject for a commercial enterprise.

B. An organization is needed to carry out the needed work.

C. The organization relies heavily upon the volunteered services of the interested people.

D. But the interested people also recognize that the organization needs full-time, competent management.

E. So the interested people agree to contribute the funds necessary to provide their organization with the services of full-time, competent management.

F. The full-time competent managers, for their part, agree to work for less money than they might otherwise be able to earn in the for-profit corporate world.

Everybody, therefore, agrees to make sacrifices in order to achieve the desired end.

>Well, I've said all I have to say.  This will be my last post.

We'll take Jack at his word.

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:08:30
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: kamui and/or Kamoi

Alan,

Without looking it up, I think Mark Peattie's book, Nanyo, relates that the Koshu was one of the IJN ships out of Palau, and was manned by a military crew. The ship was the only IJN ship permanently stationed  in Micronesia until the late 1930s. The Capt was Konishi Tatehiko.

It was at Jaluit from 13 to 19 July, according to Aoki interviews and review of logs. As I have said before, Aoki found no evidence from her interviews with the Communication officer, etc., that AE or the Electra was fished from the water. [Aoki, "Was A. Earhart Executed, Bungeishunju, April 1983, translated by John E. Hodge,Prof of Japanese]

I don't have the Kamoi logs, but in the same article above, Aoki quotres a Yoneji  Inoue, who researched the Kamoi looking for crewmembers and logs, He acquired the ships newspaper and according to the paper, "it was clear that the Kamoi was already at Saipan on the day of the incident". It departed for ISE Bay (where is that ) the following day. The newspaper was not included as an attachement.

I don't think a day or two, what with the time zones differences, makes a big difference here. It is clear that the Kamoi was not in the search area and did not participate in the search.

Note my translator write Kamoi as KAMUI. AOKIs articles and book should be reviewed by any serious Earhart researcher. She even quotes Ric in her book.

LTM,
Ron Bright
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:16:30
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Kamui and/or Kamoi

Randy Jacobson writes:

> I have a  copy of the Kamoi deck log, and yes, she was off the coast of
> China.   No deck logs of the Koshu have been found, but I do have an
> oceanographic  technical report documenting where the Koshu was up
> until July 4 and after  July 23 (approx).

That's good information, Randy. WHEN was the Kamoi off the coast of China? Do the deck logs show where she was June 30 and until she was off the China coast? My source indicated she left Saipan on June 30th for Shanghai. Does that agree with the deck logs you have?

Secondly, where does the oceanographic tech report show the Koshu was during July 2 through the 4th?

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:36:17
From:         Alan Caldwell
Re:           Kamui and/or Kamoi

> She even  quotes Ric in her book.

I don't know that I would trust anyone who quotes Ric. <G>

Seriously, I don't trust interviews. The ship's newspaper ought to be a good source. Sadly it is not available I presume. Your information agrees pretty much with what I have found. It is patently clear neither ship was involved in any way with Amelia or the Electra.

At the time there were no Japanese army in the Marshall's but there were navy personnel. The Japanese also used fishing boats for intel however it was unlikely they would have had any involvement either. The Americans and British were fussing about the Kiribati area and for a Japanese ship to intrude would have been tantamount to a diplomatic incident. There was nothing at stake for the Japanese to have risked that.

The Japanese were sticklers for absolute adherence to their command structure and regulations. No local commander would attempt anything not cleared through NGS. All that traffic and documents, after the war, went directly to  ONI, bypassing Army and the other intel groups. Nothing on Earhart was found but of course conspirators will answer that they DID find information and covered it  up. You can't win. <G>

So, if the Japanese couldn't come to AE she had to come to the Japanese.  She had to be around 800 miles off course to the North. Having passed to the south of Nauru and over Tabiteaeu that had to be the gross navigation error since Wrong way Corrigan. And don't anyone start a Corrigan thread. Everyone knows it was a clever "mistake." <G>

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:36:58
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Kamoi or Kamui

I only have the records from the Kamoi for July.  I believe she was at Tsingtao, but don't quote me on July 1.  The deck logs that I have only go through July 31, and I believe she was still off the coast of China.

The technical report states that the stations were west of the Marshalls (lat/long data in the report along with GMT times at those locations), and there are a number of oceanographic stations from July 1-4, when the ship apparently left her survey to go to Jaliut.  If I remember correctly, the ship was about 5* North of the equator.  And in case anyone was thinking of this, no the ship was nowhere close to being under Earhart's flight path.


I have no direct evidence that the Koshu was involved in the Earhart
search, other than one or two telegrams stating so and a newspaper
article.  That same newspaper article stated that the Kamoi was also
involved in the search.  The date of the article was July 4 or 5.

Sorry for the ambiguity of dates and locations, but I am going on memory. If one really wants specifics, I can dig all of this stuff out of my files and post it.  To tell you the truth, it is not particularly relevant to the Earhart search or her disappearance...just tying up loose ends as reported in the US press.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:40:52
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      One fewer

Fewer and fewer of those who lived it are still standing. Regrettably, Ken Beer passed away in early December. He received his Air Corps' wings in 1928. One of his first flight instructors was Claire Chennault. He joined Pan Am as its' sixteenth pilot in 1929 and made the first Clipper flight from Honolulu to Canton. Ken retired in 1963 with 35,000 hours of seat time.

I had the great pleasure of interviewing him four years ago. He had just returned from a tennis match. He was gracious, articulate, and had a good recall of his flying days. Unfortunately for my Noonan research, the two of them were not well acquainted. I consider it an honor for him to have shared his experiences with me.

Go to the web site below for some more information on an amazing guy.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/12/12/MNBEERKENN3.DTL

blue skies, JHam
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:26:53
From:         Jon Greenberg
Subject:      Forum "scholarships"

I can't sponsor 10 but I can afford 2. A check for $110 for 2 memberships in the "Forum Fund" is in the mail.

Jonathan Greenberg #2047

****************************************************

Other people have also pledged to this cause, and we have a total of 6 memberships in TIGHAR now available for those who can't afford the cash hit but have a great deal to contribute. One has been taken, and one is under consideration -- we hope to persuade this person that it's a fair trade.

Let's hear it for TIGHARs!!

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:44:36
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Kamoi or Kamui

No, Randy. It isn't worth digging through your records. I think this is a dead issue. Those two ships can be disregarded. I have been told Japanese fishing boats WERE in our area but well monitored by New Zealand. It is always worthwhile to run down loose ends but I suppose we just as well go back to digging on Niku. <G>

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:21:51
From:         Alfred Hendrickson
Subject:      The forum fund

Pat: <<Can we start a "Forum Fund">>

Jon: <<A check for $110 for 2 memberships in the "Forum Fund" is in the
mail.>>

Kudos to you, Jon. That's a first-rate act of generosity. I say you are downright decent.

Alfred Hendrickson #2583
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:23:34
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Kamoi or Kamui

For Randy Jacobsen,

For direct eyewitness accounts of Earhart on the Koshu in July 1937 at Jaluit go to  the tape of Bilermon Amran by Brennan. Goerner was unable to dismiss Amrans account out of hand of treating two Americans, looking like Amelia and Fred, on the Koshu at Jaluit. Amran gave the same testimony to several reseachers, such as Vincent Loomis, see "Amelia Earhart, The Final Story". Who knows for sure. As in jury trials, one can believe a witness or not believe the witness. Probably as reliable as Emily.

LTM.
Ron Bright
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:23:56
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Kamoi or Kamui

Alan,

All we know for sure, that is factually supported, is that the Koshu was dispatched to search the Marshall Islands area for Amelia in July 1937. Aoki says the logs and her interviews do not support a AE/Electra pickup. But see my reply to Randy Jacobsen. One witness puts AE and FN on the Koshu in July 1937 treating the two American fliers. Bilermon Amran is the name.

LTM,
Ron Bright
2342S
PS I know this is not the forum to discuss Marshall Island survial scenarios.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:25:17
From:         Marjorie Smith
Subject:      Re: Kamoi or Kamui

> From Ron Bright
>
> I don't have the Kamoi logs, but in the same article above, Aoki quotres a
> Yoneji  Inoue, who researched the Kamoi looking for crewmembers and logs, He
> acquired the ships newspaper and according to the paper, "it was clear that 
> the Kamoi was already at Saipan on the day of the incident". It departed for 
> ISE Bay (where is that ) the following day. The newspaper was not included
> as an attachement.

Is "where is that" a question? If so, there is an Ise Bay in Japan. It's the ocean access to Nagoya, so it's one of the major Pacific Ocean harbors.
--
Marjorie Smith
122 North Church
Bozeman, MT 59715
406-587-8947
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:25:43
From:         Lonnie Schorer
Subject:      Re: Survival basics

I have contacted military and civilian archives, museums, bookstores, scouts, etc. and am still working on finding any and all camping and scouting manuals, outdoor literature, military m.o., ... that predated 1937, in an effort to determine what sources of survival knowledge Amelia could have had access to prior to her flight. I would certainly appreciate any and all EPAC and Forum help in this search!
LTM,
Lonnie
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:44:51
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Kamui or Kamoi

Thanks Marjorie Smith for the geographical lesson. I knew it was somewhere in Japan, and is consistant with other  information that the Kamoi was heading back to Japan after leaving Saipan. There is no evidence she looked for AE, although some of the news accounts  reported that activity.

LTM,
Ron B
2342S
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 18 Dec 2004 09:20:06
From:         Marcus Lind
Subject:      Re: Survival basics

For Lonnie Schorer:

Thank you very much for informing about your project! Really interesting.

Just an "addition": I also would propose "to count" not only the printed sources about survival procedures that could be available for AE before 1937, but also her (AE's) own background...

Yes, she grew up as a "little lady" in a gentry family,  but was still a "country girl" in some sense, as since childhood she was very active, liked all kinds of "outdoors"  and "active games" on the open. She even had a rifle and was quite well in shooting, also liked fishing etc.

Her parents were approval of these interests and activities and always ready to share any knowledge that they had (like her mother who showed to her "in all the details" how the prepare the chicken etc.), plus inspired her to read any books she (AE) ever could want to read - not only that very limited reading that was considered as "appropriate for little ladies" in those Victorian times.

In later period of her life Earhart still liked all kinds of sport and outdoors, including hiking, riding, sometimes fishing and camping with her friends and her husband GP. Particularly she really enjoyed the "camp life" in Dunrud's ranch in Wyoming in 1934 - so she even planned to have her own "cabin" in theat area after returning from World Flight.

All this doesn't mean of course that AE was a "professional survivor" of some kind... But certainly she has some right impressions and experience about "from what the natural world is made"... So obviously she had not that instinctive "fear" about natural life that is characteristic for many unaware pure "city habitants"  - the fear that may be really "paralyzing" when such an unexperienced person suddenly appears in unusual "wild life" conditions.

Of course Earhart's "practical knowledge about surviving" could be incomplete, fragmentary and generally enough modest, but it was her own and PRACTICAL - that maybe is really MOST IMPORTANT when the person suddenly appears in extreme conditions.

Best Regards - LTM, Marcus Lind
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:38:42
From:         Scott White
Subject:      Article on Nauticos

In case anyone is interested in a press account of the planned Nikos expedition discussed here recently. For what it's worth, there's a link to the Tighar web site at the end. I guess this appeared originally on the AP web site, though I'm not sure (it was forwarded to another list I read).
Best,
-SW

Dec 18, 2:24 PM EST

Marine Explorer Hunts for Earhart's Plane

By STEPHEN MANNING
Associated Press Writer

At 17,000 feet beneath the surface, the temperature of ocean water is just above freezing, oxygen is sparse and currents are relatively calm. In other words, ideal conditions for preserving an airplane that might have crashed into the depths nearly 70 years ago, according to marine explorer David Jourdan, who hopes to answer one of aviation's greatest mysteries - the fate of famed pilot Amelia Earhart.

Jourdan and his Maine-based company, Nauticos, plan to launch an expedition in the spring using sonar to sweep a 1,000-square-mile swath of ocean bottom west of tiny Howland Island in the Pacific Ocean.

It is the latest in a string of missions to learn what happened to Earhart when she, her navigator and their Lockheed Electra plane disappeared on a flight around the world.

"Things tend to last a time" in the deep ocean, said Jourdan. "Our expectation is the plane will be largely, if not completely, intact."

That is, if the plane is even in the ocean.

There is a host of theories about what befell Earhart and navigator Fred Noonan in 1937 as they made one of the final legs of their widely heralded flight.

Some have searched the sea, believing the plane ran out of gas. Others think she survived a crash landing but died on a deserted island. Another theory is that the Japanese captured and executed her. The conspiracy-minded claim Earhart survived and lived out her life under an assumed name as a New Jersey housewife.

This much is agreed on - Earhart and Noonan vanished July 2, 1937, as they approached an air strip on Howland Island, roughly midway between Australia and Hawaii. They had taken off from Papua New Guinea, just 7,000 miles short of their goal to make Earhart the first woman to fly around the world.

A fearless flyer, Earhart set a string of altitude, distance and endurance records in the 1920s and 1930s, proving the still-young world of flying wasn't reserved for men. She captivated a Depression-era America eager for heroes, was feted by presidents and was compared to Charles Lindbergh. The press dubbed her "Lady Lindy."

The Navy launched a weeks-long search of 250,000 square miles of ocean around Howland and a nearby chain of small islands. No trace was ever found of the plane.

One of those going along on the Nauticos mission is Elgen Long, a former commercial pilot who has spent 30 years researching the mystery.

Long, 77, of Reno, Nev., believes the answer to Earhart and Noonan's fate lies in their radio communications with a U.S. Coast Guard cutter that was tracking their course near Howland Island. Using Coast Guard radio operator's logs, Long concluded Earhart was perilously low on gas because a headwind was much stronger than she had anticipated. One of her last radio calls said she had only a half hour of fuel left and couldn't see land.

"We can follow her all the way across the Pacific," he said of the radio records. "She ran out of gas just when she said she was going to."

This is Jourdan's second search of the area west of Howland; a 2002 mission was aborted because of technical problems. The same general area was searched in 1999 by another mission that found nothing conclusive, but Jourdan said his new expedition, costing about $1.5 million, will use better sonar technology and more accurate information on where the plane may have crashed.

The shortage of oxygen and the fairly still water means a metal airplane likely would not have completely corroded, he said.

Any human remains would have long vanished, but Jourdan hopes to find clues such as Earhart's jewelry in the pilot's seat, or perhaps even Earhart's leather jacket.

"That would be eerie," he said.

If he finds it, Nauticos would plan another mission to raise the plane, which would become the centerpiece of a traveling exhibit on Earhart's life, Jourdan said.

Earhart's stepson, George Putnam, was 16 years old when her plane disappeared. Putnam, now 83 and living in Florida, said he supports the mission partly because it could end the wild speculation about what happened to her. He doesn't mind if Nauticos salvages the plane.

"Let's see what happens," he said.

To Long, it could be his last chance to solve one of the 20th-century's biggest mysteries.

"We need the true story of what happened," he said. "The history we read needs to be correct."

---

On the Net:

Amelia Earhart: http://www.ameliaearhart.com
Nauticos: http://www.nauticos.com/
International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery:
http://www.tighar.org
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 20 Dec 2004 13:32:37
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      Kamoi-Howland Flight Sim Scenery

To the TIGHAR forum;

I was metaphorically cleaning out my TIGHAR forum 'desk...top' in preparation of Feb. 1st. I was wondering what my TIGHAR forum anniversary date was? I do remember it was a time when a person's email address was posted along with their forum postings.

It would be perverse on my part, to financially deprive myself, just to buy oats for someone's horse when there are so many dead horses laying around on this forum. The reason that dead horses are laying around is basically a failure of logic. The culling of the herd seems to be leading the forum to a mutual admiration society and the study of the archaeology of NIKU and not the finding of Amelia.

Now onto something more substantial.

Where was the Kamoi ?;

  From the Navy's station B (Baker, Guam) OP-20-G log 28 June to 18 July, 1937 ".....During the period 29 June to 5 July inclusive, the Kamoi, Okinoshima, Asanagi, Yunagi, and Yokohama Air Station were active with aircraft maneuvers, terminating in a flight from the Kamoi to Yokohama Air Station by a Kamoi plane, on 5 July. On 2 July, the Kamoi was heard repeating his call sign, alternately on 7275 Kcs ( E ) and 6150 Kcs, for periods of 5 to 8 minutes, presumably to permit planes to take bearings.......( July 2, hand written date note on document) NEKA5 (Kamoi) heard on 7275 sending his call over and over. Alternated with 6100 Kcs at intervals of about 20 minutes. Believe this to enable planes to take bearings on him. This frequency probably an aircraft DF circuit."

Howland Island Flight Sim Scenery ;

For those with PC computers and Microsoft's Flight Simulator FS 2004 the Howland Island addon scenery is being uploaded to AVSIM.com and FlightSim.com today or in the next couple of days. It is FREE to download and install in FS2004 addon scenery.

I hope those with FS2004 have installed Microsoft's patch for the sim because it seems to be running better.

For the last few weeks I have been working with Al Heline to finalize the scenery. Until now if you were to look for Howland island in the FS 2004 default scenery you would have to do so using Lat &Long.

This scenery tries to duplicate what Amelia and Fred should have seen that morning. There is also an NDB on the island transmitting on 333 kcs. You can pick up the ADF from about 40 miles away. The NDB gives the island an 80 mile diameter RF circle.

If you want to fly the last leg between Lae and Howland you can use the sim's GPS to plot and follow the course line. Since the old airport is no longer there you can use the Lae NDB as a way point to start the course line to Howland.

Because I had input on this scenery project, Al was good enough to move the USS Swan for me. The USS Swan is sitting on 'Point AE' about 100 nm NW on 337. It also has an NDB onboard transmitting on 444 kcs. 'Point AE' is my theory/conjecture/interpretation of the '281 message' where Noonan decided to give up the search for Howland and use the remaining fuel for Plan B, the Gilberts, but they didn't end up there. If you want to find the Swan and/or fly the 281 scenario, take off from Howland and head 337 degrees. Keep the ADF on 333 kcs and the ADF Morse ID audio on. You will hold the signal for about 40 miles. In the dead zone re-tune to 444 kcs. If you have programed the GPS to keep track of Howland (KHAQ) then at the 60 mile mark you will pick up the Swan's NDB signal. Once you're overhead of the Swan turn to a heading of 281 degrees and see where you end up in 4 or 5 hours.

Since, at the present, there is no sim Electra 10E that meets my realism criteria, I would recommend using the Howard 500. It is a circa 1950-60s much modified Electra Model 14. File name "hw5vc4.zip" and the bare metal cargo version "hw5c4.zip". Both are necessary to use the bare metal cargo version which simulates AE's 10E. Both are FREE to download at the above mentioned flight sim sites. It also has a fuel totalizer on the instrument panel.

Also of note is a simulated Sextant for FS 2004 uploaded to the sim sites.

If any questions come up after Feb. 1st, Ron Bright knows where we are.

Daryll (Dead man talking)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:56:21
From:         George Werth
Subject:      Merry Christmas to All

For ALL TIGHAR MEMBERS (and lurkers, too)!

MERRY CHRISTMAS & a
HAPPY NEW YEAR!

George
# 2630
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:57:32
From:         Carl Peltzer
Subject:      Flight sims, final post

When you run the sim please attempt to find another plane other than the one described which has Pratt and Whitney R-2800 cb 16 engines putting out perhaps 3  times the power [2200]  and  more speed in almost the same size airframe.

I believe the Beech 18 would be much closer to the correct airframe in this
case.

***************************************

No more flight simulator posts. Ever. Please....

Pat
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:55:32
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas and
a Happy New Year
to Ric and Pat and

ALL TIGHAR MEMBERS

LTM
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:14:04
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: flight sims

> No more  flight simulator posts. Ever.  Please....
>
> Pat

Pat, don't be so hard. There are a lot of people who don't deal well with reality.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:56:10
From:         Mark Guimond
Subject:      Merry Christmas

To Ric and Pat, and to all TIGHAR Forumites (inlaws and outlaws alike), I wish a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, with no shortage of love, luck, health and happiness.

Mark
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:27:47
From:         Mike Haddock
Subject:      Re: Merry Christmas

Hi Pat & Ric,

I wish you both a happy and peaceful Holiday Season! Thanks for all you both do for all of us. I have learned and I have laughed often while being a member. I've gained two wonderful friends since joining TIGHAR. I'd say that makes it all worthwhile. God bless!

LTM,
Mike Haddock, #2438
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:32:44
From:         Emmett Hoolihan
Subject:      Re: Merry Christmas

Merry  Christmas Pat & Ric!

You've provided me with all I could possibly hope for from a membership in anything especially the forum which addresses the  long time fascination I've had for Amelia.

Happy Holidays,

Emmett Hoolihan #2405L (lurker)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:33:21
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas to all TIGHAR members, Forum subscribers and all the folks who have lurked and/or participated here over the year. Special wishes for our hard working leaders, Ric and Pat.

Everyone who has been here is greatly appreciated, including those few I give a lot of grief to, especially Daryll and Angus. <G> Couldn't resist.

PS. If some of our money feeds the horse and cat, it's OK by me.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:33:59
From:         Ken Earhart
Subject:      Re: Merry Christmas

Merry Xmas to you also.I had my Amelia Earhart 9 years years old for a long weekend and will have Amelia and her sister Hannah for Xmas day too.The  funny thing is that My Amelia Earhart was born in the Philippines ,the South Pacific.My Ancestor Amelia Earhart, the flyer was lost in the south  Pacific and out of the South Pacific came my Amelia,Have a good one, Ken Earhart
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:57:52
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Re: Merry Christmas

Happy holidays to the extended TIGHAR clan and may the new year bring great discoveries.

blue skies, JHam
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:55:18
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Merry Christmas

To One and All

Merry Christmas

Yours,
David Bush
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:58:45
From:         Suzanne Astorino
Subject:      Re: Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Merry Kwanzaa! Merry Ramadan! I hope I've covered all the "reasons for the season"!

Best wishes to everyone for a very happy and healthy 2005!

Love, Suzanne  #2579
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 25 Dec 2004 11:13:15
From:         Stijn de Jong
Subject:      Merry Christmas

Very happy holidays to all, and blue skies in 2005!

Stijn de Jong, Netherlands
======================================================================== 
Date:         Sat, 25 Dec 2004 11:14:00
From:         Marcus Lind
Subject:      Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year - best regards and very good wishes for all the members of this Forum!

LTM - God Bless You all, sincerely - Marcus Lind
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:12:41
From:         Adam Marsland
Subject:      Christmas corroboration

I just got back from a hiking trip in the Mojave tracing old alignments of Route 66, and wanted to share something that bears, however slightly, on the Niku hypothesis.

My friend and I were hiking an old road that led us down to a railroad track, where another road ran along the track.  Dusk had fallen but we thought that we had seen an intersecting road that should lead down to the railroad track so instead of turning the way we came, we followed the road by the railroad track back, hoping to find another way up to the road we came in on.

It was quite awhile before we found any route back up the hill but eventually we found our way...the question was, which side of the small desert road that led back to our car were we on?  We knew we had to be close, but being that close, we had no idea whether to turn right or left.

We both felt that it was probably to the right, but we walked a few hundred yards to the left to make sure we weren't right at the intersection and couldn't see it.  Not finding the road, we headed right.  And kept heading right. And more right.  In fact, we walked about 3/4 of a mile down the road leading right.  And even though we had a growing sense that we'd come the wrong way, we didn't want to backtrack over and over again.  And in fact we did not turn around until the landscape changed so undeniably that we knew we had gone too far.  When we turned around and came back we found the intersection just a little ways up from where we had originally hit the road.

So it hit me that this is exactly what TIGHAR theorizes Earhart did when she couldn't find Howland, and having been in that situation, it makes perfect psychological sense that regardless of the presence of islands to the southeast, whatever the SECOND direction Earhart turned in, she would just keep right on going.  Having gone one way and not seeing anything, you don't want to risk that just up ahead might be the place you're looking for, and once you've gone too far, you realize having used up that much time (and in her case, fuel), there's no point in backtracking.

Incidentally in the dusk we barely saw the faint road back, and would have missed it completely were it not marked by a hubcap.

Anyway, that's my armchair psychology for the day.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:41:17
From:         Ken Earhart
Subject:      Re: Christmas corroboration and Related to Earhart

I think its pretty good and interesting and probably very close to the truth.

Amelia Earhart spent a lot of time in Toronto Ontario Canada and on one of Amelia's Earhart visits my Grandfather knew that she was staying at the Royal York hotel in Toronto.One day he knew she was at the hotel and went to the Royal York to see if he could have a talk meeting with her.After the meeting of approx 1 1/2 hours he came away from that chat and told my Dad that Amelia Earhart was his niece and so that was what my Dad and the family was told,and the story still is told with my family of Earharts.My cousin Don Earhart has done some extensive research on the Earhart family tree,but just lately has slipped on some ice and broke his hip and is recuperating from that fall.His e-mail address is don earhart @ sympatico.ca
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:42:00
From:         Jerry Geiger
Subject:      Re: Christmas corroboration

Adam-

I'm glad you found the right road.  Your experience was an excellent comparison with AE's last hours, I'm sure.  However, had you not found the right road, think how much fun the forum could have had theorizing about your secret mission for the Governator, searching for the Lost Dutchman Mine, which would solve California's budget problems.  We could discuss your capture by a gang of hooligan prospectors, your imprisonment, and eventual secret execution.  Then there would be those who, 30 years from now, would swear they had seen you under a new name selling turquoise jewelry at a roadside stand in New Mexico.  Ahhh, the possibilities!

    LTM (who never liked hiking),
    Jerry
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:31:53
From:         Adam Marsland
Subject:      Re: Christmas corroboration

Well, I did find the original, forgotten alignment of Route 66, but that is a story for another forum.  ;)

> However, had you not found the
> right road, think how much fun the forum could have had theorizing about
> your secret mission for the Governator, searching for the Lost Dutchman
> Mine, which would solve California's budget problems.  We could discuss
> your capture by a gang of hooligan prospectors, your imprisonment, and
> eventual secret execution.  Then there would be those who, 30 years from now,
> would swear they had seen you under a new name selling turquoise jewelry at a
> roadside stand in New Mexico.  Ahhh, the possibilities!
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:08:29
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Signal Strength

We were discussing whether or not there was a signal strength indicator aboard the ITASCA as we know many of the signals received were assigned a number from 1-5.

In Don Dwiggins book, "Hollywood Pilot", a biography of Paul Mantz, AEs technical advisor, he wrote:

"At 7:42 her voice suddenly exploded in the radio room   loudspeaker, driving the signal volume meter needle to S-5...KHAQQ calling...are flying at altitude 1000 feet."
[p. 103]

Dwiggins gives a narrative approach to his chapter about Mantz and Earhart with no cites or footnotes. We know that  the radio crew recorded the signals at "5" but it would be nice to confirm with the meter.

I am still trying to get to Dwiggins notes which include a great deal of Mantz' notes and papers.

LTM,
Ron Bright
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:44:16
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Signal Strength

Ron, my impression was that there was no actual "signal strength meter" but that the numbers were assigned by the operator comparatively and not at the time  of the transmission. I may be entirely wrong but that has been my recollection  when this was discussed before. Please don't take this as a fact.  <G>

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:45:59
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Signal strength

Here is another Lazarus Horse.

> From Ron Bright
>
> We were discussing whether or not there was a signal strength indicator
> aboard the ITASCA as we know many of the signals received were
> assigned a number
> from 1-5.

Please be aware, this is some author who was not there and has very little, if any, idea as to what sorts of receivers were aboard Itasca; or, whether these radios even had a signal strength meter.  He is probably embellishing this scene from his own imagination, i.e. exercising some creative license.

> In Don Dwiggins book, "Hollywood Pilot", a biography of Paul Mantz, AEs
> technical advisor, he wrote:
>
>     "At 7:42 her voice suddenly exploded in the radio room loudspeaker,
> driving the signal volume meter needle to S-5...KHAQQ calling...are
> flying at altitude 1000 feet."
> [p. 103]

Please be aware also, that no matter what the meter may have read, these readings are only RELATIVE, and are absolutely no indication of any absolute value of signal strength.

It is most accurate to think of an "S-meter" as a tuning indicator. When you are tuned "on the nose" to a signal, the reading will peak. But it is not an indicator of the actual strength of the signal.

There was no -- repeat, NO -- standard calibration of S-meters in those days.  An S-5 reading on one radio might be an S-9 on another of different manufacture.  And even between receivers of the same make and model, S-meter calibration could and did vary significantly, being dependent on a number of factors including but not limited to:

The design of the receiver, in terms of how much total amplification ("gain") the set was capable of

The setting of the sensitivity control ("gain" control), which could vary with the operator's preference, or as a manner of coping with local noise at the receiving site  (the "S-meter" is only truly accurate when the receiver is operated at maximum gain, which is not always the case in practice, especially in a noisy environment)

Condition of the tubes

Condition of various other components in the receiver (resistors, capacitors)

How accurately the receiver was aligned (i.e., how well it was internally adjusted)

Component value variation due to normal manufacturing tolerances  (in those days, component tolerances of 20 per cent were the norm; later, 10 per cent came to be accepted, but almost every 1937 radio was built of 20 per cent components)

Indeed, S-meter readings were often a form of hype among manufacturers. For example, if a Hammarlund receiver would give an S-meter reading of 5 on a given signal, but a Hallicrafters receiver's S-meter would read 9 on the same signal, the gullible could be convinced that the Hallicrafters set was "hotter."  In reality, however, there was often very little difference between the two., in terms of actual sensitivity.

> Dwiggins gives a narrative approach to his chapter about Mantz and
> Earhart with no cites or footnotes.

AHA!  Authorial intrusion!  Which means, we can't trust this account.

Just because this secondary author says it happened this way, does not mean it did.

As the ancient Greek historian Herodotus says about the words he records in his Histories as having been uttered by Great Men (and I am paraphrasing here):  "Some, I heard myself; some were reported to me; and when I had no account, I put into their mouths the words they should have said, given the circumstances."

> We know that  the radio crew recorded
> the signals at "5" but it would be nice to confirm with the meter.

IF there was a meter!  (And I am neither accepting nor denying this; but I am somewhat skeptical.)   "Signal strength" was mostly a matter of the operator's judgement, and his own interpretation.  Even with a meter, one operator might call a signal S-4, while another might say S-5. I've seen it done that way.  And been there, done that, myself.

> I am still trying to get to Dwiggins notes which include a great deal
> of Mantz' notes and papers.

It would be interesting, to be sure; but I wouldn't count on finding anything profound.  After all (don't forget this):

Mantz WAS NOT THERE.

Neither was Dwiggins.

I respectfully submit, Ron, that you're trying to read way too much into this.

Please remember, we CANNOT take these "S" readings as gospel.  And, perhaps in anticipation of another question,  there is no way to determine distance between a receiver and a transmitter from an "indicated" signal strength, unless a whole lot more parameters are known than we will ever be able to determine in the case of AE.  And the equipment needs to be quite closely calibrated to accomplish this ; more closely than any 1937-vintage receiver's S-meter.

I think we need to call a convocation of SPADE (Society for Prevention of Abuse to Dead Equines), and re-inter this dear departed horse.

LTM (who believes what she sees, not what she reads in the papers)
and
73
Mike Everette
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:30:08
From:         Tom Byers
Subject:      Re: Signal strength

The varying signal strength would be consistent with an airplane circling, going in and out of range of Howland.
Tom Byers
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:45:05
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Signal strength

Mike Everette wrote:

> There  was no -- repeat, NO -- standard calibration of S-meters in those
> days.  An S-5 reading on one radio might be an S-9 on another of
> different manufacture.  And even between receivers of the same make and
> model, S-meter calibration could and did vary significantly, being
> dependent on a number of factors including but not limited to:....

Mike I can't believe you would say this and list all the reasons why the "strength meter" issue is utter nonsense. Do you realize that shoots down all the precision work and analyzing Nauticos and Long did in order to pin down exactly where the Electra went into the drink? They are about to spend millions based on complete garbage information.

Of course I'm being facetious, Mike. That was an excellent summary of why there is no significance to the S5, etc. in connection with determining distance or location of the Electra. What they also don't explain is how S5 gives me a bearing.

Truthfully I thought all this was so obvious no one would stake a nickel on it but clearly I was wrong.

I tried to point this out eons ago when they first aired the piece on Long and Nauticos and company building a radio to "duplicate" Earhart's to do their analysis. I built such equipment for Bendix and no radio is exactly the same but  I guess I'm preaching to the choir here aren't I? <G> At any rate the bottom line is that there are a myriad of unknown variables that would make the task impossible.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:11:42
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Signal strength

Alan said: "That was an excellent summary of why there is no significance to the S5, etc. in connection with determining distance ..."

When I was working at intercept sites back in the 60s it was not unusual to get S5 readings from our operators copying targets well over 2000 miles away, and S2 or less from targets within a couple of hundred miles.  The next day those evaluations (and that is what they were, we had no meters, everything was based on the operators' experience) could easily be reversed.

LTM, who no longer reads (listens to) other gentlemen's mail
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:33:51
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Signal strength

Mike,

I posted Dwiggins comment re the alleged Itasca signal meter needle with the caution that he had no cites or references. It was just the only reference that I saw in the literature that addressed the "meter" business.

Mantz wasn't there of course, but I thought there were some radio experts who had studied the ITasca receivers and identified them which in turn might prove or disprove if they had meters.

And as you point out, even if they did, it may not be indicitive of distance, etc.

It is a fact that the radio operators heard an ever increasing signal strength, even though subjective during the last hour or so. (Bellarts interviews).

Would it be fair to say that with AE saying she thought she was "on you" at about 0742 along with the perceived signal strength of "5", she was within say 30 miles or so.

LTM,
Ron Bright
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:08:50
From:         Paige Miller
Subject:      Re: Signal strength

Tom Byers writes

"The varying signal strength would be consistent with an airplane circling, going in and out of range of Howland."

What varying signal strength might that be, Tom? As I recall, Earhart's signal strength as heard by Itasca increased continuously, until the last three messages were recorded at S-5.

--
Paige Miller
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:42:56
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Signal strength

> From Paige Miller
>
> Tom Byers writes
>
> "The varying signal strength would be consistent with an airplane
> circling, going in and out of range of Howland."

Yes, that is a possibility, because  the antenna's radiation pattern is influenced by the aircraft structure; and, also by the course and attitude of the aircraft.

> What varying signal strength might that be, Tom? As I recall,
> Earhart's signal strength as heard by Itasca increased continuously,
> until the last three messages were recorded at S-5.

Again, I think you are taking all this too literally.

There could very well be some flutter-type fading on an HF signal from an aircraft, due to multipath reception.  That is, the direct line-of-sight path from aircraft to receiver on the ground, as well as other reflective paths from aircraft to sea surface, aircraft to ionosphere, etc. which could vary the signal strength momentarily due to phase cancellation.

And, yes, this phenomenon does exist at HF (high frequency); though it can be much more pronounced at VHF (which of course was not in use in 1937).

Again, please let me emphasize:  "S-meter" readings are not indicative of any sort of "true" value of signal voltage.  The meter readings (if there was a meter, and not just an operator's Mark One Earball, involved) are only RELATIVE.  They are not quantitative.

And please don't think the Mark One Earball is a finely calibrated instrument.  It generally hears what it wants to.  The results are subject to many variables, the most significant being "The Operator's Judgement."

I note a tendency, when certain topics on the Forum are discussed, to try to reduce everything to mechanics; or to a simple math equation where you put in figures, turn the crank and out comes an answer that "should be" simple.

Sorry.  It isn't that simple.  Not then, not now, not ever....

LTM (who would agree that more is better)
and
73
Mike Everette
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:19:07
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      Corrugated at Seven Site

I've been thinking about the corrugated iron at the seven site and how it fits into the puzzle.

You have argued that it may have been the castaway(s) who dragged it by hand or floated it down there, while Tom likes to think that it may have been laid out by Gallagher to cover areas of his search.

I think that both arguments tend to fall into the wishful thinking category, and would like to toss out my own ideas for consideration.

I tend to reject the idea that it was the castaway(s) as it represents a tremendous amount of work that requires a very compelling reason, yet I don't see the compelling reason for the castaways.

You might say that the collection of water was the compelling reason. I'm thinking about this in terms of what the cost and benefits would be to simple survival.  Would it make sense to spend precious resources (particularly water which I think we can all agree would be a critical need) on moving heavy sheets of iron 2 miles to construct a large water collection device?

Whoever moved the iron surely required a lot of water to stay hydrated during such a project, and only would have chosen to undertake moving the iron 2 miles if they knew it wouldn't kill them in the process. Having been there and gone through over 120 oz  of nice boat produced fresh water in a day of scaevola hacking, I think that the effort to get 20 (where did we get this number from again?) sheets of iron 2 miles down the lagoon, whether by hand or by raft, would have been a major net loss in terms of hydration - kind of like trying to catch a fish by hand, you'll spend more energy than you get out of eating the fish, so it isn't worth doing.

I don't see the castaways moving the iron unless they already had some sort of source for fresh water and could afford to spend their precious fresh water budget on moving the iron, which in and of itself means that they didn't have a compelling reason to do it as they already had the water they needed.

Tom's idea that Gallagher used the iron to cover over areas of his search is also hard for me to go with.  My opinion only, but it seems to me that Gallagher would have had much bigger things to worry about than preserving search area for some future search.  He had a colony to build for King and Country, by God!

Which brings me to my own thoughts on why the corrugated is there.  I think that we have to look at the artifacts and connect the dots as simply as possible.  What we have is a bunch of corrugated iron, perhaps as much as 538 sq ft (50 Sq meters - Tom King's guestimates) that most likely originated from the Arundel structures, some rolled asphalt covering 160 to 260 sq ft (16 to 25 sq meters), and some corrugated galvanized 160 sq ft (15 sq m) that seems to be associated with the water tank that was obviously placed there by the colonists. I think they are all related.

I started to think about the water tank and what it would take to keep it filled.  The tank is approximately 1x1x1 meter according to your best estimate (and personal observation), although if it came out of the British Empire it is probably 3'x3'x3'.  For simplicity, let's call it one cubic yard that would contain 201.9 US gallons.  It was probably called a 200 gallon tank by the guy who sold it to the Police in Tarawa.  I'm sure somebody will check the calculations, so please let me know if I've got this figure wrong.

TIGHAR found 6 half coconut shells in the tank, so we can conclude that the tank was put there to service up to 6 persons.  6 persons doing some serious work like the brush clearing that we see evident in the 1941 (?) air photo at the 7 site will go through a significant amount of water in a day.  Would you agree that one gallon per person would be reasonable for clearing brush at the 7 site by hand?  Assuming that the tank is full, you would have about 33 no rain days worth of water in there for 6 workers.  You wouldn't want to start the clearing / search project until you knew that the tank was at least partially full.

The question then becomes, what does it take to fill a tank like that with water?  This got me thinking about my house in the Caribbean that utilizes a cistern to store water that is captured by the roof when it rains.  Historically the end of St. Thomas where my house is gets approximately 40 inches of rain a year, and most of that comes during the rainy season.  The local rule of thumb is that you need 10 gallons of cistern storage for each 1 sq ft of roof, or a 10 to 1 ratio, if you want to size your cistern to capture all the water it can while not being so big it will never get filled.  Why spend the money on cistern that does you no good?

It is interesting to note that the cistern that was built on Niku does have a slightly over sized roof (one end of the roof is built out and creates an overhang "proch"), but looks pretty much like a regular house until you get up close.  Wasn't the guy who built the cistern (Jack Petro?) there about the time the search was conducted?  Would be interesting to see what the surface area to volume ratio is for that  cistern, but from the looks of it it is probably pretty close to 10 to1 (or maybe 8 to 1) ratio of gallons to sq ft..

Applying the 10 to 1 formula to the tank at the 7 site, Gallagher would need some 20 ft Sq of collection area to fill the tank on average through out the year, assuming an annual average of 40 inches of rain. However, there are several mitigating factors.  First the 7 site seems to me to be a much dryer part of the island than the vilage.  Do we have any idea what the average seasonal rainfall might be for Niku? Second, we know that they were just coming off a period of extended drought.  Third, Gallagher was tasked with a specific project to search for more bones in a relatively short period of time.  These three factors would argue that Gallagher would have increased his collection area as much as possible to get and keep the tank as full as possible before and during the time his work / search party was down there.  He simply couldn't count on the annual average rainfall, he needed it ASAP and the only way to accelerate the filling of the tank was to oversize the collection device.

But this is 1941 and early in the colony, where is he going to get the materials to create a collection area?  It would make sense to scavenge them from the old Arundel site rather than take what building materials he needed for the new village.  No need to waste any badly needed new construction materials, just lay the old "scrap" iron out on the hill above the tank and run a channel / pipe down and into the tank.

In my mind, Gallagher is the guy with the compelling reason to move heavy sheets of corrugated iron down to the 7 site to build an oversized collection area, and he is also the guy with the means to do it in terms of personnel and the ability to hydrate his workers until the system is operational.

What about the corrugated galvanized that was found near the tank, and the asphalt roofing sheet?  I think this was done after the fact with surplus materials that came from the Loran station or the village. Somebody decided that it was a good idea to have a source of water out there for the rare occasions when they passed by, and rehabilitated the corrugated iron collection system (which was probably getting pretty rusted out) with a new pieces of galvanized and the lumber to hold it in place over the tank.  Since it was rarely used, it didn't need more than a small collection area, hence the small amount of galvanized in comparison to the corrugated iron.  We do know that it was used occasionally as somebody complained when the coasties punched a hole in it with their .30 cal carbine.

Dennis McGee made some good points in his 12/7 posting, in particular is the question of how the castaway would store water collected from 500+ sq ft of collection area?  It just wouldn't make sense to build that much collection surface to fill a Benedictine bottle, and hauling a drum down there only adds to the scope of the hydration problem.  How do you do it without dying of thirst in the process?

I think the simplest answer is to connect the obvious water collection materials (which by the way could have doubled as the roof of a house for Gallagher) with the known water storage device, both of which were put there by folks with a very compelling reason to do so, and the manpower and the resources to do it.  I don't think the castaway fits the bill, but Gallager does.

Happy New Year

LTM (who's very thirsty)
Andrew McKenna
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:49:11
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Corrugated at the Seven Site

Andrew -- The only problem I have with your means of accounting for the corrugated is that there's a good bit of distance between the non-galvanized corrugated on the ridge and the tank down in the hollow (with the galvanized corrugated).  Of course, the tank could have been moved at some point after Gallagher et al brought it, and the non-galvanized corrugated, to the site.  Worth thinking about, and testing via closer examination of the  ridge corrugated on our next visit.

LTM (who's glad to see her children proving their  metal)
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:44:54
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Signal strength

Mike, you are right on the money. Folks try to take assumptions and make facts out of them. I CAN cite one fact that so far no one has disproven. That is that the last known position of the Electra was at Lae airport around 10 AM although the time is not known precisely. There is no known data to pin point the Electra's position at any time thereafter, Angus, Long and Nauticos to the contrary. No such data even exists or existed in 1937.

Alan
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:42:31
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Signal strength

> From Alan Caldwell
>
> Mike Everette wrote:
>
>> There  was no -- repeat, NO -- standard calibration of S-meters in those
>> days.  An S-5 reading on one radio might be an S-9 on another of
>> different manufacture.  And even between receivers of the same make and
>> model, S-meter calibration could and did vary significantly, being
>> dependent on a number of factors including but not limited to:....
>
> Mike I can't believe you would say this and list all the reasons why the
> "strength meter" issue is utter nonsense. Do you realize that shoots down all
> the precision work and analyzing Nauticos and Long did in order to pin down
> exactly where the Electra went into the drink?

Yep.  For sure.

> They are about to spend millions
> based on complete garbage information.

Just like I say every year when the circus train pulls outta town... "I'm darn glad there ain't none 'a MY money wavin' 'bye-bye' at me from th' last car...."

> Of course I'm being facetious, Mike.

Yes, of course I know this.... (but I wasn't, above, heh heh heh)

LTM (who knows that sincerity is no guarantee of truth)
and
73
Mike E.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:43:02
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Signal strength

> From Ron Bright
>
> Mike,
>
> Would it be fair to say that with AE saying she thought she was "on you" at
> about 0742 along with the perceived signal strength of "5", she was within say
> 30 miles or so.

It is POSSIBLE.  But, beware:  That is the EASY explanation.  Too easy. Just because it is POSSIBLE does not make it ABSOLUTE.

Please refer to an earlier post regarding strong signal strengths from far distant stations, and weak signals from those closer by.

It all has to do with radio propagation, which is subject to many variables and vagaries.  So many in fact, that as a science it sometimes borders on necromancy

I have experienced some wierd phenomena where radio propagation is concerned, at HF and VHF.  Nothing is impossible.

A "for instance:"  I observed "skip" or "sky wave" interference so severe, once, on 39 MHz, that a local police department in eastern NC could not hear their cars at all,  that were two blocks from, and in direct sight of, the main station antenna.  The police dispatcher in NC was having to get relays  through Fargo, North Dakota.  This went on for almost an entire day.

NOTHING is impossible.

LTM (who hears EVERYTHING)
and
73
Mike E.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:44:05
From:         Angus Murray
Subject:      Re: Signal strength

> From Alan Caldwell
>
> Mike, you are right on the money. Folks try to take assumptions and
> make facts out of them. I CAN cite one fact that so far no one has
> disproven.

If it is really a fact, that it cannot be disproven is self apparent.

> That is that the last known position of the Electra was at
> Lae airport around 10 AM although the time is not known precisely.

(Not known by Alan that is).

> There is no known data to pin point the Electra's position at any time
> thereafter,

But this "fact" is not a fact but merely an assumption - unless of course Alan knows everything that is known.(!)

< No such data even exists or existed in 1937.

Alan is taking assumptions and making facts out of them (.....again!)

Regards Angus.