Date:         Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:55:37 EDT
From:         B. Conrad
Subject:      Amelia's Flight Jacket

Ric:

By now you are probably getting excited about this trip back to the island! Anyway, I was sitting at work thinking what it would be like to just to follow you guys on your mission back to Niku! With all the imagination I was doing, I kinda of was thinking...did Amelia wear that flight jacket on the day she disappeared. If so, was the jacket made of leather! O.K! Now, would leather deteriote in sand after all these years, Ric! Let's just say that it's buried or hidden from sunlight! Anyway, a question for you to ponder on! Anyway, have a great time and remember to bring us back a wing or two! A little KFC humor. Maybe, you can get KFC involved with this! Hey! A KFC Promotion! If you find one wing of the plane...everybody gets a one piece meal for a certain price and TIGHAR gets a certain percentage of the profits. OR if you bring in the whole plane will throw in an extra roll with your meal! O.K! I'll stop! Anyway, Good Luck and God Bless, Ric!!!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:04:13 EDT
From:         Jim Kelly
Subject:      Funding

Ric:
Checks in the mail [where have I heard that before?]On vacation so its late.
Good luck!
Jim Kelly 2085
Leader, follower, driver, Parker Pen expedition

****************************************************************
From  Ric

Thank Jim.  Although I've been too busy to put up a daily accounting on the forum, pledges and contributions continue to come in on a daily basis.  We've been able to put together the necessary funding for the expedition, but just barely (ain't that always the way?).   The advance sales of the video have been, and continue to be, a BIG help.  Also, be sure to check out the photos of the Electra model on the website and get your order in.  Production is under way.

Your support makes the work possible.  I think it was Churchill who said, "Give us the tools and we will finish the job."

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:08:19 EDT
From:         Dustymiss
Subject:      Re: Macbeth, Shakespeare and Amelia

I said I knew theatre - I did not say I knew English - although one would suspect they should go hand in hand.

It's amazing how alike antidote and anecdote seem at 3:00a.m - (she said with a sheepish grin) - practically synonyms -

Love to mother (who is currently denouncing all knowledge of her daughter)

*****************************************************************
From Ric

I just figured you meant that there were anecdotes about an antidote to the bad luck of quoting the Scottish Play in a theatre.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:27:18 EDT
From:         Ric
Subject:      Until I return...

This will be my last posting to the forum until I return from the Pacific on July 28.  While I'm away Pat will hold the fort, beat back the creditors, and moderate the forum.  (Don't get her riled.  She's a lot tougher than I am.)

I'd like to take this opportunity to say something profound and moving about how grateful the team and I are for the fantastic support of the forum and the TIGHAR membership,  but I've still got to get all this stuff packed in time to make my flight.  In the end, words don't count for much anyway. There have been plenty of words - maybe too many words - about what happened to Amelia.  What is important now is truth, and the truth is not in words. The truth is in the evidence, and that's why we're headed out there.  We wouldn't be going unless you sent us.  All of us on the team are keenly aware that we are going for you, the people who will find Amelia.  And we thank you.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:05:42 EDT
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: Until I return...

Don't forget to let the rough side drag <grin>. And remember that holding true to your principles will make success, whatever you find.

william #2243
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:06:45 EDT
From:         Kabumpo
Subject:      Anecdotes and dozeydotes...

Re: Dustymiss' cure for uttering the name of the Scottish play in a theater....

Anecdotes are fine, but give me an antidote any time.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:11:04 EDT
From:         Saturn
Subject:      AE on TV

From Saturn (well, not really, but that's part of his/her email address)

I just saw a clip on CNN HEADLINE NEWS on the 7 am edition about AE.

As a part of THIS DAY/THIS CENTURY they featured the Pacific leg of her journey.

One thing they did say was that the media attention now hasn't diminished any after all this time.

Hopefully you can post this so others can see it on TV


LTM
ME
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:32:30 EDT
From:         Pat
Subject:      The Earhart Forum

Well, now that Ric's gone off to the wars, it seems no one wants to play.... not a single posting.

Does this mean everyone is simply holding his/her breath for the next four weeks? Is everyone merely busy with family and friends for the Fourth? Or have we become so dependent on the Master as to be paralyzed when he is gone?

Let's hear some chatter in the outfield!

Pat, in her best cheerleading uniform....
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:23:12 EDT
From:         David Powell
Subject:      Re: The Earhart Forum


> Does this mean everyone is simply holding his/her breath for the next four
> weeks? Is everyone merely busy with family and friends for the Fourth? Or
> have we become so dependent on the Master as to be paralyzed when he is gone?
>
> Let's hear some chatter in the outfield!
>
> Pat, in her best cheerleading uniform....


The Fourth what?

*************************

The Fourth of July... Independence Day.... 1776 and all that. Big holiday here in the States, everyone eats too much and drinks a lot of beer and shoots off fireworks.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:24:10 EDT
From:         Mike
Subject:      Re: The Earhart Forum

Pat, I think we are all holding our breath!!

Mike, in South Africa
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:25:09 EDT
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Re: The Earhart Forum

Ric who?

*******************

You're asking me?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:25:49 EDT
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: The Earhart Forum

zzzzzzz <grin>

william #2243
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:27:14 EDT
From:         Don
Subject:      Re: The Earhart forum

Here's my posting Pat.  Sorry to see you are sitting there idle!  I hope Ric and his group will travel to the island without incident and I am watching the postings closely for any word of them.  I hope they return with the whole aircraft, or another shoe or something. Happy 4th of July!

Don

*********************

Many thanks. We have weathered one storm already: a lost bag. The one with the bush knife, canteens, hand tools.... and laptop computer in it.

It has arrived in Los Angeles and is on its way to Fiji tonight. Whew!!!

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:29:17 EDT
From:         Marilu Corwin
Subject:      Stories wanted.....

Hey you guys,

I'm new to the forum, but have always been interested in the mystery of Amelia. My mom, Jerry Anne Jurenka, is on the trip to Niku; and I'd love to hear once in a while how the team is doing, or any individual anecdotes. I understand that the information from Niku during this mission will be sketchy...

Thanks a million,
Marilu Corwin

***************************

Well, do you want to hear the stories about the hurricanes last time? Forty foot waves and stuff?

Not too likely this time, thank heaven. Anyway, I will post what they send, if anything, and meanwhile we'll have to think of ways to amuse ourselves.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:30:31 EDT
From:         Dustoff
Subject:      Re: The Earhart Forum

Hey, we can generate chatter!!!  Long history of that.  Should it be on or off-topic?  Where's Dick Stripple when you need him.

*************************

Well, on topic would be nice, but I have great faith in this gang and their ability to avoid that.

Dennis, where ARE you?

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:31:48 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: The Earhart Forum

Aw shucks, ma'am...really don't have anything to say.  You tasked me to write a chapter or two for the 8th Edition, and, well, I haven't yet started.  You see, there is this "honey do" list a mile long; all my material is boxed up pending new carpet in my home office on Monday.

I do have a question for the folks on the west coast...Capt. Stanley Parker of the USCG SF Division was quite a character: he kept interdicting the Itasca, then kept on saying it wasn't the CG's fault.  It turns out there is another Stanley Parker, who was a Commandant of the USCG later, but their middle initials were different.  Has anyone tracked down own SP for diaries and any internal documentation?  Any known pictures?  Later this week, I can provide employment records for him with the CG, if that would help.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:53:57 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: The Earhart Forum

Don't worry. If the 4th of July is on your side of the pond what 14th of July is in France and 21st of  July in Belgium, then it's because everybody is packing and going on holiday. When the money will be spent they'll all be back.

I surfed through the Smithsonian yesterday and discovered they keep AE's beautiful red Lockheed Vega there. And the only pressurised Lockheed 10E ever built. Do you have any idea where the other L10 is, I mean Linda Fynch's. I saw that airplane at Le Bourget two years ago where it attracted as much attention as any of the new planes. Without being on sale. By the way how many Lockheed 10's are left today ? And how many are airworthy?

                                                Herman

*****************

Same thing---independence/nationalism holiday.

We don't know where Finch's airplane is. There were 130 or so 10s built, of which only... what, 13 or 14 were 10Es. Does anyone know the current census?

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:01:23 EDT
From:         Mary Jane
Subject:      Re: The Earhart Forum

Please let me know if you receive this.  I am new to the forum and this is my first message.  Also, by accident I deleted the information on sending a messages but do recall something about putting a number after your name.   I have been reading all of the messages sent to you and rick-what a wonderful forum.  In 1977 I worked in Mass. at the City of Medford Planning Dept. and there was a woman who came in a couple of times for the Historical Society. Much later I was told that this was AE sister.  Never saw her after because I moved.  Do you know if she lived in the Medford, Mass. area.  I always wonder about that.

Well hope this fills in some space for the forum-The Master may be away for awhile but as always there is a woman keeping the show going!!! 

Mary Jane

**********************

As you see, it came through fine. The number after some names is a membership number---membership in TIGHAR, that is, which is $45/year and carries with it much cachet and any number of benefits. See the web site for details <G>.

Muriel Earhart Morrissey did indeed live in Medford. She died just two years ago, at a great age.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:03:19 EDT
From:         Terry Ann Linley
Subject:      Re: Stories wanted

I'd be happy to let Marilu borrow my copy of the Niku 1997 tape....please send me her e-mail address, and I will contact her directly.  Thanks!

Terry

*********************

Marilu-- we have stopped posting email addresses on the Forum because people were getting junk mail. If you'd like to have the tape, send me the email and I'll forward it on to Terry, then you guys can touch base directly.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:05:34 EDT
From:         Shirley
Subject:      Logs, notes, journals?

I have had a thought (question) in the back of my mind for awhile, with regards to the possibility, or lack thereof,  of there being anything left of the log, or a note or journal, etc.

What might be left intact of anything like that?  Though, this calls for speculation, what does anyone else feel about the possibility of AE or FN trying to make a journal of happenings after the landing on Niku and perhaps trying to bury that in order that someone later on might find it?  Of course, this would call for the survivor to be keenly aware that he or she wasn't going to survive to a rescue.  I'm sure  that  fact was realized  at some point in time.

If this point hasn't been discussed before, perhaps we could have some banter about it. If it has, just tell me to shut up.

Sorry,  I haven't  been on the forum too long but I'm certainly very intrigued by it all and have been interested in the subject for some years.

I read all I can find for books and try to find "stuff" on the web besides TIGHAR in the hopes that I might find some little clue or sign that could possibly have been overlooked.  I can dream can't I ?

Thanks for listening.

LTM and fingers crossed
Shirley 2299

**************************************

Well, we've thought a lot about the treasure that would be a journal or log.... on the one hand, it would seem reasonable that someone marooned on a desert island would try to leave a record. On the other hand, where does one even begin to look? We are sure hoping for some sort of record, though. If wrapped well, and well above the waterline... it *might* survive.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:06:44 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Quiet Forum. 'Twon't last!

Pat,

>Well, now that Ric's gone off to the wars, it seems no one wants to play....
>not a single posting.

Okey, I've got a couple of things you might check out while you're just sitting around waiting for someone to post something!

First one:  I probably need to ask Jerry about this but i'll try it on you too. It sounds like a real possibility to resolve the question of whether or not Fred Noonan had any children.

Tom Abran asked:  Did Fred's Goddaughter have any recollection of children? I'd think she'd at least remember that.

Do you know whether this was ever checked out? Do we know how to contact her?

**********************************
OK, guys, here's a valid question..... let's have at it.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:10:14 EDT
From:         Willilam
Subject:      live witnesses

Hi gang:

     Does anyone know if there are witnesses (still alive)to AH & FN take-off on Lae? I'd like to know exactly what gear they had on board and if they may have left somethings behind which could have helped them land on the right island. And, were there bars on Lae and was Fred seen in them?

William LTM

********************************

Don't know if there are still witnesses alive, other than one or two fellows in Australia... Randy?

What gear they had on board is a matter of some fact and some speculation, and eyewitnesses won't help. What would help is an inventory, in writing, done at the time. I don't think there was one.

FWIW, those who were there say FN was sober and straight, and was mainly concerned with getting his chronometers set to the time signal, which took a couple of extra days.

Lae is a city in PNG---so it would be "in" not "on". It wasn't much of a place then (still isn't, actually), but probably had some bars. There is no indication that FN spent any time in them, nor is there any evidence that he had a problem with alcohol.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:12:23 EDT
From:         Hugh Graham
Subject:      Earhart forum doldrums

   So you want some off-topic ruminations.
   Previously, someone on the forum implied that Gen. Chuck Yeager thought himself a very good pilot.  But he might tell you that his buddy Bob Hoover is a better one.  Why?  Maybe because Hoover does something I thought impossible. He does an inside loop from 20 foot altitude in a twin Lycoming propellor-driven executive aircraft, designed about 1948, originally called an Aero Commander.

     I always thought that a wing-mounted propellor-driven aircraft generated too much gyroscopic force from the propellors to do a loop without twisting the wings off.  Could someone please explain?

     Of course Hoover eliminates this problem by repeating the trick with both engines shut down, followed by an 8-point hesitation roll at about 300 feet,
still without power.  And he is a 77-year-old WW2 vet!
                                     LTM(who was impressed)  HAG 2201.

*******************************

Well, this is pretty off-topic, all right. And the aeronautical engineering stuff is way outside my pay grade. Is there some way to link it to the Earhart flight? <G> I know, she did a loop on departure from Lae.... well, no, I guess not.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:13:16 EDT
From:         Kelly
Subject:      Leather jackets

Hey all,
Someone had posted a question about whether Amelia was wearing her leather flight jacket when she took off the last time....don't know if anyone answered this yet or not but I was always under the impression that her flight jacket was one of the items that she packed up and sent back home to make room for the needed fuel for the last leg of her final flight.  I recall reading this in one of the many books on Amelia.  Am I wrong?
Kelly

**************************

dunno, someone want to look it up?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:15:11 EDT
From:         Phil Tanner
Subject:      Film of takeoff

Just managed to watch the film of the last take-off at the project home page, having at long last acquired a non-steampowered computer. Who's the guy in the white shirt seeing off AE and FN?

    LTM Phil Tanner 2276

*******************************

Good question. I bet Randy knows the answer.

LTM, who is too lazy to go look it up herself

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:16:29 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Questions, questions....

Pat,

Since you did ask for more traffic on the Forum, I do have some questions I've been pondering for some time.

After reading through the web site & most of the books/articles (over many years) dealing with the AE/FN disappearance, I still find it puzzling that there was never any recorded instance of anyone hearing any SOS call from the flight giving their best estimated position (assuming they did indeed ditch the ship at sea) or any announcement of sighting another landfall.

Even during the early days of WWII the B-17, with Eddie Rickenbacker aboard, continued to send a Mayday signal, including an estimated position report, right up until the plane hit the water, even though they were flying in hostile territory where Japanese forces could intercept their signal.

I know, there are many explanations as to why no such broadcast from the AE/FN flight was heard, including the obvious one, that they did send such messages, but that no one heard them.

However, except for the many post-loss reports of hearing signals from the AE/FN plane (presumably, because of the time frames, after the plane had landed somewhere), all or most all of which were determined to be "hoaxes", there does seem to be a strange "gap" between the last message received by Itaska & the onset of the many radio signals reported by numerous sources (including the Navy & Pan Am) after the flight was presumed to be down.

Since it was reported, on several occasions, that AE stated that she would continue to broadcast position reports throughout the flight on a regular basis "even if no one is listening", might we dare assume that she did make such broadcasts? If, in fact, such broadcasts were sent, why didn't someone, somewhere hear them?

It has been assumed that the Itaska couldn't have heard any such broadcasts because shortly after they received the last message from the flight, they went steaming off to the West/Northwest, which would presumably have placed them out of receiving range, assuming that AE/FN were heading SE on their LOP toward the Phoenix chain.

It has also been stated that there were very few two-way radio sets or networks in the mandated islands during the 1930s (the one known station on Hull Island was not in working order) however we know there was a radio operator on Nauru Island that heard AE broadcasting during the flight & there were stories about someone on Tabiteuea, in the Gilbert chain, "hearing" the plane pass over or near the island (uncertain whether they heard any radio broadcast from AE).

Getting to my main point, in all the reading I've done on the subject, I've never found that any serious research has been done to establish exactly what the status of radio receivers was in the mandates in 1938.

There was a Pan Am radio network in the South Pacific, including Guam (where the U.S. Navy had established an advanced radio listening post in the 1920s, to intercept Japanese Naval fleet messages & that Naval personnel on that island maintained their own "ham" radio facility, which could reach Hawaii & San Francisco), however there is no information available about radio networks operated in the Japanese mandated (including the Marshalls) islands or similar networks operated by the British (particularly in the Gilberts).

Recently, I exchanged E-mail messages with a Japanese journalist, Fukiko Aoki, who authored a magazine article & a book in the 1980s, seeking to debunk the many Japanese conspiracy theories that have arisen over the years, regarding the AE/FN disappearance (unfortunately her book & article were never published in English).  Since she had interviewed many of the surviving Japanese Naval personnel who served in the mandates during that era I asked her if she had ever inquired as to the operation of any civil or military radio networks the Japanese may have established during their occupation of the islands.  So far she has not responded to my latest inquiry (hope I didn't scare her off by being so specific).

Sorry I've taken up so much space & time on the forum, but these questions still "bug" me & I will continue to try & dig-up more info on the subject myself & let you know if I come-up with anything interesting.

Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:10:59 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Earhart Forum doldrums

This may be off-topic, but since you say you want more traffic, I'd like to say a few words concerning Hugh Graham's comment on Bob Hoover while we are all waiting for the others to bring back AE's L10. While i know Chuck Yeager because he is part of history for being the first to break the sound barrier, I know Bob Hoover because I saw him roll his Aero Commander on TV. The only other guy I know who rolled a twin near the ground was also a good pilot. He rolled one of the one remaining airworthy WW II Lockheed P-38 Lightnings in the UK at the Duxford air show, came out too low and flew into the ground before TV. Only later did someone find a WW II flight manual for the P-38, which said rolls were not allowed below 3,000 ft. So although I agree Bob Hoover is a good pilot, I'd like to remind everybody that there are old pilots, there are bold pilots, but that there are no old bold pilots.

If I met Bob Hoover I would remind him of that a safe way to fly an airplane is "to pull to get the houses become  smaller and keep the blue side up".

From Herman

(who threw about a few airplanes in his lifetime, is younger than Bob
Hoover, not as bold however, but still around)

******************

always a good reminder.......

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:22:16 EDT
From:         Ken Knapp
Subject:      Re: Stories wanted

Hello all!

Here is a little story for the forum.

Today I drove out to the Viewmont Mall in Scranton (must need my head examined in this heat!). Anyway, I noticed this car ahead of me, signaling a turn into the Circuit City plaza. It was a white chrysler LeBaron convertable. The thing about this car that caught my ey was the license plate... the bracket said "Lady pilots don't stall around". And the license number was (get this) "AME1IA". Cool, huh?

As I passed the car on the right, I saw it was being driven by a man, not a lady. Could this have been Fred? Could he have been going to Circuit City to pick up a TV/VCR combo for the Electra which had been refitted as a flying RV?? Too many questions and no answers. Perhaps we should recall Ric and initiate a new search in Scranton! What a place to disappear from the world!

Ok, I really did see that car, but I'm kidding about the rest. Wanted to make that clear before you called the men in white coats to get me. :>

Hope everyone has a nice 4th. And remember, "If you drink a fifth on the fourth, you're not likely to venture forth on the fifth".

LTM,

Ken Knapp

*******************

Of course, I was the one who said chatter in the outfield, uh huh.... can I take it back? <G>

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:26:36 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Logs, notes, journals?

Pat, when you were on Niku, was there any paper products that survived since the abandonment of the village?  I would think that paper would deteriorate quite quickly, but your observations would bear witness to this question.

*************************

Heck, the paper products *we* brought to the island didn't usually survive the experience...

For paper to stay intact there it would have to be very well wrapped in a water and bug and rodent proof container of some kind. Between the rain and the heat....

When we excavated the grave and found the remains of an infant, we reassembled the site as we found it. This included a flat slab of coral rock about 12 inches by 12 inches which was at the head of the grave, lying flat, underneath the covering layer of white shells. Underneath that rock we left a note explaining what we had done, and how to reach us, in two zip-lock style bags. It was the only way we could think of to save another archeologist the trouble of re-excavating it... but we all agreed at the time that there was a high chance that the bags wouldn't work and the paper would melt away.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:27:45 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: live witnesses

No info from my side...Balfour, the radio operator, last correspondence was from the late 70's, IIRC.

> From William
>
> Hi gang:
>
>      Does anyone know if there are witnesses (still alive)to AH & FN
> take-off on Lae? I'd like to know exactly what gear they had on board and if
> they may have left somethings behind which could have helped them land on
> the right island. And, were there bars on Lae and was Fred seen in them?
>
> William LTM
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:28:47 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      RE: film of takeoff

Wasn't that Colonel Sanders hawking his chicken?  Nope, I've no idea...not kept up on people on Lae, but Ric may know.

> From Phil Tanner
>
> Just managed to watch the film of the last take-off at the project home page,
> having at long last acquired a non-steampowered computer. Who's the guy in
> the white shirt seeing off AE and FN?

*********************

Well shoot, guess I'll have to find out.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:30:11 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Questions

Responding to Don Neumann's question:

Others may have opinions beside mine, but...

AE's radio was not of great power, and she used voice instead of morse code, which would make reception at range more difficult.  Apparently, she changed to 6210 KHz at her last transmission, which had very short range during daylight.  To hear her, you had to be at one of the skip distances, and listening as well.  As far as we know, only the Ontario, Swan, Itasca, Nauru, Lae, CG Honolulu and Radio Tutuilla were even attempting to listen to AE during the flight.  Lae, Nauru and Honolulu were hopelessly out of range, as were the PAA stations, particularly during the day.  Ontario was on her way home, and had no reason to listen in; Swan never heard a thing, as did Tutuilla and Honolulu.  There were several stations in the Gilberts that could have been used as radio beacons, but they were broadcast stations only.  There were probably a few 2-way stations up and running, but they were never informed as to what frequencies to tune into, nor did they know when AE took off.  That pretty much sums up the situation.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:31:40 EDT
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      Re: Noonan's Children

> It sounds like a real possibility to resolve the question of whether or not
> Fred Noonan had any children.
>
> Tom Abran asked:  Did Fred's Goddaughter have any recollection of children?
> I'd think she'd at least remember that.
>
> Do you know whether this was ever checked out?
> Do we know how to contact her?

I tracked down Fred's god-daughter from a lead in an article in a 1937 New Orleans Time-Picayune article about FN. Her father (now deceased) was called Fred's best friend and FN became her godfather. I talked to her over the phone and exchanged a couple of letters with her. Without going back to review the letters, I think she was about 14 when AE and FN came thru New Orleans in May, 1937.Remember, Fred would have been gone from N.O. about 7 years by this time and we don't think they kept real close contact. He didn't visit the family in May, '37, but called his god-daughter from the airport and talked to her awhile. She sent me a color copy of the postcard he sent her from Calcutta.. Also a copy of an envelope which contained a letter sent to her father by FN from Oakland in 1935. She declined to reveal the contents of the letter. She is a gracious lady, delightful to talk to. I believe she has a family member or close friend who monitors the forum. She does not remember any children or stories of any FN alcoholism.

Regarding children. Fred and Josie were married ten years. New  Orleans Catholic diocese did a search for baptismal records from 1927 to 1930 when they lived there and no luck. I have a contact in Miami who did a birth index search for Dade Co. and no luck (they were either there or in port-au-Prince, Haiti from 1930-35). I asked the State Dept. about births of Americans overseas during this time period and got a lot of governtmentese which meant they weren't interested in looking. If I EVER get the Juarez divorce record, I am hoping it will say whether any children were born to the union or not.

Smooth Sailing.
Ron Dawson 2126
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:32:49 EDT
From:         Smartfix
Subject:      leather jackets

I believe Amelia's leather jacket is on display at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum.

****************

If memory serves, a leather jacket that belonged to AE is also in the Purdue University Library Special Collection.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:36:20 EDT
From:         Mark Cameron
Subject:      Re: Stories Wanted

Just found out there is a 1997 Niku tape - are there any copies left? Or could I ask another member to copy theirs and send it to me? I'd be glad to pay any expenses necessary to copy and mail it

LTM and thanks
Mark Cameron #2301

*************************

Well, you see, it's like this.

We have a good master of the two shows made about the 1997---ABC Turning Point, and a Discovery Channel show. We have been just running off copies for people for ... I dunno, I think $20 each to cover time and materials. Not exactly a great system, but it works and we have permission to do this.

Problem is.... I don't know how to set up the dubbing system. Ric does video, I do computers.

Can you wait until August? <she said, very quietly and plaintively>

LTM, who is not real good with tv type technology

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:40:34 EDT
From:         Sactodave
Subject:      Wing structures and maneuvers3

Bob Hoover is indeed one of the world's greatest pilots. His recent FAA medical difficulties allegedly resulted from an anomoly during his FAA Qualification Flight. It was told to me by a less-than-reliable source (an Air Force Fighter Pilot) that Mr. Hoover was suffering from some sort of brain damage, ostensibly resulting from his accident in San Diego. Though I cannot confirm this rumor, the general consensus from the pilot population was that the FAA was "out to get him"  I have close personal friends in the FAA. The man who taught me to fly back in 1973 is now an FAA Check Airman, and a highly experienced pilot in his own right. The FAA is not in the business of "getting" anyone. In my twenty five years of flying, I've had several checkrides, medical examinations, and certifications issued by the agency, and never have I been withheld from obtaining any rating, medical certification, or other service administered by the FAA.

Now, as far as the maneuver you discuss, an inside loop in a highwing twin is as possible as the roll performed by "Tex" Johnson in the 707. Aircraft that are rated in the Normal Category are able to withstand certain structural loads of positive and negative Gs, depending on wing design, internal structure, etc. They must be designed to sustain a certain "Load Factor" to be certified to operate in the Normal Category. Mr. Hoover, in performing his inside loops and other incredible feats, simply operates the airplane within those design limits.  You may be alluding to the Partenavia that shed it's outer wing surfaces during a show in Arizona (I knew the pilot) That was a clear case of exceeding the design load factor of the wings. You mention the effect of propellers during an inside loop. There is a tremendous gyroscopic precession, created by the rotating propellers, that occurs when the aircraft is accelerated in the horizontal axis during a loop. But as I stated earlier, the design limits do take these forces into account.

**********************

This is really quite interesting, even if it *is* off-topic.

Ob-Earhart---- when you look at the structure of an Electra, it looks very over-engineered for the job the aircraft was supposed to do. The wing is built like a girdered bridge, and that whole center section is massive. This helps give us the hope we have that at least that much will have survived and be identifiable.

Any comments on structure re: Electras? I don't think any modern aircraft are built like that.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:41:25 EDT
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      Wings and maneuvers

>From Hugh Graham 2201:
>
> I always thought that a wing-mounted propellor-driven aircraft generated
> too much gyroscopic force from the propellors to do a loop without
> twisting the wings off.  Could someone please explain?

Forget the 'gyroscopic force'.  DC-3's, C-46's, B-17's, DC-7's and all 2. 3, & 4 eng. planes do loops and rolls just fine.   [Its a good idea to be sure that there is nothig loose in the cockpit, cabin or bomb bay...] And any other manuever within their safe G range.

 RC  941

PS Bob Hoover is not only one of the best pilots that ever lived but a fine gentleman as well.  He was Chuck's chase pilot when he broke the sound barrier, and again 50 yrs. later when Chuck 'recreated' the event.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:43:25 EDT
From:         Ang.
Subject:      Re: the forum

>Let's hear some chatter in the outfield!

I suggest we stick very close to the script to avoid reader burnout. IMHO a rest (minimal activity) from this pace would be very welcome. Let Gillespie do his thing and lets keep the channel clear for his communiques.

Ang.

**********************

There probably won't be much in the way of communiques, actually. It's a pretty laborious process---SSB to Fiji, fax or email here, nothing long or informative can be passed. Some *on-topic* discussion would be useful... unless everyone is just so durned tired they want a rest?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:45:19 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Expedition results

I think we all need to keep things in proper perspective.  While we hope that this expedition will result in either DNA identifiable bones being located in Suva or Lockheed parts being located on the island with identifiable serial numbers there is every probability it will not happen. The bones are more likely to have been tossed out and the aircraft or aircraft parts that may have been in the bushes in the 1940s and 1950s may no longer be there.  Neither of these cases mean that our hypothesis is wrong but it means we may need to press on with continued commitment in our search for what really happened to Amelia and Fred.  This kind of scientific investigation is seldom simple and seldom capped with very dramatic success. If the investigation is worth undertaking, and it surely is, then it is worthy of dedication to carry on even when there may be failures along they way.  I say all this because I think it is important that we not get our expectations raised to high.  I would love to see this expedition crown our efforts with great success but I am prepared to continue giving my support to TIGHAR regardless of the outcome of this present effort.

Dick Pingrey 0908C

********************

Of course you are 100% correct. And this kind of support is what makes it possible for us to keep going when the successes are few and far between...

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:47:02 EDT
From:         Deacon Michael Cantrelle
Subject:      FN children

Tom Abran asked:

>Did Fred's Goddaughter have any recollection of children?
>I'd think she'd at least remember that.
>
>Do you know whether this was ever checked out?
>Do we know how to contact her?

I spoke to FN's godchild this morning. I live about a mile from her. She doesn't recall any children.  She says Fred was married twice. First wife was from Mississippi.

She said her father never spoke or mentioned anything about Fred having children.  It seems that she lost touch with Fred for some time.  In fact, she didn't really know what he looked like until I gave her a picture of him and than later she received information and pictures from Tighar.

Deacon Michael Cantrelle
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:00:44 EDT
From:         JMKSM
Subject:      Lockheed 10s, etc.

Here are a couple of excerpts from postings to and from the forum, plus other stuff.

What is the difference between an Electra 10E and 10A?  The model 10 Linda Finch flew had been grounded at a small grass strip near my home for several years as a result of engine failure, and was quite a mess.  It had been used for skydiving.  When local interest built up, the local papers, the owners, and the aircraft registration papers all called it a model 10E.

Its history was, in part, as a member of the Brazilian national airline, Varig, where speculation has it, it was they who outfitted it with the 550 hp P & W engines.  A while back I recalled and sent some information about Linda Finch's airplane (to Ric).  I have found a couple of articles from our local newspaper describing some of its history.  It was flown here on Memorial Day weekend,1977, by a pilot named Gary Hannah.  It had engine trouble and landed at a small grass strip used by skydivers.  Hannah was later reportedly killed while flying in Alaska.  The left engine was removed and the plane sat idle here until 1983, then was claimed by a group called "Amelia Air" in possession of a very suspect bill of sale.  That group towed the airplane to Amery, WI, and apparently took it apart, as Linda Finch stated the airplane was in pieces and stored in Amery when she bought it in 1992.  What may be worth more than the article are two pictures (sent to Ric); one showing a head on frontal shot while being towed, with the left engine removed.  The other is from a more recent article showing Finch with the restored airplane in Oakland, CA.

As for the suspect bill of sale it was from the group "Amelia Air" presented to the owner of the private airport, who had claimed possession of the airplane because it had been abandoned.  And yes, it certainly seems the title to the plane is cloudy, at least from 1977 - 1992.

Ric replied:  "The only difference between the 10A and the 10E are the engines.  Earhart's was a 10E Special, the "Special" signifying the addition of long-range fuel tanks.   Finch's airplane (c/n 1015), accurately described, is a 10A modified to 10E standard."

As for where the airplane is now, don't know for sure.  But, it was for sale in Texas, where Finch is from, for well over one million.  However, Finch is/was in substantial legal wrangling and the plane may have been tied up in that.  Much of the World Flight 1997 information directly from Finch is not accessible on the web any more.  The following web address has information about it though - ssc.nasa.gov/htmls/tseierc/flight.htm#Menu

There were 15 Electras 10E's produced, according to internet sources, with only two existing today.  A question could be, is one of them Finch's, since hers was a converted 10A.

Off this subject, I have an acquaintance who visited his son on Guam.  They used Guam as a staging ground for exploration to an outlying island where an old resident showed them a room in an old prison where he had seen the bodies of the "two American fliers" after they were killed by the Japanese.  This acquaintance is now firmly embedded in the conspiracy theory camp.

**********************************

Thanks much!!

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:02:57 EDT
From:         Jack. J.
Subject:      Re: Lockheeds

According to "Lockheed Aircraft since 1913," by Rene J. Francillon, there were 15 Lockheed model 10-E's built. The pressurized Electra, c/n 3501, was designated the XC-35 and was a "one-off" model of the Electra series. The construction number, c/n-35 was a special number assigned by Lockheed, rather than falling within the series 1000 to 1148 range of all the other Electra's. The aircraft was ordered by the War Department for research relative to pressurized cabins. The aircraft still exists, and is part of the collection at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC

I hope the readers find this bit of Electra trivia of interest. As to the current status of existing Electras, I'll start digging through my archives for some reliable data. The Electras were dispersed throughout the world from their very beginning, so this information may be near impossible to obtain.

As for Linda Finch, the AE "wannabe", and her poor attempt at a L-10-E NR16020 look-a-like, it should be found at the bottom of the Pacific with the wannabe in it!

Best wishes and blue skies to the expedition crew.
Jack J. LTM

********************************************

Now now, mustn't be too hard on Linda Finch.... surely there's a reason why not......

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:06:13 EDT
From:         Tet Walston
Subject:      Lockheeds and radios

I know this is off topic, but in 1941 (when I was a RAF u/t pilot) we were flying Tiger Moths from Calgary Airfield (Alberta, Canada), when it really was a grass field, The Canadian National Airlines, called Trans Canada Airlines, were flying Lockheed 10s, using the same field. We knew them as Electras.

They had radio, and thus communication with the (then) primitive Air Traffic Control.  They also obviously had very experienced pilots -- whereas WE were learning to fly, and thus knew little about the art/science of being a pilot. Despite the lack of radio, we learned very quickly to "see and be seen" and TCA had priority in take-off and Circuits and Landings.

There were no mid-air collisions, nor any "near misses", a creditable record.

I recall my thoughts at the time, that Amelia was flying a similar a/c when she disappeared.

Best wishes on the search,

LTM, Tet, ex Spitfire pilot WW
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:07:57 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Logs, notes, journals?

> Well, we've thought a lot about the treasure that would be a journal or
> log.... on the one hand, it would seem reasonable that someone marooned on a
> desert island would try to leave a record. On the other hand, where does one
> even begin to look? We are sure hoping for some sort of record, though. If
> wrapped well, and well above the waterline... it *might* survive.

As I remember, there was mention of a mound of oyster shells that had cemented themselves together.  Could this be a cairn, left there as a marker to future visitors to the island?  Has anyone thought to look under them or around them to determine this?  Could they perhaps be a tombstone of sorts?

Blue Skies & LTM,
Dave Bush
#2200

****************************

It wasn't a pile.... more like a loosely affiliated scattering. Tom King thought it looked like a place where someone had lunch <G>.

Patv
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:09:38 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: The Earhart Forum

> >From David Powell
>
> > Does this mean everyone is simply holding his/her breath for the next four
> > weeks? Is everyone merely busy with family and friends for the Fourth? Or
> > have we become so dependent on the Master as to be paralyzed when he is
> gone?
> >
> > Let's hear some chatter in the outfield!
> >
> > Pat, in her best cheerleading uniform....
>
> The Fourth what?
>
> *************************
>
> The Fourth of July... Independence Day.... 1776 and all that. Big holiday
> here in the States, everyone eats too much and drinks a lot of beer and
> shoots off fireworks.
>
> Pat

I was having lunch with an friend, expatriate English, when the subject of the Fourth of July came up.  I asked him if they had a fourth in England and he said no, they didn't.  I replied, with mock surprise, "You mean their calendar jumps from the third to the fifth?"  Fortunately I survived.  But I cannot repeat his diatribe here on the forum for fear of offending delicate ears.

Blue Skies & LTM,
Dave Bush
#2200
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:10:26 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Noonan children

To:  Deacon Cantrelle
     Ron Dawson

Thank you for rather quickly clearing up the question of whether or not Fred's God-Daughter was aware of any Noonan Children.  All things known at this time seem to pretty definitly indicate that there were no children.

One question leads to another.  Mrs. Crosson, whose husband knew Fred well, had the impression that Fred had taken a leave of absence from PAA to go with Amelia as her navigator.

I wonder if that letter the lady has was written at such a time that it might shed some light on that question?  Did Fred leave PAA, or take leave of absence? She could answer that essentially yes or no.  She might have to check the letter with that in mind.

Do we know if the letter was written in late 1936 or early 1937?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:12:49 EDT
From:         Phil Tanner
Subject:      Bad news, if accurately reported

Found this bad news at www.fijilive.com. phil 2276:

##########

The American research team, TIGHAR (The International Group for Aircraft Recovery) have been denied by the President, Ratu Sir Kamisese Mara, to search the Government House premises.

TIGHAR is an American Volunteer search group searching for the famous female aviator Amelia Earhart's remains.

"The President was a medical student at the Central Medical School at the time the bones were sent from Nikumaroro to Suva so that it could be examined," said a researcher with TIGHAR, Dr Thomas King.

"And we welcome the opportunity to have someone who knows what we're looking for," Dr King said.

"We were given a letter which was from the President's Private Secretary which stating that the search is not considered appropriate.

"But we hope that they will reconsider and give us a more positive response," Dr King said.

Part of the research group left for an island, Nikumaroro in the Republic of Kiribati.

TIGHAR's Earheart research has been focused on the uninhabited island some 400 miles southeast of Howland Island, Earheart's last destination at the time of her loss.

Four archeological surveys and test excavations have been conducted to date on the island with the co-operation of the Kiribati government, and extensive archival and oral historical research is ongoing.

According to Dr King, TIGHAR has a few strong leads to the whereabouts of the remains of Ms Earheart.

"We have a few wireless messages that were relayed back and forth from the Pacific Western High Commissioner and an officer who was on the island of Nikumaroro who believed that he had found part of the remains of Ms Earheart," he said.

"We got the information and the copies of the messages from the National Archives in Kiribati on an island of Terawa and from the Archives of the Western Pacific High Commission which is on the outskirts of London," Dr King said.

"We, (TIGHAR) believe that maybe substantial pieces of the plane (which we believe landed safely on Nikumaroro) are still intact and identifiable," Dr King said.

"But if we are not going to be able to find anything on this search in Suva and Nikumaroro, we will give up," he said.

"But we still have a few strong leads to follow," Dr King said.

##############

Thanks, Phil. When I talked to Ric last there were some pretty positive things going on in terms of rumor chasing and so on. I dunno what the story is today, of course.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:14:01 EDT
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      TIGHAR press coverage

Hi Pat, I just saw this...

william #2243

-----------

Tuesday July 6 3:12 AM ET

Fiji Bones May Hold Key To Earhart Mystery
By Shaun Devitt

SYDNEY (Reuters) - A team of American volunteers are scouring government buildings in the Pacific island state of Fiji for a box of bones that could finally solve the mystery of U.S. aviation pioneer Amelia Earhart.

Earhart disappeared over the Pacific on July 2, 1937, while trying to fly around the world with navigator Fred Noonan.

American archaeologists said a link had been formed between medical reports dating from 1941 and the disappearance of Earhart and Noonan.

"Earhart and Noonan are the only people we know of that description that disappeared in the area, so there's a high probability it's them," archaeologist Thomas King told Reuters.

King, who is leading the team, said 13 bones including a skull, and a woman's shoe and a sextant, had been discovered on the island of Nikumaroro three years after Earhart disappeared. Nikumaroro was then in the Gilbert and Ellice Islands, which are now the independent state of Kiribati.

A British doctor in Suva, Dr. D.W. Hoodless, had studied the bones and made a comprehensive inventory of the remains.

His report was discovered by the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery (TIGHAR), but the actual bones are missing. King said a modern anthropology database had shown that the bones would match someone of Earhart's appearance and northern European descent.

"If we can find the bones, DNA testing will confirm they actually are Earhart's remains," King said from Suva, where he believes the bones are lost within government buildings and hospitals.

Archaeologists had been scanning islands in the Kiribati region for aircraft remains matching Earhart's plane and had spoken to villagers about the suspected crash site.

"The problem is that the colonists who were around when Earhart disappeared moved away to the Solomon Islands and other regions," King said.

Several metal parts, similar in consistency and age to Earhart's plane, had been found on the island but locals may have used the wreckage for jewelry purposes, scattering the remains.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:15:35 EDT
From:         Tom Abran
Subject:      Purple

Don Neumann wrote:

"I've never found that any serious research has been done to establish exactly what the status of radio receivers was in the mandates in 1938. There was a Pan Am radio network in the South Pacific, including Guam (where the U.S. Navy had established an advanced radio listening post in the 1920s, to intercept Japanese Naval fleet messages), however there is no information available about radio networks operated in the Japanese mandated (including the Marshalls) islands or similar networks operated by the British (particularly in the Gilberts)."

I know that U.S. intelligence broke the Japanese code and deciphered all of their transmissions. Does anyone know when this happened? I'm sure they never heard anything about Amelia and Fred, but if we know they were listening at that time, it would place another nail in the conspiracy coffin.   -    Tom Abran

****************

anyone?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:17:59 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Expedition results

From Peter Boor:

Well put, Dick. My feelings exactly. Peter Boor - 0856C

> From Dick Pingrey
>
> Pat,
>         I think we all need to keep things in proper perspective.  While
> we
> hope that this expedition will result in either DNA identifiable bones
> being
> located in Suva or Lockheed parts being located on the island with
> identifiable serial numbers there is every probability it will not happen.
> The bones are more likely to have been tossed out and the aircraft or
> aircraft parts that may have been in the bushes in the 1940s and 1950s may
> no
> longer be there.  Neither of these cases mean that our hypothesis is wrong
> but it means we may need to press on with continued commitment in our
> search
> for what really happened to Amelia and Fred.  This kind of scientific
> investigation is seldom simple and seldom capped with very dramatic
> success.
> If the investigation is worth undertaking, and it surely is, then it is
> worthy of dedication to carry on even when there may be failures along
> they
> way.  I say all this because I think it is important that we not get our
> expectations raised to high  I would love to see this expedition crown
> our
> efforts with great success but I am prepared to continue giving my support
> to
> TIGHAR regardless of the outcome of this present effort.
> Dick Pingrey 0908C
>
> ********************
>
> Of course you are 100% correct. And this kind of support is what makes it
> possible for us to keep going when the successes are few and far
> between...
>
> P
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:18:52 EDT
From:         Phil Tanner
Subject:      Another Fiji web site report

From Phil Tanner

This is from www.fijivillage.com

############

No luck yet in search for American navigators bones

The search for the bones of the famous American pilot Amelia Earheart continues without much luck.

Team leader Doctor Tom King says although they have been denied access to Government House to look for the missing bones, they will be looking in a number of other locations where the bones may have been tucked away in. However he was hesitant to say where because approvals were still being sought.

Dr King says they will also be talking to people who might have any recollection of the bones as well as study records at the National Archives.

Meanwhile, King and his team return to the United States on the 26th of month. They will be replaced with a forensic anthropologist who will continue where King's team would have left off.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:43:32 EDT
From:         Gene Bialek
Subject:      Pan Am, Noonan and Gatty

The Naval Historical Center's Library has acquired a 1997 book entitled "Pacific Pioneers: A Pictorial History of Pan Am's Pacific First Flights 1935-1946" Jon Krupnick is the author. Several photos of Fred Noonan with the Sikorsky S-42 seaplane.  He was navigator during the first Pan Am survey flight in 1935, and of course subsequent flights. Interesting to note that Pam Am gave up carrying a separate navigator after a period, giving those duties to the first officer.

Also mentioned in the book is Harold Gatty. He was employed by Pan Am to scout out potential landing sites after Kingman Reef proved undesirable.  It is obvious that Gatty knew the Islands very well. The book contains a nice summary of why the US took over the British Islands at that time.

Gene Bialek
gbialek@knight-hub.com.

***********************

Thanks, Gene, sounds like an interesting source.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:42:19 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Report From Tom King in FIJI

Bula from Fiji!

We've had trouble getting access to e-mail, and I don't think my last report made it to TIGHAR Central, so here's a current situation report:

Nikumaroro Team:  Nai'a sailed yesterday, July 5 in Fiji, with all present and accounted for.  Godspeed to ship and crew.

Fiji Team:  Karen Burns has left with Nai'a and Barbara Norris has arrived.  Thus far we have:

* Gone through all skeletal material at the Fiji Museum not associated with known Fijian archeological sites, and found no matches for the Nikumaroro bones.

* Gone through the skeletal collection of the Anatomy Department, Fiji School of Medicine (successor to the Central Medical School) with the same results.

* Searched the attic of the old Central Medical School (now the dental clinic at the Colonial War Memorial Hospital) with negative results (several wooden boxes, but none Kanawa, all with red crosses on them, all empty).

* Searched the attic and underfloor space at Dr. Hoodless' residence, with negative results.

* Searched the attic of the gazebo in Thurston Garden (built 1914, part of the Fiji Museum complex) with negative results.

* Held a number of interviews, a press conference, and been featured on Fiji TV One and in the local newspapers; this is bringing in a small number of contacts and suggestions, which we're following up.

We've been able to make this level of progress because of tremendous support by the Fiji Museum, which has opened many doors for us, made arrangements, and guided us through the government protocol system. Through the Museum we've also obtained the services of four volunteers who are assisting in the search.

In the immediate future, we have several more buildings to search, a number of people to interview, and a number of archives to check. Though results have thus far been negative, hope springs eternal.

In a somewhat peripheral development, Kar Burns has helped the Suva Police identify a skeleton found in the forest not far from here, in an environment not unlike Nikumaroro's.  Interestingly, it appears likely that the individual represented died only about 4 months ago, and was completely reduced to a skeleton, substantially scattered and somewhat chewed, probably by dogs and/or pigs.

We hear that some of you have picked up the rather overblown news story (based on a leaked document) about the Government refusing us access to Government House, the old HQ of the Western Pacific High Commission. In fact, while the Government is naturally sensitive about people from another country searching its buildings, we had a very good meeting this morning (7/7) with the President's Official Secretary, and are quite hopeful that someone (perhaps not we) will look through the buildings with an eye to finding bones and boxes.

We also had a good interview this morning on the Australian Broadcasting Company's National Breakfast Show, and a good talk with Reuters yesterday.  We're getting lots of press, which is bringing more information, ideas, and possibilities to light.

So the bottom line here is - no bones or boxes in hand yet, but progress is being made, and we're cautiously optimistic.

Love to Mother (who says to clean your attic; you never know what you'll find)

Barb Norris, Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:44:38 EDT
From:         Dennis (The Troublemaker) McGee
Subject:      Re: The Earhart Forum

Hey, battah, battah, hey.  C'mmon battah, swing it.  Let's go, let's go, let's go. Ok, Dusty, let's have a little chin music.  Come on babe, put 'er in there.  Zing it on by 'em.  Go get em'.. don't let this bulsa bat scare ya'.

Hey, battah, battah!  Swing baby, baby swing.  Come on man I'm  getting hot out here.  'Fraid to hit me the ball?  Come on man, swingthat lumber,  Show me you gots some b***s.  Hey, battah. hey, battah.

Is that enough chatter from the outfield?.  If I go any deeper into my repertoire I'll get fined by the FCC.

        LTM, who's a .241 lifetime hitter
        Dennis McGee #0149CE

*************************************

Dennis, I knew I could count on you in a pinch....

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:47:30 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      membership numbers

Pat said:  "As you see, it came through fine. The number after some names is a membership number---membership in TIGHAR, that is, which is $45/year and carries with it much cachet and any number of benefits. See the web site for details <G>."

And don't forget to mention that TIGHAR also sells expired membership numbers to allow oldsters and newsters to get a highly prized double-digit number or mildly sought after triple digit one, too.

****************************************

You are quite right, Dennis, that is a benefit of membership <G>.

Dennis' number is 0149CE--he's been around for ages. Must be gettin' old like the rest of us.

Seriously, folks, we do welcome your participation on the Forum, and also as members of TIGHAR. Our strength is in our numbers and our knowledge---when we work together we can accomplish anything.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:48:46 EDT
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Gardner Island Surveys

Regarding the extensive searches we've been undertaking at the National Archives, we have nearly wrapped up the process. The depth of our search has been considerably farther than others have gone in this regard, but even so, we have not turned up any useful data.

We do have a wonderful hydrographic chart, which shows water depths in and outside the lagoon. This has its uses, of course, but sadly, the detail on the shore is left blank. The shore site survey maps are not in the system.

I should reiterate that the entire island (Nikumaroro) was extensively surveyed and imaged as part of the pre-construction phase for the LORAN station during the 1940s. This was one of our key items to search for and examine, however, it is now clear that the data is not in the National Archives system. While this is a bit unusual, it is not completely unexpected. Before the conspiracy crowd claims another USCG or USN cover-up, please keep in mind that only 2 percent of all documents are ever saved and made part of the system. Too bad. If the plane was there, there would have been photographs in the survey file. Apparently, it was not deemed worthwhile to be saved by the system.

Of note, if we had found even a single survey document from that trip, we would have had the names of those who were involved, which would have opened up a new avenue of examination. Still working on that from another angle, but it is a fairly remote possibility that we will uncover their names since the rest of the files were destroyed / not saved. This too appears to be a dead end unless someone somewhere remembers the survey itself or knew the team.

The only remaining area of search, which remains pertinent whether or not the team finds bits of the plane on Nikumaroro this trip, is our search through BuAir records for the loan letter of a sextant to Fred Noonan. This involves examining every letter in the file and will take some time. We already completed the effort with the BuNav records, which revealed that USN aviation sextants do have a four number identification system (not unlike the numbers reported by Gallagher), but nothing more. There may yet be a "smoking gun" in there in the BuAir records -- a letter which records the loan of a sextant by those numbers to Noonan.

We'll let you know.

Thomas Van Hare
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:49:53 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Lockheeds

> From Jack J.
>
>...
>
> As for Linda Finch, the AE "wannabe", and her poor attempt at a L-10-E
> NR16020 look-a-like, it should be found at the bottom of the Pacific with the
> wannabe in it!

Never, ever wish for a good airplane to be at the bottom of the ocean, that is sacrilegious to the extreme.  As for Linda Finch, well, we should practice God's love towards all, so at least give her a life preserver before you dump her in the ocean.

Blue skies & LTM,
Dave Bush
#2200

****************************************

Charity is a Good Thing. Lifesavers are also nice, especially the lime-flavored ones....

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:50:34 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Purple

The US definitely did NOT decipher all Japanese code during 1937...most of the intelligence was collected by DF'ing and inference.  Some codes were cracked, but certainly not all of them.  This is true, even in WWII.

On Tuesday, July 06, 1999 12:16 PM, Richard E. Gillespie
 =========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:51:45 EDT
From:         Pat Ward
Subject:      Auto licenses and holders

> Lady pilots don't stall around". And the license
> number was (get this) "AME1IA". Cool, huh? 

That lady pilot is a member of The Ninety-Nines (Int'l Organization of Women Pilots). The 99s sell those license plate holders,,,,,pmw

**************************

Thanks, Pat.

I wonder what sort of license plate holder TIGHAR ought to produce....

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:53:58 EDT
From:         Janet Powell
Subject:      Re: TIGHAR Press Coverage

From Janet Powell

There I was this morning, stuck in a traffic jam on the M6, (those this side of the pond will understand fully!), when, having had a TIGHAR free week, I was daydreaming of news awaiting my return home.  What of Ric and Co. I thought?  Was it as hot on Niku and Fiji as it was on the M6?  What of Tornadoes such as I experienced yesterday?

I was just contemplating the relationship between tornadoes and cyclones, when day-dreaming merged uncomfortably with reality - BBC Radio 2 news talking of 'A small group of Americans out in Fiji looking for Amelia Earhart's bones and a Sextant box'!  (It was as brief as that I'm afraid!)

The uncomfortable feeling of having temporarily 'lost it' was only confirmed when in the next news item, TIGHAR's activities were replaced by some apparently more exciting news!  (I won't bore you with the details - suffice to say it's replacement was hardly news!)

On my return home I was shocked and amazed to learn of these so called 'rumours'! What's happening Pat? - I assume they are rumours???

As for my namesake....

>The Fourth what?

'Expedition darling, - Expedition!'  Is this a relative?  I suppose that if you go back far enough we all are - so what are any of us to Amelia and Fred???

LTM - whose off on yet another tangent!

Janet Powell

********************

I trust you have now read the message from Tom King in Fiji.  I know that Nai'a is on its way, I got a *very* brief message this morning.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:55:22 EDT
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Purple

Tom Abran wrote:

> I know that U.S. intelligence broke the Japanese code and deciphered
> all of their transmissions. Does anyone know when this happened?

This was near the start of the war, not much before, with the acquisition of the so-called PURPLE machine, a Japanese cypher system, 97-shiki Oubun Injiki. But even then, without the key codes, the system was of only limited use -- it did, however, give great insight into the Japanese philosophy of cryptography.

The real revolution happened in the months leading up to Midway in 1942 when Admiral Yamamoto transmitted a series of messages (actually involving over 45,000 codegroups!). It took months for the small, basement team of US intelligence analysts with IBM machines and punch cards to get, finally, 90% of the coded messages deciphered. This lead to the first real success of the US codebreaking effort, culminating in the defeat of the Japanese fleet at Midway.

The reason that US codebreaking skills were so poor prior to that date was that leading up the WWII, the codebreaking side of things was quite underfunded within the military and foreign policy systems. "Gentlemen do not read other gentlemen's mail." -- that was the quote from the then Secretary of State, Harold Stimpson (I believe that was the name). Later, after he became Secretary of War, suddenly he had a change of heart -- it was, after all, wartime and we were dealing with the Axis powers.

Anyway, I think that it would be quite unfounded to have any belief or hope that Japanese message traffic about Amelia's last flight would have been intercepted, recorded, and deciphered -- in actual fact, given the true nature of the time, it seems to me quite unfounded that any of those messages would have been sent in code anyway.

Thomas Van Hare

*********************

Thanks, Tom, very complete.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:59:19 EDT
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      USS Bushnell

Here is some more data from the Archives run we just completed, this being from two separate ships, the Bushnell and the Balsam.

The logs of the "Survey Vessel" USS Bushnell were made during 1939. These are a few outtakes as well as a couple of notes. It is of interest that the Bushnell made repeated landings of supplies, men, and equipment, through November 1939 and December 1939 on Gardner Island.

To give a flavor of the logs, some of the pertinent portions read as follows:

Saturday, 4 November 1939
-------------------------
12 to 16 (ed. note: time of day)
Steaming as before on course 002 degrees T., 003 degrees PGC, 252 degrees PSC, at standard speed 10 knows, 92.7 R.P.M. 1206 Sighted Gardner Island bearing 005 degrees T., distance 13 miles. 1340 Ahead 2/3 standard speed. 1349 Stopped. Lying to off Gardner Island. Sent party ashore to make reconnaissance of landing and island. Average steam 200. Average R.P.M. 42.5.
    V. L. LOWRANCE, Lieutenant, U.S. Navy.

16 to 20
Lying to as before off Gardner Island, landing equipment. 1904 Underway on course 271 degrees T. and GC, 259 degrees PSC, at standard speed 8 knots, 73 R.P.M., to run night sounding line. 1935 Changed course to 177 degrees T. and PGC, 166 degrees T PSC. 1951 Took departure from Gardner /Island with wreck bearing 058 1/2 degrees T., distant 5.5 miles. Average steam 200. Average R.P.M. 22.8.
    T.D. SHRIVER, Lieutenant (jg), U.S. Navy.

Sunday, 5 November 1939
-------------------------
4 to 8
Steaming as before on course 003 degrees T. and PGC, 353 degrees PSC, at 8 knots, 73 R.P.M. 0447 Changed course to 089 degrees T. and PGC, 078 degrees PSC. 0530 Sighted Gardner Island, left tangent bearing 091 degrees T. and right tangent bearing 100 1/2 degrees T., distant approximately 10 miles. 0640 Changed course to 110 degrees T. and PGC, 100 degrees PSC. 0650 Commenced steering various courses at various speeds, approaching west side of Gardner Island, Captain conning, navigator on the bridge. 0700 Mustered crew on stations; no absentees. 0708 Stopped, lying to, lower # MWB. 0715 Lowered #1 MWB. 0730 Hoisted out WB and one A.C. surf boat. 0742 #2 MWB with WB in tow left ship with equipmenet for shore party. 0743 #1 MWB left ship with A.C. surf boat in tow. Average steam 200.  Average R.P.M. 54.6.
    J.H. FORTUNE, Lieutenant (jg), U.S. Navy.

8 to 12
Lying to as before to westward of Gardner Island, using engines as necessary to maintain position. All boats transporting tower parts, supplies and equipment to the beach. Made daily inspection of magazines and detonator boxes; conditions normal. Average steam 200.
    B.B. CHEATHAM, Lieutenant (jg), U.S. Navy.

12 to 16
Lying to as before to westward of Gardner Island, using engines as necessary to maintain position. Average steam 200.
    T.D. SHRIVER, Lieutenant (jg), U.S. Navy.

16 to 20
Lying to as before. 1738 Ahead at standard speed 8 knots, 73 R.P.M., on course 158 degrees T., 159 degrees PGC, 148 degrees PSC, on passage Gardner Island to Carondelet Reef. 1730 Took departure from Gardner Island; wreck bearing 037 degrees T., distant 4 miles (ed. note: this wreck is probably the S.S. Norwich). 1742 Commenced sounding line. 1747 Changed course to 152 degrees T., 153 degrees PGC, and 143 degrees PSC. Average steam 200. Average R.P.M. 40.
    W.V. PRATT, Lieutenant (jg), U.S. Navy.

=============================

...and the logs continue in this way for quite some pages.

If anyone sees anything of interest in this, please let me know. I could type even more entries for those interested. I would think that there should be some focus on the entry on 28th of November 1939, where:

"1401 Discontinued running sounding lines, stood in toward lagoon entrace and stopped. Lying to. 1410 Commenced lowering boat and loading equipment for shore party. 1512 Lagoon survey party, with Lt. (jg) J. H. Fortune, U.S. Navy, in charge, left ship with equipment, provisions, and water for 23 men for 7 days." -- on Gardner Island.

We now have complete crew lists for the ship as part of the log.

=======================
Now jump ahead to 1944:
=======================
Here is the entry in the logs for the USCGC BALSAM, which took on men for transportation to Gardner Island on 23 July 1944 and dropped them there on the 24th:

"The following men reported aboard for transportation to Gardner Island:

Lt. (jg) J. H. McGuire, USCGR; Ensign Charles Sopko, USCG; TURNER, Louis R.(522-544)C.M.1c; BIDZILLA, Peter(546-481)MoMM1c; BRASSER, Benedict J.(247-2280)C.M.1c; BREECH, William E.(665-742)S.C.1c; BURFORD, Glen L.(571-878)Sea.1c; DINKO, George(670-030)Sea.1c; EBEL, Albert V.(503-150)MoMM2c; FOREMAN, Kenneth E.(532-442)B.M.1c; JAMES, Jimmie F.(7009-396)F.1c; JAMES, Robert T.(598-184)MoMM3c; JOHNSON, Virgil L.(590-905)MoMM2c; LOWE, Donald P.(580-952)PhM3c; STASNEY, Gordon C.(535-736)C.M.2c; WAYCASY, Harry(527-710)MoMM3c; ZUKOWSKI, Raymond L.(666-903)Sea.1c:Ref- HQ/L 8 January, 1944 (POA)(CG-71-72-73-531)(Confidential). Also two (2) passengers for the British Government. Authority of Command Unit 203."

==============

And that is about all she wrote. Much of this is probably rehash for the TIGHAR group, but is is interesting to note that there are no conclusions or mind-shattering discoveries in these logs -- does anyone see any significance that I am missing with regard to the November and December 1939 activities of the Bushnell hydrographic survey ship? Should we go back in and see if any of images or records remain (not likely) of the Bushnell's shore party activities? Also of note is that, if I am not mistaken, the shore party on the 28th of November would have put ashore not far from where Ric and the party are going to be shortly....

Thomas Van Hare
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:58:13 EDT
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: Purple

>I know that U.S. intelligence broke the Japanese code and deciphered
>all of their transmissions. Does anyone know when this happened?

The US was reading Japanese diplomatic code just before Pearl Harbor (Dec 1941) and had their naval codes by late April 1942, in time for the Battle of the Coral Sea in the first week of May.

william
#2243
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:01:05 EDT
From:         Bob Brown
Subject:      Suggestion

I have a suggestion.  How about an addition of a "stock" message with each digest, for those who read the list as a digest, with a brief status.  I don't mean current reports but just a brief abstract stating that previous expeditions have found some artifacts and now another expedition has been launched.  I am suggesting it for any new readers who may not have the history of this very active forum. Bob

***************************

It's a thought. I'll have to look into the technical aspects, the software interface for this maillist is a bear.

Meanwhile, for anyone wishing an overview, I strongly urge that you go read the Highlights, which date all the way back to the beginning of the list.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:03:45 EDT
From:         Tom Abran
Subject:      Divebomber

Jack J wrote:

>According to "Lockheed Aircraft since 1913," by Rene J. Francillon,
>there were 15 Lockheed model 10-E's built. The pressurized Electra, c/n
>3501, was designated the XC-35 and was a "one-off" model of the Electra
>series. The construction number, c/n-35 was a special number assigned by
>Lockheed, rather than falling within the series 1000 to 1148 range of all
>the other Electra's. The aircraft was ordered by the War Department for
>research relative to pressurized cabins. The aircraft still exists, and is
>part of the collection at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC.

The pressurized Electra, XC-35, has a featured role in the movie "Divebomber" (1941). The movie stars Errol Flynn as a military doctor, trying to prevent pilot blackouts. Fred MacMurray plays one of the test pilots. (The Electra plays itself.)

One of the more memorable scenes is a test flight of the new, pressurized aircraft. Although the interior shots are all soundstage sets, there is some great footage of the real thing. (Olive Drab does nothing for an Electra!)   -   Tom Abran (#2296)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:04:56 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Re: Intercepting Japanese code

Re: Tom Abran's post of 7/6/99

The U.S. Navy established a covert, advanced radio listening post on Guam in 1928 to intercept Japanese Naval Fleet radio transmissions. This post was in operation through 1941, until the Japanese invaded & captured the island in early 1942.

I've obtained a copy of special edition CRYPTOLOG, a publication of the U.S. Naval Crytologic Veterans Assoc., titled: Special Edition for Guam/Fall 1993, which provides a very comprehensive view of the listening post operation, through stories from individuals serving on Guam during that time frame. Unfortunately, none of the writers in this edition were stationed on the island during 1937, however I still hope to I.D. any personnel who were serving duty at that time & try to interview them (if still living) regarding any "unusual" radio traffic emanating from the Japanese Naval units in the area at the time of AE's flight.

Actually, none of the personnel on the island (in the 1930's) was able to deciper or translate the messages they intercepted & all of the traffic accumulated was shipped to Washington, D.C. in bundles, with much of the intercept traffic never being deciphered or translated, as it was generally regarded as "routine" unless it pertained to any large scale, Japanese Fleet operation. (Most of the work accomplished by the station ("Baker") was to try & identify & locate individual Japanese ships in the fleet by monitoring their radio transmissions, even though they were unable to "read" the messages themselves.)

One interesting sidelight revealed the fact that the Navy personnel from the listening post operated their own "Ham" station from the island & regularly communicated with Hawaii & San Francisco. (I hope to be able to I.D. any survivors & talk to them about whether they ever "scanned" the frequencies used by the AE flight during the Lae to Howland leg of the flight.)

In one of the articles, written by a sailor stationed on the island, the fear was expressed that the Japanese on the mandated islands surrounding Guam were aware of their operations on the island & wondered what would happen to them if war came & they were captured. (Another sailor, actually captured when the island was invaded, insisted the personnel manning the listening post were treated no differently (lousy) than the other, civilian personnel on the island.)

Recently, the question has arisen as to whether the British Navy or Intelligence may have operated a similar "listening post" in the Gilberts, as they had in Singapore. So far I've uncovered no evidence that they did, but I'm still searching.

Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:31:05 EDT
From:         Bob Perry
Subject:      Re: Purple

The Purple code was introduced in February, 1939 and was broken 18 mo. later, i.e., August, 1940.  Many Japanese diplomatic messages, which used earlier codes, were being regularly deciphered as early as 1936.

Bob
#2021
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:32:05 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      TIGHAR license plates

Pat asked:  "I wonder what sort of license plate holder TIGHAR ought to produce...."

How about one of polished aircraft-grade aluminum with the blue TIGHAR logo and a black tagline (a couple of these might be a little pretentious, but what the hell . . .):

        A.  "To Save From Mistaken Zeal"
        B.  "All Dead Aircraft Go To Heaven"
        C.  "Archeology On The Wing"
        D.  "History IS Important"
        E.  "Aviation Archeology With An Attitude"
        F.  "Find 'Em, Save 'Em, Love 'Em"
        G.  "Rewriting History"
        H.  "History, Preservation, Knowledge"

        OK, ya'll get the idea . . .let's see some more entries here!

        LTM, a reformed (advertising) copy writer
        Dennis McGee #0149CE

**********************************

You know, I have this sinking feeling that I'll be sorry I brought this up....

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:32:45 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Gardner Island Surveys

Tom Van Hare:

Are you talking about the 1939/40 Bushnell Surveys?  I have made negatives of the original boat sheets from the National Archives Map collections.

The field notes associated with those surveys are lost in the National Archives: I uncovered the documents transmitting them to the Archives, and the boxes that should contain them stop immediately prior to the Gardner Island survey.  Sigh.  I was looking at the Suitland Annex, prior to their movement to NARA II.  Good luck, I know I didn't have any!
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:33:21 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      Re: Pan Am, Noonan and Gatty

That book has been out for over a year. It is one of the best sources of info/details on the Clippers across the Pacific.. Many details and pictures and the first cover mail details and the personal stories of two  specific people make the book a very good addition to anyones library... It will be reprinted this year to correct a number of errors,typos, etc....

Jim Tierney
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:35:00 EDT
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      Japanese Codes

Red Book, Blue Book, Purple.

Red Book;    Cover name for the " Imperial Japanese Navy Secret Operations Code- 1918." "The 'Red Book' remained in effect until 30 November 1930." "Naval Intelligence obtained a photostat copy in 1921 or 1922 and a later photostat copy, including recent changes, in 1926 or 1927. This code was translated in the Navy Department by Dr. B.C. Haworth, assisted by his wife, and the translation was typed by Miss Castleman and Mrs. DuVerger. The original translation was completed early in 1926, but Dr. Haworth was permitted to verify the translation of the vocabulary, and did not complete his final translation until 1927.". The code contained 100,000 expressions, 10 volumes, 2 copies typed in 1927. Retyped in 1929 into " red buckram Mc Bee Binders",  2 volumes. 4 copies were made.

  Blue Book;    "The ' Blue Book ' ( named after the color of its binder ). was our covering name for the 1930 edition of the Japanese Navy  Secret Code, which was effective from 1 December 1930 until 31 October 1938. We acquired this code the 'hard way' - that is, by cryptographic analysis and reconstruction.".  "The code consisted of about 85,000 code groups." "It was used only with super-encipherment,.....".
Distribution of Blue Book:

Navy Department (OP-20-G)

CINCAF

COM 16

COM 14

    Purple code  was in effect just before and during WWII.

   Source Capt. L.F. Safford U.S. Navy : SRH- 305.

   The same Safford that some believe can't tell the difference between GCT and GMT.

Daryll

****************************

Can any of this be verified from other sources? or is this just Safford's recollections?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:37:19 EDT
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      Postal covers and the Earhart flight

Hi Pat, keep fielding those grounders.  You're doing just fine.

Somewhere in the dark recesses of my memory is the notion that AE & FN were carrying some number of special round the world airmail covers to be specially marked and posted by the Postal Service or some other entity.  My recollection is that these postal covers were to be sold after the flight to help pay for the costs.

What is the real story behind this memory, can anyone help me out?

Seems to me that if the Electra came to rest on Niku, and if the locals scavenged aluminum from it, they would also have come up with these postal covers, if in fact they were still being carried in the plane.  Have any of the former residents been queried as to having or seeing such an item? Granted, paper doesn't last too long out there, but if one surfaced and could be verified as authentic, we would have a smoking gun to work with.

Andrew McKenna  1045C

***********************************

Well, the postal covers did exist, and were aboard the plane. That's all we can say about them at this time. They were supposedly wrapped well.... I guess it's *conceivable* they would exist, at least in the sense of being identifiable in a forensic lab. We've never heard of any stories concerning paper, and frankly, I wouldn't think the Gilbertese settlers would have much use for or concern with paper.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:38:11 EDT
From:         Jeff Glickman
Subject:      Re: Purple

complete information regarding purple remains classified to this day.


Jeff Glickman
Emergent Computer Corporation
*****************************

!!!!!! thanks, Jeff.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:40:41 EDT
From:         Pat
Subject:      If you're looking for Mike Everette

If you are looking for Mike Everette, he called today to tell us he's had a glitch in his email and will be getting it sorted out soon. As soon as he is back on line he'll let me know and I'll let everyone else know.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:03:41 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: License plate holders

> Thanks, Pat.
>
> I wonder what sort of license plate holder TIGHAR ought to produce....
>
> P

TIGHAR - CAN YOU DIG IT?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:02:45 EDT
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: TIGHAR license plates

Only one plate holder tagline would be appropriate, in my most humble opinion:

"Love to Mother"

******************************

You're right, of course :-)

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:05:27 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: USS Bushnell

I see a lot to be discovered here.  If nothing else, we will rule out that this ship DID see the Electra or even any sign of habitation.  ANY INFORMATION FROM GARDNER should be of EXTREME INTEREST and every tidbit should be studied to insure that it does not pertain to the matter of interest.  Is it possible that the Bushnell or Balsam is the ship from which came our mystery photo?  Crew lists should be scanned for all survivors and surviving family members for diaries, photos, etc.  After all, even if there are no entries in the "official" logs, many servicemen kept diaries and may have included info not contained in "official" logs.

Blue Skies & LTM,
Dave Bush
#2200
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:07:45 EDT
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Re: Purple

Ronald Clark's "The Man Who Broke Purple", Little, Brown & Co., 1977, says Japanese naval codes were "Red"  and the US Navy had the standard solution to them by the start of 1939.  We began receiving "Purple" at that time but only succeeded in deciphering it on Sept. 25, 1940.  This was done by Col. Wm F. Friedman.  This may not be very helpful.  Clark says "the Japanese had nearly a hundred (codes) by the 1940's".  I think it's safe to say that all sorts of people and places were intercepting ciphered messages since away before radio was invented.  This hardly brings us any closer to who - and with what equipment - was eavesdropping in 1937.  One problem with our quest is that 3105 & 6210 kHz were standard aircraft frequencies used by US planes - & undoubtedly others - around the world.  This would limit the number of stations listening to them.
LTM
Bill Moffet  2156

********************************

Yes, it's worth recalling at this point that the frequencies used by Earhart were absolutely standard---she was hardly trying to hide.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:09:18 EDT
From:         Jon Greenberg
Subject:      Re: TIGHAR license plates

Pat, it's a great idea.  We can't all afford models, but license plate holders are another matter. How about one like the Earhart Project Fund donation card: Earhart Project logo, Niku IIII logo, and "Courage is the Price."

LTM,

Jon Greenberg 2047
*******************************

Tell ya what, guys, I'll look into it a bit and see what the realities are. Sometimes stuff like this you can only order in lots of 500 or something dumb, which we can't really do, but if it's possible to get a small enough order at a reasonable price, maybe we can do it.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:14:30 EDT
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Re: TIGHAR License Plate Holders

I kinda like, "Archeology  On The Wing."

Another fund raising project ??

Roger Kelley #2112

###################

And a couple more from Dave Bush:

WHERE'S AMELIA?
ONLY THE TIGHAR KNOWS

TIGHAR FLIES

#####################

And from Patrick Gaston, a veritable fountain:

Take your pick of the following:

"TIGHARS do it

    ... on Niku"
    ... in Size 9 blucher oxfords"
    ... from 157 to 337"
    ... but the Japanese didn't"
    ... on 6210 kc, or was it 3105?"
    ... for Gallagher, too"
    ... with their wheels down"
    ... and have volumes to tell"
    ... on the fourth attempt"
    ... for The Fun of It"

Please pardon the questionable taste of some of the foregoing.  It's late.

LTM (Whose license-plate holder reads, "MY DAUGHTER SOLOED ACROSS THE ATLANTIC AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS STINKING LICENSE-PLATE HOLDER")

Patrick Gaston

####################

From Tom Van Hare:

All I can think of is...

   "To Earhart is Human, To Find Her - Devine"
   "Noonan is my CoPilot (ok, navigator - close enough)"
   "Nikumararo Beach Club"

Thomas Van Hare
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:17:36 EDT
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Ships and small worlds

I guess this is neither here nor there, but the name popped out at me. I worked for RADM V.L. Lowrance as a member of the Marine Detachment on board the U.S.S. Bremerton in 1958, a small world, no?

Marty Joy
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:20:38 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Postal covers and the Earhart flight

>Well, the postal covers did exist, and were aboard the plane. That's all
>we can say about them at this time. They were supposedly wrapped well....
>I guess it's *conceivable* they would exist, at least in the sense of
>being identifiable in a forensic lab. We've never heard of any stories
>concerning paper, and frankly, I wouldn't think the Gilbertese settlers
>would have much use for or concern with paper.

Ah, but these were interesting pieces of paper with curious pictures.. and colorful stamps, If I really know what a postal cover is.  I doubt any would still exist but they might be remembered.

*********************************

Well, these were folks who were working very very hard at putting together a village and a life in a way they couldn't have back home... they weren't "savages" or kids, just hardworking guys; I can't really see them as being amazed by colored printing ..... but you may be right, who knows.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:21:55 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Re: Purple

Here is a very comprehensive paper, authored by Capt. Duane L. Whitlock, USN Ret. & published by the Naval War College Review (Autumn issue/1995), covering the history of the U.S.Navy's involvement in the interception, deciphering & translation of the various Japanese diplomatic & military codes, from post WWI through WWII.
**********************************************
The Silent War against the Japanese Navy
Address:http://metalab.unc.edu/pha/ultra/nwc-01.html Changed:11:03 AM on
Wednesday, April 30, 1997
***********************************************
Don Neumann

*********************************

Randy/Bob/whoever, do you have time to take a look at this?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:23:37 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Re: Purple

Another excellent source of information about the U.S. Navy's codebreaking efforts prior to & during WWII is a book authored by Rear Admiral Edwin T. Layton, USN (Ret.), titled: "And I Was There"....Pearl Harbor & Midway-Breaking the Secrets.

Admiral Layton was the Pacific Fleet's Intelligence officer for Adm. Kimmel at the time of the Pearl Harbor raid & continued in the same capacity for Adm. Nimitz through the end of the war.

His book provides some very interesting insights regarding the Navy's cryptological efforts as well as the personalities involved, he also spent time in Japan (during the same timeframe as the Earhart/Noonan flight) & enjoyed a good personal relationship with Adm. Yamamoto, during his tour in Japan.

Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:22:33 EDT
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Gardner Island Surveys

> Are you talking about the 1939/40 Bushnell Surveys?  I have made
> negatives of the original boat sheets from the National Archives Map
> collections.  The field notes associated with those surveys are lost
> in the National Archives....

That confirms our findings as well. We have charts, but all documents are apparently lost. We've covered extensive ground across the NARA system and can't find them either.

Thomas Van Hare
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:26:05 EDT
From:         John Dipippo
Subject:      The Man in the White Shirt

Does anyone have any info on who the man in the white shirt was that watched ae&fn take off from Lae on the last leg of the flight?

*********************

Anyone? I think this came up earlier and no one could pinpoint it. Ric probably knows. I sure don't.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:27:46 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      License plate holders

Or maybe  . . .
        "The First and Best in Aviation Archeology"

        "Dig It, Baby!" (Austin Powers would understand)

        "Going To Any Lengths"

        "High Flight Revisited"

        LTM, who will not tolerate double entendre
        Dennis McGee #0149CE
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:03:09 EDT
From:         Barb Norris
Subject:      Report from Fiji

Bula.  Fiji is 8 hours behind and one day ahead of you.

We have an interview today with a New Zealand magazine; thought I'd try to make a deal of the Kiwi survey party, but have little info here so thought I'd refer them to you for details.  So -- be forewarned you may get something from them about dates, people, etc..  Hope this info is at hand.

If nothing else, we're providing good media coverage; the press is really jazzed by the bones.

LTM

Barb and Tom
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:03:51 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Another Report From Fiji

Maybe it's a good sign that today we talked with someone who had seen the sextant box.  Foua Tofinga was an officer of the Western Pacific High Commission -- knew Gallagher, Sir Harry Luke, et al, has been on Niku, and was involved in closing down the WPHC and shipping away its files.  We were talking of Sir Harry's deputy, Vaskess, and he said "Oh, I've seen that box.  Mr. Vaskess kept it on his desk, on top of his papers.  A red-brown box, rather shiny, maybe from being dusted a lot."  He doesn't know what happened to it, but Vaskess died here, and Mr. Tofinga has identified his last residence, which is only about a block from where we're staying.  He didn't know about the bones box. He gave us a great deal of useful information, though, and we'll doubtless be talking with him again.  Tomorrow we plan to interview Sir Leonard Usher, who was apparently here during the War and was the Queen's representative during the negotiations leading to Fiji's independence.  Progress is being made.  No word from Nai'a.

LTM (who would like to have that box)

Tom and Barb (who would wrist-wrestle Mom for it)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:05:01 EDT
From:         Mike Muenich
Subject:      Re: Fiji Expedition

Has anyone checked the cemetery records for unknown interments after the bones arrived in Fiji?  Does Fiji have a "potters field" for interments of unidentified, poor, or transient remains?  If so, who maintains those records.  Given their nature, I can't believe the British would throw away or dispose of human remains "improperly".  Given the report issued on the bones, it doesn't appear that they were sent on to Australia and I don't see the British "saving" them, but I could see them "properly" burying them.

**************************

Tom and Kar/Barb/Kris are checking on this.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:15:02 EDT
From:         Mike Muenich
Subject:      Re: code breaking

Mr. neumann beat me to the system reference Layton's book.  It has a fairly detailed history of code-breaking between 1925 and 1941, identifies the various naval codes, the listening stations, and addresses some of the British and Dutch efforts.  It is worth a review to identify where to look for some of the messages and radio traffic in early July 1937
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:16:01 EDT
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      Who's listening?

This is in response to Bill Moffet's Thu. July 8 posting.

>.......This hardly brings us any closer to who - and with what
>equipment - was eavesdropping in 1937. One problem with our quest is
>that 3105 & 6210 kHz were standard aircraft frequencies used by US
>planes - & undoubtedly others - around the world. This would limit the
>number of stations listening to them."

The following, I believe, is an order issued by Comdr. Safford himself at the beginning of AE's first around-the-world attempt. It should be noted that AE's frequencies that she used is in the high frequency band. It is this same high frequency band that the Navy felt carried the most radio traffic that contained significant intelligence information.
_____________________________________

OP-20-GX / AFC (Br 27)              RESTRICTED

From:  OPNAV          ACTION: COMTWELVE

Released by:  Comdr. McClaran  Date 13 MARCH  1937

0013   IF PRACTICAL TRACK EARHART PLANE BY HIGH FREQUENCY DIRECTION
FINDERS AVAILABLE       PURPOSE OF THIS TRACKING FOR FURTHER COMPARATIVE
TESTS NAVY AND PAA EQUIPMENT 1310
_____________________________________

Daryll
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:16:43 EDT
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      A resource available

To forum members: This may or may not be relevant to the topic. I have in my custody via interlibrary loan two large volumes titled 'Combat Connected Naval Casualties in WWII' until 14 July if anyone needs a name looked up. Catch is it is indexed by home state of the serviceman. I already checked all states for Seaman J.L. Marks of the Colorado - not listed. E-mail me at  if needed.

Smooth Sailing
Ron Dawson 2126
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:18:50 EDT
From:         Bob Brandenburg
Subject:      Re: Purple

Pat:

I'll be glad to have a look.  Happens to be up one of my alleys.

Bob

>From Don Neumann
>
> Here is a very comprehensive paper, authored by Capt. Duane L. Whitlock,
> USN Ret. & published by the Naval War College Review (Autumn
> issue/1995), covering the history of the U.S.Navy's involvement in the
> interception, deciphering & translation of the various Japanese
> diplomatic & military codes, from post WWI through WWII.
> **********************************************
> The Silent War against the Japanese Navy
> Address:http://metalab.unc.edu/pha/ultra/nwc-01.html Changed:11:03 AM on
> Wednesday, April 30, 1997
> ***********************************************

*******************************

Thanks, Bob, and keep us all posted.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:21:47 EDT
From:         Max Standridge
Subject:      Headline.

(From Pat: Why do I have a feeling I will deeply regret posting this?)

HONOLULU (ap)
        A startled TIGHAR team was met on the beach at Niku Atoll today by the long-missing Amelia Earhart.
        Team members said they were surprised to see Amelia, alongside her navigator, Fred Noonan.
        Smiling and laughing loudly, Amelia and Fred finally greeted the team, which they said they've been observing off and on, from a secret vantage point on the atoll, for many, many years.
        "We made the Pacific Islands our home," the long-sought missing aviatrix said joyfully.
        "We are just so happy out here and life is so simple. We've traveled from island to island in our small boat," she said, referring to the craft that she and Noonan had constructed from parts of their aircraft.
        The pair landed on Niku Atoll in July 1937, stayed there for many weeks and then made their decision to live forever in the Pacific Isles, unmolested by modern civilization.
        "We were in love anyway," Amelia revealed to the world. "What better way to fulfill our fantasy of perfect love, than to stay in these Pacific paradises forever?" the glowing aviatrix asked.
        For his part, Noonan said he has no regrets. Slapping expedition head Richard Gillespie on the back, Noonan said he was "sorry for any inconvenience to anyone."
        "We just had to do this," he said.
        After a brief visit with the team, the two said their adieus and departed in their craft for yet another Pacific islet, one of the thousands they've lived on over the years. They refused, however, to tell their  destination,  and Gillespie agreed not to reveal it to reporters.
        "It's better this way," he smiled.

****************************

Just in case.... OK, folks, this is a JOKE. All right?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:23:18 EDT
From:         Bob Perry
Subject:      Re: Purple

Thanks, Don, for pointing out what I believe is a prime, authoritative source on this subject: <<by Rear Admiral Edwin T. Layton, USN (Ret.), titled: "And I Was There....". >>

Whitlock's paper, based on a talk, is an interesting, brief story on activities of the time. Layton's book is an whole historical picture of intelligence activities of that era. That story, about which other authors (such as John Toland, "Infamy") have also written, goes way beyond the scope of this Forum. However,  it provides extremely fundamental lessons both on politics as well as human frailty that,  one hopes,  succeeding generations will have learned.

I think we've worked this one over, Pat.

Ltm,

Bob  #2021

*******************************

Hey, man, I'm just the conduit here... <G> But maybe it is time to show cause why this thread should be continued? Like relevance to the project?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:24:01 EDT
From:         Dean Alexander
Subject:      Re: USS Bushnell

> INTEREST and every tidbit should be studied
> to insure that it does not pertain to the matter of interest.  Is it possible
> that the Bushnell or Balsam is the ship
> from which came our mystery photo?  Crew lists should be scanned for all
> survivors and surviving family members for
> diaries, photos, etc.  After all, even if there are no entries in the
> "official" logs, many servicemen kept diaries and
> may have included info not contained in "official" logs.

I agree that this info. should be looked at however one must keep in mind that the Bushnell and/or Balsam went to Gardner fairly soon after Earhart's disappearance. Interest in her fate was still at a pretty high level until the war broke out.I would think that anything remotely resembling an aircraft( or anything that could have remotely been associated with Earhart) would have seen a LOT of interest, and would have been studied. Even in 1947 when the wreck photo was supposedly taken I would have thought that the people who took it would have somehow followed up on it. This fact makes me somewhat suspicious that the wreck photo was not Earhart's.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:25:12 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Purple

>From Don Neumann
>
>Another excellent source of information about the U.S.Navy's
>codebreaking efforts prior to & during WWII is a book authored by Rear
>Admiral Edwin T. Layton, USN (Ret.), titled: "And I Was There"....Pearl
>Harbor & Midway-Breaking the Secrets.

In my opinion, one of the finest first-person books about code-breaking efforts in the Pacific was "Double-Edged Secrets" by W.J. Holmes. Published by the Naval Institute Press, it's probably available from Amazon, B&N, etc.

(Layton's book was excellent, too)

Tom #2179

Tom Robison

***************************

As of the end of the day today, this thread will die---be forewarned.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:26:04 EDT
From:         Suzanne Astorino
Subject:      Re: License plate holders

I agree "love to mother" is it - I'd certainly be willing to buy one!

LTM,
Suzanne #2184

*********************

I'll make some phone calls.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:28:06 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Postal covers

I'm sorry to belabor the point, but there were children on Niku,  Children who (anecdote) played with the airplane wreckage that was there.  These are the ones who would still be around, somewhere, and who might remember the covers, if any were found.

Just curiosity...  Is it known what those covers looked like?  Anyone?

************************

Well, we've talked to some of those children, and they didn't mention anything, FWIW.

Don't know what the covers looked like.... does anyone?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:28:59 EDT
From:         Mike Rejsa
Subject:      Re: License plate holders

> From William Webster-Garman
> Only one plate holder tagline would be appropriate, in my most humble
> opinion:
> "Love to Mother"

That ones pretty hard to beat for class! Here's a few from me:
        "Around the world in 60 years"
        "TIGHARS do it with Amelia"
        "TIGHAR - it's Electrafinding!"

My thoughts and dreams are with the teams
In far off la-la land
Where sextant, shoe, and ship, and she
Lie buried in the sand

(It's hard to turn this stuff off when you get goin!)

Mike Rejsa
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:29:53 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Re: USS Bushnell

Re: Dave Bush post of 7/8/99

Dave makes a good point. Seems to me that any visitation to the island around the time frame including the date AE/FN would have landed there, should be investigated, especially if we can ID specific individuals who may have actually set foot on the island. If nothing else develops, we would at least have their descriptive recollections as to the physical appearance of the landscape & possibly be able to ruleout areas of the island they actually visited, as areas less likely to yield any useful material in our continuing search efforts.

Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:23:09 EDT
From:        Dennis McGee
Subject:      Update on Gallagher info?

Any word from our contacts in England who are trying to track down Gallagher's surviving (?) family members?  The last I heard they were hot on the heels of learning the identity of the vivacious and elusive "Ruby."  New info available?

        LTM, who thrives on information overload
        Dennis McGee #0149CE
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:25:53 EDT
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: USS Bushnell

Don Neumann wrote:

> Dave makes a good point. Seems to me that any visitation to the
> island around the time frame including the date AE/FN would have
> landed there, should be investigated, especially if we can ID
> specific individuals who may have actually set foot on the
> island.

Ok, here is the U.S.S. Bushnell officer list for the November-December 1939 period:

COLEMAN, W. B.       Commander          7-1-39  Commanding

WALTON, C. L.        Lieut-Comdr.      3-28-39  Executive Officer

MILLER, C. H. K.     Lieut-Comdr.      2-24-39  Navigator

HARTT, B. A.         Lieut-Comdr.      2-23-39  Eng. Officer
                                                3rd. Div. Officer
LOWRANCE, V. L.      Lieutenant         7-1-39  Astronomical Officer

FORTUNE, J. H., Fr.  Lieutenant (jg)    2-1-38  Gunnery Officer
                                                Sound Boat Off.

CHEATHAM, B. B.      Lieutenant (jg)    2-1-38  Sound Boat Officer

PRATT, W. V., 2nd    Lieutenant (jg)    2-1-38  1st Lieutenant
                                                Commun. Officer
CARROLL, H. F.       Lieutenant (jg)    3-7-38  Tower and Sig. Off.
                                                4th Div. Officer
SHRIVER, T. D.       Lieutenant (jg)   1-20-39  1st Div. Off.
                                                Sound Boat Off.
TALMAN, B. L. E.     Lieutenant (jg)    2-3-39  Sound Boat Off.
                                                Asst. Eng. Off.
HUBBARD, H. D.       Commander (MC)   12-30-37  Medical Officer

KLAUER, L. A.        Lieut-Comdr. (SC) 2-28-38  Supply Officer
                                                2nd Div. Off.

Again, though, I think that these leads have all been examined by others already, so it might be a good idea to ask around first.

Thomas Van Hare
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:26:48 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: USS Bushnell

I have copies of the Bushnell deck logs, including all servicemen aboard. Anyone in particular you would like me to look for?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:57:05 EDT
From:         Can Warren
Subject:      Re: the man in the White Shirt

I haven't watched the take-off film in some time, but if the man is not wearing a tie, it's most likely Eric Chater, Manager of Guinea Airways.  If striped tie (and the man's bald), that would be F.C. Jacobs of New Guinea Gold Fields; if patterned tie, it's L. I. Joubert, manager of Bulolo Gold Dredging Ltd.

re the Earhart souvenir covers, there's a b/w reproduction on page 247 of "Amelia, My Courageous Sister" by Morrissey/ Osborne.  Joe Gervais (Las Vegas) has a color copy of the only surviving example (no doubt mailed by a small Polynesian from Nikumaroro).

Cam Warren
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:58:05 EDT
From:         Phil Tanner
Subject:      Re: Update on Gallagher info?

>Any word from our contacts in England who are trying to track
>down Gallagher's surviving (?) family members?  The last I heard they
>were hot on the heels of learning the identity of the vivacious and
>elusive "Ruby."

Ruby Margetts was traced as a staff member of Malvern Girls' College, a music teacher, but it seems to have been a dead end - she was 20-odd years older than Gallagher and I don't think anyone established a link. I wrote to the chairman of the local hunt who replied that he had forwarded my letter to a leading local hunting figure with a huge knowledge of hunting families, but I heard no more. I spoke and exchanged a few emails with Deirdre Clancy, whose adoptive mother ran the nursing home in Malvern to which Gallagher's effects were sent, and her husband, but have had no contact after an initial flurry. She knew of Gallagher, which was interesting enough in itself, I suppose, but didn't seem to have anything germane to the Earhart search and didn't know anything about Ruby.  My effort to track down members of another offshoot of the family hasn't borne any fruit yet, but to date this consists only of a letter to the one person listed under the right surname in the right town. Again, no reply.

ltm Phil Tanner 2276
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:59:40 EDT
From:         Jerry Ross
Subject:      Re: USS Bushnell

[in response to the officer list for the Bushnell]

I see a lot of chiefs.  Where are the indians?

*******************

I dunno. Is there a complete crew roster available, or are the Other Ranks just an amorphous blob?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:05:29 EDT
From:         Randy Conrad
Subject:      Re: Another Report From Fiji

As I was reading the report from Fiji...it has occurred to me that maybe, and maybe just maybe...that you're looking in the wrong place. Yes, you are in the right country and looking in the right places; but just stop and think! Put yourself in Gallagher's shoes for a minute. You've found a sextant box and remains on a island; in most cases if you were a child and you found something neat in your backyard where would you keep it. In your little box of treasures! Did Gallagher have such a place! His resort home, a safe, a museum, or etc. Anyway, this is becoming exciting; but you have to stay focused on who the person is and what he would do with such a find! If I had such a box (box of bones), I would have them secretly looked at to see how old they are! Next, I'd probably put them in a place where no one could get to them! A museum vault until further notice maybe! Another thing, is these the only things that Gallagher had found! I haven't been up to date with his findings! Please, tell me more, about his travels to the island! Also, how big is this box? The size of a shoe box, a radio, or what? Also, does anyone know what happens to this wood after being exposed to moisture, or exposure to the elements over periods of years? Wanting to know!

                                 Give my love to mother,
                                       Randy

*************************

Randy, I think you need to read a good bit of the stuff on our web site. Exactly what Gallagher did with the bones is *NOT* in question---under orders, he forwarded them to the custody of the authorities in Fiji.

That's why we're looking in Fiji. Please see the Forum FAQs for most of the other answers to your questions.  http://www.tighar.org/forum/Forumfaq.html

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:06:34 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: USS Bushnell

> From Randy Jacobson
>
> I have copies of the Bushnell deck logs, including all servicemen aboard.
> Anyone in particular you would like me to look for?

Well, if no one has researched these, maybe their names should be provided to those who have the experience and knowledge  to research them, or put them on the forum in case any of us know of any of these people.  My wife's dad was in the Navy, but where he was stationed or what he did, none of us know. Guess we could try to find out from the gubmint, but I don't know where to start.

Blue Skies & LTM,
Dave Bush
#2200
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:08:42 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Gallagher/Clancy/Ruby

>From Dennis McGee
>
>        Any word from our contacts in England who are trying to track
>down Gallagher's surviving (?) family members?  The last I heard they
>were hot on the heels of learning the identity of the vivacious and
>elusive "Ruby."  New info available?

I guess it's time for an update. I'll try to get that posted this weekend.

As for Ruby, she has been identified but that doesn't get us anywhere. Ruby Helena Margetts was on the staff of the Malvern Girl's College.  She was a music teacher.  She was not the young woman we had supposed her to be. Her date of birth:  July 3, 1885.  Easily old enough to have been Gallagher's mother.

We have no idea what her relationship to Gallagher might have been.  I suspect it had to do with the horses and the stables.  Gallagher may have spent holidays with his aunt who ran the nursing home, "Clanmere" in Malvern and he may have been into horses and riding, as Ruby seemed to be.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:09:24 EDT
From:         Suzanne Astorino
Subject:      Re: real things

The quote about "the three things that are real" attributed to JFK was actually on a mug which Dave Powers gave to Kennedy as a birthday gift. I haven't been able to find an attributed source.

From an old Kennedy Campaigner,
Suzanne #2184
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:11:17 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: Lockheeds

Sorry folks, but there must be some geographical gap. Reading your comments on Linda Finch from across the Atlantic I feel you know something that I don't know. What has Linda Finch done that you wished her and her airplane at the bottom of the ocean ? All I know about her is that I saw her plane at the Le Bourget in 1997. It was a beautifully restored airplane. Wish I could afford one like this.

                                       Herman

***************************

Hyperbole, Herman. She didn't win a lot of friends with her approach to certain things, and she also has turned out to be not a really nice person in connection with her business life.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:11:52 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Re: USS Bushnell

Tom & Randy,

Re: USS BUSHNELL

Providing no one else has already ploughed this field, it would seem reasonable to try & determine those on the list who may still be alive. If we can ascertain the dates of birth for the crew members & whether the Navy still has any present addresses for them, it would facilitate to some extent any attempt at contact. Unfortunately, such efforts are very time consuming & there is a need to evaluate whether any information that might be developed justifies the time being spent pursuing same.

Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:12:02 EDT
From:         various
Subject:      Re: Headline

On the topic of Ric Meets Amelia and Fred:

from Don....

I knew it all along.

***************************

From William Dohenyguy

Hi:

     Find out what Max has been drinking and order me a case.

William LTM
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:24:26 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: USS Bushnell

I have the crew list for the Bushnell cruises, but it is too long to reproduce by hand transcription.  If someone wants a copy, they can contact me for a photocopy.  Didn't I give a copy to TIGHAR???

**************************

Randy, what you have given to Ric/TIGHAR is not necessarily known to me..... Ric's filing system is one of the great Mysteries. It certainly doesn't fall within MY job description <G>. I'm just the business manager.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:25:46 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: USS Bushnell

Personally, I don't believe that pursuing old crewmen of the Bushnell would be worth MY time, as memories get screwed up over the years.  I'd much rather try and find those original field notes, if I could!

*********************

Oh, yeah. I have to agree with Randy----unless someone kept a detailed day-by-day journal, it would just be stories. But those field notes.......

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:26:28 EDT
From:         Mark Cameron
Subject:      Re: USS Bushnell

If any crew members or their children (or anyone else we want to contact) turn out to be in the Chicago or Lake Michigan area, I would be glad to research and contact them for the Project --- my services are at your disposal 

Mark Cameron #2301
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:47:14 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Postal covers

>From Cam Warren
>
>re the Earhart souvenir covers, there's a b/w reproduction on
>page 247 of "Amelia, My Courageous Sister" by Morrissey/
>Osborne.  Joe Gervais (Las Vegas) has a color copy of the
>only surviving example (no doubt mailed by a small polynesian
>from Nikumaroro).

Yeah, I still wonder if we missed something by not asking those folks interviewed on Funafuti about those covers.  It's not the sort of thing they would remember, or associate with the "pieces of an airplane," if the subject was not brought up.

If the covers were remembered, it would change anecdotal generic airplane pieces to anecdotal Earhart airplane pieces.

Cam, do you know whether Joe Gervais would make a copy of his color copy available as a JPEG file, or as an on-paper copy?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:53:33 EDT
From:         Pat Robinson
Subject:      MIlitary records

To answer Dave Bush's question about his father-in-law being in the Navy (and not knowing where he was stationed, etc)...

How to obtain personnel records
Notice - By law records can only be released to the individual whose records they are, or if that individual is deceased, their next of kin.

Records of personnel separated more than 15 months ago

The Navy does not maintain the service records of individuals who have separated more than 15 months ago. These records are held by the National Personnel Records Center.

The National Personnel Records Center holds the official individual personnel records of:
Navy commissioned officers separated after 1902
Navy enlisted personnel separated after 1885

What is in these records:

These records include:
the full name of the serviceman
next of kin (at the time of service)
date of enlistment
date retired or separated
units with which served
and any medals and awards to which the veteran was entitled.

How to obtain these records:

Information from these records is available to the individual, or if deceased, to the next of kin. A separate request should be sent for each veteran. If signed by the next of kin, the relationship to the veteran must be specified and proof of death presented.

To expedite, getting information on an individual's naval career, you need download the Standard Form 180
<http://www.history.navy.mil/download/recform.pdf> [This is a .PDF file. To
view and print this file, obtain the free Adobe Acrobat
<http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html> reader if you don't
have it.]

Fill in the Standard Form 180 (SF 180). You will need to provide the following information: full name under which service was performed, service number and/or Social Security number, branch of service, dates of service, date and place of birth, and grade or rank at time of separation/retirement.

If the service number is unknown, you can usually locate it by sending the individual's name, his command, and when he served in a letter to the Military Reference Branch, National Archives, Washington, DC 20408. That office can usually determine the service number from the command's muster rolls or the list of officers in the deck log of a ship.

Send the completed form to:
The National Personnel Records Center
9700 Page Boulevard
St. Louis, Missouri 63132-5100
Phone: (314) 538-4141/3135/3071/3132
Record retrievals are an arduous process and may take a while.

The URL for this information is:

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/people/faq/.www/records.html

LTM (Who always wanted to know what dad was doing)

Pat (forgot my number)

************************

2239.  Thanks, Pat.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:54:37 EDT
From:         Pat
Subject:      Such news as there is

isn't much, but anyway they got there, have set up shop, and are working away. That's all I know, folks, except that the passage was rough enough that they were 24 hours behind, if I have my dates/times right.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:06:31 EDT
From:         R. Johnson
Subject:      Wreck Photo

I've been subscribing to this forum for six months. I have read every article on the web site and feel relatively informed on this subject. However, I can not find the origins of the wreck photo. I'm sure I must have overlooked it. How did it become published. Who recieved it originally. Who is thought to have taken it. How did TIGHAR find it, etc...?    Thanks for any information you can give me or direct me to.

R. Johnson

************************

Well, that's quite an oversight on our part. Sorry. In brief:  the wreck photo surfaced some ten years ago when a person (unknown, said to be a "British seaman") got in touch with an Earhart author, Geo. Carrington, saying he had a picture of a wrecked airplane that looked a lot like the pic of Earhart's aircraft on the cover of Carrington's book. Carrington got the photo and shopped it around here and there, trying to get it identified. We got a copy... through means that I probably shouldn't post on the Forum <G>.

The story that Carrington had to go with the pic, about the person who gave it to him and what that man said, does not track with reality in any way shape or form---so someone was kidding somebody. Randy probably remembers the details, but it has to do with a ship that wasn't where he said it was, and a crew member who isn't on that ship's roster, and so on.

I know this is brief, maybe someone else will fill in.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:11:03 EDT
From:         Gene Bialek
Subject:      Ham Stations

Just found a copy of the April 1937 issue of "Radio" magazine. It contains an article entitled "Amelia and Amateur Radio", that deals with the Ham radio network organized by W6NNR (Guy Dennis of Los Angles) to monitor AE's FIRST attempt at circumnavigation (east to west). It contains several interesting items, as follows:

"Already amateur radio has had a chance to prove its worth,  for on the first leg of the flight the plane was out of contact with the world for approximately four hours except for amateur station W6NNR, Los Angles. During that time two-way communication was maintained, with W6NNR on 75 meter phone and the plane, KHAQQ, on 3105kc phone and c.w."

   We know she had no c.w. capability on the second attempt (west to east). Did she have someone onboard who was c.w. capable on the first try?

[from Pat: Yes.]

   The article then goes on to give a long list of ham stations in and around the Pacific Ocean and states the following:

   "On Howland Island, next stop on the flight, is K6GNW, with whom W6NNR is keeping schedules".

  It might be interesting to find out who held the call letters K6GNW in 1937. What was that person doing on Howland and was he there in 1938 for the second flight?  I wonder if Randy J. knows the answers?

Gene Bialek

***************************

Randy, Mike E.?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:11:49 EDT
From:         Cam Warren
Subject:      Re; Postal covers

> Cam, do you know whether Joe Gervais would make a copy of his color copy
> available as a JPEG file, or as an on-paper copy?

Vern - I think you can get Gervais' phone number from Las Vegas information. (And he pronounces it Jer-vuss).

Cam Warren
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:12:35 EDT
From:         Jerry Ross
Subject:      Re: Military records

I suggest that the following URL (the source) be used to get a current copy of Standard Form 180:
http://www.nara.gov/regional/mprsf180.html
It is different than the one referenced yesterday and, I assume, a newer version. The custodian mailing addresses are certainly easier to read.

LTM

Jerry Ross
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:13:24 EDT
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      New E-mail address

To all my friends on the Forum:

My new e-mail address is:   xxxxx My old address is no longer in use so don't send any more msg to that one.

To those whom I have corresponded off-forum, please e-mail me with your addresses so that I can put them in a new file.

(By the way, ghostsignal isn't necessarily evocative of AE... it has another, earlier genesis.)

Now... to Ric & Company:  Best of luck! Let's silence the skeptics and naysayers.  Let's find Amelia!

73

Mike Everette
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:16:01 EDT
From:         William D
Subject:      Re: Info from Niku

Sorry, my cowl flaps were closed and I overheated.

William
LTM

***************************

That's ok. Actually, I had a message today. Seems that they (the ship, NOT us) took along a BRAND NEW, NEVER USED battery charger for the bridge radio....

Guess what.

So anyway, messages will be very very short and sweet, because they have to conserve battery........

LTM, who learned a loooong time ago, never take brand-new never-used anything into a critical situation unless you like the excitement that results....

Pat

PS----last time it was one of the watermakers.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:49:52 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Message from Fiji

Have viewed wooden box with bones, but they look like the wrong bones Masonic Lodge here has cranium and crossed femora mounted in wooden box used in rituals.  Said to be very old, lodge goes back 120 years. Cranium has both malars intact, no teeth, much absorption of bone tissue on maxilla.  Looks like an old individual; couldn't see sutures bec. mounted in box.  Femora are somewhat eroded.  If you want to look at this, I'm sure we can arrange it, but it doesn't look to me like any kind of match.

On other matters: a thought:  Have you corrected for changes in declination in plotting course from European House?

Kris has arrived safely, we're progressing, but no bones in hand.

Tom, Barb, Kris
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:53:04 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Gallagher/Clancy/Ruby Update.

Between postings by Phil Tanner and myself during the past few days, I believe this activity is pretty well updated.  I'll devote my attention to a rather comprehensive report on "The Gallagher Project" up to this point. Maybe it will be something for the 8th Edition although I'm not sure where it fits in the outline.

And I have a question.  What prompted the "Malvern Gazette" to print that front page article about the search for Clancy family members back in late March?  Both TIGHAR and Historic Wings are mentioned and Tom Van Hare is quoted.

Pat?   Tom Van Hare?
**************************

I dunno, actually. Maybe Tom does. I expect that it was one of those things where someone called the paper for information and ended up the subject of a story <G>.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:54:10 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Admiral Day

Today I received a reply by snailmail to my 6/24 request for information on the Admiral Day from Lloyd's Register. They were very interested in a possible link to the Earhart flight and offered help in further research by providing a lists with a multitude of institutions, museums and libraries that keep records on crew members. .

As for the vessel, here is what they provide

Name of vessel :                ADMIRAL DAY
former names :                  SUTERMCO
Official number :                       220531
Signal letters :                        KDDI
Rig description on type:                steel screw steamer
Shipbuilder :                   Subarine Boat Corporation
                                Newark, New Jersey, USA
Year :                          1920, completed August
Tonnage :
        gross                   3285
        net                     1997
        dedweight               3005 UnderdeckDimensions :
Length :                                324 fr.
Breadth:                        46.2 ft.
Depth :                         25 ft.
Engines
        type :                  geared steam turbine
Builder :                       Westinghouse Electric & Mfg. Co.
Port of Registry :              Samarai, Papua New Guinea
Flag :                          British
Registered Owner :              W.R. Carpenter Overseas Shipping Ltd
Manager (if known) :            -
Lloyd's Register Classification :       +100A1
Other classification (where applicable) : none
Other remarks :
        She was wrecked on 18th September 1940 ashore the North East corner of Canton Island (Phoenix Islands) while en route to port for registration. She was travelling from Crofton to Suva and Sydney with a cargo of lumber.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:42:09 EDT
From:         Pat
Subject:      The Electra Models

A couple of people suggested we should put the Electra models on E-bay, with a reserve, and see if we can expand the market. I just took a look at the web site... can someone clue me up *quickly*? I have a feeling there is more to it than just saying, gee, let's sell some models........

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:42:45 EDT
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: Ham Stations

Those Ham radio operators would be a valuable resource if tracked down. If any of them are not "silent keys," (that is ,deceased,) they may have valuable information in their radio logs pertaining to any monitored transmissions relevant to Amelia Earhart. the F.C.C. would know who the hams were, etc.  That could be a hot lead, for sure! Anybody find that info yet?

Best wishes to all,
Dr. Gene Dangelo, N3XKS,  # 2211    :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:17:30 EDT
From:         Clyde Miller
Subject:      Re: the Electra Models

I have bought quite a few things on ebay with great success.  To sell you will have to have a minimum bid price that you will be asking and then people bid against each other from around the world for the item over a set time frame.  A picture is very important in this case.  It is very easy to set up accounts and do business.  Good idea to sell maybe one and see how the bid goes.

Clyde Miller

**********************

Is it important what section or whatever you are listed in? What do you do when you are looking for stuff, do a search, or what? Enquiring minds want to know....

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:18:19 EDT
From:         Cam Warren
Subject:      Re: Ham stations and radio

Ham radio was the "official" communications medium for the Line Island "colonists".  Call letters assigned were K6GNW for Yat Fai Lum, K6ODC was Ah Kin Leong and K6GAS was Harry Lau (not a regular, he apparently joined the ITASCA cruise on his own nickel). Other stations were K6INF on Baker Island.  Two Honolulu hams were also in the loop; K6PAF and K6KPF.

Source of info, the ITASCA logs, et al.

Cam Warren
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:20:19 EDT
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      Re: The Electra Models

I reckon you will get some more responses to the ebay question, but here is my .02 worth. Easy to register and get a user ID. Insertion fee (a listing fee) is $2.00 for opening value or reserve of over $50.00. In addition, they charge a final value fee of 5% of first $25.00 and then 2.5%  of everything over $25.00 up to the winning bid. So, if it sold for, say, $400.00, fee would be $2.00 plus $10.63. Winning bidder pays shipping as specified in the item description. A dutch auction is one in which there are more than one of the identical item. You specify the opening bid or reserve price. The final value price is that of the lowest successful bidder. IExample, if there are five items and ten bidders, then the high five (which meet the reserve) are successful and the lowest bid of the five is the final value price.

If you want me to run a test auction, will be glad to do so as I have built up an ebay rating. Would need your lowest acceptable price, approximate delivery date, approximate shipping cost. I can make a link to the electra page on the website for graphics. Ebayers: feel free to  correct me if I mispoke on any details.

Smooth Sailing,
Ron 2126

*****************************

Ron, thanks so much, I think this would be a good intro for us. I will email you privately about details.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:26:37 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Ham radio

K6GNW was the amateur radio operator Yat Fai Lum, who corresponded to Honolulu and provided daily weather reports.

*********************

From Bob K6EMN

The Amateur Radio Station on Howland Island, K6GNW, was operated by a Hawaiian who was with a group of Hawaiians that were sent there by the government of Hawaii to colonize the island.  His purpose was as an emergency radio link for the colonists on the island.

Amelia had asked a man by the name of Walter McMenamy, call letters unknown, to help set up a net of radio amateurs to communicate with her around the world.  Guy Dennis, W6NNR (later changed to W6DI) and Karl Pierson W6BGH of the Patterson Radio Company were also recruited for this operation.  Other stations recruited around the world were: Frank Christman, W6ALJ; Charles Cheatham, W6CUU; Wally Gee, W6EGH; John Pitts, W6CQK and VS1AB, HS1PJ, VU2AX, ST2WF, PY7AA, PZ1AB, VP3BG, HP1A and XE1G.  After the take off crash in Hawaii, this group of amateurs were "pushed aside", plans changed, and their talents never utilized.

This information is from an article in CQ magazine by Bill Orr, W6SAI.

LTM

Bob, 0902 (and K6EMN)

******************************

Looks like we're set on this one.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:24:07 EDT
From:         Joe
Subject:      Re: Ham stations

If & when Tighar solves this 62 year mystery with 100% rock solid evidence.  Will we read about it on this site, BEFORE, AFTER, or the SAME TIME when it is released to the media?
Joe W3HNK

**************************

Let's put it this way:  approximately 27 seconds after we post it here, it would be, in effect, released to the media because there are several media types who are (silent) members of the Forum. We'll try to give youse guys a heads up, but ...

well, check your email, ok?

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:30:44 EDT
From:         Dave Porter
Subject:      "lost" Lockheed located at Ft. Benning, GA

I've just finished reading 6/25-7/12.  Glad to read that all arrived safely at Fiji & Niku.  As promised to Ric earlier, my check for $100 will be in the mail by the end of this week, with $20 extra for a TIGHAR t-shirt.

While at Fort Benning, GA for the last 2 1/2 weeks doing my Army Reserve thing, I ran across the remains of a Lockheed-- it was either an F-80 Shooting Star, or a T-33 (2 seat trainer of same)  I have yet to unpack my field notes and cross check against reference materials, but I do have a partial tail # written down.  Now for the bad part:  It's parked in the fenced off "Hazardous Materials Training Site" and appears to have been (cringe) set on fire from time to time to train firefighter crews in fighting aircraft fires--there is an army airfield on Ft. Benning.  (how's that for outfield chatter?)

For those interested in such things, I sadly report that Army Basic Training is getting, well... soft.  The Privates now wear elbow and knee pads whenever they are going to be on the ground (crawling, shooting prone, etc.) for any length of time, and in the Company I trained, an experiment was ongoing wherein a laser device was inserted in rifle barrels to attempt marksmanship training, in lieu of shooting real bullets--it was a dismal failure.  Consensus also has military bearing, courtesy, and discipline falling off due to lack of same being treated by "remedial training" rather than the old-fashioned P.T. "smoke session".  I guess they won't be calling me a Drill Sergeant much longer -- maybe a "soldierization facilitator."  This is at the Infantry School, so I imagine it's worse elsewhere.  I'd be curious to hear from some of you vets out there on the forum re the above. 

Sorry to have wandered so far afield...Godspeed and good hunting to all
TIGHARs now in the field.

LTM, Dave Porter, 2288

*************************

Well, I'm sure Ric will be horrified <G>---his tour at the Benning School for Boys is something he still describes with loathing.

If anyone would like to pursue these topics with Dave, use private email, this is off-topic (but interesting, I will admit).

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:34:13 EDT
From:         Shirley
Subject:      Re: The Electra Models

I too have done considerable buying and selling on eBay.  Any of the words in the description such as Earhart - Electra - model plane - etc. would be picked up when the search was entered.  Yes, Pat, there is a space that you enter a search  description for what you're looking for.  Then the items are bought up in a listing by description.  When one interests you, you link to the entire description and photo, if available, and the bidding form follows.  I often go to Amelia Earhart to see what's there.

Will be glad to help in any way you might like.

Shirley 2299

*********************************

sounds like the key words we need are Earhart, Electra, and model planes.... can anyone think of other categories/key words that someone (who doesn't know we exist) might search on and come up with us?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:38:03 EDT
From:         Cam Warren
Subject:      More hams

Actually, the Hawaiian hams were employed by the US Dept. of the Interior, and were customarily rotated back home and/or to the other islands on a regular basis.

Walter McMenamy, as it later turned out, never had a ham license and was more mouth than radio expert.  He apparently ingratiated himself to AE as that sort often does, and managed to garner a few headlines when he "identified" Amelia's voice on one or more of the post-loss messages.  He hung around with the LA hams and was thought to have an uncanny knack for picking signals out of the air that nobody else could read. The LA gang may have been fired when somebody got wise to Walter.

(Source: Goerner interviews with McMenamy, Pierson and others)

Cam

**************************

Your understanding of McMenamy certainly runs parallel to ours----all talk, lots of smoke, but no fire.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:41:48 EDT
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Hams with PAA in 1930s

In 1936, Pan American's staff at Wake Island included at least one ham radio operator who was quite active on the ham bands:  Bill Breuer, W6TE (used the call sign K6TE on Wake... back then all US ham calls were prefixed with W, and all overseas territories used K calls... this changed after WW2).

There is an interesting letter from Breuer, published in the January 1936 issue of Radio Magazine (which was also the one when the publication merged with R/9, another early ham 'zine... Radio was the surviving entity).  The letter describes life on Wake and the radio scene then.

I have not researched this yet, but I think we can get a history some place for call sign assignments.  The American Radio Relay League (ARRL) may have it.. also, the ham radio database on "QRZ" may be able to provide this info.   I'll check it tonight.  If anyone else wants to have a go, the web sites are:   www.arrl.org    and www.qrz.com

73

Mike E.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:51:30 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      News from Fiji

We're continuing to tick off likely locations, with no luck as yet, reaching a point of diminishing returns with physical searching, I think, in the absence of evidence from further archival research or interviews.  Kris Tague has arrived, and will give increased emphasis to archival research.  Lots and lots of archives to search.  Lots and lots of buildings, too, but we're running low on obviously likely ones.  Yesterday did work at a couple of the venues where the Central Medical School/Fiji School of Medicine has been located.  Basically got thrown out of the Colonial War Memorial Hospital (a story in itself), but inspected the FSM facility at Tamuvua, with emphasis on a tunnel thought to have been used for storage.  Kris and Barb, along with three brave volunteers, investigated the tunnels at length.  Immersed in endless darkness, they followed the twisting underground paths seaching for something of importance, only to find metal boxes of rusting hardware and a large rat or two.

Today we have a second interview with Foua Tofinga (thanks Peter MacQuarrie and Kent Spading for first putting us on to him).  He's also talked with Emily Sikuli, who he says is the daughter of the Nikumaroro village carpenter who built the kanawa wood box, remembers its construction.  We hope to interview her soon, hopefully before I leave tomorrow (Kris will be here for two more weeks, Barb for a few more days).

Re. Tom Van Hare's suggestion to get Foua to draw the sextant box -- ordinarily a good idea, but he's already seen the picture of the Pensacola box (has read TRACKS with great interest since we gave him copies).  Good in that it was seeing the picture that triggered his memory, bad in that any description he gives of the Vaskess box now really can't be assumed not to be influenced by what he's seen.  But I'll ask, and definitely plan to ask him about numbers.

We've pretty well decided, if the Museum agrees, to post a reward of F$500 (ca. US$300) for information, whether it gets to us before Kris leaves or to the Museum thereafter.  We're running out of places for US to search, but we've gotten enough people interested that if we post a reward now, telling what we're looking for in some detail, we'll have lots of people looking in places where we can't, or haven't thought to, look. And so far, we're under-budget, so have the opm to spare.

LTM (who hates tunnels)

Tom, Barb, Kris
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:40:48 EDT
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Linda Finch's Electra

I don't know where it is this minute, but it will be at the Muskegon (Michigan) Air Show July 16-17-18 in Muskegon, Michigan.  This is on Lake Michigan, about 1 hour east of Grand Rapids, Michigan.  Close to Chicago.
<http://www.co.muskegon.mi.us/airfair/>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:46:03 EDT
From:         Mike Muenich
Subject:      Re: Wreck photo

I have been reviewing a number of the old books on AE's disappearance.  If this ground has been plowed, I apoligize.  Goener states on page 66

"I remembered that Amelia had written in her notes which were mailed home before the final take-off from Lae, New Guinea, that she had been amazed to find a sister-ship to her own Lockheed Electra 10-E in service with the Guinea Airways Company at Lae"

Is there such a note and is the statement accurate?  Has this aircraft been accounted for?
------------------------------------------------------
from Pat.

I don't know much about the note, but Guinea Airways did indeed have three Electras in service. Two were sold some time later, it isn't quite clear what happened to the third; we suspect an accident of some kind. Guinea Airways was servicing the gold fields of New Guinea.
------------------------------------------------------

He then writes at page 286, referring to the contents of a State Department file

"Two other letters concerned equipment aboard the plane.  The engines carried by the Lockheed were not those listed in publicity releases to the public.  Two new Pratt & Whitney Senior Wasp military-version engines had been installed instead of the 550 h.p. Wasp Juniors.  The new engines gave the plane half again as much power and a cruising speed of 200 or more miles per hour."

Were there letters in a State Department file, if so, to whom and from whom were they written, are they accurate and what effect would they (the engines) have on fuel consumption, time and distance equations?  Would these engines have a effect on cowling configuration?

*************************************

I *think* Goerner had this all messed up. Can someone please rescue me here? I just don't have all this stuff at my fingertips the way Ric does.... :-(

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:50:15 EDT
From:         Bill Zorn
Subject:      Ideas

Ran across a strange little expression today at work, don't know if its something new or original or what, but I'm going to zap it out over the web, and see if it shows up out in the world somewhere. Has to do with, perhaps being out of ideas. Here goes.

I have a magic hat, but I'm all out of rabbits.

later
bill

*****************************

I like it.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:51:17 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Tracking down 1938 ham operators

If a list of 1938 ham operators is available from the FCC one could check it against the Social Security Death Index to find most of the one that are no longer living.  The index also gives (I think) the last address where they got SS checks.  One might be able to see if a surviving spouse had any radio logs available by writing to that address.

I don't have time to take this on as a project at present but perhaps one or more of the Forum members might.

Dick Pingrey 908C

*************************

Anyone?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:52:57 EDT
From:         Phil Tanner
Subject:      Handling the media

From Phil Tanner

I don't know if this is the general view, but I for one wouldn't mind in the slightest if news of any significant find now or in the future was released to the media before TIGHAR or Forum members, or was kept under wraps indefinitely. Maximum media effect to generate interest and future funding must be the priority. Not in the least surprised that Dr King and his team are doing a magnificent job in Fiji, but well done all the same.

LTM Phil 2276

******************************

Thanks, Phil, that's a very generous and TIGHAR-ish attitude <G>.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:58:17 EDT
From:         Ang.
Subject:      Re: Ham stations

>"Already amateur radio has had a chance to prove its worth,  for on the
>first leg of the flight the plane was out of contact with the world for
>approximately four hours except for amateur station W6NNR, Los Angles.
>During that time two-way communication was maintained, with W6NNR on 75
>meter phone and the plane, KHAQQ, on 3105kc phone and c.w."
>
>   We know she had no c.w. capability on the second attempt (west to east).
>Did she have someone onboard who was c.w. capable on the first try?

On the contrary. Chater in his July, 1937 report stated clearly that observed in the Lae New Guineas office that both Earhart and Noonan could not read code rapidly, but they could read it if it "were sent very slowly and letters or words were repeated  often". That would be about the way that our recent "novices" work (5wpm) in their struggle to get their code speed up. You have to remember that in those days, commercial radio operators prided themselves in 'reading code at 20 to 30 words per minute', hour after hour, typing continuously at times. Amelia and Fred knew they could never do that. Tragically, they also assumed that the consequence was that they should never rely on it.

Ang.

****************************

Well, I think this all depends on your interpretation of "c.w. capability". They had no telegraph key aboard the aircraft, so any code sent had to be sent by keying the mike.  And Earhart made it excruciatingly clear to all that they could not read code and would not be able to understand any messages sent in code, that all messages should be sent via voice.

All in all, I am not sure that had one of them been adept at code it would have made any difference, because our current hypothesis is that their receiving antenna was broken. But perhaps had they been able to send accurately, and had a key... maybe they could have communicated their position on Niku to the world with greater facility.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:00:19 EDT
From:         Dave Porter
Subject:      Buttonwood crew search news?

Since we're in kind of a holding pattern, with teams in the field and all, has there been any progress in locating any of Dan Skellie's crewmates from the USCG Buttonwood?  I remember that we hit a dead end with the ship's logs, and that a TIGHAR who was a former coastie was put in charge of trying to find other crew members who could confirm Dan's story of a Buttonwood visit to Gardner Island in 1947, which included, in his recollection, dropping off a passenger there.  Any news on that front?  Also, Mr. Skellie, I've seen you pop up on the forum from time to time-- any more details work their way out of your memory banks lately?

********************************

Who was on this? Any news/progress?

********************************

On a lighter note, in the face of imminent success ( all those "good feelings about this one" posted of late ) perhaps we can have a little fun casting the movie: in the tradition of aviation docudramas (see Hollywood's treatment of Gann's "Fate is the Hunter")-- "Finding Amelia Earhart: The TIGHAR Story" should have an all-star cast.  I submit the following:  others should feel free to add, subtract, or edit.

Mel Gibson as Ric Gillespie
Michelle Pfieffer as Pat Thrasher
Harrison Ford(archeologist Indiana Jones) as archeologist Tom King
Gillian Anderson (sometime FBI forensic anthropologist agent Dana Scully) as forensic anthropologist Karen Burns
Linda Hamilton as Barb Norris ('cause Barb "terminates" non-logical/critical thinking among her students)
David Rasche as Bruce Yoho (because I always thought "Sledge Hammer" was way, way under-rated)
Leonard Nimoy as Dan Skellie (because we all fondly remember the AE episode of "IN SEARCH OF")

FOR THE HISTORICAL FLASHBACK SCENES:
Sharon Lawrence and David Graf as AE & FN (they've got experience in the roles from that Star Trek-Voyager episode)
Kevin Bacon as Eric Chater (to keep that Kevin Bacon trivia game going)
Michael Ironside as Gerald Gallagher (his Hollywood career resembles  Gallagher's Phoenix Islands career-lots of good work, but...)
and finally, in a cameo role as Floyd Kilts--Ric Gillespie

LTM (love to movies) Dave Porter, 2288

***********************************

Why am I posting this? This is going to cause trouble, I can tell.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:02:07 EDT
From:         Mike Rejsa
Subject:      Re: ebay and key words

> sounds like the key words we need are Earhart, Electra, and model planes....

I would add Lockheed and TIGHAR. Something like "Earhart Lockheed Electra model plane by TIGHAR".

Off topic (but included for morale purposes) - I just yesterday succeeded in tracing an item stolen 30 years ago and passing thru many subsequent owners, including a secondary theft! This has been about a year and a half I've been looking for people and collecting info. Not quite the scale of TIGHAR's task, but still proof that historical trails do sometimes have an end.

*******************************

Good-oh! Well, what we're looking for no one is trying to hide, maybe that will help given the fact that it's over sixty years now......

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:04:47 EDT
From:         Pat
Subject:      News from Nikumaroro

Well, I got a phone call from Nikumaroro about 9 p.m. yesterday. They got the sat-phone up and running, and Ric called me from Nutiran. Very very weird.... the connection was good but a palpable delay in the transmissions.

Anyway, all is well, all are well, everyone is working really hard. Nothing startling yet, but it's early days. The weather is fine, although the seas were quite high on the way there. Things have calmed down, the channel is safe, and all are in fine form.

That's all the news....

But it was quite exciting!

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:05:52 EDT
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Wreck photo

This has come up before, and I believe Ric has copies of the documentation which shows which engines were on the airplane.  Besides, the L-10 E was never equipped with Wasp Jr.'s - it was factory equipped with 1340's.  Finch's plane, when it was rebuilt, was changed from an earlier model (10 A?) with the smaller engines, but AE's was a factory 10 E.  Not scientific, but I hope it helps.
ltm
jon 2266

*********************

I was hoping someone would remember what was what. IIRC, Goerner has a *lot* of the technical airplane stuff messed up.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:29:04 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Movie roles

Mel Gibson as Ric Gillespie?   Are you insane?

I'm vote for Wally Cox, if anyone would care to dig him up -- literally.

        LTM, who wants to be one of the natives
        Dennis McGee #0149

***************************

Why NOT Mel Gibson? I want Mel Gibson.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:30:55 EDT
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Tracking down 1938 ham operators

>If a list of 1938 ham operators is available from the FCC one could
>check it against the Social Security Death Index to find most of the one
>that are no longer living.  The index also gives (I think) the last address
>where they got SS checks.  One might be able to see if a surviving spouse
had any
>radio logs available by writing to that address.
>
>I don't have time to take this on as a project at present but perhaps
>one or more of the Forum members might.
>
>Dick Pingrey 908C

I am not sure the FCC retains such records.  Their records of holders of commercial licensees go back only a few years or so... we found that out while trying to discover if Noonan had ever held a commercial radiotelegraph ticket.  I am searching the QRZ database and so far, have determined that ALL the call signs listed are currently unused (i.e. the original holder died or let his ticket lapse, and the call has not been reissued), OR is currently held by someone other than the name listed in Cam Warren's posting (the only one like this is W6DI, which comes back to a guy in CA but not the original holder, Guy Dennis).  I think we can probably assume all these hams are now Silent Keys... but, I will keep looking.  Still have to check thru the ARRL.

73

Mike E.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:32:54 EDT
From:         Phil Tanner
Subject:      Re: Movie roles

I know I shouldn't, but from a mostly British perspective:

Hugh Grant as Gerald Gallagher
Liam Neeson as Dr MacPherson
Anthony Perkins as Dr Isaac
Richard Attenborough as Dr Hoodless
Charles Laughton as the captain of the Itasca
Michael Caine as the British high commissioner
Donald Pleasance as his deputy...

******************

Hmmmmmm .... I *think* Ric might want Liam Neeson to be him. Maybe Michael Caine. I dunno.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:33:44 EDT
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      SIGN OF THE TIMES ?

Half Moon Bay, CA :  The commercial wireless era ended in North America with the same terse message that Samuel Morse tapped out 155 years ago: "What hath God wrought?", as Globe Wireless's 89 year old KFS Marine station closed its 'key'.
73's   RC 941
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:36:57 EDT
From:         Mike Muenich
Subject:      Re: wreck photo

> This has come up before, and I believe Ric has copies of the
> documentation which shows which engines were on the airplane.  Besides,
> the L-10 E was never equipped with Wasp Jr.'s - it was factory equipped
> with 1340's.  Finch's plane, when it was rebuilt, was changed from an
> earlier model (10 A?) with the smaller engines, but AE's was a factory
> 10 E.  Not scientific, but I hope it helps.
> ltm
> jon 2266

Does someone have Goerner's records and documentation?  Goerner may well have made mistakes, but on the other hand he appears to have done some detailed research.  He claims he observed a letter in the State Department's files substantiating an engine change.  If the letter doesn't exist-that's one possiblity, if the letter exists-its in error-that's a second possiblity, if the letter exists and is accurate-some assumptions which have been made and logically developed are in jeopardy.  The existence or absence of the letter and, if existing, accuracy needs to be established.

***********************

The Admiral Nimitz Museum has Goerner's files, IIRC, and someone (who? a Forum member, please identify yourself <G>) went and looked at it all, with what exact results I'm not sure.

I do know that Goerner claimed to have seen lots of documents that he could not produce copies of when pressed. Given the evidence provided by the photographs taken of the aircraft on its trip around the world, which clearly show the 550hp engines, I am inclined to think this is one of the things that he said he saw which he didn't see.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:47:31 EDT
From:         Wiley Rollins
Subject:      Re: Wreck photo

About a year ago I had access to Fred Goerner's papers at the Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg, TX.  There are about 70 audio cassettes, 20 or more 11 x 14 manila envelopes stuffed with newspaper clippings and miscellany, 5 letter size file drawers containing Fred's correspondence.  The correspondence files have been indexed and I made a copy of this index and forwarded it to Ric (I didn't keep a copy)  If the index indicates some reference to the State Department and/or the engines, I'll certainly go take a look.

Wiley Rollins #2090

**************************

I have absolutely no idea where to even begin to look in Ric's files, so we'll have to wait on this until he gets back. Thanks, Wiley, I couldn't remember who went but I knew someone did.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:49:12 EDT
From:         Hugh Graham
Subject:      Re: News from Nikumaroro

Pat wrote:

> Well, I got a phone call from Nikumaroro about 9 p.m. yesterday. They got the
> sat-phone up and running, and Ric called me from Nutiran. Very very weird....
> the connection was good but a palpable delay in the transmissions.

----You are accustomed to surface long distance.  The stationary satellite orbit where gravity matches the centrifugal force at the correct satellite speed, dictates an altitude of approximately 40,000 miles.  So 2 times 40,000=80,000 miles=about one half second at radio wave speed.  Added to the repeater amplifier delay, and the total delay is very annoying.

LTM(who hates movie games),  HAG 2201.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:50:28 EDT
From:         Mark Cameron
Subject:      Re: Tracking down 1938 ham operators

I am familiar with the on-line version of the SSDI and unfortunately it does not list the address of the recipient, only the town/city and state. It may be possible to check telephone listings, but that is a real long shot, same as voter registrations. If we come up with a few names it would be interesting to try, but may not get us anything useful, you never know...

LTM (who is permanently non-published)
Mark Cameron #2301
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:51:49 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: News from Nikumaroro

What's the "sat-phone" link?  I'm wondering if it might be the Motorola "Iridium" system become operational.  With all the satellites up there, I guess there are lots of possibilities


*************************

Yup, it's Iridium. Long story..... I'm not sure it's a public one, either. Should have checked before they left. Anyway, there is an Iridium sat-phone system with them.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:55:06 EDT
From:         Natko Katicic
Subject:      Ham licenses

I always thought HAM radio is amateur. So I have difficulties following the postings about the FCC keeping records of commercial licensees and HAMs being eployed to... Can someone please (Mike E. perhaps?) explain? Please also explain the etymology of the expression "HAM" (i.e. where it is derived from)?

***************************

That's a good question. Does anyone know?

***************************

And - with all due respect - please ask the forum to stop wasting bandwidth again with casting the film.

***************************

Sorry you see it as a waste----- but it won't go past today, anyway.

***************************

Many folks on the Forum got pretty wound up hoping for the expeditions to bring back smoking guns. We should not forget that this is the preliminary recce expedition to prepare the final search for smoking guns in 2000. Or have I misunderstood something?

Best regards,

natko.

*******************************

It's always easy to get wound up about the possibility of outrageous good luck. Trust me, Ric isn't expecting miracles out there. If they stumble across something, great; otherwise, it's an essential planning trip which will allow us to function at much higher efficiency next year.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:56:39 EDT
From:         William Dohenyguy
Subject:      Them bones

How complete were the remains found on Niku? I mean where all the pieces there? And, who was the person who originally thought the remain were of Pacific Islanders? Was he/she qualified to make that statement?

William LTM

*************************

Less than 10% of the skeleton was found.

The person who thought it was a Pacific islander was in no way qualified to make that statement, other than being an MD (MDs are not trained in forensic identification today, let alone then).

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:00:26 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Casting the film

For "TIGHAR -- The Film," Phil Tanner suggested: Anthony Perkins as Dr Isaac

Great casting idea!  And as he examines the bones maybe he can take a nibble or two, 'ala Hannibal Lechter.

LTM, who on second thought, is much too modest to appear in a loin cloth

Dennis McGee #0149

***************************

From Clyde Miller

Is there any room in this movie for Kathy Ireland to play some kind of cameo...maybe nose art on the Lockheed?

***************************

From Herman

I like the British perspective... But what's wrong with Sean Connery ? Why not fit him in. Perhaps as 007 (looking for the lost bit of antenna) ? And why not Nigel Hawthorn as.. Well..  wouldn't he fit the role of the British high commissioner ?

*****************************

From Tom Robison

>Why NOT Mel Gibson? I want Mel Gibson.

I can get along with Mel Gibson as Ric... but can Mel Gibson get along with it?
;}

I still see Liam Neeson as FN.

LTM,
Tom #2179

************************

From Mike Rejsa

> From  Phil Tanner
> I know I shouldn't, but from a mostly British perspective:

How about David Niven as Gallagher? And of course there has to be a place for Roddy McDowall... perhaps as one of the Niku chimpanzees?

@@@@@@@@@@@@

from Pat----- I think we should stick with actors who are alive. No chimps on Niku, anyway.....

PS---this thread dies today....
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:56:59 EDT
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Broken Antenna?

You're doing a good job keeping the TIGHARs tamed and under control.  No argument about the thread dying, but Herman may have a valid point - is there any documentation from Lae reporting finding antenna parts after the takeoff?  Or does Ric think it maybe just dangled after it broke?

ltm,
jon 2266

*************************

We have heard two anecdotal accounts of lengths of antenna wire, etc., being found on the runway after the takeoff---FWIW.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:57:40 EDT
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      Electra Model on Ebay

As already coordinated with Pat, have put one Electra Limited Edition Electra Model 10 up on ebay for bid on my ebay account. Tighar is protected by a reserve price, so if reserve is not met, there is no sale. See at this url:

 <http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=131993314>
Notice that I had to put the graphics on a separate page as ebay's description box would not accommodate what I wanted to put in. Didn't think that a dutch auction (multiples of the same item) would work on a higher price item.  I did go for 10 days rather than 7. Suggestions welcome if we try this again.

Smooth Sailing,
Ron Dawson 2126
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:58:16 EDT
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Tracking down 1938 ham operators

On 14 Jul, Mike E. referred to Guy Dennis, ex W6DI.  A look at www.ancestry.com, then clicking on Social Security Death Index for this name, turned up:  SSN 573-46-2068, born 20 Oct 1902, died Jan 1987, residence Palos Verdes Peninsula, Los Angeles, CA 90274.  This may not be silent key W6DI, but someone in LA might care to check it out. Maybe his station log is still around.
LTM
Bill Moffet  2156
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:59:17 EDT
From:         Jim W.
Subject:      Finch's Electra engines

Reply for jon 2266:

Linda Finch's airplane was outfitted with 550 hp P & W engines when it was grounded here Memorial Day weekend, 1977.  The aircraft registration listed it as a model 10E.  According to the documentation available at the time it was sold, and moved from here to Amery, the upsized engines had been installed by the Brazilian national airline, Varig.  The plane sat idle at Wissota Airport (aka Bateman Field or Airport) until 1983, then claimed by "Amelia Air".  They towed it to Amery, WI, where it sat until 1992 when sold to Linda Finch and party.  According to Ric, the only difference between the 10A and the 10E are the engines.  Earhart's was a 10E Special, the "Special" signifying the addition of long-range fuel tanks.   Finch's airplane (c/n 1015), accurately described, is a 10A modified to 10E standard. It would be nice if there is anyone will be at the Muskegon Air Show July 16-17-18 and could get some additional history and specs on this Lockheed.

Jim W.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:05:02 EDT
From:         Dallas
Subject:      ham operator search

Regarding the search for ham operators, I would be able to check the Social Security Death Index if provided names.  Unfortunately this feature does not provide the full last address of the deceased.  It provides DOB/DOD/SSN and where the SSN was issued.  Occasionally it provides the last city and state where they lived.  There are also instructions on obtaining a copy of their Social Security application (for a small fee of course).  Even with a city/state at least you have a place to start searching for their relatives.

Dallas
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:03:16 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Iridium

>Yup, it's Iridium. Long story..... I'm not sure it's a public one, either.
>Should have checked before they left. Anyway, there is an Iridium sat-phone
>system with them.

I've watched "Iridium" with great interest for a long time.  It's very interesting to have first-hand accounting of how well it's working out. And I'm curious how much equipment has to be set up to use it.  I think It's a far cry from a "cell-phone!"

Incidently, this swarm of satellites are not in geosynchronous orbits, they're much lower.  But the signal does have to get passed from one to another which is part of the reason for the delay time.

************************

The phone connection itself works very well indeed (Ric called again last night). It's startlingly clear and easy to use.

As far as I know, the unit is ... a little bulky but not as bad as they used to be, smaller than a breadbox anyway.

However, Iridium may not be long for this world. I was hearing a report on NPR just last night that they have applied for a 30 day grace period on interest payments, and Motorola is talking about pulling the plug, which would force them to liquidate and sell the assets. Seems their projections called for 500,000 customers by the end of this year, and they have 15,000. oops.

Cool technology, but it needs to be easier to use, easier to carry around, and cheaper before they'll be able to generate the customer base needed. It would also help if they would answer their phones and/or return messages from prospective customers.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:07:41 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Report From Tom, Returned from Fiji

Bula to Pat and the Forum.  I'm just off the plane in San Francisco and back on AOL, so before I crash for the night, a quick update.

Foua Tofiga continues to be a perfectly fantastic informant and collaborator; thanks thanks THANKS to Peter MacQuarrie and Kent Spading for putting us on to him.  Though both Tarisi Vundilo at the Museum and Metusilia Moa at Fiji Intelligence knew just where to contact him, I don't think anyone would have thought to do so if we hadn't asked specifically.

Yesterday (more or less) he set up a meeting for us with Emily -- well, I'll find the full name when I unpack and find my notes -- anyhow, daughter of the Nikumaroro carpenter.  Wonderful lady, with wonderful stories, all in Tuvaluan, which Foua translated.  Taping wasn't appropriate, but we all (especially Barb and Kris, while I asked questions) kept extensive notes. Report to follow.  Anyhow, she started right off telling us that in ca. 1940 there was airplane wreckage on the Nutiran reef, consisting of big steel struts and spars.  She indicated thickness with her hands; similar to that of the landing gear on an Electra, but of course, similar to lots of other things too.  She also reported that to her knowledge, the bones that went in the box actually came from Nutiran, near the putative plane wreck.  Also reported several other skeletons there, but closer to the Norwich City and back a bit into the bush.  There's a lot to be sorted out here, and of course all this is anecdotal only, but it's something that can help guide fieldwork.

As for the bones themselves, on my next-to-last day we were permitted into the cellar of Government House, which was full of all the kinds of stuff that accumulates in such places (furniture, etc.), but no sign of boxes or bones. Ditto with a bomb shelter on the GH grounds.  To broaden the search, we've posted a F$500 reward for information.  There are only a couple of other more or less obvious buildings to check, so Kris, who'll be there till the end of the month, is turning to more interviews and archival work to see if she can find other leads.  Buildings can be searched as needed, however; she has our three sturdy volunteers to call on to leap into attics and crawl into tunnels.

I'll be doing a full report, subject to revision as Kris continues and concludes the work, but here are some preliminary thoughts:

* I don't think the bones returned to the Government until sometime well after WWII, if then; I think it's most likely they remained with Hoodless. Vaskess, the keeper of the bones file, is described as a very meticulous, thorough record-keeper; it seems very unlikely he would have received the bones back without minuting the file.  And he was around until after WWII, and then retired in Fiji.

* A lot of stuff of historical interest (e.g. the collections of the Museum) got housed in caves during WWII.  It's possible the box of bones went there. A lot of this stuff was destroyed or damaged by water, but it's not clear what was done with those elements that aren't now active parts of the Museum's collections.  Kris and Barb are pursuing this angle, per a suggestion by Foua.

* The bones are clearly NOT in some of the obvious seeming possible locations -- the Central Medical School attic, the buildings to which the Med School moved in 1953 (though there's some ambiguity there), the Gov't House cellar, etc.  In other words, we've struck off some possibilities.  This doesn't mean they're gone, however.  In fact, the general impression I got was that it's very unlikely they'd just be thrown away.  Burial is possible; Kris is going to be checking cemetery records.

* Suva is FULL of old buildings, many of them with government connections.  A point of diminishing returns comes at which one's just sort of blundering around blindly trying to search them.  This is where the reward comes in.  If we can get more people to look, including the maintenance people and occupants of buildings, we can get a lot farther than continuing to wander around on our own peering into attics and cellars.

That's it for now, and all I can do before falling over.  Bottom line: no bones in hand yet, but the adventure continues.  Some good leads, some of them quite unexpected.  Lots more to be done.  Thus far we've performed a reconnaissance.  If Kris and Barb don't come up with something, and the reward doesn't bring something in, we'll have to regroup, but right now I don't at all think it's a lost cause.

We owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to the Fiji Museum, the Government of Fiji, and everyone else there who's helped us.  More about that later, too.

Love to Mother (who INSISTS that I go to bed now.)

Tom
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:01:44 EDT
From:         Jeff Glickman
Subject:      Re: Broken Antenna?

Forensic analysis of the Lae takeoff showed that the antenna was not dangling from the airplane on take off.


Jeff Glickman
Board Certified Forensic Examiner
PHOTEK
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:02:41 EDT 
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Finch's Electra engines

> According to Ric, the only difference between the
> 10A and the 10E are the engines.

If I recall correctly, weren't the oil tanks on the engine bulkheads increased as well?

    - Bill

**********************************

I don't know if they were on the standard 10E.... I *think* they were on the Special. Anyone know for sure?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:03:54 EDT
From:         Ang.
Subject:      Navy Salvage methods (other aircraft)

At:

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-6c.htm

Is a short recounting of salvage attempts on a WWII Martin Mariner underwater in Puget Sound environs.

Ang.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:04:25 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Tom's Report

Quoting from Tom's report...

>She also reported that to her knowledge, the bones that went in
>the box actually came from Nutiran, near the putative plane wreck.  Also
>reported several other skeletons there, but closer to the Norwich City and
>back a bit into the bush.  There's a lot to be sorted out here, and of course
>all this is anecdotal only, but it's something that can help guide fieldwork.

Now looking at the map...  We don't know how Gallagher viewed the atoll when he said. "southeast corner of island."  Looking at Nutiran, I can see a "southeast corner" near the lagoon (also near Tatiman Passage).  And it's near the village although across the passage.  The trouble is that we know of no clearing or planting there.  Do we?

The map shows a wide patch of reef flat there from north of the Norwich City hulk to south of Tatiman Passage.  Is it a likely place to have selected to try to get a plane down?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:05:10 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Tom's Report

Thanks for posting Dr. King's preliminary report on the Fiji expedition.

If Emily's eyewitness report of wreckage on Nutiran reef (just 3 years after AE/FN disappearance) is true, the obvious question remains: How come none of the previous visitors to the island reported seeing the wreckage (or did they simply assume it was debris left over from the wreck of the Norwich)?

Indeed, if Ric's theory is correct, that wave/storm action pushed the wreckage onto the reef, after first sweeping the intact plane off the reef, (into deeper waters surrouding the reef) the rest of the plane has to be somewhere in that same area, especially the engines (obviously much heavier than the parts described by Emily & not as easilly washed around by wave or storm action as the lighter, aluminum parts or even the landing gear assembly of the Electra).

Also, was any attempt made to identify any of the teaching staff or administrators of the Medical School, who may have been in residence around the time the bones may have been deposited at the Medical School?

Many thanks to Dr. King & the others involved in the Fiji expedition. Even though the "smoking gun" has yet to surface, forensic investigations are always tedious/time consuming efforts which are valuble endeavors, if only eliminating those unproductive areas of inquiry & do oftimes provide new or different avenues to be explored.

Don Neumann
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:59:11 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Tom's Report

Vern says...

>Now looking at the map...  We don't know how Gallagher viewed the atoll when
>he said. "southeast corner of island."  Looking at Nutiran, I can see a
>"southeast corner" near the lagoon (also near Tatiman Passage).  And it's
>near the village although across the passage.  The trouble is that we know
>of no clearing or planting there.  Do we?

The question of how Gallagher viewed the atoll -- as an atoll with multiple islands or as a single island, or as some variant on one of these themes -- is a really difficult one, and I don't know how to solve it.  It's hard for me to believe, though, that sitting in his house in Ritiati, Gallagher would have referred to Nutiran as "the island" without some clarification of what island he was talking about.  And in any event, Emily's site isn't even on the SE end of Nutiran, it's on the NW end.  And no, we don't know of any clearing or planting on SE Nutiran until considerably after 1940.

LTM
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:00:36 EDT
From:         Jon Greenberg
Subject:      Re: Tom's report

Pat, Tom, et al..

Did serendipity strike again?  I have 3 questions:

1.  Does the Nutiran reef location match the previous anecdotal accounts of airplane wreckage?

2.  Did Tom have direct contact with Ric?

3.  Pat, you did discuss this with Ric, of course.

Tom, it sounds as if you had a really productive time in the tropical paradise.  I'm looking forward to the full report with great anticipation.

LTM

Jon Greenberg 2047
jongberg@rmi.net

***********************************

1.  No
2.  No
3.  Yes
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:01:31 EDT
From:         Tim Smith
Subject:      Re: Tom's Report

You're doing a good job with the forum as usual.  I wish we could afford to send Ric away on expeditions more often <g>.

Special thanks also to Tom King for his timely reports from Fiji.  Its great to be able to hear from his team so quickly. I hope you are able to pass along to the Niku team Tom's new information from his informants concerning the Nutiran area.

LTM (who is trying HARD to be patient),

Tim Smith 1142C

*****************************

Yes, Ric called from Niku and we discussed it.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:03:15 EDT
From:         START HERE
Subject:      Re: Finch's Electra engines

From Frank Kuhre

Jim,
 I built the Finch Electra from the boxes of aircraft parts that were brought
from the barn.  We used some blueprints of Amelia's aircraft (provided to us
by Lockheed and the Smithsonian) and lots and lots of photographs.
 The engine parts were provided by Pratt & Whitney.  Most of everything else
was rebuilt or fabricated from scratch.
 The difference between the 10A and the 10E were the engines, and a rudder
trim tab.  The difference between Amelia's and the rest, was the fuel tanks,
their respective fueling doors, the lack of windows and the emergency exit
window on the R/H aft side.
 It's been quite a while since that project, but I can remember most of it.
If there are any other things you would like to know, drop me a line.  I have
many photo's and a fairly good memory.
   Frank
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:06:13 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Earhart festival

From Patrick Gaston

And speaking of Linda Finch, the weekend after Muskegon she and her Electra
will be featured at the Amelia Earhart Festival July 23-25 in Amelia's
hometown of Atchison, KS.  The festival is held annually to coincide with
Amelia's birthday, July 24 (she will be either 101 or 102 years old this year
depending upon which biographer you believe).  Atchison is on the Missouri
River about 30 miles north of Kansas City.

The festival centers on the downtown area, which was turned into a pedestrian
mall some years back when that sort of thing was in vogue.  There are the
usual arts and crafts booths, food stands, etc.  Friday night, July 23, will
see a concert headlined by the Marshall Tucker Band and Joan Jett & The
Blackhearts.  (She really ought to change her name to "Joan
Pratt-and-Whitney-R1340's-with-Hamilton-Standard-Variable-Pitch-Propellers"
for the occasion, but I guess that's too much to ask.)  The concert will be
held at Warnock Lake, site of the Amelia Earhart Earthwork (a huge portrait
of Amelia visible only from the air).  Scheduled for Saturday are a 2k/10k
run, free airplane rides, breakfast at the public library, a symposium and a
big fireworks display that night.

Of course, the Otis home, where Amelia was born and spent her early years,
will be open for tours throughout the festival.  It overlooks the river and
is now owned by the 99's.  There's a small display of Ameliabilia and a
bookshop.  Curiously, last time I was there one part of the house was still
dedicated to a display of old-time dental equipment.  Evidently the home's
last private owner was a dentist, and it was bequeathed to the foundation on
the condition that the "dental museum" be maintained.  At least that's the
story I heard.  More info available at www.atchison.org

LTM (who always liked a good party)

Patrick Gaston

Sounds like the Fiji  team busted their buns, although I think the $500
reward is perhaps a little on the thin side considering the potential
significance of the remains in question.  Guess I had better send in my
membership check so you can up the ante.

********************

Well, $500 is not $500 all over the world, remember. One thing is that a
too-large reward will actually frighten people away, make them think, well, I
don't really know that much and I don't want to waste anyone's time. There is
a rather delicate balance that has to be maintained, and this was the amount
recommended by the Fiji Museum folks---who live there and know which end is
which.

Tom?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:09:07 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Finding lost things at sea or near land

From William Dohenyguy

Hi Gang:

     Just an interesting note. JFK jr.,passengers, and aircraft went down in
a populated area. Yet, some 30 hours later the authorities can't find it.
What a moumental task it is to look for something that vanished some
sixty-two years ago.

William LTM

*************************

Yeah, makes you think a bit, doesn't it? Although wreckage and luggage has
been found, washed up on a shore line. But sixty-odd years does complicate
things.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:38:55 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Purple, but on topic

From Bob Brandenburg

Pat:

As promised, I have reviewed Captain Whitlock's paper "The Silent
War Against the Japanese Navy".  It is an excellent summary of
the U.S. Navy's efforts to penetrate Japanese naval codes during
the two decades preceding the attack on Pearl Harbor.   I
recommend it to all forum members as an interesting historical
treatment of crytptology, a complex subject that is still
shrouded in secrecy - - - for very good reasons, I might add.

Although PURPLE is an interesting subject in and of itself, it is
irrelevant to our search for Amelia.  As is clear from Captain
Whitlock's presentation, encrypting and decrypting messages in
ANY code during the 20's and 30's was a slow, tedious, manual
process.  All users of encryption, regardless of nationality or
service affiliation, were constrained by the cumbersome nature of
the process and a pervasive shortage of code clerks - - - the
people who actually translated clear-text message into coded form
for transmisson, and who decrypted received messages into plain
text - - - and consequently used encryption only for the most
important matters.  It is difficult to imagine that the Japanese
regarded Amelia's flight as a matter of sufficient importance to
justify using scarce resources to communicate in PURPLE or any
other code.  But even if they did, we'll never know about it.
The Japanese would be unwilling to disclose any details of
encoded message traffic for security reasons that are beyond the
scope of this forum.   If they did discuss Amelia's flight in
coded traffic, and if those messages were intercepted and decoded
by any U.S. intelligence organization, that information is likely
to remain forever classified and thus unavailable.  Information
about codes and the breaking of codes is jealoulsy guarded by
every nation that uses codes.

For forum members who would like to know more about the history
and techniques of coding and code-breaking, I recommend "The
Codebreakers, The Story of Secret Writing", By David Kahn.  It
was published by the MacMillan Company, New York, in 1967, and to
this date remains a valuable resource on the subject.

LTM (who is very cryptic about codes)

Bob Brandenburg (2286)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:53:40 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Criticism

From Randy Conrad  <bconrad@dailynews.net>

Hey Pat:

  What's with the attitude! What makes you sure that the Electra is not
sitting out in the ocean! No wonder nobody is writting on the forum! With an
attitude you've been having the past several days, I myself wouldn't write!
Can't wait till Ric get's back! Then we can have some excitement back!
Anyway, let's see some more enthusiam instead of Oh! the phone is working
fine! Did they find anything, or is anybody sick! Cmon Pat, don't let Ric
down!

***********************************

Maybe I shouldn't dignify this with an answer.

First, the whole point of this Forum, and of our search, is based on the
premise that, in fact, the aircraft landed at Nikumaroro. Not at sea, not a
ditching, but a landing on the island. OK? If you would like to discuss a
ditching, that's fine----but it's off topic for TIGHAR's Earhart Forum.
You'll have to discuss it privately or on your own maillist. The Earhart
Forum is not a bull session about Amelia; it is a serious research tool, in
which people with skills, interests, and expertise can pool their resources
and work together on TIGHAR's hypothesis. Should you care to review the
analysis, evidence, artifacts, and history which leads us to base our work at
Nikumaroro, you will find ample material on TIGHAR's web site,
http://www.tighar.org.

Second, there is absolutely no way that an announcement of a significant find
would be made on this Forum, or in any other forum or media, in a casual or
uncoordinated way. This is a serious endeavor, and we are not about to throw
away ten years of hard work with a lot of chatter about how cool everything
is, or isn't.

So far as I know, no one is sick. The purpose of the telephone cas. There was
never *any* chance that any message would say "Gee, we found it". None.
Should such a message reach the public, just how long do you thing the
artifacts would remain undisturbed after the team left? This was discussed at
great length right here on this maillist before the team departed for Niku,
and there was no argument that anything except silence was correct.

As for letting Ric down.... you know, I think he'll be the best judge of
that. Not you.

Love to Mother, who doesn't intend to prolong this discussion--

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:54:47 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Tom's Report

From Tom King:

Jon -- Re. your questions:
>
>1.  Does the Nutiran reef location match the previous anecdotal accounts of
>airplane wreckage?

No.  The previous anectodal accounts placed wreckage SOUTH of the Norwich
City.  Emily's anecdote places it NORTH of the shipwreck.  It's also
different kinds of wreckage; Emily was quite specific that it did not include
aluminum; it was heavy steel pieces.  The wreckage reported earlier was quite
explicitly aluminum.
>
>2.  Did Tom have direct contact with Ric?

Not exactly.  We talked with Emily the day I left.  We immediately called
Nai'a with a very brief report designed for radio transmission, which got
through; Ric then called on the sat phone and talked with Kris and Barb; I
was en route home.  As soon as I got to LAX I called Pat with a fuller report.
>
>3.  Pat, you did discuss this with Ric, of course.
>
She did, and Ric's also now in direct sat phone contact with Kris for any
further updates.

The Fiji venture certainly has been productive, even if the bones don't
appear, and there's still a decent chance that they will.  If nothing else it
was a good recon; we have a far better idea of what opportunities and
obstacles there are in Fiji.  The scariest thing is how many of the important
sources are disappearing.  Time and time again we were told that if we'd only
been able to talk with Mr. X or Ms. Y or Sir Z, they might know something,
but they'd died last year or the year before.  Thanks to Foua Tofinga, we now
know the identity of virtually everyone whose name is on a note in the Bones
File, and it's POSSIBLE that one or two of them may still be alive.  Of
course, even if they are, and remember anything, that doesn't deliver the
bones.  Lots to be done -- unless the bones turn out to be among those Kris
and Barb have now seen in the previously unexamined Museum collection, which
Kar will check before she returns to the States.

LTM, who says to keep boning up
Tom
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:59:20 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Tom's Report

From Tom King

Re. Don's questions:

There weren't all that many visitors to Niku (other than the colonists)
before the Coast Guard folks arrived, but my question about Emily's report
is, if the bones were really associated with the reported airplane wreckage,
why doesn't any of this show up in Gallagher's reports?  My top-of-the-head
guess is that she's compressing a couple of stories into one -- a common
enough problem when one's recollecting things like this.  But we questioned
her from a couple of different directions about this to see if she'd begin to
remember things differently, and she didn't.  Quite certain that the bones
were near the wreckage and that as a result Koata told everyone to stay away
from the whole area.  It's a puzzle, as is a lot of stuff surrounding the
period from the bones discovery through Gallagher's death to the beginning of
WWII (which almost precisely coincided with Emily's departure).  By now Kris
should have interviewed another Niku veteran, the daughter of the wireless
operator, so we may have another perspective.

Re. medical school personnel: we've got the names of Hoodless' immediate
successors but no locations for them yet.  We just missed his lab manager,
who died just a few years ago.  We've talked with the lab manager who started
in the late '60s (and who saved the anatomy collection -- another story) but
he had no specific knowledge of the bones.  The President of Fiji, His
Excellency Ratu Mara, was himself a medical student around the time the bones
were there, as was the Speaker of the House.  Hopefully Kris will get to talk
with them, but as you might expect, this isn't a real easy thing to do.

LTM
TK
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:04:28 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Report From Fiji

From Kris Tague

I called Dr. Margaret Guthrie in New Zealand (Hoodless's daughter) and asked
her if she had any memory of the Kanawa box. No dice. I asked her what she
thought her father would do with the bones and box ... and she thought he
would have kept them at the medical school.

Later we went to see Mrs. O'Brien and went through extensive interview
questions. Turns out she was only on Niku for 2-3 days en-route to Manra on
the trip dropping the settlers off. Remembered stories of the plane but
couldn't remember seeing
a ship. We will go to see Emily again on Wednesday and among other things ask
her if she has any surviving siblings that lived on the island longer than
she. (she was the
eldest).

From there Tofinga and I went to a meeting he had arranged with the
Chief clerk of St. Andrews parish. Seems he remembered in the old days
there was a storeroom there and that Hoodless' succesor attended there. She
agreed to bring the request up at the board meeting on Wednesday. In the
meantime Tofinga and she found out that they are related by marriage and
that she had just met his namesake on a trip to New Zealand and he had
asked her to find him. Et Voila - Tofinga called her. On behalf of Tom I asked
her about the I-Kiribati attending the church. Could she ask if any had
relatives who had lived on Nikumororo? She agreed, said that most of these
people were relocated to the Solomons and that she herself had an "Auntie"
who had lived on Niku but had passed away in the Solomons.

This evening Ric and Kar called. Kar will spend a few days, finish up at
medical school, measure the museum and Masonic bones.And...I had an e-mail
from Dr. Guthrie giving me the name of the Dr. that her father did a
"hand-over" to of the medical
school upon his retirement. Will pursue that lead and Tofinga is going to
ring the man that he thinks was the executor of Vaskess's estate.

Now to bed,

Love to Mother who says get a good rest (as does Tofinga!)

Kris
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:09:28 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Codes

From Dennis McGee

        Bob Brandenburg said: "If they [the Japanese] did discuss Amelia's
flight in coded traffic, and if those messages were intercepted and decoded
by any U.S. intelligence organization, that information is likely to remain
forever classified and thus unavailable."

        FYI.  The National Security Agency (my former employer) has for the
past 10 years or so been culling its archives and releasing much heretofore
secret material from the World War II-era.  The data was collected by NSA
(and it predecessor agencies) by intercepting foreign radio communications
and decrypting the messages.  While some of the stuff may remain classified
for eons, much of it has been released, witness the infamous "Verona"
intercepts released a few years ago that helped put the FBI et. al. on the
trail of Soviet spies in the U.S. in the 1940s and 1950s.

        LTM, who talks too much!
        Dennis McGee #0149
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:34:56 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Criticism

From Roger Kelley

Hey Pat,
Re your answer, ya done good!

LTM,
Roger Kelley, #2112

************

thanks
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:46:10 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Criticism

From Jim Tierney

Pat-- Good answer to this criticism...
Jim Tierney
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:07:20 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Codes

From Randy Jacobson

Having spent years at the National Archives, here is how coded messages can
be released to the public:
The decoded message can be released, but never, ever, with the original
coded message.  Knowing the two together determines the code, which is
never provided in any releasable form.  There are now ex-WWII
cryptographers still going over the Japanese and German messages, trying to
decode those that weren't during the war years, but they must abide by
these rules as well.
Cheers, and love to rules.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:10:44 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Criticism

From William Webster-Garman

Pat, obviously, by responding to that dubious dribble, you graciously gave
it far more credibility than it deserved.

william #2243
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:11:44 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Criticism

From Mary Jane

Dear Pat,
As someone who is new to the forum it is very obvious that Mr. Conrad is
angry at someone but that someone is not you.  Or is his intent to be a "mess
maker."  I don't know.
I am new here but I certainly know that if a find were indicated -telling it
to the world before securing the site would be very irresponsible and a
disservice to the many who have obviously spent alot of time doing research
instead creating tension.
Job and response well done!  Mary Jane
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:12:43 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Criticism

From Mark Cameron

Pat

You're a true lady, your reply was so full of class that my own anger at
Conrad was greatly dimished. Way to go !!

LTM (who would like to take him on herself)
Mark Cameron #2301

************************

Thanks, Mark, my Saintly Southern Grandmothers (both of 'em) would be much
gratified at someone (anyone!) calling me a lady <G>.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:19:59 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Criticism

From Vern Klein

From Vern

Re:  The criticism.  >>Maybe I shouldn't dignify this with an answer.

Hey Pat,  You were right the first time!

But then I guess the rest of your response is food for thought in general.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:20:49 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Message intercepts

From Don Neumann

Re: Radio intercepts

Although it is doubtful that any of the Japanese radio intercepts from
Station Baker (Guam) were ever deciphered or translated (Navy personnel
assigned to the station were not trained to decipher or translate such
intercepts in the 1920s & 1930s) they were "bundled" & shipped to Hawaii
&/or Washington, D.C. & probably still remain in "storage" in a
warehouse, somewhere in the Maryland countryside.

The value of the intercepts at Station Baker was in the ability of the
Navy radio operators to "track" Japanese fleet operations by pinpointing
the location of the transmission's source & identifying the call signs
of the various vessels involved in such radio traffic.      The only
possible connection of this activity with the AE/FN flight would be if
there had been any "unusual" increase in the number or frequency of such
radio traffic, in or around the mandated islands during the leg of the
flight from Lae to Howland or during the subsequent search efforts.

Admittedly, no "smoking gun", but if such activity had been recorded, it
would seem that the possibility existed  the Japanese may have had a
greater interest in the flight than their public pronouncements allowed
or they may have picked-up signals during the flight or after it was
down, that were missed by Itaska. (might be possible to confirm some of
the post flight radio signals claimed by other sources?)      To my
knowledge, no research has ever been done to determine what (if any)
civil radio networks were active in the Japanese mandates during the
1930's.

Anyhow, the possibility of locating such intercepts, sorting through
them for the July 1937 time frame, then having them deciphered &
translated would be a monumental task costing far more than any results
obtained could justify. (I've tried to identify & locate Navy personnel
assigned to Station Baker in 1937, but it is a tedious task & more than
likely most if not all have passed from this scene, much the same as
persons having had contact with Niku Island)

Don Neumann
sandon@webtv.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:21:21 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Fiji reports

From Don Neumann

After reading Tom & Kris' latest Fiji reports, it appears that (as
usual) the "crew" is touching all the bases & developing as much
information as is available.

Great work gang!

Don Neumann
sandon@webtv.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:27:50 EDT
From:        
Subject:      The Balance Swings?

From Phil Tanner

The thing in this that grabs me by the lapels and shouts in my face is a
real live eyewitness placing aircraft wreckage on the island around 1940.
Surely about as good as anecdotal evidence could be, given that there is
absolutely no doubt this time that it is the right island? Someone now is
going to have to argue for an alternative source if this wasn't Earhart's
plane, and how many planes had ever been within hundreds of miles of Gardner
Island by 1940, let alone disappeared in the vicinity, let alone done that
with the crew reporting they were running on a line which would take them
close to it in one direction?

To put it another way: Up until now, the general perception among people
vaguely interested in the Earhart mystery would be "she was lost at sea, a
few nutcases think the Japanese captured her but there's this bunch of
people in America who have an interesting theory that she did reach a
particular island". This testimony should shift the balance to "it seems
likely she landed on Gardner Island, although some diehards still maintain
she crashed into the sea".

LTM, Phil 2276

***************************

Let's hope so, Phil.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:30:12 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Bones/DNA

From John Toomer

 I have been on the forum for awhile but have only written in once.
My questions would be:

        1.  Once the bones are found, do you have any tissue / blood samples
from decendants of AE to see if there is a match?

        2.  If the bones are identified as AE / FN, what is the disposition.
Are there relatives still living who will want them interred in a family
plot or will they become 'National Heros' or something to that affect and be
buired in a National Cemetary?

        You may have already covered this.  I apologize if it is redundant.
I checked the web site and didn't see anything about this though.

        Thank you,
        John

**************************

1)   Yes, there is a niece --- Earhart's sister's daughter, and if there is a
solid find then we would ask her to contribute a cheek swab (that's all it
takes, really, although a blood sample is also good).

2)  Strictly up to the family, not our department, etc., etc.-----and I
wouldn't want to speculate.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:32:05 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Non Earhart Bones Found

From Herman de Wulf

From Herman

Italian television today announced that scientists have found the bones of
Dante Aleghieri, the author of "La Divina Commedia", who died in 1321. Dante
shaped the Italian language and his "Divina Commedia" is considered a
masterpiece of 14th century Christian humanism. His bones got mislaid after
they were moved from Ravenna to Florence.

So for TIGHAR there is a moral to this story : PERSEVERE !  If the Italians
can find bones they mislaid in the 14th century, TIGHAR must be able to find
the bones of AE and perhaps even her Electra.

By the way, the bones were found in a Florence library. I wonder how they got
there.

**************************

Cool, Herman---thanks for this contribution. And yes, that is a good
question. Bones in a library?

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:36:56 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Message intercepts

From Randy Jacobson

A couple of comments.  Radio Guam and Wailupe records were stored at Crane,
Indiana at a Navy facility under heavy security, but were transfered to the
National Archives, and are undergoing declassification.  I haven't checked
on availability in a couple of years; they said it would take more like 5
years.

I tracked US Navy message traffic increases during the AE loss, by
comparing radio station message numbers (this was a monthly contest held by
the Navy!).  No apparent increase in message traffic from May through
August, 1937, despite well over 2500 Naval messages related to AE!  That
indicates the huge amount of traffic going on during this time.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:50:38 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Criticism

From Randy Conrad

Dear Pat and fellow Forumites:

  Yes! I deserve to be called everything under the sun; but I don't deserve
to be threatened as one individual did with Gillepsie cultistic members.
First, of all if this is true; then this forum becomes null and void in my
books! All, I was doing is expressing my First Amendment rights! Oh! I'm
sorry...we don't have those anymore Right! Yes, I'm deeply sorry, Pat and
those who I might have offended! But, tell that to your sponsors and those
who are looking for answers and are helping this expedition! They, like
myself are looking for answers and are excited! But, not to the avail as
"well, the phone works! People want to know! I'm sorry, Pat and please
forgive me! But, from my stand point I'm the person who goes looking for
answers! I don't like to let my constiuents down! That's all I'm getting
across! I didn't mean to cause such a ruccus; but what good is this forum;
If now all of a sudden we have to be quiet about this expedition! Let's get
people excited about this! All I want to see is some enthusiasm.
I didn't see that the other day when I read your reply to one individual!
Anyway, please except my apology and those others who I might have offended!

***************************

I expect it's time for this thread to die a natural death. I can't think of
anything to say that I didn't say before..... other than this. First
Amendment rights do not really apply to a maillist such as the Earhart Forum.
This is not a newsgroup, it is a moderated and owned maillist, and we can, in
fact refuse any posting we feel is irrelevant, damaging, unpleasant, or off
topic---- and we do. We do NOT refuse postings merely for being
controversial, or for disagreeing with us; but any argument must be supported
by facts beyond "Well, this is what I think and I have a right to think what
I think."

Once more:  the issue of what would and would NOT be released publicly was
discussed ad nauseum on this forum before the expedition departed, and a
consensus was developed that no information could, should, or would be
released without careful study and appropriate security measures, should
those be necessary.

The purpose of this Forum is to coordinate research into the theory that
Earhart's flight ended at Nikumaroro. As the welcome message each person gets
on signing up states, we're not here to talk about AE's personality, flight
skills, the conspiracy theories, the captured by aliens theories, the crashed
and sank theories, or anything which, in the opinion of the Forum's
moderators and owners (that's me, right now, but usually Ric), will not
directly contribute to moving the research forward.

Shall I post this every day to remind people? Or is this a one-off problem?

Pat

PS.  Ric's last name is spelled "Gillespie". Thanks.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:01:34 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Fiji reports

From Tom King

Thanks to Don for the gracious plaudits.  I can't say we've done everything
possible, but we've done everything we could do with available resources,
within available constraints, and Kris, of course, is continuing to do so.
As often happens with a reconnaissance, though, I at least came away
impressed with how much more there is to do, and with the opportunities that
exist that I'd never dreamed of.  It would sure be nice to get someone to
spend really serious time on the documentary and oral history of the Western
Pacific High Commission, with an emphasis but not an exclusive emphasis on
the Niku bones connection.  There's a very rich story there, with sources of
information disappearing rapidly, and it's going to be very difficult for us
to understand the context in which anything specific to the bones we find
exists, without that broader picture.  I know Peter McQuarrie has done some
of what's needed, but it looks like there's a lot more to be done.

LTM (who loves to reminisce)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:12:38 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Non Earhart Bones Found

From Jon Watson

Pat,
That might actually be a good lead - libraries - especially university
libraries, frequently have extensive collections of archival material -
and frequently it sits in boxes on shelves.  Is there a library on Fiji?
ltm
jon  2266

********************

Tom? What say you?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:16:04 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Definitions and Explanations

It has come to my attention that there are some misconceptions floating
around about what a maillist is and what the Forum is. So at least for a
while, I think I will post this every morning. At least then no one will be
able to say "But I didn't know!"

The Earhart Forum is an owned, moderated maillist---as opposed to, for
instance, a public newsgroup. In general, on a newsgroup you can post
anything you like, say anything you like, hurl whatever accusations you
like.... and take it right back in the teeth when someone else doesn't like
what you said. No one owns a newsgroup, no one polices it, no one moderates
it for relevance. It is a truly public forum, and if you can hold your own in
that arena you can say whatever you like.

By contrast, the Earhart Forum  is a focused, sometimes very intense and
active, effort to push research on a particular topic ahead. Most of the
people who subscribe to the Forum are busy, so we try to keep things on topic
as much as possible to reduce the time investment people have to make in
keeping up with things. TIGHAR owns the Earhart Forum just like TIGHAR owns
TIGHAR Tracks. We are willing to post (or publish) anything which puts
forward well-researched, well-documented, intelligent discussion on any point
of the Earhart disappearance; but we are not going to waste bandwidth on
people's personal opinions about aliens or the Japanese or whatever, in the
absence of actual documentation.

We try to be very liberal about this policy, because sometimes good things
arise from discussion of opinions and theories that are not very well
grounded. But if a posting arrives here that is off-topic, unreadable,
unsubstantiated opinion, or otherwise unsuitable, we're not going to puthe
serious researchers who are pooling their resources here.

Anyone who has any questions about these policies please email
TIGHAR1@aol.com rather than posting to the Forum.

Pat Thrasher
TIGHAR
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:29:47 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Definitions and Explanations

From Jon Watson

Unless there's some undercurrent behind the scenes that we're not aware
of, out here in radioland, I really don't think there's that much of a
problem.  If anything, I would suggest that upon receipt of something
that doesn't fit the criteria, and which might warrant a response at
all, then send the individual the "definitions and explanations"
information privately.  For the most part (read vast majority), the
TIGHARs (regardless of chronological age) appear to be a mature,
generally civilized bunch, and one which I am proud to be affiliated
with.  We all know what the list is, and that's the way we like it - or
we wouldn't participate.  If the disclaimer isn't part of the sign-up
info (which it probably is - it's been a long time since I looked) then
put it there.

One thought about security of any find - all the world knows we believe
Niku is the place - and that's where we've gone to search - so if we
find anything there everyone is going to know that that's where it is.
In a sense it will not be any more of a secret than Ballard's location
when he found Titanic.  He was pinpointed almost instantly.

By the way, you're doing a bang on job of running the forum while Ric's
gone adventuring.  Keep up the good work, and Thrash those TIGHARs
(couldn't resist).
ltm
jon 2266

**********************************

Well, there's a pile of difference between knowing that we *think*
something's on Niku, and knowing that we *know* something's on Niku. Of
course, without knowing just where----well, it's a big island when you're out
there staring at that jungle with a machete in hand.

I will take your comments under advisement.... probably you are right. Having
posted them here once (and, yes, something very similar is in the sign-on
stuff people get) that's probably enough.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:36:47 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Report from Fiji-- Wednesday

From Kris Tague

Today I first looked at the two items by Hoodless; a report on the Central
Medical
School and a reprint of an English-Fijian medical dictionary. In reading
through the booklet I found references to the teaching of anatomy and got a
copy of it along with photos of The Colonial War Memorial Hospital
(contemporary to our story), the school hostel buildings and a photo of the
anatomy classroom. It should be good background material if we ever get
into the CWMH.

Next I took a look at Sir Harry Luke's "From a South Seas Diary" which covers
the late thirties and early forties, just the period of the telegram traffic.
It appears to be a fairly abbreviated, published form of his diary. Tofinga
says that the officers were required to keep travel diaries. The excerpts in
the book have a tone of addressing an audience rather than a record of
intimate thoughts. I can't remember where we are on finding Sir Harrys'
papers but it has gotten near to the top of my list for research when I get
back home. I followed references to: Gallagher, MacPherson, Gardner, Vaskess,
Tofinga, Gatty, Hoodless, the hospital and the medical school. There is a
blurb on Gatty which confirms Ric's suspicion that he was the aviation Harold
Gatty.Vaskess is "indefatigable" and Gardner is filled with thousands of
hermit crabs. I'm sure that it can be mined for more information than I have
found so far - hopefully I'll be able to locate a copy for further research.
There are photographs of Luke and MacPherson amongst others. I'll try to get
a decent copy of these.

I met Tofinga at the Old Mill for lunch and a review of "The bone chronology"
which I had brought him yesterday. He found the synopsis very helpful and I
now have three pages of notes with observances and corrections on the
chronology. With it I think all of the notes will be clear to the last detail.

I went up to University of the South Pacific to the bookstore. I wanted to
see if I could locate the book that has photos of her parents. I'll also
check with USP Publications. Found a photo book of Fiji in the forties and
fifties (haven't had time to look at it yet, wouldn't that be great if there
was a picture of the curios in Vaskess's office). Met with a retired civil
servant to go over personnel lists...didn't turn out to be very helpful but
another view of the meticulous British Civil servant.

Back to the archives...after settling in and waiting the expedited telegram
approval came through. I'm excited about that and hope they merit it. In
theory I should now be able to go through all telegram traffic from Fiji
between 1937-45.

Tomorrow - Telegrams in the am and buildings in the pm.

Mode, (as Fijian mothers say to their kids each night)

Kris
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:41:48 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Hams with PAA in 1930s

From Mike Everette

From Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194:

In 1936, Pan American's staff at Wake Island included at least one ham radio
operator who was quite active on the ham bands:  Bill Breuer, W6TE (used the
call sign K6TE on Wake... back then all US ham calls were prefixed with W,
and all overseas territories used K calls... this changed after WW2).

There is an interesting letter from Breuer, published in the January 1936
issue of Radio Magazine (which was also the one when the publication merged
with R/9, another early ham 'zine... Radio was the surviving entity).  The
letter describes life on Wake and the radio scene then.

I have not researched this yet, but I think we can get a history some place
for call sign assignments.  The American Radio Relay League (ARRL) may have
it.. also, the ham radio database on "QRZ" may be able to provide this info.
  I'll check it tonight.  If anyone else wants to have a go, the web sites
are:   www.arrl.org    and www.qrz.com

73

Mike E.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:38:03 EDT
From:        
Subject:      More hams

From Cam Warren

Actually, the Hawaiian hams were employed by the US Dept. of the Interior,
and were customarily rotated back home and/or to the other islands on a
regular basis.

Walter McMenamy, as it later turned out, never had a ham license and was more
mouth than radio expert.  He apparently ingratiated himself to AE as that
sort often does, and managed to garner a few headlines when he "identified"
Amelia's voice on one or more of the post-loss messages.  He hung around with
the LA hams and was thought to have an uncanny knack for picking signals out
of the air that nobody else could read.
The LA gang may have been fired when somebody got wise to Walter.

(Source: Goerner interviews with McMenamy, Pierson and others)

Cam

**************************

Your understanding of McMenamy certainly runs parallel to ours----all talk,
lots of smoke, but no fire.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:34:13 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: The Electra Models

From Shirley

From Shirley 2299

I too have done considerable buying and selling on eBay.  Any of the words in
the description such as Earhart - Electra - model plane - etc. would be
picked up when the search was entered.  Yes, Pat, there is a space that you
enter a search  description for what you're looking for.  Then the items are
bought up in a listing by description.  When one interests you, you link to
the entire description and photo, if available, and the bidding form follows.
 I often go to Amelia Earhart to see what's there.

Will be glad to help in any way you might like.

Shirley 2299

*********************************

sounds like the key words we need are Earhart, Electra, and model planes....
can anyone think of other categories/key words that someone (who doesn't know
we exist) might search on and come up with us?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:30:44 EDT
From:        
Subject:      "lost" Lockheed located at Ft. Benning, GA

From Dave Porter

Pat,

You're doing a fine job with the forum--I've just finished reading
6/25-7/12.  Glad to read that all arrived safely at Fiji & Niku.  As
promised to Ric earlier, my check for $100 will be in the mail by the end of
this week, with $20 extra for a TIGHAR t-shirt.

While at Fort Benning, GA for the last 2 1/2 weeks doing my Army Reserve
thing, I ran across the remains of a Lockheed-- it was either an F-80
Shooting Star, or a T-33 (2 seat trainer of same)  I have yet to unpack my
field notes and cross check against reference materials, but I do have a
partial tail # written down.  Now for the bad part:  It's parked in the
fenced off "Hazardous Materials Training Site" and appears to have been
(cringe) set on fire from time to time to train firefighter crews in
fighting aircraft fires--there is an army airfield on Ft. Benning.  (how's
that for outfield chatter?)

For those interested in such things, I sadly report that Army Basic Training
is getting, well... soft.  The Privates now wear elbow and knee pads
whenever they are going to be on the ground (crawling, shooting prone, etc.)
for any length of time, and in the Company I trained, an experiment was
ongoing wherein a laser device was inserted in rifle barrels to attempt
marksmanship training, in leiu of shooting real bullets--it was a dismal
failure.  Consensus also has military bearing, courtesy, and discipline
falling off due to lack of same being treated by "remedial training" rather
than the old-fashioned P.T. "smoke session".  I guess they won't be calling
me a Drill Sergeant much longer--maybe a "soldierization facilitator."  This
is at the Infantry School, so I imagine it's worse elsewhere.  I'd be
curious to hear from some of you vets out there on the forum re the above.
I'm at <drp67@hotmail.com>

Sorry to have wandered so far afield...Godspeed and good hunting to all
TIGHARs now in the field.

LTM, Dave Porter, 2288

*************************

Well, I'm sure Ric will be horrified <G>---his tour at the Benning School for
Boys is something he still describes with loathing.

If anyone would like to pursue these topics with Dave, use private email,
this is off-topic (but interesting, I will admit).

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:29:29 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Fiji report

From Roger Kelley

Hi Pat,
Forgive me, but I seemed to have missed the reason as to why our search was
denied at the Colonial War Memorial Hospital building.  Who occupies the
building at the present time?

Thanks,
Roger Kelley, #2112

************************

Uh....... Tom? Help?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:30:41 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Non Earhart Bones Found

From Bill Leary

> From Herman de Wulf
>
> Italian television today announced that scientists have found the bones of
> Dante Aleghieri,

Not bones, ashes.

An envelope of ashes and what amounts to identity papers.

From
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/ap/international/story.html?s=v/ap/1999
0719/wl/italy_dante_s_ashes_2.html

Italy Library Finds Dante Ashes
FLORENCE, Italy (AP) - Workers reorganizing the bookshelves at a library in
Florence found a sack of dust from the tomb of Dante on Monday, 70 years
after librarians mislaid it.
The sack held ashes scooped from the poet's tomb at Ravenna during
commemorations in 1865, the 600th anniversary of the birth of the Florentine
poet.
"The powder within was taken from the carpet on which reposed the casket
and the bones of Dante Alighieri,'' a weathered, notorized document with the
ashes attests.

    - Bill

************************

OK, that makes a little more sense.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:32:29 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Non Earhart Bones Found

From William Webster-Garman

Actually, the Dante bones were mislaid probably around 1930. Still, I'm sure
there's a positive message there for TIGHARites...

william #2243

***************************

I once was lost but now am found...

sorry   getting punchy

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:28:36 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Off topic, but relevant anyway

From Jim Tweedle

Takeoffs are optional.  Landings are mandatory.

If God meant man to fly, He'd have given him more money.

If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger, if you
pull the stick back they get smaller.  (Unless you keep pulling
the stick back -then they get bigger again)

Flying is not dangerous; crashing is dangerous.

It's better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up
there wishing you were down here.

The propeller is just a big fan in the front of the plane to keep
the pilot cool.  Want proof?  Make it stop; then watch the pilot
break out into a sweat.

Speed is life, altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided
with the sky.

It's best to keep the pointed end going forward as much as possible.

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man.... Landing is
the first!

Every one already knows the definition of a 'good' landing is one from
which you can walk away.  But very few know the definition of a 'great
landing.' It's one after which you can use the airplane another time.

The probability of survival is equal to the angle of arrival.

Always remember you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands.
Never let an airplane take you somewhere your brain didn't get to
five minutes earlier.

You know you've landed with the wheels up when it takes full power
to taxi.

Those who hoot with the owls by night, should not fly with the
eagles by day.

A helicopter is a collection of rotating parts going round and round
and reciprocating parts going up and down - all of them trying to
become random in motion.  Helicopters can't really fly - they're
just so ugly that the earth immediately repels them.

Young man, was that a landing or were we shot down?

Learn from the mistakes of others.  You won't live long enough to
make all of them yourself.

Trust your captain .... but keep your seat belt securely fastened.

Any pilot who relies on a terminal forecast can be sold the Brooklyn
Bridge. If he relies on winds-aloft reports he can be sold Niagara
Falls.

Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad
judgment.

Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.

There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing: Unfortunately,
no one knows what they are.

The only thing worse than a captain who never flew as copilot is a
copilot who once was a captain.

Be nice to your first officer, he may be your captain at your
next airline.

Any attempt to stretch fuel is guaranteed to increase headwind.

A thunderstorm is never as bad on the inside as it appears on the
outside.  It's worse.

Son, I was flying airplanes for a living when you were still in
liquid form.

It's easy to make a small fortune in aviation.  You start with a
large fortune.

A male pilot is a confused soul who talks about women when he's
flying, and about flying when he's with a woman.

A fool and his money are soon flying more airplane than he can handle.

Remember, you're always a student in an airplane.

Keep looking around; there's always something you've missed.

Try to keep the number of your landings equal to the number of your
takeoffs.

You cannot propel yourself forward by patting yourself on the back.

There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no
old, bold, pilots!

Things which do you no good in aviation: Altitude above you. Runway
behind you.  Fuel in the truck.  Half a second ago.  Approach plates
in the car. The airspeed you don't have.

Flying is the perfect vocation for a man who wants to feel like a boy,
but not for one who still is.

Asking what a pilot thinks about the FAA is like asking a fireplug
what it thinks about dogs.

Being an airline pilot would be great if you didn't have to go on all
those trips.

Gravity never loses!  The best you can hope for is a draw!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:35:01 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Criticism

From William Webster-Garman

Ok, here's my succinct opinion: Anyone who uses an exclamation point at the
end of every sentence loses most of their credibility with me, whatever the
textual content. Even if there is valid content, the messenger is too flawed
for my individual taste. I wouldn't mind a little "forum moderation" here
(i.e., why repost this contributor at all?).

Re First Amendment rights-- these rights are protection against government
interference and censorship of ideas-- not editorial prerogatives-- and not
passing along obvious nonsense in a privately owned and maintained forum.

Keep up the good work, Pat!

william #2243

*****************************

Your question is a good one. I will take it under advisement.

Gotta agree with you about the issues of punctuation... also spelling and
sentence structure.

OK, this thread dies today. It doesn't contribute much, but if has served to
help some folks understand who we are, and what we are doing, I guess it was
worth it.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:36:45 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: bones

From William Dohenyguy

Hi Gang:

     I remember someone on the Forum saying the bone found on Niku might
have been thrown away. I can't buy that. More than likely, they were buried
in an unmarked paupers grave. I read all of Tom's reports, but I don't
recall anything about searches in graveyards.

William LTM

*****************************

Well, I don't think we sent the gang out with the resources to do major
excavation work. The first step has been to look for the box, and/or the
bones, in the nooks and crannies of the buildings.

Tom, what about mass burials for the old bones around a medical school, did
you get any feel for that?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:37:57 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Non Earhart Bones Found

From Tom Robison

>>From Herman
>
>Italian television today announced that scientists have found the bones of
>Dante Aleghieri, the author of "La Divina Commedia", who died in 1321.


Gosh, I hope we don't have to wait 500 years to find Amelia. I'm gonna be
awful tired by then ....


Re: Pat's Definitions and Explanations:

Well said, Pat. Methinks Ric should go on "vacation" more often

Tom #2179
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:02:38 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Fiji reports

From Don Neumann

Pat,

As Kris Tague & Tom King have observed, there is still a great wealth of
information available concerning an area & time frame in the South
Pacific that, in light of subsequent events (WWII) occurring in that
part of the world, has been largely ignored.      The "paper trail",
more often than not, leads to the uncovering of seemingly unfathomable
mysteries, so it is very encouraging that the trip to Fiji has at least
been very productive in developing previously unknown documents &
sources of additional information to be explored & investigated.

Given the British penchant for recording & documenting activities in
their colonial possessions, it would seem likely that we may have just
begun to scratch the surface of the information yet avaiable regarding
the Western Pacific High Commission's activities in regard to the
findings on Gardner Island!

Don Neumann
sandon@webtv.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:16:15 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Landing or controlled crash?

From William Dohenyguy

Hi Gang:

     A thousand questions, no answers. Ok, Niku is the landing or crash
location. I still find is hard to swallow AE would land (wheels down) of the
flat reef. It is easy to believe she bellied in on the sand. This touch down
would bend the props without a doubt. So, how did the pair manage radio
signals three days after they were reported missing?
---------------------------------------------------
It is important to remember that *any* sentence which contains "would have
done this or that" is purely speculative.

At the time of Earhart's disappearance, retractable gear aircraft were still
quite new. While the conventional wisdom now would call for a wheels up
landing in order to enhance survivability, there wasn't any CW then---it was
all too new. Our opinion is that Earhart would have been very very reluctant
to land wheels up because that would end the flight. She had the pattern of
getting lost, landing, figuring out where she was, getting help, and
continuing; our opinion is that she would expect this pattern to repeat
itself. So a wheels down landing on the reef flat, which would preserve the
operational integrity of the aircraft, makes more sense in the context of the
times, the environment, her known history, and the availability of an
adequate place to put the aircraft.
---------------------------------------------------

 First, have the radio
calls been verified to be from the downed Electra?

-------------------------------------------------
No, not in the sense of absolute certainty. There is some divergence of
opinion on this issue.
-------------------------------------------------

Second, is there enough
charge in the radio batteries to send messages without running the starboard
engine?

------------------------------------------------
Not for as long as the calls were heard.
------------------------------------------------

Third, if the props were damage, did they have the tools to remove
the props and run the engines to generate power?

------------------------------------------------
No. Nor the knowledge.
------------------------------------------------

I imagine the engines would
overheat quickly, but how long would they have to run the engine to charge
the batts?

------------------------------------------------
Out of my field of expertise, sorry. There was a long and complicated thread
on this subject a few months ago. Please check the Highlights on our web site.
------------------------------------------------

Fourth, what is the stall speed of the Electra?

-------------------------------------------------
I have no idea. Anyone?
------------------------------------------------

Fifth, in a
controlled crash landing, what would be the slowest speed the Electra could
manage and still maintain some type of control?

------------------------------------------------
Airplane people?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:20:12 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Tuesday in Suva, late

This got lost in the mail and just arrived today from Kris Tague.

**********************************

Here is what I've decided are the first priority items ad the second
priority in no particular order.

First priority

search remaining impt. buildings :  Vaskess outbuildings, government offices
and St. Andrews.

get names of I Kiribati Niku survivors from St. Andrews parishioners and
Emily.

if possible locate Vaskess' executor and estate records

follow up on Dr. Hemming lead from Margaret Guthrie

more questions for Emily

see if there are any acquisiton records at the museum or a record of the
items put in the cave for storage during WWII

check out Hoodless house archives

review telegram traffic from 1938-45 era


Second priority

(actually I'm worried about making it through the first list!)

review secondary material at archives ( contemporary publications by Luke,
Hoodless and Verrier)

review death records and burial records (the latter are at the prison board
because prisoners do the burying)

videotaping of new batch of bones at the museum I'll leave to Kar.

Arrange shipment home for extra materials..TIGHAR stuff, files etc.

follow up on leads from paper (of course a preliminary call could move one
of these up to number wo)

So there it is. Tom and Barb and Pat I'd appreciate your two cents. The
first list needs to be prioritized as well but also will need to be
flexible to accommodate for external delays.

*********************************

Whew!!! sounds like a huge amount of work to get through.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:22:23 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Thursday in Suva

From Kris Tague

*********************************

Feeling time pressure to get in as much as I can and just found out that
Monday is a Holiday :(

No luck on St. Andrews as yet. Tofinga arranging a second meeting with
Emily. Tracked down the Public Trustees 0ffice and got the name of the person
to see. Hopefully we'll be able to track down executors of a few estates
that way.Talked with Kate about Museum archives and arranged to take a look
at them. First I'll look at the registrar's list then the
archives...apparently they are spread around in no particular order. That is
very common with archives..the last thing to be catalogued it seems.

Started looking at telegram traffic and got through a few years. Also went
through the index to confidential files pre-war. Tomorrow I'll try to cover
the rest of the telegrams through 1942 and medical records as well. I'll be
able to do it in a day if I'm lucky and I think I need to do that. Just one
reference to the bones or box that we haven't seen might lead us to them.
I'm seeing familiar names: Gatty, McPherson, Luke etc. Will be there first
thing tomorrow morning and do what I can then go by the Museum at 100p
while archives are closed for lunch and try to get a feel for the size of
the archival material. Hopefully I can cover that, the Public Trustees
Office and Emily. I'm going to have to postpone leaving for at least one
day in order to finish up this basic list. Would have made it without the
holiday. The guys can't go in the museum archives or classified archives so
they are cooling their heels. Maybe I'll set them loose on the Registrars
office to confirm date of death for key people which we can
use to fan out looking for more info. Problem is if I do that it will take
away and hour or two of key archive time. We'll see. Need to remember to
extend apt. for Kar.

Talk to you all tomorrow.

Kris
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:23:28 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Off topic, but relevant anyway

From Jon Watson

Pat, Can't resist.

Hours of boredom interspersed with moments of terror

If a man lies to his airplane, it will surely kill him...

ltm

jon 2266

***********************

sounds like an expedition....
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:46:46 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Earhart Reading List

From Robert Klaus

Pat,
  I found an interesting title in an old bookstore (The Oregon Bookman,
Portland, OR).  "Hollywood Pilot" by Don Dwiggens, published by Curtis Books
in 1967.  It is the authorized biography of Paul Mantz.  The middle third or
so concerns AE.
  Nothing astounding, but it is interesting how the thing looked from his
point of view.  A few noteworthy things are his discussion of planned
procedures, equipment on board, and the immediate aftermath of the loss.  He
(Mantz) apparently had a very good opinion of FNs skills, and a poor opinion
of the radio equipment.
  Two interesting post loss items are mention of a commercial broadcast which
recreated the final communications, and GPs telegram urging the Coast Guard
to search the Phoenix Islands.  According to Mantz the commercial broadcast
(which went out within days of the loss) was the source of some of the bogus
messages overheard later.
  Thanks for your attention,
  LTM
  Robert Klaus

  PS  Off topic; Don't forget the TAC Airlift Motto: "Semper Gumbi"  (Always
Flexible).

****************************

It's an interesting book in its own right.... I read it years ago, in fact
before we got involved with the Earhart disappearance. Guess I should re-read
it.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:30:40 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Non-earhart bones

From Greg Bartram

My first contribution, and it's off topic...*SIGH*

Actually, Dante's mortal remains were ashes, not bones. His ashes were
apparently split up into three containers (sacks, if I'm not mistaken) and
the sack that was found was believed to have been misplaced by a librarian
during a reorganizing of the library.

LTM (who always liked comedy writers),

Greg Bartram
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:39:54 EDT
From:        
Subject:      No Subject

From Clyde Miller

    Just a note on the Earhart Festival.  Linda Fitch will be giving a few
young persons rides Saturday Morning at the festival aboard the Lockheed
Electra.  The riders will be determined by some unspecified method at 8 AM
during the festivities.


Clyde Miller
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:40:40 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Astrodome?

From BethPage

Did Earhart's Electra have any overhead windows for Noonan to take sextant
sights?

*********************

No, he worked out of the regular windows.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:43:00 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Friday in Fiji

From Kris Tague

Spent ALL day at the archives. Now that I'm in the classified stuff
I'm working with an archivist - Feroz- who has been very helpful. Good and
bad news... Good news is there are lots of medical records both confidential
and not confidential. The bad news is ...  there are lots more medical
records..... and so on. Feroz thinks it is worthwhile going through them
because there are lots of Hoodless references. I agree and I really want to
cover the archives well while I'm here.

Ric called by Sat phone last night
and asked that we arrange an interview with Emily when they get in, Russ
will videotape. I was glad because I was thinking it would be a great idea
and I also wanted to get some help for a few days next week so we can cover
the top priority list and follow up on the rest from afar. So far I've
looked at all available inbound and outbound telegrams from the Colonial
office for years '37-'40. Trouble is the inbound telegrams for 1940
are largely not available and from 1940 through the end of the war there
is a register of telegrams but no telegrams. I want to look at that but
won't do it until medical records and executive meeting minutes are plowed
through. That leaves Hoodless archives (small) and museum archives (small
and scattered) to be done by the crew in from combat duty.

Well I guess that wasn't so brief after all. Guess I'm just relieved to be
giving out information instead of absorbing it at the archives.

No stunners yet but a few interesting tidbits.

No Colonial govt. confidential telegrams about Amelia in 1937-1938. The
flight and the search aren't mentioned at all though as you know there is
wphc telegram traffic on it.

Harold Gatty was employed by Pan American and kept buzzing through Suva to
talk about air service. Harry Luke (Governor and Western Pacific High
Comissioner) and crew were very anxious to have them come in.

There aren't many items that merit more than 2 telegrams let alone a series
as the Gallagher 'grams are. Only on-going war prep is a really recurring
subject.

Got a copy of responsibilities of the Pathologist which was an advertised
opening after Jock MacPherson was promoted in 1940-41. It gives interesting
insight as to what MacPherson's role in examining the bones would have
been.

Luke state in correspondence that "there are no aircraft operating in Fiji
at this time" 1939  and he remarks on the weather to a colleague after his
return from the Phoenix Island trip of 1941 "I see that you have just had
your first taste of westerly weather. Similar weather was prevalent in the
Gilbert and Ellis Islands during the latter part of last year"('41)

More later

Love to Y'all,

Kris
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:47:50 EDT
From:        
Subject:      A request from Moscow

From Pat

I received an email yesterday from a journalist in Moscow who is trying to
write an article about Amelia Earhart for a magazine there. He is having a
bit of a problem finding some biographical information he needs. I had
suggested "Amelia, My Courageous Sister" to him before I knew he was on a
very tight deadline, thinking that we could round a copy up and send it to
him. But that won't work.

Here is the email he sent today:

***************************************

Thank You for your reply. Naturally it's very difficult to find
the mentioned book in Moscow. But really what I need now urgently are quite
short biographies of Alfred Otis and Amelia's sister (because I prepare an
article for tne next weekly issue) with a little description of their
personal characters and features. No more than half a standard page. I
appreciate very much your sending of this short "bio-reviews". Surely I'll
put down an acknowledgment personally to You and your Organization in my
article (and if You permit me TIGHAR E-mail)
Yours sincerely

Serguei Smirnov, Moscow, Russia

***************************************

We don't have anything like that on tap here in Wilmington. I would be very,
very grateful if some one of you Forumites would take on the task of
summarizing the biographical info he needs and sending it to me for
transmission to him. I am up to my ears in the ordinary TIGHAR stuff and I
just don't see myself having the time before Ric gets back.... which would be
too late for his deadline.

Anyone?

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:59:02 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Forum Questions

From Kris Tague

Hello forum,

Saturday morning is Suva and I thought I'd answer a few questions that had
come up on the forum.

Re: The Colonial War Memorial Hospital - The Hospital isn't actually a
buidling but a sprawling complex of buildings from several eras ranging
over two hilltops. We didn't get in because the Director said no (in no
uncertain terms). Tom can divulge the rest of the story if he wishes. Since
he is a gentleman I doubt he will. By the way Tom I saw Dr. Schramm at her
desk (on TV) and I'm very glad I can put a face to the name.

Re: bones - Well there are lots of ideas on what might have happened to the
bones and I think it is good to explore all of them. Several Drs. who work
with Medical Schools have all independantly said that the bones would have
been kept a part of the school collection. Seems it is a point of view
commmon to the profession. The idea of them being "thrown away" actually
came from the school itself. The Director (now retired) indicated that the
curriculum had switched to plastic replicas for study and the bone
collection was disposed of. (read burned probably). Since we have gotten
here we have found that isn't the case from front line staff. As for being
buried... I agree. This is another avenue we are exploring. We may not get to
it this trip but we've gathered the government contacts to follow up death
certificates, burial permits and estates. I'll send along a message from a
couple of months ago pondering this same question.

Kris
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:00:50 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome?

From Frank Kuhre

No, he got his shots at the rear window R/H aft.  He had a little table set
up and would shoot the line from there.  I imagine it was very difficult.

**********************************

Randy, do you recall any discussions with Ric about this?

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:02:55 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Report from expedition

From William Dohenyguy

Hi Pat:

     Hows the crew doing? Are they in good spirits? I realize you can't post
a significant fine, but just in general whats going on? Any problems with
weather or equipment?

William LTM

************************

I talked to Ric last night, they were about... 24 hours out of Suva. Two are
sick with a bug the I-Kiribati rep brought aboard and are on antibiotics,
otherwise all fine, everything is going well. In fact, they are about a day
ahead they made such good time coming back.

I expect there will be more tonight as Ric was going to call as soon as he
could get a land line in Suva.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:41:58 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: A request from Moscow

From Shirley

Hope this is useful - if you don't already have same.

Alfred E. Otis  - noted lawyer and later judge and grandfather of Amelia
Earhart was born in 1827 in Hingham, Massachusetts.

At age nine his parents went west to Michigan and he stayed with his
grandparents in New York until age 14 when he joined his parents.

At age 22 he put himself through college, graduating from the University of
Michigan in 1852.  He then went to Mississippi to teach school and studied
law, graduating from the Louisville Law School in 1854.

In October 1855 he moved to Leavenworth, Kansas,  then transferred to
Atchison, Kansas and worked in a law firm.  By age 35 he was a full law
partner and settled in Atchison.

He married Amelia Harres in 1862 and they resided in a lovely home on a hill
overlooking the river.  (Amelia Earhart was born in this home on 7/24/1897.)

He was elected to the bench (judge) in 1876.

He was an active abolitionist and had even smuggled runaway slaves.  He was a
very successful man and provided his family with many amenities such as
maids, cooks, horses to ride, and gardens for beauty.  He had served with a
Kansas regiment during the Civil War.



Pat - I can't seem to locate the date of his death in any of the books I
have, but it must have been around 1908 - 1909 (?)   Maybe someone else knows
or maybe it doesnt' really matter.
If you would like me to continue with something on the sister, I will be glad
to  put something together.

Shirley 2299

*********************

Shirley, this is *just* what our friend needs. Thanks so much.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:46:00 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Randy Jacobson

Frank is right about shooting through the RH window, but undoubtedly, he
also shot sights through the cockpit when expedient to do so (line of sight
sorta thing), since you need two sight lines that nearly cross at 90
degrees for a good fix.  I doubt they would move the plane just so FN could
get a fix.  Speaking of needing a fix...I'm going to the refrigerator right
now!
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:48:41 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Loose threads

From Andrew McKenna

Just a loose thread in my mind - has anyone asked the woman in Fiji (Emily?),
formerly a cild on Niku, if she recognized one of the postal covers carried
by Amelia?  Can we scan a copy and e-mail it to Fiji for the interview?

Another loose thread regarding Mantz and the planning for the first trip
going west from Hawaii.  It would have been logical for them to have planned
contingencies should they miss Howland going west, and only a few degrees off
course to the left would have put them in the area of the Phoenix Islands.
Carrington in his book mentions, somewhat off the cuff, that the Phoenix
Islands were examined closely exactly for this purpose, although he cites no
source.  It would seem logical.

The point is that contingency planning should have included looking at the
Phoenix Islands from the very start, and that heading for them in the event
of not finding Howland may not have been some sort of spur of the moment
decision made in the air, rather a carefully thought out plan that had been
in the back of their heads for a long time.

Too bad they didn't formalize that plan and tell anyone.

LTM (who always wants to know what your contingency plan is)

Andrew McKenna  1045C

*********************

As you say, it would make sense that Noonan would have had an alternate
planned, and of course the Phoenix Islands were the obvious alternate. But
we'll never know, I guess, if that's what was in his head.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:00:55 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Non Earhart Bones Found

From Tom King

Sorry to be long in replying to Jon's query re. Library in Fiji -- my laptop
got broken in Yosemite, and I'm just now getting (a) home and (b) back on
line.  Just talked with Ric in Fiji, by the way, re. further interviews with
Emily and Mrs. O'Brian, and Kar's inspection of the Museum Bones, scheduled
for Tuesday.

Anyway, yes, there's a Library in Fiji -- a Carnegie Library in Suva, as a
matter of fact, and apparently some if not all of the Museum collections were
there before the War.  We've looked around, though not conducted a detailed
search; we're assured everything was cleaned out and there's nothing there
now but books; since it's in active use by people who would likely notice a
box of bones lying around, it was kind of low on our priority list.  The
Museum collections apparently went from the Library to the caves during WWII,
and then were in transit someplace for awhile thereafter before they wound up
in the current Museum building in the 1950s.  We have a lot of stuff to
untangle about the peregrinations of the Museum collection and stuff that
might have gotten mixed up with it -- but the first step is to check the
bones that are in the collection NOW.  Anyhow, yes there's a Library, yes
it's a possible site, no we haven't checked in in detail.  One of MANY things
yet to be done, once we can take a breath and figure out next steps.

LTM (who loves libraries)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:02:01 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Greetings for a birthday

From Mary Jane

Happy Birthday Amelia
Mary Jane

*******************

Well, so it is. Thanks for reminding us!

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:17:07 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: the Balance Swings?

From Tom King

Phil says:  "The thing in this that grabs me by the lapels and shouts in my
face is a
real live eyewitness placing aircraft wreckage on the island around 1940.
Surely about as good as anecdotal evidence could be, given that there is
absolutely no doubt this time that it is the right island?"

The thing we've got to be careful about is the problem that's inherent in
eyewitness accounts:  not only may they simply be wrong, in some cases they
reflect an attempt to say what the speaker thinks is expected, rather than
what's really so.  I don't THINK this is the case here, but that's the
danger.  We tried to be very careful not to say anything that could lead
Emily astray, but the fact is that we'd given Mr. Tofiga copies of TIGHAR
TRACKS and he'd explained to her the purpose of our search, so there's always
the possibility that she was inadvertently remembering things the way she
thought we wanted them remembered.

I think that at the very least, though, we now have a number of informants
reporting aircraft wreckage along the Nutiran shore at various points in
time, including before WWII.  Collectively, these still provide only the
basis for a testable hypothesis, but it's a more strongly grounded hypothesis
than any other we know of.

Hopefully the further interviews that Ric plans with Emily and others while
in Fiji will clarify things a bit more.

LTM (who's cautious about everything she hears)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:19:29 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Fiji report

From Tom King

Re. the Colonial War Memorial Hospital -- our search request was rather
summarily denied by the Medical Director, Dr. Mary Schram.  As Kris has
suggested, it would be be -- uh -- ungentlemanly of me to try to characterize
her motivation, but I didn't push the matter for a several reasons. First
off, the Hospital is a really big, complicated place; we would never have had
time to do it justice.  Second, we had no idea where to start -- no specific
places to start looking.  Third, a general search might well have created
some unjustifiable interference with hospital functions.  Fourth (though this
was by far the least convincing), Dr. Schram assured me that in cleaning out
all the "junk" in the hospital (an enterprise to which she's dedicated),
she's sure that bones, if found, would be brought to her, and they haven't
been.  Overall, it seemed like the smarter way to skin the cat was to offer
the reward, as we've done, perhaps motivating hospital personnel to look
around themselves.

LTM (who tries to stay out of hospitals)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:17:58 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Libraries

From Tom King

More re. libraries:  There's also a library at the University of the South
Pacific.  Certainly the bones could have wound up there, or in the Suva
Library, or a whole lot of other places.  Trouble is, once you get beyond the
obvious places like the old Central Med School, Dr. Hoodless' house, the Med
School anatomy collection, the offices of the WPHC, and the buildings at
Tamavua to which the CMS moved in '53, and start speculating about how the
bones could have gone here or could have gone there, the possibilities expand
exponentially.  There are lots and lots of old government buildings in Suva,
and of course there are plenty of other places the bones could have gone,
too.  We've pursued some possibilities -- the Masonic Lodge, for example, and
the Museum, in both cases because of specific suggestions and reports.
Unfortunately, however, we couldn't chase down every possibility, and we
concluded that it wouldn't be very efficient to try.  So we posted a reward
for information, hoping to widen the network of people looking for the
things.  Hopefully if the bones are tucked away in a library, or in the
bowels of the hospital, or in someone's private attic, somebody will remember
seeing them and want to claim the reward.

LTM (who always enjoys a good read)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:20:30 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Bones

From Tom King

<<
 Tom, what about mass burials for the old bones around a medical school, did
 you get any feel for that?
  >>
According to Med School personnel, worked over cadavers are (a) treated in
accordance with the deceased or his/her family's stated desires, (b) stripped
of flesh and integrated into the Anatomy Dept's bone collection, or (c)
cremated, with the ashes buried.  Nobody we talked with had any recollection
of bones being disposed of at all, except that in some cases students have
apparently walked off with them.

The Anatomy Dept. maintains a handwritten log of incoming cadavers, which
might be worth more checking than I was able to give it; I've referred this
to Kris if she can get to it.  The Lab Manager assured me that it started
only in the 1970s and contained only cadaver information (name, place of
death, desires of next of kin, etc.).  The Med. School also maintains a
"Non-Disposable Resources" record, which apparently lists everything they
have that they don't use up.  There are also records of the cemeteries in
which the ashes of used-up cadavers get disposed of.  Kris is pursuing these,
as she can.  This will very likely wind up being another thing that needs
doing in more detail than time permits, this trip.

LTM (who was a bit put off by a corpse in a vat in the Anatomy Lab)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:20:56 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Fiji reports

From Tom King

I couldn't agree more with Don.  We've uncovered a lot more questions than
answers.

Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:21:48 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Contingency plans

From Don Neumann

Andrew McKenna said:

"...The point is that contingency planning should have included looking
at the Phoenix Islands from the very start, and that heading for them in
the event of not finding Howland may not have been some sort of spur of
the moment decision made in the air, rather a carefully thought out plan
that had been in the back of their heads for a long time."

If such a contingency plan had been included in their thinking, it would
seem to lend support to the theory that _IF_ Fred Noonan did utilize
offset navigation in plotting the course to Howland, an offset to the
_north_ of the island would have been in order so that by turning south
on their LOP, in the event they "missed" the island, their southeasterly
course on the LOP would eventually transect the Phoenix chain.
Unfortunately, AE's transmission: "...We must be on you but can't see
you"..., would seem to suggest that Fred had plotted a _direct_ course
to Howland, without utilizing any Offset.

In any event,  simply examining a map/chart of the area, would make
painfully obvious that the only other landfall, within the range of
their (presumed) remaining fuel supply, (being unable to find Howland)
would be the Phoenix Chain & would only require following the only
(presumably) reliable LOP that Noonan had plotted, to the southeast,
into the risen sun.

Don Neumann
sandon@webtv.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:18:36 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Non-Earhart bones found

From Tom King

Maybe the lesson here has something to do with being a devine comedy.

Tom King

*****************

Thanks, Tom, I knew we could count on you.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:24:36 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Mark Prange

>From Frank Kuhre
>
>No, he got his shots at the rear window R/H aft.  He had a little table set
>up and would shoot the line from there.  I imagine it was very difficult.
>
>**********************************
>
>
--Especially difficult since the sun would be off the left wing while  they
were flying SE toward Gardner along the Sun Line.  Comparing shots of the
sun with what they should be at that instant along the Sun Line through
Howland, or, perhaps also computed through Gardner, is how the Sun Line can
be progressively tracked.  (I have read in some places that the Sun Line at
sunrise was advanced by dead reckoning to where it would pass through
Howland.  Losing the Sun would require that, but so long as the sun is
visible sextant sights of it give the navigator a chance to measure how far
he is from the Line).

I had feared that there was no astrodome on her Electra, but hoped that some
skylight were available.  Evidently Noonan had only a window, and that on
the starboard side.  If that is the case, then it seems that Sun sights
wouldn't be possible without the aircraft occasionally flying in a NW
direction.

The navigational problems of locating Howland and Gardner are about the
same; having both sun and moon helps, but the lack of good all-around
visibility for the navigator doesn't.  The quarter moon was very high in the
sky that day at daybreak, and perhaps impossible to sight then without an
overhead window.  As the morning progressed it would have come down into
sight in the NW, setting a little before local apparent noon.

At about what time would the plane have reached Gardner?

**********************

Randy?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:25:36 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Mark Prange

>From Randy Jacobson
>
>undoubtedly, [Noonan] also shot sights through the cockpit when expedient
>to do so......


Did Noonan have access to the front of the aircraft, or was it blocked?

****************************

Yes, he did. In fact, from what we can see of photos and film taken during
the trip, he almost always rode up front.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:55:08 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: A request from Moscow

From Gene Dangelo

Hey gang!

    Remember that Amelia Earhart genealogy that I found back to the
1400's?  The Otis info was in there! I gave the entire packet to Barbara
Norris. Check with her. Ric wasn't sure of what value such information
would be at the time I offered it to him. Now it's relevant. Barb has it
now. I'm sure that she'll gladly send you copies.

Best wishes to all,
Dr. Gene Dangelo, # 2211   :)

*****************************

I don't know if Barb is back from Fiji yet.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:57:12 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Birthday Greetings

From Vern Klein

>>From Mary Jane
>
>Happy Birthday Amelia
>Mary Jane
>

From Vern

Yep, Saturday was the day!  It worked out nicely for the Annual Earhart
Festival in Atchison this weekend.  A weekend of Niku-like temperatures!
Actual temperature Saturday was 100 degrees F.  Today is about the same.
The "comfort index" is running about 110 degrees.

You wouldn't know of the Atchison festival here in Kansas City, Missouri.
Whatever may go on in the rest of the world is blanked out by something
having to do with baseball.

We know Linda Finch was to put in an appearance with her Electra.  I suppose
some of the 99s did something like a fly-in.  1999, it is their year isn't it?

Question:  I've probably read it half a dozen times but it didn't take.
Why are they called the 99s??  Amelia started it did she not?

******************************

They're called the 99s because that was the original  membership of the
group---IIRC, all women pilots were invited, and 99 signed up. Amelia was one
of the original group, yes.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:58:27 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Randy Jacobson

TIGHAR's best estimate of arrival at Niku would be shortly before noon,
Itasca time.

By the way, continuing shooting the sun for sunlines after sunrise offers
little extra information.  It takes about 2 hours for the sun to deviate
from its azimuth from north, and one has to measure the height of the limb
of the sun above the horizon to get the position above the horizon.  Doing
so allows one in Earhart's case to get another estimate of longitude
(really 157/337 line), but the actual azimuthal line is calculated, not
observed.  You need another sighting at a good angle from the sun to get a
good fix.  Now, the moon was out, but shots on the moon are difficult to
calculate, as there are a number of calculations and adjustments to make.
 It probably would have been better for Noonan to help Amelia look out the
window for something interesting that might be out there, rather than
poring over algebraic equations.

On Sunday, July 25, 1999 6:25 PM, Richard E. Gillespie [SMTP:TIGHAR1@aol
.com] wrote:
> From Mark Prange
>
> >From Frank Kuhre
> >
> >No, he got his shots at the rear window R/H aft.  He had a little table
set
> >up and would shoot the line from there.  I imagine it was very
difficult.
> >
> >**********************************
> >
> >
> --Especially difficult since the sun would be off the left wing while
 they
> were flying SE toward Gardner along the Sun Line.  Comparing shots of the
> sun with what they should be at that instant along the Sun Line through
> Howland, or, perhaps also computed through Gardner, is how the Sun Line
can
> be progressively tracked.  (I have read in some places that the Sun Line
at
> sunrise was advanced by dead reckoning to where it would pass through
> Howland.  Losing the Sun would require that, but so long as the sun is
> visible sextant sights of it give the navigator a chance to measure how
far
> he is from the Line).
>
> I had feared that there was no astrodome on her Electra, but hoped that
some
> skylight were available.  Evidently Noonan had only a window, and that on
> the starboard side.  If that is the case, then it seems that Sun sights
> wouldn't be possible without the aircraft occasionally flying in a NW
> direction.
>
> The navigational problems of locating Howland and Gardner are about the
> same; having both sun and moon helps, but the lack of good all-around
> visibility for the navigator doesn't.  The quarter moon was very high in
the
> sky that day at daybreak, and perhaps impossible to sight then without an
> overhead window.  As the morning progressed it would have come down into
> sight in the NW, setting a little before local apparent noon.
>
> At about what time would the plane have reached Gardner?
>
> **********************
>
> Randy?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:21:45 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Vern Klein

From Vern  2124

Re:  Sunrise Line of Position.

Were they not flying almost directly into the sunrise?  Fred could easily
check the time of sunrise from his co-pilot's position.  That's all he
needed to plot the LoP to be advanced by dead reckoning to pass through
Howland -- and through the Phoenix group.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:21:16 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: A Request from Moscow

From Vern Klein

From Vern  2124

Shirley,

Thanks for upholding the forum's reputation for coming up with an answer to
just about anything!  Well done.

To Russia with LTM
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:20:39 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Libraries

From Tom Robison

Tom King wrote:
"Hopefully if the bones are tucked away in a library, or in the
bowels of the hospital, or in someone's private attic, somebody will remember
seeing them and want to claim the reward."

It just occurred to me that the Army has a, well, for want of a better
term, "bone lab" in Hawaii. I can't think of the name of it right now, but
it's the lab where all remains of Korea & Vietnam MIAs are sent for
identification.

Do they have a repository of unidentified remains? Is it possible that,
somewhere along the way, someone found a box of old bones and, thinking
they might be remains of US personnel from WWII, sent them to Hawaii?

I don't know how you'd trace them, but as I said, it was just a thought.

LTM,
Tom #2179

Tom Robison
Ossian, Indiana
tcrobi@adamswells.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:22:31 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Fiji reports

From William Dohenyguy

Hi Pat, Tom, Gang:

    From reading Tom's reports, I get the impression that the team was not
expected in Fiji to do what they plan to do. Problems with Dr. Schram? Was
she advised prior to your presents on the island or did you just walk
through the door and lay everything on her at a moments notice? If she knew
of your coming, then why the hostility? Is this a Pacific Islander thing?

William LTM (Bitting nails)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:27:11 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Reward

From William Dohenyguy

Hi Tom:

     A thought just crossed my mind. After the battle of the Little bighorn,
some well to do entered the indian nation. His objective was to find the
indian who killed Custer. He offered a great reward, things that these plain
indians could use, things that were just too temping to refuse. Well, the
indians thought, they will surely kill who ever we pick, but they picked one
anyway, of coarse he was not the killer of Custer or killed, and surely the
indians just added more clouds to the situation. The point being, nothing
was gained. The indians got their stuff, but who killed custer stills
remains a mystery.
     $500.00 for information on the bones found on Niku, yes, I found them,
send me a check and I will tell you were I hid them.

William LTM

*******************************

Well, actually, there are simple safeguards for this sort of thing, and all
in all, I'm not planning to worry about it. Tom?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:29:10 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Sumner Line

From Mark Prange

>....the only other landfall, within the range of
>their (presumed) remaining fuel supply, (being unable to find Howland)
>would be the Phoenix Chain & would only require following the only
>(presumably) reliable LOP that Noonan had plotted, to the southeast,
>into the risen sun.
>
>Don Neumann
>sandon@webtv.net


I believe that the direction to the rising sun was off to the northeast (067
degrees), perpendicular to the 157-337 LOP through Howland.

It's entirely possible that Noonan also had plotted an LOP through some
alternate in the Phoenix Group.  I have read recently that his observations
could be made from the front of the aircraft as well as the right rear
window.  If true, then he could sight the sun off to the left during the
flight along the LOP.  Until a little before noon the moon would have been
visible, unless obscured by haze or cloud.

It is that combination of nearly perpendicular LOPs from the Sun and the
Moon that perhaps gave Noonan the confidence to prolong his  search for
Howland.

Mark Prange
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:28:00 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Hollywood Pilot

From Robert Klaus

Pat,
  In reference to the current discussion of navigation.  The earlier
mentioned biography of Paul Mantz "Hollywood Pilot" refers to Fred Noonan's'
use of the offset method of navigation, and to the problems of getting a sun
shot from the aft cabin.  Apparently there originally was a plan to install
an upper hatch in aft cabin which could be removed in flight.  This was
rejected by the original navigator as unnecessary.
  It might be worthwhile to run down the author (Don Dwiggens) to find if he
has any more information, such as interview tapes or notes, which did not get
into the book.  This may provide more detailed information concerning
preparation, procedures and equipment on board.
LTM
Robert Klaus
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:17:36 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Fiji Reports

From Tom King

Re. Dr. Schram: she'd had a letter from the Director of the Fiji Museum well
before our arrival; just assured me she hadn't.  It's not a Pacific Islands
thing; I think it may be a doctor thing, but that's another matter.

In preparation for the trip, we worked through the Fiji Museum to make formal
contacts, following appropriate protocol, but of course once we were there a
lot of informal networking took place.

LTM (who has sympathy for harassed hospital administrators)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:18:03 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Libraries

From Tom King

Re. TomRobison's query about the Army's Central Identification Lab in Hawaii:
I have a friend there and visited a couple of months ago, discussed our
project.  No hot prospects there, but a fascinating place, doing interesting
work.

LTM (who liked having an excuse to go to Hawaii)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:18:40 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Reward

From Tom King

Re. safeguards:  Sure; our ad offers the reward only upon authentication of
the recovery of the bones, the sextant box, or the parcel(s) containing shoe
parts, etc..  We authenticate before we pay.

I've never heard the Little Bighorn story (well, THAT Little Bighorn story),
but there are lots of similar ones bouncing around archaeology.

LTM (who's very careful with money)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:19:24 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Sumner Line

From Tom King

<< It's entirely possible that Noonan also had plotted an LOP through some
 alternate in the Phoenix Group. >>

As long as I'm dominating the airwaves, I can't resist a comment on the above
possibility.  It's certainly possible.  Trouble is, we don't have the
resources to search all the Phoenix Islands, so we've concentrated on the two
that are closest to Noonan's last reported LOP -- McKean and Nikumaroro.  We
scratched McKean after a recon in '89, and we've had our hands full doing
justice to Nikumaroro ever since.

LTM (who'd LOVE to visit the other Phoenices)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:22:20 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: sun lines
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From Cam Warren

Doesn't the sun rise due east at the equator (i.e.
bearing 90=B0 true)?  And I'm sure the Electra had
windows on both sides; look at the photos.
Further, logical as it may seem, I haven't seen any
proof Fred was sitting up front, bar a couple of
notes AE made early in the flight.  He certainly
wasn't allowed to use the radio if he was in the
co-pilot's seat.

Cam Warren

*********************************

Sun lines are Randy's department.

The photographs and film available show Noonan getting into and out of the aircraft in front, obviously sitting in the right seat.

Yes, there were windows on both sides of the aircraft.

I dunno about the radios.... far as I know Earhart did the radios. But that'=
s not very far. I would personally back off from using a word like "allowed."

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:23:11 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Goerner files

From Cam Warren

Re the recent query about the Goerner Files at the
Nimitz Museum:

There are two folders of correspondence with the
State Dept., contents unknown at the moment. No
exchanges between Goerner and Kelly Johnson,
but a Dwiggins file, and "Lockheed leads" which
might contain some engine info.

As for Fred's alleged reluctance to produce data
when alive, I can only say his files were in pretty
chaotic condition - nothing computerized then -
and his chances of finding stuff at a moment's
notice highly unlikely. Now, they're much better
organized, thanks to a team from the Amelia
Earhart Society, who undertook the job in the
public interest.

Further, too many people judge Goerner solely
by his 1966 book. His continued research over
the following 30 years, into all facets of the
Earhart disappearance, was a MAJOR contrib-
ution to the ongoing investigation.

Finally, if anybody wants a copy of the Goerner
files catalog (20 pages) I'll be glad to mail them
same for a modest $10 (covering duplicating
and shipping), or they can probably get one
from the Museum.

Cam Warren
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:25:10 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Mark Prange

>.......continuing shooting the sun for sunlines after sunrise offers
>little extra information.

Shooting the sun at any time, and comparing that height with the height it
would be if sighted at from Howland, would tell the navigator how far he was
from the LOP running across Howland.

>the moon was out, but shots on the moon are difficult to
>calculate, as there are a number of calculations and adjustments to make.

Yes--an adjustment for parallax.  It would be negligible early in the
morning when the moon was high, and become more considerable as the morning
went on.  (But the day of the flight was one of the few each month that the
sun and moon lines are nearly perpendicular, and the moon is available in
the morning.  Moon sights would fix the position along the 157-337 LOP).

>  It probably would have been better for Noonan to help Amelia look out the
>window for something interesting that might be out there, rather than
>poring over algebraic equations.

Computing (before the day of the flight) the height of the sun and moon for
frequent intervals simplifies the navigator's task in flight.  But if the
plane was still aloft hours after ETA, or if a computation error was
suspected it is possible that Noonan was having to compute again from
scratch.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:26:42 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Randy Jacobson

To do this accurately, one must measure precisely the second the upper limb
of the sun appears above the horizon, or when the lower limb appears, and
make the appropriate adjustments.  You just can't look out a window, seeing
twilight, and say, yup, its dawn.  Each second of time error is .25
nautical miles!

On Monday, July 26, 1999 12:22 PM, Richard E. Gillespie
[SMTP:TIGHAR1@aol.com] wrote:
> From Vern Klein
>
> From Vern  2124
>
> Re:  Sunrise Line of Position.
>
> Were they not flying almost directly into the sunrise?  Fred could easily
> check the time of sunrise from his co-pilot's position.  That's all he
> needed to plot the LoP to be advanced by dead reckoning to pass through
> Howland -- and through the Phoenix group.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:27:29 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: the comedy act

From Jim Kelly

To Tom King:
Would a devine comedy be of any help in the underbrush at Niku?
LTM {who enjoys hearing from Tom}
Jim Kelly 2085
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:28:37 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Birthday party

From Patrick Gaston

Last Saturday night I sat on Amelia's Earhart's front lawn with my daughter,
Amelia Gaston, and watched the fireworks over the Missouri River.  It was 99
degrees (appropriate temperature, come to think of it), but a light breeze
lifted off the water and the mosquitoes apparently had taken the night off.
The fireworks were absolutely spectacular -- best display I have ever
witnessed.  Probably ten thousand people watched from the streets of downtown
Atchison, where the proximity of beer and soft-drink stands made it easier to
beat the Kansas heat.  A thousand or more hiked the three blocks uphill to
the Otis homestead, where the view was better from the manicured river bluffs.

Just before the fireworks started, Amy asked me where AE used to play.
"Right where you're standing," I said, "a hundred years ago."   For a moment
I pictured Millie and Pidge playing hide-and-seek behind the big elms and
amid the tall brush that stretched down to the riverbank.  Then the first
skyrockets blossomed gold and red, rendering all attempts at conversation
futile for the next 30 minutes.  Kinda hard to talk with your mouth agape.

All in all it was a great time, and Amy made us promise to come back next
year, when she will be 12 and her namesake 103.  I'm pretty sure Amelia was
watching from wherever she's off to these days.  Happy birthday, old girl!

LTM (who always liked a lawn party)

Patrick Gaston
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:27:34 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Tet Walston

Yes, there were windows on both sides, BUT the window appertures on the right
side were used to install the pipes which led to the fuselage fuel tanks, and
thus were no longer windows.

Tet
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:26:48 EDT
From:        
Subject:      39/40 Bushnell survey

From James Thompson

  Randy Jacobson graciously allowed me to borrow
several photographs of the 1939 Busnell survey
boat sheets of Niku. Having scanned them, I've
been having a good time poring over the
resultant images. During the course of my
examination I've noticed a few things of interest:

   --the presence of several 80' towers adjacent
to what appear to be survey stations

   --a coding scheme for the survey stations
that, for the majority, consists of a 3 letter
word. Examples include "Sid", "Bri", "Gun",
"Gar", "Vil", "Ile", "The", "Age", "Rex" and
"Rec" (both near the S.S. Norwich site). Non
conforming entries include "If", "Base", "Line",
and "Astro" (which also appears in the legend of
one of the sheets associated with a set of
coordinates.)

Questions:
 1. I assume the towers were erected for the
survey. Just curious, but are there are any
remnants of them?

 2. Does anyone know where I might look to find
more information about how naval surveys were
conducted and how the station codes were derived.


Thanks.

james thompson (2185)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:32:09 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Vern Klein

>>From Randy Jacobson
>
>To do this accurately, one must measure precisely the second the upper limb
>of the sun appears above the horizon, or when the lower limb appears, and
>make the appropriate adjustments.  You just can't look out a window, seeing
>twilight, and say, yup, its dawn.  Each second of time error is .25
>nautical miles!
>
From Vern

My point here is that Fred, in the co-pilot position, and for the sunrise
LoP, had no need for side windows, etc.  They were flying almost directly
into the sunrise.  Sunrise being a bit to the north that time of year which
is exactly what established the 157/337 LoP.  True, the time had to be
accurate, but it was no problem to make the observation through the "front
window."  If he used a sextant at all, it was simply for the solar filters
and the telescopic view.

Incidently, I *think* there is one other thing that suggests Fred was riding
in the right-hand seat.  Somewhere I believe Amelia is quoted as having
said, in effect, "The receiver is under Fred's seat."  If that's a valid
quotation, we're pretty sure the receiver was under the right-hand seat.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:35:24 EDT
From:        
Subject:      A doctor's thing

From William Dohenyguy

Hi Forum:

     Ok, Tom, a doctor's thing. You dangled the hook and bait and I grabbed
it with extreme prejudice. You said this was another story, I'm all ears.

William LTM (Patrick, sounds like you and your daughter had a great time,
lucky man).
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:36:34 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Randy Jacobson

It takes more than parallax issues from calculated to observed position for
moon shots.  Since the moon's movements are very quick (astronomically
speaking) and predictable, building a table for moon positions for each day
for each hour just isn't done.  The tables provide every third day
positions of the stars, and adjustment tables for hours and days.  These
adjustments are small, and can be easily interpolated.  Not so for the
moon.  At one time (1700's), thought was given to taking time from the
position of Jupiter's moons, but the tables to do so were way too big and
cumbersome to take on ocean voyages.  The problem of time determination is
closely aligned with position determinations.

I'm getting sick referring to all of these navigational procedures and
spherical trigonometry!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:34:41 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: comedy act

From Tom King

To Jim Kelly:  Comedy, divine or otherwise, is a common characteristic of our
adventures in the Niku underbrush.

LTM (lost in the Scaevola)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:37:27 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: sun lines

From Randy Jacobson

Cam:
No, the sun doesn't always rise due east at the equator, except for two
days of the year: the spring and fall equinox!  At the summer and winter
solstices, the sun rises 23 degrees Northerly of East and Southerly of East
if you are directly at the equator.  Yes, the sunrise was nearly in
Earhart's eyes during sunrise that particular morning.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:39:13 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: sun lines

From Mark Prange

At the Equator the sun rises due east only around the date of the equinoxes.
  The time of her flight was only about 10 days after the summer solstice
when the sun's subpoint is (about 23.5 degrees) north of the Equator.  On
the morning of the flight the sun was still a little more than 23 degrees
North.  Near the Equator the direction toward the early morning sun was
about 067 degrees, or ENE.  Perpendicular to that was the 157/337 line of
position.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:21:14 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Bob Brandenburg

Noonan's problem was further complicated by the fact that there was cloud
cover
that morning.  ITASCA's deck log reported 40 percent cloud cover at 1730Z,
just 16 minutes before sunrise.  At the time of sunrise, Noonan did not see
the
true horizon, and could not observe the true time of sunrise.  His "horizon"
was the line-of-sight tangent to the top of the cloud cover.  The sun appeared
at his virtual "horizon" several minutes after true sunrise.  If he adjusted
for this and backed out the time differential, he would have had the true time
of sunrise, and his pre-computed LOP would have been usable.  If he didn't
make
the correction, then he would think he was further along his track than he
actually was.  The fact that the cloud deck was composed of spikey popping
cumulus, rather than a "smooth" marine layer, made it douibly difficult to
compensate for the delay in apparent sunrise.  About the only other option
Noonan had was to rely on DR arrival at the LOP, based on his estimated ground
speed and course made good during the night.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:21:55 EDT
From:        
Subject:      80' Towers
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From Daryll

On Tuesday James Thompson wrote ;


<From James Thompson 
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0".....=A0--the presence of several 80' towers adjacent to
what appear to be survey stations.....>.

   Can you tell how many towers are present and can you tell if there is
a certain configuration in their positions ?

Daryll
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:28:37 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Noonan's Seat

From Cam Warren

TIGHAR (Ric) holds the belief that Noonan rode in
the co-pilot's seat, based on three "clues".  These
are:

1) It would be the logical thing to do (and I agree).

2) Earhart indicates in her notes for LAST FLIGHT
that she chatted with Fred about this and that, at
certain times. (These notes, I understand, are in
the Purdue Library).

3) Early (in the flight) photos/motion picture film
shows Noonan in, or climbing in/out of the
cockpit.

But - a good detective would reject that "evidence"
as proving Noonan was up front on the Lae/
Howland leg.  At least one piece of counter-
evidence; Fred was NEVER on the radio,
strangely enough.

***************************************************************

But then, there's the evidence of the film shot *in* Lae, the morning of the
takeoff, which shows Noonan getting into the airplane first to settle into
the right seat. The absence of radio transmissions by Noonan is not evidence
that he was not in the cockpit. It's just evidence that he didn't use the
radio.

***********************************************************************
Further, all is navigation paper work/gear
were undoubtedly aft, and it's a good bet
AE wanted him back there doing his job.
SHE, after all, was the PILOT, he was a
hired hand.  There is (presently) uncorroborated
evidence he griped a bit about the "bitch up
front" to at least one individual at Lae. If so,
that tell's us a lot.  I'm still checking.

Cam Warren

************************************************************************

Well, we don't know where his paper work and gear were. His job could be done
well from the right seat. And I don't know what the "evidence" is that he
griped about her (or she about him, for that matter)---all we have in writing
is a very nice compliment to her in a private letter he wrote during the trip.

Editorializing about pilots and hired hands gets us no farther along. The
film does---and the film clearly shows him getting into the cockpit prior to
the takeoff that day.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:29:19 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Sunrise question

From Blake Herling

Just a quick (probably stupid) question about navigation from someone who
knows nothing about it, but is fascinated by it & is trying to learn a
little.(espicially as it relates to A.E. & F. N.)
Say  there were 2 navigators sitting side by side in the cockpit of a
plane. Both of them are watching out the front window waiting to shoot the
sun's upper or lower limbs as it rose to figure their LOP, or position.
Now lets say one navigator is 6'3" tall & the other is 5'5" in height, how
is this compensated for? Because the sun is going to rise earlier for the
taller navigator & later for the shorter, but they're in the same aircraft
& if every second of time = .25 N.M. how do they put their aircraft after
calculations at the same position? Would the navigation even be affected
by this, or is it irrelevant?
Just wondering.      Blake
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:29:52 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astrodome

From Bob Brandenburg

In my previous posting on this subject, I inadvertantly reversed
a causality result.

The  sentence "If he didn't make the correction, then he would
think he was further along his track than he actually was."
should have read   " . . . , then he would think he was not as
far along his track as he actually was".

Sorry for any confusion.

LTM (who hates confusing thisaway for thataway)

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:31:18 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Sunrise
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From Bob Sherman

>Doesn't the sun rise due east at the equator (i.e.
>bearing 90=B0 true)?    **** NO [only twice a year]

Due to the tilt of the earth, the sun, as seen from the earth,
travels north and south of the equator each year; about 23.5 deg. each side.  [which accounts for the 4- seasons]

When the sun is at its far northern point, [the vernal equinox]
ca June 21. It 'rises' at 90 - 23.5 =3D 66.5 deg.  A week or so
later it will have started south, being seen at 67 deg.  as it
was by Noonan.   RC  941
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:53:41 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Artificial horizon

From Mark Prange

>From Bob Brandenburg
>
>At the time of sunrise, Noonan did not see
>the
>true horizon, and could not observe the true time of sunrise.  His
>"horizon"
>was the line-of-sight tangent to the top of the cloud cover.

An aviation sextant is equipped with a bubble sight; with it the navigator
measures height above horizontal, instead of height above the natural
horizon.  What kind of sextant or octant did Noonan use?

***********************************

To the best of our knowledge, Noonan had a bubble octant and a regular
sextant aboard.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:00:30 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Sunrise question

From Don Jordan (djordan@cyberlynk.com)

    My opinion as a pilot, not a navigator!  The equipment of the day was not
that accurate.  But if it were, it would probably show the position of one
Navigator as being in the cockpit and the other navigator as being in the tail
of the airplane.  Give or take an inch or two.

Don

> >From Blake Herling
>
> Just a quick (probably stupid) question about navigation from someone who
> knows nothing about it, but is fascinated by it & is trying to learn a
> little.(espicially as it relates to A.E. & F. N.)
> Say  there were 2 navigators sitting side by side in the cockpit of a
> plane. Both of them are watching out the front window waiting to shoot the
> sun's upper or lower limbs as it rose to figure their LOP, or position.
> Now lets say one navigator is 6'3" tall & the other is 5'5" in height, how
> is this compensated for? Because the sun is going to rise earlier for the
> taller navigator & later for the shorter, but they're in the same aircraft
> & if every second of time = .25 N.M. how do they put their aircraft after
> calculations at the same position? Would the navigation even be affected
> by this, or is it irrelevant?
> Just wondering.      Blake
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:01:29 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: sunrise question

From Mark Prange

>From Blake Herling
>the sun is going to rise earlier for the
>taller navigator & later for the shorter, but they're in the same aircraft
>& if every second of time = .25 N.M. how do they put their aircraft after
>calculations at the same position? Would the navigation even be affected
>by this, or is it irrelevant?
>      Blake

There is a correction for the angle of dip of the visible horizon below
horizontal.  Observers at different altitudes above MSL use different
corrections.  (A difference in altitude of 1 foot down near 6 feet above Sea
Level can cause a discrepancy of .25 minutes of angle.  But to get a .25
minute difference in dip up around 10000 MSL would take a difference in
altitude of about 50 feet).

A formula for dip in minutes of angle is .97 times the square root of the
feet of altitude.  Whether Noonan used a formula or a table might be known
to TIGHAR researchers.  It would be interesting to learn what techniques
were used at Pan American when he was there.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:40:15 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Return from Suva

From Barbara Norris

Bula to the forum,
I am officially home from my sojourn to Fiji, as a well as a stopover to
visit family and friends in North Carolina.  Sounds like you've kept things
lively while some of us were away.  Good to know you were there.  Support
from TIGHAR members and forum contributors makes our work all the more
rewarding.

I've left the technical, detailed reporting of our work in the capable hands
of "Dr. Tom" as the Fiji Museum staff called him.  The two weeks I spent
working on this aspect of the project was unforgettable.  Fiji's number one
resource, other the beauty of the island, has got to be her people.  I've
never met such warm and helpful people.  We were fortunate enough to have
three student volunteers who never shirked at single task we laid before
them.  (Kris and I were especially grateful for their assistance in the
tunnels at Tamavua!)  The staff at the Fiji Museum is also to be commended
for their efforts.  For all of their involvement, you might have thought
Amelia was a native Fijian.  Mr. Foua Tofiga became a most valuable resource,
recounting his days with the WPHC and memories of Mr. Gallagher, plus making
the Emily connection for us.  I look forward to hearing more of his personal
history, and I'm sure we'll continue to tap into his experience and
recollections in the future.

But by far, the most amazing work was done by Tom King and Kris Tague.  Tom
laid the ground work before my arrival, so I hit the ground running in Suva,
Tom having carefully organized the schedule and made initial contacts through
the Fiji Museum.  We worked diligently and relentlessly, wanting to make the
best possible use of our time in Fiji, and knowing you were all anxious for
word of our progress.  When Tom and I departed, Kris never missed a beat.
I'm still in awe of the pace she kept and the list of her accomplishments.
It was no small task!  As a result, we have accumulated volumes of
information.  Although it will take some time to process (and digest), it
will be invaluable as TIGHAR plans the next move.

So all you forum readers, know that the mission to Fiji was fruitful and done
with the best of care.

Love to Mother (who says, "All good things in time."),
Barbara Norris
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:40:53 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Sunrise Question

From Bob Sherman

>From Blake Herling

>Because the sun is going to rise earlier for the taller navigator....
> or is it irrelevant?  ***YES.  Sextant correction is given in 5000
ft. increments.   A few feet is indeed irrelevant.   RC  941
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:41:56 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Artificial horizon

From Bob Brandenburg


The whole point of the precomputed-LOP procedure was to avoid the need for a
time-consuming sun line observation and calculation at a critical juncture in
the navigation plan, i.e., deciding where the aircraft was relative to the
157/337 line running through Howland Island.  The procedure worked well in
clear-and-visibility-unlimited (CAVU) conditions because the navigator merely
needed to observe the time of sunrise, which was precomputed for Howland
Island's position and adjusted for the navigator's altitude, 10,000 feet in
Noonan's case.  If observed sunrise occurred at the precomputed time, the
navigator knew he was on the LOP.  If it occurred early, he was beyond the
LOP, and if sunrise was late, he hadn't reached the LOP yet.  But the
procedure breaks down if there is a cloud deck because the time of observed
sunrise is then a function of both the navigator's altitude and the height of
the top of the cloud deck.   An error in estimating the cloud deck height
degrades the accuracy of the navigator's estimated distance from the
precomputed LOP.

NR16020 did not have an astrodome, so we have to assume that Noonan's bubble
octant was of the hand-held variety.  Taking any celestial observation with a
hand-held bubble octant is a time-consuming procedure under ideal (read
still-air) conditions, and becomes more difficult if there is turbulence.  The
presence of spikey cumulus clouds during the approach to Howland suggests
vertical air currents which in turn implies turbulence, thus increasing the
time needed to get the bubble level and get an accurate altitude reading.
Noonan could well have taken a sun sight after the sun rose above the cloud
deck, but  the likelihood is high that his resultant LOP was in error by a
significant amount.

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:18:45 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Astro navigation

From Tet Walston

Perhaps some confusion can be eliminated if the art/science of any type of
navigation is simply explained.  The manner in which the position of the
aircraft is determined (other than direct observation, ie "we're flying
over Times Square") is by plotting Position Lines. These are obtained by
measured observations, ie "Times Square bears 090 deg. at 16.00hrs GMT.
The aircraft irrespective of height, was on the LOP at that time.
If a second bearing was taken of another landmark at approx. the same time,
then applying course and ground speed to the two LOPs would give a "Fix"
at the time.

Astro navigation does the same thing, only celestial bodies are observed
instead of terrestial features. The navigator should know the time of the
sighting, the body observed, the resultant angle, the instrument error,
the refractive index of the astrodome or window used for sighting,
the ground speed of the aircraft and its course, and any correction which
is an individual variance (rather as a rifleman sights his target -- not all
are the same) A Bubble sextant provides its own horizon.
Usually six angles would be observed, and the start and finish time noted.
A mean of time/angle would be calculated, then the result corrected for the
above errors, would be applied to the Astronamical Tables.
This would give a Position Line. Preferably a second body at a angle near
as possible to 90 deg. should be observed as near to the time of the first
as possible. A "fix" can then be plotted.

As one person asked, what about the height difference in two navigators?
Their results, using a bubble sextant, should be the same.  However, if a
Marine sextant was used, there would be a difference, but not noticeable.

Regarding Noonan's seat. Ther was a navigator's position in the rear of the
plane, and some messages were passed using a stick and clip.
Noonan must have spent a lot of time up front, and photos show that there
was room to climb over the fuel tanks.

Hope these notes help.

LTM
Tet
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:19:15 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: 39/40 Bushnell Survey

From Tom King

It'll be interesting to see if the 1999 Niku team saw any remnants of the
Bushnell towers.  The last previous time we looked around the Norwich City
vicinity was in '89, and the inspection was very cursory.  There's nothing in
the notes, or my own memory, about evidenceof the towers.

Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 29 Jul 1999 07:57:41 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Preliminary Summary Report on Fiji (Long)

From Tom King

Following is a brief (sic) summary report for the Forum on what had been done
in Fiji as of the time of my departure on July 15, with a few notes on later
development.

I should say at the outset that the Fiji Museum was perfectly wonderful in
its support of the project; we couldn't have gotten a tenth of what we got
done done if it hadn't been for the Museum's making of arrangements,
establishment of contacts, advice, space, volunteers, use of phone and fax
and copier, introductions, etc. etc. TIGHAR owes the Museum a big debt of
gratitude.

Now -- day by day:

6/28:  Kar and I arrived in Nadi, drove to Suva; only 3-4 near-death
experiences in 150 km on the wrong side of the road.  Checked into apartment,
walked around town, noting how many (LOTS) of old government buildings there
are.  Noted news account re. finding of skeleton in the bush in nearby Navua;
Kar thought she should volunteer to help identify.

6/29:  Met with Museum Director Kate Vusoniwailala, Archaeology Director
Tarisi Vundadilo, and other Museum staff.  Went with Tarisi to meet Mr.
Metuisela Moa, Fiji Intelligence Service.  He was very interested,
cooperative, opened the FIS building (formerly the WHPC BOQ) for search at
our convenience (kind of like the CIA opening Langley to searchers from
Fiji).  Noted that the President, His Excellency Ratu Mara, had been a
student of Dr. Hoodless' in the '40s, would likely be very interested.  Asked
him about Mr. Tofiga, whose name had been given us by Peter MacQuarrie.  He
(and Tarisi) knew him, agreed to get in touch with him.  Kar began
examination of all unprovenienced human bones in the Museum's archaeology
collection (We thought at the time that this was the ONLY place in the
Museum's collection where bones were to be had).  No matches noted with
Hoodless measurements.  Planned search on 6/30 of old Central Medical School,
now the Dental Clinic at the Colonial War Memorial Hospital.

6/30:  Started the day with interviews with local media.  Met with Dr. Salesi
Savau, retired from the Fiji Medical School (FSM, formerly Central Med.
School).  In '53-4, as a student assistant, he helped pack up the CMS/FSM for
its move to Tamavua.  He described the move, said he thought the bones, if
they'd been around at the time, would have been absorbed into the Anatomy
collection.  Said there were "never enough bones" for the students.  Said
search of dental clinic will be fruitless because it's been completely
renovated; Hoodless' office is now an X-ray lab, etc.  Acknowledged that
there's an attic, however.  Said there are "Non-Expendable Resource Records"
maintained by the FSM that should be checked.  Gave us a sequence of CMS/FSM
principals after Hoodless.  Kar completed examination of Archaeology Dept.
collection -- no matches.  We both went to the Dental Clinic and searched the
attic throughly.  Lots of junk, including some wooden boxes, but all empty
and none matching a plausible description of the box we're looking for.  No
bones but those of a dead bird.  Tarisi and Kar made contact with the police,
arranged to examine the body found at Navua (good local relations, good
contacts, and will give us an idea of how bones move around in an environment
not entirely unlike that of Niku).

7/1:  In the a.m., we held a well-attended press conference at the Museum.
Four volunteers reported to assist: Faiz Ali, Vuniwai Tupou, Elaitia Vakarau,
and Steven Brown.  Vasemaca Tuisawiau, reporter for Islands Business
International, asked after the Press Conference if I'd heard about the box of
bones found in the Suva Masonic Lodge when it was renovated in '91 to provide
lease space for Fiji TV 1.  Tarisi began to search out a representative of
the Masons.  Arranged for search of Hoodless Residence, now the office of
Vasiti, the Med School student housekeeper, tomorrow.  Kar started examining
all bones in FSM Anatomy Dept. collection.  She, Tarisi, and I, with
volunteers, met with Dr. Avinash at Anatomy Dept., Dr. Cayari, Hospital
Pathologist, examined bones found by police.  Big, tall, probable European
male, gold molars, completely skeletonized.

7/2:  With volunteers, searched Hoodless residence (attic and under-floor).
Nothing but a not-very-old child's umbrella.  Kar completed examining the
Anatomy Dept. collection -- one humerus consistent with Hoodless'
measurements, but from a known articulated skeleton; one skull with
consistent orbital measurements but overall FORDISC says it's not European.
Consulted with Satya Deo, Laboratory Manager, about history of Anatomy Dept.
collection and records thereof.  He and his chief at the time, Dr. Krishnan,
saved the collection from destruction during a change of teaching philosophy
some ten years ago.  Received offer from Greg Kennedy of Otis Elevator to
examine plans and specs for Colonial War Memorial Museum and explore
little-used storage areas known to him.  In late p.m., we visited the site
where the bones had been found at Navua -- stiff stroll through three miles
of swamp and clay ridges.  Turns out the guy was almost certainly a suicide
from California, disappeared from a local motel, leaving a suicide note, back
in April.  Interesting that complete skeletonization, some scattering and
chewing (pigs and dogs) happened in so short a time.  No coconut crabs in the
area, however.

7/3:  Drove to Lautoka and greeted the Niku Team.

7/4:  Aboard Nai'a, consultation with Ric, shakedown trip into interior of
western Vitu Levi.

7/5:  Collected Barb Norris at airport, final discussions with Ric, bid a
fond adeu and headed back to Suva.  Only one near-death experience.  We went
to Museum, found there was a letter from Joseph Browne, Official Secretary to
H.E. President Ratu Mara, denying permission to search Government House.
Called Kennedy; plans and specs not yet available.  Took call from Fiji Daily
Post, which already knew of the Browne letter, asked me about it.  I replied
as diplomatically as possible.

7/6:  Daily Post ran an article about denial of permission.  Considerable
concern over breach of security (interagency letters are supposed to be
confidential).  Composed a lengthy explanatory letter to Mr. Browne, asked
for opportunity to meet.  Telephone interviews with Radio Australia, Reuters,
Fiji Times.  Made contact with Arthur Smith of the Masons; he assured me the
only bones in their building are used in ritual and have been around forever,
but will let us look.  Printed and sent Kar's report on the Navua bones to
the police.  Made plans with Tarisi for her absence starting tomorrow on
conference in Sydney.  Barb and the volunteers searched the overhead of the
gazebo and clock tower in Thurston Park, the only public buildings in the
park (where the Museum now stands) in the 1940s.  Nothing there.

7/7:  Pretty much a day of waiting.  Met with Mr. Browne, delivered letter
and package of background material.  He said he understood about the Post
report, would take the matter up with the President.  Radio interview with
Radio Australia Breakfast Show.  Interview with BBC Scotland.  Interview with
Fiji Times.  Moira Fulmer, Michigan college instructor visiting the Museum,
one-time resident, suggested to Barb that we contact Sir Leonard Usher, the
Queen's rep. during independence negotiations, now retired in Suva.  Received
call from Foua Tofinga in response to Tarisi's letter, arranged to meet at
Museum on 7/9.

7/8: Research in Museum library; Barb concentrating on Hoodless, Tom on Sir
Harry Luke publications.  Met with Mr. Prasad, head of Maintenance in Public
Works Department.  He doesn't know of any boxes of bones but will instruct
maintenance personnel to keep a lookout.  He recommended searching Borron
House and FSM buildings at Tamavua.  At lunch, volunteer Steven Brown
reported that there are WWII tunnels under Tamavua where he played as a kid;
lots of stuff in them.  With volunteers, we searched the FIS buildings (attic
and under-floor).  Nothing.  Barb and volunteers searched the Hoodless
garage; nothing but old tires (tyres, that is) and collapsed cardboard boxes.

7/9:  Met with Foua Tofiga.  Much useful data.  Knew Gallagher, Sir Harry,
Vaskess, the whole cast of characters.  Helped Gallagher load Viti for the
trip on which he died.  Visited Niku with Sir Harry on next trip, during
which Pearl Harbor was bombed.  Wants to go back (we should take him!).  Saw
sextant box on Vaskess' desk.  Identified and described WPHC buildings (now
Public Service Commission buildings).  Barb took extensive notes.  Made
appointments with Sir Leonard and with Arthur Smith for Saturday.  Reviewed
all available issues of The Native Medical Practitioner, journal of the CMS.
Found when Tutu was a student, otherwise nothing.  Got useful paper on the
peregrinations of the Museum collections from Registrar Sagale Baudromo.

7/10:  In the a.m., we interviewed Sir Leonard Usher.  He's lived in Fiji
since 1930, now 93.  Knew all the principals.  Vaskess used to live across
the street, house has been demolished.  Good information on Suva during WWII.
 Recommended contacting Ian Thomson, Sir Harry's Aide-de-Camp (Subsequently
learned that Sir Ian has passed on, but his son is a writer and publisher in
New Zealand, has published a book with his late father on Fiji during the 40s
and 50s).  In the p.m., with Arthur Smith, we visited the Masonic Lodge and
examined bones in box.  Cranium and crossed femurs mounted in wooden box,
shown to initiates during ritual.  Cranium has both malars intact, therefore
doesn't fit Hoodless description.  Also has lost all teeth, considerable
attrition, probably a pretty old person.  Said to have been with the Lodge
since its founding or thereabouts, 120 years ago.

7/11:  Sunday in Suva and the streets are rolled up.  We went to church at
St. Andrews, old missionary church across the street.  Learned that a
sizeable I Kiribati community worships there, but was at U. of So. Pacific
celebrating Kiribati Independence Day.  Relaxed.

7/12:  To Nadi, picked up Kris, returned to Suva.  No near-death experiences.
 Mr. Browne has advised Museum he'll let us inspect cellar and bomb shelter
at Government House.  Waited for meeting, but it didn't happen.  Arranged
with Greg Kennedy to view plans and begin search of hospital tomorrow, and
with FSM to visit tunnels and buildings at Tamavua.

7/13: Conflicts of schedule with Kennedy, Tamavua.  Split up, Tom to
hospital, Barb, Kris, and volunteers to Tamavua.  Turned out there are no
plans and specs for older parts of hospital complex, and couldn't do anything
without permission from Medical Director Mary Schram, which was not
forthcoming.  However, while denying me permission she got on the phone to
Dr. Jona Senilagakali of the Fiji Military Forces, former early FSM student.
Both recollected a small building across from Hoodless residence, now
demolished to make way for FSM HQ (called Hoodless House), where FSM Museum
collection was "repotted" in the 1950s.  Subsequently ran into current
curator of FSM Museum, who said the only bones there are recent, of known
origin.  Meanwhile Barb, Kris, and the volunteers slipped and slid their way
through the Tunnels of Tamavua to no avail; they've been used for
firefighting practice, and are rather a mess. Extensive, but nothing of
interest (except rats).  Discussed the project with Dr. Litudama and Tamavua
faculty and maintenance staff.  Main building there is a typical U.S. WWII
headquarters building, no basement, no attic, solid concrete walls and
floors.  Noting that we're reaching a point of diminishing returns with
searching, conceived the idea of offering a reward.

7/13:  Various meetings in preparation for my departure.  We visited the
National Archives, met with Archivist; Kris will have full access and got
immediately to work.  Introduced her to Prasad, discussed reward, which he
thinks is a good idea.  Further discussions with Foua Tofiga, follow-up
questions.  He'll arrange a meeting with Emily, daughter of Niku village
carpenter.  Summoned to Joseph Browne's office and let into bomb shelter and
cellar, with volunteers.  Lots of junk in both, but no bones, no boxes.
Enough deposition in bomb shelter that one MIGHT find something buried if one
excavated, but it doesn't look very promising.  Both Steven and Mr. Tofiga
say there are more, and more extensive, tunnels, and indeed we've seen some
blocked-up entrances, but one can't get into them without breaking down
cement walls.

7/15:  At Mr. Tofiga's house, we with him and his wife, met with Emily and
her daughter.  She not only described the Kanawa Wood Box, but volunteered
that the bones had come from near the airplane wreck on the reef at Nutiran.
Extensive notes by Barb and Kris, to be transcribed.  Caught the bus to Nadi
at 1600, flew out at 2330.

Since I returned to the U.S., Barb and Kris -- and after last Saturday, Kris
alone -- have continued the search.  The most interesting thing (to me)
that's come up is the result of Mr. Tofiga's suggestion that the Museum
collection be searched.  Serendipity at work again; if I'd been there I would
have said "We've searched the Museum collection" and let it go at that.  If
Tarisi had been there she probably would have said the same, assuming that
the only bones were in the Archaeology Dept. collection, which we HAD
searched.  But neither of us was there, so Kris and Barb went to Kate, the
Director, who sent them to the old ethnographic collection, where there
turned out to be more unprovenienced bones.  Kar will examine them next week.
 According to the ms. I got from Registrar Sagale Buadromo, the collection
was mostly stored in tunnels during WWII, and emerged "badly affected by
mould and damp."  Much was apparently lost.  It's not at all inconceivable
that the box of bones went into the tunnels with the Museum collection, so....

Stay tuned.

LTM (who DOES love a mystery)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:01:28 EDT
From:        
Subject:      precomputing

From bethpage98

>From Bob Brandenburg
>
>
>The whole point of the precomputed-LOP procedure was to avoid the need for
>a time-consuming sun line observation and calculation at a critical juncture
>in the navigation plan, i.e., deciding where the aircraft was relative to the
>157/337 line running through Howland Island.

    Taking any celestial observation with a
>hand-held bubble octant is a time-consuming procedure under ideal (read
>still-air) conditions, and becomes more difficult if there is turbulence.
>Noonan could well have taken a sun sight after the sun rose above the cloud
>deck, but  the likelihood is high that his resultant LOP was in error by a
>significant amount.
>
>Bob


I have no idea of just how much was precomputed for the flight.  However for
the time period during which a navigator is expecting to be trying to track
along a LOP to make landfall, the expected heights (of the Sun in this case)
can be precomputed to save doing it in the plane.  These heights can be
plotted on a graph, or listed at convenient intervals.  Sighting the sun
with a bubble sextant is subject to observational errors, so often readings
are averaged.  Locating and staying on the LOP is done by comparing the
precomputed height whith the sighted height, and subtracting to find the
difference in minutes of angle.  That difference is the mumber of miles to
correct back to the LOP.  The precomputing is indeed time-consuming; the
timed sextant shots are not nearly so, and are the only way to have some
idea, long after sunrise, of how closely the LOP is being tracked.

The tracking technique is not in itself very complicated, but even in good
conditions the accuracy can be plus-or-minus several miles, and that margin
of uncertainty would surely be increased by turbulence, nonstandard
atmospheric refraction at low Sun angles, fatigue, and control inputs by the
pilot during observations.  If the flight went beyond the times of
precomputed heights, then some would have to be computed in flight, probably
when tired and stressed, and maybe while trying to fly a search pattern or
diverting to an alternate.

I have never seen what tables of corrections for parallax or refraction were
available in 1937.  Has this already been looked into by TIGHAR researchers?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:03:28 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Native police?

From JDipi

BARBARA IN SUVA
DO THEY STILL HAVE NATIVE POLICE?  IN DEC 1942 I WAS ON TROOP
TRANSPORTON OUR WAY TO GUADALCANALALL THE TROOPS GOT OFF OF THE SHIP AND HAD
US HIKE AROUND SUVA FOR ABOUT ONE HALF HOUR
WE NOTICED THE NATIVE POLICE WITH WHITE SKIRT AND A CLUB.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:04:54 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Astro navigation

From Don Jordan

THANK GOD FOR GPS!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:13:41 EDT
From:        
Subject:      lighter moments

From Jim Kelly 2085

To Tom King:
Good to hear that there are some lighter moments in the underbrush!
LTM (who put scaevola in the salad and didn't care for it)
Jim Kelly # 2085 (or thereabouts)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:14:52 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: sunrise question

From Rndy Jacobson

Height does affect sunrise times, but 10000 foot elevations changes
sunrise by 8 minutes, so 3 inches should be insignificant.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:16:42 EDT
From:        
Subject:      witch doctor

From William

Tom King:

     Thanks Tom for the insight. It's too bad people like her are in a
position to hinder the research of a great mystery.

William LTM (by the way, I have the original 45, so ting tang walla walla
bing bang to you)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:19:05 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Return from Suva

From tom King

Dave -- Whatever Dr. Schram might have to hide, I doubt if it has anything to
do with the bones.  My impression was simply that she's pretty harassed by
complicated duties, tends to make mountains out of molehills, and is pretty
bloody self-important.  I think we need to remember that what we're after is
not necessarily all that important to other people.

It's certainly possible that, for example, the bones were found in the recent
demolition of part of the hospital, and she directed that they be tossed.
In the event that's the case, we're unlikely to be able to do anything about
it at this point, but I doubt if it's the case anyhow.  In any event, I doubt
very, VERY much that she's secreting the bones someplace.

LTM (who has a certain sympathy for harassed administrators)
Tom
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:20:53 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Noonan's seat

From Mike

Has anyone ever explored the possibility thet since Fred was a licensed pilot
that he may have seen the fatigue Amelia was under and taken over the
controls or at least assisted with the flying in order to give her a break.
Although Amelia could be hardheaded at times, as the situation became more
and more desparate, Fred may have decided to act.

Mike in Florida

********************************

My brain may be on hold here... but I don't think there was the slightest
chance of this.

If he was a pilot, he was certainly *far* less experienced and competent than
AE.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:24:40 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Bushnell survey

From Chris Kennedy

Veryl and I located four square concrete pads
arrayed in a small square formation on the north tip of the island.  The
center
of the pads had, as I recall, metal inserts for guide wires.  I believe Ric
also
saw these later, and told me that these constitute the base supports for one
of
the Bushnell towers.  Take care.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:28:15 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Fijian police

From Barb Norris

To JDipi:

Yes, they currently have Native Fijians who serve as police officers in Suva.
 Their uniforms still consist of a pointed hemmed sulu (wrap around skirt
worn
by men and very acceptable!) and short-sleeved shirt.  But I didn't notice
any clubs.  Tried to talk Dr. Tom into getting a sulu, but he claims to
already own one.

LTM (who owns a few sulus of her own),
Barbara Norris

****************************

The sulu is conventional business attire in Fiji, much the way shorts are in
Bermuda. Casual wear sulus are often bright prints. Business sulus are
conservatively cut, in businessman's grays and dark blues. Much more
practical for that tropical climate than long sticky trousers.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:29:31 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Preliminary report

From Jim Tierney

To Tom King--Nice Report---Obviously you accomplished  a lot during your
visit.....
You werent sitting around drinking fruity drinks and ogling the slender
wahines..

Jim Tierney
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:31:19 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Sunrise observation

From Vern Klein

From Vern  2124

One more long-winded attempt to set the scene on July 2, 1937....

Aren't we going rather far astray here?  The Itasca's Deck Log for July 2nd,
at about 5 AM local time recorded: "Clear skies with detached clouds."
In one of the earliest tranmissions from the Electra, Amelia was understood
to say something about "partly cloudy."  That suggests that conditions were
about the same to the west of Howland -- along their route, that is.

There are no entries in the Deck Log to indicate that conditions changed
significantly over the next few hours.

The Electra had passed over the Gilberts on course and on schedule.
Sunrise at Howland was at about 6:15 AM, local time.  At a somewhat later
time and a few hundred miles to the west, Fred was in the co-pilot's
position watching for the sun.  That's the only place from which he would be
able to observe the sunrise almost directly ahead.  With one eye on the
horizon and the other on his chronometer, he was waiting for the edge of the
sun to peek above the horizon.

Fred already knew that the Sunrise Line of Position would be 157/337 deg.
He knew that even before the flight.  It's just an astronomical fact for
that date -- the direction of the boundry between night and day on the
surface of the earth.  The boundry slants a bit running from slightly
northwest to slightly southeast.  That's stuff we learned in grade school in
Geography class.  We learned about the inclination of the earth's axis of
rotation and why it tends to be hot in summer and cold in winter, in the
northern hemisphere.  Lines of Position were not mentioned but the basis for
all celestial navigation was there.

The exact time the sun peeked above the horizon would tell them that the
day/night boundry was right where they were at that moment.  The tables
would tell them where that was on the surface of the earth and consequently
where they were in the east/west direction.

Depending on the accuracy of the time determination, they knew how far east
of Howland they were.  When they would arrive in the Howland vicinity had to
be estimated on the basis of assumed ground speed.  This is influnced by
wind about which they had no information.  Of course, that also influences
course.  Finding Howland was no lead-pipe cinch!

Fred knew it was not going to be easy.  Everyone knew it was not going to be
easy.  I think there is little doubt that Fred had given this a lot of
thought long before they left Lae.  He knew full well that, if they were
near Howland but could not sight it, there was only one way to go.  He knew
what bearing to fly to get into the Phoenix island group.  If they flew a
heading of about 157 degrees from somewhere near Howland, it would take them
to the Phoenix Islands.  Actually, the Sunrise LoP had nothing to do with
that.  157 degrees, more or less, is just the direction to the Phoenix
Islands from Howland Island.  Any other direction would take them over more
open water than they had fuel enough to cross.

LTM (Who loves to play Devil's Advocate.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:31:57 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: 39/40 Bushnell survey

From Randy Jacobson


Ric and I have had a number of arugments about this...one tower
is quite close to the location of the shoe remnants.  It is entirely
possible that the fire remains as well may be due to that Bushnell
party.

************************

Well, the can label dated the fire we found to th 1970s or later---the bar
code, you know.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:29:21 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Home Again

From Ric

The clock says it's morning, my body says it's dinner time, and there is
still considerable debate about what day this is, but at least I'm home - as
are all but two of the team.  Kris Tague and Kar Burns are still in Fiji
handling some final details, and (as usual) various of peices of expedition
baggage are still in transit somewhere.  I can, however, give everyone a
preliminary overview of the results of this summer's field work.

As always, there's good news and bad news.  First the bad news.

1.  Barring any last minute revelations, no bones were located in Fiji that
were consistent with the bones known to have been sent there in 1941.  Of
course, something could still turn up, but the Fiji Bone Search did not find
the bones it was looking for.  Disappointing, but hardly surprising.  We knew
it was a long shot, but it had to be done.

2.  Operations on Nikumaroro did not result in the discovery of any aircraft
debris suspected of being from the Earhart aircraft.  In fact, the only piece
of aircraft material found was a strip of (est.) .025 aluminum sheet roughly
1 3/4 inches wide by 5 inches long.  It has been trimmed along a line of
tightly-spaced rivet holes on one long edge and has zinc-chromate on one side
and the remnants of white paint on the other. (The Electra had no
zinc-chromated components.) It was found in the remains of a structure found
on the shore of Nutiran and thought to be the "European-style house" referred
to by Tapania Taiki of Funafuti in 1997.

Now for the good news.

3.  In Fiji, valuable contacts and cooperative associations were made which
have already resulted in a far better understanding of the historical context
in which the Earhart disappearance occurred.   New leads were also developed
which may eventually lead us to the sextant box and perhaps even the bones.

4.  On Niku, an intensive and highly informative reconnaissance was carried
out in the areas targeted for future search operations.  As a result of the
information obtained on the ground (and through the new anecdotal sources
described below) the nature and focus of future search operations will be
signicantly different than previously anticipated.

5.  New, totally unexpected, and highy credible anecdotal reports from two
independent primary sources indicate that the early settlers on Nikumaroro in
1939/1940 were well aware of an airplane wreck on the island's reef.  The
location and the nature of the described wreckage dovetail well with other
anecdotal accounts from later time periods.  When combined with the
historical documents and the artifacts found by TIGHAR on previous
expeditions, this new information presents a far more complete picture of
what appears to have happened, explains why we've had such difficulty finding
the proverbial "smoking gun", and will significantly influence our plans for
what comes next.

I realize that everybody is dying for details and I'll soon be able elaborate
on the admittedly very general statements above.  Please bear with me. Some
of the delayed baggage mentioned above contains notes and videotape of some
crucial interviews. I want to be sure that I represent the results of our
work accurately and without "spin."

It's great to be home.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Jul 1999 13:35:50 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Catch-up

From Ric

I've now reviewed the Forum digests for the time I was away and I'd like to
publicly thank Pat for doing such a great job in moderating the postings.
Indeed, at times she showed a great deal of moderation in moderating the
immoderate.  Many Forum Regulars carried the flag admirably and Tom King and
Kris Tague did a great job reporting from Fiji.

I would like to take a moment to comment on a few issues that came up.

*  Mel Gibson is too short to play me in a movie.  Of course, that didn't
keep him from playing Will Wallace in "Braveheart" (who was reputed to be
well over six feet tall) but I'd still prefer Liam Neeson (as Pat suspected)
since neither Wally Cox nor Don Knotts is available.

*  I can't believe that people are still worrying about whether Earhart's
engines were changed as Goerner claimed.  It's like debating whether
Cinderella's coach was really a pumpkin or a cantaloupe.

* The discussions about breaking Japanese codes, while interesting, are way
off topic.  I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the Japanese played any
significant role in the Earhart story - period.

*  The Iridium satelite phone is incredibly compact and easy to use.  If the
company ultimately fails it will be because of the ineptitude of its
management and marketing, not any fault in the technology.  The thing looks
like a largish cell phone with a small extendable antenna.  You simply power
up, enter a PIN number, wait about 10 seconds or less while it acquires a
satelite, then punch in the phone number.  Bingo - you can ring the kitchen
phone while standing on the Nutiran beach.  Absolutely mind-blowing.  There
is a delay, but it's negligible and not a distraction.  The only time we had
any difficulty was when we tried to use it from the deck of the violently
rolling ship on the way out.  We thought that the motion of the ship might be
making it hard for the phone to keep a lock on the satelite, but we later
learned that it was most likely just a matter of the phone figuring out where
in the world it was.  The last time it had been used was in Los Angeles.

*  It surprised me that there was still so much misinformation going around
about the windows on the Electra.  There were two identical cabin windows,
one each side just forward of the cabin door.  These were standard Model 10
windows (Lockheed Part Number 40552).  The cabin door which also had a window
which was unique to Earhart's airplane.  There had been a third, larger
window installed aft on the starboard side prior to the first world flight
attempt but this was skinned over sometime prior to the departure from Miami.
Failure to accurately date various photos of the airplane has led to the
common myth that this window was a removable hatch.  Tet said that the window
apertures on the right side of the airplane were covered over because of the
need to install pipes for the fuel tanks.  That is true except that the
aftmost standard window was retained (as described above).  On the left side
of the airplane, refueling ports for the fuselage tanks were located where
windows were usually installed.

*  On what might be called the north point of Nikumaroro, at the northern end
of Nutiran, four concrete pads survive on the coral rubble at the top of the
storm berm.  These, I strongly suspect, are the mounting base for one of the
80 foot towers erected during the 1939 Bushnell survey. We have photos of
them.

*  I would be interested to know how Bob Brandenburg knows what the weather
conditions were at sunrise as observed from the Electra.  We have the
observed sky conditions at Howland via the Itasca deck log, but at sunrise
the Electra should have been a couple hundred miles or so to the west.  How
do we know what it was like there?

*  Phil Tanner is a perceptive man.  If reports of aircraft wreckage on the
reef at Nikumaroro anytime prior to December 7, 1941 are credible, then we
know what happened to the Earhart/Noonan flight.  It's as simple as that.
Forget all of the other evidence amassed by The Earhart Project in ten years
of research.  If there was an airplane wrecked at Niku prior to WWII, it was
NR16020.  There are no other options.  The question, therefore, becomes the
credibilty of the anecdotal reports that there was such a wreck.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Jul 1999 13:42:08 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Noonan's seat

From Doc Holloway

Even if Fred was far less experienced and competent than Amelia, he could
still have helped with the flying.  When I was ferrying airplanes in the
Navy back in the early sixties I had a non-pilot Chief Petty Officer that
could hand-fly any airplane, in straight and level cruise, better than me
or the autopilot.

LTM,

R.L."Doc" Holloway
************************************************************************

From Vern  2124

Mysticism aside... licensed or not... Anybody could fly the airplane.  Were
it not for the fact of the auto-pilot (assuming in worked), I would have no
doubt that Fred kept them on course and at altitude some of the time.
That's about all that was needed.

************************************************************************
From Ric

We know that Fred held a pilot's license and there is every reason to think
that he was competent to fly the airplane enroute.  Takeoffs and landings
were more likely AE's exclusive province.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Jul 1999 13:56:32 EDT
From:        
Subject:      Re: Home Again

From Shirley

WELCOME HOME - Ric and all.

We look forward anxiously!

Shirley 2299

************************************************************************
From Peter Boor

Good to have you all back safely, Ric. Nice job.
Peter Boor 856C.

***********************************************************************
From Ric

I am totally at a loss to express my admiration and appreciation of the
expedition teams.  The reports from Fiji team should already have given
everyone some feel for the magnitude of the task they took on and the
tremendous amount of ground they covered.  As for the island recon team, no
TIGHAR field team ever worked harder for less immediate gratification than
the Scaevola Whackers of the Niku IIIIR (R for Recon) expedition.  It was a
privilege to serve with them.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Jul 1999 14:03:14 EDT
From:        
Subject:      New forum subscriber

From norgren

Hello!!

How are you? I am new at this forum so I tell you something about me, in case
somebody want to talk to me.

I am a Spanish boy and a lover of aviation. I am 17 yeras old but I am
already a private Pilot. I like very much learn about the history of aviation
and it's difficult to me to find people as much interested in te aviation as
me. I've looking for Amelia Earhart for two years and finally i've found you.

I'm not a especialist of navigation and long trips, but i've been thinking
about the possibilites of her dissapearance.

To be certain the hipotesis of Amelia's landing at Niku., she had to desviate
form her course. In her supposed course she "only" had to fly direct to the
sunrise to find Howland Isl. Why Amelia didn't follow the HDG to the sunrise?
Could Noonan make a mistake so big? Or in case AE had really followed the
course direct the sunrise, why she hadn't reached her destiny? had the sun
difficulted her flight? or had helped her?
Anyway the problem that made AE lost was an unknown eason (No mecanical
problem or big mistake) because if known problems afected the flight she
would told it by the radio.
The only possibiliiesy that I have found are that Amelia had to change her
course in order to avoid a storm, or she made mistaken corrections or
calculations.
It also seem that AE didn't receive radio transmision, in that case she
couldn't receive any weather reports with the wind information. Maybe that
unknown winds altered her course.
Other posibilit is that "Meely" saw land andd had changed her course, but I
don't believe AE had made such mistake.
If I could help in something let me know! I'll pay attention at your new
messages.

LTM (Hope to be useful...)

**************************************************************************
From Ric

Perhaps if you read some of the material availble on the TIGHAR website at
www.tighar.org you will have a better understanding of the facts of the
Earhart case.