Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:37:25 EDT From: Roger Kelley Subject: RAF aircraft. A quick search of the internet using the name "Gurdal Mehmetchik" produced the newspaper article below. I wonder if this is the same fellow who reportedly found the RAF fighter with a skeleton inside? The article speaks for it's self. LTM, Roger Kelley ------------------------------- 08 June ,2000, Copyright © Turkish Daily News Turkish Cypriots charge three with Koran smuggling Turkish Cypriot prosecutors said yesterday that they had charged three men with smuggling a priceless 11th century Koran from Turkey, for which they could face up to 10 years in jail. One prosecutor said that the three men, Turkish Cypriot Gurdal Mehmetcik and two men from Turkey, Muhlis Ciftci and Metin Karahan, have been charged with illegal possession and importation of antiquities and with not declaring imported antiquities to authorities. Police arrested Mehmetcik last week as he was boarding a plane for Britain. They said he was carrying a handwritten Koran dating from the 11th century which was stolen last year from Istanbul's Topkapi Palace, former home of the Ottoman sultans. The other two men were later arrested. End ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:39:57 EDT From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: 2-2-V-1 Does it have the kind of very fine pitting that seems to appear on aluminium after immersion for long periods in salt water? Kind of like what you see on an aluminium boat hull after a year or so? Th' WOMBAT ************************************************************************** From Ric No. The aluminum does not have the appearance of having spent much time in salt water. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:41:11 EDT From: Gary Fajack Subject: Re: Skeletons in water I saw a TV program years ago about divers exploring sunken Japanese ships in Truk lagoon and some of the ships contained skeletal remains of Japanese sailors. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:46:33 EDT From: Denise Subject: Sea Critters and Such Dennis O. McGee asks "Do any of TIGHAR's experts (Kar Burns?) have any scientific data on how long human bones can last in sea water with a "normal" concentration of sea critters." I have no scientific data on such matters, but I can tell you a giant moray eel was discovered decades ago in Fiji wearing a wet suit once owned by a man who supposedly fell off a boat and disappeared less than two years earlier. There was no man left in the suit; it was all eel. Of course this raised a lot of questions at the time: like 1) how long does it take a moray eel to eat an entire good-sized man?, and 2) why couldn't the eel get out again?, and 3) was there ever actually a man in that wetsuit?. Since the person in question was an undischarged bankrupt and his disappearance timely, there was speculation his vanishing was due to more than his being a moray-eel-meal. But this does beg the question "Why would an eel don an empty wetsuit?" I hope this goes some way towards answering your question, Mr McGee, and that answer is: maybe, perhaps, it could just be possible, that it takes less than two years. LTM (who made a mean moray-eel pate) Denise ************************************************************************** From Ric Sounds like a classic "urban legend" to me. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:48:10 EDT From: Gavin Subject: Re: RAF aircraft. Roger - I did the same thing, but further investigation suggests that guy is still in prison, so I don't think it is him. I have some contacts with dealings with divers in N.Cyprus and they know of the discovery, so I think the aircraft is genuine. Whether there are bones inside the cockpit or not is a mystery, but as I find out more I'll let you know Gav ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:18:09 EDT From: Dave Chase Subject: missing WASP & her P-51 Search might unravel mystery of pilot's fate By Laura Mecoy Bee Los Angeles Bureau (Published Aug. 1, 2001) LOS ANGELES -- Somewhere beyond the surf break at Dockweiler State Beach, several large pieces of metal buried beneath the sand and the waves hold the tantalizing possibility of solving a 57-year-old mystery for a Sacramento couple. Later this month, Sacramentans Laura and Ken Whittall-Scherfee hope to determine if the metal is the long-missing wreckage of the World War II fighter plane that Laura Whittall-Scherfee's great-aunt was flying when she disappeared in 1944. Her great-aunt, Gertrude Tompkins Silver, is the only member of the Women Airforce Service Pilots to disappear without a trace during World War II. http://www.sacbee.com/news/news/local02_20010801.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:35:48 EDT From: Brandon Marree Subject: Re: Skeletons in water I was reading a book about shipwrecks and I saw pictures of the Empress of Ireland which sank in 1909, and there pictures of skeletal remains in the ship, ninety years after the ship sunk. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:41:20 EDT From: Chuck Boyle Subject: Re: Coaxial cables I think the Forum would like to hear the comment Bill Davis, who was on Gardner Island when the Coast Guard shut down the operation in May 1946. Lee Boyle 2060 Chuck; I was on Gardner when it was closed down. To the best of my memory there were no 2 way radios there. Bill Davis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:43:42 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: Skeletons in water Brandon Marree wrote: << I was reading a book about shipwrecks and I saw pictures of the Empress of Ireland which sank in 1909, and there pictures of skeletal remains in the ship, ninety years after the ship sunk. >> The Empress of Ireland slipped beneath the fresh water of the St. Lawrence River in 1914. I think the 60 year old bones resting in the tropical depths of Truk Lagoon are more comparable to the situation that kicked off this thread. LTM, Russ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:45:00 EDT From: Vern Subject: Re: UK press Gavin, Tom King, et al. The difficult thing about the Clancy Search is that we're looking for descendents, not ancestors. That's quite a different kettle of fish. About all whatever records can be found pertaining to Edith Clancy Gallagher and her sisters, and brothers, can tell us is where they may have been at one time. This might be some help in looking for whatever families they may have had. It's probable that those sisters married and no longer show up as Clancys. I suspect the only hope is to get something in the press making known our search for living members of Edith Clancy's family and hope some one of the people we're looking for sees it and comes forward. Tom: Yes! If the release of the book should provide any opportunity at all to call attention in the UK to our Clancy search, we should certainly take advantage of it. ..."An important key to the Earhart mystery may be stashed away in some closet somewhere in the UK, etc., etc..." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:47:42 EDT From: Mike Houston Subject: Re: Skeletons in water Salt water demineralizes bones after about a year or two. They simply dissolve. First the collagen then the calcium. The only time you find bones in salt water is if the bones are covered in sediment that lacks oxygen and is the right pH. This explains the remarkable preservation of the Remains of the Hunley crew. Bones in the Empress of Ireland wreck are in fresh water and mostly covered in sediment. Thats why they get uncoverd from time time for photo ops. If its under salt water, you simply wont find bones unless they are covererd in sediment. Mike Houston *************************************************************************** From Ric Do we have known examples (Truk Lagoon?) that contradict this opinion? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:01:38 EDT From: T. A. Edison Subject: Re: The Methodology Ric, Tom King, et al., I am sending this note concerning "Amelia Earhart's Shoe", and the question of whether the "Pat. Pending" notice on the heel played any role in establishing a range of dates for that artifact. It this is covered in the book, then a direct referral to Tom King might be a better path for discussion. Whatever the current state of knowledge, it's a topic that I believe was mentioned briefly on the Forum, and which I think can add somewhat to our knowledge. LTM (Who always had shoes re-heeled with Cat's Paw(R)) ************************************************************************* From Ric The dating of the heel was done by matching the design to molds still in the company's possession that were in use in the mid-1930s. The "Pat. Pending" was not a factor. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:07:01 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Re: Clancy research I am sure TIGHAR has probably done this. But has anyone contacted the county archives where Gerald Gallagher last lived in the UK, or grew up, to ask what possible records may exist there in the (UK) after his death in Niku, as far as possible UK records? I know it is a long shot, but you have to believe there is some kind of record of the heir's of his estate, even if that record is not with the rest of his estate record. Regards. Warren Lambing *************************************************************************** From Ric Gerry Gallagher might have, but I don't know that he did. We have a copy of his will but that doesn't help much. It would probably be worth checking whatever records are there if we knew where "there" was. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:57:27 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: Skeletons in water I know that this is off-topic, but any shipwreck-lore buffs out there may find it interesting. Speaking of the Empress of Ireland, legend has it that there was a stoker named Frank Tower, who basically stepped from the sinking Titanic in 1912, the sinking Empress of Ireland in 1914, and the sinking Lusitania in 1915! I don't know the full veracity of this legend, but have seen it in print more than once. Interesting, though I admit it is a digression. If true, than he truly had more than his fair share of luck to have survived three catastrophes within three years. On the other hand, what are the law of averages that one person will even BE in such circumstances in such a span? Best wishes, Gene Dangelo # 2211 *************************************************************************** From Ric The island radio operator on Niku during the war was named "Frank". You don't suppose....nah. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:59:59 EDT From: Chris Subject: Re: The Gallagher Family Ric, you mention Gerard Gallagher is a maritime attorney in Scotland and might be able to shed some light on Gerald Gallagher 's personal effects might be but he's awfully busy right now. WHAT?? What's his problem? How busy can you be while this search for answers goes on? Couldn't he answer just one question about the effects? Geez Chris in Petaluma, Ca. *************************************************************************** From Ric Gerry Gallagher worked very closely with us for several months. He doesn't know where the effects ended up. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:38:51 EDT From: Warren Lambing Subject: Re: Clancy research How about few more details, if you have them? As I recall, didn't Gerald Gallagher. write letter's to a former teacher? Does that mean we know where he attended school? Also, how about details abut the Clancy family, to you know where any of them came from? With that information I might be able to at least find out where we might (big word, might) be able to help find some sources for UK records. I also aggress with Tom King, your best shot is a newspaper. I don't know the UK, but in rural America, a small town local Daily, or Weekly paper would pick up a story like Gallagher, if it had a local connection and perhaps with a little more information, we might at least identify a local paper with and interest in the story, if no where else perhaps a paper near where Gallagher went to school. If you can get the national UK press interested, even better yet, but you might have a better shot with a local paper with a local connection to Gallagher. Regards. Warren Lambing **************************************************************************** From Ric Yes, we know where he went to school and much more. The best I can do is to suggest that you review the Forum Highlights and forum archives to get up to speed on what we know from back when this was all being discussed and researched via the forum with Gerry Galllagher's active participation. At present I have to focus on preparations for the expedition. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:43:01 EDT From: Herman Subject: Re: UK press Has anyone thought of talking to the BBC ? They have a Breakfast News programme where all sort of topics are discussed. Are there any Tighar members in the UK who could send them an email about "the mystery of the lost letter " that might draw the attention of the press ? LTM (who believes TV is worth trying) **************************************************************************** From Ric I have a BBC Radio interview scheduled for August 20 and another BBC interview in the works but not yet firmed up, plus an interview with a station in Dublin. Mostly these people want to talk about the expedition but I can try to work in something about the mystery of Gallagher's personal effects. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:47:23 EDT From: Kar Burns Subject: Re: Skeletons in sea water Skeletal remains can remain for long or short periods of time in sea water. Like any other decomposition problem, it depends on the full set of conditions, not just the wetness. Temperature, pH, mineral content of the water, and access of other organisms are all important. I suspect that a closed cockpit is very useful. The Hunley, the primitive Civil War submarine, was recently lifted from 30 feet of water near Charleston, SC, and was found to contain bones, wood, and all sorts of goodies. The Smithsonian scientists claim that everything is in remarkable condition. (They haven't shown us what they mean yet.) With the Hunley, the conditions for preservation were the very things that made it hard to find. It had been rapidly silted under, so it was not exposed to currents; the water was brackish, not full salt water; and the temperature was low because of the moderate depth. We could design even better conditions under water or much worst conditions. Kar Burns *************************************************************************** From Ric For those who may not know, Kar Burns is Dr. Karen Burns, our forensic osteologist on the Earhart expedition team. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:56:02 EDT From: Sue Subject: Re: Clancy research I am new to the forum and have missed the Gallagher reference. where do I look. the forum is very esteemed company for an amateur like myself. thanks, sue *************************************************************************** From Ric We're more often steamed than esteemed, but you can find numerous references to British Colonial Service Cadet Officer Gerald B. Gallagher on the TIGHAR website. I'd start with Tom King's excellent paper "Gallagher of Nikumaroro" at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Research/Bulletins/25_GallagherNiku/25_GallagherNiku.html I would then look at "The Bones Chronology" http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Documents/Bones_Chronology.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:03:11 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: Skeletons in water > From Ric > > Do we have known examples (Truk Lagoon?) that contradict this opinion? Around 1994 i bought some artifacts brought up from Marus sunk off Kwajelein (sp?). The artifacts had been collected in the 1970s by Americans working there - this was before laws enacted by the new nations outlawed the taking of any historical detritus. There was quite an extensive list, many dishes and bottles and such, also a microphone. The wood handle, if i recall, most mostly diminished in diameter, but the brass microphone itself was undiminished. There were also some porcelain antenna insulators - i gave the list to a friend who collects insulators and he bought several examples. From this list i had only bought a picture book on the ships, with before and after (in Davy Jone's locker) photos. I gave the book to the insulator collector friend for a display he was putting together, so i can no longer cite the title, pages, etc. but i do recall the book stating that human remains were not unusual to find amongst the wreckage, and in fact the book named one sunken wreck notable for the large number of human bones scattered about in the open. This softcover picture book was written in the 1970s, so the photographs and descriptions in it are dated to that time approximately 32 years after the ships were caught by U.S. aircraft and sunk, along with much of their crews. I don't know enough to weigh the variables that affect ultimate decomposition, but i know enough not to be surprised anymore. I read that there might be still human flesh in the vicinity of the Titanic, and i also saw an intact German flag that had been dug up in Russia after some 50 years underground. Hue Miller **************************************************************************** From Ric "Historical detritus". Interesting concept. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:04:34 EDT From: Mike Houston Subject: Bones in Truk The bones in Truk are ones that were uncovered from sediment by divers. They arent laying around exposed. Please consider the amount of marine life there. Anything left exposed would be eaten long before it could dissolve. These few bones we see dug out had to have been covered quickly. I would find it interesting to know just where the divers actually find them. One thing is certain, once the divers pull them out for photo ops, they wont be around long after that. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 17:06:50 EDT From: Doug Brutlag Subject: Re: UK press Herman may have something here. Every time I've been to the UK they have always had shows on BBC 1 & 2 that deal with things of an historical nature. The Brits from what I have observed are avid history buffs and a chance to attach one of their own to the Earhart mystery might not only have an appeal but generate a good media blitz that will beat the bushes relating to the Gallagher contributions that could produce a vital & worthwhile crop of info. Doug Brutlag #2335 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 17:16:04 EDT From: Angus Subject: Re: A cry for help? Do you think the message in the sand could actually have read HELP FRED AND AMELIA KELE FASS AU MOLEI or HELP FRED & AMELIA KELE FASS A UMOLEI or HELP FRED + AMELIA KELE FASS A UMOLEI If the message was remembered rather than written down, it would be easy to confuse MOLIE with MOLEI and the correlation would then be even closer.The message could easily have been damaged in the space of a few days by weather water or animals to account for the differences. Regards Angus **************************************************************************** From Ric Of course, the alleged letters in the sand were on Sydney Island, not Gardner, and there were supposedly "dozens of Polynesian words" including the ones mentioned. If the pilots had said, "We saw HELF written in the sand." there might be reason to wonder but I can't see any reason to think that this incident (which wasn't even mentioned in any of the official reports) has any bearing on the Earhart disappearance. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 09:41:48 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: A cry for help? I played with this stuff for a while also, and if you look at it wrong-side up, it could look like 1370 W ?? 5563 3738 (or maybe 3734) I don't know what any of THAT might mean, but it was an interesting exercise... ltm jon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:33:38 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: Skeletons in water > From Gene Dangelo > Speaking of the Empress of Ireland, legend has it that > there was a stoker named Frank Tower, who basically > stepped from the sinking Titanic in 1912, the sinking > Empress of Ireland in 1914, and the sinking Lusitania > in 1915! From http://www.rmstitanic.co.uk/titanic_titanic_-_myths.htm FRANK TOWER The legend of fireman Frank Tower would have you believe that not only did he survive the sinking of the Titanic, but was also aboard the Empress of Ireland when she collided with the Storstad, and the Lusitania when that vessel was torpedoed and sunk by a U-Boat in May 1915 off the southern coast of Ireland. In fact, no person by the name of Frank Tower appears in any crew lists for those three vessels. - Bill #2229 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:35:54 EDT From: Angus Subject: Re: A cry for help? I think we finally have the answer to Amelia's disappearance. The beach message at Sidney is an anagram of See u folks - Amelia. Obviously it was a contrived disappearance and she reckoned that the time it would take anyone to figure it out would give her and Fred, time to disappear. (She was right!) Having landed near Sidney and scuttled the plane, they set out in the rubber boat, inspired no doubt by Captain Bligh, with the marine sextant for navigation to Indonesia to get only as far as Gardner. Realising the slim chance of success and their failing supplies of water, Fred goes on alone to get help but disappears in the vastness of the Ocean. He takes the sextant with him but leaves the box with Amelia as a keepsake Waddya reckon? Angus *************************************************************************** From Ric Of course! (slapping forehead) Why didn't WE think of that? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:44:23 EDT From: Denise Subject: On Re-reading the Gallagher File Have been re-reading Tom King's excellent account of Gerald Gallagher's life and times in your Forum Files and noticed something I find a little odd: what was Gallagher doing with a flying helmet and goggles? Is there any indication that he flew? Or that he had a special interest in aviation? I don't want to suggest the guy would do anything dishonest, but what if these items were found on Nikumaroro? Say, if they were found during his absence from the island - say on the wreck of Norwich City - and they'd only just been handed over to him? And if nothing was done about sending them on to Suva because Gallagher illness and death was in the forefront of all minds; his most of all? Has anyone thought to view these particular artifacts? I realise you're still looking for Gallagher descendants in order to find his effects, but when they are found maybe priority could be given to checking these items to see if they connect with FN or AE? Just a thought! LTM (who can't understand why a non-pilot has such artifacts ... or why anyone would own 40 tennis shirts - with or without collars!) Denise ************************************************************************** From Ric Gerald Gallagher was a licensed pilot. His effects also included his license and his logbook. Gerry Gallagher told me that he found records indicating that Irish learned to fly while he was at Cambridge. It is also worth noting that there is no indication, and little reason to suspect, that Earhart had a helmet and/or goggles with her on the 1937 flight. Such "accoutrements" are of no use in Lockheed 10. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:47:08 EDT From: Bob Brandenburg Subject: Poster Map of Niku The poster map of Niku arrived yesterday. It's magnificent!!! With this map, it will be easy to follow the expedition's activities. Compliments to Pat. Bob #2286 ************************************************************************ From Ric We kind of like it too. If nothing else you can check off the boxes where Amelia ain't. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 10:05:50 EDT From: Ric Subject: Washington Post Decent story today in the Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35919-2001Aug5.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:08:36 EDT From: Tim Smith Subject: Re: Poster Map of Niku I received my poster/map on Saturday. It is a beautiful job. All you Forumites who are interested in following the progress of Niku IIII will want to get one. Tim Smith 1142CE ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:24:03 EDT From: Ed Subject: Re: Washington Post This is the first time since I've been on the list you acknowledged Nauticos. They actually have an impressive track record. What are you thoughts on them? -Ed *************************************************************************** From Ric The forum has discussed and debated Nauticos and their plans at length. The concensus seems to be that they have relied upon Elgen Long's assumptions in calculating their search area. If the airplane went down at sea and if Elgen's assumptions are all valid, Nauticos has a nearly impossible job to find it in that much ocean. If the airplane went down at sea and any of Elgen's assumptions are not valid, then a discovery would be based upon pure dumb luck. If the airplane did not go down at sea then luck won't help. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:27:58 EDT From: A. Gomez Subject: No scruples I join those who disapprove the salvage manouvers conducted with no method, science or any achaeological procedures. These people don't realize they may trhow away years of valuable research, love, courage. Could TIGHAR talk to the Kiribati Government? Could TIGHAR perhaps have a permanent mission (or at least from now until the sept. journey ends) over there. in the Kiribati Government?. i am no politician. but these actions remind me that these hunters are all over the world. Please, i'm sure this type of mail has been received a lot by the FORUM, if so, please deposit mine where it is appropriate. my respect and admiration to all of you TIGHAR folks. *************************************************************************** From Ric Thank you. Kiribati really has no capability to police these islands. Respect for archaeological sites, whether in a city or in the middle of the Pacific, relies upon education. We do what we can. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:00:44 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: Skeletons in water >no person by the name of Frank Tower appears in any > crew lists for those three vessels. Wasn't he was also supposed to have been on the Britannic (Titanic's sister) when she was torpedoed in the Aegean during WW1 ? Would you classify this (hypothetical) guy as lucky (in surviving) or unlucky (in selecting his berths) ?? LTM Simon #2120 **************************************************************************** From Ric The lesson is clear. If you want to be sure that you'll survive any mishap make sure that your name is not on the manifest. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:00:19 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Survivors I remember watching a special on the History Channel recently and there was a member of the crew (female) who was on the Titanic, the sister ship Britannic when it was sideswiped and again on it when it was sunk off the coast of Greece in WWI. She survived all three scrapes and retired to the US. Yours, Dave Bush #2200 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:02:45 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: Skeletons in water > From Simon Ellwood > Wasn't he was also supposed to have been on the Britannic (Titanic's sister) > when she was torpedoed in the Aegean during WW1? The propaganda machine let out that it was a torpedo. The post war records don't support this idea at all. Most serious historians believe she struck a mine. I don't have access to the crew lists of the Britannic. However, while you can't prove a negative, it happens that I _do_ find numerous matches with "Frank Tower" and the three ships already mentioned, but none with that name and Britannic. A more intersting story, and a true one, is that of Violet Jessup, a stewardess, who was on both Titanic and Britannic when they sank. > Would you classify this (hypothetical) guy as lucky (in surviving) or > unlucky (in selecting his berths)? I have a hard time dealing with the concept of "luck," and even more so when applied to mythical scenarios. > From Ric > > The lesson is clear. If you want to be sure that you'll survive any mishap > make sure that your name is not on the manifest. I thought the lesson was, when a disaster occurs, be somewhere else? And we seem to be moving far afield. The only relevance to A.E. and her trip that I observe here is that, just as there are a wealth of inaccurate stories about her, there are numerous inaccuracies about virtually any well known event. The other interesting point, perhaps (as I've said before) is that a number of people attracted to the A.E. story are also attracted to the Titanic story. Having studied about Titanic for something like twenty years, and especially the story of her discovery, I'm struck by the similarities and the differences between the two searches. - Bill #2229 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:13:28 EDT From: Christopher Subject: "Betty's" Notebook I've been trying to absorb all the Web info available on TIGHAR's website and am particularly struck by "Betty's" notebook... I have seen Research Bulletins and even the scanned JPEGS of the notebook itself. But, questions: WHY is her story so compelling? What ARE the pieces of evidence that make it unlikely she made it up? Were the specifics outlined in a printed form (an older TIGHAR newsletter)? If so, how can I get it? LTM, Christopher *************************************************************************** From Ric Betty's story is compelling because: 1. A real-time transcription survives, so we don't have to realy upon memory to know what was heard. 2. The transcript contains several instances of what appears to be "occult" information (information that could not have been known by Betty or a hoaxer). 3. We've established that it should have been possible for Betty to hear what she heard (see Harmony and Power - Could Betty Have heard Amelia on a Harmonic? http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Research/ResearchPapers/Brandenburg/HarmonyandPower.pdf LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:18:37 EDT From: Bill Conover Subject: Kite antenna Referring back to a discussion from last October concerning kite antennas, I came across this wreck recovery site that has a couple of interesting shots of just such an item.The kite comes from a German Jul88 downed in the UK in WW2. Thought it might be of passing interest as a visual. The URL is: http://www.sweffling.freeserve.co.uk/hemley.htm LTM, Bill Conover (#2377) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:22:50 EDT From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Grid Map ordering info Could you put the informationon on the grid map up on the Forum again. I intended on ordering one but deleted The message that had the order and price data. Dick Pingrey 908C *********************************************************************** From Ric July 30, 2001 We've taken the satellite image and overlaid a grid of sectors each of which is 140 meters (450 feet) square. Alphanumeric coordinates allow you to identify any particular sector. During the expedition, the plan is for me to make daily satellite phone reports to Pat here at TIGHAR Central from which she will write up a brief report which will be posted on the TIGHAR website. I'll key my reports to the coordinates on the map, so a typical report might go, in part, something like: "Today the dive team covered approximatley 200 meters of reef front in sector WB5 while the grave team began excavation of the feature located in sector WE7." The grid maps will only be available to TIGHAR members, but of course membership in TIGHAR is open to anyone who wishes to join. If you think this is a scheme to reward TIGHAR members for their support while also encouraging new membership, you're absolutely correct. Almost as good as a secret decoder ring. We'll have ordering info up on the website soon but in the meantime, if you're a TIGHAR member and we already have your credit card number, just email us and say you want a map. Otherwise you can fax your order and credit card info to (302) 994-7945 or phone us at (302) 994-4410. If you're not yet a member you can join via the website (www.tighar.org) or by fax or phone. Of course, you can also mail us a check, payable to TIGHAR, at: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:24:35 EDT From: Shirley Subject: Re: Poster Map of Niku I received my poster/map today and have been studying it all evening. It is really a wonderful item and I can't wait to follow the expedition. Since I can't go on it, I will feel more closely associated with all who do go. Wonderful job guys. shirley 2299 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:29:18 EDT From: Kerry Tiller Subject: Re: Washington Post > From Ric > > Decent story today in the Washington Post. > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35919-2001Aug5.html Well, as far as the two theories are concerned, if I may paraphrase Abraham Lincoln; We might both be wrong, but one of us HAS to be wrong. LTM Kerry Tiller ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:55:25 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: Survivors Violet Jessup Stewardess on Olympic (first of the three sisters, at the time of her collision with the Hawke) and Titanic, and a nurse on the Britannic. Interestingly, she not only survived the sinking of Britannic, but survived her life boat being smashed to bits by one of Britannic's propellers. If you want more on this (we're getting way off topic) you should check out the alt.history.ocean-liners.titanic news group. A brief, fairly accurate (if hard on the eyes) summary of these ships, and Violet's experiences, is at http://members.tripod.com/~titanic3/brit.html - Bill #2229 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:39:27 EDT From: Hue Miller Subject: Re: "Betty's" Notebook I would feel better about the analysis if the table headers read "radiated power" or "power in antenna". Methinks the analysis still ignores antenna matching at harmonic frequencies, to the transmitter, causing potentially drastic additional reduction in available power. For example, suppose AE's antenna was roughly 1/4 wave resonant at 6210. This is a low impedance. However, the 4th harmonic, the 24+ MHz frequency, sees the antenna as a very high impedance. The contrast is between a few tens of ohms and perhaps thousands of ohms in the second case. It remains to be calculated, or demonstrated, how much actual power can be radiated, reckoning with these additional complexities. I also would like to ask how the upper limit of 27 MHz or so was arrived at. Is there any published MUF information for these dates and times? Only reason i ask is regarding low distance contacts with AM transmitter of, outstanding examples i am aware of, were on these upper frequencies, roughly in the area of the present CB band up to low 30s of MHz. Also, i wonder if anyone has actually modelled the AE craft and the antennas on it, and actually measured the antenna electrical characteristics from that? Is there not someone right now actually building quite a large scale model of the 10E ? Hue Miller ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:43:45 EDT From: Craig Fuller Subject: Loon Lake B-23 Exploited Not AE, but on the subject of preservation and I know a number of the B-23 crew is on the forum. It just makes me sick to see items sold like this, especially when my web site as well as TIGHAR's are used to hype it! http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1171514830 Craig Fuller TIGHAR #1589CE *************************************************************************** From Ric Amen. Very disturbing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:45:42 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: SURVIVORS Just for the record : Violet Jessop and John Priest were crew members on Olympic, subsequently transfering to Titanic and surviving both the foundering of Titanic and the loss of Britannic after hitting a mine in WW1. John Priest later also survived the war losses of Alcantara and Donegal and eventually died of pneumonia in 1935. Frank Tower, said to have survived the sinking of Titanic, Empress of Ireland and Lusitania, does not appear on the sign on list for Titanic. LTM from Herman (#2406) ****************************************************************** From Ric End of thread. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:15:48 EDT From: Christopher Subject: Notebook again... OK, I've read these explanations on the site, but what ARE the occult pieces of information? How do you KNOW it was really transcribed in the 1930s? Just trying to get it set in my own mind........ LTM, Christopher *************************************************************************** From Ric Possible occult information includes: - "George - get the suitcase in my closet - Califiornia" Many people knew that Earhart's husband was named George but few knew that they owned two houses, one in New York and one in California. - Assigned lat/long position of USS Ontario. The notebook says "S 309' 165 degrees E" Ontario's assigned position - which was not publicly available - was 3 degrees 5 minutes South, 165 degress East. Nine and five are the most commonly confused numbers when spoken. - "N.Y., N.Y or something that sounded like that" may be Norwich City mistaken for New York City. Extensive research by the forum confirmed that the songs and films noted in the rest of the notebook match the time period in question. We also have correspondence from her relatives dating back to the 1970s in which they make reference to being aware of the incident in 1937. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:29:46 EDT From: Gus Murray Subject: Re: No mention of Gardner One thing that puzzles me is this. Why, if Noonan was such a good navigator, is there no reference in the post loss messages to Gardner. Since we can assume he had no difficulty knowing his LOP he would have known for definite, that the island they had found must be Gardner. There was no other island within a couple of hundred miles of that LOP at that latitude that it could have been (assuming he had even some idea of latitude). It would have been much easier and would definitely have guided rescuers to the right place, to give the name of the island. It seems impossible to believe that his charts did not show it, even as just a dot. The post loss messages also have been suggested to give distances from other islands which presupposes he knew where he was. If he had the sextant as opposed to just the box, it would have been easy to get an exact position but it seems there were no Lat/Long figures given either. During the whole length of the "Betty" transmissions there is no mention of Gardner and yet one would have thought it would have been continuously repeated if it was known. Even if Noonan was not compos mentis, injured or dead, one would imagine that AE would have been able to work it out. On a different topic, I was interested to note that one message gives an indication of having landed to the southwest. Is there any suitable reef on this coast to land an aircraft? I was also somewhat puzzled that the Aukeraime site was given such credence early on as a possible bones site when all the descriptions of the bones discovery mentions the southeast corner and southeast shore. Whilst the Aukeraime site is to the Southeast of the island and is southeast of the villages etc, by no stretch of the imagination is it a southeast shore. It is a southwest shore. The seven site on the other hand fulfils all the requirements with the exception of the "under two miles". This I think is of very little significance as Gallagher had probably only an approximate idea of the length of the island and was probably working on a percentage of its length. With no real landmarks at the seven site to guide him from memory, this percentage factor could easily have been some way out. It would also be natural (even if only subconsciously) to minimise the distance from a water source in telling the story to heighten the dramatic effect. The tank etc could have been not only the camp of the search party, but alternatively that of the work party which originally made the bones discovery. In neither case would they necessarily have been at the bones site, even in the case of the search party because they may not have remembered exactly where the discovery had been made. For this reason I think it is well worth covering the adjacent area as widely as possible in the forthcoming search. *************************************************************************** From Ric I suppose we could debate all day whether Noonan, as portrayed in Betty's Notebook, was competent to figure out that they were at Gardner Island. Whether AE could have figured it out on her own also seems like an imponderable. The only question we can really ask is, "Is it so unreasonable to think that Earhart would not have known the name of the island that we must therefore discount the notebook as authentic?" I don't think so. Your charcterization of the Seven Site as being on the southeast shore and Aukeraime as being on the southwest shore is yet another example of how little agreement there is about what to call different parts of the island. I have never seen a place where the there is so much confusion about what to call what. I agree that our search of the Seven Site should include the surrounding area. That's in the plan. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:03:29 EDT From: Mark Donnel Subject: Re: Mosquitos - Off-topic a little Know this is a little off-topic for the Amelia forum but I've been following the thread on Mosquito's with a bit of interest, think they're a marvellous plane. Interesting news re Mosquito's is that there's a group in New Zealand who are building new jigs and moulds for Mossies, using the original De Havilland drawings. Their intention is to be able to completely rebuild new airframes from these jigs/moulds. Not sure what they're intending doing for engines etc. If you're interested in a little more detail check out http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/articles/mosquito.htm I'd love to know what progress they've made since the article was written in 1996, anyone know anything? ****************************************************************** From Ric This really is totally off-topic. If you want to chat with Mark about this please contact him directly. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:07:14 EDT From: Claude Subject: gardner island the year is 1937,, what do people know about gardner island?? after crashing on a deserted island 2 people alone in this extreem world with the idea that the rest of the world cant hear them any way.. EA and FN are not exactly navy seals. City life tends to mute any survival skills unless they are current. we know from B F Skinner that when EA and FN are in thier element they are pecking on the appropriate buttons. However,, when you look out the window and all you see is ocean and sand and trees, hmmm what button to peck now??? maps are in the plane,, other assests are in the plane,, what to do??? guess what? how will the rat find the cheese?? at this time of maximum stress reflex,(tired, been going hard nearly 24 hours, lots of trouble in you mind, maybe injured) EA and FN were required to perform the highest possible level of expertise. Neither one of them were atheletes,, EA was sick before she left Lae. Did they make mistakes?? Go figure... ************************************************************************** From Ric I find it fascinating that so many people think Amelia Earhart's initials are EA. Must be a phonetic thing - Emilia Airheart. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:17:23 EDT From: Kenton Spading Subject: Phoenix Island Travel I correspond occassionally with some Kiribati folks who live in England. The following is and email that I received. It provides some historical context for the Phoenix Islands. LTM Kenton Spading ------------------------------------------------- Mauri Mr Spading, I was only about 6 years of age, back in 1964 when my family and I, took a holiday back to Tabiteuea Island in the Southern Gilbert group. We called on a number of islands in the Phoenix group en route. We sailed on the HMS Ninikoria if I remember correctly, as was then. It was a small passenger boat in comparison to the English Channel passenger boats of my present experiences! We called at Canton for more passengers making similar holiday trips but to other islands in the Gilbert group. The Americans were on Canton at the time for nuclear testing purposes. The next islands we briefly stopped at were Birnie Island - admiring the variety of birds!, Hull Island where we anchored off shore and only a group of sailors landed to collect a supply of papaw, young sweet coconuts and other goodies from the island. I remember them reporting that there were dogs running wild on the island - the islands have long been deserted by then by the Gilbertese settlers who were transferred to the Solomon Islands. I distinctly remembered my amazement at the enormous size of the papaws! If my memory is correct, we also stopped at Gardner Island for the same purpose we made at Hull and then onwards to Tarawa. The inter-island travelling was virtually unheard of in those years and I believed that this was the main reason the islands in the Phoenix group were deserted, (especially when the island looked so fertile on outward visit). Reports claimed that they were deserted due to salty water which was possible due to dry periods. When I was on Christmas Island, if we were lucky, a cargo ship would call once or at the most, twice in a year and then nothing for some more years! There are quite a number of older people still living on Christmas Island but the majority are back on their original islands in the Gilbert group. The islands are so small, you will be amazed that names and their whereabouts (in villages) in the Gilbert group can easily be supplied. One of the older people I remember is still living with his family on Christmas Island ......[he went on to give me the man's name and address]. end ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:01:08 EDT From: Vern Subject: Niku from Satellite... and Shuttle?? We saw a few tantalizing pixels in the satellite picture of Nikumaroro. I'm hoping we may also see some pictures of the island from the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission, during February of 2000. This provides a "foliage penetrating" kind view of the ground surface below. Specular reflection, such as from a piece of airplane skin or from a puddle of water, results in a black spot in the image -- no scattered reflection signal returned to the receiver. However, I'm worried by the fact that they turned the rig off when over large expanses of ocean. They may not have looked at the Phoenix Islands. I've seen pictures of Fiji and parts of New Zealand and, of course, the Hawaiian Islands but none of the Phoenix Islands to date. They'll be turning out these images for a long time to come. You can get to the various archives of images available to date from: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/ Maybe there's some way to find out if they were looking when they passed over some of those South Pacific islands. I haven't pursued that possibility. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:04:36 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: CHRONOMETER Now I'm confused. After all the myths I've heard about AE and FN here is one I have never heard before. In "Who's Who in Aviation History" by William H. Longyard in 1994 the author writes... "the flight originated in Miami, but trouble with the navigator's chronometer hampered progress". Then the story goes on until AE and FN get to New Guinea, where it then says that "Although advised to wait to have the chronometer fixed, Earhart and her navigator, Fred Noonan, decided to make the attempt". Is there any thruth is this story ? Has there ever been any indication that FN did indeed experience trouble with his chronometer ? Personally I find it difficult to believe anyone would start out across the Pacific with unreliable time keeping equipment. LTM (who wants watches to show the exact time). Herman (#2406) ************************************************************************** From Ric Just another piece of Earhart mythology. The departure from Lae was delayed because Noonan had a hard time getting time checks for his chronometer. This was due to poor communications with locations in Australia and Southeast Asia where the time checks originated. Good solid checks were finally received before they departed on July 2nd. There was nothing wrong with Fred's chronometer. See The Chater Report - http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Documents/Chater_Report.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:06:44 EDT From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Niku from Satellite... and Shuttle?? >From Vern >I'm hoping we may also see some pictures of the island from the Shuttle Radar >Topography Mission, during February of 2000. It probably won't help. As far as I can determine, the resolution is 30 meters. It also look like they omitted most ocean areas from the data collection. If they did scan Nikumaroro, the most you could say would be "Yes, it sure is an atoll!" On the other hand, if the aliens really captured Amelia, maybe the mothership would show up. Daniel Postellon #2263? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:15:12 EDT From: Angus Subject: Re: Thermometer I was interested to read details of the thermometer found. The "hook" you describe (how about a photo?) sounds like the locating tail used on thermometers of indifferent accuracy which used a separate scale. A hole was drilled in the scale and the tail located the glass in the correct relationship to the scale. Such thermometers were used eg in banjo type aneroid barometers.It would be useful to determine if the fluid was mercury by trace analysis. Although it could even have originated from something as unlikely as a jam thermometer, the chances are that it was a thermometer to measure ambient temperature and so sealed in a box and unlikely to be a medical or photographic thermometer. Did the Electra carry a thermometer for e.g. any instrument calibration purposes or to measure cabin temperature? It was suggested that the aluminium panel (2-2-V-1?) could not be analysed on an isotopic basis because aluminium has only one naturally occurring isotope. However both magnesium and copper which also appear in this alloy have several isotopes whose relative abundances may alter with source. The problem arises however that an e.g. WWII aircraft, could have been repaired with old stock aluminium. I would have thought that recovery of the Canton engine was a high priority. Its discovery and identification would at least confirm the Electra landed somewhere in the Phoenix islands. It would also generate additional interest and funds for further work. Whilst its recovery from below a pile of scrap without machinery might be slow and difficult in a tropical environment, with a suitably geared winch and ground anchor, very heavy scrap metal, old diesel engines etc can be moved with minimal manpower. With a generator and electric winch, it would be almost a rest-cure! Regards Angus **************************************************************************** From Ric Further research has shown the thermometer to be almost certainy a "sling psychrometer" for measuring dew point and most likely associated with the 1939 USS Bushnell survey. The problem with excavating the Canton dump is not manpower, it's the cost of getting machinery out there. When it seemed that the engine might be sitting on the surface it was worth the $50,000 it cost to go check out that possibility. Transporting any kind of excavation equipment to Canton much bigger than a shovel would cost at least three times that. Add to that the fact that the engine, at this point, exists only as an anecdote (no photos or third party corroboration) and it just isn't cost effective to chase it. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:49:56 EDT From: Doug Brutlag Subject: Canton Engine Ric is dead right about the expense of recovering the(possible?) Canton engine. Some time ago I looked into the possibility of having 10,000 gallons of avgas delivered to the island and gagged at the cost of the barge neccesary to accomplish the job. An engine recovery could literally cost as much as the next Niku expedition-possibly more. The only regular boat traffic that calls on the island is an annual or semi-annual visit the Coast Guard makes as mentioned in a Ocean Navigator article. Doug Brutlag #2335 *************************************************************************** From Ric <> I appreciate the sentiment but could you think of a different way to express it? (I get sensitive to these things just before an expedition.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:33:02 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Grid Map OK, I gotta have one of those neat Niku grid maps to go with my new TIGHAR ballcap and Electra model. That way I can see what you're up to (map), feel like part of the expedition (hat), and work some positive mojo for success using the Electra likeness. Of course, I plan to also celebrate the great British gin tradition about 1800 hours every day in my backyard hammock. A $25 check is on the way for the expedition map. blue skies, jerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:44:40 EDT From: Dean A. Subject: upcoming trip I want to wish the expedition luck and want to say what many members are thinking. The most important thing is a safe trip !!!!!!!!!!! But don't bother to come back without the smoking gun LOL ************************************************************************ From Ric We like to say that it's never worth hurting live people to look for dead ones. We'll do the best job we can and feel fortunate if we find a few pieces of this and that which, after further research and analysis, move the investigation forward. The media hype has everyone expecting an Indiana Jones style discovery but that's not the way archaeology works. Howard Carter's opening of Tut's tomb is memorable, in part, because it was so unusual. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:48:18 EDT From: Harvey S. Subject: good luck,Ric! This is my first message to the forum. First,I wish you and the entire TIGHAR team Godspeed and good hunting for the upcoming expedition. Your broad knowledge and experience have been a constant source of inspiration and guidance to me in my own research. For the past year,I have been hard at work putting together a computer based 'math model' of the model 10E. I have run into many obstacles,primarily the lack of tech. data. One question plaguing me is this: referring to Birch Matthews letter of 1/03/00, he quotes P&W S3H1 engine data as follows: 550 HP, 2200 RPM, 34.5inches MAP, and 5000 feet critical altitude. My question is this: did the model 10E as flown by AE have an engine driven supercharger (blower) or not? It seems to me that to achieve the 34.5 inch MAP which is of course greater than atmospheric pressure,a supercharger must have been used.Also,the presence of a supercharger would seem to be indicated by the tabulated "critical altitude" which I think refers to the max a ltitude at which sea level pressure can be maintained by a supercharger. Other data that I have indicates that at 30 inches MAP,the max engine shaft HP is about 470 HP @ 2200RPM,(at standard conditions,less at high temp,high humidity) probably insufficient for the overgross LAE takeoff in 2800 feet or so. Anyone? LTM harvey s. #2387 *************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Harvey. Yes, the S3H1 did have a blower of modest capability. Can anyone help with details? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:49:53 EDT From: Lee Kruczkowski Subject: Re: Canton Engine As a participant on the Canton expedition finding the engine may not be the smoking gun we need. observing the amount of rust corrosion deterioration on other metal objects such as the dozer and truck remains on the beach, i think it may be next to impossible to find a part or serial number on metal exposed to these elements. the engine at best could be identified as to type. it would require considerable funding and labor to recover. Lee #1821CE ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:54:18 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Re: Canton Engine Ric wrote: > Add to that the fact that the engine, at this point, exists only as an > anecdote (no >photos or third party corroboration) and it just isn't cost > effective to chase it. I thought you found others that confirmed the account of finding the engine. Wasnt there a helicopter crew or others stationed at Canton that saw this engine? LTM, Mike *************************************************************************** From Ric We found one mechanic who remebers that Bruce had some kind of old engine propped up outside the maintenance shop for a while but he doesn't know what it was, how it got there or what happened to it. None of the helicopter pilots or crew or administrative personnel we've been able to locate have any recollection of the engine. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:31:03 EDT From: Ric Subject: The New Britain Theory From The following is an excerpt of an article that appeared in yesterday's USA TODAY describing the frustrated attempts of an Australian by the name of David Billings to attract funding for his efforts to solve the Earhart mystery by re-discovering wreckage found in the jungles of new Britian during WWII. ------------------------------------------ The story begins in the dense jungle of New Britain on the dark and misting afternoon of April 17, 1945. A 20-member patrol of D Company, 11th Australian Infantry Battalion, assembled in Perth, is trying to keep ahead of a larger contingent of Japanese following them. Lead elements of the Australian patrol stumble upon aircraft wreckage nearly buried in the undergrowth bits of bare-aluminum engine covering, corroded cowling, bent propeller and tubing. The lieutenant, Backhouse, explores further and finds the outline of a fuselage, wings and a crushed cockpit. A metal tag with letters and numbers is pulled off an engine mount and the patrol moves on. Back at company headquarters, the information is passed up the chain of command and on to the Americans, since the aircraft seems neither Japanese nor Australian. A response arrives weeks later stating that the plane is probably a civilian aircraft, a Lockheed Electra with Pratt & Whitney Wasp engines. Months later, the war ends. Before the battalion heads home, discarded equipment is piled up to be burned. But at the last minute, company clerk Len Willoughby retrieves the map from the April 17 patrol and keeps it as a souvenir. All is largely forgotten, but at veteran reunions decades later, talk still turns on the mysterious wreckage and what it might have been. The Earhart theory arises in 1990, when patrol member Don Angwin sees a TV program about her disappearance that mentions the twin Wasp engines on her Electra. "My mind swung back to that mystery aircraft that we had found in 1945," Angwin says in a videotaped interview. (He died in December.) His efforts to elicit support from the Australian military leads to a modest expedition to New Britain, without success, in 1993. But news stories about his theory attract Billings, who joins Angwin's effort in 1994. About the same time, Willoughby passes on to Angwin the map he has held for many years. The map is topographically inaccurate and of little use in retracing the patrol route. But as Angwin has it photocopied, he removes war-era tape covering its edges and finds the penciled notes in the margin. Billings believes an Australian soldier jotted the notes down when the U.S. Army responded to the metal tag recovered from the wreckage. The notation is dated about five weeks after the patrol took place. It contains the C/N 1055 aircraft serial number and the designation "S3H1," which corresponds to the model series of the engines used on Earhart's Electra. An Army report that might have documented the tag could not be found, Billings says. "The evidence on the map is fairly conclusive," Billings says. "There is no way in this world that an Australian digger, a foot soldier, would know her aircraft serial number." The map notes are not without a hitch. They refer to 600 horsepower engines. This would be wrong for Earhart. Hers were 550 horsepower. But Billings has a couple of theories to explain this. One is that the tag removed from the wreckage was a repair tag. Earhart's engines had been rebuilt after she crashed her Electra in Hawaii during an initial global effort in March 1937. Billings believes that Pratt & Whitney may no longer have had 550 horsepower engine mounts and used mounts for newer 600 horsepower engines. In the final analysis, he believes Earhart must have had a Plan B if she could not find Howland. "Why would she go right out there and not have enough fuel to get to" the nearest islands, Billings says. "If you're a pilot over the big wet, you don't leave yourself out on a limb." -------------------------------------------------------- The theory, of course, has one fundamental problem. One of the few things we know with some certainty is that the airplane left Lae with, at most, a little over 24 hours worth of fuel and at 20 hours and 13 minutes into the flight was somewhere within roughly a hundred miles of Howland. With, at best, about 4 hours of fuel remaining the airplane was easily 18 hours from New Britain. What is most interesting to me about the article is the way the story seems to have evolved over the years. Don Angwin contacted me in 1992 and the story was rather different. There was no map - only a map case with some notations scribbled on it. There was no wrecked airplane - just a single engine which, based upon some numbers jotted down and sent to headquarters, was said to be a Pratt & Whitney "Wasp". Several prewar types used in the region were equipped with the ubiquitous Wasp. The discovery of the notations under "war-era tape" on the edge of a map apparently happened after I told Angwin that Earhart's plane was c/n 1055 and her engines were S3H1 Wasps. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:33:14 EDT From: Doug Brutlag Subject: R-1340 specs I've got some general info data from Dyke's Aircraft Engine Instructor manual on the R-1340 if you would like to pass my email address to Harvey. Doug Brutlag ******************************************************************** From Ric I will do so. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:36:14 EDT From: Doug Brutlag Subject: Best Wishes Since the time is fast approaching for Niku IV I'd like to give my my best wishes for a safe & successful expedition. Sorry things didn't work out that I could air drop a case or two of barley pops. Godspeed. Doug Brutlag #2335 **************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Doug. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:49:35 EDT From: Ric Subject: Forum during expedition During the Niku IIII expedition (Aug 24 to Sept. 27) the forum will continue, moderated by Pat Thrasher, TIGHAR's president and my wife. Pat will not be able to answer questions or provide information about the expedition beyond the daily reports she'll be posting on the TIGHAR website. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:45:01 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: Canton Engine A small correction to Ric's statement! Mike is correct! I found and interviewed a helicopter pilot who definitely remembered seeing the old radial engine propped up in/around the old maintenance shack on Kanton. The interviewed was conducted so as to not to lead the "witness". He did not know the item I was looking for, but described it in general terms without prompting. At the time of the interview, he was not aware of TIGHAR or the Earhart search. If he is trustworthy, and I have no reason to doubt him, then he did see an old aircraft radial engine on Kanton just as Bruce described it. I did record the interview, and I think I sent a copy of the transcript to you (Ric). Its been a long time and I don't remember all the details at the moment, but there is no doubt of Bruce's story, or that there was an old radial engine at the maintenance shack on Kanton. Other research indicated the most likely location where the engine was found. Don J. ************************************************************************** From Ric I must be losing it. I have no recollection this. Who was this guy? What other research indicated the most likely location where the engine was found? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 11:31:07 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Canton pilot search Don Jordan says: <> Whew! News to me, too! Since I have nothing but respect for Bruce, I'd be delighted to see his account confirmed, whether we ever find the engine or not. ************************************************************************** From Bruce Yoho Boy!! Don I sure would like to hear the answers to Ric's questions. Bruce ************************************************************************* From Don Jordan I provided a full transcript of the interview to you and other interested parties at the time. I think Kenton Spading was one. I don't think it would be appropriate to mention the guy's name on the forum. If you need a refresher, I'd be happy to provide it by personal email. I made an audio recording of the interview and have it around here somewhere, but the short of it from memory is as follows: The pilots I found remembered Bruce Yoho and the engine. He had not talked to Bruce since leaving the island in the early seventies. He was a chief pilot and still had his log book from that time period. The log book indicated he had flown well over 300 hours delivering cargo and personnel to the various islands in the Phoenix Group. He said he flew almost daily and remembered the General Inspection Bruce spoke of. The vast majority of the flights were to Enderbury, Sydney and Phoenix Islands. There were no entries in his log book that indicated he ever went to Gardner Island, and he was not aware of any other pilots going that far south. After he told me about the engine, it became clear that he was not the pilot who airlifted it back to Kanton. He had no memory of doing such a thing, and his log book made no mention of such an event. With his knowledge of the helicopters used and the region involved, he felt it would have been too risky to try and left something all the way back to Kanton from Gardner. There was no helicopter fuel on Gardner and he was fairly certain the chopper would run out of fuel before making it back. Especially if it had to fly slower with a sling load. Because of that, he was certain the engine was found of one of the above mentioned island, and not on Gardner. As far as I'm concerned, Bruce's engine story is true as he tells it. I found a second pilot, but have not been able to interview him because he now lives in Mexico. The major drawback I have with the engine being from the Electra, is that the islands mentioned were flown over and searched by pilots from the Colorado around July 9, 1937. They did not report any aircraft wreckage on any of the beaches. Because of that, I feel the engine was deposited on the reef sometime after July 9th. Maybe days, weeks or even years later. It could even have been wartime wreckage. But I feel the evidence is fairly conclusive about a radial engine being found on one of those three islands. I've always felt that the story needed more research. I've always wanted to know just how well the islands were searched by the Colorado aircrews. That engine did not fall out of the sky by itself. Most likely there is aircraft wreckage not far away. However, it is possible the engine was dumped on the reef by a boat and used for mooring lines. That's about all I can remember at the moment. Maybe Kenton remembers more. I think there were four or five of us working on the Kanton Engine project at the time, and he was one. Don J. *************************************************************************** From Ric Your description sounds very much like Kenton Spading's Oct. 9, 1999 report on his interview with Tom Lawrence who was the chief pilot for Global (the helicopter contractor at Canton). Lawrence told Kenton that he had "absolutely no recollection of Bruce's engine." That's the last thing I have on the attempt to find corroboration. LTM, Ric *************************************************************************** From John Webber For what it is worth I can confirm that Bruce did indeed find an old radial engine while on Kanton. I was stationed there at the time as a Sgt in the Air Force. I don't know where it came from other than it was flown in from an outer island by a Global helicopter. I saw it near the flight line not far from what we called the terminal building and weather station. I don't know what happened to it but remember hearing that it was moved to a dump area at the end of the runway before a British official was due to arrive. John Webber #2343 *************************************************************************** From Ric Excellent. Have you mentioned this to us before John? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:12:52 EDT From: Subject: Re: Forum during expedition I recall some discussion about a date in August (maybe today, the 15th) that involved the publishing of "Amelia Earhart's Shoe...". Can anyone tell me if this is correct, if the book is out, where I can get it most quickly, and if it is being reviewed or otherwise discussed. Also, while Ric et al. are away, (presumably with some of the authors?) will there still be some authors / experts on this topic who are available to discuss any questions pertaining to the book? LTM (Who always has a good book to discuss) *************************************************************************** From Ric The book is now available and featured on the publisher's home page at www.altamirapress.com Tom and Kar Burns will be on the expedition but Kenton Spading and Randy Jacobson will be home and on the forum. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:54:46 EDT From: Doug Brutlag Subject: Niku IIII video? By the way Ric; Do your plans include producing a video of the expedition that those of us who can only be with you in spirit & email, could purchase to join in the fun and pay some of the bills? Doug Brutlag #2335 *************************************************************************** From Ric Believe it or not, at one week prior to departure, media participation in the expedition has not been finalized. (Not my job, man.) But I can assure you that we'll be shooting our own video to document the work. What we end up doing with it will depend on a lot of factors that are, at the moment, still unknown. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:58:31 EDT From: Mimi Demore Subject: Grid map How do we get a poster of Niku IIII? I would like to track the progress of the expedition. Good luck all on your trip! *************************************************************************** From Ric Go to http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/NikuVI/gridmapset.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:59:32 EDT From: Ron Bright Subject: First Lady of Aviation For those interested in just plain biographical information of Amelia here is an excerpt of an interview of Amelia by two St Paul Minnesota high school boys, James Lawrence and James Hevener, circa early 1937, that appears in the current St Paul Academy school calender. Written in 1937, it sheds a contemporaneous light on the Earhart "persona". Lawrence and Hevener went to the Curtis Hotel, St.Paul, Minn. to interview Amelia in a school project to interview celebrities in town. Arriving at Earhart's room, a reporter led them to Earhart, who was "telling someone on the phone that she preferred being called Miss Earhart rather than Mrs. Putnam. They listened as the reporter interviewed Earhart and they also asked questions. Their description: "Tall,slender almost to the point of emaciation, with her windblown hair and her slow, wide smile, Miss Earhart answered her questioners with such charm of manner, humor and intellligence that we could easily see why she is regarded by all as one of the foremost personalities as well as one the the greatest fliers of today..." Miss Earhart, they said, feels " that her flights are in part a vindication of womanhood, a demonstration that women are the equals of men in any vocation they may choose to enter." The young highschoolers concluded that they had seldom," if ever, met a more powerful or a more charming personality... and with her example in mind rash would be the man who denied that women were not equal to men in every respect". All this written in 1937 by two young men. What with her disappearance in July 1937, I'm sure they will never forget that interview. LTM, Ron Bright ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:02:33 EDT From: Jim Pearson Subject: Re; Good luck Ric! Good luck ! and good hunting Ric ! Bring back the "smoking gun" this trip and keep Nauticos and company tied up in port! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:04:48 EDT From: Lawrence Glazer Subject: Go get 'em, TIGHAR This is just to thank you for setting and enforcing high standards in the research - both field and archival - as well as for the incredible patience and restraint I've observed in your replies on countless occasions. Whoever reads the postings on this forum regularly, no matter how much they already know about how many subjects, can be assured of learning something worthwhile. Take $25 from my credit card for a sector map, and best wishes for a safe and productive expedition. Lawrence Glazer #2424 **************************************************************************** From Ric Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:32:36 EDT From: Shirley Subject: Re: Forum during expedition To Ric et al. on NikuIIII expedition. May you have a most safe and AND successful trip. I, for one, will wait eagerly each day for the report and follow the information on the grid map. I definitely wish you all the luck in the world. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:04:29 EDT From: Kenton Spading Subject: Canton Engine Ric mentioned that a mechanic remembered an old engine sitting outside of a shed. Don J. followed up by saying he spoke to a guy who also saw the engine. Althought interesting....this is not (as Ric suggested) the independent information that we need. What makes Bruce Y's engine story interesting, and worth pursuing, is that he says he slung an engine back from an outer island. We need someone who remembers the actual engine recovery operation. Someone who remembers seeing an engine sitting on Canton is not in itself unusual. There were probably lots of old engines on Canton from the war years. Perhaps the engine was found on Canton and brought to the shed? It is not worth 100's of thousands of dollars to look for an engine that (in this case) 3 witnesses say they saw sitting by a shed on Canton. It would be worth pursuing an engine that independent witnesses testify was slung to Canton by a helicopter. I have interviewed a number of people who served on Canton during the Bruce years. So far..no luck. Don....have you had any luck contacting the helo pilot who lives in Mexico? LTM Kenton Spading ****************************************************************************** From Ric Strictly speaking, a helicopter pilot who says he remembers slinging an engine from somewhere to Canton would still be just an anecdotal account - and one that only came forward after a great deal of talk about what we hope someone will remember. What we need is a logbook, a photo, a personal jurnal or diary, a letter home - some kind of contemporaneous hard evidence that the event occurred. ****************************************************************************** From Chris Kennedy Playing devil's advocate, something I find really disturbing about this entire Canton Engine matter is that it appears that it is accurate, yet no one associated with the recovery of the engine can remember ANYTHING about the island from which it was recovered (Niku or otherwise). Apparently, a group of adult servicemen in a low flying helicopter saw an engine on a reef and nothing else---no lagoon, no shipwreck, no general shape of an island that would tend to indicate it was Niku or any other island. Nothing. I think all of us can reflect back upon childhood memories of places and can remember some general details of our surroundings, even if the realities are very different from the recollections. There is at least a memory. Yet, here, with this engine, people were adults at the time the engine was recovered, yet they appear to have seen it and absolutely nothing else, in the most extreme form of total isolation from its surrounding environment. Having been to Niku, I can say that certain things do stand out---the shipwreck, the lagoon, in particular. Flying low over the island in a helicopter should just make all these stand out the more, especially if this engine was located anywhere near the shipwreck, which would've have been more complete at the time the engine was found. Therefore, since no one remembers anything about the island, I can only surmise that the engine was not found on Niku. Any other thoughts? Perhaps, Ric, this engine is somehow related to that propeller that was found on another island awhile back. I do not remember the island on which it was located (Enderbury??), but it was obvious the prop could not have been from the Electra. --Chris Kennedy ****************************************************************************** From Ric You're operating at the disadvantage of not being familair with the facts of the case. There is only one person, so far, who rememebers the recovery of an engine. He does remember a lagoon and he does remember that the engine was on thereef off the west end of an island. He also remembers that there were two helicopters on the mission - something they did only when going to the outer islands. He does not remember the shipwreck but in 1971 it did not look much more like a ship than it does today (we have photos taken in 1975). Disqualifying an anecdote because a person does not remember something that we decide he should remember is dangerous. When I interviewed the commanding officer of the Loran station he swore that there was no shipwreck at Gardner and that the island sand was black. Whatever engine Bruce Yoho is remembering it's probably not from WWII crash at Sydney Island. That C-47 only had two engines and they were both sitting on land in 1971 - as photographed by one of Bruces friends. ****************************************************************************** From Don Jordan Ric. . . I can't believe you don't remember this! In fact, we were upset with you for calling the pilot on the phone and inviting him to join TIGHAR! I wanted to keep the source as clean and uncluttered as possible. The pilot was not Tom Lawrence! Again, I would prefer to not put the name on the forum, but I'll provide all information to you by private email, if you want, so you can confirm it to the forum. This all happened about three or four years ago, and was all over the forum as I recall. Maybe the forum archives from about three years ago would turn up the discussion. Kenton and a guy named Forest (don't remember his full name) from Las Vegas, and I were all working on the project. It was decided that it was too expensive to dig up the engine for first hand confirmation, so the whole project was dropped. It was felt that the hard cold steel (aluminum) of the engine was the only thing that could prove Bruce's story. So we stopped talking to people who remember seeing it, and tried to come up with ways to salvage it. Soon everybody lost interest and some even got disgusted with the way the project was going, so they dropped out. I haven't talked with Forest for several years now, but my last communication with Kenton Spading on the subject was on September 27, 2000. I even found a mechanic who was on Kanton with Bruce, but I don't remember whether he was aware of the engine or not. I'm doing this from memory and don't quite remember what he had to say. I think he was looking for some photos of the maintenance area or something in the hopes the engine just might appear in the background. I can't remember the mechanic's name right now, and I don't remember the name of the second pilot I found in Mexico. Maybe Bruce can refresh my memory. Don J. ****************************************************************************** From Ric You're talking about Forest Blair, the former CO at Canton. From Kenton Spading's posting above it's clear that he is not aware that you located the pilot in Mexico. Anybody else remember this? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:05:46 EDT From: John Webber Subject: The Canton Engine No, I hadn't mentioned anything about the Canton engine on the forum before. I assumed Bruce's story had been verified. I don't know where the engine came from. It's possible that it was found on the other end of Canton where the old Pan Am hotel was located. There was no activity in the area and there would have been no other means to move it off the reef than by helicopter. I spent a couple of weeks on Enderbury and had flown around the island. Don't recall seeing anything there on the reef and I have aerial photos which don't show anything. I don't believe any helicopters ever flew to Gardner. I was told that Hull was as far south as they could fly. I'm sure there are others out there that can add to what I know. If you are meeting the Nai'i in Apia and have time, I would question the natives. There were several Samoans on Canton from Apia and Pago Pago during this time. I would almost bet that you can easily find someone there that was on Canton during this time and also at the time whenSAMTEC buried everything and left. I intend to make a trip to Apia next year in hopes of finding old friends. I'll definitely find out what I can. John Webber ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:06:38 EDT From: Angus Murray Subject: Re: Canton pilot search It would be most interesting to get a blow-by blow account of Bruce's recovery of the engine for the benefit of the forum as I have only seen abridged accounts. Such factors as the purpose of the mission, time of day, approximate flying time to Canton, topography of the island, name of the pilot if known, distance from shore, depth of water, local vegetation (bush or coconut trees etc), any discussions on fuel requirements and as much other detail as possible would be most useful. Any chance Bruce? Regards Angus Murray ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:07:50 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: NIKU grid map Just got mine. Wow, what a pix!! Great job, Pat. You too, Ric. For future reference, the brownish block in the upper center of grid 9WB -- is that the Norwich City? LTM, who pines for long ocean voyages Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ************************************************************************* From Ric Yup. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:18:53 EDT From: Ric Subject: NPR interview This morning National Public Radio's "Morning Edition" aired an interview I did with host Alex Chadwick. You can hear it at http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=08/17/2001&PrgID=3 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:21:46 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: Canton pilot search Poor ole Bruce has answered those questions so many times, he probably doesn't want to be bothered with it anymore. He answered everything to the best of his ability, and even made a trip to the island with TIGHAR several years ago. Can you imagine how he felt when he walked to the very spot where he dumped that engine, and found the whole damn place was covered over with coral rubble. I think if it were me, I would have crawled under a rock somewhere! With all the research I did on the subject, there are two things I'm fairly sure of: Bruce did find an old engine and brought it back to Kanton, and it didn't come from Gardner! I'm kinda glad to see the forum light a fire under that kettle of fish again. I always did think it was worth pursuing. If for no other reason than to disqualify it as the Earhart engine. Don J. **************************************************************************** From Tom King I hope Bruce will provide such an account, but Forum readers may also be interested in the chapter on the Canton Engine Search (called "Kanton in the Rain") in "Amelia Earhart's Shoe," available at a 15% discount from www.altamirapress.com. I'm also happy to say that the ceremonial entrenching tool given me by Bruce on the occasion of the Canton Search is now in Pago Pago, going with us to Niku to bring, we hope, better fortune than it did on Kanton. Couldn't resist. Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:28:33 EDT From: Angus Murray Subject: Re: Niku IIII Ric, If you get cold feet, let me know. Best of luck Angus Murray *********************************************************************** From Ric All of us Scots know that the only way to deal with cold feet is to keep moving. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:45:25 EDT From: Chris Subject: Re: NPR interview Is there any reason for us to e-mail major news organizations like Fox or CNN for more publicity? Or maybe you don't want publicity at this juncture? (about your upcoming trip). Could it help you in some way? I wish you all the very best and happy hunting! Chris in Petaluma, Ca. *************************************************************************** From Ric We really didn't go looking for publicity about this trip. Word got out about the satellite image and the media sort of went nuts (it has been a slowww news summer). At this point I'm concerned that all the hype has created unrealistic expectations and I've been spending most of my time with the press trying to inject some reality into the story. Dealing with the media eats up tremendous amounts of time. The phone rings and some reporter expects you to drop whatever you're doing and spend the next 45 minutes explaining to him/her why you think Amelia Earhart ended up on this island and why she is still so popular after all these years, etc., etc. You can't be rude and you try to help them get the story straight, but meanwhile you don't get what you had hoped to get done. With time so short and many preparations still to finalize I'm really trying to limit my time with the press to high-end national media (like NPR). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:46:51 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: ALL THE BEST ! All the best and good hunting ! I'll be following your expedition on the grid map ! Herman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:05:44 EDT From: Kelly Maddox Subject: Explosive archaeology Just a thought about digging for the Canton engine... Have you considered using a post hole digger and some well placed dynamite? It should leave a large crater, surrounded by loosened soil that could be easily removed with a few shovels. Might be a little easier to get these items to Canton than a bulldozer. At this point, I wouldn't think the explosives would damage the remains of the block beyond identification. I'm not an explosives expert, but I've watched my Grandfather blast out a few tree stumps, and read stories where G.I.s dug their foxholes in the frozen Belgian soil by digging a small hole, and then tossing in a grenade... A dedicated lurker, Kelly Maddox **************************************************************************** From Ric Explosive archaeology. Interesting concept. I think we'll pass. Your grandfather sounds like my grandfather. He once tried to remove a stump in back of the house (circa 1935) with dynamite but wasn't sure how much to use. He thought maybe two sticks would be about right (a quarter stick would have been apprpriate). The stump came out of the ground all right and was last seen in flight over the trees and headed up the street. Grampa set off after it, judging the trajectory would bring it down somewhere near old Mrs. Johnson's place, but when he got there the stump was not in evidence. There was, however, a hole where the upstairs bathroom window used to be. Grampa knocked hard on the door (the old lady was hard of hearing) and when Mrs. Johnson appeared he asked if she had heard anything unusual. She allowed as how there had been a noise upstairs a while back that she had attributed to one of the cats. Grampa suggested that they should maybe go look. It was reportedly quite job to get the stump out of the tub and Grampa, of course, repaired the wall and replaced the window. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:10:12 EDT From: Terry Ann Linley Subject: Re: Niku IIII video? Before Niku IIIIP in 1999, many of us contributed $100 or more to the effort with the assurance we would receive a video of that expedition. Unfortunately, the tapes were lost in transit, and that video could not be made. Is there any chance of getting a video of THIS expedition in place of the Niku IIIIP video? LTM, Terry Ann Linley (#0628) **************************************************************************** From Ric I felt really bad about that and I'm hesitiant to make any guarantees about a video of this trip but, as we've said before, anyone who donated $100 for a Niku IIIIP video can get an 8th edition or any other equivalent premium. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:37:07 EDT From: Charlie Sivert Subject: Grid Map "Hit" my credit card for another $50. Use $25. for a grid map and throw the other $25. into the NIKU IIII pot. Best of luck on the trip, and I hope that all of the members escape any mis- fortune. Charlie Sivert, 0269E ************************************************************************ From Ric Thanks Charlie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:24:32 EDT From: Mike E. Subject: Re: NPR interview Did anyone else detect a note of condescending skepticism on the part of the NPR host? Let's hope Ric can bring back something that'll clean the guy's clock! (And a few others, incidentally....) 73 Mike E. **************************************************************************** From Ric You're a perceptive man Michael. The unedited interview had a definite "edge" to it. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:33:26 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Niku IIII > From Ric > > All of us Scots know that the only way to deal with cold feet is to keep > moving. ... And to occasionally lubricate ones joints (from the inside) with the smoky, warming nectar of the gods... Wishes for good luck, Godspeed, and our prayers for safety and success go with you! ltm jon *************************************************************************** From Ric And drunk to an ancient toast: Here's tae us! Wha's like us? Damn few - and they're a' d'ed! Translation for Englishmen and other foreigners: Here's to us! Who's like us? Damn few - and they're all dead! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:03:23 EDT From: Terry Ann Linley Subject: Re: Niku IIII video? I understand that you cannot guarantee a video of the Niku IIII expedition, in place of the video for Niku IIIIP. I imagine there were many TIGHARites (myself included) who not only donated $100 to the IIIIP effort, but ALSO purchased an advance copy of the 8th Edition. Can you list the 'equivalent premiums' from which we may choose, in place of the IIIIP video? Thanks, cuz. On another note, I and all your other Gillespie relations wish you great success on this expedition. Safe travels!! Terry Ann Linley (#0628) **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks cuz. Well, let's see. A $100 credit could get you the suitable-for-framing satellite image or two volumes of the TIGHAR Tracks Retrospective or five NIKU IIII T-shirts or three TIGHAR ballcaps, ..... a veritable shopping spree. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:10:20 EDT From: Kenton Spading Subject: Canton Pilot Ric wrote: >You're talking about Forest Blair, the former CO at Canton. From Kenton >Spading's posting above it's clear that he is not aware that you located the >pilot in Mexico. Anybody else remember this? After Don contacted the pilot in Mexico (a year or so ago) he called me right away. I have known about the contact for a long time. At the time, the guy did not have time to talk to Don. I was questioning Don as to weather or not he had contacted the guy since then. John W....would you mind sending me your personal email. I would like to followup on this with you off-forum. LTM Kenton Spading ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:00:39 EDT From: Terry Ann Linley Subject: Re: Niku IIII video? Thanks for the shopping spree! Let's see....I think FIVE of the Niku IIII shirts would be great, and will help spread the TIGHAR news better than any of the other premiums! We'll wear them with pride. Ter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:07:59 EDT From: Dave Porter Subject: hope it's not too late for a grid map Gee, condescending skepticism from NPR...who'da thunk it? More to the point, the end of August kind of snuck up on me. Hope it isn't too late to order a Niku Grid Map. I believe you already have my credit card info. Let me add my best wishes for a safe and successful expedition to the pile of same you've accumulated already. From the "I know it's a long shot, but..." department: If things ever reach a point where Kiribati establishes a military presence on the island, (say, to secure the site while you're putting a recovery mission together) I'd be happy to volunteer as a US liaison to their mission. LTM, who sincerely hopes that the Niku Tighars have better luck than the Detroit Tigers, (this comment being marginally on topic since AE and the city of Detroit share a birthday) Dave Porter, 2288 **************************************************************************** From Ric No problem Dave. We'll send your map right out. Before Kiribati can establish a military presence on the island they'll need to establish a military. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:09:54 EDT From: Janet Powell Subject: Niku IIII Not long now then! - Ooooh - it's so exciting!!! The best of British to you all... Go get 'em Tighars...! Janet Powell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:16:50 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Blasting stumps Ric said: " . . . It was reportedly quite job to get the stump out of the tub . . . " And that is where the term "splash down " was coined, right? Good hunting on Niku; and don't forget your Oreos. LTM, who enjoys watered down humor Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:02:45 EDT From: Subject: Re Canton pilot in Mexico I live in Veracruz, Mexico, and was born and lived in Mexico city. any calls or contacting i could do. ? i will be more than happy to give it a try. To the Niku IIII personalities, please, ...... safety first. the saying our marine corps uses in spanish for God speed is "buena mar" buena mar to you all, my respect and admiration always. ************************************************************************** From Ric My high school Spanish translates "buena mar" as "good seas". You have to have been on the 1997 expedition to understand how good that sounds. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:09:22 EDT From: Mike E. Subject: Kiribati military >Before Kiribati can establish a military presence on the island they'll >need to establish a military. Hey, here's an idea for which there is precedent.... Ric, why don't you follow in the footsteps of Claire L. Chennault, and accept a commission as the first General Officer of the Kiribati Air Force? We could truly become the Flying TIGHARS. 73 Mike E. **************************************************************************** From Ric Great concept - but I wonder if we'd be accused of being "mercenary." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:29:45 EDT From: Elizabeth L. Subject: High Flight relation? Are you by any change related to Pilot John Gillespie Magee Jr? As you probably already know he is the poet of High Flying. I was just wondering. Thank you Elizabeth L. **************************************************************************** From Ric That would be very flattering but I honestly don't know, except to say that all of us Gillespies go back to Gilla Espaic, Bishop of Limerick in 1106 (those were the good old days in the Celtic church before celibacy). The Scottish line of the family traces to Gilliechattan Mor Gillespick who came over to Lochaber in the Western Highlands in 1215. My particular line moved back to Ireland (County Cavan) from Scotland in the mid-1600s as part of the Protestant "plantation" of Northen Irleand under King James VI & I. As I understand it, John Gillespie Magee Jr. had Irish connections but I don't know how closely we might be related. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:34:41 EDT From: Mike E. Subject: Good job this morning Hey Ric, great job this morning on The Early Show... I was about to turn off the TV before going to work, and realized what it was... Whooooaaaaa! Made me a little late, but what the heck. Best of luck on the trip and may Nei Manganibuka be gracious unto you! 73 Mike E. ************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Mike. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:11:13 EDT From: Stijn de Jong Subject: Buena Mar Good seas. That says it all. Best of luck out there, gentlemen. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:40:41 EDT From: Tom Van Hare Subject: Re: High Flight Relation? Elizabeth L. wrote: > Are you by any means related to Pilot John Gillespie Magee Jr.? For those who don't know the RCAF Pilot Officer John Gillesipe G. Magee Jr., I am sure you know his famous poem, which starts with these words: "Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings...." At Historic Wings, we did a short feature story about him, and included the full text of the poem. The full history of how he came to write it, how he died, and of his service in the RCAF is also compiled there: http://www.historicwings.com/features98/highflight/ Finally, Ric, my hat is off to you and the team for putting together yet another venture (or perhaps adventure, time will tell) in search of the solution to one of aviation's great mysteries. Your dedication to science, the process, and truth are truly inspiring. You don't need to made First General of Kiribati to deserve the respect of the entire community of aviators, historians, and others who are interested in the past. Thomas Van Hare ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:41:21 EDT From: Kenton Spading Subject: Canton Pilot in Mexico Someone on the Forum wrote: "I live in Veracruz, Mexico, and was born and lived in Mexico city. any calls or contacting i could do. ?" Thank you for the offer. Please send me your email address. LTM Kenton S. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 20:57:02 EDT From: MWH Subject: Philly Daily News coverage Did anyone else see the great 2 page article on Ric and the expedition in the Philly Daily News? Nice piece! **************************************************** Yeah, we picked it up at the airport as Ric was leaving. Very nice indeed! Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 20:57:45 EDT From: Malcolm Andrews Subject: Re: John Gillespie Magee John Gillespie Magee Jnr. Would he be the father of Pat Magee who takes tourists like me (when I was on a press trip to Hawaii) on joy flights out of Honolulu in a sea plane that was used in the filming of Fantasy Island, The Phantom and others? He said his dad's pilot's licence was signed by Orville Wright. Malcolm Andrews # 2409 ****************************************************** Does anyone know? Jim Tierney? P ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:51:30 EDT From: George Mershon Subject: Daily News Story Link for Ric's "Philadelphia Daily News" story: http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily_news/2001/08/23/local/LOST23C.htm Good Luck, George Mershon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:53:17 EDT From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Expedition shortfall I have been thinking about the fact that TIGHAR is still about $92,000 short of the funds needed for the Niku IIII expedition. Most Americans are receiving a tax rebate of several hundred dollars about now. Why don't we all pledge and send TIGHAR a tax deductable donation of 10% or more of our refund amount? If a couple of thousand TIGHARs would do that the shortfall would be made up. Toward that goal I am sending a check for $60 as my tax refund donation. I think we could all feel that we, individually and collectively, have a real share in the work that will soon be done by the TIGHAR team on Nikumaroro if we all supported the funding of the operation in this way. On the wall in my computer room I have a drawing of an old timer sitting at the bar with a mug of beer in his hand. His eyes are rolled upward in a thoughtful moment and he is saying, "I spent most of my money on Beer and women and the rest I just wasted". Here is a chance to waste a little money for a good cause and it is probably a lot less then an evening out with a lady or man friend having a beer. Dick Pingrey 908C ************************************************************ Many, many thanks, Dick. Remember that anything you send is tax-deductible, giving you a double bang for your buck. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:14:12 EDT From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Expedition shortfall Okay, Dick, you've done it now... Pat, you've got my card number, hit me for a hundred bucks. ltm, jon 2266 Dick Pingrey wrote: > I have been thinking about the fact that TIGHAR is still about $92,000 short > of the funds needed for the Niku IIII expedition. Most Americans are > receiving a tax rebate of several hundred dollars about now. Why don't we > all pledge and send TIGHAR a tax deductable donation of 10% or more of our > refund amount? If a couple of thousand TIGHARs would do that the shortfall > would be made up. Toward that goal I am sending a check for $60 as my tax > refund donation. I think we could all feel that we, individually and > collectively, have a real share in the work that will soon be done by the > TIGHAR team on Nikumaroro if we all supported the funding of the operation in > this way. > > On the wall in my computer room I have a drawing of an old timer > sitting at the bar with a mug of beer in his hand. His eyes are rolled > upward in a thoughtful moment and he is saying, "I spent most of my money on > Beer and women and the rest I just wasted". Here is a chance to waste a > little money for a good cause and it is probably a lot less then an evening > out with a lady or man friend having a beer. > > Dick Pingrey 908C ************************************************************* OK, that makes $91,840 to go..... seriously, thanks a lot. Very often the month or two immediately following an expedition are very very tough, and if we can keep the money coming in this month it will be a big help. If nothing else, we will have a fuel and food bill to pay by the end of October that will not be small... probably in the neighborhood of $25,000, what with the price of diesel going through the roof this year. For those who want something for their money, we have: Cool Niku IIII t-shirts Cool Earhart Project t-shirts Cool Noonan Project t-shirts 8x10 satellite pics and the ever-popular poster-sized grid map of Nikumaroro. Also, the first daily report went up on our website about, oh, 20 minutes ago. http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Expeditions/NikuIIII/NikuIIIIdailies.html While you're there take a look at the background material I've assembled, there's a whole bunch of interesting stuff. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:16:31 EDT From: Suzanne Astorino Subject: Re: John Gillespie Magee, Jr. Malcolm Andrews wrote: >John Gillespie Magee Jnr. Would he be the father of Pat Magee who takes >tourists like me (when I was on a press trip to Hawaii) on joy flights out >of Honolulu in a sea plane that was used in the filming of Fantasy Island, >The Phantom and others? He said his dad's pilot's licence was signed by >Orville Wright. >Malcolm Andrews # 2409 It's very doubtful, as John Gillespie Magee Jr. died at the age of 19. Brief bio from: http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/prewwii/jgm.htm High Flight was composed by Pilot Officer John Gillespie Magee, Jr., an American serving with the Royal Canadian Air Force. He was born in Shanghai, China in 1922, the son of missionary parents, Reverend and Mrs. John Gillespie Magee; his father was an American and his mother was originally a British citizen. He came to the U.S. in 1939 and earned a scholarship to Yale, but in September 1940 he enlisted in the RCAF and was graduated as a pilot. He was sent to England for combat duty in July 1941. In August or September 1941, Pilot Officer Magee composed High Flight and sent a copy to his parents. Several months later, on December 11, 1941 his Spitfire collided with another plane over England and Magee, only 19 years of age, crashed to his death. His remains are buried in the churchyard cemetery at Scopwick, Lincolnshire. Hope that helps! Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:50:38 EDT From: Tim Smith Subject: Re: Expedition shortfall Sorry, I don't have any "spare" money right now, but I won't forget TIGHAR when I'm more flush. I do, however, want to say thanks for the first daily report. Very interesting and fun to read. I hope temporarily misplacing the Kiribati official is the biggest mishap on the expedition. LTM (who never misplaces anything) Tim Smith 1142 CE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:44:57 EDT From: Jackie Tharp Subject: Donations I wanna thank you for all that you do for us, and for your fast deliveries when we order things... You're such a nice person too. You have my credit card numbers, and I'd like to donate $100. to the project. I'm very, very involved in historic preservation of documents, photo's,buildings, statues, and now aircraft, and can't think of a better cause than these. Preserving our past will insure our future... Thanx again. Jackie Tharp #2440 ******************************************************** Thanks so much, Jackie. I tell you, I try to get things out the door immediately because if not, the order tends to get buried and *never* goes out . P ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:14:27 EDT From: Pat Subject: Daily reports and other business OK, the daily report page (http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Expeditions/NikuIIII/NikuIIIIdailies.html) is now all fixed. I dunno what I did, but it sure was funky. Anyway, it's readable now. And to all those whom I told that stuff would go out in today's mail: I lied. It's taken me all morning to fix the web page and now I've missed the mail. So everything will go out tomorrow. The grid maps go out Priority Mail so you'll still get it in time to start following the teams on the island. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:19:44 EDT From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: Daily reports Nice work on the daily news, Pat! Much appreciated. Marty #2359 *************************************************************** Glad to be of service. Just got off the phone with Ric; I'll be writing that up this evening and posting it either this evening or tomorrow morning first thing. One funny thing... In the past there's always been a pool aboard ship to award something insignificant but of great emotional meaning (like a beer) to whoever came closest to predicting the time of first sighting of the island. Well, with half the team having GPS units there's no point--- anyone can go up on the bridge, or out on deck, power up and bingo, there's the track, the waypoints, the time expired, the time left.... Oh well, another tradition falls to the march of technology. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:16:51 EDT From: Pat Subject: New news newly up I just posted up the new daily report. Please check it out (http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Expeditions/NikuIIII/NikuIIIIdailies.html) because my !#$@%!@^ AOL browser, nor Netscape neither, will connect with the server tonight... which may be a server problem or may be an AOL problem (oh, how unusual). One of these days I gotta get a real ISP. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:49:10 EDT From: Shirley Walter Subject: Re: Donations You have my credit card # too - so hit me up for 100.00 and I challenge all armchair TIGHARS to match it. Also, any of you lurkers out there, who may be following the adventures of this forum, I challenge you, too. Even if you can't afford a larger amount, ANY amount, I'm sure would be welcomed. Shirley 2299 ********************************************************** Thanks, Shirley. And yes, *any* amount is welcome, and what is most welcome of all is new members who will support TIGHAR's work for years to come. Remember, it's tax-deductible and you get a cool newsletter and a secret decoder ring. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:55:13 EDT From: Pat Subject: Re: new news As many of you pointed out, I left the "H" out of TIGHAR when I posted the URL... sorry. Here is the *real* address: http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Expeditions/NikuIIII/NikuIIIIdailies.html Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:02:57 EDT From: Lee Kruczkowski Subject: Weather during the expedition This is for anyone who wants to follow the weather on Canton while the group is there.... go to : Weather.Yahoo.com and enter in Canton island. Great weather forecasts and satellite pictures. Hope you enjoy it. LTM & F Lee *********************************************************** Thanks, Lee. Kanton is the closest "place" to Niku and offers at least some glimpse of the weather patterns in the area. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:03:45 EDT From: Pat Subject: Report up I have just posted up the report for today (tomorrow? yesterday?). There are one or two typos but what the heck, it reads in Netscape and in Explorer. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:02:46 EDT From: Don Iwanski Subject: Time Zones What's the exact time zone differnce from the East Coast to Niku? ******************************************************************** OK, let's see if I can get this right. Ric calls me every day at 1 p.m. When he calls me, it is 6 a.m. the next morning his time. That makes it... 17 hours? Is that right? They are using GMT minus 11, I think. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:03:38 EDT From: Mike van Holsbeck Subject: AOL coverage of Niku IIII I can't get the link to work but yesterday AOL ran a story of the trip. It is only avail for those of you with AOL. The link wont come across to my browser, but In AOL's Welcome screen, click news, then search, and search for Amelia Earhart. Nice little story for those of you that are interested. Mike (Soon to be member) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:04:38 EDT From: Janice Brown Subject: Re: Donations I just mailed you (TIGHAR) a $100 check. I'm looking forward to receiving the secret decoder ring :) Janice Brown #2364 ********************************************************* One secret decoder ring, coming up. :-) Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:08:28 EDT From: Roger Smith Subject: Anchoring at Niku I read where there is no anchorage off Nikumaroro as it's too deep past the reef. How does the boat keep from drifting into the coral reef if they can't put down an anchor? ****************************************************************** During the day, Nai'a stays underway, steaming back and forth in the neighborhood of the channel or, if there are divers in the water, back and forth within launch-reach of the divers. At night they sail out about ten miles, set engines to idle, and drift, steaming back up on the island before dawn. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:10:31 EDT From: Roger Smith Subject: Re: Donations I hear you guys are a little short. If you still have my credit card info, hit it for $100. If you don't have my card number, let me know. **************************************************************** We do have it and we do appreciate it, Roger. Many thanks. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:13:18 EDT From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: time zones >From Pat: > > OK, let's see if I can get this right. Ric calls me every day at 1 p.m. When > he calls me, it is 6 a.m. the next morning his time. That makes it... 17 > hours? Is that right? They are using GMT minus 11, I think. They're across the date line, I think. According to the World Time Server, Kiribati/Phoenix Islands is 1300 + UTC. Here in Buffalo, on Daylight Savings, it's -400 + UTC. That suggests a 17-hour difference, just as Pat calculated. Noon, Thursday, August 30, in Buffalo, is 5 AM, Friday, August 31, on Nikumaroro. (No hard feelings if you prove me wrong. This date/time stuff is perplexing.) Marty ************************************************************* sounds good to me. P ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:15:06 EDT From: Andy Shaw Subject: Re: time zones Yes, according to my map the Phoenix Group is on GMT -11. I don't know, however, if this has changed due to the shift in the international date line. LTM, Andy *************************************************** Well, we tend to ignore that. It's hard enough just to figure out who's where without people arbitrarily moving datelines on us. P ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:19:22 EDT From: Claude Stokes Subject: Weather map Here is a website that gives a satalite image of the pacific region of Australia and in the upper right corner is the area of Niku etc. http://www.accuweather.com/adcbin/intsat_index?area=AUST&loop=0&submit3=Get+Map&nav=int&type=ir If this link fails to connect just log on to accuweather.com and then work your way into the australia satalite map,, happy prospecting y'all ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:06:26 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: time zones No, Niku's date is the same as ours...they are not across the dateline from the US. Now for our Aussie and Kiwi forumites, Niku is across the dateline from them! ********************************************************************* Yeah, I guess it just *seems* like the dateline has been crossed because it's tomorrow there when it's today here, but that's just because time marches on, like it's tomorrow EDT while it's still today PDT... all clear? Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:07:58 EDT From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: time zones > From Andy Shaw > > Yes, according to my map the Phoenix Group is on GMT -11. I don't know, > however, if this has changed due to the shift in the international date line. Bingo! Kiribati shifted the date line 600 miles eastward in order to cash in on the new millenium: http://abcnews.go.com/ABC2000/DailyNews/abc2000_991124_SunWars_feature.html Therefore, their time changed from -11 to +13 (a 24-hour shift). [Or so it seems. In the time it's taken me to compose this message, my mind has wavered a dozen times.] LTM, Marty #2359 *************************************************************** I just refuse to even attempt to grapple with this at 9 p.m. All I know is that when Ric calls me I know what time it is there, and what time it is here, and that's all I need to know... truth is beauty, beauty truth........ P ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:08:32 EDT From: Pat Subject: Daily report up Early for once. Let me know of typos, etc. P ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:40:53 EDT From: Roger Smith Subject: Lamb experiment One other question, if I may? The leg of lamb they are leaving out in the elements to see what happens to it. . .will they allow the coconut crabs to get to it? If they do, the leg won't last long. Neither would a person, I'm afraid. Thanks Roger Smith ****************************************************************** That's sort of the point. Check the new update for an explanation of what/why/where the lamb experiment is being done. http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Expeditions/NikuIIII/NikuIIIIdailies.html Pat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:42:56 EDT From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: time zones > From Randy Jacobson > No, Niku's date is the same as ours...they are not across the dateline from > the US. Now for our Aussie and Kiwi forumites, Niku is across the dateline > from them! What you say was true in 1993. It is not true now. There was a change made in the dateline in 1995. From the U.S. Naval Observatory: "The most recent change in the line was in 1995 when Kiribati moved a large segment of it to the east, so that the entire nation would be on the same side of the International Date Line. As with all other changes in the International Date Line, the change was made by a government with local interests. As a result, the line is as far East as 150°, farther east than Honolulu. This does not change where the first sunrise of the next millennium will occur, however. The honor still goes to Antarctica." Here's an outstanding site which shows why many maps and atlases draw a simpler line, ignoring the Kiribati gerrymander; the site also gives a very reasonable social and economic explanation of the change (not just to sell tix to Millenium Island): Here is another excellent map of the Kiribati twist. It also gives a view of how Kiribati stands with respect to New Guinea and Hawaii: If Niku were on the same side of the dateline as we are, Ric's most recent report (free from typos and chock full of tantalizing details) would have a different time stamp: 2001 TIME STAMP: "Dateline: Nikumaroro, 6 a.m. Friday, August 31 local time (1 p.m. Thursday, August 30 EDT)." 1993 TIME STAMP: "Dateline: Nikumaroro, 6 a.m. Thursday, August 30 local time (1 p.m. Thursday, August 30 EDT)." Using the 2001 location of the date line, we count Ric as 17 hours ahead of EDT; with the 1993 date line, we would have said Ric is 7 hours behind EDT. In either case, it's 6 AM out there, but the whole difference of how far ahead he is (or how far behind) EDT is determined by where countries have placed the date line. This is why the expedition is so educational. While following the adventures of the TIGHAR crew, we get a chance to study geography, astronomy, and history! "Where in the world is Nikumaroro?" ;o) Marty #2359 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:44:32 EDT From: Leah Ouzinian Subject: Pogo's "Great Pogini" takes on the Expedition I just found this for today's (Thursday) prediction on pogo.com (in the "Great Pogini" section) ~Leah in Michigan "An expedition to a Pacific Ocean atoll will find wreckage of Amelia Earhart's plane." Cloud patterns indicate that by September 15, 2001, an expedition to the Nikumaroro atoll in the southwest Pacific Ocean will confirm finding the wreckage of Amelia Earhart's plane. What do you think? Agree: The wreckage of Earhart's plane is found No: Wreckage is from another named plane or boat No: Wreckage is found but not identified No: No wreckage of any type is found at the site No: Jimmy Hoffa and Judge Crater are found there ****************************************************************** Well, if Pogo says so it must be true. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:48:57 EDT From: Marty Moleski Subject: Re: time zones >From Pat: > > I just refuse to even attempt to grapple with this at 9 p.m. > > All I know is that when Ric calls me I know what time it is there, and what > time it is here, and that's all I need to know... truth is beauty, beauty > truth........ " ... that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." I'm grappling at 11:22 PM, but I had a nice nap after dinner, and I've tried to understand the Date Line before this, most recently in 1998, when I was on sabbatical in Oxford, debating a friendly mathematician about the right way to understand the function of the line. We had both read the book _Longitude_, which explained why sailors needed a good clock to help them to find out where they are, which, in turn, explains why people worry about the accuracy of Fred's watches and time checks. Here's how my mathematician and I worked out the logic of the need for the dateline: Pat knows it is 1 PM in Delaware. Ric knows it is 6 AM in Niku. They are on the telephone, and both are wearing calibrated watches that work perfectly. They are also ignoring the effect of relativity, which might put Pat a few femtoseconds ahead of Ric because Ric traveled west while Pat got carried east on the surface of the globe, giving her a slightly greater aggregate velocity than Ric for a short period of time. Ric cannot be both ahead of Pat and behind Pat at the same time. 6 AM inNiku is either on the same day (-7 hours from Pat's time) or else it is a day ahead of Pat's (+17 hours from Pat's time). Everything depends on where we decide to start counting the 24 hours that make up today. There is no scientific resolution to the question. Counting days is an arbitrary operation. We can pick any place on the face of the globe to start our count of the hours that make up today. We humans are just assigning names to physical phenomena in this case. And we can make the date line zig-zag as much as we want, because it is just a matter of convenience to us and is a human convention. Nothing happened to Ric physically as he and the TIGHAR team crossed the date line--the date line is a mental construct, not a physical reality. And the truth, beautiful or not, is that the convention changed. Some maps do not reflect the correct location of the date line. It's now 11:49 PM, EDT. I'm not done thinking about it. Just done typing. :o) Thanks again for the daily updates, Pat. They're great! Marty **************************************************************** Having debated the nature of truth, and the nature of logic, it somehow makes sense that now the Forum should debate the nature of time.... The Date Line is one of those things that I use without necessarily spending a lot of time understanding it. Computers and automobiles fall into this category as well. Pretty interesting stuff. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:51:06 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Tracking the TIGHARs Pat: Thanks for the excellent job on translating Ric's conversations into plain English. By providing all of the grid coordinates it makes it pretty easy to follow what is going on and where. But--as usual? -- I think I have taken the TIGHAR tracking to the extreme. For those of you who have the time, energy, tools, and obsession, let me explain how I'm tracking these guys. First I ordered the TIGHAR grid map, which just happens to be the exact size of the clear plastic cover on my desk pad. I've slipped the map under the plastic and am using pieces of stick-on labels to ident each feature/event Ric reports. The labels are placed along the side of the map and, using some old Correct-Type Ribbons (the thin white stick-on stripes used to cover up typos in the old days) I connect the labels with the appropriate grid square. I thought I'd pass along this brainstorm (or brain f**t, if you choose) in case others may want to try it. LTM, who is pleased to not be at Niku Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ************************************************************ That's our Dennis, ever the obsessive-compulsive... Actually it sounds like an excellent idea, but not applicable to me because my desk is always buried under a snowdrift of paper. I'd never see the daggone map. Our is stuck up on the wall. P