Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:50:13 EST
From:         Ron Berry
Subject:      Re: Off Topic- Clark Gable

The first successful ejection of a live human was on 8/17/46 by Sgt Larry Lambert from a P61 at 300 MPH at 7800 feet This was done somewhere in the U.S.. Clark was released from duty sometime in June of 44 so he could not have had anything to do with the ejection seat testing. Unless he was one of the first failures, but I think they were mostly scraped up or exhumed from the hole that made for themselves.

LTM -Who was never ejected from anywhere.
Ron 2640
********************************************************************

From Mike Holt

I don't know about Gable's piloting skills outside the movie "Test Pilot," but the P-61 was used to test the first ejection seats. The particular P-61 was called "Jack in the Box," and was used only for a few tests. I've seen photos of the plane, but I don't seem to have any here.

Mike Holt
*********************************************************************

From Alan

His bio said he went through gunnery school but there was never any mention of flying training.

Alan
***********************************************************************
From Herman De Wulf

Clark Gable had been trained as an air gunner. He did not learn to fly in the army. There is nothing in his military training or his subsequent career as a film maker with the USAAC indicating any qualification to be involved in ejection seats. Are you sure the P-61 had ejection seats ? First flight of the prototype XP-61 was on 21 May 1944. It looks a bit doubtful Clark Gable would be left near one of the two prototypes during the three weeks before being relieved from active duty on 12 June 1944.

LTM
**********************************************************************

From Craig Fuller

"Army Air Forces First Sgt. Lawrence Lambert took the honors as the first airman in the United States to make a seat ejection from a moving aircraft when he punched out of a Special P-61B on August 17, 1946."  From "Darkly Dangerous, The Northrop P-61 Black Widow Night Fighter"

More details at the USAF Museum's web site:
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/postwwii/esd.htm

Clark Gable was relieved from active duty on June 12, 1944

LTM
Craig Fuller #1589CE
AAIR Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research
http://www.AviationArchaeology.com
********************************************************************
From John Harsh (#634C)

I've resisted adding to this thread but something bothers me and I have to ask. Did Gable really receive a DFC? Wouldn't an Air Medal have been more appropriate?

LTM, who would really like to have a DFC on the mantle.
*********************************************************************
From Ric

I don't know about the DFC but it's abundantly clear that the Clark Gable ejection seat story is pure fantasy.
======================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:52:25 EST
From:         Gary LaPook
Subject:      Re: Chichester's circle

But Chichester was using a marine sextant so didn't have to maintain straight, level and unaccelerated flight.

Gary LaPook
======================================================================== 
Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:53:32 EST
From:         Gary LaPook
Subject:      Venus

I think we went over this area a couple of years ago. Since there were many stars available prior to sunrise Noonan would not have needed to use any of the planets at that time. The only thing unique about the brighter planets is their possible use during daylight (if they can be located) so as to provide a fix instead of only the single sun line of position that is usually the only thing available during daylight hours.

We also know that the moon (which is easily found during the day) was available during daylight at the time of the approach to Howland but there was some concern expressed that its azimuth or altitude may have made it difficult (but not impossible) to use for obtaining a fix.

Gary LaPook
======================================================================== =
Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:55:13 EST
From:         Gary LaPook
Subject:      Re: almanac

> how far, timewise, into
> the dawn were any celestial bodies still visible enough on which to
> take a reading.

The answer is up to the end of "civil twilight" which occured about 20 minutes prior to sunrise on that day and at that location. At that point even the brightest stars disappear though a bright planet may be seen later and, of course, the moon may be available all day.

Gary LaPook
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:52:58 EST
From:         Christy Chreyts
Subject:      conspiracies and such

A nun? Let me get this straight: we have a conspiracy to repatriate Ms. Earhart with religious overtones (traveling with a priest, dressed as a nun). Ms. Earhart returns and lives a life of obscurity, under a new identity, until the book gets published--the original witness protection program. What were they (by the way, I love "they") protecting her from? This conspiracy is then rooted out by a secret closed society (the Masons?, the Knights Templar?, no AES!) Such balderdash! Why must people create the absurd and chant it as de facto conspiracy? I am not buying the book.

How many instances of a true conspiracy revealed can you identify? I can come up with a few, maybe 1/2 dozen, that may or may not qualify depending upon how strict your definition of "conspiracy" is. I know this is off-topic but, bless me, this is maddening! Why do perfectly reasonable people insist on believing absurdities? The moon landing was not staged. Elvis is dead. There is no face on Mars. There are not now, nor were there ever, little green men in Roswell NM. What psychological phenomena accounts for the intense desire, yearning, for relatively reasonable, functioning people to perceive conspiracy everywhere? Is it the drama? How do you, or even is it possible, to reach these people, to discount their theories sufficiently to warrant a change of mind? Any proof you may present contrary to the theory could simply have been manufactured to disprove the conspiracy..."we don't know how high up this cover-up goes!" A lack of evidence to support a conspiracy is simply an indication of how well the act was covered-up, a testament to the talent and perseverance of the acting agents. Documents can be removed, faked...UGH!!! It is beautiful to believe and impossible to discredit.

Publish this or no...hit a sore spot.

Christy Creyts
Once a member, now a lurker.
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

I wasn't kidding when I said that the Earhart/Bolam threory is a neurosis, not a hypothesis.   The abandonment of rational thought processes for the sake of embracing a conspiracy theory seems to have more to do with a person's worldview than with the subject of the imagined conspiracy.   And no, nothing you or I or anyone else can say will change their mind. There are, of course, real conspiracies but eventually they are exposed through the discovery and release of hard evidence, not through the endless promulgation of folklore.   Do conspiracies that are never discovered really exist?  Perhaps, but I'm not at liberty to discuss that.

LTM,
Ric
========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:22:15 EST
From:         Alan Caldwell
Subject:      Re: Off Topic- Clark Gable

> Did Gable really receive a DFC? Wouldn't an Air Medal have been
> more appropriate?

Probably but he IS truly listed as receiving the DFC.

Alan
========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:34:47 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Conspiracies

Christy asked: "Why do perfectly reasonable people insist on believing absurdities?"

Because they are no longer perfectly reasonable people? (On second thought, make that a declarative statement, rather than an interrogative.)

LTM, who seeks reason, but accepts excuses
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
*********************************************************************
 From Herman

I like that story about Clark Gable as a test pilot better...
************************************************************************ 
 From Alfred Hendrickson:

The only missing element is the glossy black UN helicopters. Those are my favorite.

LTM,

Alfred Hendrickson, PE
TIGHAR Sponsor Member #2583
************************************************************************ 
From George Rat Werth

WOW!
======================================================================== 
Date:         Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:31:44 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Forum under reconstruction

Please pardon the gibberish.   We're fixing the problem.
======================================================================== =
Date:         Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:30:19 -0500
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Forum back in business

Thanks for your patience.  The forum is now back in business and we should have our extraneous symbols problem solved.  The gibberish was caused by HTML code in emails which, when processed by the forum distribution software, came through as extraneous symbols.

Fixing the problem meant getting out of the AOL system which means that all of our email addresses here at TIGHAR now end in @mac.com (rather than @aol.com).

YOU DON'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT THAN YOU'VE ALWAYS DONE.  TO SEND A POSTING TO THE FORUM ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS HIT "REPLY". All forum postings automatically now go to TIGHAR1@mac.com.

Non-forum TIGHAR business can be sent to me at TIGHARIC@mac,com
Non-forum TIGHAR business can be sent to Pat at TIGHARPAT@mac.com

I'll try to get all the back postings put up on the forum this evening

LTM,
Ric
======================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:05:00 -0500
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Virus alert from Ric

Several, maybe all, forum subscribers have received a message that looks like a forum posting from me with the subject line "Re: ello! =))".   Ignore it.  Delete it.  It's a virus.  It has nothing to do with our recent email address change to solve the HTML gibberish problem. It is not originating from TIGHAR.

Here is forum subscriber Dan Ball's assessment of where it is coming from:

*******************************************************************

Again this afternoon I received a virus-message "supposedly" from you. I forwarded one to you yesterday, but didn't include much information... Below is the message I received, along with the full message header... Since I know you enjoy dissecting things, and I do this for a living, here is a diagnosis...

- The message is a result of a computer being infected with the W32.Beagle.H virus.
(http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.beagle.h@mm.html)

- Since this particular virus only affects Windows, that narrows down the list of possible infectees considerably.

- The message was sent to tighar@xl-online.com, which is ONLY used by your forum.  It was a "fake" e-mail address I setup to receive e-mail from your forum.  This narrows it down to a Windows computer that has access to your e-mail distribution list.  (I haven't done any research on what software you are using, but it appears to be a Windows or Linux based software.)

- The messages are arriving without massive addressee lines, which means the software being used to send it is concealing addressees.  This means that it is unlikely that a recipient of the list is the culprit.

- The messages appear to have originated at the home.ease.lsoft.com SMTP server, which is the initial server that received the e-mail.  Since this server seems to be hosted at the same place that is handling your listserv, it is likely originating from a computer that is actually handling your mailing list.

- Based off of the message header, this server appears to be running the LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b software, which kind of confirms the above suspicions.

- The message is using " The Amelia Earhart Search Forum <EARHARTFORUM@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>" as a From: line.  This means that the infected computer has to have both e-mail addresses residing on the hard drive.  This again points to a Windows computer that has direct access to the e-mail distribution list addresses.

- The message ID is <tbghfroablcrasoerfo@aol.com>, and is shown as "Approved-By:  TIGHAR1@AOL.COM". This implies that the message originated from an AOL user, went to the distribution group, and was approved by you. This throws a wrench in the above hypothesis, but is an viable alternate hypothesis.

So, the best thing to do is for you to check any windows-based systems that might have access to the e-mail list.  Then, if all them appear to be clean, check to see if other members of the forum received the same virus via the forum.  In either case, a notice of the possible infection should be sent to all forum users so they can check their computers.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:22:10 -0500
From:         David Kelly
Subject:      Off Topic- Clark Gable

For what it is worth, the first successful test firing of an ejectionseat was on 20 Jan 45 at Martin-Baker. They fired sand bags. A few days later (24th Jan 45) Benny Lynch -- a fitter from the Martin-Baker factory was test fired -- and survived.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:27:30 -0500
From:         Pat Gaston
Subject:      Conspiracies

"Why do perfectly reasonable people insist on believing absurdities?"

I think a couple of factors come into play.  First, there is a natural human tendency to balance cause and effect:  for every great tragedy, there must be a Great Cause.  The most obvious example is the JFK assassination. To this day millions of Americans, notably including Oliver Stone, refuse to believe that the dynamic Kennnedy was cut down in his prime by a chronic loser wielding a $12 mail-order rifle.  Yet history shows that the "lone gunman" is the rule rather than the exception in presidential assassinations.  Garfield's killer, Charles Guiteau, was a disappointed office-seeker.  Guiteau wanted to be named Ambassador to France, which goes to show you how profoundly disturbed the man was. McKinley was assassinated by Leon Czolgosz, a self-styled anarchist with a history of mental illness.  John Schrank shot Teddy Roosevelt at point-blank range in 1913 simply because "any man looking for a third term ought to be shot" (TR finished his speech before going to the hospital).  And let's not forget John Hinckley, who very nearly killed Ronald Reagan in order to impress a movie starlet.

There is an active network of Pearl Harbor conspiracy buffs, who contend that FDR knew the precise day, hour and location of the coming attack but allowed it to happen.  Our unpreparedness could not have arisen from mere complacency and communications snafus; there >had< to be more to it. (The accepted view is that FDR and his advisors did know an attack was imminent -- the Japanese cablegram of December 6 made that pretty clear -- but not when or where.  Many thought it would come in the Philippines.)

A substantial number of Americans, including NJ Gov. Harold Hoffman, believed that Bruno Hauptmann could not have kidnapped the Lindbergh baby by himself.  Like Oswald, he was merely the front man for a massive conspiracy.

The Lincoln assassination is the exception to the rule because there > was< a conspiracy, although it was not nearly so widespread as many then believed, and continue to believe today.  Alleged co-conspirators through the ages have included Jefferson Davis and Secretary of War Edwin Stanton. Suffice it to say that both theories are preposterous.

The second factor common to most conspiracy theorists is a sense of powerlessness, which manifests itself in a profound distrust of government -- or for that matter any large institution.  The world is not run by kings or presidents, but by secret cabals who shape affairs to their own sinister ends.  Over the centuries, this dark confederation has included, but not been limited to, the Knights Templar, Freemasons, Rosicrucians, Catholic Church, Illuminati, Trilateral Commission,  Warren Commission, CIA, Elders of Zion, Halliburton and Skull & Bones (for a primer see http://conspiracy.freewebspace.com).  In short, nothing is as it seems -- explaining why we little guys are powerless to do anything about it.

The existence of Factor Two is necessary to explain Factor One.  Only a conspiracy at the highest levels was capable of covering up the "truth" behind Pearl Harbor, or the JFK assassination, or the fate of Earhart, without leaving a trace.  As Christy has correctly noted, the fact that nobody has come forward to spill the beans on all these nefarious doin's simply demonstrates how effective the conspiracy was.  It is thus a circular argument that can never be refuted because it is "proved" by a lack of proof.

Pardon me, I have to go now.  The black helicopters are here to pick me up.

Pat Gaston
======================================================================== 
=
Date:         Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:00:57 -0500
From:         Marsha Watson
Subject:      Re virus alert from Ric

I received both virus infected emails -- one yesterday and one today. I try to make it point not to open attachments. This morning I received two notifications, one for an undeliverable address that informed me that an email I had sent contained a virus and one from the person who supposedly received the email sent by me. Both the email address and the person's name were unknown to me. I have already deleted these emails and am not even sure which type virus it said they contained. Is it possible that my email address has become attached in someway off your list and is sending out infected emails to unknown people? I re-ran my Norton virus scan this morning and it said there were no viruses found on my computer.

Marsha Watson
************************************************************************
From Ric

Apparently the virus got into the L-soft listserve system and showed up in several email lists.  Our Earhart forum was only one of several that were affected.

************************************************************************
From Jim Preston

Just tell the Forum users to buy a MAC and they won't have to worry about VIRUS'. My MAC at home wasn't affected. Just my PC at work running win 98.

JImbo
*********************************************************************
From Ric

Right on.  MAC rules.

************************************************************************
From Malcolm Andrews

The virus-ridden emails I have received (four at last count) are supposedly from Richard E Gillespie and contain the message "I don't bite, weah! Password for archive 34877". All have an attachment which is where the virus obviously lurks.

Malcolm Andrews
# 2409
***********************************************************************
  From Ric

That's correct. That what the message says.  But it did not really come from Richard Gillespie.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:18:10 -0500
From:         Kerry Tiller
Subject:      Re: Virus alert from Ric

Just for the record, I've received the virus infected e-mails as well (recognized the "format" and deleted them without opening the attachment), and I am a MAC man (always have been, currently running 9.2.2 on a G4 tower). In fact, just in the last couple weeks I have been getting, almost daily, strange e-mails from multiple sources with brief text lines and what I assume are virus infected attachments. I'm guessing that since I use a MAC, even if I opened the attachments the virus wouldn't work on my computer (but, of course, I don't take that risk and just delete the e-mails). I have also gotten some "undeliverable" e-mail notices from servers about e-mails I have never sent, which means my e-mail address is being used to forward virus infected e-mails. The virus infected e-mails I have gotten from this forum are the first ones that came from a source I recognize. I blame this ration of virus infected e-mails invading my MAC on the fact that I use Outlook Express for e-mail. I'm sure my e-mail address has been used to relay virus infected e-mails; I just hope I wasn't the cause of the mess on this forum.

Kerry Tiller
**********************************************************************
From Ric

No, it looks like the problem originated from within the L-soft Listserv system.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:20:54 -0500
From:         Rick Maze
Subject:      Re: Conspiracies

First:

And  why is it perfectly reasonable people can so blithely toss off anything they don't agree with by pulling the "conspiracy theory card" or win a debate by simply saying "There you go again".

Gatson lumps together selected bits of history encompassing 150 years and files under "A" for absurd without demonstrating a single piece of research.

There is much that goes on this world that isn't going to make the FOX news broadcasts.

Second:

Please take me off this email list.  I've tried the suggested channels several times over the past year but to no avail.

I went to the lecture, I bought the book, and now I'd like to move on. I do hope you find Amelia but I'll find out about it later OK?

Thanks

********************************************************************
  From Ric

As you wish.
======================================================================== 
Date:         Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:24:25 -0500
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Off-Topic - Clark Gable

For the record, the first operational aircraft equipped with an ejection seat was the Dornier Do-335 Pfeil (arrow), a German fighter aircraft that saw limited service at the end of WW II. This was a twin engined aircraft of CLT configuration (CLT = Center Line Thrust in which one engine is in the front, the other in the back. It had a sustained maximum speed of 413 miles per hour which could be increased to 477 m.p.h. with emergency boost. Getting the pilot out of the airplane in case of an emergency was a major problem because of the rear propeller. This was solved by equipping the D-335 with explosive bolts jettisoning the canopy, the horizontal tail surface and the rear propeller. There being single seat and tandem seat prototypes tests were made with sand bags being jettisoned by ejection seat. Following these test later models were equipped with ejection seats. I have no information on whether a live pilot was ever ejected. At each encounter with Allied fighters the Do-335 proved too elusive because of its speed. Design of the Do-335 had begun as early as 1940 but was brought to a standstill when Dornier was told to stick to production of bombers. By 1943 the "fast fighter issue" was taken up again. The prototype first flew from Oberpfaffenhofen airfield in September 1943. The aircraft was equipped with two Daimler-Benz DB 603 12-cylinder inverted V liquid cooled engines and nosewheel gear. Production then began of 20 further prototypes, each differing from previous models through improvents and armament, which included 20 mm and 30 mm guns and by more powerful 2,100 hp Daimler-Benz DB 603 LA engines. In the Spring of 1945 an experimental unit was formed to test the Do-335 operationally. This was "Erprobungskommando 335". It was then that the unusual German push-pull fighter was first sighted by Allied crews. Production was underway at the end of the war. In all 37 aircraft were built but it was too late for the type to see combat as the war ended on 8 May 1945. At that time the type was still only flown by Erprobungskommando 335. At least one Do-335 survived the war. I believe it is on display at the Museum of Technology in Munich.

LTM
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:33:26 -0500
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Forum back in business

> Non-forum TIGHAR business can be sent to me at TIGHARIC@mac,com

TIGHAR ... IC is RIC ?

> Non-forum TIGHAR business can be sent to Pat at TIGHARPAT@mac.com

And TIGHAR ... PAT  is PAT ?

They couldn't spare you another consonant?  :)

      - Bill #2229
***********************************************************************  
From Ric

I donate every consonant I can spare to the I-Kiribati language.  With words like Bauareke and Taraia they need every consonant they can get.
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Mar 2004 14:27:38 -0500
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: Forum back in business 

I did receive a number of queer mails lately from persons unknown to me. I also received virus warnings and when I answered these mails (without opening the attachments) asking what was going on, the addressee proved not to exist. I also received warnings from webmasters informing me of e-mails sent by me which I  
never sent.

Other mails were press releases sent a year ago by a (European) airline. It proved their computer system was used by some outside source infecting their address lists. These things have happened in the past and were solved. They seem to have been solved today as well. At some time I suspected the mails coming from a person who had access to the Earhart Forum, which seems to be confirmed today by other subscribers. I suspect it must be some lurker who got hold of Tighar's mailing list. And I suspect he must be American. I suspect it is someone who sold that list on some market, which explains why I was subsequently submerged by spam from US companies trying to lend me money, sell me US cars, spend my money on real estate in the US, etc. He must be a successful hacker. I'm no specialist in computer hacking, so I rely on my Norton Anti Virus system. It tells me one frequent hacker attacking my computer since is situated in the San Francisco area. I filed a complaint with the local police and was given the coordinates of the person involved and of the authorities to contact. But why bother going through the cost of suing someone in California for acts which are punishable by law in this country but may not be punishable in the US? So I simply rely on my Norton Anti Virus which apparently works very well. It tells me who the hacker is, where he lives and leaves it up to me to sue him.

LTM
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Mar 2004 14:29:45 -0500
From:         Jim Preston
Subject:      Re: Virus alert from Ric

Kerry, you would have less problems using Netscape 7 then Outlook Express and IE. I have been using Netscape since my days working for Apple and have never had major problems. I haven't seen a Virus since 1995. I have always used Norton also. Jim Preston
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Mar 2004 14:31:39 -0500
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Off Topic- Dornier

Hermann said: "At least one Do-335 survived the war. I believe it is on display at the Museum of Technology in Munich."

Not any more.  I think it has been moved back to the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum, which has legal title to the plane.  It was in Munich for several years being restored by Dornier and later was on display at the technology museum, which is a real neat-o museum for any one thinking of going there.  Do-335s are one of the neatest planes to come out of the war.  Even cooler than the Me-262, Me-163, etc. etc.  IMHO!

LTM, who denies a conspiracy of designers: Cessna 337 and Dornier 335, hmmmm! :-)
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:07:58 -0500
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      Re: Forum back in business

Bill,

They were running a little short of full stops (periods in the US) too! "TIGHARIC@mac,com "

<grin>

Th' WOMBAT
*************************************************************
From Ric

Aaargh....should be mac.com of course.
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:51:43 -0500
From:         Pat Gaston
Subject:      Re: Conspiracies

For Rick Maze:

"Gatson [sic] lumps together selected bits of history encompassing 150 years and files under "A" for absurd without demonstrating a single piece of research."

Actually, Rick, you are right.  I just made up all that stuff about Guiteau, Czolgosz, Schrank, Hinckley, Hauptmann and FDR off the top of my head.

Seriously, before you criticize my research (or lack thereof), perhaps you should do a little of your own.  Or would the facts just get in the way?

Pat "s before t" Gaston
************************************************************************
From Ric

I honored Rick's request and removed him from the forum.  Personally, I found your observations on conspiracy theories and theorists to be well-informed and well-reasoned.
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:58:03 -0500
From:         Linn
Subject:      Re: Virus alert from Ric

Ric wrote:

>Apparently the virus got into the L-soft listserve system and showed up
>in several email lists.  Our Earhart forum was only one of several that
>were affected.

Could you explain what the L-soft listserve system is? I have a suspicion of what it is, i.e. the server. The next question is where is the server...your house or Earthlink or wherever? You're saying the server sent out e-mails with a known members address which kicked back as a wrong address to the known member. Is this possible? Have I got this right?

Ms. Linn Lewis
************************************************************************
From Ric

This is how the forum works.

"Listserv" (no "e")  is a registered trademark licensed to L-Soft International, Inc.

L-Soft International is in the business of providing services to electronic mailing lists such as the Earhart forum.  TIGHAR pays for this service.  The expense is covered by a sponsor - Select GIS Services (thanks Jim).

When I send a message to the forum it goes to the L-Soft server located in northern Virginia which then distributes it, via the Listserv software, to all of the Earhart forum subscribers.  When you reply to a forum posting your message, likewise, goes though the Listserv software which forwards it on to me, the forum moderator, for review, comment (if any), and posting.  To post your message I have to copy and paste it into a new email which I then send to L-Soft for distribution to the forum because only I, as "list owner" can post messages to the forum.

Apparently a virus got into the Listserv software that sends messages masquerading as the "list owner".   That's why all forum members get bogus postings that look as though they are coming from me.  The virus also seems to be sending messages that masquerade as various forum subscribers which, of course,  get rejected because they're not from the "list owner.
=======================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:15:26 -0500
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Not dead, just slow

Spring must be in the air.  The only forum postings I've received for the past few days are from people wondering why there have been no forum postings for the past few days.

No, the virus did not kill the forum.  In fact, I've heard no more about that problem.  We just seem to have hit one of those slow times that come along every once in a while (and during which I can actually get some other work done).

TIGHAR's final review of Reineck's book is now up on the TIGHAR website (www.tighar.org).  I'm not laboring under any illusion that it will put an end to the Irene Bolam nonsense but at least the truth is now out there for anyone who cares to have it.

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:07:00 -0500
From:         Warren Lambing
Subject:      Re: Reineck book

Sorry to admit i didn't follow the tread on the book, or Irene Bolam, lack of time for reading the whole forum.  But what little media coverage I caught, I kept hearing, that on her death record, the names of her parent's were not listed.  From doing genealogy for many years, I found that to be a humerous point of reasoning, a death record is only as good as the person giving the information, not uncommon to find no information on a person parents, if the person giving the information doesn't know.  From reading your review, this is a mute question, but did anyone take the time to send for her Social Security File, which will indeed have a record of her birth, her parent, where born, and how the information was attain and she does indeed show up in the Social Security Death index, (http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/) which means she did file a claim, and the information is, for a fee, available to the public.

Regards
Warren
********************************************************************
  From Ric

Good question.  I don't know, but the conspiracy crowd is much more interested in speculation and suspicion than in doing real research. Heck, Reineck didn't even look at the court records.

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:35:59 -0500
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Lurkers

Ric said:  "Heck, Reineck didn't even look at the court records."

Speaking of Rollickin' Rollie Reineck, is he still lurking here?  I mean, with his busy schedule I was wondering if he has the time to follow the "competition."  How about the rest of the AES bunch?

LTM, who neither lurks nor stalks
Dennis O. McGee #0149E
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:54:07 -0500
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Reineck book

For Warren Lambing,

Yes, I checked the SSDI index, SS 100 16 8396, issued in New York, indicating that Irene Bolam, nee O'Crowley was born on 1 Oct 04, and died in July 1982, at Jamesburg, N.J. (There are two Irene Bolams, the other unrelated). 

Irene Madalaine O'Crowley , nee, was born at Newark , N.J., at her parents residence. No birth certificate has been found on file. She was the daughter of Richard J. and Bridget Doyle O'Crowley, of Newark. [ Obituary, The News Tribune,Woodbridge, N.J.July 8, 1982]

She later married a Charles Craigmile, then after his death, married Alvin Heller. Divorced  from Heller c. 1939, she married Guy Bolam in 1958 and lived at Bedford , N. Y. The same place that Martha Stewart has a home.

I have a timeline from birth to death on Irene. Of course, noone can pinpoint or state exactly, not even Rollin, when Amelia Earhart allegedly returned to the US and assumed the identity of the exisiting Irene Craigmile,(later Bolam) circa 1945.

Recently, (not published here) I listed a number of valid reasons that Amelia wasn't Irene Bolam.They are are  the many  witnesses who knew both AE and Irene Bolam PRIOR to 1937, and Bolam after 1945. All rejected the notion Irene was AE, based on physical and other characteristics.

The most vocal rejection came from long time competitor and "friend", fellow aviatarix Elinor Smith. In 1982, in an interview with a Middlesex Co reporter, she made it quite clear that the IB that died in July 1982 was not Amelia Earhart. [Middlesex Publishing Co, Oct 1982]

Some researchers, such as Rollin Reineck,  claim that those witnesses either agreed to maintain the government secrecy or out of friendship to AE, declined to identify her. It wasn' t until twenty years later, Aug 1965, that Irene Bolam was seen at a Early Fliers Club meeting  and thought to be Amelia Earhart by long time Earhart researcher, Joe Gervais. Until then noone had recognized or at least publically stated they thought that Irene Bolam looked like Amelia Earhart.

Lest you think Elinor Smith was lying about her statements about the identification, George Carrington wrote: " It was Earhart who...purchased ...her fourth Vega from her friend and detractor Elinor Smith with her own funds, a rival woman pilot with claws reminiscent of a cat's working on a sofa arm, judging from her published comments".  [Carrington, p. 10]

Elinor Smith in her book "Aviatarix", published in 1981, also did not like GP at all, and in many ways blamed him for the unsuccessfull flight.

I submit that Elinor Smith would not be covering up for AE and  was telling the truth when she said that Irene Bolam, who she knew at Jamesburg, was not Amelia Earhart.

LTM,
Ron Bright
************************************************************************
From Ric

After we've finished shooting down the idea that Irene Bolam was Amelia Earhart we can try something a little harder - like shooting fish in a barrel.
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:22:10 -0500
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Reineck book

Irene Craigmile is listed in the 1930 US census in New Jersey, Morris County, Pequannock district 62, age 25, married to Chas. J. Craigmile, age 40, born in Illinois.

Daniel Postellon TIGHAR#2263 LTM (love that Morris County)
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:34:18 -0500
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Reineck book

Thanks Dan, Do you have census records for Irene Craigmile in 1940, or Irene Heller, in the other census dates. After divorcing Heller in 1949, she took back her married name of Craigmile. 1950 would be interesting.
Ron
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:45:41 -0500
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Re: Reineck book

1940 and 1950 census data are not available yet.  I can't find her on the 1920's census, or the 1910 census.  It might be a name and indexing problem. Damn
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:29:31 -0500
From:         Rollin Reineck
Subject:      A challenge via Reineck

Mr. Gillespie,

Mr. Tod Swindell has ask me to forward the following message to you. Mr. Swindell's e-mail address is classified.  If you wish to respond, send your reply to me and I will forward it.

From Tod Swindell date Thur, mar11, 2004 to reineck711@webtv.net Subject Re: Reineck Book.

ASK RIC GILLESPIE AND RON BRIGHT IF THEY WILL ACCEPT MY INVITATION TO MEET ME FACE TO FACE, WHILE JOINING ME AS GUESTS ON A TV SHOW WHERE I WILL BE REVEALING THE FULL BODY OF MY FORENSIC STUDY FOR THE FIRST TIME. SERIOUSLY, IF THE TIGHAR PRESIDENT WILL AGREE TO JOIN ME IN A FACE OFF, I BELIEVE I HAVE A WELL KNOWN TELEVISON SHOW TAKER, AND  KNOW I WOULD ENJOY THAT, AND FOLKS WILL NEVER TRY TO OVER- CHALLENGE THE GERVAIS-REINECK- SWINDELL "IRENE-AMELIA CONVEYANCE" AGAIN.

NO, THEY CANNOT PREVIEW THE MATERIAL FIRST. IF THEY ARE SO CERTAIN THAT GERVAIS-IRENE WAS NEVER KNOWN AS AMELIA EARHART, THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE SOUND EXPLANATIONS TO OFFER FOR THE INFORMATION I WILL BE PLACING BEFORE THEM.

THE TV SHOW WILL BRING IN TWO NON-CONNECTED, ACCREDITED FORENSIC HUMAN ID SPECIALIST TO EXPRESS THEIR OPINION AS WELL . BUT RIC HAS TO AGREE TO IT.  IF SHOOTING DOWN YOUR BOOK AND THE IRENE-AMELIA IDEA IS AS EASY TO HIM AS SHOOTING FISH IN A BARREL, HE SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM ACCEPTING MY CHALLENGE.

OR, TELL RON AND RIC THAT IF THEY WANT TO TRY AND PUBLICLY DISCREDIT ME, I AM OPEN TO ALOWING THEM TO DO SO AS LONG AS I CAN BE THERE IN PERSON, DISPLAYING MY MATERIAL WHILE THERE IN THE PROCESS OF DOING SO..

TELL RIC, IF HE DOES  NOT ACCEPT MY CHALLENGE THAN THAT CLEARLY EXHIBITS HIS FEAR OF WHAT I CONTROL. OTHERWISE, I'M THE FISH IN THE BARREL HE IS LOOKING TO SHOOT, AND I'M GIVING HIM THE CHANCE TO DO JUST THAT.   TOD SWINDELL.

Rollin C. Reineck ---- Kailua, HI
************************************************************************
From Ric

Col. Reineck,

So the fish in the barrel with the "classified" email address wants to meet me face to face on some unnamed TV show of his choosing and present evidence he will not disclose beforehand, backed up by two unnamed experts of unspecified accreditation.  Sounds like a fair fight.  This should be fun.

I can't speak for Ron Bright but I heartily accept, with three conditions:

- The date has to fit my schedule.

- I get to bring as many forensic experts as he does and he has to cover our expenses.

- The TV show either airs live or, if taped, is not edited.

Alternatively, I'll meet him at dawn on a hilltop in Delaware.  Choice of weapons is mine.  I choose swords.

Or, if he is serious about wanting his screwball theory accepted he could publish a paper in a respected peer-reviewed journal.

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:40:24 -0500
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      The Swindell Challenge

Tod Swindell screamed: "TELL RIC, IF HE DOES  NOT ACCEPT MY CHALLENGE THAN THAT CLEARLY EXHIBITS HIS FEAR OF WHAT I CONTROL."

Gadzooks, fans, is this Darth Vader . . . The Joker? . . . . Square Head? . . . .Bluto . . . or Col. Klink?

And Ric, what have I always warned you about "clearly exhibiting your fears" in public?  That's right; people will think you're a weenie. Now, buck up, dude, and quit exhibiting yourself..  Scheeze!  :-)

LTM, a reformed exhibitionist
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
=======================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:49:02 -0500
From:         David Kelly
Subject:      Re: a challenge via Reineck

Ric said: "Alternatively, I'll meet him at dawn on a hilltop in Delaware.  Choice of weapons is mine.  I choose swords."

I suspect you may be inundated with people offer to be your second on this one.
************************************************************************ 
From Jim Tierney

Ric----Well, Well, Well.......
There is activity on the AES front......Looks like all your questions/ comments/ explanations/ inferences have borne fruit.....Messrs Swindell and Reineck have surfaced AND issued a challenge to the TIGHAR Debating Society on local TV no less.....

I wonder where---Hawaii, OK, TX, NJ, NY, CA, Fargo, or another outpost of civilization and civility.......

I, for one, will be eagerly awaiting the meeting-along with the other lurkers out here in cyberspace.....

Good Luck---I hope it can be arranged----I might even be willing to pay for it on the telly or cable.........

Best wishes and of course you will let us ALL know what transpires....
Jim Tierney
Simi Valley, CA
************************************************************************ 
From Ronnie Grubb

Ric,
 How much do you want to bet that one of your 3 conditions (or your acceptance in general)causes Swindell to back out?

LTM, (Who only made bets on sure things.)
Ronnie
************************************************************************ 
From Ted Campbell

Ric,
This has to be one of the dumbest challenges I've seen! It reminds me of the old "what color am I thinking about" challenges.

If Swindell has in fact a "well known television talker" set up, what will he/she do? Moderate the debate, just sit there and say nothing or participate with questions, comments or share background information?

If the "talker" is going to actively participate then I would think that any "talker" with any credibility would want to review the subject beforehand (including anything presented as fact or speculation and most assuredly the credentials of any "expert"). I would think that as a minimum any data/information presented to the "network" i.e. "talker" would likewise be made available to TIGHAR in advance and in a timely manner. Furthermore, some type of debate structure i.e. who talks first, how long, a followed agenda, etc., would be in order to prevent a babbling rambling one sided dialog by either debater.

Good grief, this challenge sounds more like a perquisite to a pulpit pounding opportunity to sell one's book than a debate to present one's facts to support a theory of some importance. Ric, I would carefully lay down your own criteria for this debate before accepting and see how receptive the other side is to a real intellectual exchange of ideas -

I would start with your critique of the book and the questions presented to Reineck, after all he's the author isn't he or did he just do the typing?

Sounds like a dumb idea!!

Ted Campbell
************************************************************************ 
From Paige Miller

Todd Swindell screamed at the top of his lungs:

TELL RIC, IF HE DOES  NOT ACCEPT MY CHALLENGE THAN THAT CLEARLY EXHIBITS HIS FEAR OF WHAT I CONTROL. OTHERWISE, I'M THE FISH IN THE BARREL HE IS LOOKING TO SHOOT, AND I'M GIVING HIM THE CHANCE TO DO JUST THAT.

Hmmm, I suppose that if this was the third grade, and you are given a dare like that, and you don't comply, then yes, you are afraid.

Research however, proceeds at its own pace. Mr. Swindell obviously had time to gather some information and put it together. I think rebuttals of a theory like this do not need to be instantaneous, despite Mr. Swindell's preposterous statement. Its perfectly okay to take some time and compile information as a rebuttal.

Of course, there is that annoying matter of Irene Craigmile listed in the 1930 US Census separately from Amelia Earhart.

--Paige Miller
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

Normally I would not even respond to anything as childish as Swindell's challenge (courageously shouted from an undisclosed secure location somewhere behind Rollin Reineck) but, as we saw from the review of Reineck's book in the LA Times, the handful of wackos who peddle this nonsense can occasionally get the attention of media outlets who should know better.  Somebody needs to stand up and expose them for what they are.

By the way, a simple Google search on Tod Swindell (one d) will give you his address, phone number, and email address.

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:04:57 -0500
From:         Clayton Davis
Subject:      Re: a challenge via Reineck

I would advise your challenger to comport himself in a scholarly manner. Publish his material for the world and his peers to review.

Oops. Perhaps his peers are as misunderstood as he is. Why are kooks always wanting to "duel" regular folks?

CLAYTON DAVIS
=======================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:16:47 -0500
From:         Mike Holt
Subject:      Re: a challenge via Reineck

> Alternatively, I'll meet him at dawn on a hilltop in Delaware.  Choice
> of weapons is mine.  I choose swords.

No, I don't want to be your second, but I do want to watch.   I'm sure that event could be televised.  Maybe if the hilltop thing happens AFTER the debate, the dawn meeting could pay for the debate.

> Or, if he is serious about wanting his screwball theory accepted he
> could publish a paper in a respected peer-reviewed journal.

There is a serious question I have about the Bolam idea.  If AE did become Irene Bolam, what then?    Almost all the same questions go unanswered, as best I can tell.    The airplane is gone, those stamps are gone, Fred Noonan remains  missing, the Japanese link is unconfirmed and FDR's role is  unexplained, and no one seems to know what happened to Irene when AE came back.   We still don't have  anything explained.

LTM,
Mike Holt
************************************************************************
From Ric

No problem.  The wackos have an answer for everything.  They just don't have any evidence.  You just have to believe.
************************************************************************
From Bill Leary

Ric:
> I can't speak for Ron Bright but I heartily accept, with
> three conditions:
> - The date has to fit my schedule.
> - I get to bring as many forensic experts as he does and he
>  has to cover our expenses.
> - The TV show either airs live or, if taped, is not edited.

Assuming this is accepted, I wonder how you're going to enforce the conditions?

I can foresee, for example...

Agreement on the date then "Oops, we have to delay two days" followed by a public announcement "Gillespie pulls out of debate at last minute, claims 'scheduling conflict'."

They agree to two experts each, but show up with five guys, claiming that the extra three aren't "experts" but just witnesses to something or other. How do you respond at that point?

They say it won't be edited, but then it is and claim "Well, we can't control what the TV station does."  What's your response there?

I'm not even sure live, and with equal time, would work.  One of the problem with cleaning up a mess is that while it takes only moments to create a mess, it often takes hours to clean it up.  Whether it's a physical mess, like spilled food, or a logical one, like these claims, the clean up time is often WAY longer.  Amazing claims can be made, and made to sound plausible, in minutes but it can take a lot of time to knock the supports out from under them.  In general, logic is poor television.  The most important material is that which is most likely to be edited out.

      - Bill #2229
************************************************************************
  From Ric

Yes, there are any number of ways we could be Swindelled but the only way to deal with these clowns is to meet them head on and call their bluff.  I've already had an offer from a TIGHAR member who would cover my expenses.  Our forensic contacts have responded with enthusiasm to the idea and I would imagine that it won't be a problem to get their expenses covered also, so if the other side wants to use money as an excuse we can relieve them of that burden.  My schedule is pretty flexible.
=======================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:52:44 -0500
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: a challenge via Reineck

Bill Leary wrote:

> ... Amazing claims can be made, and made to sound
> plausible,
> in minutes but it can take a lot of time to knock the supports out from
> under them.  In general, logic is poor television.  The most important
> material is that which is most likely to be edited out.

I have a lot of confidence in Ric's ability to handle himself and any three to five of the opposition in a televised debate.

I believe, on balance, that he will attract lots of viewers to come see what TIGHAR has to offer.

If other experts can attend with him, so much the better.  They can use the book to prepare their briefs.  Ric has also done a lot of homework on the court case, along with some qualified researchers.

Ric is very photogenic and is quick on his feet mentally.  He's gotten stuck in some quicksand and guano out in the Pacific, but I don't think that should be held against him.  I think he'd put on a good show.

Marty #2359
*********************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

There's no business like show business.

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:11:11 -0500
From:         Jim Walrath
Subject:      Re: a challenge via Reineck

The first indication that Todd Swindell, with Rollin C. Reineck as his front man, is not a real person is that a real person of such intellect would correctly spell words and punctuate sentences. Therefore, Ric, this is a conspiracy and the government is hiding Swindell while ferreting out the truth about TIGHAR.

The type of meeting that Swindell is proposing is exactly the gang mentality of parents who have an agenda and want to get at a coach.

Individually the parents do not have the courage to debate the issues in a face to face individual conference, rather they want a "group" meeting. Of course they will not talk to the coach about their issues ahead of time.

The type of program Swindell is proposing is like the format for a Jerry Springer program, which is hardly the venue for a serious debate. Ric and Swindell should have their meeting but that meeting should be prior to any public presentation. The meeting could be one-on-one with at least one form of recording such as a written transcript by a professional such as a court reporter, audio media or video media. The recorder(s) would be an uninterested party. Also, there would be an uninterested witness, chosen for high character, for additional verification, such as a judge or other trustworthy person.

At the meeting the issues would be debated and evidence presented. Then a public airing of each side of the issue would be done. To avoid being blind-sided at the public airing, only the issues at the individual debate would be allowed and the outline of the issues to be presented would be announced at the beginning of any airing, and a trustworthy moderator would keep the presentations to the outlined issues.

Another venue for this meeting could be before a law class as a mock trial. Both sides would present their cases including witnesses, experts, research and all. All sides would have to follow judicial protocols, such as disclosure. The results would be announced by the "jury" of law students. The trial could be taped and aired on the TV show.

My disclaimer is that by virtue of my lurking on the TIGHAR forum I lean toward the scientific and open approach taken here. And, I do believe exploring and debating all sides of a topic are important to proper research, no matter where they come from.

Well, enough said. I do believe a little passion of mine is showing.

   Jim W.
*******************************************************

From Malcolm Andrews

His name says it all. Swindell.

LTM

Malcolm Andrews
# 2409
*****************************************************************
From Alexander

A few links with reference to Tod Swindell...

Scoop: Stateside: The People vs. the Executive Office:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0205/S00098.htm

Amelia Earhart Symposium:
http://www.aviationhistory.org/ah_amelia_earhart_symposium_2.html

By any chance is this the same person that directed classics like "The legend of the phantom rider'?
http://www.b-independent.com/reviews/thelegendofthephantomrider.htm

(L.T.M :look! there's more...)
Alexander
*******************************************************
From Barry Robinson

<<There's no business like show business.>>

I would like to be in the audience if the "event" occurs in the lower48'.

Barry Robinson
# 2114
************************************************************
From Alan (on vacation in Australia)

Ric, you have to require this charlatan to show his work for preview first. If he can't do that he is admitting it could not withstand serious examination.

Alan
*************************************************************
From Ric

Look...guys....we're not talking about a learned debate.  What Swindell is proposing is pure theater.  It's professional wrestling.  He screams a challenge from behind the ropes.  Do I dare face him, with his secret holds and his tag team of forensic experts?  Of course I do! (puff, snort, swagger) and I'll bring my own tag team of experts. (audience cheers)

The whole thing is utterly meaningless but it's great fun.  I think it should be sanctioned by the WWE and held in an arena.  Best fundraising idea I've heard yet.    The costume possibilities alone are irresistible.

LTM
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:02:07 -0500
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Swindell WWE challenge

Jim Walrath wrote:

> ...The type of program Swindell is proposing is like the format for a
> Jerry Springer program, which is hardly the venue for a serious  debate.

OK.  But programs like this do attract audiences ("no one ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of the public") and Ric will probably gain some converts from the audience.

You're right that the debate could be staged under different rules. If you can interest a TV producer in the courtroom model, issue a new invitation to the parties and see if they want to play that game.

Ric wrote:

> Look...guys....we're not talking about a learned debate.  What Swindell is
> proposing is pure theater.  It's professional wrestling.  He screams a
> challenge from behind the ropes.  Do I dare face him, with his secret
> holds and his tag team of forensic
> experts?  Of course I do! (puff, snort, swagger) and I'll bring my own
> tag team of experts. (audience cheers)

Hurrah!  Go, Ric, go!

> The whole thing is utterly meaningless but it's great fun.

Agreed.

>  I think it should be sanctioned by the WWE and held in an
> arena.  Best fundraising idea I've heard yet.  The costume
> possibilities alone are irresistible.

Uh, oh.  I suspect kilts and bagpipes are high on the list.

LTM.
Marty #2359
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

I was thinking more tiger-stripe Speedo briefs.
************************************************************************ 
From Dennis McGee

Ric said:  "The whole thing is utterly meaningless but it's great fun. I think it should be sanctioned by the WWE and held in an arena. Best fundraising idea I've heard yet. The costume possibilities alone are irresistible."

Think not only of the costume possibilities, but also the name. Let's see the last "Scot" in the WWE was "Rowdy" Roddy Piper; he wore a tartan kilt but did not play bagpipes. which are Irish anyway so that doesn't count.

No.  We need something more distinctive for our noble cause. How about "The Eviscerator?"  You may have to add a couple of pounds on your svelte physique for this (got a Denny's nearby?) and let your moustache grow into a Fu Manchu, like Hulk Hogan's.  Dye your hair a flaming red and then we'd dress you in Roman gladiator-esque duds holding a metal detector and machete, carrying a compass, maps, a copy of the 8th Edition, and tins of Spam and beans, but replacing the steel helmet with a pith helmet.  Eye glasses are optional.

Well, OK, it's not perfect, but it's a start.

LTM, who's a "Yukon Eric" fan
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

Everybody wants to be an Art Director.
=======================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:55:16 -0500
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Swindell's Smackdown challenge

Re: The SWINDELL SMACK-DOWN CHALLENGE,

There is mounting pressure not only from TIGHAR, but with AES members such as Rollin Reineck and Bonnie Jacobsen, for Tod Swindell to publish his evidence, namely a scientific paper describing his methodology, and conclusions using specific illustrations of the "photo-imagery" identification method. Only  then can the evidence by evaluated. For TIGHAR members not following this issue,  Tod claims that Irene Bolam ,age, 61, whose 1965 photo appears in the Klaas book, is in fact Amelia Earhart.

As far as I know as of this  date, the two forensic anthropologists who Tod has asked for assistance have yet to provide a paper or an opinion regarding Swindell's research.

I am also interested in any scientific published research, prior to Tod, in which this method has been used successfully. I know that photographs are one of the most accurate and reliable sources for evidence, but they do have inherent limitatons, such as in this case, "distortion relative to reality" phenomena; photos made at normal distances of people are "representations" , they represent the three-dimensional world in two dimensions. These difficulties would be explained and covered, I am sure, by the forensic anthropologists.

I agree with you that the claimant here, Tod Swindell, must provide his "proof" prior to any kind of meeting. This is the essense of historical, scientific research.  I suggest a neutral party, such as the Smithosonian in Wash DC, could host a symposium for Tod's evidene and so that we can also provide our compelling evidence, witnesses testimony, medical histories, for example, that refutes the Bolam/Earhart claim. Biographer Mary Lovell wrote that this was one of the "most bizarre episodes" of all in her review of the disappearance theories.

So, Rollin, who monitors this forum, and acts as Tod's spokesman, please forward this to Tod. We are all looking forward to his display of the "holy grail" that may well solve one of the 20th Centuries top ten mysteries. "Res Ipsa Loquitur" is my motto.

LTM,
Ron Bright
************************************************************************
From Ric

Good luck Ron.  These guys don't have a clue about legitimate methodology and no respectable venue is going to have anything to do with them.  You can also bet that no forensic expert who cares about his or her reputation is going to be seen in public in support of these clowns.
=======================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:00:01 -0500
From:         Marjorie
Subject:      Art directors

Ric wrote:

> Everybody wants to be an Art Director.

Ah, I knew we were basically kindred souls -- another fan of "Stan Freberg Modestly Presents the United States of America." Back in the late '60s, some Peace Corps Volunteers and I used to entertain the other patrons in the bar in Saipan's Royal Taga Hotel (whether they liked it or not) singing all the numbers from that under-appreciated cultural achievement.

I'll be you know Tom Lehrer by heart, too!

LTM
--
Marjorie Smith
*************************************************************
  From Ric

Yes, I have a classical education - William Shakespeare, Rudyard Kipling, Robert Service, Ernie Gann, Monty Python, Stan Freberg, Tom Lehrer and many more.
=======================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:04:59 -0500
From:         Reed Riddle
Subject:      Re: Swindell WWE challenge

>I was thinking more tiger-stripe Speedo briefs.

My eyes!  My eyes!  :)

The only reason someone would make a challenge like this is because their evidence is lacking.  In a debate, it is very easy to obfuscate a point, or to make something seem more (or less) important to understanding the point.  Make no mistake, this debate cannot replace the methodical research that is necessary to understanding what happened to Amelia Earhart.

The fact that the AES group considers such a spectacle more worthy of their participation, instead of laying out the evidence for all to study, says much about the quality of said evidence.

Reed
**************************************************************
  From Jon Watson

Hi Ric,

You wrote:  I was thinking more tiger-stripe Speedo briefs.

Only if they are in natural aluminum with the stripes matching the exact color of the red painted trim on the Electra, and, oh yes, the TIGHAR wings on one cheek, and the Earhart Forum logo on the other. Now THAT would get their attention...

ltm
jon
************************************************************************
From Christy

Ya miss the forum for a few days and ya come back to Ric doing a smackdown with someone named Swindell on the Jerry Springer show.

I'm a physicist and, quite frankly, this is NOT how scientific debate is done.  Independent peer review is the cornerstone of scientific progress.  Ideas, whether evolutionary or revolutionary, are presented in reputable juried publications and fellow scientists examine the data, perform collaborating or contrary experiments, pursue alternative theories and eventually through this process, theories are accepted or disproved.

What is Mr. Swindell's pedigree?  If he is a bona fide card carrying member of the scientific community, shame, shame on him. If Mr. Swindell wishes to debate Ric, or anyone for that matter, on a scientific topic, why the secrecy? The hoarding of data??

Col.Reineck:  Here's a challenge for you.  Ask Mr. Swindell to publish his data and subsequent theories.  Let the scientific community do their job.  Given Mr. Swindell's assessment of Ric:

" NO, THEY CANNOT PREVIEW THE MATERIAL FIRST. IF THEY ARE SO CERTAIN THAT GERVAIS-IRENE WAS NEVER KNOWN AS AMELIA EARHART, THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE SOUND EXPLANATIONS TO OFFER FOR THE INFORMATION I WILL BE PLACING BEFORE THEM."

He should have "sound explanations" for any discrepancies discovered with scientific scrutiny.  If it comes down to my expert versus your expert, then perhaps a public debate is warranted.

Ok... Two forum postings in two years, I'm on a roll.

Thanks for the interesting reading.

Christy Creyts
Former member, present lurker
******************************************************
  From Troy

<<I was thinking more tiger-stripe Speedo briefs.">>

That was more detail than I wanted....But SOMEONE is bound to want the pinup of that....
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:02:07 -0500
From:         Monty Fowler
Subject:      Making book on the match

Oh, this is rich ... I've got $10 on Ric's Terminators to take Tod's Titans in an all-or-nothing match. If Ric wins, do I get an autographed warm-up jacket?

LTM, who shakes his head at how silly things can get,
Monty Fowler, #2189
*****************************************************************
  From Dennis McGee

I'm betting this smackdown never happens.

The challenge by AES/Reineck/Swindell was a bluff; and I doubt if they expected TIGHAR to accept it, and certainly did not anticipate the forum's reaction, i.e. distain, ridicule, and mockery.  Inevitably the group will conjure up some excuse to back out.  Pick from the list below:

         A.  TIGHAR doesn't respect our work, therefore . ..
         B.  TIGHAR violated the rules of engagement  . . .
         C.  TIGHAR has  prejudged our research and can't arrive at an "unbiased" conclusion, therefore . . .
         D.  TIGHAR has hurt our feelings.
         E.  Our attorney said we need to protect the identity of our sources.
         F.  Our research is proprietary, therefore . . .
         G.  An unfortunate medical condition  . . .
         H.  Any, all, or a combination of the above.

LTM, Go Terps!
Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:06:20 -0500
From:         Kerry Tiller
Subject:      Re: Art Directors

Ric wrote:
>
> Yes, I have a classical education - William Shakespeare, Rudyard
> Kipling, Robert Service, Ernie Gann, Monty Python, Stan Freeberg, Tom
> Lehrer and many more.>>

Aah, 1966. That was the year that was.

Kerry Tiller
********************************************************************
  From Jon Watson,

For Marjorie - Heck, I still have the album...

ltm
jon
*******************************************************************
  From Ric

"Are we going out on that joke?"
"No, we do reprise of song.  That help...but not much...."
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:38:49 -0500
From:         Art Carty
Subject:      Re: Art Directors

"da dum de dum"

"What's that?"

"French horns"
------------------------

"somebody turn offa tha bubble machine...."
------------------------

Ric: put a stop to this; this could go on for days.........

LTM

Art
********************************************************
  From Ric

You're right.  We gotta kill this thread, but ya gotta admit it's a great way to establish credentials. Maybe prospective forum subscribers should be required to pass a short answer-this-question quiz like, "Did you really eat the horses?"
=======================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:29:18 -0500
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Swindell WWWE challenge

Marty:

<<Uh, oh.  I suspect kilts and bagpipes are high on the list.>>

Ric:

<<I was thinking more tiger-stripe Speedo briefs.>>

No offense intended, but...

I've seen pictures of you.  Go for the kilts and bagpipes.

      - Bill #2229
=======================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:36:11 -0500
From:         Kyle
Subject:      Exiting aircraft

I was reading betty's notebook, and you can tell that FN was exiting the aircraft other then the hatch above the pilots seat. I would gather that EA was staying on the radio even when the water was knee deep with plan to use this hatch.

 That got me thinking about how fast the plane would fill up when upright and how fast when it is upside down.
   
I notice the History channel reacting various events of interest, I wonder if they could make a scaled down version of the electra, and simulate a land/water landing and estimate the difficulty of exiting the plane upright/upside down as well as the rate of water influx.

Kyle
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

My own interpretation of the notebook is that Noonan was trying to exit via the cockpit hatch and that the "knee deep" probably refers to the perceived depth of the water on the reef surrounding the plane.

The History Channel is entertainment, not history.
=======================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:40:59 -0500
From:         Ned Johnston
Subject:      Re: Art Directors

> From Art Carty
<<"Did you really eat the horses?">>

> "I didn't; they did.  Enlisted men...."
**********************************************************
From Ned Johnston

Question # 2: "whadda ya mean you cooked the turkey?"
> ***********************************************************

> From Ric
> You put our national bird IN the oven...

> Art's right.  We gotta stop this.

Y
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:43:03 -0500
From:         Ric
Subject:      Forum garble?

I've had a report that at least one forum subscriber is still getting garble in forum postings. Anybody else having a problem?  (Please don't rely to this if you're NOT having a problem.)

Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:05:25 -0500
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Garble?

RE: Your note about garble in forum postings. Yes, that is so, the message you just sent me also has "garble" in it. Did you mean to gargle? Or did you fail to gargle? Or did you mean Greta Garbo?

What else do you expect with such a slow forum?

***********************************************************************
  From Ric

Hmmmmm.   Obviously needs more work.
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:17:08 -0500
From:         Alfred Hendrickson
Subject:      Thanks Dave Bush

Geez! Even a slow forum is entertaining! I'd like to see the AES try and top THAT one!

LTM,

Alfred Hendrickson, PE
TIGHAR Sponsor Member #2583
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:28:29 -0500
From:         Ric
Subject:      new TIGHAR project

As you'll see if you check the homepage of the TIGHAR website (www.tighar.org), today we're making the first official announcement of our Devastator Survey project.
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:18:00 -0500
From:         Jim Preston
Subject:      Re: Garble?

Ric, I'am sure it works fine with modern computers as both my MAC and my PC running win 98 have no problems. Some people might be using web-tv, or old PC's with 32MB Ram and those probably have garbage in the text.
Jimbo
*****************************************************************
  From Mike Vanholsbeck

I have not had errors in the digest until the last few weeks.  Let me know if you want the exact day it started.  BTW, I use Win2K with Outlook 2K.

Mike
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:34:30 -0500
From:         Jim Preston
Subject:      Re: new TIGHAR project

Since you are going or have been in the Marshalls recently is there any interest in the German Cruiser Prinz Eugen ? While flying thru there during my many trips to SEA I used to see it anchored in the Lagoon at Kwaj. THen one time in the late 70's, we found it upside down and on the shore. The folks there said a Typhoon came thru and flipped it. I have some slides of it in storage.
Jim Preston
*********************************************************************
  From Ric

Nein,   Prinz Eugen ist nicht ein flugzeug.
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:39:08 -0500
From:         Jim Preston
Subject:      Re: Garble?

I would bet some of the problem is with Internet Explorer and Outlet Express. The M/S Programs are known to be buggy and very easy to corrupt. I use Netscape and Opera and neither have problems with either format, Mac or PC. Opera is very fast.
Jim Preston
************************************************************************
From Ric

I've gotten almost no response to my query about whether subscribers are having problems so I have to conclude that  the whatever conflict is causing the garble is not common or widespread.
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:26:27 -0500
From:         Angus Murray
Subject:      Re: Prinz Eugen

There's an excellent website on diving in the pacific which has many good photos of the Prinz Eugen for those that are interested.
   
http://www.liddiard.demon.co.uk/photoix/prinzeugen/index.htm

and

http://www.liddiard.demon.co.uk/index.htm

Regards Angus
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:53:52 -0500
From:         Neil Barnett
Subject:      Re: Garble

> From Jim Preston
> I would bet some of the problem is with Internet
> Explorer and Outlet Express. The M/S Programs are
> known to be buggy and very easy to corrupt. I use
> Netscape and Opera and neither have problems with
> either format, Mac or PC. Opera is very fast.

The hackers and virus writers target IE and OE because those are the programs everyone uses. When enough users switch over to an alternative, guess who'll switch over too.

>  From Ric
> I've gotten almost no response to my query about whether subscribers
> are having problems so I have to conclude that  the whatever conflict
> is causing the garble is not common or widespread.

I had some junk for a week or two, but that ended a couple of weeks ago. There's been nothing since early March.

Neil in Auckland, N.Z.
**********************************************************
Dear Ric,

I subscribe to the digest (one daily e-mail containing all the day's Forum postings) and get it on a Dell PC.  For awhile now, many of the postings have had lots of junk characters in them, making them very difficult to read.  For example, the digest 16 Mar 2004 to 17 Mar 2004 (#2004-45) had 3 postings:

1. Swindell WWWE challenge
2. Exiting aircraft
3. Art Directors

In that digest, the "Exiting Aircraft" post - and your reply - were filled with stray characters (e.g., ), while the other postings were free of them.  When this occurs in short posts, it's not hard to ignore them, but when they occur in longer posts I just skip to another post.

Regarding the announcement on the Tighar Website about the Jaluit Lagoon survey (http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Devastator/devdescrip.htm), the Website text mentions the crews of two ditched Devastators were taken prisoner. Was there any word on if any survived the war?

BTW, kudos to someone (?)on the cool artwork of the Pacific
Ocean/Marshall Islands/Jaluit Atoll tri-map.

LTM, who likes all things cool,

Steve G.
************************************************************************
From Ric

All six crew members survived the war.

The kudos on the cool artwork are due, as usual, to TIGHAR's webmistress extraordinaire (not to mention TIGHAR Tracks editor and art director and TIGHAR President) Pat Thrasher.
=======================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:27:04 -0500
From:         Ted Whitmore
Subject:      Re: Prinz Eugen

RE: Angus Murray's ref. photos of the Prinzeugen.

Der Prinzeugen, an interesting touch of history re-lived.

Our U. S. S. Pettit (DE-253) was in foating drydock in S. Boston Navy Yard, about 1 Feb. 1946, and awoke to the sight of the Prizeugen tied to the other side of the same pier.  It had come in from Europe during the night or early morning.

What a magnificent ship!  Trim and sleek, very majestic. With the German crewmen in their uniforms to handle the ship.

We'd seen the best in Pearl Harbor previously but here were some new and different ideas:  torpedo tubes mounted on trolleys that could be moved along the weather deck or even around the stern to the other side of the ship;  search and signal lights mounted aft giving them full sweep of the horizon minus the trim line of the main superstructure; appeared bristling with fightability, etc.

The Boston area radio stations really put on a string of anti-German music left over from the war for several days - particularly they liked "Right in der Feuhrer' Face."

Many TIGHARS may remember the picture of the gigantic water spout from the big a-bomb test at Bikini with one large navy type ship standing vertically bow up, on the side of the water column - I've often wondered if that was the Prinzeugen about a half mile up.

      Ted Whitmore, 2269
=======================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:44:46 -0500
From:         Suzie
Subject:      Re: Garble

I'm getting a lot of 20's and other numbers at the apparent end of line position. I also get the forum in italics and bolded on occasion. It's hard to read.

   Susie
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

There are some problems we can fix from here and others we cannot.  The big bugaboo seems to be HTML code imbedded in email text.  If it's there, after it goes through the Listserv  software and gets distributed to the forum, it appears as stray characters, italics, bold face, etc.  When I look at a submitted posting there is no way for me to tell whether there is HTML imbedded there or not.  If you haven't checked, chances are you don't know yourself whether your own emails are going out with imbedded HTML.  Most email programs give you the option of sending HTML or plain text.  The latest version of AOL for Mac does not - which caused across-the-board problems for the forum when we upgraded last month and which, in turn, prompted us to abandon the AOL system. Hence or new @mac.com  email addresses.

Bottom line:  If stray characters are showing up in everything I write we can probably do something about it.  If stray characters occur only in postings from some of the subscribers then the fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars but in the subscriber's email program.
=======================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:55:15 -0500
From:         Pete
Subject:      Re: Prinz Eugen

Actually, reports included in the Truman Library say the ship lifted in the water column by the Baker blast was the 26,000 ton battleship Arkansas.

   Pete
   2419
=======================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:37:02 -0500
From:         Ric
Subject:      Meta-forum and Pat's Hypothesis

The main business of the forum at present seems to be diagnosing and, I hope, correcting the garble problems we've been experiencing over the past weeks. Hey, a little introspection is good for the soul. The following are postings commenting on the garble (or lack thereof) and Pat's Hypothesis about what is going on.

LTM,
Ric
************************************************************************ 
From Alan

Ric, I'm not getting any problems at all and I'm on a PC using AOL. I am in Sydney, Australia for a short visit of about three weeks at this time. Just got back from a few days in Melbourne and checking my email.

No garble and no problems.

Alan
************************************************************************ 
From Roger Kelley

All forum postings come through my desktop and laptop with no errors or additional numbers or characters.
   
The problem appears not to be at TIGHAR Central.

Roger
************************************************************************ 
From Jim W.

First of all, I'm going to enclose in parenthesis in this post any references to imbedded characters that I mention to differentiate them from garble being sent.

This message is being sent using a Mac with OS 10.3.1 and AOL optimized for that OS. I have been receiving the text garbling where there are a lot of (=3DAO or =3D20) characters. Until the past couple of days I was receiving italics in about half of each digest version of the forum. Even the posting I did a few days ago came back to me with the characters imbedded. Also your latest post from Sat., March 20, with the bugaboo explanation began with (=3D46rom Ric), had imbedded characters and some single line spacing and double spacing where it wouldn't be intended. The double spacing came after (=3D20=3D) characters.

   Hope this helps.

   Jim Walrath
************************************************************************ 
From Lawrence Glazier

here is the text of your latest message on the forum, as received here; as you can see, it IS filled with extraneous characters, probably line feed code.

" =3D46rom Ric

There are some problems we can fix from here and others we cannot.  The  
 
=3D20=3D

big bugaboo seems to be HTML code imbedded in email text.  If it's =3D20
there, after it goes through the Listserv  software and gets =3D20
distributed to the forum, it appears as stray characters, italics, bold  
 
=3D20=3D

face, etc.  When I look at a submitted posting there is no way for me  
 
=3D20=3D

to tell whether there is HTML imbedded there or not.  If you haven't  
=3D20=

checked, chances are you don't know yourself whether your own emails  
=3D20=

are going out with imbedded HTML.  Most email programs give you the  
=3D20
option of sending HTML or plain text.  The latest version of AOL for  
=3D20=

Mac does not - which caused across-the-board problems for the forum  
=3D20
when we upgraded last month and which, in turn, prompted us to abandon  
 
=3D20=3D

the AOL system. Hence or new @mac.com  email addresses.

Bottom line:  If stray characters are showing up in everything I write  
 
=3D20=3D

we can probably do something about it.  If stray characters occur only  
 
=3D20=3D

in postings from some of the subscribers then the fault, dear Brutus,  
 
=3D20=3D

lies not in the stars but in the subscriber's email program.=3D"

LTM, who always avoided extraneous characters.
Lawrence Glazer

p.s. I recently saw a forum posting from a "James Walrath". If he reads this, I wonder if he is the same person with whom I shared a study carrel 35 years ago?

Lawrence Glazer
************************************************************************ 
From Christian D:

I'm no expert on this, but Ric, don't you have a way to look at the "Message Source" of an email? (Incoming as well as your outgoing posts)

This post from Susie did display perfect in my Outlook Express. I went to:

"File/Properties/Details/MessageSource".   My understanding is that this is the actual data that is shuffled over the Internet. Lots of information in there, including this line:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; delsp=3Dyes; =format=3Dflowed

Can't remember ever seeing the "delsp, flowed" before...  Interestingly that plain text further down in the "message source" is NOT quite plain, but has a "20" at the end of each line; and the last paragraph is double spaced!!! Still it all does display fine in my OE-6... Is Susie using an older version of her email client? May be it doesn't know how to deal with Ric's (possibly newer) style of "Content-Type"???

So, may be Ric's "repackaging" for posting on the Forum, is not such perfectly plain "text" after all? And I'm lucky my own email client knows how to restore it BACK to plain text?

Just checked a post from another "list" I get; it uses:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6021

And in their "message source", the message body is displayed in plain text without Ric's "20's" etc.

Checking an older of Ric's posts, it used:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

and here too, in the "message source", the text was plain text without any "numbers"... May be "US-ascii", (forced on Ric's PC) is the way to go, Ric?

Seems to me it could be Ric's present "repackaging" problem. Hopefully there is someone on the Forum that knows more of the details on this than myself?

Regards.

Christian D
************************************************************************ 
From Pat Thrasher

I have done some research and poked about, and I *think* this is what's going on but I am more than willing to be corrected if someone else *really* knows what's going on.

We have our mail software set for Plain Text, and as Christian notes the entire content line reads:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; delsp=3Dyes; =format=3Dflowed

"delsp" is a newer identifier which attempts to overcome problems associated with quoting and line breaks across different platforms. In general, the command assumes that a line which ends in a space should be flowed, as it is obviously not the end of a paragraph.

Older mail systems may not be set up to read this correctly. AOL for Macintosh is definitely not set up to read this correctly. If the typist puts extra spaces after periods which end paragraphs, the interpretation will be flawed.

So update your mail program (there may well be a free patch or something), and ... um.... gee, AOL ... ... Well, they're notorious for NOT following internationally recognized protocols for mail or anything else, but Jim W., we really like the mail program which comes with Panther. Love Safari, too.

If you want to read all about it, go to http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3676.html and have fun <G>.

LTM and all the little electrons,
Pat Thrasher
Webmeister
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:55:00 -0500
From:         Jim Preston
Subject:      meta-forum

Does it help if you send and receive in both "text and html" as I do and I have no problem with garble. What you say about AOL is true as my daughter uses AOL 7.0 and it sometimes comes with the=3D20=3D on my MAC at home.

Jim Preston
************************************************************************ 
From Herman De Wulf

Ric,

Just for your record. I have absolutely no problem over here in Belgium. My server is Skynet and I use Microsoft XP.

LTM
Herman
*********************************************************************
From Alexander

Incase you are interested here is what it says on my header info....


Mime-Version:
1.0 (Apple Message framework v606)

Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable

Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; delsp=3Dyes; format=3Dflowed

X-Mailer:
Apple Mail (2.606)

Approved-By:
Ric Gillespie <tighar1@MAC.COM>

Message-ID:
<87952ED6-7C27-11D8-B0D7-003065C7C250@mac.com>

Date:
Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:37:02 -0500

I hope it helps.
*****************************************************************
From Christian D

I went thru "Help" and "Search" in my Outlook Express and IO-6, but couldn't find any info on how "delsp" and "flowed" work... I'll do a google on it when I have a chance.

Pat: how do you access those parameters? Can't find them anywhere here. Interesting that the above softwares understand these settings but refuse to tell me anything about them!

Concerning "Plain Text", it is still a fact that, according to what I see in the message source, Tighar's plain text is no longer plain text, when "improved" with the "delsp, flowed"... The source shows TIGHAR sends plenty of additions like the =3D20's, and even *replaces* the capital "F" with a "=3D46", in the "=46rom Ric"... Also when my plain text said "delsp=3Dyes", Tighar's source sent back to me becomes: "delsp=3D3Dyes"... May be we should keep the pure, unimproved ascii-type of plain text for maximum backwards compatibility?

Seems to me the "flowed plain text" is more like a concise form of html?

Another thing quite annoying to me is that although my email client >>> IS<<< set for quoting with the convenient ">" indent, they are suppressed by some of the emails that I receive, including this one here as seen below. Makes it quite difficult to insert comments in a msg one is replying to...Just like so:

Subject: Meta-forum and Pat's Hypothesis


  =46rom Ric

The main business of the forum at present seems to be diagnosing and, I
hope, correcting the garble problems we've been experiencing over the
past weeks. Hey, a little introspection is good for the soul. The
following are postings commenting on the garble (or lack thereof) and

Like I just did here... The above was a quote, even though one can't tell. Anybody knows how to get around this?

I haven't looked at the digests.

Just went back to the source for Ric/Pat's long message, and the more I look the more puzzling it is: *ALL* the parts that you guys spliced together to make that long msg, have the 20's, EXCEPT the part that is my original message!!!  I wonder how that section appeared for the aol/mac people??????

BUT I did get the altered "equal46rom Christian D" treatment! Unless this is because my "Plain/text" is not set to ascii, but to "iso 8859-1" -same as Pat's?

I give up...

Christian D

PS: Amen on AOL... I have thousands of msgs etc in my ol aol, that I'll never be able to export to anything else...
************************************************************************ 
From Susie

Dear forum:

I am using AOL 8 on a P4 with WindowsXP formatted to FAT32. Everything is garbled from the forum, coming in with line feeds and occasionally in italics or a different font. My system uses Arial 10 point.

This problem just got bad a week or so ago. Prior to that it was just the occasional message from the forum. I am on a second forum that does not have a problem. It is not AOL based either.

   Susie
*********************************************************************
From Ric

Okay. We're trying something new. I'm sending out this posting using a different encoding protocol called "Western (ISO Latin 1)".

Let me know how it comes through.
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:04:17 -0500
From:         Ric
Subject:      meta-forum

Part of the problem may be that if I tack a comment onto the end of a posting with hidden (from me) garble, then my comments also become garbled.

This is posting comes directly from me and is being sent under the Western (ISO Latin 1) encoding protocol.

Anybody getting garble?
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:12:43 -0500
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: meta-forum

Ain't no garble here, but then, there never was. Or maybe I didn't notice the difference.

TK
************************************************************************ 
From Bob Lee

Looks good to me. However, I've never experienced the problems. I think using this encoding protocol might bring back the very ragged, uneaven line spacing occasionally as that's what "delsp" (as opposed to "flowed") is suppose to address when using porportional type or quoted replies.

NetBSD OS, Sylpheed Mail Client

Bob
****************************************************************
From Dale Intolubbe, Rathdrum, ID

Loud and clear!
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:18:10 -0500
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: meta-forum

Just hooked up the new Gateway here at work running Windows XP with a Pentium 4 and having no problems what so ever.

LTM, who is 5X5

Dennis O. McGee #0149EC
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

BUT...when I tried to send your posting using the Western (ISO Latin 1) encoding protocol I got a dialogue box saying that some characters in your message could not be converted into Western (ISO Latin 1).  That was not the case with Tom King's, Bob Lee's, and Dale Intolubbe's postings that I just sent out.

This message is going out under the old default protocol.  Any garble?
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:00:54 -0500
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      old encoding protocol

<<This message is going out under the old default protocol.  Any
garble?>>

Came through just fine.

*************************************************************
  From Dale Intolubbe, Rathdrum, ID

Still L&C, 5x5, whatever.

MAC's  forever!!
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:18:37 -0500
From:         Christian D.
Subject:      Re: meta-forum

This could be much better:

1-I'm getting my beloved "quoting >" back
2-Checking the "source" there is no more "numbers"
3-The "dlsp" bit is gone, with the "flowed" still there, as follows:

Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII; format=3Dflowed
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606)

Is "Western ISO Latin 1" the same as "US-ASCII"?????

How about Susie n the others who had trouble before?

My 2 cts, as seen thru OE/IE-6

Christian D
***********************************************************************
From Ric

<<Is "Western ISO Latin 1" the same as "US-ASCII"?????>>

Dunno.  I wonder if "Western ISO Latin 1" is the Vatican-approved version of  "US-ASCII".  Marty?

************************************************************************
From Doc Holloway

Ric,

You have always come through 5x5 with no garble. I use Outlook Express and Windows XP on a Dell.

LTM, (Who sometimes gets garbled at Happy Hour on Friday)

Doc Holloway=
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:23:49 -0500
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: meta-forum

> ...
> Content-Transfer-Encoding:
> quoted-printable

This is the source of the problem.

The "quoted printable" (QP) method of encoding uses equal signs ("=") to introduce two hexadecimal (base 16) characters that correspond to one character in a character set.

Someone sends a message using QP.  Ric and Pat don't see the QP codes because they're using smart software.  The codes get passed through to users who have less smart software.  Since the software doesn't know what to do with the codes, it just displays them.

"=20" is the hexadecimal code for a space.  In the QP system, it is a special kind of replaceable space (or irreplaceable--I misremember).  Other codes are for "smart quotation marks," similar typesetting kinds of characters, or foreign characters.

"=46" is just the hex code for "F".  Why is it used?  Because the QP system is trying to keep the word "From" at the beginning of a line from looking like the "from:" field.  By marking it with the numeric value for "F", it prevents the line from being mistreated.

"=3D" is the hex code for "=".  Because the equal sign is being used as an "escape character" (not to be confused with ESC, =1B), to actually make an equal sign visible, the hex code has to be given.  If you just put in the equal sign alone, the receiving software would try to make sense out of =YE, which is an invalid code (hex runs from 0 to F).

LTM.

Marty #2359

************************************************************************
and also From Marty

>  From Ric

> This message is going out under the old default protocol.  Any garble?

Not for me.

Here's why.  In my headers, I get this line:

"X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx0.canisius.edu id i2NIIJV7017649"

My host e-mail system is doing the conversion for me, even before it reaches my software.

Marty #2359
************************************************************************
From Ric

Okay.  Thank you.  Problem diagnosed. Knowing what to look for, I should now be able to spot and correct problems on this end.  I hope.
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:44:01 -0500
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: meta-forum

>>Is "Western ISO Latin 1" the same as "US-ASCII"?????
>
> Dunno.  I wonder if "Western ISO Latin 1" is the Vatican-approved
> version of  "US-ASCII".

No.  The Holy Father only knows about faith and morals, not character sets.  :o(

ISO Latin I is another name for ISO 8859-1.

It is identical to the ASCII range 32..126 (or 0x20..07E if you prefer).  Characters 0..31 are undefined.

ASCII is a 7-bit character set (0..127 or 0x00..0x7F).  ISO 8859-1 has defined characters for the 8-bit range (128..255 or 0x80..0xFF). There are extensions for ASCII in that range, too, but they don't correspond to the characters in ISO 8859-1.

The 234th character in ISO 8859-1 is =E9. In ASCII/DOS, that is the 131st character.

For more--much more!--information, see
<http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars.html>

                                         Marty #2359
=======================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:20:19 -0500
From:         Christian D.
Subject:      Re: meta-forum

I now get Ric differently: the "quoted-printable" has brought back the 20's etc...

Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606)

I did a bit of digging and the us-ascii has only the 128 characters, while the iso-8859 has twice as many, to allow for all those European accents n etc... The ascii may not be the most pretty, but is the most universal.

We need to hear from the people who DID have trouble, how they got Ric's previous test.

And interestingly the quoting ">"s are gone again.

For Marty: before we slip out of "off topic", Marty would you know why my Outlook Express, when I use "Reply" sometimes does NOT add the quoting right angle bracket to certain quoted msgs? This has bugged me for years, and it sure makes it difficult to make a clean intersperced (sp) reply.

Hoping you'll know that one, too.    :-)      Just spent an hour googling, but didn't really found that one out.

Thanks

Christian D
************************************************************************
From Warren Lambing

Ric

No garble on my end and so far I not seen garble on any postings. However, my two cents.  Some software programs, in particular web base email, either because of spam filters blocking html, or just a simple written web base email program, will not encode html no matter what you do, so when you get the email you see the entire html code with all the tags. Even if you know html, it looks like garble.  I am running a PC with Outlook Express with XP.
Regards,
Warren Lambing
************************************************************************
From Ric

I've received, but there's no need to post, many responses from forum subscribers who are not having any problem with garble, so I think that, at this point, we're somewhere out on the edge of the bell curve. There may always be conflicts with some systems but it looks like we have a forum that comes through in clear, uncluttered text to the vast majority of subscribers. Anybody want to talk about the disappearance of Amelia Earhart?
=======================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:23:58 -0500
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Looking for hoaxes

Ric wrote :

"Anybody want to talk about the disappearance of Amelia Earhart?".

Earhart's messages were also a bit garbled, weren't they ?

LTM
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

True enough.

Here's a question.  As we look at the reported post-loss radio signals what patterns should we look for that might indicate hoaxes?

For the purposes of the study we have defined two types of hoaxes:

Active Hoax
In an active hoax, someone makes a bogus transmission that is heard and reported by one or more stations. In this type of hoax, the reporting party is usually innocent of any wrongdoing and the identity of the perpetrator is unknown.

Passive Hoax
In a passive hoax, no transmission is made. Someone lies about what they heard. In such cases the reporter is the perpetrator.

It seems to me that, in the case of an Active Hoax, a number of people should report hearing the same thing at the same time and the strength and clarity of the reported receptions should generally decrease with distance from the hoaxer's location.

A Passive Hoax, on the other hand, will be an isolated incident.

Comments?

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:03:29 -0500
From:         Marty Moleski
Subject:      Re: meta-forum & 7500

> For Marty: before we slip out of "off topic", Marty would you know why
> my Outlook Express, when I use "Reply" sometimes does NOT add the
> quoting right angle bracket to certain quoted msgs?

Any suggestions I would make about "why" it happens would all be speculative and uncharitable.

But there is a solution: Quotefix.  It's free and people I respect recommend it highly:
<http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/>

> Anybody want to talk about the disappearance of
> Amelia Earhart?

Do we have a page already on the site that explains why she thought she could DF on 7500 and why we think it was the wrong frequency for her to use?

Marty #2359
************************************************************************
From Ric

We don't have a page on that.  Personally, I have no idea why she thought she could DF on 7500 but there's no mystery about why it was an inappropriate frequency.  It's way too high.
=======================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:31:22 -0500
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: looking for hoaxes

Would a genuine, authentic shortwave transmission by a real entity, ship or station, that comes in garbled to the receiver be considered as a "false positive", but not fall into any hoax category?

I would guess many of the reported msgs, incomplete, or fragmantary, (the Archilles reception), fall into some such category.

Ron Bright
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

Yes.  A misunderstanding of a legitimate message is a "false positive" but it is not a hoax. Here's an excerpt from the current draft of the Post-Loss Radio Study:

*******
By comparing the distribution of the post-loss radio events by time with the times of known transmissions to the aircraft it is possible to test the hypothesis that most, or at least some, of the post-loss radio events were misunderstood messages to or about Earhart sent by the searchers and overheard by others. If such were the case we would expect to see a correlation between the number of reported events and the number of radio-equipped vessels participating in the search, but we see no such pattern. In fact, the opposite is true. Almost all of the events occur during the first four days when Itasca was the only ship in the area. The danger that messages sent to the lost plane might be mistaken for messages from the lost plane was recognized at the time and procedures were set specifically to prevent the problem from arising.

As Earhart approached and then became overdue at Howland, Itasca made repeated attempts to contact the plane on various frequencies. Beginning in the afternoon and especially that night of July 2nd/3rd, numerous stations, official and amateur, in Hawaii and on the U.S. mainland, heard signals suspected to be from the lost plane. These receptions were reported back to the Itasca but the ship's captain was skeptical. Early on the second evening of the search (the evening of July 3rd), Commander Thompson radioed to Coast Guard headquarters in Washington that, "We are calling Earhart frequently and consistently on 3105 kilocycles and undoubtedly amateur and other stations mistake us for Earhart plane." That same evening Coast Guard San Francisco Division requested that Itasca not send any signals on either 3105 or 6210 for the next two nights. Itasca maintained radio silence on those frequencies as requested on the night of the 3rd /4th and 4th /5th except, by special permission, for a one hour period between 8 p.m. and 9 p.m. local time on the night of the 4th. The mysterious receptions, however, continued unabated.
**********

I can't find a single instance where the time or content of a reported post-loss radio event corresponds with a transmission to or about Earhart by any station.  The incident involving HMS Achilles is complex but appears to be a case in which the British cruiser heard Itasca calling Earhart and also heard Earhart replying but Itasca did not hear the reply.

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:17:13 -0500
From:         Kerry Tiller
Subject:      Re: looking for hoaxes

As well as the "false-active" category of non-hoaxes; we have to consider the "false-passive". We all understand how faulty memories can be. We have discussed the unreliability of eye witness accounts before. Reports of post loss transmissions must be looked at in the same way. Case in point (which I think I mentioned on this forum two or three years ago when we discussed this before) is the sailor at the trial of Tokyo Rose in San Francisco after the war who claimed under oath to have heard a female propaganda announcer at Radio Japan begin her broadcast with: "This is Tokyo Rose....". In fact, the name was an invention of the Allies. No female announcer at NHK ever used it. The Japanese/American girl on trial, Iva Taguri, (who eventually went to prison for treason) used the name "Ann, Orphan of the Pacific" on her "Zero Hour" broadcasts. My point being that any post loss transmission being reported after the fact from memory must be treated like anecdotal information. I imagine there were a lot of professional radio operators, Hams and short wave listener hobbyists listening for AE. I would be skeptical of a report by such a person made even days after they heard it. The most credible reports (and the ones deserving the most attention) would be those with a written log made at the time of reception. The most compelling aspects of Betty's claim are the fact that she wasn't listening for AE when she heard or heroine, and, the notebook. Incomplete and sketchy though it is, it remains a written log of what Betty actually heard vice an account written from memory at a later date.

As for hoaxes themselves, I think it is our modern day cynicism that draws our focus onto them for an explanation of the post-loss transmissions. The term itself implies malice, and I suspect that after careful examination we won't find a lot of cause to cry "HOAX!" We will find the genuine article (we hope), plus a lot of misinterpretations of what people actually heard, or what they thought they heard.

LTM (who doesn't hear very well these days)
Kerry Tiller
************************************************************************

  From Ric

Yes, the same presumption of uncertain credibility applies to anecdotal recollections in this context as in others.  Fortunately, very few of the reported receptions fall into this category.  The vast majority were written down immediately in a log and even most of the amateur reports appeared in the press within 24 hours.

There does appear to have been at least one outright passive hoax, but it's very transparent and was investigated and identified as such at the time.
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:04:45 -0500
From:         Dave in Fremont
Subject:      Re: looking for hoaxes

Gee, Ric... Let's not let the ("final", or is that "eventual"?) publication of the Post-loss Message Analysis get in the way of chasing spurious characters in forum postings, for Chrissakes.... How about establishing some priorities on the Earhart search rather than going for the shiny brass ring of the "Jaluit Devastators"? Supposedly, the Post-loss Message Analysis was taking priority over everything else a few months ago... Until the WOF issue raised its ugly head. When did the priorities change?

I'm not deliberately beating up on you, I only want to know when we reach the "stand and deliver" point. The TBDs are there and will remain there; let's get back to Earhart if we can, please. Besides, the TBDs are an important venture, to be sure, but at the expense of our innate curiosity concerning AE? I think not...

LTM (who is a concerned vested member),
   Dave
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

Fair question.  What takes priority over everything else is bringing in enough money to keep this boat afloat.  The Post-Loss Radio Study is important but it don't pay the rent.  The grant for the TBD survey was extremely important for the organization and that project represents a great opportunity for TIGHAR.

That's not to say that we're backing off at all in our Earhart investigation.  Just because the forum has been absorbed in meta-matters lately does not mean that Earhart research has slowed at all.  Plans and preparation have been moving ahead for two expeditions later this year (July and August) to visit Electra crash sites in Idaho and Alaska hoping to find surviving examples of dados to compare to the ones we found on Niku.

The Reineck book came out and needed dealing with.  It took time and resources away from productive work but we felt that the Irene Bolam nonsense needed to be exposed for what it is.  Despite their bluster, Swindell, Reineck, and company seem to have crawled back under their rock. Let's hope they stay there this time.

I've been working on the Post-Loss Radio Study as time permits.  My recent questions to the forum about hoaxes are intended to help me write the chapter dealing with that subject. The major first section of the study is written and has been reviewed and critiqued by EPAC.  The recommended changes have been made and it's now ready to put up on the TIGHAR website for public review as soon as we tweek some of the many graphs and charts to make them more understandable.  I won't try to predict exactly when that tweeking will be finished but we're talking weeks, not months.

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:28:43 -0500
From:         Mike Haddock
Subject:      Re: looking for hoaxes

As usual, I think you and Pat do a terrific job! I think your priorities are always on target and I still very much appreciate the awesome job you and Pat do month in and month out. Keep up the good work my friend.

LTM,

Mike Haddock, #2438
************************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks Mike.
=======================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:25:27 -0500
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Amelia receptions

I would expect there might be a spike in AE "receptions" in the US on 8-9 July 37 when the famous March of Time broadcast was made. I would guesss that many people thought this was the real deal, ala War of the Worlds, that the msg traffic between AE and the ITASCA was genuine. Has the post-loss matrix shown any such increase? This would illustrate the non -hoax msg but simply the mistaken report of hearing AE. As I recall I sent you the transcript of the MOT broadcast but none of the context seemed to appear in any 8-9 July "receptions".

LTM,
Ron Bright
************************************************************************
From Ric

There was no spike on July 8-9.   The number of reported receptions on the night of the March of Time broadcast was the same as on the previous night (6) and similar to the following night (4).

Of the six reported receptions on the night of July 8-9 we can dismiss three of them as being misunderstood interceptions of the March of Time broadcast because they were weak signals on 3015 logged by the operator on Howland Island.  The March of Time broadcast was not on that frequency.

The three other reports cannot be eliminated as having been misunderstandings of the broadcast, but it does not seem very likely.

The New York Herald Tribune reported that an unidentified ham on Oakland, California heard "We are okay on coral reef." at 04:10 PST. That, however, does not correspond with the time or content of the MOT broadcast.

The same paper also reported that a ham by the name of Ray Havens heard "ALLS WELL  Position 5 degrees S. Lat.173 W. Long." sometime on the night of the 8th.  The content does not match the MOT broadcast.

A southern California resident named Frank Frietas reported hearing a voice he recognized as Earhart's sometime between midnight on the 8th and dawn on the 9th saying that the plane was on a reef 200 miles directly south of Howland, that both were okay and the plane had one wing broken.  No frequency or exact time was mentioned.  Again, neither the time nor the content matches the MOT broadcast.

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:30:06 -0500
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Amelia receptions

An excellent teaser on the post-loss msgs and correlations with time, dates, frequencies,content, etc., Can't wait until you get back from Jaluit. When on Jaluit you might ask around if anyone knew Bilimon Amran, then a young Japanese medic in July 1937!

Ron B.
************************************************************************
  From Ric

We probably won't be able to avoid the Amelia stories but anyone who actually remembered Bilimon Amran from 1937 would have to have been - what? - at least 10 years old in 1937.   That would make them 77 today.    That sort of longevity is not common in Micronesia.  And suppose we found somebody who said they remembered that there was a guy by that name who worked for the Japanese.  That and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee in Washington.
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:18:37 -0500
From:         Ron Bright
Subject:      Re: Amelia receptions/Jaluit

If I were there I couldn't resist looking for some oldtimers, legends, myths, etc of what was happening in the late 30s with regard to radio stations, fleet exercises,ships,and Japanese activity. Was there a Jap hospital? Were the 13 high powered radio transmitters there as Goerner claims?

In 1945, the Navy dispatched Lt Harris Powers to Jaluit to interrogate Japanese prisoners re AE, said Fred G. Made a report to ONI, but it has never surfaced. If natives were about 20 years old in 1945, they would be now only about 78-80 now. Unlikely, but surely there will be some out there that are quite familiar with the story.

If you see an older,tall caucasian lady, say about 106,with a scarf around her neck sitting on an empty gas can, check it out.

LTM,
Ron Bright
************************************************************************
From Ric

You're referring to "Meelia".  Yes, she's a well-known personality on Jaluit.  Just some crazy old white woman. In the course of our research into Jaluit's wartime history we should be able to confirm or deny some of the Earhart-related allegations.
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:05:23 -0500
From:         Lee Kruczcowski
Subject:      Dado expeditions

how about some more info on the expeditions to alaska and idaho

lee 1821ce
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

Idaho

In the early morning hours of December 18, 1936 Northwest Airlines Lockheed 10A NC14935, carrying mail from Missoula, Montana to Spokane, Washington crashed during a winter storm in heavily wooded mountainous terrain in northern Idaho.  There were no passengers.  The pilot and copilot were killed on impact.  The wreck was located on December 26 and the bodies were recovered along with the seven of the sixteen mailbags that did not burn in the post-crash fire.

NC14935 was c/n 1024, the 24th Electra built. It was delivered to Northwest on May 25, 1935.  Because it had only one owner and was lost only about a year and half after it entered service it probably still had the original interior furnishings installed, including dados.  Contemporary reports suggest that the post-crash fire was limited and there seems to be a good chance that portions of the cabin (with dados) were not burned.  As far as we know at this time, no one has intentionally visited the wreck since 1936 so we have hopes of a relatively undisturbed wreck.  A small TIGHAR team will attempt to locate and evaluate the site in July.  If the site is found to be suitable, we'll make it the focus of our 2004 Aviation Archaeology Field School in October.  The next issue of TIGHAR Tracks will have registration information with the understanding that the October school is conditional upon the results of the July recon.

Alaska

On the evening of January 5, 1945, Lockheed 10B NC14915 owned by the Morrison-Knudsen company (a construction firm) made a forced landing due to an engine failure in heavily wooded mountainous terrain approximately 30 miles east of Ketchikan, Alaska in what is now the Tongas National Forest.  There were five passengers plus the pilot aboard.  The descent into trees resulted in extensive damage to the aircraft and serious injuries to three of the passengers.  There was no fire.  The pilot, a well-known Alaskan bush pilot by the name of Harold Gillam, tried to walk out to get help but died of exposure in the attempt.  One of the passengers died of her injuries after two days without medical attention.  An extensive land, sea, and air search of the region by civilian and Coast Guard resources gave up after three weeks of hazardous but fruitless operations.  On February 3rd two of the four survivors hailed a Coast Guard patrol boat from the shore and led rescuers to the other two. The four had survived for an incredible 29 days in the Alaskan winter.

NC14915 was Lockheed c/n 1021, the 21st Electra built.  It was delivered to Northwest Airlines as a Model 10A on March 29, 1935 and was, in fact, part of the same batch of Northwest Electra's as the wreck in Idaho.  Northwest later sold the airplane to Boston & Maine Airlines who, in turn, sold it to National Airlines in Florida.  It was subsequently sold to Star Airlines who converted it to 10B configuration (replaced the P&W R985 engines with Wright R975s of the same 450 hp) and finally to Morrison-Knudsen.  With ten years in service, four changes of ownership, and one major modification, the chances that the aircraft still had its original interior at the time of loss are poorer than with the Idaho wreck.  However, undisturbed Electra wrecks that were not consumed by post-crash fires are extremely rare so a small TIGHAR team will inspect the site in August.

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:14:32 -0500
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Dado expeditions

It might be worth noting that both Electra crash sites are located on National Forests, and we're cooperating closely with the U.S. Forest Service in planning our work.

************************************************************************ 
From Ric

Yes indeed.
=======================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:08:15 -0500
From:         Lee Kruczcowski
Subject:      2004 Field School

who gets to go on the Idaho adventure in July ? I kinda liked it there when we did the Lady of the Lake expedition

lee 1821ce
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

If it turns out to be an adventure then they did it wrong.  The July trip will be done by a small hand-picked team from the Earhart Project Advisory Council.  If the site proves to be suitable we'll use it for the Aviation Archaeology Field School in October, just as we used the Loon Lake "Lady of the Lake" B-23 site in 2000.  Any TIGHAR member who can handle the physical demands of the school (as yet undetermined in this case) and pays the tuition (as yet undetermined in this case) will be welcome to attend.
************************************************************************ 
From Ted Campbell

Ric,
Would you please give us some idea i.e. the criteria that you would accept with regard to attending the "Archaeology Field School" in October 2004 and what chances a graduate could be selected to accompany an expedition to one of the Electra "digs."

I would assume the graduate would have to pay his/her own way and outfit himself/herself to handle the environment. But what about the essentials of life, e.g., tents, food, on site transportation, etc.

I would like to get an idea of what one would be up against in terms of money, physical aptitude, personal gear requirements, etc. I can appreciate this would not be a "typical Boy Scout" camping trip but at the same time it could be quite an adventure if properly briefed.

Ted Campbell
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

The Alaska and Idaho investigations will take place before the October Field School, so selection for those teams is not an issue, but completion of the Field School is a requirement for being selected for other research expeditions.

Here's how it works.  About once each year we conduct an Aviation Archaeology Field School here in the U.S.  We pick an interesting and reasonably accessible aviation archaeological site.  We do two days of classroom work at a motel in the general area covering the basics of historic preservation philosophy and practical application as they apply to aviation, then we spend three or four days in the field surveying an actual historic crash site.   Graduates of the Field School get the letters "CE" (course/expedition) tacked onto their TIGHAR member number and are then qualified to be selected for research expedition teams - such as the "Dado Expeditions" or even the trips to Nikumaroro.

Tuition for the Field School usually runs around $1,500 (excluding airfare) but can vary depending upon location and facilities available.  On occasion in the past, physical fitness requirements have been something of a problem.  Believe it or not, there are folks out there who are in denial about their own capabilities and it can cause real problems for them and for everyone else in field situations.  Some sites, such as the YB-49 Flying Wing crash site where we held the school in 2002, are accessible by vehicle.  The physical requirements there were minimal.  Other sites, such as the Loon Lake B-23 crash site, are more demanding. There's an old TIGHAR saying, "Expeditions consist mostly of carrying heavy awkward objects long distances over difficult terrain in bad weather."

For this year's school we'll accept tentative registrations (no money) beginning with the next TIGHAR Tracks, due out in a couple of weeks. Once the EPAC team has been to the site in July we'll make a decision about whether it's suitable for the Field School and, if it is, we'll be able to put out an accurate description of what the physical demands will be so that people can make an informed decision about whether or not they want to confirm their registration with a deposit.

That's the plan.

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:06:57 -0500
From:         Tom Strang
Subject:      Chater contact?

Did George Putnam ever contact or correspond with Eric Chater of Guinea Airways?

Respectfully:

Tom Strang
************************************************************************ 
From Ric
Not that we're aware of.  Nobody involved with the flight seems to have had direct contact with Chater.  Bill Miller at the Bureau of Air Commerce knew Frank Griffith of Placer Mining who, in turn, knew Chater.  Miller contacted Griffith who contacted Chater who replied to Griffith who passed the information along to Miller. Other communication with the Southwestern Pacific was equally convoluted. You'd think that none of these people had ever heard of email.
=======================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:02:14 -0500
From:         Alexander
Subject:      Triangulation

Wouldnt it be possible to triangulate the position roughly say from the signal strength from the various people who reported the radio messages...
That is if they kept a log of the signal strength...

************************************************************************ 
From Ric

Only in the crudest sense.
=======================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:01:26 -0500
From:         Tom Strang
Subject:      Re: Chater contact

Re: AE Project Document # 8

What is your interpretation of the last two lines of James A. Collopy's Ltr. dated August 28th, 1937 suggesting at least correspondence between Mr. Chater and Mr. Putnam?

Respectfully:

Tom Strang
************************************************************************ 
From Ric

Collopy says:

"Mr. Chater advised me that he forwarded  a comprehensive report dealing with the aircraft's stay at Lae, work carried-out, radio messages  received, etc., to Mr. Putnam."

Collopy's letter is dated August 28, 1937.  Chater's letter to Frank Griffin ( in my earlier positing I had said Griffith.  It's Griffin.) was dated July 25th, 1937.  My interpretation is that Collopy misunderstood what Chater told him.

LTM,
Ric
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:15:11 -0500
From:         Angus Murray
Subject:      Re: Chater contact

< My interpretation is that Collopy
< misunderstood what Chater told him.

Is it not possible that Chater forwarded a copy to Putnam?

Regards Angus.
***********************************************************************
From Ric

Possible, but - in my opinion - not likely.  To what address would he send it?  And how would he get the address without leaving some kind of paper trail? And if Putnam had received a copy where did it go?  It should have ended up in the Purdue collection along with all the other Putnam paperwork.  And if Putnam had ever received a report from Chater why did he (and we) not know all the things we finally learned when Chater's letter to Griffin/Miller finally did surface, courtesy of Placer Dome Mining and publicity about TIGHAR's Earhart project? No,  I think there was only one Chater letter and it went to Griffin. I think Collopy just got it wrong.
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:21:44 -0500
From:         Greg Moore
Subject:      Re: triangulation

Ric, while the idea sounds viable, it simply won't work, as radio signals are subject to selective fading.  It is virtually impossible to do a DF from casual reception, as signal strength, at any given location is determined by propagation, time of day, solar activities, and the type of receiving antenna used.  It is a well known phenomenon for radio transmissions to skip, and be heard in the most unlikely places, where they really shouldn't be capable of reception.

The only true method of triangulation is with a DF loop and sense antenna to eliminate the inherent 180 degree ambiguity of a simple loop without a sense antenna to provide a baseline to eliminate any loop ambiguity.  In addition, any DF/ADF is not 100% reliable, due to certain propagation effects during changing conditions, most especially at dawn and dusk.  Although today, we have High Freq direction finders, as well as VHF/UHF finders, they were simply not available in the time frame of the AE flight.

Even to this day, if one looks at an adf in any aircraft, or, if one wants to go a little upscale, an RMHI (Radio Magnetic Heading Indicator) one will see one needle strictly on the low and medium freqs like they all were, with a second needle which can be tuned to a VHF Omnirange station, to give the relative bearing to the station, thereby backing up the VOR indicator.  I have found them invaluable in the past, because it gives one great relief and satisfaction having an instant "TO" course to a navaid, without having to dial in a course on the VOR knob and center the needle.   since the best  advise with anything is KISS (Keep it simple, stupid) I would much rather have a tried and true backup, instead of a whole bunch of bells and whistles, and that includes moving maps, GPS and other such bells and whistles. I was always taught that if you can't navigate with the minimal instruments available (simulating a catastrophic failure) then  you had a good chance of meeting your demise, flying in ever decreasing circles until one flew up ones (well, you know).  If you can't navigate with the simplest of navaids, including only one's whiskey compass, if that's all that works, well, then if you find oneself up to your neck in alligators, you deserve what comes your way. When I was studying for my instrument rating, both single and multi engine, my rotary rating, and my commercial ticket for both, my instructor, and very good friend used to disable as many instruments as possible, including radios, until I was flying airspeed and attitude, along with the whiskey compass, and if he didn't cover it up "needle ball and alcohol" simply meaning that ones T/C along with the other simple instruments, dead reckoning, and pilotage, and was expected to arrive at one's prescribed destination as if all the "gee whiz" stuff was in full operating.. I am eternally grateful for this realistic training (including pulling the key out and killing the appropriate engine, so I had no feeling of :well, we can always power this up at the last second. )

At any rate, as a former professional, and still professional and amateur radio op, I can assure you that there is no way to adequately triangulate a signal source simply from relative strengths.  If you wish, I will describe just how a DF and ADF system works, and put some block and schematic diagrams up on my website to show how loops work, and why a sense antenna is necessary.... If you look at photographs of ships, one will see a Bellini-Tosi unit, with 2 loops, at 90 degrees from each other, with a sense antenna at the top.  Most ADFs use a triangular coil, and    switch electronically between them, which will give a signal; in the 3 parts of the triangle whose signals are dependent on their orientation to the transmitting station, These signals are combined with the constant signal from the sense antenna, and the resultant  voltages (simple algebra/trig, are added and the resultant, combined with the sense signal, produce a signal whose phase drives the indicator.

That's' about the long and short of it, if you desire any more info please ask.

Greg Moore
Tighar 2645
Former US Navy RM1 and high speed telegrapher (CLF-23) and working busily on the logs., having spent one heck of a lot of hours on that part of the pond, and knows the quirky radio propagation there. Also a Commercial Pilot (without medical)
************************************************************************
From Ric

I agree entirely.  However, in your opinion, can any kind of conclusion be drawn from a large body of reported receptions, supposedly from the same source and heard over a period of several days, based on the location and signal strength reported by the various receivers?
=======================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:27:58 -0500
From:         Al Jeffries
Subject:      WoF

Ric:  Saw you by happy accident on Channnel 44(Boston)last night. You did well.

I've been wondering why was there no photograph or no photograph released of the wheel hub on Niku?

Thank you

Alfred Jeffries
*********************************************************************** 
From Ric

Thanks Al.  Must have been an old interview.  I've been laying low, media-wise, of late.

I wish to heck we could show you a photo of the wheel hub on Niku.  The guy who saw it in 2002 didn't photograph it and by the time we got back there to check it out last summer it had apparently been washed away by storms.  Very frustrating.
=======================================================================
Date:         Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:06:20 -0500
From:         Anne
Subject:      Canton Island

Since the forum seems a bit dead, I was thinking it might be a good time to ask a question or two... and as much reading as I have done, I haven't been able to find any answers...

I have been very bored at work and was reading through the old forum postings from the Tighar website and came across a few interesting threads discussing an engine on Canton Island.

1. I was curious if anything else ever came of this (the engine), if there was further investigation or a conclusion made (the postings stop in late 2001).

I was also looking again at the hypothesis and my other question is the likeliness of drinkable water on Niku when AE and FN were there. Did they have their own supply, and did the sailors of Norwich leave any water behind? I am curious how long one would be able to survive on the island given the heat and terrain, and any provisions they had (both food and water). from my knowledge, people cannot last more than a few days without food and only drinking water, but since AE and FN weren't accustomed to the heat, it would be a lot worse for them.

Anne
************************************************************************
From Ric

We have been unable to find anyone to corroborate the story about an engine being brought to Canton from another island.  We have found several people who remember an old engine in or near the maintenance shack but no one who can support the recollection that it was airlifted in from some other island.

We don't know how much drinking water AE and FN had with them but we do have a reliable report that some provisions, including water, were left behind by the rescuers of the Norwich City survivors.  Other than that, someone marooned on Nikumaroro would have to rely upon catching rainwater and rainfall can be sporadic.  Food should not be a problem - lots of fish and birds.  If it rained often enough and a method of catching and keeping the rainwater could be devised, a person could survive on Nikuamaoro, in theory, indefinitely.
=======================================================================
Date:         Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:16:40 -0500
From:         Greg Moore
Subject:      Re: triangulation

> in your opinion, can any kind of conclusion
> be drawn from a large body of reported receptions, supposedly from the
> same source and heard over a period of several days, based on the
> location and signal strength reported by the various receivers?

Ric, sure, there is a conclusion which can be drawn from a large number of receivers, with different antennas, and the conclusion would be that the signals are genuine, There is also enough anecdotal evidence from the people copying the signals that they did, indeed, originate from the AE flight, as there are some message content which simply could not have been phrased the way it was.  The received signals were obviously from people under severe stress, possible lack of potable water, and suffering from extreme fatigue. Now, and this is not very scientific, nor guaranteed accurate, but if one were to plot the time of these received transmissions, the location of the receiver, the type of antenna used, and the orientation of said antenna, it is conceivably possible, using some "blue sky" estimates of propagation (I am not sure if there were any measurements of solar flux and K indices back then, I seriously doubt it, but a way of sorting that out, would be to do some investigating of other listeners on frequencies around the suspect frequency, see where they originated from, where they were received, and do some reverse engineering of the propagation conditions involved.  The orientation of the receiving antennas can show a rough estimate of signal direction, and the time of acquisition/loss of signal, compared with other, non AE signals, on or near the same freq, could give a rough estimate of distance.  If one was lucky, one gets a small triangle, just like celestial nav, and is a good starting point for a search.

One should keep in mind, though, that one has to completely forget preconceived ideas when doing such an analysis.  Wherever the rough DR fix from the various signals, and antenna location/orientation leads, then one has to seriously consider that is where they indeed, emanate. If the resultant happens to be our friendly atoll, so be it, but if it happens to be at sea, well, then it's time to call in the side scan sonar and the ROV's.  If the xmtr and receiver were high enough in the aircraft, and the aircraft. being ;low on fuel, and thereby relatively floatable, it is possible that battery power could have been usable, if conserved, to power both the receiver (very low drain) and the dynamotor for the transmitter (high drain, and the limiting factor). This being said, the time frame of the signals does, at least to me, indicate that AE did, indeed make a landing with the airframe relatively intact, as well as at least one relatively intact and balanced prop, so the engine would run smoothly at sufficient RPM to get the generator on line.  And, they transmitted at least until they became incapacitated, ran out of fuel, flooded the equipment/engine, bent the prop against the water, or some other incident that put the period to the transmission. I only wish that the CW capability had been kept, as a CW signal is so much easier to triangulate/DF, carries further, and is, IMHO one heck of a lot more understandable than the "mushy" AM signals resulting from the screen modulation of the transmitters of that era (The screen modulation was used to cut down the weight of a humongous modulation transformer for plate modulation, which, while giving close to 100% mod, is extremely large and heavy, and since AE's crew was both somewhat radio-abhorrent and weight conscious to the point of omitting material which could have significantly improved a chance of rescue (Heck, even a  Ford model "T" spark coil will produce one heck of a damped wave signal, and will ruin everyone's reception for a great distance, as I learned in my early "ham' days, when I simply HAD to work spark, at least once.....the letter from the FCC cured that extremely quickly, even though they didn't suspend my license--hi)

Do we (TIGHAR) have any other evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) or has done any research concerning other signals, not necessarily from AE, but  from that part of the pond???  IF you do, it could prove invaluable, especially if details of the receiving equipment, antenna length, height, and orientation (note, most console radios of that period of the 1930's had,. what is in effect, a loop antenna mounted on the back of the case, and do make passable direction finders (I own a Zenith Trans-Oceanic, which I restored, and I can testify to this, besides, I happen to like radios that glow in the dark).  Now, I realize this is kind of a stretch, because of the years which have elapsed, error in memory, but the orientation of the houses in which the radios were located, where they were in the houses, etc could help tremendously in triangulation, albeit a crude, inaccurate, and untrustworthy one, but at least it would be a start.

************************************************************************
From Ric

I'm really not thinking of triangulation, per se.  I'm thinking of something much more general and much simpler.  In short, if most of the reports of signals heard come from stations in one geographic area (say, the Central Pacific rather than California) , is it likely that the signals are originating in that area?

************************************************************************
From Cam Warren

Att. Greg -

> Although today,
> we have High Freq direction finders, as well as VHF.UHF finders, they
> were simply not available in the time frame of the AE flight.

A popular - though erroneous - misconception.  Bendix was building and supplying the LF/HF RDF-1 to the Navy, and there's a strong likelihood AE had one aboard the Electra. It covered up to 8 mc, and she picked up Itasca's homing signal on 7.5 mc.

Cam Warren.

************************************************************************
From Ric

It should be noted that the presence of a high-frequency DF aboard the Electra is a matter of great controversy that has been debated ad nauseum on this forum.