Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:13:24 EDT
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      chopped props and wheels down

> I just recently saw an excellent 30 minute documentary on "The Lost
> Squadron" on PBS. It was about the P-38 recovery, and it included a lengthy
> interview with the pilot of the first P-38 to land.

I missed the doc, but this post reminded me of something else.  As I recall, the first P-38 attempted to land wheels down.  It was only after he ended up on his back that the others came in on their bellies.

  LTM,
  Russ

****************************************************************
From Ric

Proof positive that Earhart landed successfully on Niku.  Otherwise the island would be littered with other Electras on their bellies.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:24:28 EDT
From:         Tony Stapleton
Subject:      Re: Fred Noonan

are we talking about paul mantz as this fellow manning? i always thought it was
the famous paul mantz? tony stapleton

***************************************************************
From Ric

Mantz (the famous Paul Mantz) was Earhart's technical adviser.  Harry Manning was a sea captain, private pilot, ham radio operator, personal friend - whom Earhart chose to be her navigator.  Noonan was a last minute addition to the flight to assist with overwater navigation.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:45:04 EDT
From:         Harry Poole
Subject:      Battery life

I worked on radios in the mid 40's, including ones from the 30's. These were the days of less sophisticated circuits and vaccumn tube heaters (filaments) requiring separate power.

In those days some portable radios had three batteries; a A-battery for the filament power, a B-battery for the plate supply; and a C-battery as a bias or grid supply.

In mobile operations, the B-battery supply would often operate on a vibrator based system, sharing a 6 volt rechargable battery with the filament supply.

However, there were also radio's which used dry-cell type batteries only (not able to be recharged).  The B and C batteries of this type would take up less space and less bulk in an airplane, and could easily last for many days, after which they must be replaced.

Showing my ignorance, I have little experience with aircraft radio batteries in that time period, but did have experience with mobile radios.  Those would, I believe, last several days if limiting actual transmissions, since receiving signals requires much less power.

Ric said radio contacts went on for two days [I agree], "far longer than was possible unless the battery was being recharged periodically" [This may not be correct].

and George also asks "Absolutely sure about this?"
 
In my experience, batteries worked for at least a week on occasional transmitter use, and a lot longer if it was just in receive mode.

I would not rule out the possibility that the batteries would last for several days of occasional transmissions, and fairly heavy reception.

I don't know the details of the story Ric mentioned "story involving a single engine IFR flight in a snowstorm with a slipping alternator belt and a stuck mic button"

But two key points would be - was AE's transmitter key stuck? [not likely]. And how long had there been a slipping alternator belt before it was noticed.  Perhaps many hours before the trouble occurred.

Which brings me to my question:

Nauru radio reported transmissions they thought were from AE at 8:55, 9:01, 9:03 and 9:24 (Howland Time), with a carrier with no airplane vibration (no hum).  Can we assume that the estimated arrival was therefore before this time (perhaps near 8:46 when Itasca assumes flight is down)?  Or should we assume it is most likely still be airborne a few more hours until the gas runs out. This would result in a few more hours of potential battery life?

This crash time, if it can be established, would distinguish some of these transmissions as to actually have occuring before the crash, thus not draining the batteries. Perhaps they were last frantic calls just before the crash landing

Ric said "If, in fact, a considerable number of transmissions were made, then the airplane was above water, on its gear and able to operate their starboard engine."

You may be right - perhaps the engine was running. But consider the possibity it might run for days on internal batteries, (without the engine running).  Any thoughts on when in time AE made her crash landing?

LTM

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Let's back up a minute.  Based on what we know about the fuel load aboard the airplane and the power management tables worked out for Earhart by Lockheed's Kelly Johnson, the airplane should have run out of gas sometime shortly after noontime (local time) on July 2nd.  The last call heard by Itasca was at 08:43 a.m.  The calls heard by Nauru were in the evening, not the morning. It seems quite safe to say that NR16020 was not in flight when Nauru heard those calls.

It also seems safe to say that the aircraft made a landing of some sort at some time between 08:43 a.m. and shortly after noon - but we do not at this time know whether it was a ditching at sea, a crash, a crash landing, or a safe landing.

We also have no hard data on how many transmissions were possible using her radio and her batteries before it would be necessary to recharge - but we do know that people who presumably had a better handle on that than we do were of the opinion that recharging would be needed if she were making the transmissions attributed to her.  Until we have better information than they had, I think we have to assume they knew what they were talking about.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:48:28 EDT
From:         George Kastner
Subject:      Radios

Thank you both for this interesting exchange.  I have no radio knowledge at all, but I think that transmission ability is the foundation upon which a lot of TIGHAR's current efforts rest: IF the batteries couldn't provide radio power without frequent recharging, THEN the starboard engine must be running; IF the starboard engine is running, THEN the aircraft must be safely wheels down; IF it is wheels down, THEN the wreck photo is worth investing limited resources on; etc. Just curious, here, and Harry Poole has made me curiouser.  Mini Tanks to All/

George Kastner #0862C (who hopes to be an ''E'' someday)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:00:48 EDT
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Re: Birds

Don Neumann wrote:

> There is one other hazard A.E. faced in making a wheels down landing on the
> reef flat, that being the flocks of seabirds that Lambrecht encountered upon 
> his first low-level flyby at each of the islands he visited, forcing him to 
> make additional circuits of these islands at a higher altitude than his 
> original 50 feet level.

I would think that Amelia would buzz the island several times prior to landing. Why?   To spook the birds for one, and in order to select the best landing site possible.

LTM,
Roger Kelley, #2112
**************************************************************
From Ric

You don't make low passes to spook the birds.  They're not that bright.  They just come right back.

However, it is (and was) standard procedure to "drag the field" before making any  landing on an unknown surface.  This is usually done in landing configuration (gear and flaps down), low and slow so as to get a good look at the ground you're thinking of landing on.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:14:32 EDT
From:         DFarkaly
Subject:      prop specs

I am also intrigued by another apparent inconsistency regarding the engines on AE's aircraft. My 1940 copy of "The airplane and its Engine" lists side by side comparison of P&W Wasp Jr. SB2 (985) and Wasp S3H1-G (1340) actually (1344).  Takeoff ratings are given as 450 HP @ 2300 RPM for the former, and 600HP @ 2250 for the latter.  this leads me to believe that the propellers for these two engines must be significantly different.  If both are two bladed, 9 ft dia. (diameter same possibly for adequate ground clearance on same length landing gear and similar tires), then the propeller blades used on the 1340 should be noticably wider than those used on the 985 (the increased horsepower at similar rpm must result in a larger "absorber') I am so far unconvinced that this 150 bhp difference would be compensated for strictly by resetting the high rpm pitch stops alone.  Do you have the propeller blade P/N's as installed on AE's engines, and if so are there significant enough blade profile differences on Ham Std's prints to effect a positive ID from the wreck photo?

*****************************************************************
From Ric

According to the Bureau of Air Commerce Inspection Report dated May 19, 1937 (the last inspection before the second world flight attempt) NR16020 had Hamilton Standard 6095A-6 props, serial numbers 66570-71 and 65672-73.

Your assumption that the two engines (R985 and R1340) required different props is not correct. Lockheed specs for the 10A and 10E call for the same prop blades and hubs on both aircraft.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:24:57 EDT
From:         Dfarkaly
Subject:      P.S. Propeller

Forgot one additional point about the propellers on the 985 vs. the 1340, text I have says no reduction ratio on the SB2 985, wheras the S3H1-G lists a 0.67 PRR (.67x2250=1507.5 propeller rpm at takeoff).  This leads me to believe that these two conditions cannot be achieved with the same propeller blades a.) 450 hp @ 2300 rpm vs. b.) 600 hp @ 1507.5 rpm, although I have not performed any genuine analysis to this point.  At first glance, it would seem that the difference should be obvious enough to spot in the photo, possibly profile comparison.  PSS, about 8 yrs ago when looking at a friends airplane at a GA field in or near Monterey, CA ( I only remember it was close to Laguna Seca Raceway ), I ran across an aircraft painted entirely red with a for sale sign on it that reminded me of a Lockheed 10, does any forum member live around there?  Might be a source for photos and measurements if it is ( parked in the back and pretty neglected at the time )

****************************************************************
From Ric

Just goes to show that a little bit of documentation is better than a whole bunch of speculation.  Both engines used the same prop.

I don't know of any red Lockheed 10, but then, an airplane that reminds you of a Lockheed 10 is not necessarily a Lockheed 10.  Sure it wasn't a Twin Beech?

We've taken detailed measurements and even rivet pattern rubbings of at least a half dozen of the 13 surviving Lockheed 10s.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:37:56 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Lost Squadron

Just viewed a Public Broadcasting program on our local PBS affiliate, which documented the recovery of a P-38 Lockeed "Lightning", which had been buried under 200 feet of snow & ice on the Greenland ice cap, since the early days of WWII. The plane recovered was one of six P-38s which were being ferried to Britian via the Greenland/Iceland route, along with several B-17s, all of which became lost in heavy cloud cover over the North Atlantic & when attempting to return to a U.S. base in Greenland, ran out of fuel & made forced landings on the ice cap.

Of particular interest to TIGHAR fans is the fact that the radio operator on one of the B-17s was able to run one of the starboard engines with an undamaged prop, so he was could send S.O.S. signals which were eventually heard by U.S. forces on Greenland, who dropped supplies & dog sleds, in order to permit the crews involved to walk across the Cap to open sea & the Coast Guard cutter that rescued them.

Very fascinating program, unfortunately when the plane was finally removed from the ice cap, the recovery team tried to take it apart, thus causing substantial damage which has resulted in having to rebuild the entire aircraft from "scratch".

When they are finished, they plan to fly the plane back over the same original route to Britian.

Don Neumann
****************************************************************
From Ric

Snort!  The real problem with the Greenland P-38 recovery was that it was, from the beginning, conducted by people who didn't have a clue about the ethics of historic preservation.  The intention was always to salvage the aircraft and rebuild it as an airworthy replica of itself to be flown for the entertainment of airshow crowds.  There was never any recognition that they had uncovered a virtual time capsule which could have been preserved as the only surviving example of a 1942 P-38.  The story of "Glacier Girl" (a totally bogus name invented for the replica) is a classic illustration of how aviation historic properties are being butchered in the name of "restoration."

But that's another topic.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:43:21 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: bottle cap

Didn't Gallagher die from a "stomach" ailment?  Wouldn't this, then be a possible remnant of his medication?  Or was the Warner product purely an American item that Gallagher would have been unlikely to have purchased?

LTM,
Blue Skies,
Dave Bush

******************************************************************
From Ric

Interesting thought.  Warner was indeed an American company but we don't know that they didn't export their products.  We do know that Gallagher had a number of medications on Gardner (see MacPherson's report).  If the bottle cap is Gallagher's it lends credibility to the notion that the Aukaraime site may be where the bones were found.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:13:01 EDT
From:         R. Johnson
Subject:      Silence?

How is it possible that AE was not heard from after 8:43 local time. If TIGHAR is correct in assuming approxiamately 4 hours of fuel remaing after last transmission, and with a signal strength of 5 {according to Itasca}at time of last transmission, then we must consider why she was never heard again. I have not seen this issue addressed in this forum, although I am relatively new to this forum and it may have previously been discussed. I can't buy into the argument that both Itasca and AE were trying to contact each other simultaneously for the next four hours and were merely blocking each others transmissions. This was mentioned by TIGHAR as occuring prior to the last transmission {8:43} on occasion. To be constantly blocked out by sending while other is sending or vice versa for 4 more hours seems a remote possibility. Can anyone offer a convincing argument for the radio silence? Did AE just choose to quit trying the radio? Did Itasca choose to quit listening? Did the radio go out? Did they crash soon after 8:43 and this explains the silence? Could a radio signal just north of Niku be heard by the Itasca at Howland?

R. Johnson
****************************************************************
From Ric

Obviously, something must have changed after the 08:43 transmission.  As you say, up until then Itasca was hearing her just fine.  Itasca did not stop listening and while their continued attempts to contact her may have blocked some tranmissions, it's not reasonable to see that as the entire problem. Did Earhart stop transmitting?  That is certainly one possibility and there are many who feel strongly that her sudden silence is strong evidence that she hit the water shortly after 08:43.

But let's look at what she said in that final tranmission:

KHAQQ TO ITASCA.  WE ARE ON THE LINE 157 337.  WILL REPEAT MESSAGE.  WE WILL REPEAT THIS ON 6210 KILOCYCLES.  WAIT.

Then a few minutes later the radio operator was surprised by another transmission which he recorded as:

WE ARE RUNNING ON NORTH AND SOUTH LINE. (usually represented in Earhart mythology as "We are running North and South.")

Note that Earhart says that she is going to change her transmitting frequency.  She has had no luck on 3105 kcs so she'll switch over to 6210 kcs.  Itasca has never heard her on that frequency.  Could the change of frequencies be the reason that Itasca stops hearing her?  A study of the known characterisitics of 6210 shows that if Earhart was between 40 and 120 nm from Itasca it is quite possible that her transmissions could not be heard.

This seems like the most likely explanation for the silence.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:22:21 EDT
From:         Chuck Jackson
Subject:      WRECK PHOTO PROP

Your assumption that the diameter of the port prop in wreck photo is 9 ft. may be faulty.  The Type Certificate for the L10E (I'll send you a copy) specifies:

hubs 12D40, blades 6101A-12 to -14, diameter 9' 1"max to 8' 10 5/8"min.

Howard Brakens,Mgr, oprns,U.S. Propeller (SCK) says that prop can be trimmed as short as 101(with FAA OK) for experimental a/c.  Shown a photo of AE's 10E "squatting" sadly on it's belly after the failed takeoff in Hawaii, Brakens pronounced the props unrepairable(even with today's technologies).  So, who knows what prop blades Lockheed "grabbed off the shelf" to rush the rebuilt 10E out the door at Burbank?  I don't!  "back to the drawing board, huh?"

****************************************************************
From Ric

No Chuck.  The only assumption I'm making about the props on the repaired Electra is that the official paperwork describing the replaced propellers is correct.  They were 6095A-6 blades, serial numbers 66570-71 and 65672-73. Hamilton Standard confirms that this would result in a prop disc diameter of precisely 9 feet.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:24:18 EDT
From:         Tony
Subject:      Re: Fred Noonan

thankyou, now i've learned something and feel stupid.  tony

**************************************************************
From Ric

Good.  That makes you just like the rest of us.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:35:00 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Earhartian?

Earhartian?

Is that pronounced "Air-har-tee-an" or "Air-harsh-ee-an"? Curious people need to know.

LTM, a former "phonician"
Dennis McGee #0149CE

*****************************************************************
From Ric

That's Air-harsh-ee-an, an adjective invented by Tom King used to describe anything pertaining to Amelia Earhart.

Not to be confused with the noun "Ameliana." (invented by me)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:41:41 EDT
From:         Ross Schlichting
Subject:      Re: Lost Squadron

AMEN Brother!  I watched it too, and thought the EXACT same thing.  Why rebuild a preserved P-38 from scratch?  This does not do the historic community much good.  It might as well be a new Beechcraft.

Ross Schlichting

****************************************************************
From Ric

Like most things, it's about money.  An airworthy P-38 is worth far more than a preserved historic property to a culture that values experience over knowledge.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:51:05 EDT 
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Re: chopped props and wheels down

> As I recall, the first P-38 attempted to land wheels down.  It was only
> after he ended up on his back that the others came in on their bellies.
> ****************************************************************
> From Ric
>
> Proof positive that Earhart landed successfully on Niku.  Otherwise the
> island would be littered with other Electras on their bellies.

All right, wise guy.  The point is that we have another instance from roughly the same time period where a pilot, faced with landing in unfamiliar terrain, first chose to try and save the airplane by landing wheels down - and he didn't even own it!

 LTM,
 Russ
****************************************************************
From Ric

Actually a good point.  Those P-38s were in one of the first batches being ferried to England and there was a strong feeling that these were rare and valuable assets.  Later in the war there was much more a feeling of there-are-plenty-more-where-this-came-from.  In my own experience, I can remember being shocked when flying with USAF FACs in Cessna O-2s (Oscar Deuce or Suck 'n Blow) at the willingness of the pilots to routinely and needlessly abuse the aircraft.  Same thing with trucks, jeeps, radios, etc.  Military mind set.

When speculating about what Earhart might do, I think that it's important to remember that she was a private aircraft owner flying an uninsured airplane upon which she still owed money for repairs.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:05:01 EDT
From:         William
Subject:      Re: Lost Squadron

>An airworthy P-38 is worth far more than a preserved historic property to a
>culture that values experience over knowledge.

Yes. One could also say "thrills" over knowledge.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

The argument, of course, is that there is "educational" value in seeing/hearing/smelling or even flying an operational example rather than studying a museum exhibit.  And that is perfectly true. What is important is to not confuse the two.

When people fool themselves into thinking that reconstruction is preservation, irreplaceable properties are destroyed.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:11:12 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Clancy/Gallagher Advisory

Phil Tanner has spoken with Deirdre Clancy by telephone.  The following is a summary of his report.  It seems we're off again in search of another of the Clancy (Harling) women!  I believe the weekend of June 5 = 6 will be when Phil visits the in-laws north of Worcester.

*************************************************

Just off the phone, after a lengthy chat. She has three photographs of Gerald Gallagher, at least one apparently taken in the Pacific - this shows him and a dog, a terrier - but nothing else that relates to him, no diary, paperwork or artefacts. I said we would still be interested in copies of the photos and said I would pay if she wouldn't mind having copies made from the prints, which she will ask her husband if he wouldn't mind getting done - she is very busy currently on a filming project and away from home during the week, working long hours.

She does, however, know of a branch of the family with which she has lost touch in recent years which might be able to shed further light. I'll backtrack a little on the family history side of it. I wonder if maybe Simon's researcher came up with the wrong Clancys when s/he reported Edith's two sisters as called Elizabeth Rachel and Mary A. and the oddity of Edith apparently misrepresenting her age when she married - i.e. if Edith's age at marriage was as she gave it and she was a different individual.

Deirdre Clancy is the adopted daughter of Julie Clancy of Clanmere, unmarried sister of Edith. (She was adopted when Julie was around 50.) A brother of the Clancy sisters was killed in the first world war, in which Julie served as a nurse. She subsequently set up the nursing home Clanmere in Malvern and the name is indeed derived from her own - her partner (I assume in the business sense, I didn't pry) was called Meredith. Gallagher's grandmother was cared for there before her death.

The other sister, Louise - must be the "Louisa" who witnessed Gallagher's parents' wedding - married someone whose name Deirdre doesn't know, but she does know Louise's daughter married someone with the surname Harling who lived in Worcester, which is about 15 miles north of Malvern. My in-laws live about 10 miles further north again and I'm visiting them the week after next, so I'll check their local phone directory for Harlings.

Deirdre was last in touch with this couple's daughter, unmarried name Susan Harling, some years ago when she lived in Fleet, Hampshire (about 20 miles from me in Reading). She and her husband will see if they can track down her current address or anything else which might point in the direction of other family members. I have given her my home address and phone number and my email address.

Her husband is on the Net, but if I understood her correctly has temporary  technical problems. I gave her the address of the TIGHAR site. My overall impression was that she was willing to help and intrigued, but too busy to with other things to become engrossed. I stressed that the project is all about paying due respect to history and told her about the plan to replace the plaque on Gallagher's grave, which I think pleased her.

Incidentally, Deirdre recalls reading something about the discovery of bones which might be Earhart's in the National Enquirer (!) but didn't make the connection with Gallagher at the time, she thinks because the name of the island had changed.

One completely Earhart-unrelated coincidence to close - Deirdre's daughter used to attend a very upper-crust public school here in Reading in whose pool my daughter's swimming club trains.

....Continuing with a more recent communication from Phil....

I'm sure she didn't have any personal recollection of Gallagher and couldn't have, but it seemed she did know about him before the story appeared in the Gazette, though obviously not the Earhart link. If Edith Clancy was indeed 25 when she married in 1911, she was born 1885-6. The next sister, Louise/a, must have been at least 21 to be a witness at the wedding, so born not later than 1890. I believe Deirdre said her adoptive mother was much the youngest, so let's say born in the last few years of the century. She then adopted Deirdre aged around 50 - mid to late 1940s. It would be very unusual for a woman to be working past 60 and Deirdre works, so was presumably also born in the 40s and adopted as a baby. And Gallagher left for the Pacific in 1937.

I mentioned the mystery of the letter to Gallagher and she asked who wrote it, but the name Ruby Margetts didn't mean anything. I have had an email from Deirdre's husband saying they were impressed by the TIGHAR web site and have forwarded his address to Ric, so with luck they will establish an online contact and our profile of The Man Who Found Earhart (But No-One Believed Him) will expand.

****************************************************************
From Ric

I've received from Deirdre's husband a really wonderful portrait photo of young Gerald which we'll put up on the website soon.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:25:32 EDT
From:         Angelo
Subject:      Re: Silence?

>But let's look at what she said in that final transmission:
>
>KHAQQ TO ITASCA.  WE ARE ON THE LINE 157 337.  WILL REPEAT MESSAGE.  WE WILL
>REPEAT THIS ON 6210 KILOCYCLES.  WAIT.
>
>Then a few minutes later the radio operator was surprised by another
>transmission which he recorded as:
>
>WE ARE RUNNING ON NORTH AND SOUTH LINE. (usually represented in Earhart
>mythology as "We are running North and South.")

That time sequence is new to me. Up to now I thought that the last local (to Itasca) transmission ended with ..ON 6210 KILOCYCLES..."

>Note that Earhart says that she is going to change her transmitting
>frequency.  She has had no luck on 3105 kcs so she'll switch over to 6210

That agrees with my reading of the facts.

>kcs.  Itasca has never heard her on that frequency.  Could the change of

That agress with my reading of the facts.

>frequencies be the reason that Itasca stops hearing her?  A study of the
>known characteristics of 6210 shows that if Earhart was between 40 and 120
>nm from Itasca it is quite possible that her transmissions could not be heard
>by the Itasca since the skip distance for 6210 KC waves is much
>different from (longer than) the skip distance for the 3105 KC waves.

>This seems like the most likely explanation for the silence.

Yes.

Ang.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:37:00 EDT
From:         Angelo
Subject:      Re: Birds

>Niku is very different.  You'll see an occasional Booby cruising the reef
>flat and at a few locations there are flocks of Frigates riding the thermals,

Hey! That strikes a nerve. If there are thermals and birds, wouldn't that sight catch a pilot's eye and attact him/her to that site?

Ang.

***************************************************************
From Ric

You're gonna see the island long before you see the Frigates.  The Frigates circle where the thermals are.  I've most often seen them high over the northern part of the atoll about 9 or 10 o'clock in the morning.  They're waiting for the Boobies to come home from fishing expeditions.  They then dive on the Boobies and scare them into puking their catch, which the Frigates intercept in mid-air.  Charming.

A gaggle of circling Frigates with wingspans of up to six feet is the sort of thing you'd think a pilot might want to avoid.  A bird strike in an airplane is no joke.  Energy equals mass times the velocity squared - in other words - a couple of pounds of feathers can tear the hell out of airplane.  I once watched half a seagull (he came through the prop) put a whopping big dent in the wingroot of my Beech Debonair.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:38:57 EDT
From:         Christian Duretete
Subject:      Wreck Photo

Just thinking about a small detail: is there anything in the picture, like markings or the pitch of the prop, which tells us that the negative was not upside down, when the Wreck print was made?

That would make the left engine into a starboard one...

Although, as Ric explained, we can still have a port engine in the photo, and still easily tie together the different pieces of evidence we have.

Just curious.

Christian D.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Yes.  The prop pitch confirms that the neg has not been reversed.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:54:26 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Stupidity vs ignorance

Tony wrote:

>thankyou, now i've learned something and
>feel stupid.  tony
>
>**************************************************************
>From Ric
>
>Good.  That makes you just like the rest of us.

>**************************************************************

A wise man I worked with once upon a time had a favorite saying:

"Ignorance can be fixed; stupid is forever".

We are all here ignorant about various aspects of the subject, but our ignorance is diminishing with each passing e-mail message [and each trip to Niku]. I doubt that anyone here is genuinely stupid.

Tom

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Fortunately, feeling stupid and being stupid are not the same thing.

There's another great saying:

"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." - Heinrich Schiller

Stupid is out there.  Lots of it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:47:59 EDT
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      Re Silence

R. Johnson wrote:

>How is it possible that AE was not heard from after 8:43 local time.....
>Can anyone offer a convincing argument for the radio silence? Did AE
>just choose to quit trying the radio? Did Itasca choose to quit
>listening? Did the radio go out? Did they crash soon after 8:43 and this
>explains the silence?

A few Forum members have asked that same question before. Capt. Safford  covers this question in his manuscript, that I have recently acquired.

Under the heading, ESTIMATING THE POINT OF SPLASH-DOWN page 4-15. Safford makes the argument under item 10 page 4-16. " Tenth, we know from Comdr. Thompson's official report that AE's distress signals on 6210 KC, sent after she had crashed, were heard by Nauru but not by the Itasca , although the cutter was listening on that frequency. "

Capt. Safford is referring to VKT/Radio Nauru. The radio station was located on the island of Nauru. There were two, possibly three transmissions that Nauru heard at 08:31, 08:43, 08:54 GMT on 48.31 meters ( 6210 kc )  on July 2, 1937. To paraphrase, the station reported, "speech not intelligible, no hum of plane in background, but voice similar that emitted from plane in flight last night between 4:30 and 9:30 PM. ".

These transmissions were not positively identified as coming from AE, but it is Capt.Safford's belief that they did. He converted the times to HST ( Howland Standard Time ) and made a chronology on page 5-32.

0844-46 (HST) last transmission Itasca heard.

EARHART BROADCASTS TO ITASCA ON 6210 KC.

0901 (HST)   Unheard by Itasca. Heard by Radio Nauru (VKT), unintelligible.

0912 (HST)   ( From Itasca's log : "Landing party returned to the vessel from Howland Island".)

0913 (HST)  Unheard by Itasca; heard by VKT- but unintelligible.

0924 (HST)  Unheard by Itasca ; heard by VKT- but unintelligible.

"Radio Nauru ( VKT ) continued to guard 6210 KC but heard nothing more."

Capt. Safford explains why the Itasca did not hear the transmissions was because of the skip characteristics of 6210 Kc at that time of day. He goes on to say that because of these skip characteristics of high frequencies ( 3105 and 6210 )  the signal strength recorded by the Itasca can be misleading in trying to determine how close AE/FN was to Howland.

Capt. Safford's estimated point of splash down was 325 nautical miles west of Howland, Lat. 1 degree north, Long. 178 degrees west.

In Capt. Safford's narrative on page 6-10 he makes a curious statement about AE and FN that I find odd, and I don't know from what bases he makes the statement.

"If a squadron of Navy patrol planes could have taken-off from Howland as soon as AE's  ' RUNNING OUT OF GAS ' signal had been received, the ELECTRA would have been sighted while still afloat , Miss Earhart rescued alive, and Capt. Noonan's body at least recovered."

Daryll

******************************************************************
From Ric

Safford is right about the skip characteristics of 6210 but he had his time zone conversions screwed up.

The original source for the Nauru receptions was a telegram received by the U.S. State Dept. on July 3, 1937 which said:

"At 6.31, 6.43, and 6.54 PM Sydney time today (July 2nd) on 48.31 meters fairly strong  signals speech not intelligible no hum of plane in background but voice similar to that emitted from plane in flight last night between 4.30 and 9.30 PM...."

Sydney Time was Greenwich plus 10 hours so 18:31 Sydney Time on July 2nd was 04:31 July 3rd GMT.  What you're calling Howland Standard Time (i.e. local time as used by Itasca at Howland) was Greenwich minus 11.5 hours, so when Nauru heard the first transmission it was 17:01 local time aboard Itasca. The other transmissions came at 17:13 and 17:24.  It looks like somebody is transmitting every quarter hour but is jumping the gun a bit.

These transmissions are NOT occurring in the morning while Earhart is in flight, as Safford claims.  They are being heard in the evening a good five hours after Earhart must be down somewhere.  It is still daylight and she is transmitting (if the transmissions are from her) on her "daytime" frequency of 6210 kcs.

I agree that Safford's estimated "splash down" point and his comment about rescue possibilities appear completely unfounded.  And Earhart never said she was "running out of gas."

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:52:28 EDT
From:         Dave Porter
Subject:      wheels down landing & stuff

I think you and Dick are on the right track with the wheels down landing theory.  Evidence favoring: the wheels down wreck photo,  the need to run the engine for battery recharge/radio use, (much less complicated--tip of the hat to Mr. Ockham--than sawing off/removing the prop, digging a hole for the prop, or (horrors!) removing the engine/batteries/radio and running it elsewhere) and the possibility of continuing the flight.  I gave a little thought to that last item, and as much as I hate the idea of assuming motivations of people I don't know, here goes...  To us, AE represents the #2 mystery of the 20th century, (I read that paper of yours Ric) but to AE & FN the stop on Gardner was, at first, only a minor delay.  They could, as you've noted that they did previously, get located, in this case by others, get some fuel, and continue the flight.  I think a very strong motivation for this could have existed.  She cracked up the plane early into the first world flight attempt a year earlier.  This time she made it almost all the way.  After Howland, she'd only have to find Honolulu, and then the North American continent, and Oakland, (maybe first, maybe not) and then be a hero for life, role model for all, etc.  Point is, she wanted to finish the flight, and could have if events early in the search had gone even a little bit differently, and, above pure, unabridged speculation nonwithstanding, if she had made a wheels down landing.

Count me in for an advance purchase of the Niku 4 video also.

The Voyage of Discovery stuff looks FABULOUS.  Great big tip of the hat to Barb, Tom, Randy, and all involved.  Any thoughts on developing an adult version of the curriculum?  I know plenty of "older" folks, self included, who could benefit from a course in How To Think.

LTM, Dave Porter, 2288

***************************************************************
From Ric

Interesting thought.  There might be some major corporations who would see a course in logical problem-solving to be a benefit for key employees.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:01:47 EDT
From:         B. Conrad
Subject:      Re: Silence?

With all these battery issues with the Electra I've decided to get involved again. Please forgive me for showing so much of an interest here. Anyway, number one...has anyone to this date done any research as an reenactment of the chain of events...such as putting an aircraft in the air with the same type of radio on the same type of frequency in the same area...using the same coordinates and weather inclements? Also, if you think about it...when your driving along down a highway and you have your radio on...at one time or another you occasionally run into static on the radio caused by static electricity interruptions. Same as if you had a walkie...talkie! Also, let's just say that you have the mic...to close to part of the Electra at the time of transmission. What I'm saying is that sometimes when you drag a radio, a cb, walkie talkie, or any time of communicative device close to metal it has a tendency of being drowned out with interference and static. Also, the radio that she was using at the time of her flight...did it have a squelching device on it. If this isn't so...then this is possible that she was being drowned out alot by interferrence. Also, sometimes...weather...whether it's good or bad will effect the way radios work. As from what I've learned from you and Ric and checking with several sources at my job at the battery plant.  There is no reason why those batteries shouldn't have worked days after the crash and continued on working. Question...is it possible that she never heard anyone after she reached the ground? Also, if the Electra did crash...just say belly landing, O.K! What kind of a jolt is that radio capable of taking? Was the radio durable enough to keep from screwing up after a sudden jolt of hitting land really hard? Like others I'm not real big on radio analogy; but I've dropped enough cameras and radios and electrical communicative devices to know, that if something is dropped really hard...it goes haywire. Also, what kind of an antenna was she using. Or did they have those on radios back then? If so...was it damaged when it landed? Anyway, these are some critical areas where your team will find the greatest value and information from. It's not so much if you find the plane...but going on key areas of information will let you know exactly what happened! As far as the plane being imploded from the waves several days after the landing...well, let's just say that I don't buy that? Anyway, if this is so, then your team should have found some pieces of wreckage strewn across that beach somewhere with metal detectors? Also, how much sand can be placed in a square foot in less than a few seconds. As far as not seeing any wreckage from an aircraft...I don't buy that either. Someone had to see something, unless she did land in the water and the tides pulled the plane back down into the reef! Now, that I can buy or take to the bank. Question has anyone gone this far to check the reef out? Well, talk to you later!

****************************************************************
From Ric

(sigh)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:15:43 EDT
From:         Christian
Subject:      Battery life, radios ...

I read a bit at the forum and now a question turns up to me.

Following the line: wheels down landing, transmitting on the batteries, recharging the batteries on the generator at the starboard engine, engine above ground to run with the unbent prop as seen on the picture, I have to ask how the engine was started?

It has shurely not been running all the time between the landing and the end of transmissions.

If started like a car of today, the starter would have to live on the batteries as well. How long would the engine have to run to recharge the batterie for both purposes.

What about temperature problems, the engine might face? On recharging the batteries, the engine is shurely not running at max. RPM. How much cooling effect is produced by the prop, when running at low RPM?

At Greenland they might have been able to ignore this, thanks to the climate but as I understand it differs from Niku..

What is known about the weather at the region at touch down time at all?

Excuse my selection of words and phrases, english is not my mother language.

By the way, PLEASE avoid abbreviations. To understand some of the terms used, is sometimes quite difficult, but if someone throws in some abbr. I running circles...

Watch your habits...
LTM, (that one I understood)
Christian

****************************************************************
From Ric

I'll try to watch my habits.  Your English is far besser als meiner Deutsch.

Starting an engine on Nikumaroro should be no different than starting an engine in any other hot climate.  Having flown the aircraft for several weeks in hot climates, Earhart should have been adept at the procedure. Overheating would be a concern and running the engine in the heat of the day would probably be inadvisable.

A fairly low RPM should be sufficient to recharge the battery (something like 800 rpm?).  I really don't have a feel for how long you'd need to run the engine and what kind of cooling problem this would present.  Maybe someone who has direct experience with R1340s could provide an opinion.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:16:04 EDT
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Silence?

From Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194:

The receiver(s) on NR16020 had no squelch circuit of any kind.

As for battery life: This is not modern, low-drain solid state gear.  The transmitter drew approximately 50 amps at 14 volts, when on the air.  The receiver drew about another 4 amps.  For the sake of rounding off, let's call it a total of 55 amps.  That will suck the life out of a battery real quick.

73

Mike E.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:32:54 EDT
From:         Lars
Subject:      Wreck photo and other Lockheed 10

Just curious..

How many Lockheed 10's has an unknown fate ?

In other words, is there a list of how and where all ended up?  Not that I want to discredit the wreck photo, but there where owners that operated in tropical places even if not in the Pacific. (Spain with its african colonies, BOAC) I don't know if they operated their Lockheeds in tropical climate, but it would be nice to confirme that no other Lockheed 10 ended its career in tropical climate and know what became of the "other ones...."

Best wishes
Lars "not yet qualified to say LTM?" Larsson

****************************************************************
From Ric

To make a long story short:
If the Wreck Photo is a Lockheed 10 it is a "big engined" Lockheed 10, i.e. either a "C" or an "E".  All of the Cs and Es are accounted for but 9.  Some of them served with Central American carriers so the possibility exists that one of the unaccounted-for airplanes was wrecked in a tropical setting.  We do know of one E that fits that description.  Earhart's.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:22:27 EDT
From:         Mark Donnell
Subject:      Re: Silence

Been reading this forum for over a year now but this is the first time I've burst into print.  I think some gremlins have crept into your calculations of time zones re the radio transmissions received at Nauru.  I'm a New Zealander, currently working and living in Australia.  Aussies & Kiwi's are quite used to doing the time zone calculations - too much good sport happens in Europe so we've got to know at what time of the night we need to get up to watch it!

If the first signal was received in Nauru at 18:31 Sydney time on July 2 then that translates to 08:31 GMT on July 2.  If Howland is a further 11.5 hours behind GMT then that's 21:01 on July 1 in Howland.  As a check, Sydney is two hours from the dateline and Howland is a further half an hour to the east of the dateline.  So add 2.5 hours to the time in Sydney and drop back one day - 18:31 Sydney time on July 2 becomes 21:01 on July 1 in Howland.

Mark

******************************************************************
From Ric

Damn!  I guess I'm no better than Safford.

Earhart being heard at 21:01 Howland time on July 1st doesn't make any sense so it must be that Nauru heard her at 18:31 Sydney time on July 3rd - just as the original message says - making it 21:01 Howland time on July 2nd. The point is the same. If what Nauru heard was Earhart, she was on the ground somewhere.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:23:56 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Stupidity vs ignorance

My personal favorite is:

There is never a stupid question, only a stupid answer.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:25:34 EDT
From:         Tony
Subject:      Re: Stupidity vs ignorance

thanks for the encouragement !
good tail winds to all, tony
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:40:35 EDT
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Charging system

I read your estimate of engine RPM to charge a battery with a generator.  Is your estimate of 800 RPM a guess or from experience?

The reason I ask is because I used to own a 1960 Cessna 210 with a generator, not an alternator.  I remember I had a lot of trouble with the charging system, especially if flying at night.  Several times while taxing to the terminal after landing, the battery would get very low on power.  Taxi lights and all.  That engine was always a hard thing to start when hot.  More than once I needed a jump start after about 10 blades due to low battery.

What I remember the most is that after engine start, I needed about 1,300 RPM just to get the generator light to go out.  Also, even with the cowl flaps full open I had to watch the temperature close if I tried to recharge on the ground.  This wasn't a problem after I installed an  alternator.

I would think the Electra would need a bit more than 800 RPM to have the generator kick in.  I think the temperature would also be a big problem if the engine was run at that RPM for any length of time during the day.  But, by that time she probably figured the plane was a write off way. Night time would be better to use the radio and try to recharge.

Of the post loss radio signals attributed to Earhart, how many were received at night (Niku time)?

*****************************************************************
From Ric

The 800 RPM was a pure guess based upon my limited experience with radials. They tend to develop more horsepower at lower RPM than opposed engines.

Virtually all of the credible post-loss radio signals were received during hours of darkness, Niku time.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:42:56 EDT
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      Charging

Have no experience with that particular model & engine.  However R-engines immediately above and below AE's idled at 900 to 1,000 rpm.  Although most alterrnators (ac) will put out full voltage at idle, most generators (dc) will not. It usually takes 1200 rpm or a tad more.  Not a problem for 15 min. if downwind & for hours with a decent breeze. Ergo your scenario of post (landing) msgs. well within the realm of possibility.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:49:35 EDT
From:         Don
Subject:      Wreck Photo

I am very skeptical about this wreck photo.  You have a picture of this aircraft which had obviously crashed before it ended up in it's current position with the main spar of the wing  sitting on top of the fuselage in a very peculiar position with one of the engines attached.  I can not visualize mother nature pitching this aircraft through the brush into this field and resting the wing spar on top of the fuselage. It had to be moved there by some mechanical means.  Even during intense surf, the prop of the remaining engine would have dug in somewhere as parts of fuselage tried to float with the surf.  And the prop shown in the picture is in pretty good condition, which does not appear to be bent at all.  The bulk of this would not float under any conditions.  But it does not discount the possibility that this might be the Earhart Electra or at least part of it.  Something that does discount it right off the bat is that the front portion of the engine cowling which remains is not the same construction of the cowling which is pictured on Earhart's Electra.  Maybe the wreck photo is actually a picture which was taken during or most likely some period after a cleanup/salvage operation of some sort where there is actually two aircraft seen here and the spar and engine do not belong to the fuselage underneath. The fuselage does have some interesting aspects to it such as the design of the center post and known aircraft which you have mention previously that might have the same design, and the Electra being one of them.  But the fairing still attached to the engine of the wreck photo which is very clearly shown leads me to believe that if that engine and spar belongs to the fuselage underneath then it is not the Electra. Whatever the case, it is still interesting to look.  Do you have any information on it's orgin?

****************************************************************
From Ric

It's actually a Rohrshach inkblot test.  Everybody sees something different based, primarily, on their toilet training.

You'll find several articles about the Wreck Photo and its alleged origins on the TIGHAR website (www.tighar.org)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:03:28 EDT
From:         Angelo
Subject:      Time Zone headaches

(About time-of-day establishment difficulties)

>The original source for the Nauru receptions was a telegram received by the
>U.S. State Dept. on July 3, 1937 which said:

Was the date of receipt by the State Dept past midnight GCT so that it was stamped 3 July (GCT) while it was received in San Francisco late on 2 July Local and also the Howland date?

I keep in mind that Amelia took off @ 10am Lae time which was also 00hrs GCT. Some say that this was her (Noonan's?) express intention in order to minimize hours confusion on this leg over the 180th meridian. She arrived around at Howland around 19 hrs GCT which corresponded to 19 hours of flight and fuel consumption up to that point.

These other times referenced below need to be converted to GCT. The local (Lae) date and time were 2July'37 and 10am. That instant was also 00hrs GCT 2July'37 and also just past local noon 12:30pm at Howland 1July'37. Sydney has nearly the same local time as at Lae. It was July 1st all over the US.

>"At 6.31, 6.43, and 6.54 PM Sydney time today (July 2nd) on 48.31 meters

These would be 8:31 to 8:54 Nauru time, while other reports have stated times more like 10:30+-pm Nauru time. (Nowhere was it 3 July yet.)

>fairly strong  signals speech not intelligilble no hum of plane in background
>but voice similar to that emitted from plane in flight last night between
>4.30 and 9.30 PM...."

With my time line, The 4:30,9:30 remarks must refer to a local test flight by AE; or the (July 2nd) statement was not about the Sydney location, or do I have my dates mixed up?  It is not a given that airborne transmissions shall always be modulated or accompanied by "hum of plane in flight". But voice recognition would be commonly experienced.

>Sydney Time was Greenwich plus 10 hours so 18:31 Sydney Time on July 2nd was
>04:31 July 3rd GMT.  What you're calling Howland Standard Time (i.e. local

Take 14 hours off of Sydney time to get GCT. It was still the 2nd in London when AE flew over Nauru.

The "new" day starts at noon at the 180th meridian (aka "international date line"). When it is just after noon on the 1st of July at Howland, it is declared by our savants that it is also simultaneously just before noon on the 2nd of July west of the 180th meridian and earlier that same "day" further westward, etc at that same instant.

The pertinent Itasca logs of her arrival nearby all have morning, July 2nd dates, local (Howland) time, which was some 19 actual hours after her Lae takeoff.

>time as used by Itasca at Howland) was Greenwich minus 11.5 hours, so when
>Nauru heard the first transmission it was 17:01 local time aboard Itasca.
>The other transmissions came at 17:13 and 17:24.  It looks like somebody is
>transmitting every quarter hour but is jumping the gun a bit.
>
>These transmissions are NOT occurring in the morning while Earhart is in
>flight, as Safford claims.  They are being heard in the evening a good five
>hours after Earhart must be down somewhere.  It is still daylight and she is
>transmitting (if the tranmissions are from her) on her "daytime" frequency of
>6210 kcs.

Are you sure of your times?
You have to go back to original references.
We'll get this straightened out yet.....

>I agree that Safford's estimated "splash down" point and his comment about
>rescue possibilities appear completely unfounded.  And Earhart never said she
>was "running out of gas."

True. My agreement extends to the notion that she back-tracked hundreds of miles westward.

Ang.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

I had a couple of things messed up, but if the time of the Nauru receptions was on the evening of July 3rd (not the 2nd), then it all works out fine.

I don't, however, see any reason to think that Earhart backtracked hundreds of miles westward.  That's not what she said she was doing.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:21:08 EDT
From:         Suzanne
Subject:      Re: Rebuilt P-38

It is also about a culture which substitutes ersatz experience over the genuine article -- i.e., visit Europe by going to Disney World's Epcot, experience New York and Egypt by visiting the mock ups in Las Vegas...Go figure.

LTM,
Suzanne #2184
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:12:42 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Captive of Air Classics

Jim Tierney, TIGHAR 0821, was kind enough to fax me a copy of the article appearing in the June issue of Air Classics magazine entitled Captive of the Japanese.

It's a rehash of the "Love to mother" story (see the FAQ section of the TIGHAR website).  No new information is offered except the author's interview with a mysterious former-OSS lieutenant who was supposedly the second-in-command of the unit that liberated the Weihsien Assembly Center. The author conveniently declines to reveal the officer's name so there is no way to resolve the discrepancies between his allegations and the recollections of James Moore, another member of the unit who thoroughly debunked the whole story in a 1995 letter.  Moore freely provides the names of other members of the unit and insists that all internees were well documented.  The camp was liberated on August 17, 1945 (not March 17th as the article says, but that is almost certainly a classic Air Classics misprint). There was no "Betty bomber" in which "the Yank" was supposedly evacuated. Twelve internees who required hospitalization were evacuated by C-47 on August 28th, the date of the "Love to mother" message.

The fanciful tale presented in Air Classics doesn't even hold together within itself.  The phantom-lieutenant describes a "nearly comatose" woman who lay motionless on a bed with her face turned to the wall and muttered only cryptic words like "howling" or maybe it was "how-and" (ooooh).  This is supposedly the same person who at this same time wrote "Camp liberated. All well. Volumes to tell. Love to mother."

There is a desperate tone to "Captive of the Japanese" with the author shouting at the reader in all caps that "The Earhart/Putnam message was NO MISTAKE." as if the vehemence of his own conviction should suffice to convince where facts and logic fail.  With luck, it will be the last gasp of a theory that was born of racism, jingoism, and paranoia, and now only finds voice in the pages of pathetic publications like Air Classics.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:32:03 EDT
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      TIME????

I am TOTALLY confused on this time thing. I think it could only be explained with a graph, but that can't be put on the Forum. Maybe the website.

We must keep in mind that there is a difference between GCT and GMT, a 12 hour difference. You cannot give a time and just say Greenwich.

GCT, Greenwich Civil Time = 180 th Meridian. (Pacific Ocean).

GMT, Greenwich Mean Time = 0 Meridian. ( England).

Safford covers this in his Preface.

QUOTE   "The matter of Time can be even more confusing, because so many systems of time were used during the Earhart flght and search. These times are defined as follows:-

GCT- Greenwch Civil Time - 0000 to 2400, the day commencing when the fictitious " Mean Sun" crosses to 180th Meridian ( International Date Line ). GCT was in use by the U.S. Navy in 1937. It took the Navy twenty years to educate the Army to the fact that the world is round and that GCT should be used in all communications. One of the few benefits resulting from the Earhart flight was world-wide agreement to use GCT exclusively for Distress Communications.

GMT - Greenwich Mean Time - from 0000 to 2400, the day commencing when the Mean Sun crosses the meridian of Greenwich ( London ). The British and " Commonwealth " Navies were using GMT in 1937. The U.S. Navy had used GMT up through World War I. Unfortunately, some writers have used GMT when they meant GCT, a discrepancy of twelve hours. HMS Achilles used GMT correctly; the others did not.

Zone Time - expressed as plus if West or Minus if East of Greenwich and a number representing the difference in hours between the meridian of Greenwich ( Zone Zero ) and the central meridian of the Time-Zone. The hours ran from 0000 to 2400, with local noon at 1200. The time zones were normally in integral hours, but Honolulu and Howland were on the Half-hour.

PST - Pacific Standard Time - Zone plus 8.

Honolulu Time -                       Zone plus 10 1/2

HST-Howland Standard Time-Zone plus 11 1/2  ( HST could also have meant Hawaiian or Honolulu Time, but fortunately was not used. )

Sydney Time -                          Zone minus 10

Lae Time -                                Zone minus 10

Nauru Time -                            Zone minus 11

Zone plus or minus 12 - rarely used because of ambiguity. To eliminate confusion so far as practicable, we will use GCT throughout except where activity is confined to a small area, in which case we will used the local zone time, identifying it in each case .".   UNQUOTE

I would like to clear this up, does Capt. Safford know what he is talking about or not ?

Who is confused, Safford, the people who are copying the messages and relaying them, or the people who are trying to interpet what took place in 1937???

Daryll

*****************************************************************
From Ric

You're right.  We have to be sure we have this straight and I'm not at all sure that we're there yet.  This is the first I've heard that GCT is different from GMT.  Safford's definition of both says that the new day starts when the "Mean Sun" crosses a meridian (180 degree and Greenwich, respectivley).  This strikes me as very odd because it seems to imply that the new day starts at noon instead of midnight.  That can't be right.

Much has been made of Earhart's departure time of 10:00 local time at Lae being the same as 00:00 GMT, but Earhart said specifically that she would use GCT, and if Safford is correct about GCT being 12 hours different from GMT, it means that she would be starting at 12:00 GCT.  Is Safford correct? Was GCT really different from GMT?

Either way, I don't see how it effects the question of whether the Nauru receptions happened in the morning or the evening.  The original message makes it clear that they were heard in the p.m. and Safford's allegation that they were heard when the airplane was still in flight is just as clearly in error.


LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:37:18 EDT
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Captive of Air Classics

Just can't resist interjecting that a nice, juicy, conspiracy speculation is a whole lot easier (since the fact that there is no proof of the conspiracy proves the conspiracy!) and more titilating than all this dreary, plodding research stuff . . .

I also liked what Suzanne 2184 said.  Ersatz.  Good word.  Anybody who doubts this has only to look on the web . . .

Love to mother,
jon 2266
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:43:40 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      Re: Captive of Air Classics

Ric---Thanks for responding to the article on AE in the Forum...

I have been surprised at the lack of questions on it since it has been released. There was only one mention of it last week on the Forum...

Maybe Col. Reineck will respond and defend his position.......

You mention a letter from Moore in 1995...Has that been published by Tighar anywhere?????? Did I miss it????? Can it be released to those on the forum who wish to see it?????

I had a lot of problems with the article and the general confusion of dates, figures, characters and celebrities,etc... I wonder where the B-29 landed with the 'Yank' and the priest and sundry followers and aides... ?????? Could it be McGuire AFB in NJ---close to the home of Mrs. Irene Bolam...............
Onward and upward.....
LTM
Jim Tierney

****************************************************************
From Ric

I expect that the lack of questions is due primarly to the intelligence and good taste of forum subscribers.

We haven't published the letter from Moore because, frankly, the whole "Love to mother" thing has always been such a joke that it never merited that much attention.  Somebody (I'm not even sure who) sent us a copy of the letter years ago.  I'm a bit hesitant to publish it in its entirelty without Moore's permission but if there is sufficient interest I'll try to contact him.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:00:43 EDT
From:         Delilah
Subject:      Re: Captive of Air Classics

With regards to the conspirisy theories...after reading in the paper and on the web about Pres. Kenedy's casket after 35+ years being discarded at sea......I wouldn't put anything past our government.

LTM

Deliliah

****************************************************************
From Ric

What paper?  Where on the web?  You're right to not put anything past our government but you'd also be wise not to believe everything you read.

There's only one thing that the U.S. government is not capable of doing - keeping a secret for very long.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:24:07 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: TIME??

We have lots of good commentary on the topic of GCT vs GMT.

****************************************************************
From Bob Brandenburg 2286

I don't know who Safford is, but I just consulted with my old friend Nathaniel Bowditch, who assures me that GMT and GCT are synonymous.  Good thing, too, because I've won bar bets on this.

Also, see http://gauss.gge.unb.ca/GMT.UT.and.the.RGO.html

for a brief discussion by Richard Langley at the University of New Brunswick, Canada, concerning the history of the Royal Observatory at Greenwich.  Langley mentions that in 1928, the International Astronomical Union recommended that "the time used for compilation of astronomical almanacs, essentially GMT, or what was also sometimes called Greenwich Civil Time, be referred to as Universal Time".

Safford's definition of midnight GCT (which we know as GMT)  is correct, albeit clumsy.  When the sun crosses the 180th meridian, which is local apparent noon there, the time at Greenwich is midnight and a new day is beginning . . . i.e., the day for which it is noon at the 180th meridian.

But he gets tangled when he defines the start of the GMT day as being the time the sun crosses the Greenwich meridian.  As you observed, the day can't start at noon.

The best way to compare event times in the AE saga is to think in terms of GMT.  Trying to correlate events observed simultaneously at different local times in different time zones is a recipe for error.  The KISS principle applies here.

Love to Mother, who knows what time it is.
Bob 2286

*****************************************************************
From Randy Jacobson 1364

Quoting from the 1938 edition of the American Practical Navigator: "It is therefore necessary to have a standard meridian to which the local civil times can be referred, hence the meridian of Greenwich is chosen to be the standard meridian."

Greenwich Mean Time is a later description of the same time, and was not available in 1937, or at least was not in common usage.  Today, we use Universal Time Code, which has the same reference, the Greenwich Meridian.

Safford, if he said this is his manuscript, was absolutely wrong, and is a major howler.

*****************************************************************

From Terry Linley

Out of curiosity, I consulted my trusty old Encyclopaedia Britannica (15th Edition, 1988) concerning the time terminology.  Originally, 00:00 GMT denoted the start of a solar day and occurred at noon.

In 1925, the numbering system for GMT was changed so that the day began at midnight, as did the civil day.  Because the terminology was so confusing, the International Astronomical Union (in 1928) changed the designation of the standard time of the zero meridian to Universal Time, which remains in general use.

So, you were right to assume that there should have been no difference in GMT and GCT at the time of AE's journey.

Terry

****************************************************************
From bethpage89

"Note--Zero hour Greenwich Civil Time is twelve hours before Greenwich Mean Noon of the same date"

--According to the American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac for 1937.

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Okay.  We're all in agreement.  GCT and GMT are the same thing.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:28:17 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Time Zone headaches

Time zones are such a headache.  Let me confuse the forum some more with facts.

1. The first information came from a radio intercept by the Itasca from Radio station KPH (Bolimas Radio, near San Francisco) to the CG radio station in San Francisco.  It was received sometime between 2 and 3AM on July3 local time (101X GMT time - based upon the raw radio transcripts): "NMC de KPF following from VKT (radio Nauru) voice heard fairly strong sigs strength to S3 0843 0854 GMT 48.31 meters speech not interpreted owing bad modulation or speaker shouting into microphone but 3S ce similar to that emitted from plane in flight last night with exception no hum on plane in back ground bkt has not yet contacted with NRUI on 500 kcs VIS gives es Hearing voice about 1000 GMT.  PSE that to NRUI".

2. Based upon the context of this message, it is clear that the times are given in GMT times.  The question is what day?  0800GMT is roughly early evening in Nauru, and the message refers to the previous evening when AE passed Nauru.  This must mean that the reception was heard on 3 July local time, evening.  Let's say for argument at 8PM local time, which is 2000 local time.  To obtain GMT time from Nauru, you must subtract something on the order of 11 hours, but it is still the same day, therefore 03 JULY 37..

3. 0843 GMT 3 July equates to 2213 Howland local time (which is +10.5 zone) and 2113 local time for Itasca (which is +11.5 time zone).  Clearly, this is the evening of July 2, local time.  To get local time from GMT, you must subtract the time zone.  Thus, the message was heard Itasca time sometime the evening that AE went down.

4. Dick Stripple argues that from 0854 GMT(time of last message) to 10XXGMT 03 JUL.  (time of receipt of message in San Francisco, that this is too short a period of time for radio stations to set up and transmit a message of this type.  While extraordinarily fast, commercial systems usually can set up faster than Navy systems.  VKT was part of Amalgamated Wireless, and KPH was also a commercial station.  Dick argues that this is too short a time, thus, the message was wrong, and there is a 12 hour difference, suggesting that these messages were heard in the morning of July 2, when AE could still be up in the air.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

And what do you think?
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:40:21 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Wreck Photo

Don wrote:

> I can not visualize mother nature pitching this aircraft through the brush
> into this field and resting the wing spar on top of the fuselage.

Momma Nature can do anything she wants to, with ease. Fly through a typhoon sometime, and after that observe what a typhoon (or hurricane, same-same) does on the ground.

There are no limits. None. Mother Nature can and will do things that "experts" claim impossible. She is the personification of Murphy's Law.

Tom #2179

*****************************************************************
From Ric

True enough.. but if the airplane in the photo is a Lockheed 10 (and I think it is), there is no need for the wing spar to be pitched anywhere.  A Lockheed 10 does not have a conventional main spar.  It has a "sheer beam" that runs from engine to engine right through the cabin. We can't see the sheer beam in the photo because it is behind the panel with the big lightening holes. The photo appears to show a perfectly normal Lockheed 10 centersection with the upper part of the fuselage missing.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:46:19 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Birds

Ric wrote:

>A gaggle of circling Frigates with wingspans of up to six feet is the sort of
>thing you'd think a pilot might want to avoid.  A bird strike in an airplane
>is no joke.  Energy equals mass times the velocity squared - in other words -
>a couple of pounds of feathers can tear the hell out of airplane.  I once
>watched half a seagull (he came through the prop) put a whopping big dent in
>the wingroot of my Beech Debonair.

And recall that it was a flock of Canada Geese that brought down an AWACS at Elmendorf a few years ago.

Tom #2179

*****************************************************************
From Ric

My favorite bird strike story is about a Border Patrol Super Cub that took a Turkey Vulture through the windshield.  The bird ended up in the pilot's lap, profoundly undead but sufficiently distressed to vomit its last meal all over the inside of the airplane.  The pilot made a hasty, if rather messy, landing.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:55:42 EDT
From:         Harry Poole
Subject:      Re: Battery Life

Although my original thought that the period of time AE could transmit was for several days, a more considered estimate now comes up to about 8 hours, or even longer.

This is based on the percentage of time transmitting, compared to either receiving or non-operating, since the time period available for transmitting AE depends upon its use.

I believe the battery power was rated at 85 amp-hours (two Exide 6-FFHM-13-1).  With the (Western Electric) transmitter requiring perhaps 50 amps and the receiver perhaps 5, expected life can be calculated.

Assuming transmissions of 6 minutes each hour (pick your own number), and a constant drain of 5 amps by the receiver, each hour would drain a total of (5 + 0.1X50) or 10 amp-hours from the battery.

With those assumptions, the battery life would last 8 or so hours, longer if transmit time utilization was less, and/or if the radio was completely shut off for time periods (no reception).

I am still not clear at what time the Nauru signals were received, but if it was in the evening hours, and were very weak, that could indicate a failing battery, and not require the engine to supply generator power.

Ric - does/will the radio log CD include information about the time of transmission, and the time zone the time is referenced from (i.e. whether it is GMT, GCT, Howland or Nauru)?

Again, I am sure that the existance of radio signals verifies the fact that AE's plane landed on land, not water.  The question is at what point in time must we assume that further messages must be hoaxes or misunderstandings?  Even if the engine could run, supplying the radio, the lack of gasoline would stop transmissions.

LTM,
HH Poole

*****************************************************************
From Ric

The CD shows what time the various messages were received and all messages on the CD include a conversion to GMT.

The existence of radio transmissions is proof of nothing but the fact that transmissions were received.  There is no way to be sure who was sending them.  The more credible transmissions seem to end with the "281" message shortly after midnight (Niku time) on July 4th.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:59:27 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Air Classics

Personally I would like to see the letter from Mr. Moore (assuming he approves) if only to put on record his recollections. While I don't think TIGHAR should use its meager resources to track down any remaining members of Mr. Moore's unit, I believe that placing his story and the names of the unit members in a public forum provides other researchers with the opportunity to check the facts on their own.

A short rebuttal of the Col. Reineck's story and Mr. Moore's letter on the forum should be enough to get the ball rolling.  Let's not waste too much time and effort on Col. Reineck's b.s.

        LTM, who never got past major
        Dennis McGee
        #0149CE
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 4 Jun 1999 13:46:25 EDT
From:         Delilah
Subject:      Kennedy coffin

http://cnn.com/US/9905/29/jfk.coffin.ap/
*****************************************************************
From Ric

Okay.  Looks like a legitimate news story.  If ditching the casket was part of some nefarious conspiracy to destroy evidence it illustrates my point that the U.S. government is really lousy at keeping secrets.  However, I think that it's much more likely that this is just one more example of gov't officials exercising poor judgement.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:25:49 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Time Zone headaches

>Dick (Strippel) argues that this is too short a time, thus, the message was
>wrong, and there is a 12 hour difference, suggesting that these messages
>were heard in the morning of July 2, when AE could still be up in the air.
>*****************************************************************
>From Ric
>
>And what do you think?

Are you asking my opinion?  I believe that commercial stations CAN transmit information in an hour's time, if they are set up to do so.  Most commercial stations were up all the time.  It was the Navy and other government stations that had specific schedules that they had to keep, slowing communications.  I believe that the messages were transmitted the night that AE disappeared.

****************************************************************
From Ric

I agree.  I think we have to take original sources at face value unless we can show solid reasons (as opposed to unsubstantiated opinions) why they are mistaken.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:27:08 EDT
From:         Bethpage
Subject:      Re: Birds?

--An Electra missing Howland and managing to stay aloft long enough to reach an alternate?  A bird strike would be the least of her worries!

*****************************************************************
From Ric

No, not the least of her worries.  Just the next of her worries, and a legitimate one when contemplating a landing.  Birds were a big concern at Howland also.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:30:06 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Kennedy coffin

>However, I think that it's much more likely that this is just one more
>example of gov't officials exercising poor judgement.

Being employed by the Navy, I resemble that remark...

****************************************************************
From Bill 2229

> If ditching the casket was part of some nefarious conspiracy
> to destroy evidence it illustrates my point that the U.S. government
> is really lousy at keeping secrets.

And if it wasn't an attempt to destroy evidence, it's another glowing example of our beloved government not knowing when NOT to keep a secret.

    - Bill #2229
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:41:15 EDT
From:         William
Subject:      Wreck Photo

Just a quick question, did the Electra 10E have the capabilities to feather it's props?

William LTM

****************************************************************
From Ric

No.  The 12D40 hubs had no provision for feathering.  "Full-feathering" hubs have a dome covering the end of the prop shaft.  Earhart's aircraft (and the airplane in the Wreck Photo) have a flat end on the shaft.

("Feathering" is the term used for the ability to turn the propeller blades knife-edge to the wind.  In the event of an engine failure in flight, this allows the pilot to keep the dead prop from "windmilling", which would cause far greater air resistance than a motionless blade.  The ability to feather a dead prop is a major safety feature and the Lockheed 10 was one of the last multi-engine designs to lack this capability.)

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:50:42 EDT
From:         Cam Warren
Subject:      TIME, & the Nauru intercepts

Safford - Flight Into Yesterday - Exhibit 78 - "The ship in sight" message:

Telegram from Sydney NSW via Tutuila and Navy Radio.  July 3 1937 Received 2:42 P.M.

SECRETARY OF STATE, WASHINGTON
JULY 3 10:00 P.M.

AMALGATED WIRELESS STATE INFORMATION RECEIVED THAT REPORT FROM NAURU WAS SENT TO [RCA] BOLINAS RADIO QUOTE AT 6:31, 6:43, AND 6:54 SYDNEY TIME TODAY ON 48.31 METERS  (i.e., 6210 kcs) FAIRLY STRONG SIGNALS, SPEECH NOT INTELLIGIBLE, NO HUM OF PLANE IN BACKGROUND, BUT VOICE SIMILAR [TO] THAT EMITTED FROM PLANE IN FLIGHT LAST NIGHT BETWEEN 4:30 AND 9:30 PM UNQUOTE MESSAGE FROM PLANE WHEN AT LEAST 60 MILES SOUTH OF NAURU RECEIVED 8:30 PM SYDNEY TIME JULY SECOND SAYING QUOTE A SHIP IN SIGHT AHEAD UNQUOTE SINCE IDENTIFIED AS STEAMER MYRTLE BANK WHICH ARRIVED NAURU DAYBREAK TODAY REPORTED NO CONTACT BETWEEN ITASCA AND NAURU RADIO CONTINUOUS WATCH BEING MAINTAINED BY NAURU RADIO AND SUVA RADIO DOYLE

Cam Warren

****************************************************************
From Ric

Yeah, we got that.  We have established that Safford's explanation of GCT versus GMT was in error and so, naturally, his interpretation of the significance of the transmissions ( I think "intercepts" is a bit misleading) was also wrong.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:41:57 EDT
From:         R. Johnson
Subject:      Fiji Update

I am very interested in the latest on the Fiji bone search. I understand TIGHAR is sending a two man crew there in June in search of AE remains. I must know the status of this trip. When do they leave for Fiji? How long there? When will we know more about their findings? What is happening now? I must admit, I have become totally obsessed with finding AE since discovering TIGHAR's web site. I honestly can't sleep some nights. Please update the trip to Fiji as soon as possible. I need the sleep.
R. Johnson

****************************************************************
From Ric

Well, if it's any consolation I'm having some sleepless nights myself trying to complete the funding for this summer's field work.  Here's where we stand:

On June 28th our "two man team" made up of Dr. Tom King (Earhart Project archaeologist) and Dr. Karen Burns (Earhart Project forensic anthropologist) will arrive in Fiji to begin a building-by-building search for the bones with the cooperation of the Fiji Museum and the office of the President of Fiji, Ratu Sir Kamisese Mara.

On July 3rd the Niku Recon team will arrive Fiji and begin loading the expedition ship Nai'a for departure on July 5th.  Dr. Burns will sail with the expedition while Dr. King remains in Fiji to continue the bone search. He will be joined on July 10th by Kristin Tague.  Barb Norris also plans to travel to Fiji to assist in the bone search.  Dr. King will return to the States on July 15th while Kris and possibly Barb will remain is Fiji until the Niku Recon team returns on July 26th.  At that time Dr. Burns and I will deal with the results of the search - whatever they may be.

At this time, the Niku Recon team is made up of eleven individuals.  We have room for three more (four if two are a couple who can share a double bunk). A prospective Sponsor/Team Member must be able to make a $20,000 contribution to the project (which should be fully tax deductible for U.S. citizens) and must be in good enough physical condition to be away from hospital medical care for three weeks (there will be a physician aboard the ship).  You're responsible for your own transportation to and from Fiji (about $1,000 round trip from L.A.) and any expenses while you're there (which should be minimal).  You'll have no additional expenses while you're on the expedition (July 5th-26th).  There are, of course, the usual waivers and releases to be signed.

We're presently $50,000 short.  We're committed to the expedition and have already paid over $65,000 in nonrefundable charges.  If we can find acceptable Sponsor/Team Members for the remaining berths we'll be okay.  In any event, as you can see, we need all the help we can get.  If you might be interested in becoming a Sponsor/Team Member please call me at (302)994-4410.

If you can help with a contribution of any size please send it to:
TIGHAR
1999 Expedition
2812 Fawkes Drive
Wilmington, DE  19808

Or you can call or fax us with credit card information.  Fax number is (302) 994-7945.

Let's get this job done and we can all get some sleep.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Jun 1999 12:09:21 EDT
From:         Dave Porter
Subject:      birdstrikes

The best birdstrike story I ever heard (I'm probably getting some details wrong, and I don't even know for sure if it's true) had to do with the FAA loaning out its "chicken cannon", used to test aircraft windshields by launching chicken carcasses at them at high speed, to the Brits who wanted to test the windscreen of one of their high speed trains.  The Brits, alarmed at their test results of penetrating not only the windscreen, but also several bulkheads rearward, ask the FAA for advice.  The FAA responds, "first, thaw out the frozen chicken carcass..."

LTM, Dave Porter, 2288
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Jun 1999 12:40:01 EDT
From:         Terry Linley
Subject:      Re: Fiji Update

Thanks for the update on Fiji and the expedition in general.  If my children were older and I had $20,000 gathering dust, I'd send it to you in a heartbeat (and join you on Nai'a as your resident biologist).  Since those two conditions cannot be met right now, please accept my $100 donation as a start.  I am sure there are many more members of TIGHAR who can do the same for the sake of finding Amelia's plane....if we cannot be there on Niku with you, then we'll contribute to the effort.

Love to Mother (and the entire Niku team),
Terry Ann Linley

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks Terry.  As of today (6/6/99) there are 623 subscribers to the Earhart Forum. If every forum subscriber followed your example we'd be in Fat City.

This forum is a valuable research tool, but real progress doesn't come from sitting around whacking our keyboards.  From the beginning, what has distinguished the Earhart Project from other Earhart research has been the field work.   We go.  We do.  We find.  And that takes money.  We've never had a sugar daddy - indivdual or corporate.  Everything we've done has come primarily from many small contributions from ordinary people who just want to help us get to the truth.  This is a grassroots movement, and as we've said before "the people will find Amelia."

Well, the people is you.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:17:24 EDT
From:         Bethpage
Subject:      Lines of position

Sun and moon observations on July 2, 1937, would provide nearly perpendicular lines of position for finding Howland Island.

**************************************************************
From Ric

The problem with the moon observation is that you can't see the moon, or take another shot on the sun, from where Earhart says she is (1,000 feet) when she's looking for Howland.  There's a deck of scattered cumulus with bases at about 2,000 feet.  You can't hope to see an island unless you get down below the clouds.

Noonan can take his initial sun shot at dawn when they're still at altitude (they should be at 10,000 feet) and he can advance that LOP by dead reckoning through Howland.  But once they get in close they have to descend. By the time they know they have a problem, the clouds have built to the point that it would be extremely expensive in time and fuel to climb back up to where they can take more observations, ands by then the moon may be gone anyway.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:25:35 EDT
From:         Bethpage
Subject:      Moon Line of Position

So that he would know where Howland lay on the 157-337 (Sun) Line of Position, Noonan would have precomputed a second Line of Position running through Howland using another body visible in daylight.

The Moon was in its phase of Last Quarter on July 2, 1937.  That would give a navigator half of the Moon's disk.  It would be very high at sunrise, be up all morning, and quite visible unless obscured by clouds.  It would set just before Local Noon.  The Moon Line of Position and the Sun Line of Position would have been nearly perpendicular.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

As noted in my earlier reply, the clouds were certainly a problem once they were down low.

A very high moon could also have been difficult to observe from an aircraft with no astrodome.

For whatever reason, (and none of us can know for sure), Noonan was not able to get the accurate position you feel he should have been able to get.  It's also important to remember than anytime we find ourselves using the term "would have" in discussions like this it means we're guessing.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:44:36 EDT
From:         Angelo Campanella
Subject:      BEVIS and McMenamy

Palmer Bevis report of McMenany & monitor radio signal receptions in Los Angeles 2-7JUL37.

In February of 1940, Palmer Bevis, hired previously by the "Amelia Earhart Foundation " of Oakland, sent a detailed report to Eleanor Roosevelt to inspire a new expedition to find AE. I quote from a copy of Bevis' report copied from the Roosevelt Library:

That report includes an account of Walter McMenamy who was one of AE's previous radio experts that was noted for being able to " pick up AE's signals when others could not". The story goes that after Lockheed learned that AE was overdue, they called McMenamy and asked him to listen. In the company of another radio amateur, Karl Pierson, some signals were picked up that they "positively identified as being from the Earhart plane".

Shortly after 11pm 2 July 37 (LA time, GGT-8= 07CGT 3JUL37, Howland +3:30 = 19:30 2JUL37, trip-hour 31), a weak signal was received on 6210kc, not understood. On another radio receiver set  tuned to 3105kc in the same room, they heard two distinctly separate signals they say were from the Itasca and from the plane; apparently not hearing each other. [Itasca ship's log indicates searching near Howland at that time. I do not have Itasca radio log information for that time.]

Early the morning of 3JUL37 (LA time) McMenamy & Pierson heard a distress signal on one of those frequencies, that McMenamy positively identified as being "...from the plane, poorly sent". All three radio operators now present in the room "state that this first SOS signal was repeated over and over again for about five minutes". Further distress calls and garbled attempts to give position were received until about 9am (06:30 Howland time). Some signals were sufficiently loud to be heard on the loudspeaker.

On 3July the British cruiser HMS Achilles in the Pacific had reported that "at 11:30am we heard an unknown station on 3105kc make a report as follows: "Please give us a few dashes if you get us'. The station then repeated KHAQQ twice, then disappeared."

Later, the Government San Francisco monitoring (receiving) station made several receptions with their antenna that was beamed to the pacific. The more credible (my opinion) were:

4JUL37 shortly before midnight (about Howland 9pm) Itasca was heard calling the plane, asking for an answer. Shortly after a carrier was heard on the Earhart frequency and this was reported 15 to 20 minutes past each hour until 9:05 the next morning 5JUL37 (Howland 5:35am). That same morning, McMenamy et al telephoned (to the monitor station?) to say that they picked up more Earhart signals - the "first in two days". They reported hearing the Itasca call Earhart, and also definite answering signals from the plane, the last of which ended "in a decided sputtering".

At 6:17 the same morning (Howland 02:47 5JUL37) the monitor heard Itasca call KHAQQ, and a man's voice answered on the Earhart frequency. Only one word, "one", was distinguishable. The "Press Wireless" also  reported hearing signals which they could not identify on the Earhart frequency.

Howland Island (Itasca?) reported that same morning at 10:43 (5JUL37, but who's location?) hearing "KHAQQ" quoting a bearing of 281 degrees - with no reference & hence of no use. Pan American Airways also the same morning heard apparently the same signal on which  they found a bearing of 155 degrees from Wake Island.

The next morning - 6 JUL37 - a Los Angeles operator, Louis Messier, reported he heard a weak code signal at 3:30 am (Howland midnight). It was sent very slowly and Messier logged it as: "17 na u 61 4 southwes 1 23 sou owl 23 ja so not nx call equen 170 sou sec will sou nant now sou". (In my opinion, radio Hams might recognize some useful meanings from this poorly sent and received message.)

The next morning (7JUL37) McMenamy and Pierson heard their last sounds from the Earhart frequency, a rippling carrier at 1:22am (Howland 9:52pm). This same effect was heard by Honolulu amateur stations from 9:17pm to 10:37pm (Howland 8:47pm to 10:07pm) the same day.

Ang. Campanella 6JUN99.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Very interesting. I wasn't aware of the Bevis Report and I'd love to have a copy of the complete report for our files.

This information illustrates the difficulties in assessing the post-loss messages.  Walt McMenamy is a problem.  He represented himself as "one of AE's previous radio experts" but we've never been able to find any independent documentation to back that up.  He and Pierson got lots of media attention at the time of the disappearance but McMenamy later made all kinds of wild claims about the Navy and secret missions.  I have a 1955 audio tape of an interview with him that should be called the Butthead Report.

I suspect that we could have a lot fun with the fragmented message reported by Messier, but in the end it would all be guessing.  I think that the best we can say about the post-loss messages is that some of them may have been genuine but there is no way to tell for sure - yet.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:52:04 EDT
From:         Angelo Campanella
Subject:      The CHATER (Lae) New Guinea Airways report.

Chater (Lae) Report Details

Eric H. Chater (New Guineas Airways Manager) on 25 July 1937 wrote a detailed report to a Maurice.E. Griffin of Placer Management Ltd of San Franciso. (Also,a Frank W. Griffin was a bystander in San Francisco.) Eric Chater was a direct witness to AE preparations, departure and some later radio message receptions in Lae. I provide the following excerpts on such timing events:

On 6:35am 1JUL37 AE did a 30 minute communications test flight. Two-way communications was established with the New Guinea Airways Lae station. The Lae operator also sent out a long dash while AE tried to get an RDF null. She later said she was unable to get a minimum and concluded that the Lae station was "... too powerful and too close.".

AE delayed takeoff that day subject to getting an accurate time signal for Noonan's chronometer. It was not until 10:20pm that night after all east Australian coastal stations requested shipping to maintain 10 minutes of radio silence while the Adelaide time signal was transmitted. This was then received clearly in Lae and FN duly found his chronometer to be 3 seconds slow. At 8am the next morning, 2JUL37, FN found a time signal from Saigon to check exactly the same. Therefore, FN was "calibrated" +- one second or better, in my opinion.

It was Chater's opinion that the plane carried 1100 US gallons of fuel overall when it took off. It was his understanding that the plane had a full-fuel capacity of 1150 US gallons. The New Guinea personnel filled all tanks with 87 octane fuel except one 81-gallon tank that was "already about half-full" with 100 octane fuel for take-off purposes.

It was agreed by AE for her to transmit 18 minutes past each hour to report her enroute weather encountered. Due to local 6210kc interference, the first such report was not until 2:18 (trip-hour 4:18) stating "Height 7000 feet Speed 140 knots...". At 3:19 (t-h 5:19) "Height 10000 feet Position 150.7 east 7.3 south Cumulus Clouds..". At 5:18 (t-h 7:19) AE reported "Position 4.33 south 159.7 east Height 8000 feet over cumulus clouds Wind 23 knots.

No further radio signals were picked up. by Lae New Guinea Airways. Chater believes that AE switched to 3105kc in her belief that it was better for night radio wave propagation.

Chater says that "..both AE and FN could read Morse Code letters only if sent very slowly and repeated often. Consequently, the radio direction finding apparatus on the Electra would be useless or misleading unless the radio station used voice for identification".

Ang. Campanella 6JUN99

****************************************************************
From Ric

The importance of the Chater letter can hardly be overstated and, I'm proud to say, it came to light in 1991 as a direct result of TIGHAR's work.  You'll find the entire report on the TIGHAR website.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:00:35 EDT
From:         Angelo Campanella
Subject:      Re: TIME????

In working through the promised "diagram", I foud a lot of references, which in addition to my interprtation of the 3JUL37 telegram, two of which (Chater and Bevis reports) I will separtely detail in two separate additional message.

re "Telegram" Nauru Intercepts Timings:

I interpret the timings of the 3July 37 Telegram from Sydney to DCA this way:

The telegram origin place and time is Sydney, 10PM 3JUL37(12 GCT 3JUL37) (Washington time 07am 3JUL37).

It relays that in their morning, at 6:31, 6:43 and 6:54 (Howland times 9:01, 9:13 and 9:54, and through the trip-hours 21:01 to 21:54) Sydney heard "..strong signals, speech unintelligible,  no hum..., voices familiar..".

Sydney also states that previously, between Sydney hours 4:30-9:30pm (Trip-hours 6:30 through 11:30) they heard clear broadcasts from AE. In particular one message at 8:30pm (trip-hour 10:30) that Sydney reckons that AE was "at least 60 miles south of Nauru "...ship in sight...".

Sydney stated further that Nauru and Suva are maintaining continuous watch.

The telegram reception time in Washington is 2:42pm. That implies 7-3/4 hours in transit, in my opinion credible for a 1937 relayed-radio message.

Ang. Campanella 6JUN99.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

No.  Your statement that "It (the telegram) relays that in their morning, at 6:31, 6:43 and 6:54  (Howland times 9:01, 9:13 and 9:54, and through the trip-hours 21:01 to 21:54) Sydney heard "..strong signals, speech unintelligible,  no hum..., voices familiar..". is incorrect.

The telegram specifically states that it was Nauru, not Sydney, that heard the transmissions and that they were received at "6.31, 6.43 AND 6.54 PM SYDNEY TIME TODAY."  The messages were not heard in the morning.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:04:47 EDT
From:         Angelo Campanella
Subject:      Ground Radar?

On a 'way out' topic, what has been your opinion of ground radar to find metal object in the bush?

I have an OSU colleague in town that has built "ice radar" sets for the OSU Antarctic expeditions for finding under-snow and ice metal. Range seems to be a few dozen feet. I know no more, but the Island brush and jungle face pose a similar screening problem.

Ang.

****************************************************************
From Ric

We've looked at GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) several times as a possible technology for use at Niku but at this time its limitations in the island environment far outweigh any possible benefit.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:11:40 EDT
From:         Angelo Campanella
Subject:      Ground Radar (Any Aircraft Radar Altimeter)

Colleague Frank Huffman, K8OVP gives the following:

For locating metal objects (1'-10' in size) at short range (5-100' or more), surplus aircraft radar altimeters have been found to be most practical. A PPI display of some sort is needed. Useful units have ranged from the APN-1 (operating at 400 mHz, 75 cm wavelength) through the APN-22 (4 gHz = 7.5 cm). The commercial SCR-714 is also useful. The larger ones are sled-mounted (to find things buried under ice).

Frank also says that a JPL scientist, Alina Moussessian (alina.moussessian@jpl.nasa.gov) has recently converted such sets into ice
radars.

Frank suggests ideally that these could be flown over the suject terrain in a helicopter, looking for "strong" return blips. Hand-carried up a tree is a viable alternative. My thought was taht even beamed horizontally while walking on the dsurface, it still beats slogging through every square yard of overgrown jungle-bush. You would beam it at right angles to your walking path, looking for strong blips. Strips at least 50' wide (SWAG) could be searched that way.

Ang.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

There's a big difference between towing a GPR sled over ice and trying to use it horizontally to see through vegetation.  There are vegetation-penetrating versions of GPR that have been deployed from the air but they're a lot more complicated, larger and heavier than a little aircraft radar altimeter.

We've been down this road.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:19:12 EDT
From:         Don
Subject:      Re: Wreck Photo

This is sort of off the record, but I want to recant my earlier post where I expressed skepticism regarding the wreck photo.  Last week I had purchased a book about Amelia and was flipping through some of the photo pages and they had a side shot of the Electra after it crashed in Hawaii.  The picture is a shot of the starboard engine at night with the brightest part of the flash from the camera reflecting off the forward most section of the ring cowl and you can distinctly see where the ring cowl separates from what appears to be panels just aft of it.  All photos I have seen prior to this failed to reveal that seam which led me to believe that the cowling of of the Electra's engine was a different type construction than that of the wreck photo.  Just when I was about to "humbug" the wreck photo away, I am starting to see it in a new light and find myself again sitting here staring at it.  I suppose it is more conversation than help but only fair to recant earlier comments made regarding this photo.

****************************************************************
From Ric

I hope you don't mind that I posted this.  It came in as a submitted posting rather than a private message and you said it is "sort of" off the record. Anyway, I'm always happy to post recantation of heresy.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:31:09 EDT
From:         Angelo Campanella
Subject:      Re: Time Zone headaches

>1. The first information came from a radio intercept by the Itasca from
>Radio station KPH (Bolimas Radio, near San Francisco) to the CG radio
>station in San Francisco.  It was received sometime between 2 and 3AM on
>July3 local time (101X GMT time - based upon the raw radio transcripts):
>"NMC de KPF following from VKT (radio Nauru) voice heard fairly strong sigs
>strength to S3 0843 0854 GMT 48.31 meters speech not interpreted owing bad
>modulation or speaker shouting into microphone but 3S ce similar to that
>emitted from plane in flight last night with exception no hum on plane in
>back ground bkt has not yet contacted with NRUI on 500 kcs VIS gives es
>Hearing voice about 1000 GMT.  PSE that to NRUI".

I presume that NRUI the Itasca radio call sign.

I read this as an "intercept" by the Itasca of West Coast radio traffic not primarily directed to the Itasca. In that case,we need a more primary reference: The San Francisco CG monitor radio log for instance. The problem with the Sydney message, relayed and unfortunately paraphrased "6:31, 6:43 and 6:54 today.." omitted the am/pm distinction. But they did use the pm distinction in referencing events the afternoon and evening before. I took the absence of pm to infer "am". Granted, the Itasca log quotes GMT values. Was that yet another paraphrasing action, or was it literal? Only Sydney, Nauru and San Francisco radio logs (not commercial news releases) can add better facts.

(BTW, for the record, in your past TIGHAR tracks you refer to an earlier Itasca log entry "... NRUI2 DE NRUI1 P AR 0800-0803...". Was that the Itasca calling Cipriani on Howland island who was using an HF-RDF set trying unsuccessfully to get directional bearings on AE still en route?)

(Also, my referencing an AE final flight westward was based on my confusion of your  favored Nikumaroro (Gardner) Island with Nikunau Island that I thought your meant - and in the Gilberts, previously overflown by AE).

****************************************************************
From Ric

You say that the Itasca log quotes GMT values.  Where does it do that?  The radio logs all use local time as does the deck log.

As I recall, NRUI1 was Ciprianni but I'm not sure who NRUI2 was.  Randy (Jacobson), do you know?

If AE and FN were on course the only island of the Gilberts they should have flown over was Tabetuia and, indeed, in 1940 people on that island told the captain of an American yacht seeking information about Earhart that they had heard a plane pass high overhead that night.

As witness testimony goes it's pretty shaky, but that's what was reported.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:38:30 EDT
From:         Phil Tanner
Subject:      Re: Fiji Update

Terry wrote:

>if we cannot be there on Niku with
>you, then we'll contribute to the effort.
>Love to Mother (and the entire Niku team)

Absolutely - my donation for the same sum is in the post. Look at it as an investment in brain exercise. How much would you spend on membership of a gym or a pair of running shoes?

LTM, Phil 2276

******************************************************************
From Ric

Look at that!  And Phil's a Brit!  He doesn't even get a tax deduction.

Okay, who's next?   Tell you what - everyone who pledges $100 in the next week gets a FREE video tape of this summer's expedition (and you thought it was going to cost you 50 bucks). So far we have two -
Terry
Phil
only 621 forum subscribers to go.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:22:02 EDT
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      Time out ?

I haven't had so many headaches since I was trying to learn how to analyze simple electrical circuits using ohms law.

Knowing that hundreds of people have covered all this before, makes me hesitant to point this out.

From the Tighar website ( Log Jam ):

"The previous evening the ship received word that Earhart had departed Lae at 00:00 Greenwich time (10:00 a.m. in Lae and 11:30 a.m. at Howland) that morning and should be expected at Howland 18 hours later, or 05:30 a.m. on July 2nd."

I am looking at a flat " World Map " with meridians that have a little clock at the bottom, every 15 deg.s is one hour difference.

Starting at 0 deg. meridian ( 0000 Greenwich time, GCT/GMT ? ) I move westward 11 hours to 165 deg. W. long. Howland island is just short of the 180 deg. meridian, between 165 deg, W. Long. and 180 deg.s. I can understand 11:30 a.m.

From Howland I keep moving westward. I pass the 180 deg. meridian, the 165 deg. E. Long. meridian and the 150 deg. E. Long. meridian, each one of these is 1 hr difference, before reaching Lae N.G.

I seems to me that there is a TWO ( 2 ) hour difference between Lae and Howland island.

Daryll

***************************************************************
From Ric

And you are correct - for 1999.  But in 1937 the Navy and the Coast Guard were using half-hour time zones in the Central Pacific.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:19:00 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Expedition Funding

This could work.  Yesterday (6/7) we had two $100 contributions by

Terry Linley #2297
Phil Tanner #2276

toward our $50,000 shortfall for this summer's field work in the Pacific (Fiji Bone Search and Niku Recon).  I offered to give each $100 contributor a copy of the video we'll produce from tape we'll shoot during those expeditions.  In the past 24 hours the following forum subscribers have responded with pledges:

Tom King, 0391CEB - who is also sponsoring two additional video recipients.
We suggest -
Tom Crouch, Chairman of Aeronautics at NASM - who thinks Niku is a small island.
Rollin Reineck, author of numerous captured-by-the-Japanese articles.

Also responding were -
Tom Abran #2296
Peter Boor #0856C
Jim Tierney #0821
Mark Cameron (not yet a member but we're no less grateful for his support)
Dean Andrea #2056
Dave Eberle #0921
Dennis McGee #0149CE who says -

Let's see, for $100 I can fix my air conditioner or support the Niku expedition and give up the A/C for the summer.
Hm-m-m-m, what's a guy to do?
                I think I'll make the donation.
                Then, I'll go out to the Chesapeake Bay and net a few of Blue Crabs, throw the crabs and some sand on the living room floor, drag my brush pile inside, and it will be just like being on Niku.  Crabs, sand, rotting vegetation, and sweltering heat.  Hey man, it doesn't get any better than that!  The only thing missing will be those cool tropical evening breezes wafting over our semi-naked bodies in the twinkling starlight as we sing camp songs and tell ghost stories.
                The check is in the mail.

                LTM, who prefers the Hyatt
                Dennis McGee, #0149CE
******************************************************************
Right.

That's 12 so far and our $50,000 shortfall is now a $48,800 shortfall.  There are still 611 forum subscribers we're waiting to hear from.  Who's next?

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:23:38 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Time Zone headaches

>You say that the Itasca log quotes GMT values.  Where does it do that?  The
>radio logs all use local time as does the deck log.
>
>As I recall, NRUI1 was Cipriani but I'm not sure who NRUI2 was.  Randy
>(Jacobson), do you know?

The source is from Thompson's radio transcripts, and it was intercepted and not expressly meant for them.  The GMT time stamp, if accurate, matches all other information (the cable and references to it).  If it was AM, then it wouldn't match.  Nauru had two time zones, if I remember correctly, neither of which were +or-12.  One was 11 (civil), the other was 11.5 for official business.  NRUI2 was Howland Island.  I don't believe NRUI1 is accurate; I'd have to check the originals and I am on travel for a couple of weeks.

Randy

***************************************************************
From Ric

I checked the original logs.  You're correct.  NRUI2 is Howland (Cipriani). There is no NRUI1.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:47:41 EDT
From:         Don
Subject:      Re: Wreck Photo

Lightning holes? I never really looked at them as lightning holes, they looked more like holes in the wing spar used for strengthening. I'm sure it has a shear beam, and if I am correct, it is actually two beams riveted together in case the wing ever cracked from stress or corrosion, this would allow for the structure to remain intact without completely snapping it in half, but you are saying that this is not the beam at all - interesting.  I spent about an hour today looking at the super high resolution image hoping to find "serial numbers" but came across some strange lines instead, especially on top of the sloping treeline in the background.  I wonder if  the type of film used for this picture or maybe the brownie camera itself caused all those lines which makes the image look as though it has been cropped together. ('visions of Oswald holding that gun run through my mind') And the glare! That drove me nutz.  The glare in back of the engine is irritating as well.  Everytime I got close to really seeing something, my 64 megs of ram would crap out and my system reboots.  It is a very interesting image, reeks of conspiracy.  I love it.  Ill take this over the alt.binaries any day.  I've been trying to find actual blue prints of the Lockheed's structure on the internet, anyone have any information where they might be. Im sure there is a drawing or two out there somewhere.  As always, many thanks.

****************************************************************
From Ric

Not lightning holes ( I guess that would be holes caused by lightning strikes).  Those are lightening holes - holes to lighten the structure without reducing its strength.

The Electra wing structure is very unusual.  As shown in the Research Bulletin on the TIGHAR website, the Lockheed 10 has precisely the structure that appears in the wreck photo.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 14:14:14 EDT
From:         Bethpage
Subject:      Mischarted.

I read that Howland Island's position was given wrong--placing it just a few (6?) miles northwest of its true position--in some charts that may have been used by Noonan.  Is this true?

**************************************************************
From Ric

It is true that Howland's position as plotted by Clarence Williams (a chart-preparer hired by Earhart prior to the first world flight attempt) was off by about 5 nm, but it is not at all clear whether Earhart and Noonan had updated and correct information at the time of the July 2nd flight.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 14:16:50 EDT
From:         Angelo Campanella
Subject:      Re: Time Zone headaches

Ric wrote:

>You say that the Itasca log quotes GMT values.  Where does it do that?  The
>radio logs all use local time as does the deck log.

I give you part of your (Randy?) message provided previously:

>From Randy Jacobson 1364
>
>Time zones are such a headache.  Let me confuse the forum some more with
>facts.
>1. The first information came from a radio intercept by the Itasca from
>Radio station KPH (Bolimas Radio, near San Francisco) to the CG radio
>station in San Francisco.  It was received sometime between 2 and 3AM on
>July3 local time (101X GMT time - based upon the raw radio transcripts):
>"NMC de KPF following from VKT (radio Nauru) voice heard fairly strong sigs
>strength to S3 0843 0854 GMT 48.31 meters speech not interpreted owing bad
>modulation or speaker shouting into microphone but 3S ce similar to that
>emitted from plane in flight last night with exception no hum on plane in
>back ground bkt has not yet contacted with NRUI on 500 kcs VIS gives es
>Hearing voice about 1000 GMT.  PSE that to NRUI".

Note that
A-Inferred is an intercept (reception) by the Itasca.
B-Quoted is the GMT qualifier.

Question:
Who's deed was it to install the GMT qualifier in this message statement?

I notice some apparent errors in that paragraph:

'3S ce' may be a corrupted reception of the word 'voice'.
'bkt' may be a corruption of 'VKT'

>As I recall, NRUI1 was Cipriani but I'm not sure who NRUI2 was.  Randy
>(Jacobson), do you know?

My understanding of sub-station#1 and sub-station#2 is that the main station is implicitly #1 and hence not usually stated. But if a sub-station is created, it is designated #2 while the main station assumes the suffix of #1.

Hence I believe that Itasca was NRUI1 while Cipriani as a shore detachment from the Itasca was designated NRUI2. I think that this process is the knee-jerk reaction of communications personnel.

In that case, the 8:03 entry was a run-together entry, as you already noted had become a convention on that very busy morning in the Itasca radio room.

Ang.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

I think I see where the problem is.  You and Randy both seem to be using the message as it appears in Cdr. Warner Thompson's (captain of the Itasca) report entitled "Radio Transcripts Earhart Flight" dated 19 July 1937 as a source for the messages. (The GMT notation is Thompson's.) The message as it appears in Thompson's report is actually a paraphasing of the original telegram sent to the Secretary of State. You're struggling to explain ambiguities that don't exist in the original message.

The original telegram  (on file at the National Archives) reads:

From Sydney N.S.W. via Tutuila and N.R.
Dated July 3, 1937
Received 2:42 p.m.

July 3, 10 p.m.
Amalgamated Wireless state information received that report from Peru (corrected to "Nauru") was sent to Bolinas radio "at 6.31, 6.43 and 6.54 p.m. Sydney time today on 48.31 meters, fairly strong signals, speech not intelligible, no hum of plane in background but voice similar that emitted from plane in flight last night between 4.30 and 9.30 p.m." Message from plane when at least 60 miles south of Nauru received 8.30 p.m., Sydney time, July second saying "a ship in sight ahead".  since identified as steamer MYRTLEBANK which arrived Nauru daybreak today.  Continuous watch being maintained by Nauru radio and Suva radio. Doyle

NRUI was Itasca's call sign.  NRUI2 was Cipriani's sub-station on Howland. There was no NRUI1.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 14:39:30 EDT
From:         Darrell Houghton
Subject:      Re: Expedition Funding

Wish I had the 20 grand to join you on the expedition. The next best thing would be a copy of the video tape, so charge my credit card for $100.

Darrell Houghton 2188

******************************************************************

From Dave Morris

I am so new to this forum I am uncertain as how to respond.  I want to donate to the trip, and will do so in 2 checks, as I am a student (old man though! 32 :) ) and have all the bills that accompany the search for a better education.  $100 is a small investment in history and peace of mind for those closely involved, and those who have a familial tie to Ms. Earhart and Mr. Noonan.  One can only hope for the success of the expedition, and any effort toward this end must be made as achievable as possible.

I am certain TIGHAR will meet their goal.  I know if I can cough up a few stray dollars anyone on this forum can as well!  So please follow the lead and contribute as you are able.  Now, what is that address for the check again ahahh.

Dave Morris

PS I have to secure a membership as well, and will do so promptly!

****************************************************************
From Ric

I'd say you reponded perfectly.

That's 14 heros as of 14:20 on 6/8/99.  By name:
Terry Linley #2297
Phil Tanner #2276
Tom King #0391CEB
Tom Crouch (courtesy of Tom King)
Rollin Reineck (courtesy of Tom King)
Tom Abran #2296
Peter Boor #0856C
Jim Tierney #0821
Mark Cameron (not yet a member but we're no less grateful for his support)
Dean Andrea #2056
Dave Eberle #0921
Dennis McGee #0149CE
Darrell Houghton #2188
Dave Morris (number pending)

What if this summer's work finds the proverbial "smoking gun" that ends 62 years of speculation and solves The Last Great American Mystery?  It could be bones in Fiji or airplane wreckage on Nikumaroro, or both. What if that happened and your name wasn't on this list?  How would you explain that to your grandchildren?  (Yeah, I knew all about it but I wasn't part of it.)

Did I mention that everyone who helps sponsor the work will get a credit on the video?

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:36:02 EDT
From:         Rolling Reineck
Subject:      Re: Expedition Funding

I vehemently object to any one giving you money in my name.  I have personally and proudly paid for all my reserch and have no intention of contributing one single penny to you personally or through some surrogate.

****************************************************************
From Ric

Try not to take it so hard.  Nobody is suggesting that you're a TIGHAR supporter and it was my idea, not Tom King's, to send you a video when it's completed.  Think of it as a gift from me to you.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:56:34 EDT
From:         Rollin Reineck
Subject:      Re: Expedition Funding

> Think of it as a gift from me to you.

I don't accept charity.  I pay my way.

****************************************************************
From Ric

Okay.  Have it your way.  Make the check payable to TIGHAR.  It's tax deductible.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:02:59 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Donations??

Ok, so this may be a bit off-topic, but what the heck.

Rollie said:

>I vehemently object to any one giving you money in
>my name.  I have personally and proudly paid for all my reserch and have
>no intention of contributing one single penny to you personally or
>through some surrogate.

Rollie believes he is too proud to take a gift from TIGHAR but obviously isn't too proud to hang around the table and pick up whatever scraps he can by reading the forum.

Notice how Rollie twists the facts in one short sentence; like a lot of conspiracy buffs, he has trouble keeping the facts straight. TIGHAR, the organization, is soliciting donations, but Rollie turns that around telling Ric he will not give "one single penny to you personally . . . "

Ok, Rollie, don't give a donation to Ric.  Give a donation to TIGHAR.

And Rollie . . . lighten up, dude.  Life is terminal, but it's not serious.

        LTM, who abhors freeloaders
        Dennis McGee #0149CE

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Now, now...let us not be harsh.  This is a free and open forum and we do not begrudge anyone's benefiting from the erudition of our esteemed contributors.

Besides, I'm not sure that it is very respectful for you to refer to a retired USAF colonel as "Rollie."

Love to mother,
Lieutenant Gillespie
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:27:13 EDT
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      Time fix

There might be some Forum members who are wondering why the timing of some of the radio messages are of interest to others.

Some believe that the radio transmissions that Nauru heard.

>.....VKT (radio Nauru) voice heard fairly strong sigs strength to S3
>0843 0854 GMT 48.31 meters speech not interpreted owing bad modulation
>or speaker shouting into microphone but 3S ce similar to that emitted
>from plane in flight last night with exception no hum on plane in back
>ground ...

Came at or near the close of AE/FN's flight ( i.e. fuel exhaustion ) in the morning. Some believe that those transmissions came in the evening, after the aircraft had been down for a few hours.

I keep remembering the last part of the Morganthau transcript of May, 1938.

"... And we have the report of all those wireless messages and everything else, what that woman - happened to her the last few minutes. I hope I've just got to never make it public, I mean.- O.K. - Well, still if she wants it, I'll tell her - I mean what happened. It isn't a very nice story. - Well, yes. There isn't anything additional to something like that....... You ( Gibbons ) know the story, don't you?

"Gibbons:  We have evidence that the thing is all over, sure. Terrible. It would be awful to make it public..."

I haven't seen any official radio messages that even come close to explaining Morganthau's impression of AE's last few minutes. It seems that Mr. Morganthau's statement is in consideration of the next-of-kin. Or Gibbons statement of "evidence" that they have. Then Capt. Safford in his manuscript makes the unfounded statement:

".....the ELECTRA would have been sighted while still afloat , Miss Earhart rescued alive, and Capt. Noonan's body at least recovered....."

Where does Capt. Safford's notion come from that AE survived the crash and Capt. Noonan did not?

It makes me wonder if VKT Radio Nauru is the source for the impressions that Mr. Morganthau, Mr. Gibbons, and Capt. Safford have. How unintelligible was the voice that VKT heard ?

Daryll

******************************************************************
From Ric

We have established beyond any reasonable doubt, from primary source documents,  that Nauru heard the transmissions in question in the evening, not the morning.  Therefore, any conclusion that Safford may have drawn based upon his mistaken belief that the transmissions were heard while the aircraft was still in flight are in error.

As far as anyone knows, Morgenthau's only source of information was Thompson's radio transcripts report and possibly a personal interview with Thompson himself.  We know that Thompson was putting considerable spin on the story to exonerate himself by painting Earhart as incompetent and insisting that she hit the water shortly after her 08:43 transmission.

From what I've seen, if there's a culprit in the Earhart disappearance it's not Moregnthau, or FDR, or Emperor Hirohito.  It's Commander Warner K. Thompson, USCG, commanding officer ITASCA.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:35:03 EDT
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      Re: Time Zone headaches

As for some of the "corruptions" in the message, addressed below, I offer this further comment.  I hope it makes sense and helps more than it hinders.

> 1. The first information came from a radio intercept by the Itasca from
> Radio station KPH (Bolimas Radio, near San Francisco) to the CG radio
> station in San Francisco.  It was received sometime between 2 and 3AM on
> July3 local time (101X GMT time - based upon the raw radio transcripts):
> "NMC de KPF following from VKT (radio Nauru) voice heard fairly strong
> sigs strength to S3 0843 0854 GMT 48.31 meters speech not interpreted owing
> bad modulation or speaker shouting into microphone but 3S ce similar to that
> emitted from plane in flight last night with exception no hum on plane in
> back ground bkt has not yet contacted with NRUI on 500 kcs VIS gives es
> Hearing voice about 1000 GMT.  PSE that to NRUI".
>
> I notice some apparent errors in that paragraph:
> '3S ce' may be acorrupted reception of the word 'voice'.

I agree with this.
"VOICE" is sent as
        "di-di-di-dah/dah-dah-dah/di-dit/dah-di-dah-dit/dit"

        "3S ce" is sent
        "di-di-di-dah-dah/di-di-dit  dah-di-dah-dit/dit"

Actually there is no upper and lower case in morse.  As for the space between 3S and ce, there's no morse character for a "space" either. Spacing is inserted naturally by the operator as he/she perceives the interval between the di-dah groups for individual letters.  What this "3S ce" looks like, to me, is a garble, a mis-copy, or a very tired operator using a hand key and his wrist is starting to lock up on him (been there,done that, got the shirt!).

> 'bkt' may be a corruption of 'VKT'

It may also be a corruption, garble, or poorly sent "prosign" (procedural signal).

Prosigns are made up of two letters, but sent "run-together" as a single character (yes, it makes sense to a morse operator...!)

The prosign for a "break"  (as in a paragraph break) in the message is BT, sent as dah-di-di-di-dah and commonly written down as a "double dash" i.e., "- -" and in the military it is actually written down as "BT", often with a dash drawn above the letters.  Again, a tired operator could easily throw in some extra dits or dahs, to render BT as "bkt".

"bkt" is sent as "dah-di-di-dit/dah-di-dah/dah"

"bkt" could also be a garble of a misused prosign....

Even today, some ham operators use (incorrectly) the prosign BK which means "break in the transmission, listening for your comments" when they really mean to use BT, as in paragraph break.  Could be, this operator was doing the same.

        "BT" is sent "dah-di-di-di-dah"

        "BK" is sent "dah-di-di-di-dah-di-dah"

And the op could have thrown in an extra "dah" so "BK" could have been rendered "dah-di-di-di-dah-di-dah-dah" which equals "bkt"

Remember, most Morse in those days was hand sent.  Also, each operator had a distinctive sending style, or characteristic "fist" on the key.  Someone not used to a particular op's style could easily miscopy a letter or two, especially if the sending (or receiving) operator was tired... which I rather suspect may have been the case!

>As I recall, NRUI1 was Ciprianni but I'm not sure who NRUI2 was. Randy
>(Jacobson), do you know?

NRUI should have been Itasca.  They indeed may have used NRUI1, as primary.  NRUI2 would have been the detachment ashore.

***************************************************************
From Ric

I guess that Mike is attempting to explain how the paraphrasing of the original telegram got screwed up by the ITASCA, but none of this has anything to do with what actually happened on July 2nd.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:03:45 EDT
From:         Rollin Reineck
Subject:      Re: Donations??

I pay for my internet service.  It's not free.

****************************************************************
From Ric

Let me guess. You're referring to Dennis McGee's comment:

>Rollie believes he is too proud to take a gift from TIGHAR but
>obviously isn't too proud to hang around the table and pick up whatever
>scraps he can by reading the forum.

You're absolutely correct.  Webtv is not free.  The Earhart Forum is.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:08:30 EDT
From:         Rollin Reineck
Subject:      Re: Expedition Funding

>> Think of it as a gift from me to you.
>
>I don't accept charity.  I pay my way.
>
>Okay.  Have it your way.  Make the check payable to TIGHAR.  It's tax
>deductible.

It's not worth the asking price.

****************************************************************
From Ric

Think of it as a gift from me to you.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:31:22 EDT
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Reineck

I think it's well past time to let this off-topic subject drop.  The Forum is open to all for the free exchange of questions, ideas, and information. We've seen that it is a tough, but fair crowd whose members encourage each other to express their opinions, yet vigorously challenge everyone to support their postings...but we don't go after anybody who wasn't asking for it.  Mr. Reineck did not want to be included in the current fundraising drive and his message made it clear that he does not want his name associated with TIGHAR in any way.  We should respect his wishes.  To continue berating him in this way is unwarranted, uncouth, and unproductive.  Let's get back to work.

  LTM,
  Russ

*****************************************************************
From Ric

You're right of course.  Let's get back to work.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:39:54 EDT
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Ric 'n Rollie

Ok you two. .. go to your rooms!!!

************************************************
From Ric

Sorry 'bout that.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:42:07 EDT
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Wreck Photo

Off-topic addendum on feathering props.  In the "olden days" (WW II) prop pitch was controlled hydraulically using engine oil.  If one lost the oil - say from flak - pilots had vey little time to hit the Feather Button before the oil was gone & the prop windmilled erratically.  The unlubricated engine can't be stopped and friction heats it until its aluminum components melt & stream back over & thru the aluminum wing onto the rubber & fibre gas tanks inside.  Then BOOM.  I joined the Caterpillar Club just before the Boom in Nov. 1944.

LTM
Bill Moffet  2156
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:36:55 EDT
From:         Dick Polley
Subject:      Ziegler's Buttonwood recollections

Dick was stationed on Gardner during the war.

No, I haven't dropped out of the forum, but I haven't been very vocal in it either. Most of the postings don't interest me. This posting from Ric is very interesting.

Since I left the island in June of 1945 I can't attest to what actually went on after that. I do know, however, that we never had a flat bottom boat on the island and we never had any jeeps. We had a 5X5 truck and a d-6 bull dowser. The boat was about a 20 motor launch and we did have a dock we built into the lagoon. There wasn't any diving helmet or warehouse there either. We also had no recollection of any crashed aircraft there. Only the radio operator from Australia spoke English, as far as I know. Maybe there was one or 2 others but I don't recall.

I have been going thru all my letters that I wrote home while down there and it's surprising how much you have forgotten! I don't feel that I can contribute any more that I have already to the forum. But if there is anything that you want to know about our existence while there, just give a holler.

Dick Polley
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:10:50 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Re: Expedition Funding

Since yesterday (6/8) we have nine more contributors with new pledges totalling $1,100.  They are:

Van Hunn #1459CE
Lonnie Schorer #1376CE (with a $200 donation)

Vern Klein #2124 who says:

I was about to send $100 anyway but I'll gladly accept the video!  The check is in the mail.  About 620 to go... This has to get funded, or there won't be a video!

William Webster-Garman #2243 who says:

Count me in for $100 towards the 1999 expedition: By the way, any word on when the Electra models will be ready? (That's more money for TIGHAR, and something nice for the people who ordered them to look at)

(I expect to receive the final production prototype any day now.  As soon as it's in we'll put photos up on the website. - Ric)

Arthur Carty who says:

OK, I  give up.  Sign me up for $200.00 (although, I don't know what I'll do with my free time if something conclusive is actually found). LTM LCDR Carty (see, I outrank you!)

(Aye, aye, sir! - Ric)

Shirley Walter who says:

I too, have been a forum member for awhile, but feel inadequite most of the time, to make too many observations.  I do have some questions which I will pose in the near future.

BUT, for now I want to make my pledge for 100.00 for the trip and will have a check in the mail immediately.  I will also be sending in my membership application as well as an order for at least one T-shirt - maybe more.  Can't make up my mind which I would like first.

I only wish I could make it a larger donation, or even better, one large enough to qualify for the trip itself.  I have done a little exploring (searching) in FL and the Earhart mystery has been a fascination of mine for many years.  I am so glad that I was able to find this forum.  I have learned much already and hope to contribute to the brainstorming  in the near future.

Jon Greenberg #2047

OK Ric, the check's in the mail.

Natko Katicic who says

I would like to use this oportunity to become a member and order a video

Bill Moffet #2156

Your appeal has touched my heart,  er,  wallet.  Check for $100 is in the mail.  I look fwd to the Niku video.

That brings the total contributors to 21 and the total pledged to $2,500.

Our $50,000 shortfall is now a $47,500 shortfall.  There are still 601 forum subscribers out there we haven't heard from yet.

The honor roll so far is:

Terry Linley #2297
Phil Tanner #2276
Tom King #0391CEB ($300)
Tom Abran #2296
Peter Boor #0856C
Jim Tierney #0821
Mark Cameron
Dean Andrea #2056
Dave Eberle #0921
Dennis McGee #0149CE
Darrell Houghton #2188
Dave Morris
Van Hunn #1459CE
Lonnie Schorer #1376CE ($200)
Vern Klein #2124
William Webster-Garman #2243
Arthur Carty  ($200)
Shirley Walter
Jon Greenberg #2047
Natko Katicic
Bill Moffet #2156

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:16:22 EDT
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Gallagher in Ireland

Update on Gerald's sojourn in Co. Kilkenny:  As you know the County Library there referred me to the Kilkenny Archaeological Society.  Just received 2 letters from Mr. John Kirwan there who advises Mr. G. Butler was the father of the late Hubert Butler and also of Gilbert Butler who is still alive. Inquiry of the latter recalls only that G. subsequently got a job in the 'Far East'.  Gilbert B. "began taking farm pupils in 1935" and G. was referred to him thru Mrs. Solly-Flood (who died just short of 100 years of age in 1988).  She was a "noted gardener" & may have known the G's thru a gardening association.  Mr Kirwan has contacted Mrs. S-F's grandson who replied he has no knowledge of the G. family, but has contacted a Mr. Sean Ryan who "farms at Bonnybrook and is interested in the past.  He's worth a go."

I'm sending you photocopies of the correspondence.  Don't hold your breath until we find a Gallagher/Clancy with Gerald's papers & photos via this approach --but it's fun trying!  Looks to me like Deirdre C. is a more likely avenue.  Stay tuned.

All the best, and
LTM
Bill Moffet  #2156

**************************************************************
From Ric

That's progress.  It just seems so odd that Gerald would leave medical school to become a "farm pupil." There is more to this story.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:25:40 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Gear up landing revisited.

We have probably killed this horse more than a dozen times but on more point for the gear down landing in the Lockheed came to mind.  Airplanes as large as the Lockheed 10 seldom flip over when landing gear down on an unimproved surface.  The most common effect is to shear off the gear but the mass of an airplane this size usually keeps it right side (the clean side) up.

****************************************************************
From Ric

If I had to make a landing on an "unimproved" surface, it's hard to think of a  machine more likely to stay clean side up than a Lockheed 10.  Big fat tires, short nose,  good prop clearance in three point attitude, immensely strong main gear legs, and less than spectacular brakes.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:50:54 EDT
From:         Angelo
Subject:      Re: Time Zone headaches

>The message as it appears in Thompson's report is actually a paraphasing of
>the original telegram sent to the Secretary of State. You're struggling to
>...
>The original telegram  (on file at the National Archives) reads:
>...
>Amalgamated Wireless state information received that report from Peru
>(corrected to "Nauru") was sent to Bolinas radio "at 6.31, 6.43 and 6.54 p.m.
>Sydney time today on 48.31 meters, fairly strong signals, speech not
>...

We have it, then, that Thompson omitted, intentionally or not, the GMT after 6:54? Is Safford's Exhibit #78 reiteration of that accurate?

Also, the quotation is already second-hand ("hearsay"), being first transmitted by NAURU to Bolinas, intercepted by Amalgamated, re-quoted by Amalgamated (hearsay#1) received by Sydney, re transmitted by Sydney to Washington (hearsay#2), then quoted by Thompson (hearsay#3). The Itasca log is at the same level as Hearsay#1 or #2 depending on the accuracy of the Bolinas transmission to the CG station. If the was the actual telegram en route, it may be hard to call t hearsay. But if it was not, it could have been 'informational' (i.e. hearsay). Did Thompson mis-quote? He surely had the Itasca log to work with at the time.

It seems prudent for TIGHAR to get hearsay level down to #0 (Nauru log). If not now, then later.

Ang.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

>We have it, then, that Thompson omitted, intentionally or not, the GMT
>after 6:54? Is Safford's Exhibit #78 reiteration of that accurate?

There is no GMT after 6.54 in the original telegram.   It specifically says "p.m. Sydney time today."  I don't have Safford's Exhibit #78.  The copy of his manuscript that I have was revised 23 June 1971 and has no exhibits.

The original telegram received by the State Department was from "Doyle" in Sydney (U.S. Ambassador maybe?), reporting what Amalgamated Wireless got from Bolinas Radio (where, I wonder, is Bolinas?) who got the report directly from Nauru.  That looks to me like 4 degrees of separation -1. Nauru to Bolinas, 2. Bolinas to Amalgamated, 3. Almagamated to "Sydney", and 4. "Sydney" to Washington.  That's probably the best we're going to get. I very much doubt that logs still exist for any of the other sources.

The message that appears in Thompson's transcript is at least two more degrees of separation away - 5. Washington to USCG San Francisco, and 6. USCG San Francisco to ITASCA.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:10:38 EDT
From:         Terry Ann Linley
Subject:      Real scientists

With all sniping aside, and all due respect to Lieutenant Gillespie and Colonel Reineck....there is inherent value in knowing the opinions of all the investigators of Amelia Earhart's disappearance, as in all basic research. Real scientists share their data and co-operate with each other to get to the truth, even if they sometimes have to just agree to disagree, and one or more are eventually proven wrong.

It doesn't matter who views the AE Forum, or who pays for what Internet service, or who eventually discovers the truth.  What DOES matter is that we (separately or collectively) solve the mystery once and for all.  I'd love to be there when it happens.

Terry

***************************************************************
From Ric

I agree completely.

One quick clarification.  I cheerfully relinquished my rank of Lieutenant in 1973.  My current title is Admiral of the Ocean Sea (but I still need a good hat).
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:07:17 EDT
From:         David Morris
Subject:      Re: Reineck

Mr. Matthews,

Mr Reineck indeed is entitled to his opinion, but his post was not a simple rejection to contribute.  It was an unprofessional, whining reply without good taste or good intention.  Defending such poor behavior merely adds soul to an issue better left to waste away in contempt.

David Morris
VPP Magazine

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Before Russ jumps on this let me say that I'm quite sure that he wasn't in any way trying to defend Reineck.

From time to time we've had various similar characters appear and disappear on the forum.  It's always hard to know how to deal with them and in the past we've sometimes let them distract us from our mission.  I tend to want to play "Hawkeye Pierce" to their "Major Frank Burns" but that's just because they're such easy targets.  Don Jordan is right. It's childish (but it's fun).  I shouldn't do it.

I think Russ was just urging us to disengage. "Waste away in contempt" - good phrase.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:10:45 EDT
From:         David Morris
Subject:      Re: Donations??

Goodness Rollin,

I have been on this forum for an entire 48 hours and already can sense that you enjoy the publicity generated by your tiny remarks and up-in-arms wounded-animal routine.  People may have been attempting to flesh out your more human side, and offer you an olive branch, but perhaps they were merely waiting for the display they seemed to have received from you.  Either way, I am certain the bitterness does no one a bit of good.

You may be an expert, I don't really know who you are forgive me, I am new here (and now open to attack), but would it not be more professional of you to simply decline the offer, even if it may have been issued with implications?  I dare say, to any respectable researcher/historian, yes.

So in that vein, I suggest cautiously, and with an outstretched hand, be a gentleman, otherwise be absent from the forum and concoct in the peace and solitude of your own mind.

Thank you for any consideration you may attempt in this regard

David Morris
VPP Magazine
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:41:45 EDT
From:         Bob Perry
Subject:      Bolinas

Ric wrote:

>Bolinas Radio (where, I wonder, is Bolinas?)

Bolinas is a small town on the Pacific north of the Golden Gate Bridge (San Francisco). It is at the southern tip of what becomes the Point Reyes National  Seashore.

LTM,

Bob
*****************************************************************
From Cam Warren

Bolinas is just north of San Francisco.  Radio Bolinas was a commercial short-wave station, owned and operated by RCA Radio, I recall.   And I'm working on the GCT/GMT question, and hope to have a bullet-proof explanation soon.

(Conventional wisdom says GCT/GMT are/were the same - but Safford should know, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise).

*****************************************************************

From Ric

Did I miss something or didn't we just go through a whole exercise that proved Safford wrong about GCT/GMT?

If Bolinas Radio is in California then it would appear, strange as it seems, that the message went Nauru to Bolinas to Amalgamated (wherever they were) to Sydney, Australia to Washington.

LTM,
ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:22:01 EDT
From:         Gary Cratt
Subject:      Nikumaroro search

I have been reading the forum since its inception, but this my first posting.

Considering the total surface area of Nikumaroro, there is a lot, but finite amount of ground to cover. However, there are certain areas of the island that dont need to be searched because they were either inhabited at the time of AE's disappearance (and consequently an L10 crashing through the jungle would have been noticed), or have subsequently been inhabited ( and then demolished) like the old Loran station.

What might help in deducing all places that should be searched, is to eliminate all those that need not. It would also help those who cannot physically participate in the search become more invloved.

I can visualise a map of the island broken down into numbered grids, each of (physically) manageable area. Some could be eliminated, others requiring research to discover what activity if any has ever been conducted in that area.

Laxton's 1951 article goes into some detail regarding the location of various coconut groves, houses, etc, Those who worked at the Loran station can tell us how far they inhabited the island. Your previous expeditions have searched specific areas

Perhaps this is a task that is worthy of specific effort by us forum readers. Do you know of a detailed map that is already available, onto which I could superimpose a grid ??

In 1975 I was part of a small group of people searching for a historic aircraft missing in a desert in the Australian outback for 50 years. After 3 expeditions we finally found it, and despite all the anecdotal accounts of people who "knew" where the wreckage was, it was actually miles away.

We found it by carefully researching all the "old" accounts, diaries, documents and records, and virtually ignoring all the modern day cowboys who knew where the wreckage was (and boasted they had coffee next to it once a week), and performing a detailed grid search using a Bell 47 (low and slow). We found the wreckage during our last hour of Avgas.

Now I've said my $100 worth, so here's my credit card for your $100 worth.(sent to your private email address)

Garry Cratt
2141

****************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks Garry.

We've actually done something quite similar to what you suggest, but we've found that there are some pitfalls in that method.  Most important is to not make assumptions about what someone else "would have", "should have" or "must have" done, seen or heard.

No part of Nikumaroro was inhabited at the time of the Earhart disappearance so the airplane could have ended up anywhere on the island and go unnoticed at the time because there was no one there to notice it.

We can eliminate the village area as the wreck site, not because we assume that someone "would have" commented on an airplane wreck being in the middle of the bloody village, but because WE have tromped all through that area and there ain't no airplane wreck there (some pieces of airplane yes, but wreck no).  We have similarly eliminated other portions of the island because we have examined the ground ourselves.  The former site of the Loran station is now an impossibly dense tangle of vegetation.  We haven't searched for the wreck there because we have photography and official records which show that the whole place was bulldozed flat in 1944.  Seems pretty safe to conclude that the wreck isn't there now.

We had previously considered the western end of the island (Nutiran district) to be highly unlikely because it was the site of a detailed survey by New Zealanders in 1939, but now anecdotal accounts suggest that we should look there - so we will.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:27:18 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Gothic Malvern

Phil felt a gothic ambiance about Malvern.  Perhaps not surprising in a town that has existed for over 900 years and with some of the ancient stuff still around.

Some time back, I noticed an item in the Malvern Gazette indicating the City Council had approved, or was about to approve, construction of a McDonald's. No doubt it will have Golden Gothic Arches.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:29:20 EDT
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Re: Reineck

Ric wrote:

>let me say that I'm quite sure that [Russ] wasn't in any way trying to
>defend Reineck.

Boy, you've got that right.

As Ric also says, over the past few months we have dealt with many characters on this Forum and it has been one of my great pleasures to watch them sputter in the face of rational inquiry.

The difference in those cases was that they revolved around specific issues or claims raised by certain individuals and then debated (sometimes fiercely) among the membership.  That's not what happened here.  We started it by making Mr. Reineck an offer and he turned it down.  While he might have phrased his response in a more civil tone, the guy has a right to say "no." The matter should have ended there, but it didn't.  What followed, fun as it may have been, struck me as nothing more than "Rollie-baiting."

Don't let it bother you if he won't have anything to do with TIGHAR.  We just need to put our heads down and proceed with the work at hand.  Someday the Earhart mystery will finally be solved and it will come as no great surprise that (as requested) Rollin Reineck won't have anything to do with it.

LTM,
Russ
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:39:34 EDT
From:         Bethpage
Subject:      GCT = GMT

This caveat is printed on the cover of "The American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac" for 1925:

NOTICE.

In the volumes of the "American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac" and the "American Nautical Almanac," beginning with those for 1925, the hours of the day are counted from midnight to midnight instead of from noon to noon as was done in the volumes before 1925, and the time is designated Civil Time instead of Mean Time.

By this change each day begins twelve hours earlier than formerly; i.e. January 1.0, 1925, in the volume for 1925, is the same as December 31.5, 1924, in the volume for 1924.

***************************************************************
From Ric

Yeah, well, you'd think that would, uh, pretty well settle it, wouldn't you? I mean, like, if we can't say that we've established that in 1937 the terms GCT and GMT were synonymous, what can we say?

Safford had it screwed up and the conclusions he drew from his mistaken impression of when certain events occurred are, therefore, invalid.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:22:48 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Donation report

Since yesterday (6/9) we have 7 new contributors

Dick Pingrey #0908C

Dave Porter #2288

Michelle Blankenship #2093

Janet Powell #2225 who says:
Put me down for $100.00 for this summer's expedition, (after all - I'm so broke what's another addition to the overdraft???)

Gary Cratt #2141

Bruce Yoho #2036E

Jim Dix #2132

That brings to 28 the total number of forum subscribers who will receive a video of this summer's field work, and be honored in the credits, and may just be among those who made possible the expedition that finally solved the Earhart mystery.  A hundred bucks for a shot at immortality and a video to boot.  Where can you get a better deal than that?

This list so far:

Terry Linley #2297
Phil Tanner #2276
Tom King #0391CEB ($300)
Tom Abran #2296
Peter Boor #0856C
Jim Tierney #0821
Mark Cameron
Dean Andrea #2056
Dave Eberle #0921
Dennis McGee #0149CE
Darrell Houghton #2188
Dave Morris
Van Hunn #1459CE
Lonnie Schorer #1376CE ($200)
Vern Klein #2124
William Webster-Garman #2243
Arthur Carty  ($200)
Shirley Walter
Jon Greenberg #2047
Natko Katicic
Bill Moffet #2156
Dick Pingrey #0908C
Dave Porter #2288
Michelle Blankenship #2093
Janet Powell #2225
Gary Cratt #2141
Bruce Yoho #2036E
Jim Dix #2132


LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:33:20 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Nauru untangled

Bolinas is in Marin County, CA, maybe 20 miles north of San Francisco, on the coast.  It's got some interesting archeology.

LTM
Tom King
***************************************************************
From Randy Jacobson 1364

Here is my best guess/knowledge of the transmission.  Nauru and Bolinas (south of San Francisco) are both Amalgamated Wireless stations.  It went from Nauru onto the AW network (received at both Sydney and Bolinas - accounting for the short transmission delay), and intercepted by the Itasca and reported in Thompson's Rado Transcripts.  Any errors in copying this message are likely from the Itasca.  Bolinas then sent it directly to CGSF, then out back to Itasca.  Sydney sent a cable to Washington DC.  Thompson's report is likely the most reliable and first-hand reporting.  It did not show up in the raw radio logs as text, only as a reference to the message.

****************************************************************
From Ric

Close, but no cigar.  Do you KNOW that Bolinas was an Amalgamated Wireless station or is that a guess?

Cam Warren says that "Amalgamated Wireless was an Australian commercial operation with stations in New Guinea (Bulolo, Salamaua, etc.) and various other places where the Aussie's were."

Let's see if we can really figure this out.  I think we can all agree that the message originates in Nauru.  Yes?  And that Nauru's original message was sent to Bolinas Radio (in California).  It makes sense that they would send the info to an American station.  Nauru (call letters VKT) probably had no contact with U.S. government or military stations.  Why would they? Bolinas (call letters KPH), a commercial station, may have been the only American station they had a frequency and schedule for.

***It's important to note that we don't have the original message from Nauru to Bolinas. What we have are two independent reports of what that missing message said.***

The first is a telegram to the State Department reporting what Amalgamated Wireless says Nauru told Bolinas. (It appears that Amalgamated overheard/intercepted the transmission.)  That telegram said:

"Amalgamated Wireless state information received that report from Nauru was
sent to Bolinas radio "at 6.31, 6.43 and 6.54 p.m. Sydney time today on 48.31
meters, fairly strong signals, speech not intelligible, no hum of plane in
background but voice similar that emitted from plane in flight last night
between 4.30 and 9.30 p.m.

"Message from plane when at least 60 miles south of Nauru received 8.30 p.m.,
Sydney time, July second saying "a ship in sight ahead".  since identified as
steamer MYRTLEBANK which arrived Nauru daybreak today.  Continuous watch
being maintained by Nauru radio and Suva radio.
Doyle"

The second is a message from Bolinas to Coast Guard headquarters in San Francisco (call letters NMC) reporting what they were told by Nauru.  This is the message that Itasca overheard/intercepted. ITASCA copied the message as:

"NMC de KPF following from VKT (radio Nauru) voice heard fairly strong sigs
strength to S3 0843 0854 GMT 48.31 meters speech not interpreted owing bad
modulation or speaker shouting into microphone but 3S ce similar to that
emitted from plane in flight last night with exception no hum on plane in
back ground bkt has not yet contacted with NRUI on 500 kcs VIS gives es
Hearing voice about 1000 GMT.  PSE that to NRUI"

Oddly, each version contains details missing in the other but in no respect do they contradict each other.  What we're left with are separate but mutually supportive accounts of what must be considered one of the more credible of the possible post-loss transmissions from NR16020.

The comment that the speaker may have been shouting into the microphone is especially poignant given this passage from Eric Chater's letter describing preparations in Lae:

"Our wireless operator reports:
'The condition of radio equipment of Earhart's plane is as follows -
transmitter carrier wave on 6210 kc was very rough and I advised Miss Earhart to pitch her voice higher to overcome distortion caused by rough carrier wave, otherwise transmitter seemed to be working satisfactorily.'"

If that doesn't make the hair on the back of your neck stand up you're tougher than I am.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:29:32 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Tip for fund raising

I noticed that Tighar claims a membership of more than 1,000 but we have used at least 2,288 (Dave Porter) membership numbers.

Why not offer the "retired" (former membership numbers) numbers for sale to the highest bidder.  Anyone that would like a highly coveted low Tighar membership number can cough up a hundred bucks or so and take his or her pick from your list of "retired" numbers.  Kind of like vanity plates for your car.

I know you and Pat have numbers 0001 and 0002, respectively, so I'll put a bid in for 0003 and sell my existing number (0149) to someone else.  (With a little time and luck we could even get a futures market going on these things!)

Whadda ya say, big guy?

        LTM, who loves a bargain
        Dennis McGee #0149CE

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Cool concept!  But first - we don't have over 1,000 members.  We're presently at about 750.  Second, Pat and I do not have member numbers.  We're just lowly employees.

Now, hold onto your wallet.  Believe it or not, of the first 7 TIGHAR member numbers (0001 through 0007) only 0003 is taken.   We'll make each of those available - first come first served (by date of email) -  to a new member or a current member in appreciation of a $1,000 donation.

Of numbers from 0010 to 0100, only those shown below are presently taken. Any other number in the first hundred is available in appreciation for a donation of $200. Again first come first served (by date of email). Presently active are:

0028
0034
0041
0042
0047
0048
0053
0058
0069
0071
0072
0075
0084
0085

For numbers above 0100, let us know if you have a special number in mind (a lucky number, your birthday, whatever) up to 2300 and we'll give it to you (if it's available) in appreciation of a $100 donation.

And no Dennis, we will not sell you a bunch of numbers for your "futures market."

The antique TIGHAR member number sale is now open for business.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:09:57 EDT
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Titles

Ric wrote:

> My current title is Admiral of the Ocean Sea (but I still need
> a good hat).

Ric, since you're so involved in aviation issues, I think one of those little kid's caps with the propeller on the top would do just fine (for both of us, actually).

Thomas Van Hare
aka The Ambassador to the
  Empty Quarter (Rubh al Khali)

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Ooooh.  Good title.  I like it.

For a hat I was thinking of something more Horatio Hornblowerish.  We'll be at sea for three weeks and I can't very well shout stuff like "Rudder amidships!" and "Steady as she goes!" in a beanie with a propeller on top. (On the other hand, I guess I could.  As Pat says, "Just as many people would pay attention to you.")
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:59:27 EDT
From:         Dave Morris
Subject:      Questions

I am on the verge of mortification at sending out this message, but as I have said, I am so new to this forum, so new to my discovered interest (and lack of knowledge about) in Ms. Earhart, that I need to pose a question concerning a book I have been reading, or I should say books.

First, I must tell you that I have not read the bios of her, as I do not know which to choose as most accurate.  Which of course led me to read a work of fiction entitled "I Was Amelia Earhart" by Jane Mendelsohn.  I must say the language was descriptive and lovely, but she did something to Earhart and Noonan that I am confused about.  She turns these two into arguing, unfriendly, unsympathetic enemies, both of each other, there partners, and themselves.  Now my question is, has Ms. Mendelsohn based this character study on details from a factual Bio that I have as yet not read?  Or is this her own interpretation, or alteration on Ms. Earhart's final days?  I regret such a silly question, based upon a fictitious story, I was just wondering if it had any basis.  I hope not.

My second book deals with the disappearance after leaving Lae (what is the proper pronunciation of that city please---lay eee, lay, or lie?) New Guinea.  It has a cover not unlike Unsolved Mysteries with its overzealousness in claims, but when I saw a few of the endorsements or recommendations from Chuck Yeager, Patty Wagstaff, and Doris Rich (her bio I have not read yet) I began to wonder if I should overlook the corny title, Amelia Earhart-Case Closed?, and read it anyway.  It is authored by  Roessler and Gomez.  I am embarrassed because I do not know if this is a ridiculous money grabber, or if it contains interesting details, which I must say it does, though the veracity of them, I cannot discern yet.

I completed The Last Flight shortly before buying these other selections, and
joining the forum.  I may be way off base, and childish in my gossipy wish to
find out new details, but I will throw myself before you to tell me how far I
have gone astray.  Needless to say, the fiction work, I am aware is just
that.  Though the basis for it is a question to me.

Forgive me for this long rant.  As for Mr. Reinick, I am glad my point has been made.  Now with my foolish literary choices my reputation my have simply careened into nothing and he may be able to point to this as reason to ignore my suggestion about professionalism.  If he is of great mind, then I think it sad that he cannot work together to find out the truth.  I myself find it odd, these Japanese conspiracies.  Use what you have, or don't take it at all.  That is the first law in hostage/kidnapping.  The Japanese did not do this to the nth degree from what I can glean so far.  But that is simply my uneducated, unrespected opinion.

Thank You for any information you can lend me about Lae, and the books.  I will try to read more of the archived articles at the Earhart Project site to catch up.  I am dismally behind schedule in that respect.

Dave Morris

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Good sir, be thou not mortified.  Neither needest thou writhe in anguish nor rend thy garments for want of knowledge.  All here wallow in wretched ignorance - none more than my humble self.  I will tell thee what I can.

If you have read "I Was Amelia Earhart" you have already survived what is certainly the silliest book ever written on the subject, not to mention a formidable assault on the English language.  I'll probably never live down the credit Mendelsohn gives me at the end of the book (the article I wrote for LIFE magazine in 1992 supposedly inspired her).

Of course, none of us can know for sure how AE and Fred got along, but the clues we have suggest a mutual respect and admiration that grew during the world flight.  In Earhart's early notes of the trip she refers to him as "Freddie" (edited to "Fred" in Last Flight) but she soon drops the diminutive and refers to him as Fred.  She is openly complementary of his navigational skill and he writes home to his new bride of how impressed he is with Amelia's ability to "take hardship as well as any man and work like one." They sometimes go sight-seeing together but Amelia usually keeps to herself and takes her meals in the hotel rooms while Fred tends to be out and about more.  Contrary to legend, there is no contemporaneous account of him taking a drink during the entire trip.  Photos taken during the trip seem to suggest that Fred took a very active hand in overseeing maintenance to the Electra. I have seen nothing to indicate that they quarreled, and the notion that they were romantically involved is ludicrous.

Lae is pronounced LAYee.  There is no truth to the rumor that during  WWII it was a noted center of prostitution, hence the term "to get Laed."

"Amelia Earhart-Case Closed?" is not a ridiculous money grabber.  It's simply ridiculous. The authors have their facts hopelessly scrambled and their conclusions are unfounded. The celebrity endorsements are a hoot.  I especially like Chuck Yeager's "...factual and very good.  It contained all qualitative data." (Data are, by definition, quantitative.)  The authors' attack on TIGHAR at the end of the book is utterly untrue and possibly actionable.  In other words, it's a little worse than average for an Earhart book.

I wouldn't worry about Reineck.  I think he has given us adequate evidence of the quality of his mind.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:42:35 EDT
From:         Clyde Miller
Subject:      Earhart Festival

The city of Atchison, Kansas will be holding their (Amelia Earhart Festival) July 23-24.  Look forward to aviation related bands like Joan Jett, The Marshall Tucker Band and Back Alley.  Fireworks set to music over the Missouri river.  Arts & Crafts, live entertainment featuring Roger Landes and Connie Dover, games and carnival.  At the Speaker's Symposium Linda Finch and Moya Lear are featured.  (800)234-1854 or www.atchison.org. Posters feature Amelia in a leather flying cap and her mysterious smile.

Clyde Miller

*****************************************************************
From Ric

About that time we'll be finishing up our own Amelia Earhart Festival in the Pacific.  I wonder which will turn out to be more meaningful?
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:48:40 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Titles

This is about as off-topic as it can be, but the guy who thinks he really IS the US Ambassador to the Empty Quarter (Rubh al Khali), and the rest of Saudi Arabia, former Georgia Senator Wyche Fowler, is a great friend of archeology and historic preservation; did a lot for both when he was in the Senate. Now, if there were some way for Earhart to have gotten captured by Beduins....

Tom King
# whatever
****************************************************************
From William Webster-Garman 2243

Ric, in my humble opinion, all you really need to do is nail the line, "Avast there ye landlubbers, [insert specific command/whim here]".

william #2243
ltnt. cmdr., brentwood sea
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:08:40 EDT
From:         Dave Morris
Subject:      Book reviews

I have since located several scathing reviews on the rubbish I have purchased.  Let me get this in before the barrage of embarrassment lures me further astray.  Sorry to have wasted my typing with these books.  I have come to those conclusions independently, the most harsh one for that I Was Amelia book.  I was simply worried that somehow she, Mendelsohn, might have some basis for making her 'character's out to be bastard, soap opera stars on location!

Dave M

*****************************************************************
From Dave Porter

Ric,

I must say I'm mildly disappointed to see Yeager endorsing a book full of nonsense.  I always had the impression that he was a pretty squared away kind of guy.  (admittedly my only basis for this impression is reading "The Right Stuff")  If turned from the dark side, he could be a powerful ally??

LTM (lightsabers to mother), Dave Porter, 2288

****************************************************************
From Ric

Think about it for a second.  How could anyone, who was not himself an Earhart expert, objectively assess the merits of a book like that?   All of those endorsements come down to "these seem like nice guys and I assume that what they wrote is okay."  Yeager may be the world's greatest pilot (just ask him), but he would never describe himself as a scientist, much less a trained historical investigator.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:46:09 EDT
From:         Angelo
Subject:      Re: GCT = GMT

>...if we can't say that we've established that in 1937 the terms
>GCT and GMT were synonymous, what can we say?

Not quite.

If I interpret that Almanac NOTICE correctly, starting the hours of the day at noon makes the hour before noon to be the 23rd hour of the previous day. My understanding of medieval timings (correct me if I am wrong!) is that the first hour of the day started at sunrise, and the 23rd hour so numbered was also the last hour of darkness.

Whereas GCT noon at the international date line would have it to be the same day either side of the 180th meridian, GMT has it that it is different days either side of the 180th meridian at noon there.

We still have to define the syntax of the phrase "and the time is designated Civil Time instead of Mean Time".

Does this mean that previous to 1925, the noon zero hour standard was "Mean Time". Then in 1925 the Midnight zero-hour standard became "Civil Time", or was it vice-versa. Since the word "is" is used, that's what I technically infer. In that case, "GMT" in 1937 and today would be incorrect except that via common usage, the term GMT emerged and was identical to new GCT. If on the other hand they really meant that GCT was the noon zero-hour while GMT was the Midnight zero hour, then....

I, Ang.C., under this 1925+ paradigm would STAND IN ERROR in ever citing GCT at all in these many AE messages. Here, all time references should be GMT, sometime later also termed Universal time (UT).

Perhaps a more apt description of what went on circa 1925 is: Previous to 1925 "Mean Time" was used with a noon zero-hour. The term, "Greenwich", was never used.

Then the 1925 Almanac defined the standard that the zero-hour is shifted back to midnight, and coined the new term "Civil Time" for it. Sometime later, the prefix "Greenwich" was added forming GCT. Sometime later still a GCT-GMT correspondence became common practice. By 1937, one would hope that all reference to noon zero-hour would have been dead, but perhaps the terms GCT and GMT co-existed.

>Safford had it screwed up and the conclusions he drew from his mistaken
>impression of when certain events occurred are, therefore, invalid.

Is it worth positively identifying his explicit faults of logic, item by item?

Ang.

**************************************************************
From Ric

No.  I'm not interested in kibitzing the late Capt. Safford.  The next thing we need to do is find the physical evidence that proves our hypothesis.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:53:21 EDT
From:         Terry Linley
Subject:      Re: Tip for fund raising

Okay, Ric, since I started this $100 challenge, and since the "bone team" arrives in Fiji on my birthday (06/28), dare I ask to be reassigned number 0628, providing, of course, that it is not already taken?  It will no doubt turn out to be my lucky number, and easy to remember.  Thank you!

LTM,
Ter

****************************************************************
From Ric

A fair reward for services rendered.  So ordered.

I'll also take this opportunity to announce that TIGHAR #0001 has been acquired by a long-time TIGHAR member and supporter who wishes to remain anonymous.

Seems entirely appropriate that the most senior member number of an organization so focused on mystery should be held by a mystery person.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:03:54 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Earhart festival

>The city of Atchinson, Kansas will be
>holding their (Amelia Earhart Festival) July 23-24.

No doubt it will be a mega-affair.  The latest rumor is that the Confederate Air Force will also be there.  In keeping with its long history of good taste, the CAF is planning a recreation of AE's and FN's ditching into the sea.  Because there are no L-10s publicly available, the CAF is using an old Beech 18.  The plane will be piloted by remote control and loaded with "high-visibility pyrotechnic devises."

There is no Pacific Ocean nearby, so the CAF crew is flooding a local corn field with water from the Cherokee River.

The plan is to take off from Topeka and fly the aircraft to Atchinson and crash it into the recently created "Pacific Ocean."  The explosion and ensuing fireball should be visible for miles around.

All in all, it sounds like a real good time.

By the way is TIGHAR going to have a booth there?  Somebody has to tell these guys that AE and FN landed on Niku, not crashed into the sea!

        LTM, a former demolitions expert
        Dennis McGee #0149CE

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Dennis, please tell me that this is yet another product of your fertile and mischievous imagination.

No, there will be no TIGHAR booth in Atcheson.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:06:38 EDT
From:         Cam Warren
Subject:      BOOKS & YEAGER

Attention Dave Morris, & other Earhart tyros -

There a dozens of AE books out there, ranging from flat terrible to quite good.  But my personal recommendation is "My Courageous Sister" by Morrissey and Osborne (mostly the latter).  It may not be flawless, but it is a quick and easy read, well researched and contains photo copies of lots and lots of pertinent documents that you won't find elsewhere. A very good  investment for the beginning researcher, it'll quickly bring you up to speed on the basic questions.

Re Yeager, to whom I've talked a couple of times.  He was a frequent guest at the Odlum's ranch near Palm Springs.  (Note that Jackie Cochran, the lady pilot, was AE's close friend and confidant, and was Mrs. Odlum).  In answer to my query as to any Earhart discussions, the General said curtly : "The subject was never discussed".  End conversation.

Cam Warren
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:29:31 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Earhart festival

Yeah, just a little humor(?).  I hope our CAF fans aren't too offended, but the opportunity was there, and . . well, what the heck.

        LTM, a CAF fan, most of the time
        Dennis McGee #0149CE

****************************************************************
From Ric

Whew!  You had me worried there for a minute.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:37:31 EDT
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      GCT=GMT

Did you really mean that this is what you understood the bethpage89 posting meant??

>From Ric
>Yeah, well, you'd think that would, uh, pretty well settle it, wouldn't
>you? I mean, like, if we can't say that we've established that in 1937
>the terms GCT and GMT were synonymous, what can we say?
>
>Safford had it screwed up and the conclusions he drew from his
>mistaken impression of when certain events ocurred are, therefore,
>invalid.

You believe GCT =  GMT from the bethpage89 posting ??

I would like to try translating the bethpage89 posting into English.

>From bethpage89
>This caveat is printed on the cover of "The American Ephemeris and
>Nautical Almanac" for 1925:

This is a warning notice on the front cover to anyone using these volumes. That a change has taken place in 1925.

>NOTICE.
>In the volumes of the "American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac" and the
>"American Nautical Almanac," beginning with those for 1925, the hours of
>the day are counted from midnight to midnight instead of from noon to
>noon as was done in the volumes before 1925, and the time is designated
>Civil Time instead of Mean Time.>

Before 1925 it was apparently called GMT ( " designated Civil Time [ INSTEAD ] of Mean Time").  The celestial timing mark, the SUN, was starting the day at noon. I think if I presume correctly that the timing mark on the earth was 0 deg, Greenwich England. BUT somebody for some reason wanted the day to start at midnight in Greenwich England ( maybe so there wasn't a date change, theoretically, in the middle of a business, Bank of England?, day ). What they did was to move the celestial timing mark to the other side of the Earth to the180 deg. meridian ( date line, Pacific Ocean) because there is no celestial timing mark at midnight.  That was easy enough to do, but now there was a 12 hour difference.

>By this change each day begins twelve hours earlier than formerly;
>i.e. January 1.0, 1925, in the volume for 1925, is the same as December
>31.5, 1924, in the volume for 1924.

Now there is a problem, what if some people want to do it and others don't. How do you designate the difference while people are making the change? The 1925 volume and after the notation to use was GCT. If using the volumes BEFORE 1925 you would have to covert GMT to GCT using 12 in the formula.

I interpret the bethpage89 posting as GCT is NOT equal to GMT. I realize GMT is still in our vocabulary, but I'm just trying to interpret the posting.

Daryll

*****************************************************************
From Ric

This is ridiculous.

The notice referenced may be poorly worded but Bowditch "The American Practical Navigator (1938 edition) and a half dozen other sources quoted by various forum subscribers establish beyond any doubt that in 1937 GCT and GMT were interchangeable.  Can we please move on?
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:44:03 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Bolinas

I am traveling, and don't have access to all my notes.  North, South, I was close.  Ric: please check the Bolinas radio station ownership on the Research CD listing of call signs: I believe  I put in who ran Bolinas...it may well be Radio Corporation ofAmerica Wireless or something similar.  The various radio companies had overseas partners...

*****************************************************************
From Ric

According to the Research CD, Bolinas radio was run by RadioMarine Corporation of America (RMCA).
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:01:50 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Donation report 6/11

Our newest contributors and future video recipients are:

George Kastner #0862

Bob Perry #2021

Don Iwanski #2281

Thomas Van Hare #2252

Mark White #2129

John Clauss #0142CE

That brings us to 34 contributors who have pledged a total of $3,700.  In addition, we've had one new member purchase a custom member number with a $100 donation and TIGHAR number 0001 has brought in a $1,000 pledge.  That's a total of $4,800 raised, reducing our $50,000 shortfall to $45,200.

But time is getting tight.  Nai'a won't sail on July 5th unless the charter is paid for.  We need some more heros to join these:

Terry Linley #2297
Phil Tanner #2276
Tom King #0391CEB ($300)
Tom Abran #2296
Peter Boor #0856C
Jim Tierney #0821
Mark Cameron
Dean Andrea #2056
Dave Eberle #0921
Dennis McGee #0149CE
Darrell Houghton #2188
Dave Morris
Van Hunn #1459CE
Lonnie Schorer #1376CE ($200)
Vern Klein #2124
William Webster-Garman #2243
Arthur Carty  ($200)
Shirley Walter
Jon Greenberg #2047
Natko Katicic
Bill Moffet #2156
Dick Pingrey #0908C
Dave Porter #2288
Michelle Blankenship #2093
Janet Powell #2225
Gary Cratt #2141
Bruce Yoho #2036E
Jim Dix #2132
George Kastner #0862
Bob Perry #2021
Don Iwanski #2281
Thomas Van Hare #2252
Mark White #2129
John Clauss #0142CE

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 07:51:12 EDT
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      donations and headgear

Put me down for $100.00 toward the Great Quest, I'll mail a check on 6-14.

As for your need of a proper piece of headgear:

The best hat I have seen yet was at a military antiques show here, last January.  A dude had a Pre World War II Italian colonial governor's dress  uniform hat... fore-and-aft bicorn style, black with a tons of-a "spaghetti" on it.

Looked similar to some of the stuff I once saw the Knights of Columbus wearing.... too bad, he wanted fifteen thousand simoleons for it!!  And, no, my contribution does NOT go toward same.

(After all Italy had only, like, five or so colonies... how many hats could there be left?.... so he said anyway.  And Niku wasn't one of 'em.)

You'd love that hat.  It'd be perfect for you. (Maybe you could join the Knights of Columbus and get one cheap. And don't forget the sword to go with it.)

73
Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194

******************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks Mike.  Stopped by the local KoC (not to be confused with KFC) but the sign on the door said "Heretics Need Not Apply."

*****************************************************************
From Tim Smith 1142C

Ric;

You have my credit card number.  Please charge $100 to it for the Fiji expedition.

Tim Smith 1142C

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Thank you.  The total pledged is now $5,000 with 36 orders for videos and two donations for special member numbers.  The video list is:

Terry Linley #2297
Phil Tanner #2276
Tom King #0391CEB ($300)
Tom Abran #2296
Peter Boor #0856C
Jim Tierney #0821
Mark Cameron
Dean Andrea #2056
Dave Eberle #0921
Dennis McGee #0149CE
Darrell Houghton #2188
Dave Morris
Van Hunn #1459CE
Lonnie Schorer #1376CE ($200)
Vern Klein #2124
William Webster-Garman #2243
Arthur Carty  ($200)
Shirley Walter
Jon Greenberg #2047
Natko Katicic
Bill Moffet #2156
Dick Pingrey #0908C
Dave Porter #2288
Michelle Blankenship #2093
Janet Powell #2225
Gary Cratt #2141
Bruce Yoho #2036E
Jim Dix #2132
George Kastner #0862
Bob Perry #2021
Don Iwanski #2281
Thomas Van Hare #2252
Mark White #2129
John Clauss #0142CE
Mike Everette #2194
Tim Smith #1142C

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 08:26:34 EDT
From:         Kyle Gauss
Subject:      Niku

When will the next two Niku trips be taken and what do you hope to find there in Niku? Are some people/person going to Fiji to look for the bones that are supposedly on Fiji?

LTM
Kyle Gauss

*****************************************************************
From Ric

The next trip to Niku is scheduled to depart Fiji July 5th and return July 26th.  It is primarily a reconnaissance for the trip in 2000 now scheduled for late spring which will try to find the main body of aircraft wreckage and any bones that may still survive on the island.

While this summer's expedition is at Niku a team in Fiji will search for the bones that were sent there in 1941.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 08:39:53 EDT
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Books & Reviews

Cam Warren wrote:

>my personal recommendation is "My Courageous Sister" by Morrissey and
>Osborne (mostly the latter).

Actually, "Amelia, My Courageous Sister" by Morrissey and Osborne was written mostly by the former - that's Muriel EARHART Morrissey (hence the "sister" of the title).

Carol Osborne's major contribution was to dumb-down the text of Morrissey's fine 1963 biography "Courage is the Price: The Life of Amelia Earhart" (McCormick-Armstrong Publishing, Wichita, Kansas) and cram the pages with photographs and family documents obtained from Muriel's private collection. She also added her own chapter presenting a scattershot and often self-contradictory analysis of AE's disappearance.

If you want a well written and well researched portrayal of Earhart's life, check out "The Sound of Wings" by Mary S. Lovell (1989, St. Martin's Press, NY).

LTM,
Russ

***************************************************************
From Ric

Susan Butler's "East to the Dawn" (1997, Addison-Wesley) isn't bad either. She's a better writer than Lovell but she is also something of an apologist for Earhart, glossing over or neglecting to mention some of the less attractive incidents in Earhart's life.  Lovell is more even-handed and does a better job covering Putnam's life.  Both books, of course, endorse the crashed and sank theory and both have their facts about the last flight and disappearance screwed up.

Osborne's rehash of the Morrissey book is useful only in its reproduction of original documents but it's difficult to use as a resource.  The documents are poorly reproduced and scattered about the pages as decorations, often omitting crucial sections.

Forget "Amelia Earhart - A Biography" by Doris Rich (1989, Smithsonian Press) and "Amelia" by Goldstein and Dillon ( 1997, Brassey's).

LTM,
Ric
****************************************************************
From Dave Morris

Ric,

I am afraid to ask this as well, but I will because I wish to know.  Have you authored any books on the subject?  I know about the magazine articles and ABC/NOVA deals in 1997, but I was just thinking, who better to write a complete story, from her early years, to her last ones, than you, and/or TIGHAR's associates?  I have not seen a book based on the last flight that was really considered accurate after a little analysis.  Perhaps you have begun this venture, or do not have the time as yet to embark upon it.  I hope I have not overlooked any of your material, and I mean NO insult by the question.  I simply have not seen any material at my local books n things by you.  Please point me in the right direction :)

Dave Morris
****************************************************************
From Ric

While I have written most of what appears in TIGHAR Tracks and on the TIGHAR website, as well as numerous magazine articles (LIFE, Naval Institute PROCEEDINGS, etc.), I have not yet written a book about Earhart.  It is certainly my intention to do so but I'd kind of like to include something that all Earhart books to date have lacked - an ending.

TIGHAR has produced 7 editions (to date) of an internal publication we call The Earhart Project - An Historical Investigation (aka "The Project Book"). It's not a biography of Earhart but rather a periodically updated report on what we've learned about her last flight and disappearance.  The last edition (the 7th) was published in May of 1993 and is, of course, now hopelessly out of date.  I've been trying to get an 8th edition put together for about a year now and have failed miserably - but I have a PLAN which I will propose in a separate message entitled - uh, let's see - The 8th Edition Plan.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:07:14 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      The 8th Edition Plan.

Okay, I am admitting defeat.  For a year now I've been trying to get an 8th Edition of "The Earhart Project - An Historical Investigation" written and it has become apparent that I just can't do it alone. For the first few years of the project I was able to periodically update this internal TIGHAR report on the progress of our investigation, in part, because progress was pretty slow.  However, the last six years (the 7th Edition came out in May 1993) have seen such a cascade of new information that I've been forced to choose between following up leads and mounting new expeditions or stopping to write up results.  I've chosen to keep moving forward and I don't regret it, but we really do need to get what we've learned  written up and published. (For one thing, we've pre-sold about 40 copies of the 8th Edition at $49.95.)

Having realized I can't do this by myself, it has been brought to my attention that I don't need to (duh!).  As is illustrated daily on this forum, we have TIGHAR members who know as much, and often more, than I do about various aspects of this investigation.  These learned individuals also know how to both read and write.  So - rather than have a Project Book written entirely by one generalist (who can't find the time to do it anyway), why not assign sections to volunteer TIGHAR members  with expertise in those particular areas?  The primary task here then becomes editing, proofreading and layout.  I think we'd end up with a better book that would truly be a product of the TIGHAR organization - and, most important, we'd actually end up with a book.

At the end of this message is an outline of the 8th edition.

- I'd like to hear from TIGHAR member volunteers who would like to tackle a particular section.

- It would be perfectly acceptable for a small group of TIGHAR members to collaborate on a section.

- I will accept or decline based upon my judgement of who is best qualified.

- Once an individual or group is selected, I'll forward (electronically) the appropriate un-updated text from the 7th edition and provide the format and protocols for the 8th edition.

- I'll also provide what assistance I can in the form of documents or data that may not have been made publicly available in TIGHAR Tracks, on the website, or the on the forum.

-  I'll also put this call out to the general TIGHAR membership but anyone who participates will have to have email capability.

-  Our goal is to have a finished book ready for mailing by December 1, 1999.  It will be a bound, soft-cover publication with a color cover and numerous black and white photos, maps and graphics.

Here is an outline of the book.

I.      Amelia Earhart & Fred Noonan biographical
        A.      Earhart (DONE)
        B.      Noonan
II.     The Earhart Electra
        A.      Evolution
        B.      Configuration and condition
                1.      Engines
                2.      Fuel system
                3.      Radios
III.    The Central Pacific: Political Climate 1937
        A.      The Japanese Mandated Islands
        B.      The American Equatorial Islands
        C.      The Phoenix Islands
                1.      Sovereignty cruises
                2.      The Battle of Canton Island (incident in June 1937)
IV.     The World Flight
        A.      First Attempt
                1.      Preparations & Departure
                2.      Luke Field Crash
        B.      Second Attempt
                1.      Repairs
                2.      Secret Start
                3.      Miami to Lae
                4.      Events in Lae
                        a.      The stay in Lae
                        b.      Intended route to Howland
                        c.      Communications and coordination
                        d.      The forecast weather
                        e.      The fuel load
                        f.      The takeoff
                5.      The Final Flight
                        a.      Lae to mid-point
                                1)      Navigation methodology
                                2)      Weather
                                3)      Progress of the flight
                        b.      Midpoint to vicinity of Howland
                                1)      Navigation methodology
                                2)      Weather
                                3)      Progress of the flight
                        c.      The disappearance
                                1)  Actions of the aircraft
                                2)  Actions of the ITASCA
V.      The 1937 Search
        A.      The first 24 hours
        B.      The USS Colorado
                1.      Post-loss radio signals and search methodology
                2.      The search of the Phoenix Islands
        C.      The USS Lexington group
        D.      Gilbert Islands search
        E.      The official verdict
VI.     Theories
        A.      Landed on an island
        C.      Crashed and sank
        D.      Conspiracies
VII.    Events on Gardner Island (Nikumaroro)
        A.      1937 to 1941
                1.      Maude & Bevington visit
                2.      New Zealand Survey
                3.      Arrival of first settlers
                4.      Discovery of remains and arrival of Gallagher
                5.      Evaluation of remains and death of Gallagher
        B.      1942 to 1946
                1.      Early wartime
                2.      Loran station
        C.      1947 to 1963
                1.      Laxton's visit and the new village
                2.      The late colonial period and abandonment
        D.      1964 to 1988
                1.      Environmental surveys
                2.      SAMTEC
        E.      1989 to 1998
                1.      Niku I
                        a.      Area searched
                        b.      Artifacts recovered
                2.      Niku II
                        a.      Area searched
                        b.      Artifacts recovered
                3.      Niku III Preliminary
                        a.      Area searched
                        b.      Artifacts recovered
                4.      Niku III
                        a.      Area searched
                        b.      Artifacts recovered
                5.      The Kanton Mission
                        a.      Area searched
                        b.      Artifacts recovered

*************************************************************

As you can see, it's a huge amount of subject matter.  Let me know if you'd like to help.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:21:09 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Fiji Bones Search

I thought it might be of interest to the Forum for me to say a little something about plans for this summer's Bones Search in Fiji.

The last record we have of the bones indicates they were being held by the Central Medical School for the Government.  The Medical School has moved twice since '41, and the colonial government has of course been dismantled. Since the bones do not seem to have been sent back to England with the Government's files, the thought is that they may have remained in Fiji and be languishing on a shelf somewhere.  Since they were being held for Government, in their kanawa wood box, they may have simply been set aside and left behind in one of the Medical School's moves, or given back to Government and stashed somewhere, then forgotten.  Suva contains quite a number of large, old colonial government buildings, and if they're anything like government buildings elsewhere they could well have more or less forgotten storage rooms.

Fiji Museum archeologist Tarisi Sorovi has been contacting people involved in the Medical School's moves, interviewing them about how the moves took place, what was moved, and so forth.  Though we're still finalizing plans, our probable first priority (pending approval; we're assured of general government support but will have to get permission to search specific spaces), will be to search old Med School facilities.  If this doesn't reveal anything, we'll move on to government buildings.  The plan is to identify spaces that contain old stored stuff and search them systematically for (a) the kanawa wood box with the bones, and (b) the sextant box (which was last heard of being held by Government in Fiji).  Search techniques will be pretty much like what you'd do if you were searching your attic for something; we'll systematically inspect each shelf, box, bin, floor, cubbyhole -- it's hard to be sure until we see what we're up against.  Paper, photographic, and videotape records will be maintained of the search.  We'll also try to run down information on Dr. Hoodless and the disposition of his effects, interview people who might know anything about the bones or box, and if there's time, do some general archival research.  And, of course, be open to the sorts of serendipitous discoveries that have been typical of this project to date.  And envy the Niku team, out there in the sun and sand and vegetables.

Tom King
*************************************************************
From Ric

Tom is scheduled to arrive in Fiji with Dr. Karen Burns #2071, our forensic anthropologist, on June 28th.  Kar will leave on July 5th with the Niku expedition and Barb Norris #2175 will arrive the same day to help Tom continue the search.  Kris Tague #0905CE will join them on July 10th.  Tom returns to the States on July 15th and returns on the 17th.  Kris stays on until the Niku expedition arrives back in Fiji on the 26th and we all fly home on the 27th.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:28:12 EDT
From:         Bill
Subject:      Re: Fiji Bones Search

> ...stashed somewhere, then forgotten.  Suva contains quite a
> number of large, old colonial government buildings, and if they're
> anything like government buildings elsewhere they could well
> have more or less forgotten storage rooms.

You just reminded me of a local story.

Some town around here (eastern Massachusetts.) was remodeling their 100+ year old town hall and, in the process, took down a ceiling.  To their surprise, they found the area above the ceiling packed with records back to the 1800's  They had been stored in the attic when some move had taken place long ago, then eventually, the entrance to the attic was covered up and the very existence of the attic forgotten.

My point is, when you're searching buildings, try considering as you go along that you've actually looked everywhere by considering that you've BEEN everywhere in the building.

    - Bill #2229

*****************************************************************
From Ric

And the bones of the Little Princes were found in the Tower.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 09:57:29 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Fiji Bones Search

Good point, Bill -- we're going to need to attend to attics, cellars, crawl spaces, etc.  And the trick, I suspect, is going to be prevailing on those who work in and control the buildings to let us get into all these creepy-crawly spaces.

There's a story around here that's much like yours.  A building in downtown DC was going to be demolished, and a demolition contractor's employee was going through it, opened a long-closed door, and found a room whose plaster had fallen off the ceiling; there were papers sticking down through the lathe.  He went into the crawl space above and found it full of old papers -- and a sign that said: "Missing Soldiers' Bureau: Miss Clara Barton.  Inquire Room Six, Third Floor," which was the number and floor of the room he'd opened.  Turned out that when Ms. Barton moved her office in about 1865, all her files had gotten stuffed into the crawl space above and forgotten.  Of course, that's DC, and the U.S. Government; things may be tidier in Fiji. 

Tom King

****************************************************************
From Ric

Creepy-crawly spaces in a tropical climate like Fiji's are probably World Class Creepy Crawly.  Better you than me.  All I have to deal with are the spiders and scorpions on Niku.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:53:53 EDT
From:         Jerry Ross
Subject:      Re: Fiji Bones Search

I haven't been on this newsgroup long enough to know for sure;  Has the possiblity that the bones were buried, as in a cemetary, been considered?

Jerry Ross

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Yes.  One area of research in Fiji will be checking burial records.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Jun 1999 15:29:49 EDT
From:         Terry Linley
Subject:      Re: Fiji Bone Search

Ric, I just had another thought for the bone team.  One big problem in tropical areas is termite (or other insect) infestation.  It is possible that the original box in which the bones were stored could be gone (unless that particular type of wood is resistant to termites or other insects).  I know that doesn't help their 'search image' when they are crawling through attics and searching buildings, but it's a very real possibility.

Ter

***************************************************************
From Ric

Good point.  There is no guarantee that the bones are still in their original Kanawa wood box.  In any search it is a maxim to pay attention to not look for what MUST be there but pay attention to what IS there.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:03:31 EDT
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: Fiji Bone Search

I wonder if that was the same Clara Barton who founded the Red Cross?

Gene Dangelo #2211 :)

*****************************************************
From Ric

The very same.

**********************************************************
From bconrad

Dear Ric & Dr. Tom:

Lately, I've been kinda of dragging behind on this Kanawa wood box! From what I've gathered this is the box that supposedly holds some of the skeletal remains of Amelia! Am I correct? Anyway, this Kanawa box that you guys are talking about; how big is it and does it have any form of lining, or etc inside of it! Did Gallagher, ever mention anything about any diaries found and placed in this box? Another question and you may or may not have the answers. But, wouldn't it be true to the fact that had Gallagher found the bones and the campsite, he would have found the wreck also or remnants of it? This wood box, was it made on the island itself or was it made somewhere else! As far as what Bill said; he's right Ric! Don't forget to look in those "Nah!!! It couldn't be here!!! places. Look at the Czar family! It took people almost a great number of years, before they realized where they were at! Also, don't forget to look under those floorboards in those ole wooden floors! Yes, Ric...they are creepy and crawly with neat things! Possibly ole bones and decomposed rats and such! Who knows...ole diaries and possible artifacts from the Electra itself! Anyway, I'm curious to know more now, since your search is getting more intense! Good luck! Tom in Fiji. Hope everybody cooperates with the search over there! Keep us more updated Ric; on what goes on with there! It would be neat if you had a message board above your forum posts! This could let your members and guests see what you've found and what is going on! The post is great...but this thing I'm talking about would keep everybody informed on a daily basis! Thanks!

****************************************************************
From Ric

The forum is about as daily as it gets.  I'll put up a separate posting about what to expect regarding news from this summer's field work.

**************************************************************
From Tom King 0391CEB

(regarding what to look for)

Certainly true, the bones may not be in their original box.  We're going to have to make SOME assumptions, though -- like that they're together, so we're looking for containers large enough to contain a cranium and several long bones.  And I imagine that if a box is labeled "old personnel files" or "surplus underwear," we won't bother to check it.  Hard to devise a search strategy in any detail until we've done a recon, but it's certainly a good point that we must not be looking ONLY for a kanawa wood box.

TK
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:17:25 EDT
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: BOOKS & YEAGER

History (both modern and otherwise) is replete with examples of worthy celebrities and other achievers attaching their names to less than credible endorsements later in their careers.

william #2243
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:38:56 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Donation report 6/13/99

Our latest contributors are:

George Nelson #O580

Bob Sherman #0941

Dan Postellon #2263 who says:

I think that the Fiji bone search is fascinating.  My check for $100 will go in the mail tomorrow.  Please put me on the list for the video.

The total pledged is now $5,300 from 39 contributors.  They are:

Terry Linley #2297
Phil Tanner #2276
Tom King #0391CEB ($300)
Tom Abran #2296
Peter Boor #0856C
Jim Tierney #0821
Mark Cameron
Dean Andrea #2056
Dave Eberle #0921
Dennis McGee #0149CE
Darrell Houghton #2188
Dave Morris
Van Hunn #1459CE
Lonnie Schorer #1376CE ($200)
Vern Klein #2124
William Webster-Garman #2243
Arthur Carty  ($200)
Shirley Walter
Jon Greenberg #2047
Natko Katicic
Bill Moffet #2156
Dick Pingrey #0908C
Dave Porter #2288
Michelle Blankenship #2093
Janet Powell #2225
Gary Cratt #2141
Bruce Yoho #2036E
Jim Dix #2132
George Kastner #0862
Bob Perry #2021
Don Iwanski #2281
Thomas Van Hare #2252
Mark White #2129
John Clauss #0142CE
Anonymous #0001
Carol Blum #0429
George Nelson #O580
Bob Sherman #0941
Dan Postellon #2263

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:06:17 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Fiji Bone Search

> Anyway, this Kanawa box that you
> guys are talking about; how big is it and does it have any form of lining,
> or etc inside of it!

Answer:  We don't know how big it is, or whether it had any kind of lining. We know more or less what Kanawa (Cordia subcordata) looks like, and we assume the box had to be big enough to hold the bones that Gallagher says he put in it.  That probably makes it at least 12" x 12" x 24."

> Did Gallagher, ever mention anything about any diaries found and placed
> in this box?

Answer:  Don't we wish!  ' Fraid not.  Just the bones.  Other sources indicate that the associated shoe parts and corks-on-chains were put in the sextant box, which we'll also be looking for.

> But, wouldn't it be true to the fact that had Gallagher found
> the bones and the campsite, he would have found the wreck also or remnants
> of it?

Answer:  Not unless the bones, campsite, and wreck were all in the same place.  Remember, this is a pretty good-sized island, with lots of jungley nooks and crannies.

> This wood box, was it made on the island itself or was it made somewhere
> else!

Answer:  Made on the island.

Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:33:50 EDT
From:         Bucky Brown
Subject:      Understanding the big picture

Last week I went thru the web sight again to refresh my memory about several events, and I keep coming up with a few questions.  What was P.I.S.S. (the purpose) and how well was it documented?  How was it sold to the participants?  How did the colonists perceive the British? Finaly was any crop of coconuts or anything else ever shipped from Niku?

Bucky Brown

****************************************************************
From Ric

The Phoenix Island Settlement Scheme (P.I.S.S.) had a dual purpose:

- to relieve population pressures in the overcrowded Gilbert & Ellice Islands Colony

- to reinforce British claims of sovereignty to the islands of the Phoenix Group.

The establishment of the scheme is exceptionally well documented from the initial proposals to the numerous official progress reports.

Selling it to the participants was easy.  The prospect of having a chance to acquire property was so attractive to landless, poverty-stricken people that volunteers were recruited almost overnight.

Gilbertese perceptions of British rule were, by all accounts, very positive (with the caveat that most accounts of such perceptions come from the British).

Shipments of copra (dried coconut) were anticipated to begin in 1951 with 100 tons, as forecast in an official 1949 report.  Whether any or how much was actually shipped, we don't know.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:47:47 EDT
From:         Capt J. W. Clark
Subject:      GCT/GMT

As info, GMT is identical to GCT!   Safford was either confused or else just considered 12+ hours and change of date merely constituted  continuation of GCT.   He was definitely wrong in re Noonan's use of plot when he referred to LOP being magnetic.   Noonan, as all professionals, would certainly have plotted true lines.    I believe Safford was wrong on several counts.

Regards,
Capt. J. W. Clark

***************************************************************
From Ric

I agree.  I've also been meaning to ask you whether the numbers "3500 (stencilled) and 1542" on the sextant box found on Nikumaroro in 1940 ring any bells with you in your experience with the same steamship company Noonan worked for?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:44:54 EDT
From:         Christian Boehnke
Subject:      Informing the forum

I would go along with bconrad's suggestion of keeping us informed.

My suggestion is, you always drop a line to the forum every time tighars website changes. I dont have the time to scan the website every day, and I have lost some changes for sure.

LTM

Christian

*****************************************************************
From Ric

During the month of July, while the bone search is going on in Fiji and the reconnaissance expedition is at Nikumaroro, the forum will be moderated daily as always by Pat here at TIGHAR's offices in Wilmington, Delaware.  She will pass along what information she gets from the teams in the field but those reports will not be daily and will not be detailed. Tom King may be able to get on-line periodically to send a brief update of how the bone search is going but I know from experience that there is little time for journalism when you're engaged in a search operation. Information from the Niku team will be even sketchier.  We will not have a satelite phone or any on-line capability aboard the ship.  Communication will be by single side band HF radio back to Nai'a's base of operations in Fiji and we won't be reporting anything more than confirming that we're all safe and well and that operations are progressing. Once everyone is back home there'll be plenty of time for reports and tales from the South Pacific.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:45:13 EDT
From:         Ellie
Subject:      Re: Fiji Bone Search

Hi, you probably won't be able to do this but .years ago my parents bought an old house and tore the plaster & lath off the walls and we found many interesting things there like , small children's toys, old news papers and a change purse.  I don't know how they got there because I don't know how they could get plastered over when first built and how could they get there through the walls.  It didn't look like there had been any repairs to the walls before we tore them down.  Of course you could never get permission to tear down walls but you never know what's behind them  Good luck, Ellie

*****************************************************************
From Ric

No, I don't think Tom and his team will be able to go through the Fiji governement buildings with sledge hammers and wrecking bars.  In fact, getting the necessary permissions has been a rather delicate and involved diplomatic task.  This is not a  casual matter.   How do you think the U.S. Government might react to a request by some historical researchers from Fiji to come through and do a similar search in Washington?

**************************************************************

From Dave Porter

Good luck, etc. on upcoming trip.  Re:  Tom King's description of places to be searched.  Tom, if the box is labeled "old personnel" (as opposed to "old personnel files") you might want to check it.  :-)

LTM, Dave Porter, 2288  (who wishes he was going to Fiji instead of Ft. Benning, GA)

****************************************************************
From Ric

Ft. Benning/Fiji.  Similar climates.  Fewer airborne towers in Fiji.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:59:59 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Donation Report 6/14/99

Today we have 7 more contributors, bringing the total to 46.  They are:

Ken Feder #2103 who says,

<<Let's see. I could spend $100 on Power Rangers toys for my just-turning
6-year-old or send it to you to support one of the most fascinating
on-going historical research projects anywhere.  Hey; I gotta plan. I'll
do both.>>

Tim Smith #1142C

Louis Pantages #2159

Jerry Ellis #2113

Lee (Chuck) Boyle #2060

Bob William #0902 who says,

<<I guess I better get on the bandwagon before I fall behind!  I will donate
$100 to keep up with RC.
LTM
Bob #0902 (My ORIGINAL number!) >>

Bill Leary #2229

The complete list, so far, is:

Terry Linley #2297
Phil Tanner #2276
Tom King #0391CEB ($300)
Tom Abran #2296
Peter Boor #0856C
Jim Tierney #0821
Mark Cameron
Dean Andrea #2056
Dave Eberle #0921
Dennis McGee #0149CE
Darrell Houghton #2188
Dave Morris
Van Hunn #1459CE
Lonnie Schorer #1376CE ($200)
Vern Klein #2124
William Webster-Garman #2243
Arthur Carty  ($200)
Shirley Walter
Jon Greenberg #2047
Natko Katicic
Bill Moffet #2156
Dick Pingrey #0908C
Dave Porter #2288
Michelle Blankenship #2093
Janet Powell #2225
Gary Cratt #2141
Bruce Yoho #2036E
Jim Dix #2132
George Kastner #0862
Bob Perry #2021
Don Iwanski #2281
Thomas Van Hare #2252
Mark White #2129
John Clauss #0142CE
Anonymous #0001
Carol Blum #0429
George Nelson #O580
Bob Sherman #0941
Dan Postellon #2263
Ken Feder #2103
Tim Smith #1142C
Louis Pantages #2159
Jerry Ellis #2113
Lee (Chuck) Boyle #2060
Bob William #0902
Bill Leary #2229

Pretty good company to be in.  Is your name here?

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:52:12 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Fiji Bone Search

Re. busting down walls -- having worked for awhile for the U.S. General
Services Administration, which manages U.S. Federal buildings, I know all too
well what wierd stuff can be found behind the plaster.  But no, we won't tear
down any walls unless it's with the clear permission of the appropriate
Government of Fiji authorities.

Love to Mother (who's crazy about stuffing things behind walls)
Tom King

****************************************************************
From Ellie

Hi Ric, I wasn't suggesting we bring the walls down, I was just saying how
strange it was that some things get behind plastered walls. Ellie
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:14:41 EDT
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Fiji Bone Search

> I don't know how they got there because I don't know how they could
> get plastered over when first built and how could they get there through
> the walls.

There are superstitions about putting things in walls, especially children's
toys.  Something to do with poltergeists.

    - Bill

***************************************************************
From Ric

Got that Tom?  You could be dealing with more than you bargained for.

***************************************************************
From Tom Robison 2179

I got plastered behind a seawall once on Guam, and yes, it was pretty strange.

***************************************************************
From Ric

This line of discussion reminds me of a bobsled -  going downhill fast.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:55:00 EDT
From:         William Dohenyguy
Subject:      Niku Trash


     My computer crashed, and I've been down for a week. Don't worry, not a
virus, my stupitity.
     I went through some eighty messages and was intrigued by one. Dick
Polley wrote that he left Niku in 1945. How many individuals have lived or
visited Niku since 1937? What did they do with their trash? Having five
kids, I know this waste mounts up. Did they throw away any shoe parts,
bottle caps or tops, pieces of plastic or pieces of aluminum with rivets?
Just wondering.

William LTM

****************************************************************
From Ric

All in all, approximately 200 people have lived on Niku from the first 10 man
work party in December 1938 to the abandonment of the colony in 1963.  And
yes, they left behind lots of trash.  That's why we've spent so much time in
the old overgrown village - sorting trash.  In fact, that's not a bad
definition of archaeology - the sorting of old trash (and we rarely wear
leather jackets or carry bullwhips).

They threw away very few shoes because, for the most part, they didn't wear
shoes.  When Gilbertese people do wear shoes they wear BIG shoes because they
have big, wide (and very tough) feet.  It seems rather unlikely that the
remains of the mid-1930s vintage, woman's size 8 or 9 blucher oxford we found
on a remote part of the island was ever worn by a Gilbertese.  Certainly the
man's and woman's shoe parts found by Gallagher in 1940 did not belong to any
of the settlers.

The colonists did throw away bits of airplane aluminum and plexiglas - the
scraps left over when they fabricated items for local use.  We're not sure
exactly what they made from these airplane parts.  We know they made combs
from aluminum (we found several broken ones) and we speculate that aluminum
also made great fishing lures and a very attractive necklace could probably
be fashioned from cut sections of plexiglas.  We know that some of the
airplane parts they used as a source of metal came from WWII wrecks on other
islands.  It's the few bits that don't seem to be of WWII origin and do seem
to be consistent with Lockheed 10 parts that get our attention.

Tom King, as our esteemed Project Archaeologist and Trash Master, was in
charge of the rather extensive survey work done in the village in 1997.
Perhaps he'd like to elaborate on the challenges of sorting trash on Niku.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:30:13 EDT
From:         Skeet Gifford
Subject:      Fiji Weather & Phonetic Islands

You guys probably have this Bookmarked, but there is good current
and historical weather data for Fiji at:
<http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=3DFiji>
Note the spelling, Nandi. Ric, you didn't tell us about the Phonetic Islands.

Skeet Gifford, 1371CB

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Ah yes, the Phonetic Islands, where the letter "n" is invisible.  As in the Fijian city of Nadi (where the international airport is); or the name Matagi, pronounced Matangi; or the Samoan port of Pago Pago, pronounced Pahngo Pahngo (unless you're Dan Quayle, in which case it's Pogo Pogo).

The Phonetic Islands also include the Republic of Kiribati where "ti" is pronounced as it is in "nation."  Hence, Kiribati is pronounced Kiribas or Kiribash, and is actually the local pronunciation of "Gilberts" (as the islands were known before independence). Similarly, the island called Kiritimati is, in fact, Christmas Island (kids, you can try this at home). The districts on Nikumaroro (pronounced Nikumaroro) follow this same rule, so Ritiati (where the village once stood) is pronounced Reesas and was, in fact, named for a British official named Richards.  Across the main lagoon passage is the district named Nutiran which is - you guessed it - NuZEEran, named for the New Zealand survey party who camped there in 1938.  Got it?  Test yourself.

How do you suppose the Nikumaroro district called Noriti got its name?

For bonus points - who was the famous British administrator known to the settlers on Nikumaroro as Karaka?

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:28:02 EDT
From:         Phil Tanner
Subject:      Re: Fiji Weather & Phonetic Islands

[How do you suppose the Nikumaroro district called Noriti got its name?]

Must be the place where the best fish can be caught, but ideally you need
gear made out of aircraft wreckage. Even then, you might get a big one but
it's noriti.

ltm, Phil 2276

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Actually, Noriti (pronounced Noris) district was named for the S.S. Norwich
City, the shipwreck that stands on the reef off the northwestern end of the
island.

Karaka was the local pronounciation of Gallagher.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:32:29 EDT
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      AE's Homes

    A little off topic, but same subject.  Somebody, I forgot who at the
moment will be taking a picture of Fred's home soon.  I would like to
see pictures of Amelia's home also.  Maybe if we knew where she lived in
her lifetime, someone could go there a take a few picture.  I don't mean
the Memorial Birthplace.  I mean the everyday homes like the one in L.A.

    Where could I get a list of her homes?

**************************************************************
From Ric

I don't think I've ever seen a list of AE's homes.  Anybody got one?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:36:39 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Niku Trash

Since Ric invited me to talk some trash.....

Ric's right about archeologists studying trash.  There's even a quite famous
project at the University of Arizona called l'Projet du Garbage, which
applies archeological methods to the study of modern landfills and has
yielded some pretty interesting findings (like the fact that styrofoam and
disposable diapers aren't nearly the problems they're cracked up to be, while
packaging material is a real biggie).

In the Karaka Village on Niku, we've done detailed studies of the
distribution of trash on two sites -- "Sam's Site" (named for ABC cameraman
Sam Painter, who found a nice big piece of aircraft aluminum there) and "John
Manybarrel's House" (named for the fact that there were lots of rusting
55-gal.drums there, together with the famous plexiglass).  Both sites
contained a great diversity of stuff -- bottles, plates, a sewing machine, a
bicycle, on and on, and a lot of the stuff was made of aluminum.  Some of
this was almost certainly derived from the Loran station -- mess trays and
aluminum dishes.  Some of it was certainly from airplanes.  As Ric says, most
of the aircraft aluminum is cut into little pieces, usually rectangular,
typically an inch or two on a side.  Occasionally there'll be a rivet, but
usually not.

As most people know from our professional propaganda, archeologists try to
map everything in relation to everything else, because this is how we can
figure out what people were doing with stuff, and how the stuff came to be
where it is.  At John Manybarrels' place, the site map shows a pretty good
clustering of little aluminum pieces along the north side of the site,
associated with pieces of pearl shell and a single red glass bead.  This
suggests some kind of handicraft production, and we know from the accounts of
the Loran crew that the villagers made handicrafts.  Aside from small combs,
we have no finished aluminum artifacts -- except for a hand-beaten cup from
near Sam's Site, referred to as the Holy Grail and pretty likely a leftover
from the Loran Station.

One of our major goals in '97 was to do detailed studies of several house
sites where aluminum or other stuff (the plexiglass, control cable, etc.) had
been found during previous reconnaissance work.  The weather let us look at
only two -- Sam's and Manybarrels'.  There's no question at all that there's
a lot more aircraft aluminum in the village, and if we didn't have higher
priorities to focus on at the moment, it would be very much worthwhile to do
a lot more detailed work there.  But DETAILED is the operative word here;
it's a very time-consuming business to work over a site to the point where
you're sure you've gotten pretty much all there is to be gotten, with all the
proper data recorded.  This kind of work could produce the smoking gun, but
it would probably have to be pieced together from a lot of scattered parts.

But if you think THAT's hard, wait till we start searching the possible bone
sites!

Love to Mudders (when it rains)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Jun 1999 13:48:12 EDT
From:         Dan Postellon
Subject:      Anniversary

Today is the 71st anniversary of AE's first transatlantic flight.
You can get the original New York Times front page at:
<http://www.nytimes.com>
Daniel Postellon TIGHAR 2262

***************************************************************
From Ric

Oddly enough, those of us traveling to Fiji for the Niku Recon expedition on
July 1st will miss the 62nd anniversary of the Earhart/Noonan disappearance
because, for us, July 2nd, 1999 will disappear.  We leave Los Angeles late on
the night of July 1 and fly 11 hours nonstop, cross the International
Dateline, and arrive in Fiji early on the morning of July 3rd.  While we're
aloft in that time warp we'll keep a sharp eye out for any Lockheed Electras
flying formation on our 747.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Jun 1999 13:50:37 EDT
From:         Cam Warren
Subject:      ARCHEOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES

To view the whole archeological game in the proper light, required
reading for prospective diggers should be "The Motel of the Mysteries",
a book I'm sure Tom King has read.  It's about some really serious
scientists in the year 3000 or so, who excavate the ruins of a Holiday
Inn.  They examine every artifact found, and come to all the wrong
conclusions. Such as the white porcelain object in indidual anti-rooms
within the building.  This was determined to be some sort of pagan
altar, rather than your basic potty.

Cam Warren
(Who has participated in digs in such places as northern Peru, and even
uncovered an intact cooking pot outside the walls of Chan Chan).
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:03:51 EDT
From:         Tim Smith
Subject:      Re: Anniversary

Ric;

The Fiji expedition leaves the day after my 50th birthday, so
I'm expecting a really big present.  Namely, that the TIGHAR
team finds the kanawa wood box with the bones from Niku.  Best
wishes for a successful mission!

Tim Smith 1142C

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Okay, we'll see what we can do.  If good wishes increase the chances of
success, we're in good shape.  Thank you.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:41:16 EDT
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Re: AE's homes

I have a couple of photos of the residence on Valley Spring Drive in Toluca
Lake, California,  which were taken in August of last year.  This is the
address to which the bogus internment camp telegram was delivered. We know
it was George Puttnam's residence in 1945 but unknown if it was their
residence in 1937.

Be happy to e-mail scanned copies to those who desire.  Suggest that
requests be directed to me.

Roger Kelley, #2112

**************************************************************
From Ric

Roger has also wondered if current residents might be irritated by
sightseers.  I don't know.  It's not like the addresses of Earhart's
residences were classified information and I can't imagine that posting those
addresses on this forum would result in motorcades of the curious.
Roger also wondered if AE had ever lived at the Toluca Lake address.  I'm a
bit confused on this myself.  Is Toluca Lake in North Hollywood?  How many
homes did Putnam/Earhart have in southern California and when did they live
in them?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:30:24 EDT
From:         Anna
Subject:      Re: AE's homes

Toluca Lake isn't in North Hollywood, but pretty much adjacent to it. It's
right over the hills in the valley. I live really really close, and although
a trip to the valley isn't as cool as a trip to Niku, if you need any more
photos, please let me know and I'd be glad to take some. At least I can stop
and get a frappuccino on the way there.

Best wishes
Anna (soon to be a TIGHAR member)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:34:23 EDT
From:         Barb Norris
Subject:      Re: Anniversary

You think that's bad?  I' m gonna totally miss the 4th of July!

But it will be well worth it.

LTM,
Barb Noriti (Norris)

*****************************************************************
From Ric

(Barb is on the Fiji Bone Search Team and is traveling on July 3-5.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:39:19 EDT
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Re: AE's homes

Roger Kelley wrote:

<< We know it (the Valley Spring house) was George Putnam's residence in
1945 but unknown if it was their residence in 1937. >>

  Yes it was.  They bought the house there in July, 1935.

  AE and GP also lived for a time in Rye, NY until the house burned in
November, 1934.

  LTM,
  Russ

***************************************************************
From Ric

But is this where GP was living when the "love to mother" message was
delivered?

****************************************************************
From Shirley Walter

Hi everyone -

I am reading "Letters from Amelia".  There is mention of several places
throughout, where AE and family  and  AE and GPP stayed (renting or owning).
On page 158 there is a statement that in 1934 the Putnams rented a bungalow
at 10515 Valley Spring Lane near Toluca Lake in North Hollywood.

If you would like, I will try to put together other places and dates of
residences from this book.

Ric - are you familiar with this book?  I'm sure you are - what do you think
of it as far as being factual content?

I too wish all of you who are going on the trip the best of luck and safe
trip.  I will be waiting anxiously also, for your reports.

Shirley Walter

*****************************************************************
From Ric

As far as I know, the letters in "Letters From Amelia" are accurately
reproduced in the book.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:08:48 EDT
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Re: AE's homes

I hope I can clear up any confusion about Toluca Lake -v-  North Hollywood,
California.

North Hollywood is a postal zone and is governed by the City of Los Angeles.
Until about 1950, Toluca Lake, a residential neighborhood,  was known as a part
of North Hollywood and was served by the North Hollywood post office.   Toluca
Lake now has it's own post office and therefore, it's own identity.  However, it
is still governed by the City of Los Angeles.  An upscale shopping district
nearby on Riverside Drive is also known as "Toluca Lake."  The lake today, is
approximately 300 yards x 40 yards,  runs east and west, and is spring fed. The
shores are occupied by expensive residences and the Lakeside Country Club. The
Bob Hope residence, for example, is on the lake.   The city line which separates
Los Angeles and Burbank runs across the lake just east of mid point.   (Los
Angeles Thomas Guide map page 563-C5.)

Lockheed Aircraft, where Amelia's Electra was built and repaired,  is close by,
about 5 miles to the northeast.     By the way, the Lockheed plant has been
completely demolished and is being replaced by a new airline terminal.   The
famous "Skunk Works" building, aircraft manufacturing and assemby buildings of WW
II,  (and the cold war), in addition to the administrative buildings are gone and
no more.   Sad......

The residence of George P. Putnam, at the time of his receipt of the fake
internment camp telegram, remains there today in what is now known as "Toluca
Lake".    The house appears to be approximately 3,000 sq. ft. or more, and has
had exterior remodeling and new landscaping.  However, the original art deco
architecture is still obvious.  The age, I would guess, is probably 60 + years
and might be much older.

The question is, did Amelia and husband George reside there at the time of her
world flight, 1937?   Don't know, can any one help out and identify their
residence that time?

Roger Kelley, #2112.

******************************************************************
From Ric

Yes, AE and GP lived there together from about 1935, but I don't think that's
where the telegram was delivered.

************************************************************
From Russ Matthews (0509CE)

Ric wrote:

<< But is this [Toluca Lake] where GP was living when the "love to mother"
message was delivered? >>

  No, I don't think so.  In fact, wasn't that the point of George's reply to
the State Department - to inform them of his new address at "Shangri-Putnam"
in Lone Pine, CA?

  LTM,
  Russ
****************************************************************
From Ric

I think that is correct.

*************************************************************
From Dennis McGee 0149

Russ said:    "AE and GP also lived for a time in Rye, NY until
the house burned in
November, 1934."

        Has anyone checked to see if the Japanese may have set that
fire?  Of course, I have no evidence, but I know it is true.

        LTM, who has a burning desire for justice
        Dennis McGee #0149CE

****************************************************************
From Ric

McGee, you're a troublemaker.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:13:47 EDT
From:         William Dohenyguy
Subject:      Sewing machine

     This is directed to Tom King. You say you found a sewing machine on
Niku. Do you have any idea how long it has been there? What I'm trying to
get at is how can a sewing machine survive all the storms and a heavy
Electra 10E just disappear?

William LTM

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Yeah Tom, go ahead.  Let's see you answer THAT one.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:19:57 EDT
From:         Bill Zorn
Subject:      missing a day

Perhaps a good omen, you disappearing a day, looking for the disappeared.

L10e and a 747 in formation? An interesting, if a bit frightening image.
definitely need some flying skills there. In both cockpits.

LTM

Bill Zorn
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:23:36 EDT
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Anniversary

Ric,
Let's see, for you the July 2 will disappear - you don't suppose that AE
and FN, going in the other direction, are caught in a temporal loop and
are still out there looking for the island ...
LTM
jon 2266

**************************************************************
From Ric

I'm trying to recall... in a temporal loop you do a half roll coming down the
back side as if you're going to do a Cuban Eight except....no that's not it.
What's a temporal loop?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:05:11 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Temporal loops

Ric obviously is not a Star Trek watcher.  Go easy on him, guys; we can't all
be experts on temporal loops.

Tom King (who must say that Jean-Luc Piccard does lousy archeology)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:10:22 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Sewing machine

<<...how can a sewing machine survive all the storms and a heavy
Electra 10E just disappear?>>

OK, William, I don't know if you live anyplace close to the ocean, but imagine
yourself at some well-known beach community -- say, Miami Beach.  Along the
shoreline the sea is a very, very active player on the shape of the land, and
on anything standing on the land.  A short distance inland, the situation is
totally different.  Leave your sewing machine in your house -- or outside it
-- in downtown Miami Beach, and if it doesn't get ripped off it will stay
there.  Leave your sewing machine on the beach, and it'll likely get washed
away or buried, and more or less badly damaged in the process, even under
normal surf conditions.  Let there be a storm, or leave your sewing machine
on a rocky shore, and it'll be in even worse shape.  Make it not a solid
chunk of steel like an old-fashioned pedal-powered sewing machine but a
fragile structure like an airplane, and -- well, you get the picture.  The
sewing machine on Sam's Site was about 75 meters in from the quiet lagoon
shore, and maybe 150 meters from the more active ocean shore, with lots of
woods between.  Had the Electra been there, it would probably still be there,
too, except for what got cut off to make jewelry and fishhooks.  The
shorelines where landing would have been feasible are horses of completely
different colors.

Tom King

***************************************************************

From Ric

I have NEVER seen a horse of any color on Nikumaroro.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:15:21 EDT
From:         Tim Smith
Subject:      Re: Temporal loops

Isn't a Temporal Loop like a Bermuda Triangle, except the sides
aren't straight?  You're obviously in good form today, so I
expect a good smarty-ass comment ;-).

LTM,

Tim Smith 1142C

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Just what I need. More pressure.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:18:16 EDT
From:         Mark Cameron
Subject:      Re Temporal loop

Temporal loop -- let's look that one up -- oh yes...

You run out of fuel, crash into the ocean where you couldn't possibly be,
survive a few years floating (empty fuel tanks, you know), are captured by
the Japanese when they finally get that far east, don the dual role of Tokyo
Rose and the Emperor's Mistress, escape to the U S after the war, remain in
seclusion 'till your'e spotted in Dallas in November, 1963, escape to Cuba
the next day, later live with John Lennon in New York, he buys you a restored
L-10, then a friend in the White House arranges for you to join the carrier
Nimitz as a flying laboratory (but it's really a mission to look for Elvis),
you sail through a storm and arrive on December 6, 1941, take off for Hawaii
to finally land there (just a little late, but better late ....), but then
Japanese (oh no, not again) metal monoplanes swoop down and force you to
follow them back to their carrier, your'e taken back to Japan (wow, this
place looks familiar, and you're sure you've heard Rose's voice before), you
await the end of the war, send a message that you're in good health signed
Love To

wait a minute, there's a good book in the making here

LTM
Mark

*****************************************************************
From Ric

This is the "good, smart-assy comment" Tim was looking for.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:20:29 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Sewing machine

<<...how can a sewing machine survive all the storms and a heavy
Electra 10E just disappear?>>

It IS the Electra.  The Japanese did what they do to many things - transform
and minitiarize it.  Thus they disguised and hid all the evidence of their
capture of AE/FN.  It's as "plane" as the nose on your face!

Blue disSkieses,
LTM,
Dave Bush
#2200 +/- (maybe)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:23:35 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: missing a day

Bill Zorn wrote

>Perhaps a good omen, you disappearing a day, looking for the disappeared.
>L10e and a 747 in formation? An interesting, if a bit frightening image.
>definitely need some flying skills there. In both cockpits.

I see a new episode of The Twilight Zone developing here... Ric, watch out
for gremlins crawling around on the wings...

Tom #2179
****************************************************************
From Ric

With great trepidation, knowing the onslaught of trivia it will unleash, I
will say that it is my impression that the gremlin-on-the-wing story
appeared on The Outer Limits.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:26:18 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Innocents abroad

I've been reading up on recent Fijian politics, and find that the CIA was
implicated in the 1987 coup d'etat.  So here we come asking for permission to
ferret about in government buildings.  Fools rush in...

Love to Mother (Agent 008)
TKing

*****************************************************************
From Ric

I know who the innocents are.  Who's the broad?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:32:44 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      03U-3

Ric, you say there is a picture of one of a Chance-Vought 03U-3 seaplane that
went searching for AE and FN's Lockeed 10E.

I think it would be a good idea to make the picture available on the Tighar
site as Document of the Week.

Like many who studu aviation history I'm familiar with most airplanes of the
Thirties, but the 03U-3 is unknown to me -and I'm sure to many others.  It
got probably forgotten because it was not used in WWII and replaced by the
Chance-Vought Kingfisher.

I'm sure there must be many in my case. I'd appreciate if Tighar could make
the picture available.

                                                Herman De Wulf

*****************************************************************
From Ric

A most reasonable request.  I will submit it to the Document of the Week
selection committee for discussion and consideration.  I strongly suspect
that it will be approved.  (The committee is made up of me and Pat.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:37:08 EDT
From:         Ben
Subject:      Re: missing a day

it was on the twilite zone,william shatner was the mental patient and mickey
rooney was the gremlin tugging on the engine cowling.

Rooney did a reprise of his role when they made the twilight zone the
movie,this time john lithgow was the passenger
Good luck find milie and bring her home
Ben

****************************************************************
From Ric

Okay.  Chalk me up for one more disproved hypothesis.

I should stick to stuff I know about and stay away from temporal loops and
old televison episodes.  Now if I could just think of something I know
about.....
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:03:15 EDT
From:         Bill Zorn
Subject:      747's and L10e's

747 and L10e's in formation.........too scary

Im sure somebody out there has a flight simulator on their PC to try this. If
they havent already.

And post the results on their home page. Lets not give Ric any more headaches
or night mares than we usually give him.

LTM and good hunting.

bill Zorn
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:13:58 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      LA addresses

More parts to the riddle. According to the LA city directory:

1937 - a listing for "Putnam, Geo. r824 S. Bonnie Brae". No AE, FN.
1938 - a listing for "Earhart, Amelia r361 Fraser Av". No GP.
1938 - a listing for "Noonan, Fredk. r1527 W. 7th".

Remember, the listings are made well in advance of the year they are for. I
think I remember reading somewhere that AE had her own place around the
time of the Lockheed repair and flight, something about GP having business
back East. Although I'm not sure of this. We know Noonan had a PO box in LA
during the flight, was down there during the plane repair, and was
intending to move there after the flight.

blue skies, -jerry

****************************************************************
From Ric

Curiouser and curiouser.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:22:47 EDT
From:         William Dohenyguy
Subject:      Sewing machine

Tom, Tom, Tom:

     I am aware of the process of longshore transport ( the movement of sand
by wave or tidal action). Acording to Ric, 200 individuals have lived or
been to Niku since 1937. There was some mention of airplain parts in the
early years. I imagin there would be many parts. Do we have any mention of
what parts?

William, a pain in the butt.LTM

***************************************************************
From Ric

Allow me to jump into this just long enough to say that we have one anecdotal
account by a Navy PBY pilot who, in late 19944/early 1945 was shown a large
fish that was caught using an airplane control cable as the fishing line
leader and the large metal hook seemed to be fashioned from aircraft
aluminum.  He asked the locals where they got this stuff and they said that
when thier people had first come to the island there was an airplane there.
He asked them where it was now and they just shrugged.

We have found what amounts to the scraps from locally worked aluminum and
other airplane components in the abandoned village.  The question is - where
did they get this stuff?  Some of it, the WWII stuff, had to have been
imported from another island.  The putative Lockheed 10 stuff may have come
from right there on Niku somewhere.  The remainder of the wreck could very
well still be there.  There are lots and lots of places where we have not yet
looked.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:45:13 EDT
From:         Robert Klaus
Subject:      2-2-V-1

  First, missing days.  In July 1976 I was on my way to Kunsan Korea.  Took
off from Seattle on July 3, landed Tokyo July 5, crossing the date line at
midnight.  Missed the Bicentennial.  (And Northwest Orient didn't even buy a
free round!)
  Second, I note reference made to the "fake telegram".  Help me out here, I
thought it was a real telegram of unknown origin that was mistakenly taken by
some to be from AE.  Is this now known to have been a deliberate fraud?
  Lastly, still trying to get a handle on 2-2-V-1.  I read on the website
that all other possible aircraft were eliminated.  Which aircraft were
considered candidates, and how were they eliminated?  From the physical
details I would assume that the candidates were limited aircraft constructed
from American materials which were made in the mid to late 1930s.  Again, my
assumption: This is further limited to types which were known to be in the
area prior to the discovery of the artifact.  How large an area?  Apparently
the B-24 parts were brought there by natives for use as raw material.  What
was the junk picking range of the islanders?

Good Luck to All and LTM
Robert Klaus

******************************************************************
From Ric

"Fake telegram" is not a good description.  We don't have any information
about its origin other than that it seems to have been a legitimate
government communication.  It was not a telelgram at all, but a "speedletter."

As for checking 2-2-V-1 against aircraft types:

We came up with a list of every aircraft of American manufacture known or
suspected to have been in the Central Pacific (defined as the area borderd by
Hawaii on the north, Samoa on the south, Tahiti on the east, and Fiji on the
west) from the date of discovery of the artifact (October 1991) back to the
Wright brothers.  We came up with a list of 25 types.

Some were easy to eliminate (flush-riveted construction, anodized aluminum,
etc) while others required a physical comparison, which meant finding an
existing example in a museum.  In the end, we were nowhere able to find an
exact match with 2-2-V-1 but the Lockheed Model 10 came closest.  That's
about all we can say.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:48:48 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Sewing machine

>From Ric
>
>I have NEVER seen a horse of any color on Nikumaroro.

Ah, but you've never spent a night on the island.

KB
TK

*****************************************************************
From Ric

True, true .....and now I'm even less sure that I want to.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:26:51 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Sewing machine

And before he asks it, let me address the question that a thing is lurking in
the background.  No, it's not surprising that none of the 200 (or more)
people who've been on the island before us didn't report finding the plane if
it's there.  The vast majority of the residents, particularly in the early
days when the plane (perhaps) would have been most visible and (certainly)
least likely to be identified as WWII wreckage, were I Kiribati (Gilbertese)
colonists who didn't have any knowledge of Earhart and had very skimpy
knowledge of airplanes -- and no reason to be concerned about either one, or
to think that finding an airplane would be something that ought to be
reported.  Moreover, most of the time there was no one to report it to -- no
British presence on the island.  During the time there was such a presence,
it was represented by Gallagher, who while he doesn't say anything about
plane parts certainly did get involved with a skeleton he thought might be
Amelia's.  A skeleton that had been found some months before he got there but
not reported, and one gets the impression from his wireless messages that he
learned about the skeleton more or less by chance, having something to do
with Koata's departure for Tarawa with the Benedicting bottle.

Now, here is a curiosity.  If Gallagher thought the bones might be Amelia's,
would he not have asked the colonists about airplanes in the bush?  I know,
speculating about what someone "would" have done is pretty fruitless and can
be misleading, but it does seem like we've got to assume either that
Gallagher didn't ask such a question, and didn't notice whatever pieces the
people had to work with, or that as of the time he was there they hadn't
found the plane.  The latter seems more likely than the former.  They'd been
pretty much focused on getting the village up and going, and clearing forest
and planting down the island from Ritiati toward Aukaraime.   Nutiran, and
Taraia, where the wreckage is reported from the 1950s, weren't getting much
if any attention in and before Gallagher's time.  After Gallagher died, there
was no resident British colonial presence on the island throughout the War
years, and after the War there was so much junk lying around as a result of
the Loran station, and so much wartime debris scattered on other islands,
that there was no reason for anyone to give a second thought to someone using
a chunk of aluminum to make a fishhook.  Best bet seems to be that if the
plane was there, and if it was found at all, it was found sometime after
Gallagher's death (or at least after he left for his final trip to Fiji).

The major fly in the ointment, however, is that early on, people often landed
on the island by tieing off the stern of the Norwich City and using it as a
pier to get to land.  To get to the village, they'd then have to walk down
the Nutiran shore, right across where some of the wreckage was reported in
the 1950s.  So if the plane was there, it had to have been pretty invisible.
This is certainly not inconceivable; it could have been buried, and it could
have been lost in the Scaevola.

There's also the question of why, if the colonists had found the plane before
1947, the guy who told Floyd Kilts about the bones didn't also say anything
about the plane.  Here again we get into a lot of unsupportable assumptions
about what someone "would" have done.  We don't know anything about the
circumstances under which Kilts got the bones story.  Did he ask?  Was it
volunteered?  Did he ask about plane wreckage?  Don't know; can't tell,
without more information on the circumstances of his interview, which we
haven't thus far been able to find.

Anyway, the bottom line is, the fact that 200 (or more) people have been on
the island at various times doesn't by any means guarantee either that (a) a
plane wreck would have been found, or (b) that it would have been reported to
anyone.

Love to Mother (who sews)
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:34:21 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Re: 747's and L10e's

How many people does it take to replace a lightbulb? I think Ric calculated
it takes 175...

So let me try and give my advice on how to fly a Lockheed 10E and a Boeing
747 in formation.

At one time the British were so proud of their Concorde that they flew it in
formation with one of their WW2 Spitfires. I still have the picture
somewhere. The Spit flew at full speed I suppose and the Concorde throttled
back to the Spit's 448 m.p.h.

Now let's see what a Lockheed 10 can do. It CRUISES at 182 m.p.h. it says
here. Surely that is above a 747's stalling speed, which should be around 110
kt. since it lands at 130 knots (any 747 pilots to confirm this ?), leaving a
margin of  over 70 kt. If 158 knots is the Lockheed's  cruising speed then the
ship can do better than that at full throttle.

I think flying a Lockheed 10 and a Boeing 747 in formation is feasible. Even
without scaring the pilots. Are there any 747 pilots on the forum to
confirm this ?

                                        Herman

****************************************************************
From Ric

Are there any 747 pilots on the forum?  Did Amelia wear blucher ovxfords?
Heck, we've got Fat Albert pilots out the wazoo.  Whadya say boys?  Could you
stagger along with everything down and dirty at, say, 150 knots?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:05:42 EDT
From:         Willim Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: 747's and L10e's

I'm not a pilot but I know something about it: A typical 747 can definitely
mush along in nominally stable flight between 130-150 knots, flaps extended.
Not much margin for error, however, especially with an aircraft that costs
as much as it does. In realistic terms... why bother? <grin>

william #2243

******************************************************************
From Skeet Gifford 1371CB

Depends on the weight. These numbers are applicable to the B-747-400:

At maximum takeoff gross weight 870,000 pounds, the stall speed with
Flaps 30 (the maximum landing flap setting) is 149 knots.

At a gross weight of 600,000 pounds, the approach speed for Flaps 30 is
150 knots. At this weight, the stall speed is 122.

Skeet Gifford 1371CB

*****************************************************************
From Ric

I suspect that it's safe to take Skeet's word on this.  TIGHAR Board of
Directors member Capt. Richard "Skeet" Gifford is the test pilot who
literally wrote the "owner's manual" on the Boeing 747-400.

******************************************************************
From Dave Porter 2288

Ric,

As long as we're running this line of slightly off-topic thinking, let me
toss in my two cents, both of which involve Lockheed products.  Hope whoever
does the 10E/747 formation simulation has better luck than the brave pilots
in that GE photo-op accident where a Lockheed F-104 Starfighter flew in too
close formation to an XB-70 Valkyrie.

To Robert Klaus:  Not only did you miss the Bicentennial, you missed the
Israeli raid on Entebbe, one of the Lockheed C-130 Hercules' finest hours,
which most of us missed because of the Bicentennial.

LTM (Love Trivia, man)  Dave Porter, 2288

*****************************************************************
From William Dohenyguy

Herman wrote:

<<At one time the British were so proud of their Concorde that they flew it
in formation with one of their WW2 Spitfires. I still have the picture
somewhere. The Spit flew at full speed I suppose and the Concorde throttled
back to the Spit's 448 m.p.h. >>

Hi Herman:

     Don't know. I only flew a Skymaster and that craft would only do about
120 knots in a dive.

William LTM
****************************************************************

From Skeet Gifford 1371CB

Re: Spitfires and Concordes and bears, Oh, no!

The Spitfire-Concorde issue is interesting. The Concorde approach
speed is 190 knots for noise abatement (a relative term--think F-16
in AB) tapering to 160 knots over the runway threshold. At this speed,
the airplane is not speed-stable, so approaches are flown with
Autothrottle. Fuel flow subsonic is brutal. During the photo session
with the Spitfire, Concorde was probably burning a little under
50,000 pounds per hour.

Published speeds for vintage WW II aircraft should be used with
caution. Those numbers were posted using power settings far beyond
those which a contemporary owner would be willing to risk. 448 mph
is about 390 knots. Anybody wanna bet that the shot was taken with
both aircraft at 280-300 knots.

Skeet Gifford 1371CB
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:32:52 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      The Admiral Day

Anybody feel like doing some shipwreck research?

I recently received an email from a veteran who served on canton Island in
1942 who writes:

ARRIVING IN FEB 1942 WE LOCATED MUCH LUMBER ALONG THE SHORE.  AMONG THE
LUMBER WE FOUND A LIFE PRESERVER THAT HAD ADMIRAL DAY PRINTED ON IT. THIS
LUMBER WAS IN VARIOUS WIDTHS BUT MOSTLY IN 12 FT LENGTHS WE USED MOST OF THE
LUMBER TO BUILD A BELOW GROUND KITCHEN& MESS HALL.  WE LATER LEARNED THAT THE
ADMIRAL DAY WAS A LUMBER SHIP BUT THAT WAS ONLY A RUMOR.  I DID TRY TO FIND
OUT FROM THE NAVY IF THERE EVER WAS SUCH A SHIP & IF INDEED IT DID SINK OUT
IN THE PACIFIC OCEAN IN LATE 1942.  THIS LUMBER WAS FOUND ON CANTON SOUTH
SIDE.

The official radio List of Coast Stations and Ship Stations (aka the Berne
List) for 1937 shows the S.S. Admiral Day as belonging to Pacific Steamship
Lines Ltd., pier 16, San Francisco.  The ship does not appear in the 1941
list so it looks like we can assume that she went down sometime between 1937
and 1941.

This apparent loss is of interest because any shipwreck in the region of the
Phoenix Group is a possible source of the castaways on Gardner Island.  Let's
see what we can find out about the Admiral Day.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:23:46 EDT
From:         Erik Flippo
Subject:      The gremlin on the wing

The gremlin-on-the-wing story was, in fact, a 1963 Twilight Zone segment
called "Nightmare at 20,000 feet," starring shameless over-actor William Shatner.

The story was repeated in the 1983 Twilight Zone movie, this time called
"Nightmare at 35,000 feet," (adjusted for inflation, I'm guessing) starring
shameless over-actor John Lithgow.

I mention this because, many years later, on this season's finale of "Third
Rock from the Sun," the following priceless exchange takes place:

Shatner (guest starring as The Big Giant Head): "On my flight here, I thought
I saw something crawling on the wing."

Lithgow (as Dick Solomon): "The same thing happened to me!"

I know -- useless off-topic information, Ric. But you opened the door.

Erik Flippo #2197

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Wow.  1963.  And I still remember my hair standing straight up when Shatner
raised the window shade and the gremilin's face was RIGHT THERE.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:25:09 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Sewing machine

>From Ric
>
> I have NEVER seen a horse of any color on Nikumaroro.

Therefore, we can infer that all horses on Niku are either extremely adept at
avoiding human contact or they are invisible.  Perhaps they are Japanese
conspiracy horses!  Since there is no proof they exist, they must be there,
otherwise there would be proof that they don't exist!

LTM,
Blue Skies,
Dave Bush
#2200
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:28:08 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: sewing machine

Tom King wrote:

> Anyway, the bottom line is, the fact that 200 (or more) people have been on
> the island at various times doesn't by any means guarantee either that (a) a
> plane wreck would have been found, or (b) that it would have been reported to
> anyone.

Also, since the general assumption held that AE/FN went down at sea, the finding
of the bones might not lead one to ask about the plane, figuring instead that
they came ashore in a life raft.

LTM,
Blue Skies,
Dave Bush
#2200
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:03:20 EDT
From:         Clyde Miller
Subject:      Off-topic gremilins

Now for the aviation tie in!!!!

What type plane was Shatner flying in?

What type plane was Lithgow flying in?

(should we be concerned that an inordinate amount of Twilight Zone
references keep popping up on the Forum)?

Clyde
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:06:43 EDT
From:         Robert Klaus
Subject:      Re: gremlin on the wing

<<Wow  1963.  And I still remember my hair standing straight up when Shatner
raised the window shade and the gremilin's face was RIGHT THERE.>>

Ric,
  Wow, 1963, I still remember my hair!"
Robert Klaus
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:15:24 EDT
From:         B. Bara
Subject:      Re: Off-topic gremlins

  my guess would be a dc7 for shatner  and a 707 for lithgow
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:31:24 EDT
From:         Tet Walston
Subject:      Gremlin origins

   Gremlins were known to the RAF in late 1940, but the general public
were not aware of them until the morning of April 1st. 1943, the 25th.
Anniversary of the Founding of the RAF. That morning, the BBC "sang" the
words of the poem below, and to our horror, told the World that we PR
pilots were flying unarmed a/c "deep into enemy skies, bringing back proof
of our bombing successes" (Ha!) Our pictures showed that a bomb within 5
miles of target was good!! However, this spurred the boffins to produce
better navigation aids for night bombing.

The poem was written by Anon, but I believe that the then F/Lt Jimmy
Morgan, later S/Ldr. (My C.O.) was the author.

                             Gremlins

                  This is the tale of the Gremlins,
                          Told by the PRU
                    At Benson, Wick and St. Eval
                 And believe me you snobs, it's true

                When you're seven miles up in the heavans
                     That's a hell of a lonely spot,
                    And it's fifty degrees below zero,
                        Which isn't exactly hot!

                 When you're frozen blue like your Spitfire,
                     And you're scared a Mosquito pink,
                When you're thousands of miles from nowhere
                    And there's nothing below but the drink --

                       It's THEN that you see the Gremlins
                          Green and gamboge and gold:
                          Male and female and neuter,
                         Gremlins both young and old.

                       It's no use trying to dodge them,
                      The lessons you learned in the Link
                        Won't help you evade a Gremlin
                    Though you boost and you dive and you jink!

                      White ones will wiggle your wingtips,
                       Male ones will muddle your maps.
                        Green ones will guzzle your glycol,
                          Females will flutter your flaps.

                        Pink ones will perch on your perspex
                        And dance pirrouettes on your prop.
                        There's a special middle aged Gremlin
                         Who'll spin on your stick like a top.

                         They'll freeze up your camera shutters,
                         They'll bite through your aileron wires,
                      They'll bend and they'll break and they'll batter,
                       They'll insert toasting forks in your tyres.

                          This is the tale of the Gremlins
                               Told by the PRU
                         (P)retty  (R)uddy  (U)nlikely to many
                             But fact, none the less to the few.


(PRU means Photographic Recconnaisance Unit) We flew Spitfires and Mosquitos.

LTM, Tet Walston, ex No.1 and No.4 PRU  RAF
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:36:57 EDT
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Off-topic gremlins

> From Clyde Miller
> (should we be concerned that an inordinate amount of Twilight Zone
> references keep popping up on the Forum)?

Probably not.  Every time I tell someone I think she may have landed on a
remote island and died there they think I'm from the Twilight Zone.

If they'll listen long enough, I usually get a better response after I tell
them that the island is not only in the right direction but within fuel
range.  It's amazing how many people are convinced there wasn't enough fuel
to get anywhere but Howland.

    - Bill
*****************************************************************
From Randy Jacobson 1364

Well, everyone knows that William Shatner got his big break on
Star Trek, which spawned a couple of spin-offs, including Voyager,
which ultimately was responsible for abducting AE and FN so they
could appear on their show a couple of years ago....

*****************************************************************
From Ric

So I guess all of this isn't so off-topic after all.

***************************************************************

From bethpage89
(wondering what kind of airliner Shatner was supposedly in)

Constellation?  Super Constellation?

*************************************************************
From Ric

I rather suspect that the actor was sitting in a soundstage mockup.  Worrying
about just what kind of airplane it was supposed to represent is probably an
oversuspension of disbelief.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:43:24 EDT
From:         Suzanne
Subject:      scrambled TV metaphors

I KNOW! Fred and Amelia have slipped through the same time warp that the
Trans Global plane portrayed on the Twilight Zone did. For those of you too
young to remember Rod Sterling's masterpieces -- the Trans Global flight from
Europe to NY City kept trying to land, but would repeatedly see NY Island as
it was in different time periods including a pre-Jurassic Park dinosaur
jungle. You guys be careful, we'd be lost without our Fearless Leader,

LTM,
Suzanne 2184

****************************************************************
From Fearless Leader

Your sentiment is appreciated Natasha, but we must remain focused on our
mission:
FIND MOOSE AND SQUIRREL!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:49:42 EDT
From:         J. DiPippi
Subject:      Re: The Admiral Day

THANK YOUR GROUP FOR FINDING OUT ABOUT THE ADMIRAL DAY.  ALL THESE YEARS I
OFTEN WONDERED WHAT HAPPENED TO IT.  MAYBE IT HIT THE REEF.

 THE SHIP "PRESIDENT TAYLOR" THAT BROUGHT US TO CANTON HIT THE REEF AND
REMAINED THERE ALL DURING THE WAR.

 AFTER THE WAR I DID READ AN ARTICLE THAT IT  WAS  DISMANTLED AND TOWED TO
HONG KONG FOR SCRAP.

****************************************************************
From Ric

We still don't know what happened to the Admiral Day and we need to find out.

As for the President Taylor, she was partially scrapped out in the early
1950s but was never towed to Hong Kong.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:19:33 EDT
From:         Deliliah
Subject:      Re: gremlin on the wing

I still look out on the wing everytime I fly and smile thinking about
the gremlin.

Sorry--off track I know.

LTM
Deliliah

***************************************************************

From Ric

You might not smile if you actually SAW a gremlin on the wing.  Isn't it
weird how many of us boomers saw one TV show and carry the image around with
us the rest of our lives.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:26:13 EDT
From:         Deliliah
Subject:      Re: Admiral Day

I checked in my "search" on web tv and there was nothing listed for the
Admiral Day.

Only 6 pages could be found with anything relating to the word admiral.'

I tried--sorry\

LTM-

***************************************************************
From Ric

I'm afraid that it's going to take more research horsepower than that.  If a
ship out of San Francisco was lost it would almost certainly be mentioned in
the San Francisco papers.  We know she was still afloat in 1937 but gone by
1941.  That's still a lot of newspapers to search.  We could probably pin the
date down better if someone has access to the Lloyd's List.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:21:33 EDT
From:         J. Dipippi
Subject:      Re: Admiral Day

COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT THE JAPANESE DID SINK THIS SHIP IN DEC. 1941
OR JAN.42 BECAUSE THAT LUMBER WAS IN VERY GOOD CONDITION.

ALSO THANKS FOR THE INFO. ON THE PRES. TAYLOR.  THE NAVY DID TRY TO GET IT
OFF
OF THE REEF.  THEY HAD DIVERS PUT A CHARGE ON THE REEF.  THEY ALSO HAD A TUG
BOAT.  ALSO THE REPAIR SHIP ARGONNE.

 WILL YOU BE E-MAILING FROM THE ISLANDS?  YOU WILL BE ON YOUR WAY IN ABOUT
ANOTHER WEEK.  GOOD LUCK TO YOU AND YOUR PARTY.

****************************************************************
From Ric

I suppose it is possible that the Admiral Day was torpedoed.

No, I won't have any way of emailing during the expedition.  Our only
communication with the outside world will be via the ships radio back to its
home base in Suva.  They will pass on brief reports to Pat here in Delaware
via email and she will pass that along to the forum.  Don't expect more than
just a very basic "all's well" until we get back.
***************************************************************
From Herman De Wulf

I searched the US Navy History website, found nothing useful and eventually
tried to locate Lloyd's Register of London.

I hit upon their e-mail address and have sent them an inquiry. If they are
cooperative there should be a reply within say 48 hours (?). As soon they
reply,I hope to provide you with all the details on the Admiral Day,

Blue skies (or should I say Blue seas ?)

Herman

*****************************************************************
From Ellie

On the research of the Admiral Day, posibbly something in the search engine
"Northern Lights" might help
Ellie
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:32:20 EDT
From:         Don
Subject:      Re: The Admiral Day

Is the Admiral Day a US Navy Vessel? A quick search of the Naval Vessel
Registry does not show a Admiral Day.  Could the name have been changed?

Thanks,

Don

***************************************************************
From Ric

See earlier posting.  Admiral Day was a commercial vessel operated by Pacific
Steam Ship Company Ltd out of San Francisco.

Also, I doubt that she was sunk by the Japanese.  The Berne List we have for
1941 was published in May and she is not on that list.  Aside from what they
did to poor Amelia, Japan was not at war with the U.S. until December.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:39:35 EDT
From:         Ben
Subject:      Transmigration of souls

         As a motorsports writer and historian I find they ties between auto
racing and Amelias flight around the world closely related.
The intestinal fortitude .perservence and sheer determination  is equal to
ant of the greatest auto racing drivers.
Plus Amelia was the GRand Marshal at the 1935 Indianapolis 500 and the day
she vanished with Fred Noonan, July 2,1937, a little baby boy was born to
 Lee Arnold and Elizabeth near Level Cross North Carolina named Richard Lee
Oh by the way their last name was Petty.
If you believe in reincarnation, could Richard Petty be the incarnation of AE
???
Thanks Ben

******************************************************************
From Ric

Only if she actually died on July 2nd.  It is a well known pseudo-scientific
fact that transmigration of souls can only occur after the donor is dead.

Besides, I never seen a photo of Amelia Earhart wearing sunglasses and a
cowboy hat with feathers on it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:56:49 EDT
From:         Robert Klaus
Subject:      2-2-V-1

  Been thinking about the big piece again.  The one inch rivet spacing was
still bothering me.  I worked up my own list of candidate source aircraft.  I
came up with about forty known to have been in the general area, not all of
which (to my knowledge) suffered losses.  Then I figured which I could get a
look at locally.
  Looked at a DC-3 locally, and found several areas which were fairly close.
I then went to the museum at McChord AFB to look at their Douglas's.   The
C-47 and B-23 had several spots that were similar, but no smoking gun matches
(sounds like an Arquibus).  Then I looked at the B-18.
  I found two areas which seemed to be very good matches for the part as
described.
  The first was under the tail, aft of the tail wheel.  This area had the
four lines of small brazier head rivets spaced one inch pitch.  At the front
of the area the rows are spaced about five inches, at the aft edge just under
four inches, rate is about one quarter inch in two feet.  The panel is
bordered by a line of heavier rivets with a one and a quarter to one and a
half inch pitch.  The panel has a marked convex curvature parallel with the
rows of rivets.  So far so good.  The problem with this match is a line of
crossing rivets, which does not match 2-2-V-1.  The B-18 at McChord was
originally a B-18A bomber, converted to a B-18B ASW aircraft with a Radar
nose and a MAD boom in the tail, then converted to a cargo aircraft.  It
shows evidence of modification and repair work in the area.  This may account
for the crossing line.
  The second area is on the upper wing skin.  There is a skin panel starting
about two feet aft of the leading edge, fourteen inches outboard from the
outer panel butt joint.  It has about a dozen rows of small brazier head
rivets with one inch pitch.  At the inboard edge the spacing is about one and
a third inches.  This tapers down to just under four inches in the first two
feet.  The leading and trailing edges of the panel have lines of heavier
rivets.  There are no crossing lines.  The panel has curvature parallel to
the lines of rivets.  A chunk could be cut from this panel which would match
the artifact as described.
  In neither case was I able to check the skin thickness.
  Have the B-18 and DC-2 been checked for matches by your people?
  There is another, earlier and less modified, B-18 at the Castle Air Museum
in California.  It has suffered less modification than the McChord A model.
This could be checked for the crossing line under the tail.  A DC-2 (which
should have a similar wing panel) as well as another B-18A are resident at
the Air Force Museum.
  Others I haven't checked yet, but which would seem good candidates are the
LB-30, Boeing 247 and Douglas Devastator.  Have these been eliminated?

LTM,  Robert Klaus
****************************************************************
From Ric

Of the aircraft you've mentioned, the most likely candiates would seem to be:
C-47 - because we know that a C-47A crashed on Sydney Island.
B-18 - because we know that there was B-18 on Canton (fate unknown).
LB-30 - because we've found Consolidated Model 32 parts on Niku

We're quite sure there were no Boeing 247s or DC-2s anywhere near there.  We
know of no Devastors in the area but we can't do a physcial check because
there are none in captivity.

We've looked at various C-47s and DC-3s and while there are a few areas with
roughly similar parallel rivet lines, all of the rivets seem to be number 4
(4/32 inch diameter shaft) or higher and the artifact has number 3s.  I don't
recall seeing the area aft of the tail wheel that you mention but there's a
C-47 near here that I can look at.  Same problem with the B-18.  The rivets
are too big.

We've never physically inspected an LB-30 (the only one extant is the CAF's
Liberator) but we've crawled all over the USAFM's B-24D and a B-24J.  No
match.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:58:12 EDT
From:         Dave Bush
Subject:      Re: Gremlin origins

It is my recollection (poor that it is) that gremlins were first introduced
to flyers in WWI or The Great War as it was known, then.  They were legend
for that time period.  Correct me if I'm wrong (which I occassionally am, but
only when I'm not right).

Blue Skies,
Dave Bush
#2200
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:07:45 EDT
From:         JT
Subject:      Boomers

Wouldn't it be great to travel back in time with Mr. Peabody & Sherman or
with Chumly & Tennessee Tuxedo via Professor Phineus J. Whoopee's Way-
Back Machine?  Or travel to "The City on the Edge of Forever" with Kirk,
Spock & McCoy (R.I.P. DeForrest Kelley)?

Take us back in time, Fearless Leader!
Let this be the trip to unearth the solution or at least be the next
step in solving the mystery.

Enjoy your trip!!!

Love To Moose & Squirrel,
              JT

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Didn't Mr. Peabody invent the Way-Back Machine?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:11:06 EDT
From:         Dave Porter
Subject:      boomers and gremlins

It isn't just you boomers who have the "gremlin on the wing" image
permanently fixed in your minds.  I didn't show up 'til 67, and it was
foremost in my mind for my first airplane ride in 1983 at age 16.  My wife
wasn't born until 1972, and when I told her yesterday that everyone on the
forum was talking about gremlins on airplane wings, she immediately replied
"oh, like on that William Shatner Twilight Zone episode."  Stephen King and
Clive Barker are rank amateurs compared to Rod Serling.

LTM (who always let us watch Twilight Zone reruns) Dave Porter, 2288
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:15:01 EDT
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: gremlin on the wing

I think I was around 6 when I first saw it-- still one of the most
terrifying images I carry. The irony is that I saw the episode again during
the 80s and it was so innocent looking, while the memory of that first
viewing is still quite spooky <grin>.

william #2243

*****************************************************************
From Ric

There's probably a lesson in this.  One way to get a kid to remember
something forever is to scare him sh--less.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:26:05 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Greatness and Pettiness

Ric said:  "Besides, I never seen a photo of Amelia Earhart
wearing sunglasses and a cowboy hat with feathers on it."

        Nor have I seen Richard Petty wearing blucher oxfords.

        LTM, who's a Tiny Lund (R.I.P.) fan
        Dennis McGee 0149CE

****************************************************************
From Ric

Also, AE did one cigarette ad and felt horrible about it.  Petty spent his
whole career in a sport dominated by tobacco advertising.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:02:39 EDT
From:         Tom Abran
Subject:      Noonan's Home

I don't how interesting this is, but there has recently been talk of
photographing Amelia's former home's. As I have recently visited Fred
Noonan's former residence, I thought I'd share my findings.

Fred and Josie Sullivan were married in Jackson Mississippi, on July
11, 1927. On Fred's 1930 voter registration card, he list's his address as
5909 Catina Street, New Orleans, LA. He also states that he has lived in
Precinct No. 11, Ward No. 4 of this Parish continuously since 1928. City
directories and phone books confirm his stay here from 1927 - 1930.
Catina Street is located approximately 3 mile NNW of New Orleans center. It
runs North/South, ending just short of Lake Ponchartrain. The area is a
rather compact suburban neighborhood that seems to have remained unchanged
since it's original construction. Some of the homes were razed when I-610
was created, stranding a small section of Catina Street on the south side of
the highway. Fred's house escaped this fate by less than half a mile. Most
of the houses are small, two floor dwellings, varying in design, and in
various states of repair. The most common style is the "shotgun shack".
These houses have a narrow fa=E7ade, but are quite deep. (They can easily be
cleaned out by firing a single shotgun!)

5909 Catina Street faces west, two houses north of Harney Street.
The house on the corner is presently undergoing major restoration work. The
clapboards have been stripped down to bare wood, scaffolding surrounds much
of the house, and a 'Port-O-Potty' is prominently displayed in the front
yard! Fred's other neighbor is a well kept home with new siding, and a tiny
but well maintained lawn.

Unfortunately, Fred's old home has not received the attention of its
neighbors. The tiny front yard is devoid of grass, as it has been taken over
by trees and overgrown bushes, almost completely obscuring the front façade.
The small backyard has suffered the same fate. The house itself has peeling
white clapboards, with some brickwork toward the front. The structure seems
to be sagging heavily toward the rear. This is a common problem in New
Orleans.

There are several distinguishing features to this house. From the front it
seems to be a duplex (along with 5907). It has a second floor entrance, with
a long, steep staircase leading up to the main entrance. The front doors are
perpendicular to each other, facing the street at a 45-degree angle. I also
noticed additional doors on each side, and another in the back. These doors
seem to be alternate entrances, as opposed to separate apartment entrances.
The house is by far the largest house on the block. From the front it
appears to be of average dimensions, but it stretches all the way back to
Milne Blvd. The other houses on Catina Street are back to back with houses
on Milne Blvd.

The proximity of the other houses and the overgrowth of brush make
it difficult to examine the architectural details, and I'm puzzled as to the
layout. The house is quite long, in fact it seems to be two large houses
butted end to end. With both entrances on one end of the building, the
layout must be very strange.

I was hoping to gain some clues about Fred's (possible) family,
while living in New Orleans. Unfortunately, the unusual building holds no
clues as to the size of his living quarters. If he did indeed have half the
building, I'd assume he had family living with him, but it's quite possible
that the house was once divided into several small apartments. If this was
the case, he and Josie may lived there alone (no children).     -     Tom

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks Tom.  Wouldn't it be nice if someone bought the place, fixed it up,
and put it on the National Register of Historic Places?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:28:30 EDT
From:         Mark Cameron
Subject:      Re: gremlin on the wing

I once owned a '72 Gremlin that nearly scared me to death more than a few
times...

LTM
Mark

****************************************************************
From Ric

What's the vaudeville term for the little drum piece they do after a
one-liner?  We need to find a way to include one of those with about half of
these forum postings.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:31:25 EDT
From:         Ben
Subject:      Re: Greatness and Pettiness

but his main sponsor for all those years has been stp

alas a thought,but a good one.  good luck on the trip

just for the record i thought dewayne lewis lund from cross sc was one of the
nicest person ive ever met
ben

*********************************************************

From ric

Thanks Ben.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:44:47 EDT
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Admiral Day

        Don't know for sure yet about the Admiral Day, but according to
info I found through Claremont College (CA), they obtained the records
of the Pacific Steamship Company after it went out of business in 1936.
I'll send them an email and see if anyone there can tell us what
happened to the Admiral Day.  There seems to be either an affiliation
with another company call The Admiral Line, or else it was a part of the
Pacific Steamship Company.  In any event, it LOOKS like they sailed up
and down the west coast, ie:  up to Alaska.  The company's records were
donated to the college when (in 1940), a member of their staff went to
Seattle to sort and collect the records.  Info on this is available at
http://voxlibris.claremont.edu/sc/collections/hm/pacific_steam.html
(note that's an underline between "pacific" and "steam").

        Wait a minute - you don't suppose the Admiral Day was used to
bring back liberated prisoners from a certain Japanese detention camp???
. nah!

        And yes, the Wayback Machine was invented by Mr. Peabody.

        ltm
        jon  2266

******************************************************************
From Ric

Pacific Steamship went out of business in 1936...hmmmm. Yet the September
1937 Berne List has the Admiral Day owned by that company.  Probably just a
matter of the records not being updated fast enough.

Were it not for debris seen washed up on Canton in 1942 you might think that
the ship was retired or the name changed by a new owner.  But a life ring and
a whole bunch of wood sure sounds ominous, and I don't think the stuff would
all stay together and wash up on Canton if the ship went down just off
California.

Curiouser and curiouser.  Sounds like another Discovery Channel epic to me.
"What Really Happened to the Admiral Day?"  ( I know.  She was carrying a
load of Lockheed 10 parts, blucher oxford shoes, and sextant boxes when she
went down near Nikumaroro with the loss of all hands except one woman
passenger.)

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:50:55 EDT
From:         Ken Feder
Subject:      Re: gremlin on the wing

> What's the vaudeville term for the little drum piece they do after a
> one-liner?  We need to find a way to include one of those with about half of
> these forum postings.

That would be a "rim-shot," I think. And, as the long-ago owner of a
1974 Gremlin, I take umbrage at the crack. I loved that car. You put the
key in the ignition in the morning, crank it over, and 4 times out of
ten the car would start. It it wasn't too cold. Or hot. Or wet.

Ken Feder

***************************************************************
From Ric

Rim-shot, yes.  I think that's it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:59:09 EDT
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Re: gremlin on the wing

Actually-- there is some evidence that strong emotions are associated with
some of our most powerful and influential learning experiences-- for better
and for worse. Although in balance I could probably make a case for it being
a survival benefit.

william #2243

****************************************************************
From Ric

The evidence is really very strong.  Emotional association is what sems to
trigger long term retention.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:02:58 EDT
From:         Ben Barabas
Subject:      Re: gremlin on the wing

explain something to me please
As I understand it,the island in question is uninhabited,right?
Has there been any thought to defoliating by flame the island
True is would consume any small items made of paper,rubber,wood but the major
metal components,fueslage ,wings engines would withstand it
I recall a few years ago when the yellowstone national park,burned they found
the long forgotten wreckage of a b17,which considerably larger than a
lockheed 10 but just the same uncovered it from the overgrowth
Has there been any discussion on that

Best Regards and results

Ben Barabas

****************************************************************
From Ric

Uh...let's just say that is not an option we would consider.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:10:48 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      Re: gremlin on the wing

Yeah---'rim-shot ' is the accepted colloquial terminology..
Jim Tierney

****************************************************************
From Mark Cameron

Rim shot or "BUD-UM-BAH"

Safe trip, God bless

LTM
Mark
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:23:26 EDT
From:         Tom Miller
Subject:      Another Fred Goerner question

Being a relative newcomer to this site, I am sure this topic has been well
covered, however I have not found sufficient information to answer my
questions in your search on your webpage. Therefore I will proceed with my
question Having just completed the Fred Goerner book on Amelia Earhart's
disappearance theory, I wonder what your thoughts are about his book. It all
seems so well researched, and plausible, however common sense would tell you
that in the past 35 years, there has been plenty of time to dispute all of
his claims. I have read many books on Amelia Earhart, and this one seems to
make more sense than most. I am finding your site quite interesting, and if
the Fred Goerner book accomplished anything at all, it was in leading me to
your site, due to my new found curiosity. By the way is Mr. Goerner still
alive?

Thanks,
Tom Miller

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Goerner died a couple of years ago.  Several years before his death he partially
repudiated the theory he had put forth in the 1966 book. Although he remained
convinced that the Japanese had somehow taken AE to Saipan, he no longer
believed she had come down in the Marshall islands.  He thought that maybe
she had come down at Winslow Reef or somewhere in the Phoenix Group and then
was then abducted by the Japanese.

Fred was a journalist, not a historian.  He never accepted the frailty of
anecdotal testimony.  There never has been the first shred of real evidnece
that the Jpanese had anything to do with the Earhart disappearance.  He was a
pretty good writer and his book became a best seller which popularized one of
the greatest American myths since George Washington chopped down the cherry
tree.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:28:29 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Greatness and Pettiness

>Also, AE did one cigarette ad and felt horrible about it.  Petty spent his
>whole career in a sport dominated by tobacco advertising.

But he refuses to allow beer advertising on any of his cars.

Tom #2179

*****************************************************************
From Ric

We all draw our own lines.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:32:47 EDT
From:         Clyde Miller
Subject:      rim-shots

Actually I think that should sound like

"BUDDA-BOOM"

God, I love worthless trivia!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:59:23 EDT
From:         William Webster-Garman
Subject:      Search technique

>From Ben Barabas
>
> explain something to me please
> As I understand it,the island in question is uninhabited,right?
> Has there been any thought to defoliating by flame the island
> True is would consume any small items made of
> paper,rubber,wood but the major
> metal components <<SNIP>>

Oh my.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:04:59 EDT
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Greatness and Pettiness

All this talk of Richard Petty and AE doing television commercials opens
up an interesting avenue for the support of the TIGHAR mission. Why not
just set Ric up as the new "Marlboro Man", complete with TIGHAR hat....
That ought to bring in enough to fund a couple of trips.

Thomas Van Hare
"Drawing a Line in the Sand"

****************************************************************
From Ric

Line in the sand my -----.  We probably could have funded the project ten
times over with one call to Virginia Slims.  Or how about, "Hey Fred!  This
Bud's for you!"  All we'd have to do is get rid of all of our mirrors so that
we'd never have to look ourselves in the face.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:07:00 EDT
From:         Mike
Subject:      FN's assets

I was just reading some of the recent e-mails about AE and FN homes.  I
assume we know FN's last address.  Did anyone check probate records for lists
of assets?  Inventory lists or inheritance returns often list insurance
policies, claims, ets.  His executor/administrator may have made claims for
his equipment missing from flight, if insured.  Inventory lists might also
list those items depending on level of detail.

***************************************************************
From Ric

Jerry?  Ron?  How say ye?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:13:18 EDT
From:         J. Dipippi
Subject:      Re: Another Fred Goerner question

RIC, I KNOW THAT I AM A PAIN IN THE    TO YOU GUYS.
BUT HOW ABOUT THE MARINE ON SAIPAN CLAIMS HE SAW A PLANE THAT WAS TORCHED BY
A MAN IN A WHITE SHIRT AND HE SAID THAT IT WAS JAMES FORRESTAL SECRETARY OF
THE  NAVY.   ANY THING IS POSSIBLE.   THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT SEEM TO CARE IF
THIS MISTERY IS EVER SOLVED.
I STILL HAVE A GUT FEELING THAT THE GOVERNMENT KNOWS MORE THAN THEY ADMIT.
JUST LIKE PEARL HARBOR.  THEY LET ADM. KEMMBEL & GEN. SHORT BE SCAPE GOATS.
THEIR ARE SEVERAL BOOKSOUT THAT TELL THE HOLD STORY AND ITS NOT B.S.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Whatever you say.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:16:39 EDT
From:         Blake Herndon
Subject:      More curiouser & curiouser

I have been reading through the book "wings to the Orient" (Stan Cohen
1985) off & on during the last week  & it has been  quite interesting. The
book is a pictorial history of Pan Am's set up & operations to the Orient
in the mid 30's to the early 40's. It has been good insight into air
travel across the Pacific at that time & how little was really known about
doing it.  There are a few good pictures of Capt. Musick's crew on the
original M-130 survey flight in 1935 of which F.N. was navigator, but
being a "pictorial" history, FN is not mentioned in the limited text. (I
sure wish when those old photographs were taken that the photographers
would have thought to include background information on all their
subjects......Stuff like former residences, height & shoe sizes, why
certain things in their posession had specific numbers stenciled or hand
painted on them (even if they werent in their posession yet), social
behavior (rumored or not) etc...etc....)

Anyway.....Since things have been slightly left of topic lately (gremlins,
rim shots etc...) I thought I'd throw this in.

According to the book, in 1938 the Martin M-130 Hawaaian clipper
dissappeared enrout from Guam to, I believe Manilla. ( I dont have the
book with me to varify that at the moment) The plane simply vanished
without a trace. None of it, or its crew have ever been seen since.
Gremlins? I doubt it, but you never know. The one I remember seeing as a
kid on Twilight Zone sure looked capable of the task......YIKES!!!
What the book does hint at is that the Japanese were the prime suspects in
the dissappearance. The plane was carrying 2 million dollars to be
delivered to the Chinese for their war against Japan, & something was said
about the 130 having some design feature the Japanese were interested in
(kinda sounds like a Lockheed STORY I once read minus the 2 million dollar
part).

The Japanese were suspect because, earlier while the plane was at Alameda
2 Japanese nationals were caught inside the plane trying to sabatoge the
DF gear.

Has anyone ever seen any more information about this anywhere?
The consp. theory possibilities are endless with this one & some creative
forum member can probably even link this to AE &FN.....But  I'll leave
that to them.......

I just thought that since the forum is in kind of a relaxed, summer, off
topic mode waiting for the Niku Recon trip to happen I'd throw it out.
Indeed curiouser & curiouser.

God speed on the recon trip!
LTM (lost the Martin)
Blake H.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:35:48 EDT
From:         Clyde Miller
Subject:      Re: More curiouser & curiouser

I don't find it at all unusual that a plane carrying $2 million disappears
without a trace and it has nothing to do with the Japanese, the devil's
triangle, Gremlins or the lost continent of Atlantis.
A just for instance conversation:

"hey guys!  There's $2 million on this plane"
"Anybody got family?"
"Nobody?"
"Let's disappear!  They can blame it on the Japanese!"
"Hey, maybe they'll make a TV show out of it."
"What's TV?"
***************************************************************
From Roger Kelley 2112

2 million bucks?  In 1938 dollars?  And no one has heard from them since?
Sounds like the crew did a good job of covering their tracks.   Bet their
grandchildren are living a very comfortable life some where in darkest
Asia or South America.

Roger Kelley, #2112

****************************************************************
From Ric

We seem to have something of a consensus.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:39:15 EDT
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Search technique

> > As I understand it,the island in question is uninhabited,right?
> > Has there been any thought to defoliating by flame the island
> > True is would consume any small items made of
> > paper,rubber,wood but the major
> > metal components <<SNIP>>
>
> Oh my.

"Oh my" indeed!  Imaging the actual environmental impact plus the "image"
TIGHAR would collect if it were even attempted.  Yipe!

    - Bill

****************************************************************
From Ric

What burns on Niku is TIGHARs, not the island.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:43:01 EDT
From:         JT
Subject:      WABAC Machine...

"The Improbable History of Mr. Peabody"

     Intelligent white beagle Peabody & his brainy adopted son, Sherman,
transport themselves back in time to visit historical events through the
power of their WABAC machine.

"Tennessee Tuxedo & His Tales"

     Wisecracking penquin Tennesee Tuxedo & walrus friend Chumley
undertake to change the living conditions of the denizens of Megopolis
Zoo.  When insoluble situations arise, the pair visit their educator
friend, answer man Phineas J. Whoopee, who tackles their problems
scientifically & practically.

"Tooter Turtle"

     Mild-mannered Tooter Turtle's fantasies are fulfilled when his
lizard friend Mr. Wizard performs feats of legerdemain that trasports
the turtle back in time.  But Tooter invariably ends up pleading for the
Wizard to bring him back home when the dreams turn into nightmares.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks to you & Jeff Lenburg's "The Encyclopedia of Animated Cartoon
Series," I stand corrected & self-diagnosed.  I am no doubt a victim of
"Saturday Morning Cartoon Synaptic Crossover/Clogging"---too many
cartoons in my youth & since.

Let's strike up the band & play " TIGHAR Rag!"  Keep those cards &
letters & donations coming, folks!

Keep the faith & the laughs going during your trip this summer.

                           LTM,
                            JT

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Maybe we should rename the Earhart Project "Fractured Fairytales."
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:50:51 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: More curiouser & curiouser

The US Navy was sent out to reconnoiter the downed M-130, and found it the
next day: big oil patch.  If I remember correctly, it was found by planes,
then searched by ship, but I could be mistaken.  It was pretty clear to the
folks on the scene that it had an accident in the air, and was not due to
being shot down near Manilla.  Sorry, but this is yet another case with
excellent hindsight that folks want to ascribe to our Japanese colleagues.

On the other hand, in the written report, there was a reference to a
strange looking airplane hovering in the area that didn't have propellers,
was quite large, with NCC-1701D lettering on the upper fuselage.  No one
yet has determined what these markings meant...

*****************************************************************
From Jerry Hamilton To Blake H.

If you send me the dates of the flight that disappeared, I can check the
Oakland Trib. It would certainly have reported this incident, including the
snoopy Japanese, if it happened.

blue skies, -jerry
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:54:20 EDT
From:         Angelo
Subject:      Rim-shots

>From Clyde Miller
>
>Actually I think that should sound like
>
>"BUDDA-BOOM"

I thought it was " TA-DA-BOOM!

Ang.

******************************************************************
From Ric

I think we have a new record for the "Most Off-Topic Posting."
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:57:54 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Re: FN's assets

Yes, as near as I can tell. I checked the court records and what we have is
a copy of a Superior Court proceeding in which his wife, Mary Bea, filed to
become executor of his estate. This was granted to her on June 20, 1938.
There is no listing of assets. However, the court declared FN legally dead
and issued Letters Of Administration to her. That's all I have found in the
court files. If there is someplace else I should look, let me know.

blue skies, -jerry
****************************************************************

From Ron Dawson

Request has already been made - waiting to hear.

Ron 2126
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:09:04 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Admiral Day

I sent off a query to the Mahan Naval History list, and of course those
folks knew the answer:

"ADMIRAL DAY  was one of the "Sub Boats," relatively small freighters built
during the World War I emergency program by the Submarine Boat Corporation of
Newark, New Jersey.  One hundred and fifty of these ships were built, more
than of the famous "Hog Islanders" (which are the only American merchantmen
of the program that are generally remembered today).  The Sub boats had a
gross tonnage of about 3,300.

"The history of this ship and her sisters is given in considerable detail in
Mark Goldberg's "The Shipping Board's 'Agency Ships,' part I: The 'Sub
Boats,'" published by the American Merchant Marine Museum in 1994.

"ADMIRAL DAY's original name was SUTERMCO.  She was launched on 28 May 1920;
like most of other ships of the Emergency Fleet, she was completed well after
the war.  Like many of her sisters she had a tangled history with several
changes of ownership.  In 1931 the Portland California Steamship Company, a
subsidiary of Pacific Steam Ship Company--in turn related to the famous
Dollar Line, which became American President Lines--bought SUTERMCO and 21
other Sub Boats.  SUTERMCO and five other ships were chosen for the company's
Admiral Line, operating between British Columbia and California with calls in
Washington and Oregon; it was at this point that she was renamed.  The
Admiral Line went out of business sometime around 1934-1935, and the ship
remained mostly idle after that.

"After war broke out prices for ships rose.  ADMIRAL DAY changed hands several
times, on paper anyway, and in August 1940 ended up in the hands of an
Australian company, W.R. Carpenter Overseas Shipping, Ltd., of Sydney.  She
was registered in New Guinea and sailed from the West Coast for Australia.
Her cargo had not been loaded properly and on the initial leg of her voyage,
en route to Hawaii, the cargo continually shifted causing alarming lists.
She entered Honololu on 1 September 1940, and her cargo was properly stowed.
She sailed on the 2nd and her engines died.  After they were fixed she got
going again on the 11th.  A week later, on 18 September, she went ashore and
was wrecked on Canton Island.  Goldberg does not clearly say so, but it
sounds like the crew were all saved."

LTM,
Tom #2179

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Outstanding work.  Thank you Tom.  I wonder if the wreck was towed off and
salvaged or whether, by 1942, it had been reduced to just the debris that
JDipi saw.  In any event, we can now be certain that the wreck of the Admiral
Day was not the source of the castaway of Gardner Island whose bones were
found by Gallagher within days of when the Admiral Day was wrecked 200 miles
away on Canton.

I just love it when we come up with ANSWERS.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:21:27 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Last minute thoughts

Re: Locating the site of the bones, campfire, etc. found by Gallagher.

The plan of the survey of Niku has probably been discussed but I don't
remember.

Obviously Kanawa Point is high on the list.  I keep thinking of Gallagher's
saying the bone site was, "... on South East corner of island..."  I think
our best hope is that he thought of the atoll as consisting of separate
islands.  That suggests Tekibeia and the region just west of Bauareke
Passage.  Otherwise he was speaking of the Loran station site and there's
nothing left.

How closely has the area west of Bauareke Passage been examined in the past?
If not examined before, I presume it will be this time.  With the map we
have today, it a little hard to make a South East corner, near the lagoon
shore in the Tekibeia part of the island.  We have to hope it seemed
different to Gallagher in 1940.

Re: Coconut Crabs.

Those crabs have figured so much in the discussions here, I hope someone
will get some good pictures of them!

Incidently, Gallagher seemed to have no doubt but that the bones had been
scattered, and damaged, by the crabs.  Perhaps we really need look no
further for a bone scattering mechanism -- even dragging completely away
from the site. Who can say how near the rest of the bones may have been but
were not found in whatever area was clear enough to search?

****************************************************************
From Ric

We've done very little work in the area just west of Bauareke Passage.  We'll
take a good look on this trip.

Gallagher's various descriptions of the bone site are somewhat contradictory
which forces us to try to guess which part of which description doesn't mean
what it seems to mean.  If his statement that the site is "less than two
miles" from a stand of coconut palms, then the Aukaraime site where we found
the shoes is the best candidate.  But that would mean that when he said
"southeast corner" he was speaking very generally.  Hard to figure.

We have plenty of good pictures of coconut crabs but nobody seems to know if
they ever drag stuff off to eat it.  We should probably try another
experiment on this trip.  Last time the storm washed away our leg of lamb we
had laid out for the crabs.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:28:29 EDT
From:         Ted
Subject:      Search technique

> explain something to me please
> As I understand it,the island in question is uninhabited,right?
> Has there been any thought to defoliating by flame the island
> True is would consume any small items made of
> paper,rubber,wood but the major
> metal components <<SNIP>>

Yeah, and I can see the expedition team storming the beach each with
flamethrower at ready.  Certainly would make an interesting video.
Probably would sell lots of copies and Ric could get his star placed
on the sidewalk of Hollywood Boulevard.  Seriously, I do recall how
the graves of a lost patrol at Little Bighorn was discovered after a
brushfire but that happened naturally and not something true
archaelogists would ever consider.

Inflammably yours,
Ted
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:44:58 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: more curiouser and curiouser

<<Bet their grandchildren are living a very comfortable life some where in
darkest Asia or South America.>>

Oh, do you suppose this accounts for that funny big gated compound on the
north end of Nutiran?

****************************************************************
From Ric

You're trying to start trouble again.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:48:29 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Bone Scatter Experiment

Ric wrote:

<< We should probably try another experiment on this trip. >>

Definitely!

****************************************************************
From Ric

You're flying to Fiji tomorrow.  Perhaps you could round up a likely
candidate.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:35:29 EDT
From:         Hugh Graham
Subject:      FDR UC-43B found.

     Re the National Post of June 24/99:  A group led by Jeff Wallace
of Sudbury, Canada, has recovered from the pristine waters off
Manitoulin Island in Georgian Bay, Ontario, the US Army Air Force
Beechcraft UC-43B Staggerwing floatplane used to ferry battle plans
and vital war info to FDR, then US President, while he was on a
secret Ontario fishing vacation in Aug. 1943.  The plane caught fire
and sank after the pilot and co-pilot had escaped unharmed with
all vital documents in hand.

     No known photos of the event exist, but Graeme Mount, a history
professor at Laurentian U. retrieved from the FDR Archives in Hyde Park NY,
250 pages of doc about FDR's week-long stay at a private cottage
on Birch Island where he reeled in bass and pickerel.

     The Beechcraft will become the centrepiece of a multi-media
display on the presidential visit at the Little Current-Howland Centennial
Museum in Sheguiandah on Manitoulin Island.    LTM, HAG 2201.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:37:50 EDT
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Greatness and Pettiness

Ric Gillespie wrote:
> "Line in the sand my -----.  We probably could have funded the
> project ten times over with one call to Virginia Slims....

Ric --

I hope you know that I was just joking regarding this sort of corporate
sponsorship. In my other career, I run an ad agency and one of our
clients is none other than C. Everett Koop -- you know, the guy who put
the warning label on cigarettes and fights the cigarette companies
daily.

Thomas Van Hare

****************************************************************
From Ric

Shucks Tom, I knowed you was joshin'.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:56:34 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Clipper loss

<<If you send me the dates of the flight that disappeared, I can check the
Oakland Trib. It would certainly have reported this incident, including the
snoopy Japanese, if it happened.

blue skies, -jerry>>

It says here that the Martin M-130  NC-141417 "Hawaian Clipper" is listed
"missing" on 7/30/38. "The History of Pan American World Airways", by John
Turner, mentions the M-130 as "W/0  between Guam and Manilla 7/38"
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:00:09 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      search technique

<<Yeah, and I can see the expedition team storming the beach each with
flamethrower at ready.  Certainly would make an interesting video.
Probably would sell lots of copies and Ric could get his star placed
on the sidewalk of Hollywood Boulevard.  Seriously, I do recall how
the graves of a lost patrol at Little Bighorn was discovered after a
brushfire but that happened naturally and not something true
archaelogists would ever consider.>>

And don't forget to notify Greenpeace ! They'd love that ! I can see them
making a show out of that, trying to stop you come ashore, speeding across
the bows of your ship, and filming the blazing shambles, next distribute
their video free of charge to all TV stations worldwide. TIGHAR would be
famous worldwide overnight...

***************************************************************
From Ric

There's got to be a better way to get famous worldwide overnight.  Maybe we
could, like, find Amelia Earhart.

=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:01:53 EDT
From:         Mike
Subject:      Re: FN's assets

Since I don't know what state probate occured in it is difficult to
determine various probate requirements and what they may have been in 1938.
However, generally letters of administration mean there is something to
administer.  There should be an inventory and a closing report.  If it is a
state which collected inheritance taxes there should also be a tax return
detailing assets and values.  Traces can generally be made by case number
which should lead you to a file, probably microfilmed.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:08:57 EDT
From:         Margot Still
Subject:      Advice

Well Ric the time draws nigh.  My Mother made me quit saying I would sell a
kidney to go with you to Niku.  It's terrible being poor.  I am very new to
the Forum but I hope you guys have a very successful trip and remember to let
the rough side drag.

MStill

****************************************************************
From Ric

"Let the rough side drag?"  I'm intrigued.  Where did that come from?

Other great pieces of advice are:

"Pull back to make the houses get smaller and keep the blue side up."
(airline saying)

"Take a deep seat, a short hold, and a fer away look." (old cavalry saying)

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:13:00 EDT
From:         William Dohenyguy
Subject:      Fiji trip and FN

     Is Tom going to give the forum a day by day report of what he discovers
in Fiji or do we have to wait?
     Anything new on Fred. Were there numerous Vodka bottles in the New
Orleans residence or was he a Tea sipper?

William LTM and a safe journey to all.

*****************************************************************
From Ric

I'm sure Tom will try to make periodic reports, although not necessarily
daily.  It depends a lot on how difficult and expensive it is to get on line
in Fiji.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 16:41:28 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Fiji trip and FN

As it happens, I'm just checking email for the last time before heading for
the airport.  I'll try to send reports when I can, once we're up on email in
Fiji, but daily is probably a bit more than we can manage.  The Forum will
also understand that we'll need to be rather circumspect, both about how
things are going with the government offices by whose grace we'll be
searching through their closets and attics, and about what we find (if
anything).  But we'll get reports back whenever possible and politic.

LTM
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 16:48:02 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      More last minute thoughts

How much of a trick is it to cross the Bauareke Passage between Tekibeia and
Aukaraime?  With the village situated in Ritiati, and apparently extending
only part way into Noriti, it seems odd that they would have started
clearing so far from the village.  Might it be that a case can be made for
the "South Eeast corner" near the lagoon, and "less than two miles from a
stand of Coconut palms" being the same place -- Tekibeia, near the Bauareke
Passage?  Those coconut palms could have been anywhere from the Loran site
to the village site and be less than two miles from the Bauareke Passage.

Curiosity -- has the coral filled in the channel that was blasted through
the reef in 1963 to facilitate taking the villagers off the island?

Hey!  Have fun on Niku!  Remember, the worse it gets the more they like it!

************************************

From Pat, who is filling in for a day while Ric is busy with prep---

Bauareke Passage is pretty shallow and easy to wade across at low tide, not
like the main passage. I've done it, which means it's actually quite easy now
that I think of it, because I have short legs and a low tolerance for sharks
<G>.

The channel is not filled in at all; that part of the reef is dead, just
coral rock, not living coral as far as I know. It's the best way onto the
island; in good weather on a high tide you can motor right up to the sand
beach and get out dry shod.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 16:49:10 EDT
From:         Herman De Wulf
Subject:      Good wishes

From Belgium (at the wong side of the Atlantic) I wish the TIGHAR
expedition 1999 the best of luck. After all those years TIGHAR IS entitled to
some reward. Like find the airplane.

Blue skies. And calm seas.

                                                Herman

*******************************

Many thanks. *Especially* for the wishes for calm seas......

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 16:52:52 EDT
From:         Ben Bara
Subject:      Re: search technique

Hey Ric
I have two questions for you.
1. would something like ae or fn wallet with license found on the island  be
considered a smoking gun
2. Once AE and FN  remains are found,what would be the logical progression of
events following their discovery.
I too believe their remains will be found and possibly very soon,like JULY 99


Best of Luck
Ben

**********************************

A wallet or whatever with identifiable paperwork would indeed be a smoking
gun. It would leave a lot of questions, but we could be sure that the
wherewithal would be forthcoming to get them answered.

In the event of the discovery of human remains, our forensic anthropologist,
Karen Ramey Burns, would be in charge of the area. It would be managed like
an accident/crime scene for meticulous detail and maximum information. The
site would be secured, of course, and probably an immediate follow-on
expedition mounted to excavate and recover everything possible.

Thanks for your good wishes.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 16:54:00 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: search technique

>>From Ric
>
>There's got to be a better way to get famous worldwide overnight.  Maybe we
>could, like, find Amelia Earhart.

What??? Find Amelia Earhart??? You really are a dreamer, Ric. Didn't you
know she was Tokyo Rose? And Hirohito's mistress? And that she was cremated
and her ashes were spread over Mount Fuji?

Sheesh. Next you'll be trying to tell us Fred Noonan wasn't a drunk!

Tom #2179

*******************************

You keep uncovering all of our little plots!!

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 16:55:02 EDT
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: advice

>"Let the rough side drag?"  I'm intrigued.  Where did that come from?
>
>Other great pieces of advice are:
>
>"Pull back to make the houses get smaller and keep the blue side up."
>(airline saying)
>
>"Take a deep seat, a short hold, and a fer away look." (old cavalry saying)

Where you're going, Ric, I think this one is most apropos:

"Keep your powder dry."

Tom #2179
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 17:00:05 EDT
From:         Bob Brown
Subject:      Email from the expedition

> From William Dohenyguy
>
>      Is Tom going to give the forum a day by day report of what he discovers
> in Fiji or do we have to wait?

This is an interesting idea.  I have followed other expeditions, with
mucho dineros no doubt, that post frequent updates to their websites.  I
think this could be good publicity which could possibly contribute to
additional fund raising.  I receive frequent email from a friend while
at sea. She works on an research ship in remote places down south of
Australia and seems to have no trouble getting email out from the ship
during extended cruises.  I have no experience myself in this area but
based on the email I get from her it seems to be pretty routine.
Perhaps you could post updates to this list and someone could also post
them to the web site.  Just a thought.

Bob

*********************************

The technology does exist to transmit email directly from ship to network...
it's called a satellite telephone. It works great.

It works at $10 per minute.

Plus there's the phone itself, and the general charges, and so on..... Great
if you are a NSF-funded mega expedition, not so hot for us.

In general, we have found that it works better for the gang to just be ...
gone ... until they get back, other than relayed radio to email or radio to
telephone messages on SSB. Too much temptation for security breaches, and
also as above----pricey as all git-out.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 17:01:37 EDT
From:         William Dohenyguy
Subject:      Niku trip

     I just remembered what a Forum member said sometime back. Something
about finding an object under 2 meters of sand. Will the metal detectors
your taking with you locate an object that far below the sand?

William LTM and carry a big shovel

***********************************

Our metal detectors will find a sizable object (say, a metal culvert under a
logging road) at around two meters. Of course, the smaller the object, the
closer it needs to be. Something the size of a quarter, you're talking more
like six inches maximum.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:48:09 EDT
From:         Jay Clark
Subject:      Fred Noonan family

Jerry:   Sorry, Delta's records do not include family records, and I
personally never heard anything about his family.  Regards
Jay Clark
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:52:08 EDT
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      Greenpeace

Herman wrote:

>And don't forget to notify Greenpeace ! They'd love that ! I
>can see them making a show out of that, trying to stop you come ashore,
>speeding across the bows of your ship, and filming the blazing shambles,
>next distribute their video free of charge to all TV stations worldwide.
>TIGHAR would be famous worldwide overnight... 

  Do I detect a certain political perspective, Herman?

  You don't work for the French DGSE ( Direction Generale de la Securite
Exterieure ) or have friends on Corsica do you?

Daryll

****************************************************************
From Ric

There are no political perspectives on the forum.  We're all extreme right
wing Liberal centrists.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:54:16 EDT
From:         Margot Still
Subject:      "Let the rough side drag"

This is an old country expression that maybe you boys up north haven't heard
before now.  It simply means with the rough part of your trip dragging you
should have a smooth trip up top.  Or whatever application you wish to apply
it to.

LTM,
MStill

****************************************************************
From Ric

Oh.. I see....sort of.... I think.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:55:30 EDT
From:         Shirley Walter
Subject:      Re: Fiji trip and FN

Tom;

May you have MUCH LUCK and not be given too hard a time by anyone, official
or otherwise.   Will look forward to any news, as will the forum - I'm sure.

LTM
Shirley Walter 2299
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:48:40 EDT
From:         Shirley Walter
Subject:      Re: Good wishes

Ric and all who are going -

God Speed and have a safe and productive trip.  We (the forum) know there's
"stuff" there to be found and that you will make much headway this time.

I, for one,  only wish I could be with you.  But, we will be there in spirit
and thought, pulling for you every minute.  I too, wish you calm seas, and
will anxiously await your reports and your safe return.

LTM
Shirley 2299

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks Shirley.  All of us on the team are keenly aware that we are only the
representatives of all the TIGHAR members who have made it possible for us to
do this work.  We'll do our best to do a good job.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:50:08 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Re: Fred Noonan family

>Jerry:   Sorry, Delta's records do not include family records, and I
>personally never heard anything about his family.  Regards
>Jay Clark

Jay,
Thanks for the recollection and reply.

blue skies, -jerry
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:51:44 EDT
From:         Angelo
Subject:      Metal Detectors

>Our metal detectors will find a sizable object (say, a metal culvert under a
>logging road) at around two meters. Of course, the smaller the object, the

Things have not changed. I worked on developing such electromagnetic
detectors around 1960. My main sensitivity statement (transmitter and
receiver coil on a 6' pole) was "a Volkswagen at about 15 feet"; closer for
smaller objects. Working frequency was about 100 kHz. My conclusion today
is that such near-field electromagnetic induction detectors are limited to
such ranges. Larger distances can be obtained ONLY by both addressing
larger objects and using a longer baseline between transmitter coil and
receiver coil in looking for a whole airplane or wing or fuselage.

Thus, my recent 'concern' that you might use radar of the aircraft
radar-altimeter variety.

Ang
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:58:53 EDT
From:         Patrick Robinson
Subject:      At Sea E-mail

It's interesting that the discussion has turned to
at sea e-mail...I just received a catalog from a
company in California...They are called Software
Systems Consulting...www.ssccorp.com...

They sell the entire kit to enable you to send
e-mail at sea..It costs only $ 149.95...

In addition to the kit you have to subscribe to Mobile
Marine Radio (who acts as the service provider)...They
lists the typical fees for a 66 word message as
$ 1.78...Which is pretty cheap...

The coverage area for P-Sea Mail(tm) appears to
be all the way to Australia (in the Pacific) and as
far east as the entire Med and southern Africa (in the
Atlantic)...

I don't have any connection with this company other
than having bought other items from them...

Here is the blurb from their catalog...

"Stay connected to your family, friends and business while
afloat with P-Sea Mail.  this product allow you to send
and receive E-mail and Faxes through coastal HF radio
stations with your IBM PC or compatible computer and marine
SSB radio transceiver.  Gateway stations allow you to
send and receive E-mail from Internet, AOL and Compuserve
subscribers.

Modern modem technology allow you to reliably use inexpensive
SSB shortwave radio to send and receive electronic mail at a
fraction of the cost of satellite communications systems.  You
don't have to wait for tomorrow's technology, connectivity
is here today.  The enclosed startup kit will make it
easy for you to sign up with Mobile Marine Radio, as
your service provider, and will even help process your FCC
Application.  You can be connected the same day you
open the box.  P-Sea Mail has everything you need to get
started:

        Radio Modem
        Electronic Messaging Software
        FCC Selcal License Application
        User's Manual

etc, etc, etc..."

Hope this helps...

Pat (forgot my number)

Patrick N. Robinson

****************************************************************
From Ric

Sounds like something we may want to look into for future trips, but having
seen and heard how tenuous even the SSB connection is from way out there I
would be very surprised if some kind of data link via that medium was
anything but a major pain in the butt.

*****************************************************************
From Bob Brown

> The technology does exist to transmit email directly from ship to network...
> it's called a satellite telephone. It works great.
>
> It works at $10 per minute.

$10 a minute!!! Ouch.  Your point is well made Pat.  Thanks for the
feedback.  My friend who sent me email from the research ship did not
work for NSF however, she worked for a University in Sidney. I don't
imagine them rolling in money.  She is moving to the states at this
exact moment or I would email her and ask her what setup they had.
Regardless of that I wish God speed to Ric and the expedition members
and "Fair winds and following seas."

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Jun 1999 08:07:14 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      Re: "Let the rough side drag"

Gentlemen---I still dont understand the expression...Waitin' for someone to
'splain it to me'

Jim Tierney

****************************************************************
From Ric

Jim, the problem seems to be that we northern boys can't comprehend the logic
in dragging an object in such a way that the more resistant surface is in
contact with the ground.  It's apparently a southern thing.  It was, however,
offered with the best of wishes and we deeply appreciate the sentiment even
if we are too dense to understand the advice.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Jun 1999 08:18:57 EDT
From:         William Dohenyguy
Subject:      Horrible thought

     I just got a horrible thought. What if they find AE and FN? What will
we do? I guess there is always the "Lost Dutchman Mine".

William, LTM. good luck boys and girls, smooth sailing, calm seas, and may
the wind be always at your back.

****************************************************************
From Ric

I wouldn't lose a lot sleep over it.  We've never gone out there without high
expectations and so far all we've found are some scraps of aluminum and a
shoe that you can't even wear.  Each time we tell ourselves that we have more
information this time than we've ever had (which is true) and we reason that
it gives us a higher probability of making a dramatic find (which seems like
it should be true).  But the nature of searching is that you don't find
something until you look in the right place.  So far we have not looked in
the right place.  If we knew where the right place was, we'd look there.  But
we don't know, so we have to guess.  Maybe this time we'll guess right.  If
not, we'll at least learn about another place where it isn't, and next time
we'll look some place different.  Ain't this a hell of a way to make a living?

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:30:31 EDT
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Advice

Motorcycle cops like to say, "keep the greasy side down"
ltm
jon 2266

****************************************************************
From Ric

So do short-order cooks.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:32:03 EDT
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      More good wishes

     I simply want to take this opportunity to wish you and all of our
colleagues who are about to embark on the Niku Expedition a very hearty
"Godspeed," and the very earnest wish that all of your hopes for this
mission will be fulfilled! Be safe, and make history!!

Most Sincerely,
Eugene M. Dangelo, Ph.D., N3XKS, # 2211   :)

*****************************************************************
From Ellie

Hi Ric & all, What a great gift to the 21st. century, to solve one of the
greatest misteries of the 20th. Good luck and safe voyage, Ellie

*****************************************************************
From Mark Cameron 2301

Ric, Tom, and all the other adventurers --

Ditto all that Shirley wrote, I have a real good feeling about this trip

LTM
Mark Cameron #2301 (and proud of it)

***************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks guys.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:44:26 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Niku trip

The first time through on this caught you busy with preparations.  My thanks
to Pat for answering my questions.  I'd still be very interested in your
thoughts relative to my attempt to make a case for the site Gallagher tried
to describe being the lagoon-side corner of Tekibeia, adjacent to Bauareke
Passage.

My original posting was:

>With the village situated in Ritiati, and apparently extending
>only part way into Noriti, it seems odd that they would have started
>clearing so far from the village.  Might it be that a case can be made for
>the "South East corner," near the lagoon, and "less than two miles from a
>stand of Coconut palms" being the same place -- Tekibeia, near the Bauareke
>Passage?  Those coconut palms could have been anywhere from the Loran site
>to the village site and be less than two miles from the Bauareke Passage.
>
>Hey!  Have fun on Niku!  Remember, the worse it gets the more they love it!

****************************************************************
From Ric

Tekibeia, near the Bauareke Passage does fit the "southeast corner"
description but only if you assume that Gallagher thought of Niku as two
islands which, technically speaking, it is.  We just don't have any confirmed
example of him describing the atoll that way.

You're not correct that "Those coconut palms could have been anywhere...".
We know exactly where the only stands of cocos were prior to P.I.S.S.  They
are well documented in the official reports and quite visible in the 1938
aerial photography done for the New Zealand survey.  There were five small
groves.  Three in Ritiati near where the village was established and two on
Nutiran.  In other words, all of the cocos were up at the west end of the
island so, if we are to believe Gallaghers statement, the bone site can't be
beyond two miles from the village (which eliminates the extreme southeast end
of the island).  One might also argue that the statement (less than two
miles) implies that the distance is more than one mile.  That would eliminate
Kanawa Point, leaving only the area you're talking about (the east end of
Tekibeia) and the west end Aukaraime (where we found the shoes).

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:46:10 EDT
From:         J Dipippi
Subject:      Re: Metal Detectors

IF YOU GET TO CANTON WITH THE METAL DETECTORS CHECK EVERY RISE IN THE TERRAIN
GOOD LUCK TO ALL YOU GUYS BRING SOME GOOD NEWS HOME

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks.  We'll sure try.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:47:15 EDT
From:         Bob Lee
Subject:      Re: At Sea E-mail

To:  Ric and all

From Hong Kong,

Have a safe and successful trip.  Also I will look into the Sea E-Mail as
this is an area of interest to me.

Regards Bob Lee
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:02:18 EDT
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      Even more good wishes

Smooth Sailing, and I really mean SMOOTH

Ron 2126

**************************************************************
From Ken Feder

Hey Ric, Tom et al.:

The best revenge ain't living well. It's being right. Good luck. Enjoy
the weather (ha).

Ken Feder
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:05:58 EDT
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Niku Recon

May The Great Poobah allow you to throw your darts quickly,
painlessly, and on schedule.

        LTM, who is envious (about the trip, not "throwing darts")
        Dennis McGee
        #0149CE
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:04:33 EDT
From:         Mike Everette
Subject:      The Trip

This probably is a dumb thought, but before you rule out any spot on the
island, of course check the prevailing winds.  She would more than likely
have landed into the wind if at all possible, and this may determine on
which end of the island the aircraft ended up.

WHEN... not "If"... you find the wreck, if the radios are anywhere near
intact, take lots of pictures.  Note any nomenclature plates, and to what
frequency any dials may be set, if they are still readable (which might be
doubtful)... also where the various wires to the antenna posts on the
receivers go... if any of these things survived all this time.  Try not to
move or turn anything without documenting it first.

Like someone else said:  I have a good feeling about this trip.

73 es Best DX

Mike E. #2194

*****************************************************************
From Ric

Well, we'll have lots of film.  All we'll need is something to take pitchers
of.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:19:59 EDT
From:         Jim Van Hare
Subject:      TIGHAR address


Where should I send a check for my contribution to the fund, for Niku IIII?
And while I'm at it I might as well become a member as well.

Dumb question, I know --- but I'll bet if you give me an address and publish this
note on the forum you'll get some others to send checks as well.  In my practice,
we find that enclosing a self-addressed envelope with a statement for services
rendered results in prompt payment.  So an address right on the forum, rather than
asking folks to go to the web site and find where to send a check, might make it
easier for guys like me who say to themselves. "I ought to send Ric a check, so I
guess I'll have to hit the web site to find out how/where.  I'll do that tomorrow
for sure . . .  "

Lots of tomorrows have gone by and I haven't yet checked the web site to find out
how or where.

"Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in its petty pace from day to day,
etc."  Was that Shakespeare?  And did I get it right from memory??

Jim Van Hare
***************************************************************

From Ric

Macbeth.  You got it right.  In the theater it's considered bad luck to quote
from "the Scottish play" but since you didn't know that, it doesn't count.

The address is:

TIGHAR
2812 Fawkes Drive
Wilmington, DE  19808

How about:

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;  Or close up the wall
with our English dead.
In peace nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility;
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the TIGHAR.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:24:07 EDT
From:         Margot Still
Subject:      One More Time

Ok you guys, this is not a difficult concept.  If you 'let the rough side
drag' then very shortly you don't have a rough side anymore!  Smooth sailing
on both sides-get it?  It eludes me that you can discuss flamethrowers on the
beach but have trouble with a simple country expression!  Did we all get our
pilots license from the same place?  Do you want to go a few rounds of "let
it run loose on the pulley"?  I'm not making fun, I think you guys are the
best!  Bring back treasures!

LTM,
MStill

****************************************************************
From Ric

Got it.  Thanks.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:33:53 EDT
From:         Mike R
Subject:      Re: Horrible thought

Re: the Lost Dutchman, I think that's been done... at least, someone found
a pretty amazing underground mine with a cleverly hidden entrance right
where ol' Jacob used to disappear. Played out, tho. Maybe we could look
for the Victorio Peak treasure - see "100 Tons of Gold".

Sod layers used to have a saying: "Green side up"

****************************************************************
From Bill Leary

> From William (dohenyguy)
>I just got a horrible thought. What if they find AE and FN? What will
> we do? I guess there is always the "Lost Dutchman Mine".

I'd like to see Operation Sepulchre moved up a notch or two in priority.

However, I suspect that even were the plane AND remains located there would
still be quite a lot of work to be done.

    - Bill
****************************************************************
From Ric

Indeed there would.  The discovery of the plane and/or the bones would merely
be confirmation that this is WHERE it happened.  Finding out as much as
possible about WHAT happened would be the next stage inthe project.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:00:09 EDT
From:         Clyde Miller
Subject:      Lost Dutchman

Whoa!    Detail please on the Lost Dutchman mine please!!!  Let's not go off
half cocked about this non-aviation, non-Earhart related mystery.  What
information, where, who, when.....This could throw my expedition into the
Superstition mountains this october into a turmoil.  I would have to fall
back on my Lottery ticket option to get rich quick.  I've got the mules
hired, the digging gear, the hat, the secret map, the Old Apache with
details, everything...now you tell me they found the mine!!!!!!  Next thing
is you'll tell me they found the USS Monitor!!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:05:53 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Electra Models

In all the hubub I think I forgot to mention that the production prototype of
the Electra models is in and looks GREAT.  Production is now underway and
pre-ordered models should be ready for delivery in four to six weeks.

You can see photos of the prototype at http://www.tighar.org/model.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:44:54 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      Macbeth, Shakespeare and Amelia

<<Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;  Or close up the wall
with our English dead.
In peace nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility;
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the TIGHAR.>>

Ric-Bravo--Well said--My son...

You have a talent for the prose.........

Good luck on the trip-Fair winds and smooth seas...
Jim Tierney
***************************************************************
From Ric

Just quoting a real writer.  (Few people know that TIGHAR is the Elizabethan
spelling of tiger, probably because it's not true.)

**************************************************************

From Dustymiss

Now you're in my element - I've been doing professional theatre for over 20
years and I am a firm believer that it's bad luck to say the name or quote
from the Scottish Play - but the bad luck applies ONLY if you quote from it
while you, yourself, are in a theatre - and since I doubt you write your
e-mail from a theatre, the safety of the new TIGHAR voyage is preserved -

However, if you did write that e-mail from inside a theatre, let me know and
I'll give you the theatrical anecdote to stop bad luck from befalling you
(Yes, there is an anectdote to reverse the bad luck from quoting the Scottish
Play in a theatre - as a matter of fact I know of two anecdotes).

But, then again - Amelia quoted from the Scottish Play in one of her books -
"Receive what cheer you may - The night is long that never finds the day."  (
I can't remember now which book -  but I could find it, if needed) and look
where it got her - And I'd stay away from Hamlet, too if I were you - as, on
July 1st, 1937 she quoted;  "Denmark's a prison" , while on Lae - :>

Love to Mother (who never wanted me to go into theatre to begin with) and
much success to the New Niku Expedition.

"I see you stand like greyhounds upon the strip, Straining upon the start.
The game's afoot: Follow your spirit; and upon the charge Cry 'God for Harry
England and St. George"  (and the TIGHAR crew) - HENRY V ACT III , Scene i.

****************************************************************
From Ric

Well THAT'S a relief.  No, I'm not writng from a theatre (although sometimes
this office feels like one).  I would, however, be interested in knowing the
antidote.  Can't be too careful.

Blow wind! Come wrack!  At least we'll die with harness on our back!
(Macbeth, Act V, Scene 5)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:52:00 EDT
From:         Debbra Johnson
Subject:      More good feelings

Although I don't post much, I read the forum details daily.  I just wanted to
wish all of you a very safe trip and look forward to reading about all the
great things you find!  I have a good feeling about this one!  Best of luck
and smooth sailing!

Debbra Johnson
#2164
****************************************************************
From Ric

Thank you Debbra.  You're about the tenth person to say that you "have a good
feeling about this one."  Sure hope you guys are right.

****************************************************************
From Saturn592

The intrest in your trip is not just in this country.

I correspond with missionary friends in Africa and they are very
interested in your work and are looking forward to hearing about you
upcoming trip.

God Speed======

LTM

****************************************************************
From Ric

That's really nice.  After all, the lady disappeared on a world flight......
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:23:51 EDT
From:         Christian
Subject:      Off-topic, but what the heck...

Moin friends

In one of the last digests someone asked about advances made in the Operation
Sepulcre topic.

I have found a website, where interested people may put a nose in.

If someone has problems with the german writing, contact me.

The adress is:

http://schatzsucher.de/olga/under/Kauffering.html

or the whole:

http://schatzsucher.de

To Ric and co.:
Safe trip, hope you find as much as possible.

Christian