Date:         Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:53:45 EST
From:         Bill Leary
Subject:      Re: Lump in Throat Dept.

>> I am a 15 year old high school student.  For the past few...>>

I'm involved in a couple of other historic groups and programming groups. I've found that age is rarely a deciding factor in passion, commitment or competence.

The only thing that age really gives you is more time to have done your homework.

It also, unfortunately, gives you the chance to get fossilized in your convictions.

    - Bill
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Nov 1998 12:51:33 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: New Canton Engine info

Forest, as a matter of interest, do you know when helicopters (or something) from Kanton (presumably) DID go to Gardner in connection with the missile firings?  I'm looking at the sketch in my 1989 field notebook of the plaque we found on an aluminum mast near the old Loran site -- a crest with a geometric design at the top, an obscured area that probably contained some kind of wording toward the bottom, and then at the very bottom a scroll with the words "Space And Missile Test Center" on it.  I'm not questioning Tom Lawrence's recollection; just wondering when space-people DID go to Niku.

LTM
Tom King
***************************************************************

From Ric

I can help out some.  Years ago, Roger Clapp (the birdman) let us copy slides he had taken during his various visits to Gardner.  Being a scientist, his slides were carefully dated.

He had some from October of 1963, including one that showed the "native village" (he's an ornithologist, not an anthropologist).  Another slide showed their ship offshore.  They came by boat.

The next batch was dated July 1966.  One of the shots was taken at sea level "from off the west shore."  Obviously, they came by boat that time too.  And, of course, both the 1963 and 1966 trips predated the arrival of SAMTEC and the helicopters.

The next, and most extensive, batch was from March 1975.  These are the only aerial views in Clapp's collection and some of them clearly show a second helicopter.  There is also a shot of their campsite, so it would seem that they were dropped off and later picked up.  What I can't see in these photos is any sign of the mast and the placard that now stands down at the southeastern tip.  I also don't see the 55 gallon drums of JP-4 fuel that we found down there.  It may be that Clapp's aerial views were taken upon arrival at the island.  It does seem odd though that the mast was erected as late as 1975.  By that time the SAMTEC project was about wrapped up.

LTM,
Ric
**************************************************************

From Craig Fuller

Ric,

Based on this new (anecdotal) evidence, I think a trip to Canton before Gardner is the next move to excavate the engine. I remember a debate a while back on that issue, but can't remember the final outcome.

Craig Fuller
Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research
AAIR                   www.sonic.net/azfuller
***************************************************************

From Ric

We decided that the next step is a research trip to Tarawa and Fiji, followed by a return to Kanton if that still seemed warranted, but the main focus should remain on the expedition to Niku.  I don't see any reason to change that.

****************************************************************
From Simon #2120

Ric wrote:-

>But we can't go shifting our search without having better
>evidence against Niku than we have for it.

Well done Forest - excellent work.

Cummon Ric, don't be dismissive of the engine, now that it doesn't seem to have come from Niku after all.  Whether evidence for or against Niku, it's still strong evidence.

I can only repeat arguments for the engine's importance I made last time the engine was brought up.

Bruce's engine report may be anecdotal, but its got to be the best and strongest lead  - by far - to physical, nonanecdotal evidence which can be proven beyond doubt to be from the lost flight.

It's one helluva loose end.

LTM
Simon #2120
***************************************************************

From Ric

I have to disagree with you here.  This points up the most important aspect of our investigation - the evaluation of possible evidence.  It's the one thing that makes us different from all the rumor-chasers.

Everybody loves a good story - myself included - and the Saga of the Canton Engine is a duesy, as are the Tales of Saipan, and the Legend of the Niku Bones.  Good stories are worth investigating.  Sometimes they turn out to be true.  Sometimes they don't.  No real evidence has ever turned up to support the Tales of Saipan, but the Legend of the Niku Bones has, to our own astonishment, now been verified with contemporaneous written documents. Building on that evidence, modern scientific re-analysis of the historical data has significantly increased the liklihood that the remains found on Gardner were Earhart's.  THAT is our best and strongest lead - by far- that could lead to physical evidence which can be proven beyond doubt to be from the lost flight.  The preponderance of evidence - documentary, physical, and anecdotal - for the flight having ended at Nikumaroro is now so strong that, should it be established with hard documentation that Bruce could not have ever been to Gardner, it would be a strong indication that whatever engine he recovered from wherever could not have been Earhart's.

Is that clinging foolishly to a pet theory?  I don't think so.  I think it is weighing the available evidence based upon sound standards of relative credibility.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Nov 1998 12:56:08 EST
From:         Dan
Subject:      Air photo software

I just found this, and thought that someone on the forum may be able to make more use of it than I could.   Dan

>Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:58:58 +0100
>From: Irwin Scollar
>Subject: #1:  ARCH-L Software (89 lines)
>
>                             ANNOUNCING
>     Airphoto - A WinNT/Win95 Program for the Geometric Processing of
>                       Archaeological Airphotos
>
>AirPhoto makes orthophotos from scanned extreme obliques or verticals and
>superimposes them on scanned maps in various ways. Color or black and white
>images of a number of formats can be read, or an image can be obtained
>directly from a scanner driven by the program. Up to four maps may be
>combined to obtain a result for pictures which show data contained within
>more than one map. Photomosaics may be made from multiple color or black
>and white images. AirPhoto also offers a selection of full color image
>processing routines and use of an unlimited number of control and calibration
>points. No error-prone numerical input is required for control information.
>
>Standards:
>Image input/output formats may conform any one of the following standards:
>Windows Bitmap (.bmp), Tagged Image File Format (.tif), with or without
>compression, Jpeg (.jpg) with smoothing and compression control, Png (.png),
>Targa (.tga) or Pcx (.pcx). Scaled grayscale or color output for all Windows
>compatible printers is also supported. TWAIN compatible scanners are
>supported.
>
>Transformations:
>A choice of transformation options is offered including projective, terrain
>height modified projective and bi-cubic polynomial for satellite or scanner
>imagery.
>
>Interpolation:
>There are three output image interpolation options: Nearest Neighbor, Bi-
>Linear and Bi-Cubic Spline, offering increasing output image detail in
>exchange for modest increases in computation time.
>
>Calibration:
>AirPhoto offers calibrated mapped output in 27 national and international
>coordinate systems. When an output image has been calibrated, the position of
>the mouse cursor is show in in the units of the chosen grid system in a
status
>bar at the bottom of the image. A file with the information required by a
>Geographic Information System is written containing the parameters
>which each of three currently supported types of GIS require namely:
>ArcInfo/View, MapInfo and Idrisi.
>
>All grid systems can be converted to and from GPS latitude / longitudes or
>coordinates may be displayed directly in GPS lat/lon. Datum transformation
>between all systems via a GPS intermediate step is available.
>
>Computation speed:
>Transforming a 2500x1500 pixel color image to a 2500x2500 pixel
>image took 4 seconds on a 200 Mhz Pentium Pro with Nearest Neighbor
>interpolation.
>
>Machine and operating system requirements:
>A 486, Pentium, Pentium Pro, Pentium II processor with at least 32MB
>memory and Windows NT 3.51/4.0 or Windows 95/98. A display with at least
>800x600x256 colors.
>
>Where to get it:
>
>from the Web:
>
>http://www.uni-koeln.de/~al001/basp.html         {Cologne, Germany}
>http://wings.buffalo.edu/anthropology/BASP       {Univ. at Buffalo, USA}
>http://borealis.lib.uconn.edu/basp/basp.html     {Univ. of Connecticut,
Storrs,
>USA}
>http://super3.arcl.ed.ac.uk/baspmirror/basp.html {Univ. of Edinburgh,
Scotland}
>
>via ftp:
>ftp.uni-koeln.de /pc/basp                      {Cologne, Germany}
>ftp super3.arcl.ed.ac.uk /ftp/pub/baspmirror   {Edinburgh, Scotland}
>
>How to install it:
>AirPhoto is contained in two files, AirFoto1.zip, AirFoto2.zip.
>Test data is contained in AirFoto3.zip.
>
>After downloading the files airfoto*.zip, extract the content of
>AirFoto1..3.zip with any PkZip compatible program to a scratch directory. See
>the file Readme.Txt which is contained in Airfoto1.zip for full details.
>
>What does it cost?
>
>AirPhoto is a non-profit shared cost program whereby each registered user
>shares a small part of the cost of its production and maintenance. No charge
>for programming time is made. The introductory permanent registration fee is
>DM 418 (about US$ 250). A 30 day / 30 run free trial may be used to evaluate
>the program before registering it. Registered users of Winbasp Version 5 will
>be able to use an AirPhoto access code for the upcoming Version 6 without
>additional charge.
>
>Irwin Scollar

=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:10:51 EST
From:         Dave
Subject:      Re: Riddle of the Shoes

Let me try again, sir.  I realize the vast area to be searched. I also recognize that any search for an object that small will require both men and machines to endure tropical climates for weeks on end.  You cited the Titanic. An excellent example of sea bottom research in harsh climates, using the latest technology. It took literally years to find the great ship, employing SONAR and other devices. And the Titanic's position was known!  If you are going to find Amelia's aircraft, you will need all these resources, and you will need them for long periods of time. This is why funding is so critical. The reseach you have completed thus far will be invaluable in creating a localized region to begin your search.  Ric, I wish I had a billion dollars to spend looking for that airplane. But I don't.  It may take two years to survey the grid, and catalogue the many other hulks, shipwrecks, and debris hidden in the ocean depths. I believe that the organizations from which you attempted to gain funding realize this fact, and are unwilling to invest in what is tantamount to "looking for a needle in a haystack". TIGHAR would do well to realize this fact, too.  I can readily accept the need to believe that the meager scraps of evidence you possess are so important to your cause, but you cannot tailor evidence such as this to advance your theory.

***************************************************************
From Ric

We need to raise about 1.4 million dollars in order to not only thoroughly test the hypotheses we have developed about events on Nikumaroro, but to also develop, produce and distribute a first-class educational program for elementary, middle and high school students based upon our investigation.  You seem to suggest that we should reject what you term the "meager scraps" of evidence which are the result of ten years and roughly 1.6 million dollars of research, and instead attempt to raise what would surely be the hundreds of millions of dollars it would take to perform a search that would dwarf anything ever attempted by anyone anywhere.

I somehow think that we're not going to agree on this, but I do appreciate your attempts to make me see the light.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:14:35 EST
From:         Ric
Subject:      St. Exupery news (long)

Here's the latest on ol' Antoine, courtesy of Kenton Spading 1382CE.  Some of the ethical issues here are of particular interest.

Reuters, 29-OCT-98

MARSEILLE, France (Reuters) - An underwater explorer vowed Thursday to find the wrecked World War II airplane of Antoine de Saint-Exupery despite misgivings on the part of the French writer's heirs.

Henri-Germain Delauze has been scouring the Mediterranean for a month since a silver bracelet bearing Saint-Exupery's name and a piece of metal believed to be part of his P-38 Lightning were caught in a trawler's net off the French port of Marseille.

Delauze told Europe 1 radio his ship, equipped with a sonar and mini-submarine, would keep exploring an area 20 miles long by 10 miles wide for two more months.

Saint-Exupery, best known for his classic children's book "The Little Prince," disappeared in July 1944 after taking off from Corsica on a spy mission over Nazi-occupied southern France. His plane was believed to have crashed or been shot down at sea.

Heirs of the writer said his late mother, Marie de Saint-Exupery, had always opposed a search for the body.

"He is very well wherever he is. We do not want the sea to be ploughed in order to find him," said Saint-Exupery's nephew, Jean-Ginaud d'Agay. "We have not received any prior notice of the search and no one has asked for our authorization. We find this slightly odd and scandalous," he said.

Delauze said he was searching for the body because he was a keen flyer and admirer of Saint-Exupery, a legendary figure in France as a writer and pioneer aviator.

"I just want to understand. I will not touch the plane and I will return the bracelet (to the family)," he said.

Delauze, a veteran of underwater searches, said sea currents in the area were very weak, and he ridiculed speculation that the bracelet could have been swallowed by a fish and spat out hundreds of miles from the wreck.

He said he was scanning the sea floor at a depth of 800 feet. His concern was that the wreckage could have been dragged by a trawler's nets over the edge of the continental shelf and plunged to a depth of 8,200 feet.

Saint-Exupery, who pioneered dangerous mail routes over the Andes mountains and across the Sahara, wrote such classics as "Southern Mail," "Night Flight," and "Flight to Arras."

Locals from a Mediterranean village say they fished a pilot's corpse out of the sea three months after Saint-Exupery disappeared. The author's family always have refused to allow the body, which was buried in a nearby cemetery, to be exhumed for tests.


Fisherman's Find Evokes ''Little Prince'' Author
Reuters, 28-OCT-98

MARSEILLE, France, Oct 28 (Reuters) - A fisherman has found a bracelet in the sea believed to have belonged to French author Antoine de Saint-Exupery, who disappeared while flying a solo spy mission over the Mediterranean in 1944.

Saint-Exupery, best known for his classic children's book "The Little Prince," was on a photo reconnaissance sortie for the Allies at the time of his disappearance. Discovery of the bracelet has sparked a fresh search for his lost P-38 Lightning plane and renewed the controversy over whether or not his body was ever recovered.

Fisherman Jean-Louis Bianco told reporters on Wednesday he found the small silver bracelet at the end of last month, not far from Marseille port.

"My second-in-command was about to pull in the fish when he tells me, look, there's a bracelet caught up in a wrapper. I put it in my pocket and carry on working," Bianco said.

Later, after cleaning it up, Bianco found the name Antoine Saint-Exupery engraved on the metal, along with that of the writer's Argentine wife, Consuelo. The name and address of Saint-Exupery's U.S. publisher was also written into the silver.

"I told myself, you're dreaming, you're dreaming, because the sea is very big and a bracelet is very small," Bianco said. He handed the find over to a firm which specialises in underwater research. It has started trawling the area where the bracelet was netted.

Saint-Exupery is a legendary figure in France, a pioneer aviator of difficult mail routes over the Andes mountains and across the Sahara who became a highly regarded author. His works included such classics as "Southern Mail," "Night Flight," "Wind, Sand and Stars" and "Flight to Arras."

He was 44 when he disappeared, an advanced age for a combat flyer. Some books have suggested that his plane was shot down by the Germans, other people believe he lost consciousness at the controls of his plane while flying at high altitude.

Locals from a Mediterranean village say they fished a pilot's corpse out of the sea three months after Saint-Exupery disappeared. The body, which was reportedly the same size as that of the missing author, was buried in a nearby cemetery.

Saint-Exupery's family have always refused to allow the body to be exhumed for tests.


New Search for Author's Plane after Fisherman Finds Bracelet
AP, 28-OCT-98

MARSEILLE, France (AP) -- Salvage crews are searching a new swath of the Mediterranean for the lost plane of Antoine de Saint-Exupery, after a fisherman found his bracelet near Marseille, officials said today.

The author of "The Little Prince" mysteriously vanished in his warplane while flying near the French coast on July 31, 1944, as the Allies were pushing Nazi troops through Provence.

Repeated searches near Nice failed to turn up Saint-Ex's Lockheed P-38 Lightning, and theories have ranged from hostile gunfire to mechanical problems to suicide.

But late last month, fisherman Jean-Claude Bianco found the author's silver chain bracelet in near-perfect condition off the coast of Marseille, 115 miles due west, while looking for sole and mullet in a rocky inlet.

Entwined in seaweed and sand, the bracelet was also stuck to a piece of fabric believed to be that of Saint-Exupery's flight suit.

"I told myself, you're dreaming, you're dreaming," Jean-Claude Bianco, the fisherman, told the LCI television station. "The sea is vast, and the bracelet was so small."

The bracelet was authenticated, since it carried the name of Saint-Exupery's wife Consuelo and the names Reynal and Hitchcock, his publishers.

Two days later, on Sept. 28, the marine salvage company Comex launched a two-month search.

The Minbibiex and the Remora 2000, two mini-submarines, were combing a 38-square-mile area around where Bianco found the bracelet, said Comex chief Henri-Germain Deloze. The water in the area varies from 2,100 feet deep to 1,080 deep.

Several pieces of plane wreckage were located by sonar, but so far nothing was found that confirmed they found the P-38, Deloze said. But Deloze said he was still convinced Saint-Exupery crashed near Marseille after taking off from Bastia-Borgo Airport on the island of Corsica on July 31, 1944.

If Saint-Exupery did crash near Marseille, it appeared unlikely he was hit by German gunfire, since the Germans had been chased out of the region by then, expert Patrick Ehrhardt told the regional daily La Provence.


New Search for French Author's Plane after Fisherman Finds
AP, 28-OCT-98

MARSEILLE, France (AP) -- Jean-Claude Bianco was fishing in a rocky inlet for sole and mullet when he netted a bracelet that could solve one of France's biggest aviation mysteries: the crash that killed author Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

"I told myself, 'You're dreaming, you're dreaming.' The sea is vast, and the bracelet was so small," Bianco said of the moment he scraped at the silver chain bracelet to find the names of the author's wife and publishers.

After his Sept. 26 discovery, marine salvage crews began a new search in the Mediterranean for the remains of the plane's wreckage. "This discovery makes me think that the plane isn't very far away," Henri-Germain Delauze, head of the salvage crew, told a news conference Wednesday.

He said he was "convinced" that steel parts since discovered nearby by sonar were part of the wreckage.

Saint-Exupery, the author of "The Little Prince," mysteriously vanished in his warplane on July 31, 1944. The 44-year-old had taken off from the island of Corsica and was flying near the French coast on an Allied mission against the Nazis.

Repeated searches near Nice failed to turn up his Lockheed P-38 Lightning, and theories have ranged from hostile gunfire to mechanical problems to suicide.

The new search is being carried out by two mini-submarines, which were combing an area of up to 38 square miles around where Bianco found the bracelet. The operation is expected to take two months, and cost some $8,000 per day.

The bracelet, in almost-perfect condition, was slightly rusty, entwined in seaweed and sand, and stuck to a piece of fabric believed to be Saint-Exupery's flight suit. It was found 115 miles due west of the Marseille coast.

"My assistant was trying to sort out the fish and said 'Hey, there's a bracelet' ... and I put it in my pocket and continued to work," Bianco told reporters.

It carried the name of the author's Argentine wife, Consuelo, and the names Reynal and Hitchcock, publishers of "The Little Prince."

The waters where the search is being carried out are 1,000 to 2,100-feet deep. Delauze said his only concern was that the plane may have fallen in waters near the Planier lighthouse that are up to a mile-and-a-half deep -- beyond the scope of their instruments.

"The job's only just begun," he said. "It's not just exciting from a scientific point of view, it's also very moving because this is a myth we feel we're searching for."


Paulo Monteiro
Centro de Arqueologia Subaquatica dos Azores
Caminho de Baixo, 68 - Sao Pedro
9700 Angra do Heroismo
Azores - Portugal
arqueologiasub@mail.telepac.pt
http://www.arqueologia.home.ml.org
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:42:54 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Riddle of the Shoes

>From Dave (sactodave@webtv.net)
>(we were still finding servicable WWII grenades,
>explosive shells, and aircraft hulks on Guam in the late seventies.)

No to mention one living, breathing Japanese soldier, in 1972. I was on Guam from 1970-72, and heard the stories about Japanese still hiding in the jungle, which were all poo-poohed, of course.

Sure enough, no long after I returned home in 1972, a soldier was captured (or gave himself up, I've forgotten the details). He was, of course, treated as a hero upon return to his homeland, but was distressed that "he" had lost the war.

Tom #2179
***************************************************************

From Ric

Kinda makes you wonder about that old hag we occasionally glimpse in the jungle on Niku.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:23:35 EST
From:         Hugh Graham
Subject:      Review of evidence

Ric wrote:

>  We have all this evidence suggesting
>  that the flight ended at Gardner but it now seems very unlikley that Bruces
>  engine came from there.  Where does that leave us?

Hi Ric:  Could you review all this evidence suggesting Gardner.  Also, we have one of the 11 Norwich City bodies being consumed by sharks.  Do you know what happened to the other 10?  Thanks IA.
LTM, HAGraham 2201.

***************************************************************
From Ric

Thirty five men went into the water.  Twenty four made it to shore.  Screams were heard which were taken to mean that at least one man was attacked by sharks.  Three bodies washed up on the shore - the steward, the carpenter, and one of the Arab firemen.  These were buried on the island.  That leaves eight bodies unaccounted for, but it's not hard to imagine why they didn't show up on the shore.  Niku has more sharks per gallon of water than you'd believe, not to mention the odd school of barracuda. Chum the water with eight corpses and watch the fun.

As for a review of the evidence, let's keep it simple and let's restrict it to documented fact.  No anecdotes. No speculation.  As Sgt. Joe Friday used to say, "Just the facts, Ma'am."

Summary
In her final transmission heard by Itasca, Earhart said she was on a specific navigational line which, if followed to the southeast (the logical direction to maximize the chance of reaching land), would lead her to Gardner Island. The logic of this course of action was recognized by the Navy in 1937 and prompted the aerial search of the Phoenix Islands by planes from USS Colorado. When those planes flew over Gardner on July 9 - one week after the disappearance - the searchers saw "signs of recent habitation" on an island where no one had lived since 1892.

The first people to visit the island after Earhart disappeared, in October 1937, were two British colonial officers and a party of Gilbertese islanders. The diary of one of the officers confirms that they saw "signs of previous habitation."

The next people to arrive were a small work party of Gilbertese at the very end of 1938.  Sometime in 1939 they found a skull somewhere along the southern lagoon shore.

When the first British administrator came to live on the island in September 1940 he heard about the skull (which had been buried by the discoverers) and initiated a search for additional remains.  He soon found the remains of a campsite with a partial human skeleton, parts of a woman's shoe, and a box which had once contained a sexant.  He suspected that he had found Amelia Earhart and said so.  British authorities declared the matter "strictly secret" pending examination of the bones.  Subsequent examination by a British colonial doctor in 1941 resulted in the opinion that the bones were those of a short, stocky European or mixed-race male about 5 feet 5 inches in height and the case was apparently dropped. Re-evaluation of the measurements using modern forensic technology indicates that the bones were more likely those of a white female of Northern European descent who stood roughly 5 feet 7 inches tall.  That description fits Amelia Earhart.

The numbers reportedly inscribed on the sextant box found with the bones (3500 stencilled and 1542) are similar to numbers written on a sextant box (3547 and 173) now in a museum and known to have belonged to Fred Noonan.

Parts from an American woman's shoe dating from the mid-1930s and matching the style and size worn by Earhart on her final flight were found on the island by TIGHAR in 1991. A second heel found in the same location appears to be from a second pair of shoes and may be from a man's shoe.

Searches of the island's abandoned village have produced a few aircraft parts - clearly small items salvaged for local use.  Some items have been matched to WWII types but attempts to match others to wartime aircraft have failed. These parts seem to be consistent with Earhart's Lockheed 10.

Forensic imaging of aerial photos of a specific and, as yet, unsearched section of the island's shoreline indicate the presence of metal debris consistent with aircraft wreckage.

Summary of the Summary
Somebody who was probably a white woman of Earhart's height and ethnic origin was marooned on Gardner Island and died there around the time of the Earhart disappearance.  The remains of a shoe known to be very similar to Earhart's and another possibly similar to Noonan's were found on the island.  Physical and photographic evidence supports the hypothesis that there is a wrecked airplane (or whatever is left of a very wrecked airplane) in a specific location on the island.

Reason enough to go back?

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:12:58 EST
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: New Canton Engine info

Ric wrote:-

>I have to disagree with you here.  This points up the most important aspect
>of our investigation - the evaluation of possible evidence.  It's the one
>thing that makes us different from all the rumor-chasers.

The engine story is hardly a hand-me-down rumour as the Japanese capture stories are.

It's a personal account by an expert witness, who found an artifact - and we know where this engine is - to within yards !!

I'd argue that the engine's identity and the location at which Bruce found it is now more important than ever.

LTM
Simon #2120
***************************************************************

From Ric

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I'm proud to call Bruce Yoho my personal friend and I have complete faith in his dedication and sincerity. Now let me tell you a little story.

In 1985 an infant TIGHAR was searching for the lost French transatlantic biplane l'Oiseau Blanc (The White Bird) in the wilderness of eastern Maine. Local legend held that a reclusive woodsman named Anson Berry had heard an airplane crash into the hills just west of Round Lake on a foggy afternoon in May of 1927.  There were no airplanes in that part of Maine at that time.  For generations it had been assumed that Berry must have heard "that French airplane" and that eventually some hunter would come upon a rusted engine in the woods.  We had decided not to wait for that hunter and had begun a systematic search.

Naturally, such a romantic quest got some good press and soon, in response to an Associated Press story, we heard from Ray Beck.  It turned out that the long-predicted discovery had already happened.  In 1950, Ray (then a 20-something kid) was hunting in the Round Lake Hills when he came upon a large rusted engine, half-buried in the ground.  He poked at it and puzzled over it.  He couldn't imagine how such a large engine might have ended up so high up on the side of a hill.  Being from out-of-state, he of course knew nothing of the lost French flight and the Anson berry story.  He mentioned the odd discovery to his hunting companions but thought no more of it until many years later he read of our search for l'Oiseau blanc in the very hills where he used to hunt.  Suddenly he realized what it was he must have found and he called us and offered to guide an expedition to the spot where we would find the engine.  (Is this sounding familar?)

We mounted the expedition and set of into the woods, TV news crew in tow.  Ray was sure he could "take us right to it" but it soon became apparent that the woods had changed some in the intervening years.  Eventually he was able to find the area where - he was sure - he had seen the engine in 1950.  But (you guessed it) no engine was in evidence.  Over the next eight (count 'em, eight) years we methodically disassembled the Round Lake Hills, at one point convinced that soemone had come in and removed the engine that must have been there.  After all, Ray was an intelligent, reputable man who was so sincere as to be tortured by the engine that had to be there but, incredibly, wasn't. Other hunters came forward with similar tales of engines in the woods, each one certain that he could "take us right to it."  But years of tramping the woods, heaths, tangles, clearcuts, and blowdowns of Township 18, Washington County produced not one single engine in the woods.  We eventually considered publishing a Field Guide to the Engines of Washington County.

Ultimately, we abandoned Maine altogether, accepting that eight years of chasing anecdotes without finding a shred of solid evicdence was probably adequate indication that there was nothing to find but more anecdotes (and there were always more anecdotes).  We shifted the search to Newfoundland and the results their have been much more encouraging.  Contemporaneous written documentation and some actual artifacts to reinforce the local legends, but  still nothing conclusive.  The White Bird is on the back burner but the lessons we learned in the Round Lake Hills have been invaluable in the Pacific.

So when you say that "we know where this engine is - to within yards!!" you'll forgive me if I smile and say, "Maybe."

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:06:10 EST
From:         Tommy Love
Subject:      Jonas

If no one has already done so please allow me to sponsor Jonas (lump in the throat dept.) for two years. You have my cc#.

TOMMY

***************************************************************

From Ric

What a guy.  I'm sure Jonas will be thrilled.

Jonas wrote to me to explain that he only gets his email when he visits he dad every other weekend, so we shouldn't worry if we don't hear from him right away.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:18:55 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: St. Exupery news

Ric, a couple of posts back you expressed bemusement at the fact (we presume it's fact) that the fishermen dredged up what appears to be St.Exupery's bracelet, and wondered why that sort of thing never happens to us.  It may be worth remembering that we've NOT heard about the upteen trawlers that have trawled about the Med and NOT brought up St.Exupery's bracelet.  If there were as many people poking about the Scaevola of Niku, the other Phoenices, and the waters therearound as there are trawling the Med, we might have had Amelia and Fred on board long ago.

Tom King

***************************************************************

From Ric

You're right of course, and it's not like we haven't had some amazing strokes of luck;
- like Peter McQuarrie stumbling upon the Tarawa File
- and tropical cyclone Hina forcing us to Funafuti where a malfunctioning airplane propeller left us stranded for 6 days until we happened upon the people who told where to look for the airplane wreck on Niku.

I guess we shouldn't complain.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:21:56 EST
From:         Rom Robison
Subject:      Tex Johnston obit

Off topic, but noteworthy -

MOUNT VERNON, Wash. (AP) -- Legendary Boeing test pilot A.M. 'Tex' Johnston, who showed the strength of the Boeing 707 with a barrel roll and helped launch commercial jet travel, died Thursday after suffering four years from Alzheimer's disease.  He was 84.

In a 40-year career in aviation, Johnston was perhaps best known for showing off the Boeing 707 jet before a crowd of hydroplane racing fans gathered around Seattle's Lake Washington for the Gold Cup on Aug. 7, 1955.

Johnston was supposed to do a flyover.  He decided to do a barrel roll.  As Boeing executives held their breaths, he completed the maneuver without a problem.

The company didn't approve.  The stunt, however, helped build confidence in the safety of large jet-powered passenger planes.

Johnston was chief of flight testing for Boeing from 1954 to 1960.  He was with the company from 1949 to 1968. He previously was a test pilot for Bell Aircraft.

Johnston was inducted into the National Aviation Hall of Fame in 1993.  Awards include the Elder Statesman Award from the National Aeronautic Association in 1995.

Rest in peace, Tex, and say hi to Amelia and Fred for us.

LTM
Tom #2179
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:38:32 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: New Canton Engine info

Ric, you wrote:

>Is that clinging foolishly to a pet theory?  I don't think so.  I think it is
>weighing the available evidence based upon sound standards of relative
>credibility.

I'm not usually one to disagree with "The boss", but in this case. it seems to me that the next logical step is to find the Canton engine.

Official records and "official" memories can be wrong. Despite the statements of  Tom Lawrence, there is still a possibility that Bruce really did find the engine on Niku.

I say, put the issue of the engine to bed, once and for all, and then see where we are.

Just my $0.02, and now I'm broke (again).

Tom #2179
****************************************************************

From Ric

I'm not the boss.  I'm just the guy on the horse at the front to the charge (and usually the first one to get shot).

You're right.  Offical records and official memories can be wrong, but the Canton Engine is an anecdotal asterisk to the main thrust of the investigation.  It is certainly worth exploring further when the opportunity presents itself and we are actively pursuing a possible opportunity that would take us back to Kanton with the means to excavate the dump.  But if that does come about, don't be too surprised if there's nothing in there.  I believe that Bruce recovered an engine and I believe he put it in that dump, and I know that the dump was later subjected to a clean up that seems to have involved things being pushed into a treench and covered up.  That Bruce's engine is in that trench is merely our best guess at what may have happened to it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:48:43 EST
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Survival gear

Have I missed something?  While I note "the Luke Field inventory", gather that none was made for the E'bound trip.  Correct?  Seems  only prudent to carry some emergency gear like a pistol (Very Pistol, perhaps); shotgun or rifle, ammo; 1st Aid kit; fish line w/ hooks; tarp;  hatchet, etc., and rations beside the tin of bananas.  Should we be looking for anything else? Maybe they offloaded this kind of stuff earlier to lighten the load.  Do we know what was left behind?  If they had emergency gear, it might have extended their "visit", influenced their actions and campsite location on Niku.  On the other hand even if they had such, may not have been able to get to it after landing.  Just cogitating.   By the way, are big land crabs edible?  How do you catch/kill one?

LTM,
Bill Moffet, #2156

***************************************************************

From Ric

The only reason an inventory was taken at Luke Field is because Earhart walked away from the wreck, caught a ship for California that same noon, and left the airplane as is, where is, for the Army to ship to Lockheed (Amelia did stuff like that).  Some poor shavetail lieutenant got stuck with the job of cleaning out the airplane prior to shipment and, in true Army style, compiled an obsessive inventory of everything in there, right down to the last pencil stub and open packet of Kleenex.

No such occasion arose in Lae.  All we have is a general statement by Amelia that they got rid of everything they could to lighten the ship.  There have been many allegations about what they did and didn't have with them, but the truth is - nobody knows.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:05:45 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Re: Heel wear

Concerning the wear pattern on her heels while flying, I would suggest that there would be a little wear at the back of the heels. This would be from the floor of the cockpit aft of the rudder pedals. I was taught to NOT get in the habit of placing my entire foot on the rudder pedal so as to not accidently activate a wheel brake associated with that rudder pedal upon take off or landing. Landing with my feet ON the pedals no doubt caused my tire blow out one day in a Cessna. Also, once she was airborne and pointed in the right direction, she probably did not even touch the rudder pedals. With very long flights, she probably got as comfortable as possible and just flew straight and level with her feet who knows where? I would conclude that her heels had her own normal wear pattern and slight wear at the very back from the floor of the cockpit. We could always ask "What's her name" what the normal position of her feet were during a long flight in her Lockheed? Hope this helps? Hell, maybe she flew barefoot!!     Gary Moline    Orlando

***************************************************************

From Ric

Context, context, context.  Lockheed 10s are not Cessnas.  They did not have toe brakes.  The brake was activated by a handle on the floor.  Each pedal was more like a little angled platform that hung like a trapeze from the underside of the instrument panel.

I've never flown an Electra so I can't say how much rudder it takes to keep the ball centered in straight and level flight, but I do know that Earhart had an autopilot which should have allowed her to rest her feet on the floor much of the time.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:32:17 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Survival

Did AE/FN have any survival training of any sort prior to departure? Did they have a survival kit that would contain a mirror, matches, etc with them on the trip?

Time for a dumb question! On the latest trip to Niku weren't you planning on towing a sonar around the edge of the island? What were the results? Have the reef areas around the island been inspected?

Concerning building fires, branches in the sand, etc. Wouldn't a wrecked airplane have been the most obvious thing to see on an aerial search? I can't help but think about Lt. Ted Lawson trying to land "The Ruptured Duck" after the Doolittle Raid on a beach in China and yet still ending up in the water. Is it your theory, Ric, that AE tried for the beach, ended up on the reef instead, AE and FN and some wreckage end up ashore and then the aircraft gets washed over the drop-off and lays in 2,000 feet of water? The only other scenario would be that the plane is still in some part of the lagoon that has not been searched. If they did not have a raft and they ended on Niku, then that aircraft HAS GOT to be somewhere close by! If they had a raft, then the aircraft could be anywhere, and they could still end up on Niku. It just "boggles" the mind!

LTM,
Gary Moline   Orlando
**************************************************************

From Ric

Yes, it does boggle the mind.  Our minds are, like, seriously boggled by the whole thing.

There is no record that we have found of either Earhart or Noonan ever having any kind of survival training.  That's not surprising.  Survival training, like self esteem, is a rather modern concept.

We really have no solid information about what kind of emergency gear they had with them except that it seems safe to say - not much.

We (that is, our contractor, Oceaneering Intl.) did a sonar sweep around the perimeter of the island in 1991.  We found zilch.  Not much of an epitaph for an operation that took 10 days and cost around 150,000 coconuts.

Yes, a wrecked (or intact) airplane is exactly what the aerial search was looking for.  There is a formidable faction of NASA guys on this forum, known as the No Land Club*, who feel that it is extremely unlikely that the airplane could have been on land and not seen by the aerial search.  The * indicates an acknowledgement of the remote possibility that they could be wrong.

Our theory, such as it is, is that the airplane was landed intentionally and successfully on the dry reef flat at low tide and remained relatively undamaged for two to three days while attempts were made to send distress calls.  Then the sea kicked up and surf running over the reef at high tide pretty much tore the airplane apart, leaving some pieces strewn about the reef flat and the main hulk of the wreckage (i.e. the strong center section) flung up into the dense beachfront vegetation where it was obscured from view.  A photo taken during the July 9 Navy overflight confirms that the tide was high at that time and significant surf was running over the flat.  Aluminum debris there would be nearly invisibe from the air.

To see what I think the wreck looked like in the bushes a few years later (with some of the vegetation cleared away), see the recent Wreck Photo Research Bulletin on the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:36:55 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: New Canton Engine info

The ONLY reason we didn't find that engine in the Round Lake Hills was because we didn't bring enough Oreos!

If I remember correctly, we also had eye witnesses accounts, didn't we?  Who was that guy that said he heard the plane fly over his house just as he went outside to take a pee?  He was a teenager at the time and remembered because (fill in the blank).   This wasn't anecdotal, this was a living, walking, talkin' human being.  Just goes to show . . .

***************************************************************

From Ric

Famous Quotes From The Earhart Project

"This wasn't anecdotal, this was a living, walking, talkin' human being."
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:46:13 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Re: Heel wear

Thanks for the Lockheed 10 ground school: Flight Controls/Rudder Pedals! I stand corrected! It would sound like there would be little or no wear on the heels from the rudder pedals in that case. With an autopilot, her feet could have been anywhere!

Thanks for the update, you're doing a great job!  Gary Moline   Orlando
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:13:11 EST
From:         Hugh Graham
Subject:      Re: Review of evidence

Ric wrote:

> When those planes flew over Gardner on July 9 - one week after the
>  disappearance - the searchers saw "signs of recent habitation" on an island
>  where no one had lived since 1892.

-----Excepting, of course, the 24 men from the Norwich City grounding who spent 2 weeks on Nikumaroro in 1929, n'est-ce pas?

     Thank-you for the excellent review of the evidence.
LTM, HAGraham 2201.

***************************************************************

From Ric

Not 2 weeks.  Five days.  The "signs of recent habitation" thing rests entirely on what you consider to be a sign of "recent" habitation.  A building?  There were some ruins of the shacks Arundel's workers had lived in 1892 still standing.  But if you're talking about footprints or campfires on the beach, I'd guess that those would probably last a matter of a month or so at most.

**************************************************************

More from Hugh:

Ric wrote:

>Physical and photographic evidence supports the hypothesis that there is a
>wrecked airplane (or whatever is left of a very wrecked airplane) in a
>specific location on the island.
>  Reason enough to go back?

Yup, OK, a man's got to do what a man's got to do.  I sincerely hope you find that incontrovertible evidence.  I will send you what I can.

LTM, HAG 2201.

*************************************************************

From Ric

Can't ask for more than that.  Thank you.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:18:51 EST
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Re: Survival

even though they had no formal survival training, i believe that fred noonan had survived several torpedo sinkings of vessels he served on during ww-i , so he certainly was acquainted with some idea of what was required to survive & be rescued when you are lost at sea; however, surviving when stranded on an isolated, equitorial island, in the middle of the pacific ocean, is an entirely different matter, an experience neither a.e. nor noonan were equipped to handle, either physically or emotionally at that point in their flight, no matter how much "survival" equipment they might have had on board. (in fact, since most of the photos taken during the flight reflect that a.e. did not seem to be very concerned about how her hair looked, she may not even have had a "make-up" hand mirror on board .   what a difference that might have made, if they were still alive & able to "flash" some kind of signal to lambrecht as he flew over & around the island! )

don neumann
***************************************************************

From Ric

Just to be picky, I don't think we have any documentation that Fred was ever torpedoed.  I don't know whether AE had hand mirror with her or not, but as Kenton Spading described recently, its very hard to get a clear visual shot at a low flying airplane from anywhere on the island.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:24:49 EST
From:         Forest Blair
Subject:      Helicopter activity at Canton

For Tom King:  I have no info on activities--helicopter flying or otherwise--at Canton after October 1971 except what I've been reading in the forum.  Sure was involved with the activation up to then, however.

Forest #2149
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:26:30 EST
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: New Canton Engine info

>So when you say that "we know where this engine is - to within yards!!"
>you'll forgive me if I smile and say, "Maybe."

A good answer - and an excellent story.

But there's a huge difference in the size of the search area involved.

And I guess there's a huge difference in budgets involved  :-(

Okay - I've said my piece (for this time....)

LTM
Simon #2120
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:39:53 EST
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Re: Survival

Ric wrote:

>There is a formidable faction of NASA guys on this forum, known
>as the No Land Club*, who feel that it is extremely unlikely that the airplane
>could have been on land and not seen by the aerial search.  The * indicates an
>acknowledgement of the remote possibility that they could be wrong.

Yep.  An intact Lockheed 10-E special  wasn't there on 9 July 1937. And it isn't there now.

>Our theory, such as it is, is that the airplane was landed intentionally and
>successfully on the dry reef flat at low tide and remained relatively
>undamaged for two to three days while attempts were made to send distress
>calls.  Then the sea kicked up and surf running over the reef at high tide
>pretty much tore the airplane apart, leaving some pieces strewn about the reef
>flat and the main hulk of the wreckage (i.e. the strong center section) flung
>up into the dense beachfront vegetation where it was obscured from view.  A
>photo taken during the July 9 Navy overflight confirms that the tide was high
>at that time and significant surf was running over the flat.  Aluminum debris
>there would be nearly invisibe from the air.

Nope.  Plane was over the reef out of view.  Wreckage did not get scattered around Niku until after 9 July 1937.

Ric:

Did you mail out the Anthology Books ?

Love to Lambrecht,

The No Land Club*

***************************************************************

From Ric

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that we've filled all of the outstanding orders for the Earhart Project Anthology ( a collection of all the Earhart Project articles from TIGHAR Tracks).  I think that you're probably talking about the 8th edition of The Earhart Project - An Historical Investigation (aka the Project Book) which is an exhaustive review of what we know happened, and what we suspect happened.  I had hoped to get that done by November 1, but the old problems of not enough time and not enough money have forced me to push it back again.  Let's try for Christmas.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:41:58 EST
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Re: New Canton Engine info

Why run the risk of another trip that most likely will gather minimal evidence at such high cost like the last couple of trips you have taken to Niku?

The approximate Canton Engine location is known and appears to be in an open area, sans scaveola.

Find someone else that was on Bruce's chopper to confirm the engine find if you are worried about his story, then go get it.

Find that engine, and funds will flow.

If you don't find the engine on Canton, then go back to Niku.

You have to go back to Niku more than one more time anyways to solve/analyze this mystery.

Love to Lambrecht,

The No Land Club*

***************************************************************

From Ric

This Canton versus Niku debate is really quite interesting and revealing about which anecdotes people consider to be credible.

On the one hand, we have Bruce Yoho.  He relates his recollection of recovering an engine from an island in the Phoenix Group and, ultimately, putting it in a dump on Canton.  Based upon his description of what he found, we think that the engine might well be from NR16020.  We have been to Canton but have yet to search the place where the engine is thought to be (buried in the dump).  This is considered by many (including me) to be a highly credible account and worthy of vigorous investigation.

On the other hand, we have Tapania Taiki and Pulekai Songivalu.  They independently describe aircraft wreckage they saw on Niku when they lived there.  Based upon their description of what they saw, we think the wreckage may well be from NR16020.  We have been to Niku but have yet to search the place where the wreckage is thought to be.  We do, however, have apparent corroboration of their accounts through aerial photos which indicate the presence of metal in the described locations.

On the surface of it, you would think that independent anecdotal reports of aircraft wreckage by two individuals, supported by photgraphic corroboration, would be considered to be as worthy of investigation as an unsupported anecdotal report by a single individual.  And yet, while Bruce's engine is assumed to be there for the plucking, Tapania and Pulekai's wreckage (far more significant if found) is dismissed.  "Why run the risk of another trip that most likely will gather minimal evidence at such high cost like the last couple of trips you have taken to Niku?"

Why is one American seen as more credible than two Tuvaluans?  Is it a matter of expertise?  Bruce is a licensed airplane mechanic and he thought that the engine might have been an R1340.  That's pretty good.  Without that expertise and that opinion we might be less inclined to pursue his engine.  Tapania has no such expertise but she says that there was "part of a wing" on the reef and "airplane parts" in the bush.  That's all I need to know to chase her wreckage. I fear that the tendency to regard people on Funafuti as being less credible than people from California is based upon some assumptions that should have been put aside a long time ago.

Bruces' engine and Tapania's wreckage are at least equally credible and are both worthy of continued investigation.  Both investigations are hideously expensive.  The difference is that Canton is a one-trick pony.  The only thing you can do there is look for Bruce's engine.  If it's not there, or it's the wrong engine, you're skunked.  If it's the right engine, that's wonderful, but you still don't know where it came from.  Niku is a different story.  The search for the wreckage on Nutiran is only one of at least three operations which need to be conducted (the other two are the examination of Kanawa Point and further investigation of the Aukaraime site) and which could produce very significant finds.  And, unlike Canton, a diagnostic artifact or bone found on Niku solves the central question of the Earhart mystery.

So, we go to Kanton if we can do it cheaply (and that may be possible), but we stay focused on Niku.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:29:14 EST
From:         Bruce Yoho
Subject:      Fuel Drums

At some point in the discussion, if I am correct, it was mentioned that there were fuel drums found on Gardner. I had remembered Russ, during his interview of me had mentioned them also.

If there were fuel drums on Gardner that were located by Tighar team. Is their anyone who could describe what they looked like? Size, shape, gallons, color?

LTM
Bruce
***************************************************************
From Ric

Yes, good point Bruce.  I wouldn't be surprised if we could even come up with a photo or two.  While we're looking:

Do you remember ever taking fuel to any island?

Do you remember, or ideally have a photo of, fuel drums in use on Canton in '71?

What did they look like?  (You tell me first.)

The only time we know for sure that helos from Canton visited Gardner was in 1975 when Roger Clapp, the ornithologist, went there.

I just talked to Roger Clapp on the phone.  He'll try to find his notes and verify his recollections, but he is quite sure that in setting up the SAMTEC operation in 1970/71 all of the islands were visited.  It was his job to look at each island and make recommendations about where the radar sites should be located so as to have minimal impact on bird nesting sites.  Although he can not now specifically recall which island was visited when (his notes may help, if he can find them) it seems highly unlikley that SAMTEC, in moving into the Phoenix Group to set up the missile test range, would not visit and evaluate one of the major atolls of the archipelago.

The operation in 1975, toward the end of the test series, was more than just an evaluation of the environmental impact of the project.  It was a joint British- American study of the ecology of the islands.  The head Brit was a geomorphologist from Cambidge by the name of David R. Stoddard.  Roger remembers that he walked the perimeter of each of the southern islands (Sydney, Hull, and Gardner) talking into his wrist tape recorder "of which he was inordinately proud."  Stoddard is now at UC Berkely and we should be able to check with him about what happened on Gardner in 1975.

Meanwhile, I now have Roger's email address and he'll be looking for his notes about his peregrinations in that far off time.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:48:14 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Crab Cuisine

Bill also asked...  "By the way, are big land crabs edible?  How do you catch/kill one?"  Answer to the first question is "yes, and they'd say the same of us."  As to the second question, the actual LAND crabs, which are all over the place in burrows, could be run down and bashed with a rock, but they're pretty small and very fast -- a lot of work for not too much meat. The big coconut crabs are much rarer but about the size of lobsters,  real delicacies but rather tricky to catch; you get  them by sort of sneaking up behind them and grabbing them by the equivalent of their shoulders, then tying their claws up before they can remove one or more of your appendages.

Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:01:27 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Riddle of the Shoes

>From Ric
>
>Kinda makes you wonder about that old hag we occasionally glimpse in the
>jungle on Niku.

That's the result of too much sun, too much work, too little success, and perhaps a little too much coconut hooch?  ;>)

Tom #2179
***************************************************************

From Ric

Yeah, the old girl should probably wear a hat, take it easy, and lay off of that stuff.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:23:37 EST
From:         Craig Fuller
Subject:      Re: New Canton Engine info

I want to pursue a few other hypotheses and see if we can prove/ disprove them. (Within limits of simple research)

*IF* Tom Lawrence's memory is correct and *IF* the Canton engine did not come from Niku, then what Island did it come from and what aircraft did it come from?

1) The engine is not from Niku and is from the Electra
2) The engine is not from Niku and is from an aircraft other than the Electra.
(We are of course already pursuing #3 and #4-- that the engine is from Niku)

I know that Bruce said he was sure the engine was on an outlying island and the island had vegetation. This narrowed the island down to 3 or 4 islands, one of which was Niku, what are the others? I want to search my database and see if I can come up with any crashes on those islands.

Can we eliminate any of those islands due to the Electra's range? Are any of those islands near the LOP?

If Tom Lawrence can come up with any documentation as to where and where the helicopters did and did not go, then what outlying islands, with vegetation, in the proper time frame did they go to? Barring documentation, can he recall if there were any other outlying islands that he thinks that they did not go to?

I was visiting TIGHAR's web site and pulled up several pages of the forum high lights. Aside from the header, all of the pages were blank. Is anyone else having this problem?

LTM
Craig Fuller
TIGHAR #1589C
Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research
AAIR                   www.sonic.net/azfuller

***************************************************************

From Ric

(By all means, if we have a problem with the website highlights let me know.)

Worthwhile exercise.  Only three of the eight islands of the Phoenix Group have significant vegetation and all three might be considered to be "outlying" with reference to Canton.  These are also the three that were judged to be capable of supporting habitation and were settled in late 1938 as part of the Phoenix Islands Settlement Scheme (PISS).

They are:

Sydney Island (now known as Manra).  This is the only island of the Phoenix Group where (thanks to you) we know an airplane crash occurred - a C47A in December 1943.  We know that neither of the Gooney's R1830s is Bruce's engine because we have a photo of both of them laying on the ground on Sydney taken by Bruce's buddy Del Saylor in 1971.

Hull Island (now known as Orona).  This is the only island of the group that was inhabited at the time of the Earhart disappearance.  We've heard no stories or rumors about any kind of airplane wreck on Hull at any time.

Gardner Island (now known as Nikumaroro).  We have three independent anecdotal accounts -  wartime PBY pilot John Mims,  postwar schoolmaster Pulekai Songivalu, and postwar child Tapania Taiki - alleging that there was already an airplane wreck on the island when the first settlers arrived (Dec. 1938).

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:34:54 EST
From:         Marty
Subject:      Canton Engine

Ref: the Canton engine.

If I may play "Devil's Advocate" for a moment.

I have always been troubled by the fact that Mr. Yoho and two, possibly, more pilots picked up a small radial engine in the Phoenix Island group in the 70's and it never occurred to anyone that it might be from the AE flight?! Be assured that I'm not suggesting anything improper, however, all we really know is that Mr. Yoho was part of the SAMTEC operation on Canton and could probably describe the junkyard area whether there was an engine there or not. Additionally the movie film reel showing the helo flights are "lost". I may have missed something along the lines of corroboration by others, if so, please set me straight.

Marty TIGHAR  0724C

****************************************************************

From Ric

We know (from SAMTEC records) that Bruce Yoho was on Canton when he says he was and doing what he says he was doing.

We know (from his home movie film that is not lost) that he flew on helicopter missions to outlying islands (such as Syndey) and that he engaged in salvage activities that were strictly prohibited later in the SAMTEC operation (He removed a light from the mast of a stranded fishing boat on Sydney.  He still has it.  Nice souvenir.)

His friend at the time, Del Saylor, whom he hadn't heard from in years when I talked to him, remembered that "Bruce had some old wreck of a radial engine propped up in front of the line shack at one time."

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:58:26 EST
From:         Mike Rejsa
Subject:      Sharks, crabs and dollars

> (Re: Norwich)  That leaves eight
> bodies unaccounted for, but it's not hard to imagine why they didn't show up
> on the shore.

Maybe one did. Getting chewed up by sharks *might* account for an incomplete skeleton? (Just stretching my horror writing skills, Ric!) "How'd he swim on shore?"  "He used the crawl stroke..."

> By the way, are big land crabs
> edible?  How do you catch/kill one?

I remember reading about this in the many WWII histories. One shot from a .45 does them right in. Edible, but not a delicacy - the Marines seemed to have preferred canned meats to the readily available crabs. They are also supposed to stink to high heaven in a very short period.

Another suggestion, Ric - we have some discussion re: Niku vs. Tarawa vs. the Kanton engine... why not keep accounts and let people earmark donations for their favored way to procede? Call it a contest...

Mike Rejsa

***************************************************************

From Ric

Context, context, context. The partial skeleton found by Gallagher did not wash up but was part of a castaway's campsite.  The poor devil laid down and died in the shade of a ren tree and the rotting corpse was subsequently pulled apart and scattered by crabs.  That should be horrible enough to suit anybody.

Either the Marines were dealing with a different kind of crab or their sense of taste was permanently damaged by K rations.  Once you've tasted coconut crab, a Maryland Blue seems like a waste of energy and a Maine lobster tastes like cardboard.  On any atoll that becomes inhabited, Birgus latro soon becomes rare and, in many cases, extinct because they're such a delicacy.

As for earmarking donations:  we were (and still are) able to do that for the Reynolds Challenge because Dick Reynolds made a separate contribution toward operating funds which let us set aside the donations for the boat deposit and laptop computer. (We're still $2,750 short on that computer guys.  We've GOT to cover that expense before the bill comes due.  Contributors will get their names on the Reynolds Challenge certificate.)  But without a matching grant like Dick's to cover operating expenses, we can't have the use of contributed dollars restricted to a specific purpose.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:05:50 EST
From:         Janet Powell
Subject:      Re: Riddle of the Shoes

In order to end my status as a 'silent forum subscriber', I am prompted to express some thoughts about shoes.  The vision of the 'Norwich City crew in drag' fair boggles the mind but this MAY not be too far from the truth!

Family recollections make some interesting observations of the Arab seamen sailing from Britain at the time of the NC wreck.  In all probability, these men originated from Aden, a large bunkering port from which many came to Britain to find work.  I have heard these men described as 'a great bunch', of small stature and very poorly paid.  As a result of circustance they commonly wore 'cast offs' and 'hand me downs', some of which, today, could be described as 'unisex', (smaller sized clothes being most suitable to their stature).

Whilst these recollections cannot connect the NC crew to 'an American style woman's shoe dating from the mid 1930's', they may be of interest when evaluating other remnants found on Niku.

Love To Mother

Janet Powell

**************************************************************

From Ric

Interesting point Janet.  Thanks.

Note: Janet's grandfather (have I got that right?) was Daniel Hamer, Master of S.S. Norwich City.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:28:47 EST
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: New Canton Engine info

Just one more comment....

>Why is one American seen as more credible than two Tuvaluans?  Is it a matter
>of expertise?  Bruce is a licensed airplane mechanic and he thought that the

For me, at least, it's not a question of whose account is the most credible, but the fact that Bruce's experience happened much more recently - (times I can relate to, almost yesterday in the AE saga), and the stark realization that no other aircraft loss is known in that area that would yield a PW1340.

Wreckage on a shore - related from WW2 times just seems much more ephemeral (though no less credible - then!).

An interesting question would be whether light aluminum structures on a shoreline would survive sixty years without corroding away completely. My guess would be that larger, heavier structures - maybe a part of the wing with that massive beam - would survive.

I've seen some talk on the forum of the rapid biological decomposition present on Niku, does anyone have any idea how rapidly aluminum structures would decay in a salt/sea atmosphere ?  Are any of the old surviving structures (the barrel etc.) on Niku made of aluminum ?

LTM
Simon #2120
****************************************************************

From Ric

One of the most encouraging phenomena we have observed on Niku is how incredibly well aluminum survives in the isalnd environment.  Ferrous material (iron and steel) rust almost before your eyes, but aluminum remains very stable.  Aircraft components (for example, the navigator's bookcase) which we know date from early WWII (only the first 1,653 B-24Ds were equipped with part number 28F2043) survive with little or no visible corrosion.  The infamous section of airplane skin, Artifact 2-2-V-1,  has a rivet of a style that was common before the war but went out of general use fairly early in the war and the skin has manufacturer's markings that, according to Alcoa, likewise indicate that its an OLD piece of aluminum.  And yet the only places where corrosion has penetrated through the .032 thickness is in one small spot where there was some kind of corrosive deposit (battery acid?  bird dung?).  Even very thin (less tha .025) structures are found intact and almost shiny.  It doen't seem to matter whether the aluminum is buried in the ground or laying on the surface.  Apparently the environment is so dry and free of airborne pollutants that the stuff just lasts and lasts.

If the wreckage of the Electra was once in the bushes, it hasn't gone away due to corrosion.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:41:05 EST
From:         Jim Dix
Subject:      Ancient History

Ok, prior to TIGHAR's expeditions, what caused Gardner to be the most likely island to be searched?

LTM,
Jim Dix 2132
**************************************************************

From Ric

I thought I covered that pretty well in my Review of Evidence posting of 11/2/98.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:43:48 EST
From:         Ann Hinrichs
Subject:      forum highlights

Yes, I too have found the forum highlights pages to be blank....just thought I was doing something wrong.I'm on a Mac OS using Netscape Navigator.
Ann #2101

***************************************************************

From Ric

Hmmmm.  Okay, I'll look into it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:04:26 EST
From:         Darrel Houghton
Subject:      castaway cartoons

Reminds me of a FarSide cartoon: A castaway on an island has scrawled a message in the sand, and he's waving frantically as a plane flies by. The perspective is from the pilot, who radios: "Cancel that, my mistake. It says HELF."
---
Darrell Houghton

P.S. I think I still have this particular cartoon. I can scan it and pass it on. It may be funny to put on the website.
*************************************************************

From Ric

Except we'd have to pay a royalty.

Another good FarSide shows a couple staggering ashore on a miniscule island while their yacht sinks in the background.  Under the sole palm tree is a skeleton holding a sign that says. "Help!  Amelia Earhart" and the guy is saying to his wife, "Well, this doesn't look very promising."

And then there's another one (I forget the artist) in which the first panel shows a jet in flames.  In the second panel the terrified pilot ejects.  Third panel, he floats down under an open 'chute looking very relieved.  Fourth panel, he's hung up in a tree, dangling from a branch.  Beside him is a
skeleton in a parachute harness, dangling from the same branch.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:15:24 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Re: New Canton Engine info

Do you or any other forum people know of a good web site that has a fairly detailed map of the area of the Pacific that we are talking about? It would help me to put it into a good perspective as to where these places are in relation to each other. Also, is Canton Island within the range of the L-10 when AE decided to divert? With the possibilty of the engine there in the dump, is the assumption that the plane landed there or is it thought that the engine was transported there from Niku? Thanks for your patience with those of us that are new to the forum and not as knowledgable as you!  Gary Moline
Orlando          Uboats737@aol.com

**************************************************************

From Ric

I'm sure there are lots of websites with good maps of the Central Pacific. You could also resort to an old fashioned atlas.

As you've noticed, much of the discussion on the forum deals with details of the investigation that require considerable familiarization.  Anyone coming to the forum "cold" is going to feel like they just stumbled into an operating room in the middle of a heart transplant.

My best advice is to go to the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.com and read the TIGHAR Tracks articles and Research Bulletins available there.  We're constantly working to make the website more informative and easier to use.  In fact, we have a major upgrade of the site ready to mount any day now.

You'll find several articles decribing the Canton Engine investigation.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:49:23 EST
From:         J. W. Clark
Subject:      Navigation

Reference your 31 October navigation lesson in re "FN Plan B", the following review might be of interest:

Howland is 00-48N;  176-38W;  low, flat, few scrub trees, hgt. land 18 ft., hgt. trees approx. 30 ft.;  prevailing winds easterly;   sea breaks heavily E side. Baker lies 38 nautical miles SSE, same conditions.  Sunrise 2 July 06:10 HST, but earlier aloft as varies hgt. of eye.  FN had to have sun observation to lay off LOP.   Logical assumption is that AE/FN cleared overcast by 07:00 HST, when FN then managed sun observations.  Usual practice bubble octant 3 quick sights with chronometer times, using average.   Earlier he could have used stars, but overcast.  At 07:00 HST FN would havecalculated LOP as follows:   GCT--18-30:   GHA  96-28:  Declination 22-58N; Latitude 01N; assumed longitude 176-28 W;  resulting LHA 80 degrees,  and Z=67.  Hc not conclusive due no knowledge hgt. of eye.  Allowing 15 minutes for projections to/from assumed position, and projected distance --30 nautical miles ahead, FN would have laid down LOP (perpendicular to  Z) 157-337.  All GCT of 2 July despite crossing IDL.  As any pro navigator, FN would have plotted all observations as true, and corrected any magnetic courses for var/dev to true, contrary to Safford's statement.  Itasca went 337 toward the overcast.  It seems apparent to me that AE/FN were actually on the 157 true line and to the SE of Howland and Baker.  During WW II, I was skipper of an XAPA and twice passed in close vicinity of Baker and Phoenix Islands.  Prevailing wind/sea conditions would have permitted sighting breakers on atolls from ship's bridge at approx. 7 miles.  From aloft AE/FN should have been able sight breakers at least twice that distance even in haze.  FN would certainly have had general chart of oceania and was aware positions islands and reefs.  He would not have been fooled by Winslow reef six fathoms under.  Under circumstances, unless overruled by AE, I believe FN would have chosen to remain on 157 true in clear weather hoping to make one of the Phoenix Is. before gas ran out. Incidentally, as a former merchant marine officer, FN undoubtedly had some working knowledge of morse code.   He was highly regarded by his contemporaries at Delta Line (Miss. Shg. Co.), an international shipping firm.
Regards.

Capt. J. W. Clark
jclarkgoldinc.com

***************************************************************

From Ric

Thank you Captain.  I am, as you might guess, completely in agreement with your assessment, with the following wee quibble.

There is reason to doubt that Noonan was dealing with an overcast.

When we compared the original Itasca radio logs with the Cmdr. Warner Thompson's later transcripts, we noticed that Earhart's supposed report of "overcast" conditons was an embellishment.  In a 1973 interview with Elgen Long, the Itasca's chief radioman, Leo G. Bellarts, maintained that Earhart never said any such thing and that those who later said she did could not have heard her say it because he (Bellart's) was the only one wearing headphones at the time and Earhart's transmissions had not yet been put on the speaker.

Whether or not there were "heavy clouds to the northwest" is more difficult to determine.  The Itasca's deck log for that morning shows that conditions at Howland at the time of Earhart's anticipated arrival were "blue sky with detached clouds", the clouds were "cumulus" in type, three tenths of the sky was obscured by cloud, visibility was more than 20 miles, the wind was light out of the East.  Barometric pressure was 29.88.  At 10:40 a.m. the Itasca steamed off in search of Amelia toward the weather area later described by the captain, but the deck log for the rest of the day never reports more than six tenths (and usually more like 4 and 5 tenths) cloud cover until 7 p.m. that night.  Visibility remained 20 miles plus throughout the day and the pressure never dropped below 29.78.

If there was an area of bad weather northwest of Howland, it seems to have cleared up by the time Itasca got there.

The absence of an overcast would have permitted an earlier sun shot, but your 06:10 time for sunrise is probably calculated at Howland.  The airplane, however, experienced sunrise some 200 nm (ballpark) to the east and, as you note, at a higher altitude. (If AE was following the max range cruise profile Kelly Johnson  had specifically prepared for her, the plane was at 10,000 feet.)  It still comes down to an LOP of 337/157.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:54:16 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Preservation

Concerning decay from salt/sea etc, I'll never forget a picture in National Geograhic of a B-17 in 110 feet of water off of Port Moresby that looked like with a week of work would be ready to fly again! Also, besides the various metals in the L-10 that should survive this long would be the glass from the windshields. Nice and thick but probably covered over with coral growth, slime etc. I guess that with any trip to Niku a person getting a cut should make sure what it was that cut them!
LTM   Gary Moline   Orlando

****************************************************************

From Ric

Airplanes underwater can be very deceiving.  Chances are, if you brought up that B-17, within a few hours of it hitting the air you would begin to see an effect best likened to what happens when Dracula goes sunbathing.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 19:46:51 EST
From:         Gene Bialek
Subject:      U.S. claims to islands

A few comments re. Howland, Canton and Enderbury Islands. These are BASED ON THE PAPERS OF RICHARD B.BLACK, Administrator of the American Equatorial Islands of Jarvis, Howland and Baker from l936 to l941, under the Division of Territories and Island Possessions, US Dept.of Interior. Black supervised the ground Ops on Howland for the AE flight. He joined the Navy (Naval Intelligence) in '41 and attained the rank of Rear Admiral. His personal papers are in the Naval Historical Center, Wash., DC; they indicate a more than passing interest in AE.

1)With respect to Andrew's question (see below)

The landing strips (3) on Howland were completed JUST PRIOR to the aborted East to West flight. If anyone had planned to use these runways it would be after AE's flight. Black states that AE was "scheduled to be the first".

2)With respect to Ric's comments (see below).

The US did not claim the Canton and Enderbury Islands UNTIL  March 1938; Richard Black was ordered by FDR, via the Department of Interior, to establish permanment camps on the Islands. With "utmost secrecy" Black and construction personnel using the Coast Guard vessel "Taney" landed on a deserted Enderbury Island, 6 March, 1938. On 7 March he landed on Canton and was met by two Brits. He claimed the island for the US and raised the flag. NO runways were reported on either island. [In 1939 Pan-American Airways build a refuling station on Canton for its Boing Clipper seaplanes] 

3)Lat-Long of Howland Island.

Black states that in 1936 the position of Howland Is. was found "to be  in error by as much as several miles of longtitude". Corrections were reported to have been made on charts.

Gene Bialek
Wash. DC
gbialek@knight-hub.com
***************************************************************

From Ric

I stand corrected.  Canton and Enderbury were placed under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Department of the Interior by an executive order signed by FDR on March 3, 1938.  Tension between the U.S. and Britain over ownership of the Phoenix Group, however, had been building since at least 1935.  By August of 1936 the British were nervous enough about the American occupation of previously uninhabited Pacific islands that a cruiser, HMS Leith, was sent around to each atoll of the Phoenix Group to put up flagpoles with placards affirming ownership of the island in the name of His Majesty King Edward VIII. Then Edward went and abdicated so early the next year it had to do be done all over again in the name of George VI.  What a pain.  In June of 1937 an American  scientific party (National Geographic) traveled to Canton aboard the U.S. Navy seaplane tender USS Avocet to observe a solar eclipse.  They had no more than arrived when the British cruiser HMS Wellington showed up with its own scientific party.  A huge wrangle ensued about whose island it was and who was the interloper.  Radio messages flew between Washington and Whitehall and the affair turned into a full blown international incident.  In the end, the scientists got on with their eclipse observing and let the bureaucrats at home sort out the political issues.

From our perspective, the question is - At the time Earhart was preparing for her first world flight attempt (early 1937) had the U.S. already taken sufficient interest in Enderbury to cause someone to underline that island on a crude planning map?  I don't know the answer to that.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 19:50:55 EST
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      Re: Navigation

>your 06:10 time for sunrise is probably calculated at Howland.  The plane
>however, experienced sunrise some 200 nm (ballpark) to the east...

They were WEST of Howland, heading EAST

***************************************************************

From Ric

I just can't get anything past you guys.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 19:55:58 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Highlights problem?

Try hitting the "Refresh" button on your browser.  That works for me when I get blank pages on the web.

LTM
Dennis McGee 0149

**************************************************************

From Hugh Graham 2201

------I tested 6 of the Forum high lights at www.tighar.org and everything showed up OK.  I use DOS 6.20,  win3.11,  win32s1.25,  AOL3.0,  MIE3.0-modified browser.  HAGraham 2201.

***************************************************************

From Ric

It's working okay on our end using PowerMacs.  anybody else having trouble reading the Forum Highlights on the TIGHAr website (www.tighar.org)?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 19:59:42 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Navigation

Interestingly, when I calculated sun lines for AE's flight, it took nearly two hours after sunrise before the LOP would have changed by one degree.  Once FN made his sun shot, there was little else he could do to revise his line of position.  I hope, however, that he checked it again, because a time difference would at least tell him where his LOP was on the globe!  Based upon his notations on previous charts, it is not at all clear that he performed navigational fixes at a regular interval (due to weather?  laziness? other conditions?).  We simply do not have enough information to state what FN did, and can only speculate.

***************************************************************

From Ric

Thank you for not mentioning that I screwed up east and west in my reply to Capt. Clark.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:22:45 EST
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Canton Engine

Ric wrote:

>Why is one American seen as more credible than two Tuvaluans?

Then Ric writes:

>His friend at the time, Del Saylor, whom he hadn't heard from in years when
>I talked to him, remembered that "Bruce had some old wreck of a radial engine
>propped up in front of the line shack at one time."

Sounds like 2 on 2 to me Ric.

 I would go with 2 Americans before 2 islanders with names that start with TAP and SONG.  Particularly  since they knew you were looking for a plane before you talked to them (tell them what they want to hear syndrome).

None of the 500 + others on Niku saw aircraft wreckage (yes, yes, that we know of) including some geological exploration that put towers up all over Niku !!!

Ric then writes:

>And, unlike Canton, a diagnostic artifact or bone found on
>Niku solves the central question of the Earhart mystery.

If I recall the spirited battle that TIGHAR members that have been to Niku waged to convince us how harsh and difficult wacking thru dense scaveola (feet per day, if I recall correctly), it appears you are going to wack around Niku again (you have been there 45 + days to date ?), making progress in feet per day, and guess what ?

You're not going to find anything.

Why ?

Same story, ran out of time and money (again).

However, if you get that engine, you won't have to worry about money.

There are no other R-1340's hanging around the Phoenix Islands, or so you told us.

Love to Lambrecht,

The No Land Club*

**************************************************************

From Ric

As long as we're nit picking:

Tapania and Pulekai each relate a separate sighting of airplane wreckage on the island in different but logically related places.  Two anecdotes.  Del Saylor is not a separate sighting but is corroboration that Bruce had an engine.

As far as we know, Pulekai did not know we were looking for an airplane.  Our conversation with him had focused on whether he had ever heard any stories about bones being found on Gardner (this was before the Tarawa File had been found).  He knew nothing about any bones.  We then asked whether he had ever heard about an airplane crash on Sydney Island (this was before we had nailed down that wreck) and he replied, "No, but there was one on Gardner."

Bruce Yoho knew we were looking for Earhart's plane before he contacted us about the Canton Engine.

Where you get 500+ people on Gardner is a mystery to me.  The Gilbertese settlement never amounted to more than about 200 at the most and was more like 50 for most of the time.  The Loran station was manned by 25 Coasties.  I suppose that if you tallied up everyone who ever visited Gardner you might be able to get 500.

You're not the first, and you won't be the last, to tell us that we're not going to find anything on Niku.  People keep telling us that and we keep finding stuff.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:29:45 EST
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Signs of Habitation

Ric wrote:

>Five days.  The "signs of recent habitation" thing rests
>entirely on what you consider to be a sign of "recent" habitation.  A
>building?  There were some ruins of the shacks Arundel's workers had lived
>in 1892 still standing.

Ric, weren't markers or something placed by the British on Niku in early 1937 also?

LTL,
NLC*
***************************************************************

From Ric

On February 15, 1937 HMS Leith stopped at Gardner just long enough to erect a flagpole with a placard on it.  Whether it was still standing July 9 is anybody's guess but when Lambrecht saw similar flagpoles on other islands that's what he called them - flagpoles.  The pole on Gardner is not mentioned by Maude or Bevington when they visit the island in October of '37.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:30:05 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Hear Ye! Hear Ye!

In a desperate attempt to make some progress against the overwhelming backlog of work (like the Electra model specs, the next issue of TIGHAR Tracks, the 8th Edition of the Project Book, preparations for the England research trip, etc.) I'm going to pass the task of moderating the forum to my lovely wife, TIGHAR's president, Pat Thrasher for the period of one week starting tomorrow - Wednesday 11/4.  On Wednesday 11/12 I'll come back on and report what I've accomplished and resume my duties until Sunday the 15th when I'm off for England for a week.  While I'm gone, Pat will again hold the fort and relay my progress, or lack of progress, reports.  Upon my return on Monday 11/23 I'll again resume moderating the forum.

I love our daily debates and cogitations on matters Earhartian and I find it quite impossible to not answer questions thoroughly, not comment on interesting suggestions, or not pick up a thrown gauntlet.   But I'm just not getting anything else done - so I'm going to go cold turkey for a week.  Pat will continue to post messages that are on topic (or very nearly so), are reasonably civil, and contain no personal insults against anyone but me.  I'd appreciate it if Earhart Project team members and researchers (who know more about this stuff than I do anyway) would cover for me by answering questions and guiding the misguided until I'm back to take the heat.

I'll see you guys in a week.  In the meantime, I'll leave you with this thought:
SEND MONEY!

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:41:44 EST
From:         Bruce Yoho
Subject:      Engine & Reality

I need to make a point here.

My interest in Amelia Earhart and her disappearance was after a few facts had happened in my life. In 1971 I was in the Phoenix Islands working on the SAMTEC mission. I did not know about A.E. or did I give much of a hoot. My interest was making money to pay for the house my wife and I had just bought and then returning, as fast as, I could make it happen. Canton Island became very boring for a young man missing his family and with nothing to do at that time for R&R.

I did find the engine and this gave me something to do with my time. That was my interest then and in all reality was nothing but a plaything for me. When I became bored with it, it was not even worth the thought, of putting it aside for the Generals visit, in fact the Generals visit was just the jolt, a procrastinating mechanic, needed to get rid of the engine, so to the dump it went.

Some years later, after becoming an Instructor in Aviation Maintenance I read the book "Amelia Earhart Lives" I read the book and became the believer in the idea that she lived and her and old Fred went off to England to live happy ever after and it was made possible by some exchanges with Japan after the surrender.

Enter a different story, my local newspaper carries a story about some group calling themselves "The International Group for Historical Aircraft Recovery" the paper mentioned that they were looking for A.E. in the Phoenix Islands. I yelled to my wife in the kitchen, that these nuts should read Elgin Longs book A.E & Fred are in England.

It did cause me to review my film and I thought wait, what if they are up to something and if they are going there, maybe they would like to take a look at an engine I found. I could not find any way to contact these people (Tighar) so kind of gave up. The highest Tech stuff then was hand held calculators.

As years went by the newspaper again had an article about Niku lll expedition and also Linda Finch. The arterial stated that (Tighar) was in the Phoenix Islands right now. I thought, let me see if I can find that group and get a message to them. Thanks to computers and the Internet I was able to contact Purdue University and found out you guy's go by TIGHAR. I sent a message.

In my first message I stated I did not want anything for the information nor any publicity of where they got the information. Anything of use to Tighar was theirs. At the time I was just not sure of the value of this engine to solving a world mystery. I am a part of Tighar and so is all if anything is useful that I may contribute.

I did take pictures of that engine, I cannot find them but we did find a roll of undeveloped film that at this time is in a Lab. in Colorado in hopes it can be developed. It could be a film my kids took, but it could also be film taken of that engine. The film was located in the camera bag I used at Canton and never used another time.

If you have gotten this far, the purpose is credibility of, one over another, that has been appearing on the forum. Ric use's some long words but to say it bluntly my statements are just that "statements" yes Del Saylor knows I had an Engine others know, but we have not been able to contact them. The two Tuvalnans story of seeing an aircraft in pieces on the island of Gardner has just as much credibility as my story at this point, and I couldn't care less if I am an American or a Tuvalnan.

Please let us not weigh one story against another because of who they are or what they are.

TRUTH, PROF, FACTS AND EVIDENCE (Sorry I ain't yelling)

Love To Mother
Respectfully, Bruce
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:41:50 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: New Canton Engine info

Ric wrote:

>My best advice is to go to the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.com and read the
>TIGHAR Tracks articles and Research Bulletins available there.

Ric, don't you mean www.tighar.org?

{Yes, of course he did}

I checked the forum highlights again tonight...blank pages.

[I don't understand this but will continue to investigate. Pat]

Tom #2179
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:41:37 EST
From:         Walt Holm
Subject:      Maps of Niku and the surrounding area

Gary Moline wrote in yesterday asking about online maps of the Niku area.  I don't know any online ones but I can recommend two excellent paper maps.

The area of Niku, Kanton, Hull, Sydney, Howland, etc. is covered excellently by Operational Navigation Chart (ONC) M-17.  The map covers about 500 miles on a side.  You can get it from Sporty's pilot shop for about $4.00.

For a map showing the "big picture" of the Pacific Ocean, I have not found anything that can beat the "Reference Map of Oceania" by the University of Hawaii Press.  Most maps cover either Micronesia or Polynesia, and Kiribati always kind of gets left out.  This map shows both Micronesia and Polynesia, and Kiribati is smack in the center of it.  Hawaii is at the top of the map and one can get a good perspective of the distances from Hawaii-Niku or Fiji- Niku, or can trace the route from Lae to Howland.

The ISBN for this map is 0-8248-1687-0 and the cover price is $7.95

Hope this helps some people.

-Walt Holm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:41:57 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: U.S. claims to islands

Enderbury was considered US territory prior to the Canton expedition, but was never formally declared so.  When Britain claimed the Phoenix Islands, the US Gov't made serious attempts to rebuff the British, resulting in joint control of Canton, and the US administering Enderbury.

By the way, thanks for the tip that Black's papers are in the Naval Historical Center: I did not know that.  Also, Black was sent back to Antarctica by the Dept. of Interior in late 1938 or early 1939.  CDR Kenner, USCG was assigned to DoI for administering the various equatorial islands.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:42:04 EST
From:         Tim Heck
Subject:      Re: Preservation

When looking today in the recent Hamacher &Schlemmer catalog that came I saw something interesting.  For those of you that don't know, companies now make money selling yesterday's news-only yesterday is about 40-50 years ago.  Anyway, I saw a front page of the New York Times from 1937 stating that Radio calls give new hope to search for AE and FN.  Just a little footnote-proof that stuff shows up in the weirdest places.  Hmmm....maybe then AE is in New Jersey?

Tim  #2208S
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:42:11 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: New Canton Engine Info

Craig wrote

>I was visiting TIGHAR's web site and pulled up several pages of the forum
>high lights. Aside from the header, all of the pages were blank. Is
>anyone else having this problem?

Yes, I've noticed the same thing, but thought perhaps it was due to this creaky old Mac I'm using. Then I tried it at work on my Gateway, with the same result...blank p[ages.

Tom #2179

Tom Robison

Never forget the importance of history. To know nothing of what happened before you took your place on earth, is to remain a child forever. [unknown]

***********************

I dunno, guys. I checked it with both the AOL Web browser and Netscape and they came up fine. Have you purged your browser caches recently?

Anyway, try again this evening; our New and Improved site is going live this afternoon. Please report glitches, broken/missing links, and so on to Pat at TIGHAR@aol.com.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:21:02 EST
From:         J. W. Clark
Subject:      FN Navigation

Ric Gillespie:   Reference yours in re disputed overcast report, FN would have taken star fixes if clear sky permitted, as he was certainly competent to do so. Therefore it appears there was indeed an overcast sky to the NW earlier. Itasca info seems rather biased by Cmdr. Thompson's attitude.    Further, had AE/FN been west of Howland on 157 true course they should have passed over Howland.   FN certainly would have taken confirming LOPs to assure relative position.   No.  It appears to me that they were beyond Howland on 157 course and headed for Phoenix Is. unless AE decided to reverse course.   Regards.

Capt. J. W. Clark
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:29:48 EST
From:         Hugh Graham
Subject:      New www.tighar.org prop spinneth

Hello Pat and Ric:  Just happened to go into www.tighar.org to test the forum highlights problem that others are having.  Was surprised to see the new web site with the spinning prop working fine.  The forum high-lights are working fine also, but I never have had the problem.

I erase my MS Internet explorer browser hard drive cache after every use, which may be why I never have the bug.

For AOL 3.0 users, click on "members", then click on "preferences", then click on "WWW", then click on "advanced", then click on "purge cache", then click on "yes" in answer to the question "remove all items from your local cache?"   By the way, I also use Netscape which doesn't have such a large cache and doesn't suffer from creeping Hard Drive space disappearance problems of MIE.  regards, HAGraham 2201.

******************

Thanks, Hugh. For Macs there are slightly different commands but the same result, and you should definitely do this at least once a week if you do much Web browsing....

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:30:42 EST
From:         Forest Blair
Subject:      Photos of Canton Engine

Bruce Yoho indicated  in a 4 Nov 98 input to the forum that he can't find photos of Canton engine.  I keep thinking, however, that Ric, in his only telecon with me several months ago, mentioned we did have photos--even 8mm movies--of it.  What do we have?

Forest #2149

*******************

Bruce?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:45:24 EST
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      Re: LTM

I have been thinking about the LTM telegram, and following the premise that the simplest answer is usually the most likely correct solution, it occurs to me that the author of the LTM telegram would have to have been somebody close enough to GP Putnam to have written a message that to us looks cryptic, but may have actually been nothing more than a simple confirmation that all was ok, written in a way that GP would imediately understand who it was from without needing a signature.

It strikes me that such a person exists, and it would be David Binney Putnam, George's son, who would of course pass along regards to his own mother through George if he was only given one shot at a telegram home from a refugee camp in recently liberated China.

What do we know about David B. Putnam other than that he was born 5/20/13, which would have made him 32 years old on the date of the telegram to GPP, 8/28/45?

David was involved in the family publishing business from an early age providing fodder for his father's publishing house, what are the chances he was still involved with the media/news/publishing business and might have been in China during WWII, and subsequently liberated.

If you imagine the author as GPP's son, the message makes complete sense.  It is a one shot, "We've been liberated, I 'm OK, got a lot to tell you, pass the news on to mother", no reply necessary.

Even the words chosen indicate that the sender and the recipient had books in common between them - "Volumes to tell."  Perhaps this is a hint of yet another collaboration between father and son, and GPP was hoping to publish his son's wartime stories.  Did he?

What do we know about David Putnam??

Love to Mother
A McKenna, 1045C

************************

Sally Putnam Chapman's excellent biography of her grandmother, Dorothy Binney Putnam, makes brief mention of the wartime careers of George Jr. and David, Sally's father.  David served in the Air Force, was able to come home on leave for the birth of a son in 1944, and returned home finally in 1945 when he was demobbed following the end of the war. No mention is made of capture, service in Asia, or anything else the least bit exciting or exotic (though no doubt worrying to a mother all the same). I think we can eliminate this as a possibility.

The book, BTW, is well worth reading. It is _Whistled Like a Bird_, published by Warner Books.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:46:29 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Sources

An e-mail acquaintance believes that Amelia was working for the Navy when she disappeared. She thinks Amelia's accident in Hawaii was a put-on to show the world what an inept pilot Amelia was. She believes the gummint has many documents about Amelia being kept secret.

I'm poor at persuasion with the written word, so I've not made much headway with her, and so far my attempts to get her to join the discussion list have failed.

She's read some of the documents on the TIGHAR website, but remains un- convinced. Can someone here recommend one or two good books or magazine articles that might sway this lady away from her ill-conceived notions?

Thanks,
Tom #2179
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:48:45 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Maps of Niku and the surrounding area

Walt wrote:

>  Gary Moline wrote in yesterday asking about online maps of the Niku area. I
>don't know any online ones but I can recommend two excellent paper maps.
>
>  The area of Niku, Kanton, Hull, Sydney, Howland, etc. is covered excellently
>by Operational Navigation Chart (ONC) M-17.  The map covers about 500 miles on
>a side.  You can get it from Sporty's pilot shop for about $4.00.
>
>   For a map showing the "big picture" of the Pacific Ocean, I have not found
>anything that can beat the "Reference Map of Oceania" by the University of
>Hawaii Press.  Most maps cover either Micronesia or Polynesia, and Kiribati
>always kind of gets left out.  This map shows both Micronesia and Polynesia,
>and Kiribati is smack in the center of it.  Hawaii is at the top of the map
>and one can get a good perspective of the distances from Hawaii-Niku or Fiji-
>Niku, or can trace the route from Lae to Howland.
>    The ISBN for this map is 0-8248-1687-0 and the cover price is $7.95


Pat, this is good info. Any way to find a place for this on the web site? Maybe build a new page and call it Reference Material, or somesuch?

Tom #2179

******************

Good idea, Tom. We will be reorganizing the site in the wake of the new artwork, and I will look into this, it shouldn't be difficult. There are a couple of map stores on line as well that I could link to for those who might be interested.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:49:54 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Web page

Cool new web page! The prop spins, the instrument faces light up, and guess what? No more blank pages in the archives!

Boy, the world really brightens up when Pat's in charge! It just takes a woman's touch, I guess...

Tom #2179

************

Hey, what can I say.  :-)  <bowing>

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:53:30 EST
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Good Science

I fully agree with you that TIGHAR should not change its research focus from Nikumaroro to Kanton simply because recovery of the Kanton engine might answer some basic questions.  Good scientific research procedures and the available evidence to date shouts loud and clear to stay with Nikumaroro.

I am reminded of the California Gold Rush of 1849.  For the most part those individuals that rushed to the hills in search of gold ended up broke while the folks that thought through the situation and became merchants to the prospectors became wealthy.  The wealth of data points to the probability of answers being found on Nikumaroro not Kanton.  If money is not a problem then go to Kanton but not at the expense of going back to Nikumaroro.  The real gold is very probably on Nikumaroro.

Dick Pingrey, TIGHAR 908C
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:57:47 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Re: Funding

I just had a brilliant idea for financing future TIGHAR projects! On the next Niku expedition, capture several male and female coconut crabs ( I'll leave it up to you to figure out the difference) bring them back to the States, cultivate them domestically, and open a SEAFOOD RESTAURANT. If they are the delicacy you claim, we could make millions! Perhaps they are like the Blue Crabs, bring them in break off one claw and throw them back to grow another.

LTP
Marty 0724C

******************

Oh yeah, I can just see the agricultural inspector at the airport in Los Angeles.... that beagle would go nuts.

Seriously, for those who have never seen one, if you are in Seattle the Aquarium has a colony. Cool beasties.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:58:36 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Re: Engine and Reality

Bruce, You say in your post " it did cause me to review my film" to what film are you referring?

Marty 0724C
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:21:36 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Engine & Reality

Seems to me the easiest way to find the buried engine would be to use ground penetrating radar.  There are several variants, and quite a lot of information available on the 'net.  The equipment might be available for lease or rent at a reasonable rate, or you might be able to convince somebody who already has one to go along.  You would probably want to consult with experts to discuss the penetrating ability in the type of ground located at the island, but there are numerous examples of such equipment finding buried articles quickly and efficiently.  In law enforcement we occasionally have need to use gpr for location of grave sites, etc.  Might be worth looking into, and could save a lot of digging...

LTM
jon

*****************************

Randy, could you field this? Mini tanks.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:34:46 EST
From:         Craig Fuller
Subject:      Re: Web page

The new site works great (spins my prop, then stops and restarts, and lights up my instruments) and I can finally read the forum high lights! But where is the links page:-)
Craig Fuller
TIGHAR 1589C
Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research
AAIR                   www.sonic.net/azfuller

************************

Patience, patience, all will be revealed... or at least re-linked and built upon. This is a process, not an event <G>.

Pat, who really will get into that site today and start the process.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:36:00 EST
From:         Suzanne
Subject:      Re: Web site

The new web site looks great.  Using my Micron PC and AOL I can see all the pages and yes, the prop spins!

Best regards,
Suzanne
#2184
************************

For those who need a reminder, the web site is www.tighar.org.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:45:20 EST
From:         Monty Barr
Subject:      Castaways

I'm sure that our castaways clung to the hope of being rescued, probably more by ship than plane. Also they must have known that any rescue effort would come from the North or northwest. Don't you think they would have spent a lot of time on the north and northwest side of the island for this reason? Maybe had stuff ready to start a signal fire on the beach incase they saw a ship.

I know that just about all the castaway items have been found south of the lagoon, but at least for the first 2 weeks maybe AE and FN were on the North side. Maybe that is where the report of recent habitation by the search planes came from.

**************************

Well, perhaps all these maybes are true. But in the world of SAR, you start from the Point Last Seen--PLS. That can be a physical sighting of the person, or it can be a jacket  dropped by the person you are looking for. We have to go with what we have. Speculation about possible signal fires that might or might not have existed, while amusing, isn't actually useful. Even if they were hanging on the northwest side of the island, once they saw/heard (if they did) the search aircraft leave, they would have been powerfully motivated to explore the island and find out what resources they had at their disposal.

It is worth reminding all readers that any sentence which starts with or contains the words "would have" "must have" or "maybe" is pure speculation..... even if it's written by Ric and/or me.... <G> Maybe we should make a new rule that all such words must be offset and highlighted?

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:46:48 EST
From:         Tim Smith
Subject:      Re: Maps of Niku and the surrounding area

I've spent some time looking for decent maps of the Pacific on the internet and went away unsatisfied.  The only way I've ever really understood where Niku is in the Pacific is to look at a good-sized globe.  My local public library has one about 4 feet in diameter.  It was an excellent way to see just how remote Niku is and shows very well the relationship between New Guinea, the Phoenix Islands, and all the other place names familiar to regular Forum readers.

So, don't waste time on flat maps.  Find the biggest globe you can.
Tim Smith #1142C

*********************************

Gotta agree, that to get the scale and the immensity you have to see it in the round. There is just one incredible amount of ocean out there between Niku and everything else....

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:49:04 EST
From:         Sam Ginder
Subject:      Re: Castaways of  Gardner Island

This point has always bothered me too. Why didn't the Navy search planes spot AE and FN? Ric's explanation is plausible, but what happened to AE' s airplane? Why wasn't that sighted? To me, that's the weak link in the Niku argument.
Sam Ginder (#2180)

*************************

Ric tells me that Mike Ruiz can probably help you with this question.

Don't blame me. <G>

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:14:09 EST
From:         Bruce Yoho
Subject:      Re: Photos of Canton Engine

To Forest,

We never claimed to have photo's of the Engine. What we have is approx. 1500 feet of 8 mm film of my stay at Canton.

I did take photo's of the engine but have never been able to locate them. We just got word from the lab in Colorado where we have a roll of film we suspect was taken on Canton but will not be sure until developed. The lab indicated the end of December.

The problem is the film is so old that the process is not used any longer and the chemicals are now considered hazardous waste. Only two companies in the US perform the service.

I will keep all posted as to what turns up on the film.

LTM
Bruce

************************

Thanks, Bruce.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:15:13 EST
From:         Bruce Yoho
Subject:      Re: Engine & Reality

Marty,

See my post to Forest, this date

LTM
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:16:40 EST
From:         George Mershon
Subject:      searching Niku

I've just come from a demo of  a radio controlled helicopter that sends back real-time video.  The 'copter is about eleven feet long, but can be boxed and then assembled in less than fifteen minutes.  This project is under development, but working well, and all within an hour's ride from your home.  I think this may be an easy (easier) way to scope Niku's secrets.

George Mershon  #2181
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:18:08 EST
From:         Dave
Subject:      Re: Sources

As far as the accident in Hawaii, there are several accidents in which overweight aircraft have been crashed on takeoff due to lack of speed, power, and the effects of density altitude. Density altitude could merit reducing an aircraft's weight below maximum gross takeoff weight to provide safety margins for climb, and runway requirements. If an aircraft were overloaded to accommodate excess fuel for endurance, the effects of density altitude would exacerbate an already ticklish situation. I think she just overestimated the aircraft's performance, and was unable to control the aircraft during the precariously long takeoff roll, and marginal (insufficient?) climb conditions. It takes a skilled pilot to extract an aircraft from this very delicate condition, and it appears she lacked this needed skill.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:11:32 EST
From:         John Clauss
Subject:      Re: Engine and reality

Jon,

While ground penetrating radar is a great tool it is doubtful that it would be of any use in locating the buried engine on Kanton.  Remember that we are working in an area with debris that has accumulated since WWII.   The site we are talking about was used to store material that was no longer of use, but might be at some future point.  It was more like a salvage dump. Wrecked airplane components, truck parts, a dead tractor, engines, Bruce's engine and anything else that might supply salvage parts were deposited in this particular area.

As best we can tell, in the late seventies as the Air Force was shutting down their operation, it was decided to 'clean up' the unsightly dump areas.  The procedure was to bulldoze a trench, push the debris into it, compress it by driving over it and then continue to cover everything up with coral rubble.  Bruce's engine site was one of many that were handled this way.    What was left in this case was a ridge with engines, axles, aluminum, tires and anything else you can imagine sticking out.  It is about 50 meters long by ten meters wide by five meters (?) deep.

The point is that the site is much too cluttered to be able to identify anything electronically.  The only way to locate that engine is to start digging and pull everything out, piece by piece till we find it.

Hope this helps.

LTM
John
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:12:23 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Engine and Reality

In case Randy doesn't get to it -- the trouble with trying to use Ground Penetrating Radar (GPR) in the Kanton dump is that the place is just that -- a dump, loaded with chunks of bulldozers, engines, airplane parts, and heaven knows what else, buried under a lot of coral rubble that by its nature undoubtedly contains a lot of void spaces that would create weird echoes even if there weren't lots of real things for signals to bounce off of.  It's conceivable we'd get something out of GPR, but most likely what we'd get is a whole lot of noise.

Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:14:07 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Engine and Reality

GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) is a proven technology, but there are probably two issues for finding the engine.  First, the area has been described as a dump, so there will be lots of targets that the GPR would find.  Distinguishing the engine from other objects is the real problem.  Secondly, coral and coral sand environments are not conducive for GPR, as the system works best when it finds disturbance of stratified layers.  Coral environments are not stratified.  Finally, (yes, I know, this is third!), GPR only works down to the water table, and that is usually very shallow on these islands.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:15:00 EST
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Re: Castaways of  Gardner Island

Sam:

AE and FN may not have been visible from the air.  They could have been incapacitated and/or unable to get out in the open.

Even if they were out in the open, experienced search pilots have related it is difficult to spot individuals from the air.

The Lockheed most likely was hidden under a tree, broken up and hidden under the surf (it was high tide at the time of the air search), or could have washed off the reef.

Regards,

Mike Ruiz
#2088
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:17:33 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Re: Engine & reality

At the risk of getting yet another post censored Might I be permitted to tread on the "sacred cow" once more,and ask Bruce, If you were so bored on Canton as you have said over, and over, would it be safe to assume that the other 2 to 300 people on the Island would be just as bored? And wouldn't the appearance of an old radial engine, slung in from an outlying Island be an EVENT! And wouldn't it be likely that SOMEBODY maybe your buddy, Del Saylor, would have taken snapshots? Sorry I'm not trying to dump on you ,I just am trying to convince myself  that you are creditable----------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:19:51 EST
From:         Tom Robision
Subject:      Quotes

from http://www.skygod.com/quotes/quotes.html

So many men now have lost their lives in airplane accidents that individual ddition [sic] to the long list of their names have ceased to cause any really deep emotions except in the minds of their relatives and friends. When a woman is the victim however the feeling of pity and horror is as strong as was that produced by the first of these disasters to men and though there is at present no expectation that aviation should be abandoned by men because of the recognized dangers, the death of Miss Bromwell is almost sure to raise in many minds at least the question if it would not be well to exclude women from a field of activity in which there [sic] presence certainly is unnecessary from any point of view.

-- New York Times, editorial, 1921.
*****************

Women will never be as successful in aviation as men. They have not the right kind of nerve.

-- Maurice Hewlet, the first English lady to solo an aeroplane.
*****************

Women must pay for everything... They do get more glory than men for comparable feats, But, also, women get more notoriety when they crash.

-- Amelia Earhart
*****************

I didn't know a lot about Amelia before I started [flying]. And as a woman and a pilot, I should have known more.

-- Linda Finch, prior to starting out on a flight retracing Amelia Earhart last journey, 1997.
*****************

Flying is a man's job and its worries are a man's worries.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery, 'Wind, Sand and Stars.'
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:46:26 EST
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: Quotes

"I want to do it because I want to do it. Women must try to do things as men have tried. When they fail, that failure must be but a challenge to others."
               --Amelia Earhart, in a letter to George Putnam

Best Wishes,
Gene Dangelo 2211
p.s.: I got my membership card today, Ric! Thanks!
  :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:52:42 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Engines & reality

Marty Joy wrote

>Bruce, If you were so bored on Canton
>as you have said over, and over, would it be safe to
>assume that the other 2 to 300 people on the Island would be
>just as bored? And wouldn't the appearance of an old radial engine,
>slung in from an outlying Island be an EVENT! And wouldn't it be likely
>that SOMEBODY maybe your buddy, Del Saylor, would have taken
>snapshots?

I was on Guam during the same time period that Bruce was on Canton.

If I had dug up a radial engine from somewhere, and had it sitting around where other folks could see it, I'm sure most of my acquaintances would have asked, "What are you doing with that old relic? What good is it? What are you going to do with it? Get rid of it, it's an eyesore!"

Believe me, during the Vietnam period, an old beat-up aircraft engine, of any size or type, was nothing to get excited about, not even on Canton.

Tom
Never forget the importance of history. To know nothing of
what happened before you took your place on earth,
is to remain a child forever. [unknown]
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:12:41 EST
From:         Tom Cook
Subject:      Howard Hughes' HK1 Flying Boat AKA Spruce Goose

Just want correct a reference made last month to a museum in California that "has the Spruce Goose", that airplane left California in 1992.  It is now in McMinnville,Oregon.

It is partially disassembled with the hull (it is a boat, you know) in one building, and the wings in two other buildings on either side. it is currently undergoing restoration while a museum large enough to house it along with the numerous other A/C in the collection is being built.  For information contact : www.sprucegoose.org
I saw it in September.
Tom Cook 2127
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:18:12 EST
From:         Barb Norris
Subject:      Re: Quotes

Gene DeAngelo reminded us of this great AE quote:

>"I want to do it because I want to do it. Women must try to do things as
>men have tried. When they fail, that failure must be but a challenge to
>others."
>                --Amelia Earhart, in a letter to George Putnam 

Now it just so happens that the above quote was a favorite of the girls in my 4th grade class.  I can't help but think that it was at least one of the reasons a parent provided this feedback about our Earhart Project at school.

"I recently read a piece Katie completed in school about what she can do if she believes in herself. She related many of Amelia Earhart's accomplishments, and aspires to be a pioneer in her own way.  What a dream!"

How's that for inspiration?

LTM,
Barbara Norris #2175
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:55:05 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Canton engine

John Clauss wrote (RE: the dump on Canton holding Bruce's engine):

>It is about 50 meters long by ten meters wide by five meters
>(?) deep.

For those of us who are Luddites regarding measuring things, John's figures work out to about 50 yards X 10 yards X 5 yards, or very roughly 2,500 cubic yards.  To put that into a visual perspective, a football field is about 55 yards wide; so, think of a heap of trash standing between the 40- and 50-yard lines, running the entire width of the field and stacked about five feet high and you get a rough approximation of the trash pile TIGHAR may have to dig through.  If you find a transmission for a '55 Chevy. I'll give you $30 for it.  You deliver, right?

******************

Oh sure right. FOB, sign here and pay all freight charges within 10 days....

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:56:33 EST
From:         Sam Ginder
Subject:      Re: Castaways of Gardner Island

How do I contact Mike Ruiz?
Sam Ginder (#2180)

***************

By posting here and he will email you? Mike?

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:58:04 EST
From:         Sam Ginder
Subject:      Re: Castaways of Gardner Island

Mike:
Thanks for the info on AE's plane. If the picture we have is indeed the Lockheed then it had to have been in the trees and did not break up and covered by the surf. Also people claim to have seen an aircraft wreck on Niku (3 separate sightings). If the Lockheed was on Niku under the trees, there must be remnants somewhere even if Niku residents stripped the plane for usable materials. Something must be left. Why is Ric concentrating on bones? Seems to me looking for the remnants of AE's plane would be more fruitful ... if either are there.
Sam Ginder (#2180)

***************************

We are concentrating on the bones right now because we have hard measurements and so on to work with. Believe me, when we get back to the island we will *definitely* be concentrating on wreckage searching.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:59:45 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Re: Canton engine

Re: Engines and reality

I too spent time on Guam as well as Okinawa, in 1958. There were all kinds of diversions on both islands, unlike Canton which according to Bruce, opportunities for R&R were nonexistent. I agree that an old radial engine on Guam would be no big deal considering the proximity to both Tinian and Saipan, both had WW2 Japanese fighter bases.

Guam, however, is about 1000 miles north of  Lae and no where near the assumed flight path of AE. Anyone seeing an old radial there would have no reason to connect it to the missing Electra. On the other hand, Canton is only a few hundred miles SSE of her destination, Howland. By the way Tom, had you ever heard of Amelia Earhart in 1971?

Love to all
Marty724C
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:04:47 EST
From:         Bruce Yoho
Subject:      Re: Engine & Reality

OK Marty,

This engine was in such bad shape that anyone that would come around and see what I was doing thought I was nuts. There was not much to look at there where cylinder heads that were corroded off sand packed into the cylinder above the piston and this was like concrete hammer and chisel would not break it loose a few grains would come off but that is it. Nuts and bolts frozen and wrenches did not want to fit tight enough to turn without rounding off.

Del Did take pictures but not that many. He was not a camera bug. I have viewed his slides to see if he had the engine in the back ground of a picture by accident he did not even have a picture of the corner of the building where I had the engine.

I have viewed some pictures from Forest Blair for the same reason and other attempts at jogging my memory.

Censored????? Marty Ric does a good job for our public Forum. If you have questions you can e-mail me, BYOHO@AOL.COM I am not afraid of anything, as I am not trying to push this engine on any one.

Sacred Cow????? don't think so I am in this just like anyone else, to solve the mystery for mankind. I have spent my money, my time and my energy in this pursuit just like the rest.

Creditable????? Time will tell, at least I do not have to worry about my conscience on this.

Kung Butaei
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:05:28 EST
From:         Bruce Yoho
Subject:      Re: Engine & Reality

Thanks Tom you said it better than I did and it sounds as you know how others thought on distant out posts.

LTM
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:35:42 EST
From:         John Clauss
Subject:      Re: Canton engine

You are absolutely right about the volume of debris and coral ruble we will potentially have too deal with.

That will be about $35,000 for the transmission, in advance, no guarantee.

LTM
John
**************************************************************

From Ric

Make that 35,000 coral rubles.  (New unit of monetary measure in Phoenix Islands.)

(I'm baaaack.)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:45:08 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Work in England

Vern recommended that while we're in England we try to track down Gallagher's relatives by checking with Cambridge University where he supposedly got his training for the Colonial Service.

We're definitely interested in doing that.   Whether or not we have to go to Cambridge to do it will depend upon how much information we can find at the Western Pacific High Commission archive.  They'll have any official paperwork. For personal letters which may have gone home to his mother, we'll need to track the family.  We'll also be chasing Fred Noonan's mother, Mary Egan, at the Public Records Center near London.

We'll have lots to keep us busy.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:50:15 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Wreck Photo

Just got my TIGHAR TRACKS magazine (excellent by the way!!) and after reading the article about the wreck photo, I can't help but feel that this is some type of seaplane. The article says that the forward, right side of the nose shows that the skin has been pushed inward due to impact damage. I think that it was manufactured that way at the factory. It looks like the natural flare of the hull of a seaplane. Plus, there is no sign of the L-10's nose landing lights. How about a Grumman Widgeon? I see a wrecked seaplane, however I don't see a man in a gorilla costume. I know that Ric and Pat are some pretty sharp folks and I know that they have posted this pictured on some other web sites in order to possibly find out more about it. Right?   Gary Moline    Orlando

***************************************************************
More from Gary Moline

I made the classic mistake of suggesting something BEFORE doing a little research first!! The Wreck Photo aircraft cannot be a Grumman Widgeon as they had Ranger six cylinder in-line engines! However, I still feel that we are looking at a seaplane. Better leave now before I say something else dumb! Not that I would be the first!  LTM   Gary Moline      Orlando

**************************************************************

From Ric

(polite silence)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:52:11 EST
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Canton Engine

Hi, Bruce,

I'm with you!  Illegitamati non carborundum.

LTM

Bill Moffet 2156
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:54:21 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Canton engine

Marty Joy wrote:

> By the way Tom, had you ever heard of Amelia Earhart in 1971?

Sure, been reading about her since I was kid, which was longer ago than I care to think about. In fact, I think I read a book about her while I was on Guam.

My (admittedly obscure) point was that most age-20-something people have little or no interest in history, and the sight of an old beat-up radial engine would have been no more remarkable than a Chevy V-8, except as an object of scorn or derision. It's unlikely they would have wasted any film on it. Not even on Canton.

(Now that I think about it, most 20-something GI's would probably have shown MORE interest in the Chevy V-8.)

Bruce, of course, was an engine mechanic, he was interested in the engine, and he took photos of it. I can't imagine that anyone else, unless they also possessed a mechanical interest or an exquisite sense of history, would have burned film on it, or taken any more than a passing interest.

Tom #2179
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:17:07 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Re: Wreck Photo

Got an e-mail from another forum member (Daryll Bolinger) and he brought up a good point. He believes that the aircraft is also a seaplane based on the idea that the photo arrears to be that of a high-wing aircraft, like a seaplane. In order for it to be a low wing aircraft like an L-10, this particular aircraft looks like it would have had to have had it's entire wing and center section removed from the fuselage and then placed on top of the fuselage. If the cockpit section merely broke off and fell on the ground in front of the wings, then there would be evidence of the remainder of the cabin on top of and behind the wing and center section.

For us new folks, where did this photo come from? How long have you all been working on it? Keep up the good effort. Be advised that in your absence, Pat did a great job!     Gary Moline     Orlando

**************************************************************

From Ric

Maybe you and Daryll could form the Seaplane Club (similar to the No Land Club).  Others have expressed a like opinion.  Opinions are good.  Without differing opinons there would be no horse races.

I have two suggestions:

1. Bring up the TIGHAR website at http://www.tighar.org and go to the most recent Earhart Project Research Bulletin.  there you'll find links to two TIGHAR Tracks articles which will give you the background on the Wreck Photo.

2. Let me know just exactly what seaplane you think this is.  Remember, it has be of stressed aluminum construction and have at least two radial engines with two-bladed, variable pitch but not full-feathering props.  (Hint: we''ve
already eliminated the Grumman Goose).  If you can find a candidate we can then talk about internal wing structure, windshield centerpost shape, and other interesting details.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:38:35 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Re: Wreck Photo

A suggestion as to what type of aircraft it might be is the tough part!! My fairly extensive personal library doesn't have every seaplane from that era so I don't have a suggestion. I saw a TV show that mentioned the Boeing 247 transport last night, but my research shows that it had three-bladed props. I don't know! I even dug up some photos that I took of a wrecked Goose in the Bahamas to try and compare with the wreck photo, but couldn't see enough to warrant any further research. If you say it's not a Goose, then that's good enough for me.

How do you explain the wing of a low wing acft being fairly symmetrically placed on top of the fuselage? And in one piece? It seems to me that if the wing were ripped off of the fuselage by the surf that it would have been in terrible shape by the time that it got placed back on top of the fuselage?! Am I just the devil's advocate? We all must keep an open mind! After all, I want what you and every one else on this forum wants, the truthful solution to this aviation mystery! Thanks for the info on where to learn about the history of the wreck photo.   Gary Moline    Orlando

**************************************************************

From Ric

When I see a wreck, I look at its condition and try to envision the events that left it looking the way it does - like running a videotape in reverse. To do that, I first have to have a really good handle on the structural make-up of that particular aircraft so that I can try to correctly account for the forces it would take to create the kind of damage that is present.

Let me play my imaginary Wreck Photo tape for you (forward):

Scene 1 - Earhart's Electra is parked on the reef-flat at Nikumaroro, perfectly intact except for maybe a blown tire or two.  The sea is calm and, at high tide, the water comes up to its belly at about the trailing edge of the wing.

Scene 2 - The sea has kicked up and big rollers are sweeping across the reef-flat.  The airplane is quite buoyant with all those empty fuel tanks and the waves lift it up and carry it shoreward until it reaches an area about fifty feet from shore where there is some very rough coral and there is something of a trench in front of the actual beach (that's what it's really like).  When the airplane reaches this area it slams to a stop, wedged in the coral, nose pointing roughly shoreward.

Scene 3 - KerWham!  A big wave hits the now immobilized airplane and rips off the empennage, leaving the interior of the cabin exposed to the next assault.

Scene 4 - KaPOW!  Another comber (the irresistible force) engulfs the fuselage (the immovable object) and literally blows the cabin apart right up to and including the roof over the cockpit.  The same wave has a similar effect on the engine cowlings, leaving only the firmly attached ring cowls in place. The force of the impact also rips off the outer wing panels and spins the airplane around so that what's left (the immensely strong center-section, the engines, and the nose section) is facing seaward but still hung up in the coral.

Scene 5 - Wham!  The third wave drives the wreck shoreward.  The starboard engine snags on a coral outcrop and is ripped from its mountings (to later be found by Bruce Yoho in thigh-deep water about fifty feet from shore).  The rest of the wreck is deposited in the shoreline vegetation where it is later photographed.  The nose section, still attached to the center-section by the belly skins, has fallen down because there is no cabin structure left to support it.

Pure speculation.  Absolute fantasy.  The product of an over-active imagination (and an intimate familiarity with the Wreck Photo, NR16020, and Nikumaroro).

LTM
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:43:30 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Ultra light

OK Bruce

Rather than risk being told again to go "Kung Butaei" myself, I'm going to change the subject of my postings.

Ric, the Ultralight you plan to take to Niku1111: I understand that it's a Quicksilver MX. Is it the "Super" model with double -surface wings and ailerons? It's probably a two-seater, right? I have about 50 hours in an MX (single seat, single surface wing) they are really a lot of fun, but quite a handful in high wind or turbulence. It seems like a good platform for spotting wreckage in the jungle, because you can fly low and slow. You are probably aware of this already, but there is a way to transport the bird with the engine, root tube, and pilot cage assembled. All that need be done to make it flyable is to put on the wings and tailfeathers, crank up the kingpost and go flying. I have some expertise in this area, let me know if I can be of assistance.

Marty724C

***************************************************************

From Ric

Actually, the best person to answer your questions would be the owner and pilot extraordinaire of the TIGHAR ultra-light - team member John Clauss. Tell 'em Johnny.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:54:43 EST
From:         Bette Norlund
Subject:      Re: Wreck Photo

RIC, I am new to this forum but have gained a lot of information by reading and doing some research on my own.  Actually what sparked my interest (although I have always been curious about E. A.'s life and disappearance) was when I read she once gave a lecture at the theatre where I work parttime.  I think it was in 1934.  Anyway folks have been referring to Guam and by luck I have some slides which were taken there around 1967 (68).  I was dateing a sailor who was on the U.S.S. Proteus (sp) and he was stationed there for 2 years.  I have not looked at the slides for years but I think I know where I stored them.  Don't know if this is of any interest to you or not but I will love to help in any way I can.
LTM
Bette

**************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks Bette, but unless your photos happen to show the Wreck Photo airplane from a different angle (or even the same angle) I can't think of what bearing they might have on the Earhart case.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:19:17 EST
From:         Craig Fuller
Subject:      Wrecks

Doing a search on the Phoenix Islands the only USAF accidents I came up with were the C-47 on Sydney and the B-24 on Canton. However the USAAF database I am using is probably missing 50% of the records. Checking with WFI, who was able to add a number of USN accidents to the list I came up with:

10/18/43 PB4Y missing between Canton and Funafuti
        Isn't Gardner right under this path? Wouldn't that be funny (in a sick ironic way) if the aircraft in the bush story was a PB4Y. It would sure shut up everyone that says an airplane could be hiding on the island after all the searching.

10/31/44 PBJ taxi accident at Canton
01/11/44 PBJ missing between Canton and Tutui
03/16/40 PBY-2 hit reef on take-off off Canton Island
08/02/44 PV-1 gear up landing on Canton
08/13/43 PBY-5 beached on Canton after being shot up by an Emily
10/22/44 PBJ taxi accident on Canton
12/15/42 PBM hit reef while taxing at Canton Island
02/12/43 PBY-5A had engine fire on take off and sank at Canton
02/16/44 PBY-5 sank off Canton Island

You will note that none of these aircraft have a single row radial.

WFI claimed to have corresponded with Ernest Zehms and gave the following story:

"Shortly after the [USGC Loran] unit had been placed on [Gardner] island the Commanding Officer, Charles Sopko, became ill. He had to be transported to Canton Island as there were no medical facilities at Gardner. He was accompanied on the trip by Dick Evans and Herb Moffett, two additional members of the unit. On the return trip to Gardner Island, Evans and Moffett brought back several large pieces of sheet metal that had been removed from a B-24 at Canton. The bomber had run off the runway, was badly damaged and cut up for scrap. The two had brought back pieces to attempt to make useful items, but found the metal too hard to work with and abandoned it."

OK, to our Gardner Coast Guardsmen; can you verify this or is it just another story? Is Dick Evans one of the forum members? The name is very familiar. This could explain the probable B-24 part that the NTSB lost and possibly the piece of sheet aluminum (the artifact number escapes me at the moment). I know the rivet pattern was compared to a number of WWII aircraft. Was a B-24 included? Which one and did they allow TIGHAR to really crawl ALL over it?

PS
Did you know that Bulletin 25 has been published? I am being sent a copy.

LTM

Craig Fuller
TIGHAR 1589C
Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research
AAIR                   www.sonic.net/azfuller
**************************************************************

From Ric

Last question first:

Yes, I have a copy, except they're not calling it Bulletin 25.  It's just "National Register Bulletin - Guidelines For Evaluating And Documenting Historic Aviation Properties."  It's not as bad as the initial draft - but it's pretty bad.  We'll review it in the upcoming issue of TIGHAR Tracks.  Now - back to the important stuff...

The PB4Y1 that went missing between Canton and Funafuti October 18, 1943 (Bureau No. 32102) appears in the War diary of Fleet Air Wing Two.  The airplane is listed as missing, along with its ten-man crew.  In October 1943 there were a whole bunch of people living on Gardner right across the passage from where the airplane wreckage is rumored to be. On November 17th a PBY arrived with a survey party to look for a place to put the Loran station. Pretty hard to think that a Liberator could just sort of sneak in there.

There was also a PBM-3D (Bureau No. 45236) that disappeared between Canton and Funafuti in September  of 1944, but by then the Coasties were in residence on Gardner.

When Zehms talked to the San Francisco Chronicle back in 1992 the pieces of metal came from a B-25.   When he later talked to TIGHAR's Russ Matthews the pieces were small scraps that were supposedly to be used to make watch bands. I don't remember Dick Evans or Herb Moffett as being part of that story.  We talked to them both and Dick Evans is indeed currently on the forum.

We have repeatedly tried to fit our piece of aircraft skin (2-2-V-1) to a B-24.  I had unlimited access to B-24D Strawberry Bitch at the USAF Museum, including the use of a cherry-picker to check upper surfaces.  There's no way that piece of skin came from a B-24 or a PB4Y-1.  We've also been all over the North American B-25 (PBJ), and the Lockheed PV-1, and the Consolidated PBY, the Douglas C-47, and on and on and on.  Nothing fits, including the standard Lockheed Model 10, but the Electra comes closer than anything else.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:46:04 EST
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      Swan Crewmember

I had another long talk with Swan crew member Clair Avenell. Clair was assigned topside, often had duty at the helm and I consider him a reliable source. I sent him a copy of the log for Nov. 7, 1942 and asked him about the first stop at Gardner, arriving at 1850 and departing at 2135. He doesn't think anyone went ashore at that time but doesn't remember the reason for the stop. The muster rolls which would show "unenlisted passengers" coming on board or getting off don't show any activity for that date. On the point of cameras, Clair was quite definite that enlisted crew were not allowed to have personal cameras, that all cameras and radios had to be turned in after Pearl Harbor. Unless you were an official Navy photog, cameras would have to be with officers. Which brings up another point. I have accounted for all the officers with the exception of an Ensign Raymond J. Briesmeyer. The crewmen I have talked to all remember Harper, Napier, and Sorenson quite well, but no one remembers Briesmeyer. Yet he did stand watch on the bridge on this cruise. Maybe was a passenger, however was not carried on the passenger list.  Clair Avenell suggested I try to find one of the mess attendants who served the officers and often were in a position to overhear conversations. He indicated that, in accordance with the times, they had two African-American and one Filipino mess attendants. I will look into that possibility.

Smooth Sailing,
Ron Dawson 2126

***************************************************************

From Ric

Not to get all mysterious or anything, but the stop at Gardner on Sunday, Nov. 8th doesn't make any sense.   Log entries for earlier in the day say that they're "enroute Canton Island to Suva."  They sight Gardner when they're 10 miles out (That's about right.  Been there, done that.) at 1640 while it's still daylight.  But by the time they're "lying to off Gardner Island" at 1850 it's just about dark. They hang around for two and three-quarter hours until 2135.  Then they leave.

If nobody comes aboard and nobody goes ashore, why on earth would you put the ship at risk by coming in close to a dangerous reef in the dark?  Also, if a ship appears offshore near the village (the log doesn't say what part of the island they were lying off) it is almost inconceivable that the locals wouldn't send out a delegation in a canoe or a surf boat.

We don't have the whole story yet.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:59:26 EST
From:         John Clauss
Subject:      Ultra light

Our ultralight is an MXLII Sport, two seater, double surface wings, Puddlejumper floats and powered by a 618 Rotax.

Wind isn't as much of a problem as turbulence and gusts.  These things go sideways and up and down as fast as they seem to go forward.  It can make for a less than comfortable ride.  I fly in the Sierras in the vicinity of Lake Tahoe.

Shipping was a tough one last trip.  We paid a pretty high price in damage and repairs.  The plane must be substantially disassembled and packaged in a way that will keep airline freight handlers and freight forwarding companies from damaging it.  Like other parts of these expeditions, an expensive  lesson was learned.  The next time around I'll to do my best to make sure the plane makes the trip from California to Niku and back in one piece.

LTM

John 142
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:03:24 EST
From:         Marty JOy
Subject:      idiots

Your speculative description of what happened to the 10E sounds quite plausible. All that remains is to find the wreck and the coveted "any idiot artifact" altho I don't quite understand why we are so concerned with the idiots of the world.

Marty 724C

**************************************************************

From Ric

Because we have met the idiots and they are us.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:58:24 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Ultra light

From John Clauss  0142CE  (ClaussEnt@compuserve.com)

> Shipping was a tough one last trip.  We paid a pretty high price
> in damage and repairs.  The plane must be substantially disassembled
> and packaged in a way that will keep airline freight handlers and
> freight forwarding companies from damaging it.  Like other parts
> of these expeditions, an expensive  lesson was learned.  The next
> time around I'll to do my best to make sure the plane makes the
> trip from California to Niku and back in one piece.

I find myself wondering whether a fixed wing ultralight is the right plane to use for Niku. We would probably be willing to bring into the mix a motorized hang glider-type ultralight if asked. These are easily shipped, difficult to damage, and very reliable. As with any ultralight, wind and turbulence can be a factor but ultimately you are looking at a device that is cheaper and easier to ship than a fixed wing, even is disassembled.

Thomas Van Hare
***************************************************************

From Ric

Well, this is John's department because he'll have to fly the thing, but our decision to go with the machine we did was based on:

- The desirability of operating on floats.  There are very few places to fly off the land but the lagoon is always right there.

- We really need two-place capability to accomplish the photographic and command-and-control mission.

- The nature of the work will be mostly low and slow, often in rather windy conditions.  John's airplane is an overpowered beast that can just flat fly itself out of trouble.

-  Our single biggest concern is safety.  I'd rather put up with more expense and hassle in getting a solid airplane out there than compromise on safety.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:15:45 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Wreck Explanation

Thanks for the explanation on how the L-10 possibly went from flying machine to "The Wreck Photo". We'd be very interested to hear your description of what happened to the airplane between the time of the photo and today. I would guess that one of five things happened, if, in fact that is the L-10 that we all desire.

1) It was washed back out to sea (huge storm).
2) It deteriorated and was swallowed by the sand, underbrush, jungle etc.
3) It was removed by someone.
4) Any combination of the above.
5) Any combination of the above, but (now take a deep breath and try to relax Ric) not on Niku.

Just wondering what your thoughts were on the post photo time frame were. PS  Go ahead, I'm ready for my whipping!    Gary Moline   Orlando
***************************************************************

From Ric

Well, let me get out the cat o' nine tails here.  Let's see:

>1) It was washed back out to sea (huge storm).

I suppose that it's possible but generally speaking things just get pushed further inland.

>2) It deteriorated and was swallowed by the sand, underbrush, jungle etc.

In my opinion, that's the most likely answer.

>3) It was removed by someone.

Almost inconceivable.  It would take a mammoth engineering effort that would be impossible to keep secret.

>4) Any combination of the above.

You mean like maybe someone finding one of the engines out on the reef and slinging it away with a helicopter?

>5) Any combination of the above, but (now take a deep breath and try to relax Ric) not on Niku.

Sure.  That's the "null hypothesis" that makes Niku look so good.  In order for that to be the case it would mean that all of the evidence we have amassed to suggest that Niku is the right place is actually random, unrelated information that could be gathered from a close look at any Pacific island.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:17:56 EST
From:         Dave
Subject:      Re: Ultra light

John, just like a DC-3, the fastest they go is right off the side of the runway.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:15:45 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Wreck explanation

Ric wrote:

> In order for that to be the case it would mean that all of
> the evidence we have amassed to suggest that Niku is the
> right place is actually random, unrelated information....

Welcome to chaos theory. Personally, I am always shocked at how so much "random, unrelated information" appears to point at something real but is, in the end, just determined to be random and unrelated. Cross your fingers, go to Niku, and if you are right the puzzle is solved. If you are wrong, well, don't be too shocked; just swallow hard and go back into research.

Thomas Van Hare
***************************************************************
From Ric

Let's see, so far we've done that four times (if you don't count Canton).  I
think we know the drill.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:00:25 EST
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      History

The quote, "Those who can not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.", referred to in several recent posting as author unknown, was from George Santayana.  See page 16 in the book, THE RAPE OF NANKING, THE FORGOTTEN HOLOCAUST OF WORLD WAR II, by Iris Chang, copyright 1997 by Penguin books.

        Dick Pingrey 908C
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:01:55 EST
From:         Pat Thrasher
Subject:      The Forum this week

Well, folks, let's hear some chatter in the outfield!! Just because Ric is out of town doesn't mean we have to put our keyboards in the trash. Surely someone has something inflammatory to say?

Pat, hoping to stir up some excitement while the cat's away.

PS--sorry for nothing yesterday, I am on two deadlines this week....
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:34:50 EST
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      Itasca off Howland

Since Pat requested some posts, I do have a question. This is directed to Randy or anybody else that could help.

I remember in my readings that while the Itasca lay off Howland island waiting for AE, somebody set up an experimental High Frequency Direction Finder on the island. If this is true, can anybody expand on that?

Daryll
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:38:14 EST
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: The Forum this week

How's it going - any news from Ric et. al.  ??

No break throughs yet ?

Perhaps they're stuck on the M25 <g>.

Simon  #2120
***********************

Well, yesterday evening there was a peasouper and they had a bit of a time finding their B&B in it....

The results are *very* promising. Turns out the story of the bones in Fiji is very complicated and there is a ton of correspondence which they are going through very carefully. As of yesterday no notes as to final disposal of the bones themselves, but the WPHC was very interested indeed in the whole thing and there was a lot of hoorah over it.

Pat, who will let Ric tell the whole story of how the doctor in Tarawa got into very hot water when he placed a quarantine on the port.....
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:41:37 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: The Forum this week

Since I hadn't gotten my daily TIGHAR fixes the past few days, I figured you guys must have skipped out of town with all of the funds you have been raising!  Seriously, I thought Ric was back in town.

To the forum: I received a courtesy copy of the Amelia Earhart Society Newsletter, dated Jan. 1997, and it doesn't have a lot of good things to say about TIGHAR.  Nevertheless, it does make some good points about some of the past claims made by TIGHAR: "We did it!  We solved the mystery!" NIKU IV was claimed to be the "Once and for all" trip.  Sound familiar?  I certainly do not want to disabuse TIGHAR of its scholarly research, but strong claims made to the press and public diminish the organization's standing, when these claims do not hold up.  Ric and Pat know well my concerns (and past arguments) regarding this sort of thing.  I believe that the forum is doing well in keeping a skeptical perspective on developments.

If anyone wants to join the AE Society, call 303-469-1153, 496-1765 fax.  It is located at 1530W 10th Ave, Broomfield, CO 80020.  Just information, not an endorsement.

**************************

I knew I could rely on you, Randy.

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:52:00 EST
From:         Pat Robinson
Subject:      Re: Niku wreck

I am an avid reader of the forum...But am not a member of TIGHAR...

Recently there has been a lot of interest concerning going to Canton vs. Niku...

I read with interest your story of what happened to AE's plane after she crash landed...

My question is if her airplane broke into pieces and the major wing structure washed up on shore and was pushed inland, surely some large portion of that would have been found, either by the islanders or the Coast Guard there...

Having been on several remote tours, you get bored...You start to explore the surroundings...Surely one of the CG guys stationed there would have found something...(Besides the engine on Canton)...

Keep up the good work...Pat

***************************

Well, it seems that in fact the wreckage *was* found (in the sense of known about) by the islanders. But what did not happen was any connection to anything important.  Correct me if I'm wrong, you Coast Guard guys, but you didn't have too much freedom to wander did you? And the islanders (the colonists) didn't know what they were looking at. For that matter, even if the USCG fellows *had* found wreckage, I don't know that anyone would have thought, at the time, that it was particularly important. There was a war on, and while Niku was outside the war zone it wouldn't surprise me a lot if a bunch of 19 year old kids would just have assumed--as the Gilbertese did--that the wreckage was connected to the war. Finding stuff isn't just as simple as laying eyes on it, it has to be seen by educated eyes.

Case in point: some months ago I was wandering through a pasture and spotted a rock. I picked it up and brought it home, because it was no ordinary rock.... it was a stone tool, with tool marks, use marks, and so on. It was lying in plain sight on open ground (not even in the grass) and yelled at me "I'm an artifact!!" But to the (19 year old) barn helper--a young woman with a good background and education, BTW-- it had looked like just another rock for weeks. She saw it every day and never noticed it.

Anyway, yes people "found" it but they weren't the right people.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:49:24 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Re: Niku wreck

If the "wreck photo" aircraft was located on Niku and it was washed up into the tree line from the beach and then was absorbed by the jungle, etc as Ric has surmised, then it should be fairly obvious that you all will sweep the tree line around the perimeter of the island on your next visit and it will be case  closed! If I'm correct, then why bother looking in the lagoon and in the deep water around the island? I'll betcha ten bucks that I am missing something here!   Gary Moline    Orlando

*********************

I'm not sure we *will* spend a lot of time and energy on deep water work next time. The tentative plans call for serious work on Kanawa Point, serious work on the lagoon shore opposite the main passage (which was where wreckage is reported by the folks now on Funafuti), some work on Nuziran.... Where else? Tom, you are obviously better suited to discuss this than I am!

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:52:27 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Re: Itasca off Howland and HF D/F

Where to start?  Most of the information is anecdotal, third hand, etc.  Yes, there was an experimental HF/DF on Howland.  It was run by Radioman 3rd Class Cipriani, detached from the Itasca for the purposes of DF'ing her signals.  It was run by batteries extracted from the Itasca, but the radioman started the radio early during the night, and by the time he really needed to use it, the batteries had basically ran down.  Where did the radio come from?  Stafford, who was in the Navy Communications and ONI departments then and during the war, did some research after his retirement when he was working at the Library of Congress.  He claims that the radio was essentially the same rig as what AE had in her plane, only set up for use on land and on ship.  It came from the Fleet Air Base, Pearl Harbor, where it was an experimental unit, probably under examination for future utilization by the Navy.  Radioman 1st class Leo Bellarts of the Itasca claims it was a breadboard (read very experimental) unit, that when came back aboard ship, was wrapped completely around the turning axis several times so that the wires were broken, and thus was unusable.  I guess they did not know about slip rings back then.  What was its capability under the best of circumstances?  Unknown.  Who was the manufacturer?  Unknown.  Did AE know about it?  Only if Putnam was knowledgeable enough about it to pass it on to AE during phone calls.  AE was expecting a radio rig (but not DF) on her first try to Howland (from Honolulu).  In all of my correspondence on file, there is very little mention of the HF D/F during 1937, with the exception of Capt. Thompson's report to the Coast Guard.  The rest of the stuff above comes from 1960's interviews and manuscripts.  I do know that the radio was not calibrated in direction.  It was set up away from the Howland living facilities, and was never calibrated against the Itasca prior to the flight.  Itasca never made a run around the island, which was the standard practice for calibration (actually, aboard ship, the ship turns, D/Fing against a fixed location).  There was some calibrations made a couple of days later against the Itasca, which most people assume was a reading against AE (NNW/SSE), unless they read the radio logs in excruciating detail.
Hope all of this helps.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:18:48 EST
From:         Daryll Bolinger
Subject:      Re: Howland Equipment

I just wanted to say thanks for a prompt and knowledgeable response your letter has gone into my SAVE file also your CD's are on my list of things I want to buy.

Daryll
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:24:34 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Niku wreck and plans for Niku IIII

Sure, Pat, glad to.  Gary, the point is, we're not putting all our eggs in the wreck photo basket.  The wreck photo is one bit of data, and a pretty equivocal one at that.  The strongest data we have are: (a) the oral accounts from Funafuti of wreckage on the reef combined with the airphoto evidence that there was and perhaps is indeed something roughly where the wreckage was described as being; and (b) the historical and archeological data pointing to bones and shoes meeting a lot of criteria for being Amelia's being found somewhere in the Kanawa Point and/or Aukaraime area.  There's still plenty of time to kick plans around, but what we've generally talked about is a phased approach.  Probably first hit the areas where the wreckage was reported (and where Ric posits the wreck photo MIGHT have been taken).  Probably deploy the whole team there and go over it with a fine-toothed comb.  If we find the airplane, fine, but if not, then we'd be into probing in the lagoon, etc. where pieces of the plane might have washed and been lodged.  Regardless of whether we find the plane, we'd  deploy a team at Kanawa Point to examine that area very closely for bones and other evidence.  If we find bones, fine, but whether we do or not, we'd then do roughly the same thing at Aukaraime, so we'd have covered, as best we can, all the areas where all the various hypotheses and evidence suggest that anything Ameliaesque might be.

Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:26:45 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Cordia subcordata

Knowing the wonderful ways of the Forum and its capacity for finding answers to the weirdest questions, I have one to put out for consideration, on behalf of Barb Norris, her students (who posed the question and stumped me) and myself.

Gallagher says the box in which the bones were shipped from Niku was made of Kanawa wood -- scientific name Cordia subcordata -- from a tree that grew close to the bones discovery site.  The only place on Niku where the New Zealand 1938 survey party recorded Kanawa as growing was on Kanawa Point.  The question Barb's students (who call themselves the Airhearts) posed to me was: "Why did Kanawa grow only on Kanawa Point?"  I answered, of course, that we don't KNOW that this is the only place it grew; it's just the only place it's recorded as growing.  But of course, if there's something about C. subcordata that greatly restricts where it can grow, this would greatly restrict the number of areas on the island where the bones could have been found, too.  So -- are there any bio-experts out there who can tell us what makes a Kanawa tree happy?

Love to Mother,
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:33:08 EST
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Satellites in the Belfry

Meteor showers this week make me wonder if a "bird" flies over Niku and if so could it find anything helpful?  Ric wrote "having a formidable faction of NASA guys in this forum...No Land Club* ", I suppose the idea has been discussed and dropped.  Right?

LTM

Bill Moffet 2156
*******************

We have looked into this with both NASA and the French (SpotImage). The problem is that there isn't any existing coverage of the area. To get coverage, a satellite would have to be reprogrammed to do an overflight--always a chancy thing, because suppose it's socked in with clouds for days? And the price tag was not small at all.

We even looked into having the Shuttle astronauts take some pics for us--you know, aim a large-format camera out the window. Never came to anything.

It's just such a remote area, no one's terribly interested in it and there isn't good coverage. If that's changed, or someone knows something different, we would be very happy to know it.

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:35:33 EST
From:         Pat Thrasher
Subject:      The research trip to England

I have talked to Ric several times this week, and there is a *ton* of stuff and they are up to their hips in files and folders and learning a lot.

The whole bones thing was a *much* bigger deal at the WPHC than we had any idea it was. The file was not closed for several years, and there was a lot of back and forth... but never any communication of the situation to London as far as they know now.

Ric will make a full report when he returns, of course, but I thought folks would like to know that there is something to report!

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:24:54 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      Re: Cordia subcordata

Tom King writes:

>Gallagher says the box in which the bones were shipped from
>Niku was made of Kanawa wood -- scientific name Cordia subcordata
>-- from a tree that grew close to the bones discovery site.

I know the above is not a director quote from Gallagher's logs, but something about Tom's phraseology struck me as strange.  As I read Tom's quote, I ASSUMED the following time line [A]: 1) the bones were found; 2) a Kanawa tree was felled;  3) a box was made from the tree for the bones.  An alternate time line [B] is also possible: 1) the bones were found; 2) an already downed/felled Kanawa tree was found; 3) a box was made from the tree for the bones.

The sequence is important I believe. Under [A] the tree is felled specifically for the box (and other uses?).  But how practical is that?  Would not just any container have sufficed to carry to bones? Why go to the problem of building a "box," unless maybe it was to be a coffin?

Does Gallagher specifically state that the Kanawa box was made from a tree near the bones or is there some room for interpretation such as " . . .a box was made from Kanawa wood, like the trees near where the bones were found."  or " . .  a box was made of Kanawa wood which is available here . . ."   There are dozens of variations of this theme I could go through, but seeing the actual text would accurately show what Gallagher said.

Does TIGHAR have a complete text of Gallagher's log on this issue and can you post it for our viewing?

The reason I'm making such a big deal over this is that I see no DIRECT connection between the Kanawa wood box and the site where the bones were found.  If Gallagher says it that way, great!  But if there is room for interpretation . . .well, it could be a waste of time looking for more clues at Kanawa Point when you're already on a very tight time line.

LTM
Dennis McGee #0149
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:26:16 EST
From:         Jon Watson
Subject:      Re: Cordia subcordata

Reference the Kanawa wood box, it would seem at least reasonable that having found bones, one would pack them up in a handy box one had around, as opposed to chopping down a tree to build a box...
ltm jon
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:32:48 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: The research trip to England

pant, pant, pant

*******************

<snerk>

On a more sober note, the last correspondence indicates that Hoodless was to keep the bones pending further orders, which did not come. They were still in the kanawa wood box. They may *still* be in that box, kicking around in a closet at the medical school in Suva.....
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:34:32 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Re: Cordia subcordata.

Tom King asked

>...are there any bio-experts out there who can tell us what makes a Kanawa
>tree happy?

Good friends and good wine?

Tom #2179
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:35:44 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Re: Ultralights

Thanks for the information. I see your point regarding the shipping problems. I agree that a steady wind is not as much of a problem as turbulence. I realize that the MX is already in hand, but has a powered para-sail been considered? granted it would be a single-seater, and an added expense (they aren't cheap either) but it might simplify the shipping problems.

Just a thought

Marty
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:00:36 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Cordia subcordata

Good points, Dennis.  Here's what we have:

Gallagher to an unnamed authority simply addressed as "Sir," 27th December 1940:

"Should any relatives be traced, it may prove of sentimental interest for them to know that the coffin in which the remains are contained is made from a local wood known as 'kanawa' and the tree was, until a year ago (sic: about the time the bones were found), growing on the edge of the lagoon, not very far from the spot where the deceased was found."

Gallagher to Isaac on Tarawa, 11th Feb. 1941 (it may be that this part of his message wasn't actually sent; it's crossed out on what we take to be the flimsy retained by the radio operator on Niku):

"Personal, should be delighted if you keep box but matter has been mentioned in private letter to High Commissioner who is interested in timber used and may ask to see it.  It would be fun to make one for yourself or perhaps a little tea table -- we have a little seasoned timber left.  Please let me know whether you prefer box or table and if former give any particular inside measurements."

From which we infer that the wood was pretty special.

P.B. Laxton, "Nikumaroro," Journal of the Polynesian Society, 1951, p. 151:

"One day, while returning by canoe we turned in to look over a projecting point of land which faced our house across the lagoon.  Some coconut palms grew near the lagoon, and tall, flame-colored kanawa (cordia subcordata) behind them, yielding excellent well-grained timber for building or furniture"

Which demonstrates the utility of constantly re-reading the literature for things you missed before.  Kanawa Point doesn't face the village by any stretch I can give my imagination; the Taraia peninsula does.  So, clearly, Kanawa was not found ONLY on Kanawa Point.

Thanks, Dennis!

LTM
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:02:56 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: cordia subcordata

Tom #2179 suggests that to keep a Kanawa happy you need good friends and good wine.  And a loaf of bread?

LTM
Tom King, # (where IS that membership card?)

************************

Well, we've got the wilderness and the singing......

P
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:17:26 EST
From:         Dick Evans
Subject:      Re: Niku wreck

People keep asking why the Coast Guardsmen on Gardner didn't find something.  I keep saying, "Because we didn't look."  Pat's comment suggested that we may not have had much freedom to roam around. We had plenty of time and freedom to do anything we felt like doing but we did nothing.  Perhaps you would enjoy a description of a typical day on Unit 92.

I was a Loran operator. From the time we went on the air, I never went longer than 12 hours that I was not on the scope. For several months I stood the 4-to-8 watch. My day started at 3:45 AM when the radioman woke me up. I would go to the galley and drink a cup of coffee. Coffee that had been brewing since the previous morning at  6 AM. Needless to say it was delicious. Then it was down to the Loran Shack and onto the scope. This consisted of four hours of watching a green line. As long as it didn't move, you did nothing. I would move maybe three times in four hours. The rest of the time you sat there.

At 8 AM relief came. I would go up to the galley and eat breakfast. Scrambled powdered eggs one day; oatmeal the next. Then I would hit the sack until around 11 AM. At that time I would walk around a bit, maybe go to the galley for a fresh cup of coffee, usually sat down and read a magazine. At 12 Noon we had lunch. Canned meat and vegetable hash every day of the week. From noon until 4 PM I would resume the reading,  or sitting around. Once or twice a week I would go swimming. Usually took a shower. At 4 PM it was back on the scope watching the green line.

On this shift we got a big break that would make the watch much more exciting. At somewhere around 5:30 our scheduled relief would relieve us temporarily while we went for supper. Usually some form of Spam where the cooks knocked themselves out to give us something different. After a year, there wasn't much of anything different. At 8 PM we were relieved.

At this point it was back to the galley and write letters - 10 or 20 a week. We got mail once a month and usually received 50 or 60 letters so we answered them. There was absolutely nothing to write about since nothing ever happened. I once wrote 7 pages describing eating an apple. Read some more of the 50 magazines we were supplied and around 10 PM went back to bed. At 3:45 start over.

The area where natives have reported seeing plane wreckage was at the other end of the island, about two miles away, and we never went there. The only time we went close was one time when we had an unidentified sub and two of the seamen were sent about half-way down the beach with flare guns to watch for a vicious attack by Japanese submariners. None came. That morning when Ted Hiatt and I came off watch, we were sent down to relieve the seaman. But we stayed on the ocean side of the atoll and never went into the lagoon side where the plane is supposed to be. The really fascinating part was that we found two sea turtles up on land for mating. We turned them on their backs on the way down and rolled them back on their feet on the way back.

This was undoubtedly the most exciting thing that happened during the entire stay on our South Pacific paradise. After 50 years, it is still a joke. The really stupid part of this entire business of searching the island is that if someone had told us there was anything to be found, we would have had been happy to search that entire rock with a rake - just for something to do.

Love to father

Dick Evans
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:17:34 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: Cordia subcordata

By the time this makes the forum, there will be half a dozen similar posts!

In his letter to The Secretary, Western Pacific High Commission, Suva, Fiji, dated, December 27th, 1940, Gallagher wrote, in part:

"Should any relatives be traced, it may prove of sentimental interest to them to know that the coffin in which the remains are contained is made from a local wood known as 'kanawa' and the tree was, until a year ago, growing on the edge of the lagoon, not very far from the spot where the deceased was found."

This statement would clearly be of significance if it could be established that the kanawa trees did, in fact, grow in only one place... Or in only a couple of places.  But we can not be sure of that, so it's probably not a big help.

I wonder if any kanawa trees are there now?  If so, where are they growing?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:17:30 EST
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Kanawa Coffin Chronology

Dennis-

It looks as if scenario B is closest to the truth.  1.) The bones were found or more accurately, shown to Gallagher).  2.) Wood from a Kanawa tree felled the year before) was used to 3.) build a coffin especially for the bones.

The full text of the "Tarawa file" is indeed already mounted on the TIGHAR website.  The documents relevant to your questions go something like this...

  Document #6
  Telegram dated 15th October 1940
  From: The Secretary, Western Pacific High Commission, Suva
  To: The Officer-in-charge, Phoenix Scheme, Gardner Is.
  "...What have you done with the skeleton?  It should be carefully cared for and placed in a suitable coffin and kept in secure custody pending further instructions."

  Document #7
  Telegram dated 17th October 1940
  From: The Officer-in-Charge, P.I.S.S., Gardner Island.
  To: The Secretary for the W.P.H.C., Suva.
  ..."Bones at present in locked chest in office pending construction coffin."

  Document #9
  Confidential Letter dated 27th December 1940
  From: Gerald B. Gallagher, Officer-in-Charge, Phoenix Islands Settlement
Scheme
  To:  The Secretary, Western Pacific High Commission
  ..."Should any relative be traced, it may prove of sentimental interest for them to know that the coffin in which the remains are contained is made from a local wood known as "Kanawa" and the tree was, until a year ago, growing on the edge of the lagoon, not very far from the spot where the deceased was found."

Careful review of the source documents shows that Gallagher did "say it that way."  There definitely is a DIRECT connection between the Kanawa wood box and the site where the bones were found.  Whether or not that site is "Kanawa Point" is an educated guess on Tom's part, but certainly one worth checking out.

  LTM,
  Russ
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:42:19 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      England Preliminary Report (long)

For decades, many have speculated and some have alleged that there are secret U.S. government files which tell the true story of what happened to Amelia Earhart.  Those allegations may, in fact, be true - but the government is British, not American and the files, although once secret, are now merely secreted away.  Kenton Spading TIGHAR #1382CE and I have just spent a week reviewing those files, and the story they tell is both fascinating and tragic.

The files are in the archives of His Majesty's Western Pacific High Commission which are now held by the Archive and Library Section of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office facility in Hanslope Park, England.  Situated in a story- book English village about 60 miles northwest of London, the compound stands in stark contrast to the stone cottages and hedge-lined farms which surround it.  Security at "the Park" is not tight.  It is obsessive.  Tall steel fences topped with razor-wire ring the area and not just the buildings, but nearly every door inside every building, requires a swipe-card for admittance. Access to any section is on a strictly need-to-know basis and Kenton and I had to be escorted everywhere we went (which was limited to, to and from the office where we worked, the cafeteria, and the bathroom - thank you very much).  Within the Library and Archive Section, however, we had the complete and eager cooperation of the staff who never hesitated to drop their official work to answer questions, make inquiries (sorry - enquiries) of other departments on our behalf, or help us order up documents from the storage facility.

 Eventually we ended up with - oh, I would guess - probably two hundred pounds of bound indexes, correspondence registers, and battered folders brimming with yellowed paper.  Thanks to Kenton's careful preparatory work, many files were already pulled and waiting for us when we arrived, as were our security clearances.  We really had no idea how many more documents of interest remained to be seen at Hanslope Park (they had copied and sent the Hoodless report earlier this year) and we were prepared to move on to other possible sources of information elsewhere in England the very next day.  As it turned out, we spent the entire week at "the Park", buried in paper from about 8:30 to 6:00 every day and discussing our discoveries over a pint in a pub far into the night.  The facility is closed on Saturday so we spent our last day at the Public Record Center in Kew, just outside of London.  By the time we boarded our respective flights to head back across the Atlantic on Sunday we were both in an advanced state of information overload.  It will take months to fully digest the pages and pages of notes, and the roughly 600 pages of documents we photocopied, but here are a few of the more significant facts which have emerged.

1.  The discovery of the bones and artifacts on Gardner Island was not a minor administrative curiosity.  it was an event which captured the attention and included the personal involvement of the highest ranking British authorities in the Pacific for nearly a full year.  The matter was not delegated to junior officers but was handled directly and almost exclusively by:
The High Commissioner of the Western Pacific (His Excellency, Sir Harry Luke)
The Secretary of the Western Pacific High Commission (Henry Harrison Vaskess)
The Assistant Secretary (Patrick  Donald "Paddy" MacDonald)
The Central Medical Authority, W.P.H.C. (Dr. Duncan Campbell McEwan MacPherson)
The Acting Resident Commissioner of the Gilbert & Ellice Islands Colony (Francis George Leopold Holland)
Dr. Kingsley Rupert  Steenson, Senior Medical Officer, Gilbert & Ellice
Islands Colony

2.  The primary reason that the bones were of interest was the possibility that this was Amelia Earhart.  Contacting the American Consul in Sydney, Australia was considered and discussed on at least two occasions but was put off each time for fear of embarrassment.  As Sir Harry put it on October 26, 1940; "Thinnest rumours which may in the end prove unfounded are liable to be spread."

3.  We have important new information about the shoe parts found with the bones and there were two artifacts we've never heard about.  On July 1, 1941, Dr. Steenson was in Suva and was asked to look at the contents of the sextant box.  He said; "I have examined the contents of the parcel mentioned.  Apart from stating that they appear to be parts of shoes worn by a male person and a female person, I have nothing further to say. Those corks on brass chains would appear to have belonged to a small cask."

4.  The sextant box had dovetailed corners, as does the box in Pensacola known to have belonged to Noonan.   In August of 1941, the sextant box was shown to a Commander Nasmyth who was head of the Fijian Service Meteorological Society. He had this to say; "As the sextant box has no distinguishing marks, & since it was discovered that no sextant had been found, all I have been able to find out is that the make of the box - that is - the dovetailing of the corners - makes it appear to be of French origin."

5.  The box was also shown personally by Sir Harry Luke to a Mr. Gatty "who has expert knowledge of such matters"  (and whom I strongly suspect is the famous aerial navigator Harold Gatty).  " Mr. Gatty thinks that the box is an English one of some age and judges that it was used latterly merely as a receptacle.  He does not consider that it could in any circumstance have been a sextant box used in modern trans-Pacific aviation."

6.  We have a little more information about the location where the bones were found.  When Gallagher was in Suva in July 1941 he made the following entry in the official file:

"I have read the contents of this file with great interest.  It does look as if the skeleton was that of some unfortunate native castaway and the sextant box and other curious articles found nearby the remains are quite possibly a few of his precious possessions which he managed to save.

"2.  There was no evidence of any attempt to dig a well and the wretched man presumably died of thirst.  less than two miles away there is a small grove of coconut trees which would have been sufficient to keep him alive if he had only found it.  He was separated from those trees, however, by an impenetrable (sic)belt of bush.
GBG"

7.  Incidentally, Gallagher was a licensed airplane pilot.  Among his person effects on Gardner were a pilot's license, a pilot's log book, a flying helmet, and goggles.  He also had his own sextant and navigation tables.  His father was a doctor in the West African Medical Service and Gerald had attended a semester at St. Bartholomew's Medical School in London after completing an M.A. at Cambridge.  An educated lad was our Gerald.

8.  Ultimately, the decision that the bones could not be Earhart's (and that the Americans should not be told) was apparently based upon the evaluation of the skeleton as male and the judgment that the sextant was not of the type used in "modern trans-Pacific navigation."  Significantly, the Earhart file attached to the bones file includes correspondence and clippings about Earhart's flight and disappearance, none of which mention Noonan.  At no time in the investigation does anyone seem to know that there was a man and a woman on the airplane, much less any awareness that Noonan usually carried an old-fashioned marine sextant in addition to a modern instrument.

9.  The bottle found with the skull was not mentioned in any of the correspondence to Suva and is not discussed in any of the file notations or telegrams originating in Suva.  It seems quite possible that it never went to Suva with the other artifacts.  Its last known location is in the hands of the Acting Administrative Officer on Tarawa on September 30, 1940.

10.  The last official word on the bones themselves is on April 17, 1941 when Dr. Hoodless acknowledges the direct request of the High Commissioner to "retain the remains until further notice."  The bones, at that time, were in their kanawa wood coffin.  The possibility would seem to exist that they are still in that coffin and are still in storage.

There is much more to tell but those are the high points.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:59:56 EST
From:         Ted Whitmore
Subject:      Re: Kanawa trees

For Tom King  and for Ms Barb Norris and her students.

Kanawa trees have two choices about where they will live:  1. Where conditions are suitable for them to survive and grow and 2. where the seed, from which they grew, found suitable conditions and circumstances for germination and growth.

All land is not the same even on a small island like Niku.  A small change in elevation of one spot compared to another can make a difference in what will grow there.  If you study some open woodlands and meadows near where you live, that have some variation of elevation you will probably find that different plants and tree grow in different places.

Another important factor is the soil in a given place.  If you dig a little and look at the soil on a piece of ground and then dig and look at the soil in a low area of the same field you will find that the soil is darker (maybe even quite black and mucky) and has a different texture than the spot on the higher location.  This undoubtedly also occurs on Niku Island.

The surface soil on Niku is very course, broken coral rock that formed way back in the past when it was under the ocean surface.  (The ring of land that is Niku (called an atoll) is actually the crater top of a volcano that rose up from the bottom of the ocean in the long-ago-past that became coral encrusted when the ocean water was shallow above it. This surface soil is not a good place for very many kinds of seeds to sprout so it is a very lucky seed that finds a spot where it can come to life and grow.

The sub-soil, that lies below the surface soil, may be quite different on Kanawa point than most other places on the island.  This could limit the area of the island where conditions are satisfactory for Kanawa trees to put their roots down so they can grow and thus be the only place they are found.

Back in 1945 I was stationed on Atafu Island, a similar atoll, which is about 300 miles south of Niku.  The land surface was quite similar but apparently had a little more elevation above sea level and better subsoil because we had quite a variation of trees and bushes.  The Polynesian people there were actually able to cultivate some food crops (none you would recognize).  We also had Kanawa trees and I have two hand carved wood boxes made of Kanawa I brought back from there.

If Ms Norris  will drop me a note and promise send it back, I'll send one of my boxes for you to see.

God's creation is fascinating and I have enjoyed studying plants and their environment, their blessings and problems and am constantly enthralled but the beauty, the diversity and the completeness.  Every living thing has its place and what it needs to live and keep the cycles of life ever moving onward.

Best wish from  T. E. "Ted" Whitmore, Horticulturist, P O Box 4115, Dowling
Park, FL 32064
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:02:03 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Kanawa Coffin Chronology

Russ Mathews writes:

> Whether or not that site is "Kanawa
> Point" is an educated guess on Tom's part, but certainly one worth checking
> out. 

Actually, it was an educated guess on Ric's part, based on (a) the fact that it's the only place the Kiwi map shows Kanawas in substantial numbers and (b) it could be taken to be at the SE end of the island if (1) Gallagher were thinking of the "island" as the area between the two channels or (2) Gallagher [new to the island at the time] was confused by the way the lagoon shore angles to the east, hiding the long stretch of lagoon that runs down to Ameriki.

Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:02:43 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Dick's daily routine

So it wasn't exactly "South Pacific," huh?

Thanks much, Dick -- that kind of detailed, first-hand information is invaluable.

Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:03:30 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Kanawa everywhere

Tom King wrote:

>"One day, while returning by canoe we turned in to look over a projecting
>point of land which faced our house across the lagoon.  Some coconut palms
>grew near the lagoon, and tall, flame-colored kanawa (cordia subcordata)
>behind them, yielding excellent well-grained timber for building or furniture"
>
>Which demonstrates the utility of constantly re-reading the literature for
>things you missed before.  Kanawa Point doesn't face the village by any
>stretch I can give my imagination; the Taraia peninsula does.  So, clearly,
>Kanawa was not found ONLY on Kanawa Point.

So, The presence of a kanawa tree near the bone site doesn't tell us much of anything about the location of the site.  Kanawa Point remains a good candidate, but it is only one of other possible sites that may seem consistant with other things Gallagher said about the location.  Maybe the team in England will bring back some new information to help pin down the location!
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:06:43 EST
From:         John Clauss
Subject:      Re: Ultralights

The MXL  will do the job that we have in mind, is safe and predictable  It is only one tool among the many that we will take along on the next expedition and it doesn't make sense to change vehicles halfway through the program.  A lot of energy and time has been spent on this plane and I can't see a reason to go through it all again on a different one, let alone the expense.

LTM
John  #142
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:10:41 EST
From:         Mike Rejsa
Subject:      Re: Kanawa trees

Do we know that kanawa trees grew on Kanawa point? It was just occurring to me that names come from a lot of different places, and kanawa point doesn't necessarily mean kanawa trees grew there.

For example, the point could have been shaped like a kanawa leaf. Or it was the place they found a kanawa log someone else stole and hid there. Or it was where Fred Kanawa (named after he hit his head on a kanawa tree, poor bloke was never the same) used to eat his lunch every day. Or where someone saw a spirit that usually lives in a kanawa tree.

To put it another way, if we were searching the Midway Islands for something "lost in the sand", would we only look on Sand island or would we consider that the other islands have sand too.

A point near where I live has been named "Starvation point", "Orono point", and "Brackett's point" in the couple hundred years whites have been around.

Just random thoughts. No help til we get there and look...
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:17:20 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      More on Kanawa wood

For Tom King; Russ Mathews, and Vern Klein

Thanks for your input regarding the Kanawa wood "box."

One more nit to pick  -- in the future shouldn't refer to Gallagher's "box" as a coffin?  When I first starting reading this and we called it a "box," I'm thinking cigar box, cracker box, small packing box etc..  By clearly labeling it a coffin -- which it was, according to the messages -- we give the readers a better appreciation for both the size and intended use of the "box," helping all of to a better understanding of the problem.

The other point -- rather obliquely offered in my earlier message -- was that Kanawa didn't grow ONLY at Kanawa Point, which you all seems to pick up on.

Thanks for your responses -- and patience.

LTM/SMP
Dennis McGee #0149
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:18:33 EST
From:         Fred Madio
Subject:      Re: Cordia subcordata

Tom King, et al:

How do (or did Gallagher and company) you convert logs from a Kanawa tree into lumber for a box?  Any evidence  on Niku of a saw mill or something similar that would serve the same function?

Regards/

Uncle Traveling Fred
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:59:31 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Congrats

Very nice piece of research, gentlemen

Congratulations.
Marty 724C

****************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks Marty.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:06:07 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Kanawa trees

Perfectly fine random thoughts, Mike -- cautions that we always have to try to keep in mind.  However, according to Ric (who's seen them; I haven't), the New Zealand survey party's maps actually shows Kanawas on Kanawa Point.  Too bad about Fred, though.

LTM
Tom King

*************************************************************

From Ric

Yup, that's right.  The map has a notation on Kanawa Point that reads "Kanawa trees, valuable hardwood."  But from Tom's gleaning of the reference to Kanawas visible on what would seem to be the Taria peninsula, it does appear that there were kanawa trees elsewhere on the island.

Incidently, at the Royal Botanical Gardens at Kew in England I was able to confirm that Cordia subcordata can grow to 15 meters in height.  Couldn't find a photo though.  Darn.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:16:33 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Little boxes

I don't want to pick semantic nits, but I think we might tend to mislead ourselves if we started referring to the bone-box as a "coffin" (though admittedly, Gallagher does).  While a box could certainly be pretty small, a coffin is generally pretty big, and of a pretty definitive shape.  There's no reason I can think of to assume that the Kanawa wood box was any bigger than it needed to be to hold the few bones they'd found, wrapped up in something for protection (cloth, I'd guess, in the absence of newspaper or Styrofoam peanuts [or ping pong balls]), and no particular reason to think it'd be coffin-shaped.  You'd need a box maybe 18 inches long to accommodate the long bones, maybe about the same width or a little narrower to handle them plus the cranium, and maybe a foot high to accommodate the latter.  Maybe bigger if you were really packing them well.  Apparently the shoe parts and the cork-on-chains travelled with the bones, but we don't know (unless the England Expeditionaries have found out) whether they, the bones, and the sextant box all travelled in the same container or in separate boxes.  If everything went in one box, then we probably are talking about something approaching standard coffin size, but I still think we need to keep our minds, and eyes, open.

Tom King

**************************************************************

From Ric

It's quite clear from the files that the shipment from Gardner was comprised of  two separate containers:

- the "coffin" which held the bones (there is no mention of packing material but there is no mention of an absence of packing material either).

- the sextant box, which held all of the artifacts (the shoe parts and the corks with brass chains).  I don't think that the bottle ever made it to Suva.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:26:43 EST
From:         Tom Van Hare
Subject:      Re: Ultralights

John Clauss wrote:

> The MXL  will do the job that we have in mind, is safe and predictable  It
> is only one tool among the many that we will take along on the next
> expedition and it doesn't make sense to change vehicles halfway through the
> program.  A lot of energy and time has been spent on this plane and I can't
> see a reason to go through it all again on a different one, let alone the
> expense.

As the person who originally questioned the ultralight, I still don't agree. I believe it is worthwhile approaching this question on a requirements basis and discussing it openly.

Essentially, what I am saying is that the expense of the voyage is such that the tools to accomplish the mission should be measured against the mission itself and its operational requirements rather than what is available and on hand.

If an open assessment of conditions, mission, environment, etc., yields the answer that your ultralight is the right plane, then I'll be the first to salute and say have at it.

Our organization may be willing to be a player in this financially from the aircraft side, so the argument about added expense is limited to such issues of shipping costs (higher with the fixed wing aircraft), durability, operational capabilities, etc. Ultimately, does the fixed wing ultralight provide that much more (or any) capability over an air trike (or gyrocopter) to justify the added shipping cost and risk (damage during transit)?

Bottom line, I am having trouble with this discussion because I do not have an understanding of the operational environment and requirement. Specifically:

1. Wind conditions, gusts, prevailing direction vs. map
2. Beach (will low pressure, tundra tires work on the beach?)
3. Flight mission (what is the goal of the flight program? why fly?)

To consider this, shouldn't we address the requirements against the capabilities of ultralight vs. air trike vs. gyrocopter: speeds, wts., crew, design limits?

Thomas Van Hare
***************************************************************

From Ric

It might not be clear that the MXL was specifically selected for this job after a careful assessment of our needs.  It was not a case of making do with something that was already available.

While we appreciate any offer of financial help (Lord knows we need all we can get), it is not the purpose of this forum to spec out the expedition or second-guess the team leaders.  Let's talk about the evidence.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:44:13 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: England Preliminary Report

I see nothing in Ric's Preliminary Report (portions quoted below) to rule out the possibility that the sextant box is Fred Noonan's sextant box.  I believe any "respectable" box of this sort would have dovetailed corners, regardless of its country of origin.  In any case, Noonan might have had an old marine sextant from anywhere.  And I persist in the belief that those numbers are PAA numbers. I'll have more to say on that later.

If the castaway was, in fact, a Polynesian, then the question simply becomes: Where did he pick up Fred Noonan's sextant box?  In that case, the Gallagher's bone site is of only secondary interest.  It's not necessarily the place to look for other Earhart/Noonan artifacts.  It had been about three years since Amelia and Fred came up missing.  How long may the castaway have been carrying Fred's sextant box around with him before he perished there on Niku?  May he have even brought it with him when he arrived on Niku?

And there are the shoe parts... Male and female!  Very interesting indeed! Gallagher also found both male and female shoe parts, as did TIGHAR, in 1991! These items seem to further support the idea that Niku is, indeed, the place where it all happened.
**************************************************************

From Ric

Polynesian?  Nobody said the bones were Polynesian except that screwball Isaac.  Hoodless says they're European or possibly mixed-race.  MacPherson agrees.  Our eminent modern forensic anthropologists say they're most likely female, white and of Nordic extraction.

A woman's shoe and man's shoe at the site rather strongly suggests that a man and a woman were there.  If the sextant was indeed Fred Noonan's I think that it is most likely that the guy who had it was Fred Noonan.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:47:05 EST
From:         Barb Norris
Subject:      The Box

Dear Uncle Ted,

Your kind and generous offer as well as your poetic thoughts are most heartily appreciated. (I believe Tom has forwarded the necessary info to you for sending the box.) The "Airhearts" are on Thanksgiving break as of today, but I will share your message and your selfless gesture with them when they return next week. They are bound to be thrilled with the news of the impending arrival of "The Box." I only wish everyone could have the pleasure of knowing such incredible children. If you're ever up this way, let us know. The kids would be happy to share the Amelia stuff they've been working on for the past 10 months. They love visitors. Just ask Ric.

With much appreciation,
Barb Norris
**************************************************************

From Ric

Oh yeah.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:03:25 EST
From:         Dennis McGee
Subject:      England trip

Congratulations on your successful dig at Hanslope Park. Archeologists just want to have fun, eh?

In true TIGHAR fashion you have served up some tasty nuggets that are very promising, I just hope you're prepared to field all of the questions we TIGHAR fans have.

Just a couple of observations that lend evidence to your theory that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, . . etc.  Gallagher, on the other hand, came to a different conclusion.

In paragraph #6 of your report, Gallagher surmised that the skeleton "was that of some unfortunate native castaway" who had managed to save "the sextant box and other curious articles found nearby."  If in fact this was a "unfortunate native castaway" didn't it seem strange to Gallagher that this "native" would have a sextant box?  How many islanders had sextant boxes in the 1930s?  I would be hard pressed to believe this item was a normal accouterment on the South Pacific islands in 1937.

Gallagher continues, speculating that the "native" died of thirst even though there was a coconut grove less then 2 miles away, albeit just beyond an impenetrable belt of bushes.  Would not a "native" immediately set out for the coconut grove had he been stranded on an island?  My suspicions are that a "native's" chance of survival would be fairly high on Niku, especially since it is his home turf!

All of this raises a couple of points.  What does Gallagher means by "native"?  Is it a local islander-- not necessarily from Niku -- or just a colonial that's been around too long?  I take "native" to mean a local islander.  If that is also Gallagher's definition, then he sure dropped the ball by not questioning a native having a sextant box and dying of thirst in his own back yard.  Native, indeed!

I guess this one incident goes to show how firmly denial can mislead us.  Wittingly or not, Gallagher apparently played right into the hand's of the -- oh-oh, here's that word -- conspirators who wanted to keep this stuff under wraps for whatever reason.

I know it is unfair to second-guess Gallagher, et. al. 60-plus years later, but, oh boy! it is such great fun!

Mom always did love you best.  Good job!!

LTM
Dennis McGee #0149
***************************************************************

From Ric

You're right Dennis.  Gallagher's comments don't make a lot of sense until you understand the political situation he found himself in when he wrote them down.  He is the one who got everyone all excited about Amelia Earhart, and now here he is at headquarters back in Suva and the bones have turned out to be those of a man and all of his superiors seem to agree that whoever this is, it is not Amelia Earhart.  Gallagher is, by far, the junior man in this whole affair.  He is like a lieutenant in a room full of colonels and the general. He is a bit embarrassed about the whole affair and eager to go on record as agreeing with the party line.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:11:37 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Greetings

Warmest wishes for a blessed Thanksgiving to all here.

The Robisons
Tom (#2179), Carol, Mandy and Missy.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:23:24 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Re: Ultralights

I have agreed all along that the expedition team will probably go with what they have, however, the MXL  hasn't as yet been used, and I believe you mentioned the problems you had with shipping. Why not re-think the requirements of the mission? Wouldn't a simple vehicle such as a Trike or a powered Para-sail (given the ease with which either could be shipped) be worth considering? All we really need to do is to get one person in the air about 100 feet over a certain part of the lagoon on Niku to see if there is a glint of shiny aluminum, right? I'm just throwing this out for input from the Forum.
Marty724C
**************************************************************

From Ric

No, that's not the mission.  There are multiple missions for the ultralight - still and video photography, command and control of ground teams, ground team navigation assistance, aerial searching, to name a few.  We need to put two people in the air safely in an environment where the wind can be strong and gusty.  Acceptable landing areas on land are few and far between, while the lagoon is always right there, so we need water-alighting capability.  I've seen plenty of gyrocopters and para-planes, and they don't belong at Niku.

We didn't get a chance to fly last time out because the weather was so bad. Short of a Hughes 500 (which wouldn't fit on the boat), there's nothing that we could have flown on that trip.

Trust us on this one guys.  We've done our homework.  We have the right bird for the job.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:47:53 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Kanawa everywhere

Vern writes:

> So, The presence of a kanawa tree near the bone site doesn't tell us much of
> anything about the location of the site.  Kanawa Point remains a good
> candidate, but it is only one of other possible sites that may seem
> consistant with other things Gallagher said about the location.  Maybe the
> team in England will bring back some new information to help pin down the
> location!

Well, Kanawa still isn't EVERYWHERE.  The two places we thus far have record of it growing are both peninsulas sticking out into the lagoon, so there may be something about that particular sort of microenvironment that favors it. Put the Kanawa evidence together with the other locational clues -- "southeast shore," the planting schedule, the airphotos, the "high springs," and now the allusion to the nearby but inaccessible coconut grove, and the possibilities get narrowed down a good deal.  And who knows what further wonders will emerge from the bowels of the WPHC?

LTM
Tom King
**************************************************************

From Ric

Well, the bowels of the WPHC sure got loose and we do have another hint in Gallagher's comment that there was a grove of coconuts "less than two miles away."  He has to be talking about Arundel's old plantings (they're the only cocos on the island at that time) and the groves closest to the southern part of the island are the ones that stood on the edge of the mud flat we call Crab City.

Kanawa Point is only about three quarters of a mile from that point.  The Aukaraime site (where we found our shoe parts) is - well - a little less than two miles from where the closest grove of cocos once stood.  There is also the point that that Gallagher seems to have parts of a woman's shoe and parts of a man's shoe.  We found parts of a woman's shoe and the heel from a different pair which could have been a man's.  It's starting to sound like we (Gallagher and TIGHAR) each found one shoe from the two pair.  If that is the case, then the Aukaraime site is not terribly far from the bone site and the Kanawa Point hypothesis is wrong.  The best indication of that is the fact that there is a new issue of TIGHAR Tracks now at the printers with a big article about Kanawa Point which I wrote before I went to England.  (I hate it when that happens.)

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:51:44 EST
From:         Dick Evans
Subject:      Fuel Drums

Sorry this is so late but for some reason I have been busy with other things, like an ear operation etc.

Fuel drums? Did somebody ever take any to Niku? Don't know if it has anything to do with the project but, of course, we had many fuel drums delivered. As I recall we got them twice, maybe 30 or 50 each time. They were regular 55 gallon drums full of diesel fuel to run the generators. I remember them because it was so much fun to unload them.

Dick Evans
***************************************************************

From Ric

Well, the villagers certainly had empty 55 gallon drums galore - probably the ones you guys had emptied.  The fuel drums we were specifically talking about were labeled JP-4 and once held jet fuel for the USAF helicopters which visited there in the 1970s.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:18:46 EST
From:         Bruce Yoho
Subject:      Re: fuel drums

Were these fuel drums tighar saw with JP-4 on them Blue with Red tops? Typical Chevron colors.

LTM
Bruce

**************************************************************

From Ric

Whew, geez, yeah, I think they were blue but I'm not sure about the red tops. as I recall, the tops (and much of the sides) were pretty rusty.  I wonder if we took pictures of them.  I don't think our official photographer was down there.  John? Tom?  Any recollections?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:32:03 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Ultralights

Ric writes:

> We didn't get a chance to fly last time out because the weather was so bad.
> Short of a Hughes 500 (which wouldn't fit on the boat), there's nothing that
> we could have flown on that trip.

Welll......  Somebody not long ago on the Forum suggested looking into a robotic helicopter that he'd seen demonstrated.  I know we can't afford it, but it did occur to me that we could have launched something like that from the heaving deck of the Nai'a and gotten some photo-recon done.  But of course, we didn't have it at the time, and the ultra-lite can do a lot more for us if we can just get it into the air.

LTM
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:34:12 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Kanawa everywhere

Hey, hypotheses are to test and disprove.

LTM
Tom King
****************************************************************

From Ric

Yeah, we're gettin' real good at that.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:52:23 EST
From:         Tom Ruprecht
Subject:      Kanawa

Sometimes the dumbest question is the one not yet asked, so here goes:

Ric, you indicated that you had not yet seen a photo of a kanawa.  I would assume that one of you had looked it up on a Net search engine already, but I did it anyway.

The first hit <http://www.hawaii-nation.org/nation/canoe/kou.html>, gave a couple of bits of info that I hadn't seen on  the Forum:

"Because of the beauty of its grain and the ease with which it can be cut and carved, true kou is one of the best timber trees in Hawai'i. Cordia subcordata is the botanical name of this plant. Kou is widespread throughout Polynesia and the entire Pacific region, tropical Asia and East Africa, and was probably introduced by seed to Hawai'i in the canoes of the earliest settlers as a useful plant they wished to cultivate."

"a small to medium-sized erect evergreen tree that grows to a 30-40 foot height at maturity. This plant grows easily and quickly from seed, preferring sunny warm coastal lowlands on the islands' leeward areas. It was cultivated near settlements, and is only occasionally found in the wild forests. Because of its thick wide crown of leaves, kou was a favorite shade tree near home sites."

If the same species, maybe an ideal place to set up camp, but a dense canopy plus the sound of surf would make someone unaware of a search aircraft until too late?

"Within the trunk can be found a heartwood with beautiful colored markings that are reddish dark brown, sometimes with a hint of purple. The sapwood is straw color, with a tint of pink. In the medium soft and durable wood are grain markings, some straight and some of which are wavy with dark and light lines and bands of yellow. The texture is medium fine, and the density is considered medium. The wood is long-lasting, and has little shrinkage."

"Because of the good workability of kou, it is fashioned into 'umeke la'au, containers of wood, crafted with great skill, as well as being aesthetically pleasing. "

Sounds really pretty, a nice material to make the bone box from. Especially if Galleghar was sucking up to his superiors.  He also presumably had at least one Gilbertese craftsman-wannabe among his settlers.

Many sites have photos of flowers and leaves, but not of the whole tree. I do not assume that all these references speak of exactly the same subspecies, but the descriptions are similar, and the species seems to range all the way from the eastern coast of Africa to Poynesia.  It seems to be a smallish tree in these descriptions,

 "a small tree which grows well in sunny, dry areas. It quickly grows into a straight trunked, rounded headed tree."

One academic description says it is only around three meters tall. Another:

"Broad tree with a spreading crown, 8 m tall; bark light brown, smooth; corolla bright orange; fruits green; old, brown, dry fruits persisting on the tree and littering the ground."

It appears that the academics have reason to believe that the tree was so valued by the native peoples that it was brought to islands as they were settled, in Niku's case, prehistory.  It must have had a thick trunk, because it was valued also as an ideal canoe material.

Are Kanawa and Taraia Points "sunny, dry areas?"  Is "kou" in Hawaii the same as "kanawa" in '40s Gilbertese, or are they different subspecies?  Is this the best type of vegetation on Niku to get out of a hot sun under? Would two aviator-castaways find the ground under these trees less tangled and better shaded than other spots on the island?

Does anybody care and/or does this help in any way?

Rupe

***************************************************************

From Ric

Good information Rupe!  No, I had not done a web search.

The leeward side of Niku is the south side where Kanawa Point and Aukaraime are.  Sounds like kanawa doesn't like direct exposure to the salty winds of the windward side of the islands.  The lagoon side of Taraia might be okay too.

Cordia subcordata is kanawa, so I think we're talking about the same sub-species. the description of the wood sounds exactly like the hand-crafted boxes and model canoes brought back as souvenirs by the Coasties.  The boxes and canoe that PBY pilot John Mims brought home from Gardner have inlaid aluminum that the locals told him was "from the crashed plane" that was on the island when the first settlers arrived.  John also saw an airplane control cable being used as a heavy-duty fishing line leader.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:36:07 EST
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Re: England trip

Could it be that Gallagher's use of the term "native," is in the same syntax as Jesse Marcel's term  "weather balloon" as public documents go?

A Happy Thanksgiving Day To All,
Gene Dangelo 2211  :)

***************************************************************

From Ric

I think that it is very safe to say that whenever Gallagher or any other British official uses the term "native" he means a member of the indigenous population.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:44:54 EST
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Re: Ultralights

In a message dated 11/26/98 Tom King wrote:

> Somebody not long ago on the Forum suggested looking into a robotic
> helicopter that he'd seen demonstrated. 

  They use these in movie-making for some very dramatic and tricky shots.  The major limitation for our needs is the R/C range.  Just remember the daily challenge of radio communications on Niku I.

  I can still recall Ric standing up to his knees in water at the very edge of the reef while Bart Whitehouse advised him to "...move away from the vegetation."   The robot chopper probably wouldn't have such a good sense of humor about the whole thing and we'd soon have a new search on our hands.

  LTM
  Russ
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:47:35 EST
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Re: fuel drums

Ric writes:

> I don't think our official photographer was down there.  John? Tom?  Any
>recollections? 

  Have you checked the videotape?  I was there on an extended scouting trip with you guys and shot a lot of stuff (the fish pond, nickel coke bottles, assorted Coast Guard debris) - and possibly the fuel drums.

  I definitely remember seeing them.  As I recall, they were gray or light in color (maybe faded by the sun).  "JP-4" was stenciled across the top in large black letters.  The drums were rusted, but still fairly complete - especially compared to the examples at John Manybarrels house.

  LTM
  Russ

**************************************************************

From Ric

Good thought.  I'll review the tape.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:57:59 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Kanawa

Boy, do I feel dumb!  Thanks, Rupe.  Good stuff.

Tom King

*************************************************************

From Ric

YOU feel dumb?  I paid five quid admission at Kew Gardens just to find out how
tall the thing gets.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:08:37 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: fuel drums

I don't have any recollection of fuel drum colors, but I'll check my notes.  I
know I don't have any photos.

TK
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:44:08 EST
From:         Mike R
Subject:      Kanawa

 "Because of the beauty of its grain and the ease with which it can be cut and
>  carved, true kou is one of the best timber trees in Hawai`i. Cordia
> subcordata is the botanical name of this plant. Kou is widespread
> throughout Polynesia and the entire Pacific region, tropical Asia and East
> Africa, and was probably introduced by seed to Hawai`i in the canoes of the
> earliest settlers as a useful plant they wished to cultivate."

>   It appears that the academics have reason to believe that the tree was so
> valued by the native peoples that it was brought to islands as they were
> settled, in Niku's case, prehistory.

Could this be the same as "koa"? Also an important Hawaiian wood - see
     http://www.planet-hawaii.com/~hardwoods/index.html   for some
pictures of finished grain.

****************************************************************

From Ric

Hard to say for sure, but it doesn't look much like the boxes John Mims has.
The wood is darker.  I'll get a photo of one of his boxes mounted on the
website but it will be sometime next week.  I'll let you know.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:52:58 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Ultralights

Unfortunately I didn't keep the post where somebody advised looking into a new
generation robo-chopper he'd seen demonstrated somewhere not far from
Wilmington.  I know, it's probably unrealistic, but it just sounded
interesting.  By the way, I see in "Discover" magazine that "the aerosonde, a
miniature robotic airplane for environmental monitoring, just made history as
the first unmanned craft to cross the Atlantic."  Info at
www.bom.gov.au/bmrc/mesa/New/aerohome.htm.  If we can't get our airphotos any
other way.....

Love to Hover
Tom King

***************************************************************

From Ric

That posting was put up by Bill Moffett.  I'm still very leery of relying on
anything out there that is hi-tech. As I'm sure you recall, the environment on
Niku is death on any technology much more complicated than a machete.  The
only machine I can imagine that might be more delicate and tempermental than a
helicopter would be a robot helicopter.  I'm very inclined to stick with a
good old-fashioned aeroplane with wings and chairs and everything.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:43:02 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Ultralights

Ric writes -

<< I'm very inclined to stick with a good old-fashioned aeroplane with wings
and chairs and everything. >>

I guess my problem is that once you get beyond feet and hands and trowels,
EVERYTHING seems high-tech to me.

LTM
Tom King
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:49:25 EST
From:         Gary Moline
Subject:      Math problems

Thanks from all of us on the forum for the "Update From England"! It was
great and we will all be looking forward to hearing more about the minute
details as you are ready to pass them along. There was one glaringly
unbelievable detail that you mentioned in the update, and that was the part
about retiring to the local pub after a hard day of research and having A pint
of the local brew whilst reviewing the days findings! Don't forget that we all
know about your problems with simple math as you were somewhat confused about
how many pairs of shoes on Niku equaled how many total shoes! Other than that,
it sounds like you accomplished a lot and deserve a great deal of thanks from
all of us!! We can't wait to hear more about it. Thanks again!       Gary
Moline   Orlando, Florida

*************************************************************

From Ric

After one pint of "real ale" you really don't remember anything else.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:51:55 EST
From:         John Clauss
Subject:      Ultralights

I would be happy to correspond directly with anyone needing further info on
our ultralight program.

Just didn't think that it was all that relevant to the research form.

We investigated the ultralight program pretty thoroughly, did make some
mistakes, but now think we have a decent handle on it.

Shipping a trike or a powered parachute wouldn't be all that much better.
Any of them must be completely disassembled and packaged properly.  Then
you have the worry that some of the components might not make it.  This
applies to all the rest of our gear also.

The route for our gear, once it is arrives in La is:

   La to Fiji, air freight
   Nadi, Fiji via truck (across the island) to Suva
   Offload at the docks onto Nai'a
   Fiji to Niku aboard Nai'a
   Transport gear from the ship to the island by hand in small boats.
   Reverse the whole procedure for the return trip.

LTM
John #142
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:53:32 EST
From:         John Clauss
Subject:      Fuel Drums

We also found a rather large fuel drum dump SE of the station just inland
from the ocean side beach in the area (we think) you used to offload gear
and supplies from the ships.  They were mostly piles of rust around the
heavier end rings, much older than the JP-4 barrels that Ric is referring
to.

I remember blue drums but not any red coloring.  I'll check and see if I
have pictures.

LTM
John 142
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:24:44 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Corks

Ric wrote:

>Polynesian?  Nobody said the bones were Polynesian except that screwball
>Isaac.  Hoodless says they're European or possibly mixed-race.  Macpherson
>agrees.  Our eminent modern forensic anthropologists say they're most likely
>female, white and of Nordic extraction.
>
>A woman's shoe and man's shoe at the site rather strongly suggests that a man
>and a woman were there.  If the sextant was indeed Fred Noonan's I think that
>it is most likley that the guy who had it was Fred Noonan.
              *****************************************
I'm very much inclined to agree.  But we're dealing with probabilities based
on measurements made on bones that were in pretty bad condition.  How good
are the measurements?   We should not get so locked-in on a particular
scenario that we might not notice a red flag saying:  Hey, it ain't the way
you think it is!  Better think it out again!

Those corks with little brass chains...  I wonder if those went with
benedictine bottles?  Did they come with the cork chained to the bottle?  In
the 30s... Now?

Incidently, if fred did have a couple of bottles of benedictine with him,
that by no means makes him a drunk!  A real boozer doesn't usually go for
the fancy kinds of booze.  They tend to go for more basic stuff.

***************************************************************

From Ric

Yeah, no mention of empty Ripple bottles.

Kenton Spading and I fought over those corks and chains until about midnight
one night.  The actual sentence (which is the sole reference we have) goes
like this:

"Those corks on brass chains would appear to have belonged to a small cask."

No mention of size except the speculation that they may have come from a small
cask, and no specific number except that there was apparently more than one.

Kenton and I also wondered if Benedictine bottles once featured corks with
brass chains and made the mistake of conducting an informal survey at the bar
in The Globe pub.  The result was a great long description of various bottle
closure technology as exhibited in private collections of old booze bottles
held by sundry denizens of that worthy establishment ("Well I have this one
old jug what has this spider-like wire arrangement as fits over the cork..."
etc., etc.)  Nobody had seen a cork affixed to a bottle with a brass chain,
but nobody had an old Benedictine bottle either.  It seems like this might be
an avenue of research worth pursuing in a less alcohol-saturated environment.

I can think of another possibility checking out.  A photograph taken on May
20, 1937 at Burbank Airport shows AE and Fred loading the airplane for the
second world flight attempt.  On the ground in front of the cabin door are
various suitcases, briefcases, chart cases (no, no sextant boxes), and what
appear to be four Thermos bottles.  If memory serves me, my recollection is
that Thermos bottles in my 1950s childhood had cork stoppers.  It doesn't seem
unreasonalble that a Thermos bottle, especially one to be used in an airplane,
might have the cork secured with a little chain.  "Thermos" is a brand name
and is probably now owned by Microsoft or somebody, but they might just have a
collection of old products which could be matched to the photo.  Like the
famous canned bananas (hey, it was worth a shot) this may be an opportunity to
connect a specific artifact found on Niku with a specific object known to have
been on the airplane.  Not exactly an engine with a serial number, but we'll
take what we can get.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:17:01 EST
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Re: Helicopter

As long as we are talking about helicopters I think it is worth while
mentioning the new Voyager-500 by Revolution Helicopter Corp.  It is an
experimental two place with an empty weight of 610 lbs and a useful load of
560 lb.  It could be boxed and shipped in advance to fiji then probably
assembled on board the boat enroute to the island.  If there is the
capability of building a small temporary landing platform on the boat it
could be used to transport supplies and equipment from ship to shore as
well as for aerial photography.  The cost is about $50,000 but there should
be a high probability of finding an owner-pilot who, if given the chance to
be the pilot on the mission, could provide the needed aircraft at no cost
to TIGHAR.

Just another possibility for consideration.  Try looking at the web site,

www.revolutionhelicopter.com.

Dick Pingrey 908C
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:20:40 EST
From:         Bob
Subject:      Re: Thermos Bottles

During my misguided youth in the 1940s, in my grade school years, I took a
Thermos bottle to school everyday.  You are correct in stating that they used
a cork stopper.  None of the bottles I used had chains, or anything else,
attached to the stopper.  Of course, these were just the el cheapo school kids
Thermos models.

LTM

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:03:27 EST
From:         Dave
Subject:      Re: Corks

It would much more plausible, and scientifically valid,  if quotes and
opinions were to be posted with names and E-Mail addresses. Your
relating to an opinion by "forensic scientists" does not include the
names of those scientists, nor does it include an address to contact
them to determine the means by which they conclude their findings. The
ability and truth of science is to VERIFY findings, and to openly invite
dissenting opinions from other qualified individuals. This is why
credibility is so lacking in your presentation. The scant evidence
presented as significant in the efforts to locate AE would, in my
opinion, be the absolute minimum, and reasonably explainable artifacts
to establish research. It is surprising that, given the type of material
recovered, a serial number, unique brand name, DNA, teeth, or many other
means of identifying a unique characteristic belonging to AE are not
present.

**************************************************************

From Ric

You must be confusing us with somebody else.  We ALWAYS credit the scientists,
authorities, experts and volunteer researchers who contribute to our work. The
complete text of the paper entitled "Amelia Earhart's Bones and Shoes?"
authored by forensic anthropologists Dr. Karen Ramey Burns and Dr. Richard L.
Jantz along with TIGHAR's Senior Archaeologist Dr. Tom King (and me) is posted
on our website. I think you'll find that the paper explains the methodology in detail.

As for welcoming dissenting opinions - whether from qualified individuals or
not - this posting speaks for itself.

You say-

<<The scant evidence presented as significant in the efforts to locate AE
would, in my opinion, be the absolute minimum, and reasonably explainable artifacts
to establish research. It is surprising that, given the type of material
recovered, a serial number, unique brand name, DNA, teeth, or many other
means of identifying a unique characteristic belonging to AE are not
present. >>

I must confess that I'm having an awful time making sense out of those two
sentences.  I take it that you want more evidence than we have right now.
That's okay.  So do I.  But you seem to want it to be easy, and it isn't.  I
guess you'll just have to be patient while the rest of us try to puzzle this
out.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:06:44 EST
From:         George Mershon
Subject:      Tom King

While Bill Moffet may have referred a small robo-chopper to Ric, it was also I
who very recently mentioned a near-Wilmington chopper. If you're interested in a
short tape or other info, you may also call me.

George Mershon

**************************************************************

From Ric

Sorry.  Coulda sworn it was Bill.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:10:09 EST
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      Robo-chopper

Much as I like vicarious vertigo, I must disclaim.  Believe the robo-chopper
posting was put up as "searching Niku" on 11/6 by George Mershon #2181.
This refers to your reply to Tom King's of 6:54 PM, 11/27.

LTM

Bill Moffet  #2156

**************************************************************

From ric

Gotta learn to do my research before shootin' off my mouth.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:49:03 EST
From:         Bill Moffet
Subject:      England trip

Terrific job you guys did in England.  Congratulations!  Q.: Was "Dr. Duncan
Campbell McEwan MacPherson" the same Jock MacPherson who accompanied Irish
back to Gardner/Niku?  Did you learn why he made that trip?  Wonder if he
did any anthropological searching and did he leave any notes or report on
his visit?  Also, my old brain is getting addled trying to think why the
present Med School/Hospital chief in Suva evades questions about the
whereabouts of the bones.  I note Fiji gained independence from the Brits
10/10/1970 and can't figure why 1941 WPHC orders of "strictly secret" and
"retain the bones until further notice" would still carry weight today.
Could Hoodless have carried them off into his sunset?  Doubtful, I think, in
view of his analysis of them.  Maybe he liked the box!  Just reviewed your
exchange, "U.S. claims to islands" 11/4/98 9:42 AM with Randy Jacobson &
Gene Bialek.  Wonder if the animosity between us and the Brits in 1935-38 is
still with us in that part of the world?  Also are the govts of Kiribati and
Fiji friendly?

I'll stay tuned.
LTM
Bill Moffet #2156

***************************************************************

From Ric

Excellent questions Bill.  I'll try to answer them.

<<Was "Dr. Duncan Campbell McEwan MacPherson" the same Jock MacPherson who
accompanied Irish back to Gardner/Niku? >>

Yes.

<<Did you learn why he made that trip?>>

No, but the answer may be buried in material that we copied but haven't had
time to fully digest.  My suspicion is that, as the Central Medical Authority
for the Western Pacific High Commisssion, he was using the voyage of the
"Viti" as an opportunity to do a general medical inspection of the colony and
recruit new candidates for Native Medical Practioner training.

<<Wonder if he did any anthropological searching and did he leave any notes or
report on his visit? >>

This is something we had speculated about but the files make it rather clear
that nothing of the sort happened.  From the time he arrived at Gardner at
about noon on September 24, 1941 until his departure late on the 28th,
MacPherson was totally absorbed in the illness, death and burial of Gallagher.
This was a major trauma for everyone involved and it shook the Western Pacific
High Commission to its foundations.  They were not in the habit of losing
officers, and Gallagher was widley regarded as the best and the brightest.  He
did NOT die of peretonitis following a burst appendix as has often been
reported.  (Gallagher had already had an appendectomy years before.)  He died
of an upper intestinal blockage due to "kinking of the gut" which was, in
MacPherson's opinion, a direct consequence of poor diet and poorer health
care.  After his return to Fiji, MacPherson wrote a long and detailed account
of the whole tragic affair.  He said that, essentially, Gallagher had died of
malnutrition and he laid his death squarely on the doorstep of the colonial
adminstration.

 <<Also, my old brain is getting addled trying to think why the

present Med School/Hospital chief in Suva evades questions about the

whereabouts of the bones.>>

I'm sure that there's nothing sneaky going on there.  The medical school got
rid of their bone collection in 1991.  That's always a problem for medical
schools and no matter how you do it, somebody is likely to be pissed.  He's
just avoiding a ticklish subject.

<<Could Hoodless have carried them off into his sunset?  Doubtful, I think, in

view of his analysis of them.  Maybe he liked the box! >>

We talked to Hoodless's daughter some time ago.  She had never seen any
reference to the bones in her father's papers nor heard him talk about the
matter.  Having gotten some feel for the bureaucracy in Fiji at that time, I
feel quite certain that nobody would do anything with that box of bones
without specific instructions from higher up.

<<Wonder if the animosity between us and the Brits in 1935-38 is

still with us in that part of the world?>>

Not at all.

<<Also are the govts of Kiribati and Fiji friendly?>>
Absolutely, although the U.S. has very little to do with either.  We have a
rather sleepy little embassy in Suva but we have no official presence in
Tarawa, nor does Kiribati have a legation in the U.S. or at the U.N for that
matter.  I once asked the State Department for an introduction to the present
government in Tarawa.  The reply was, "Don't look at us.  You guys have closer
relations with Kiribati than we do."

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:16:02 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Re: Corks

Is it the consensus that the term "cork" was a description
of the actual material, or could it be a generic term for any
kind of bottle stopper? Maybe in the context of 1940s British,
they could have meant a metal screw-on cap similar to a
military canteen.

Marty724C----

*************************************************************
From Ric

Your guess is as good as mine, but the guy says he thinks that the "corks"
might be from a "small cask" so that suggests to me that he is talking about -
well - corks.  Granted, the Brits don't always call things by their right
names ( a flashlight is a "torch") but as far as I know they don't call
canteens "casks", do they?  How 'bout it you TIGHARs across the pond?  We need
some language lessons.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:18:38 EST
From:         Marty Joy
Subject:      Bananas forever

Oh and by the way, I recently learned that there is a
"Banana museum" just down the hill from me in
Auburn, WA. Unless someone has beaten me to it,
I plan to look for the "rowers produce" label there.
I don't buy the BarCode explanation.

Marty724C

****************************************************************

From Ric

Hey! Go for it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:42:06 EST
From:         Deb
Subject:      Re: corks

Could these corks on chains also belong to canteens? I checked a
Civil War re-enactment site that made their own canteens with
corks and chains. The website reference is:
http://fcsutler.com/fctin.html
Also, I dimly remember Thermos bottle stoppers as having a cork 'bottom'
and a plastic or metal top, but no chain. Thermos bottles were in use
by the 1930s. A company called American Thermos made a commemorative
Thermos in 1935. The website reference is:
http://www.buyit.com/browse/singleitem.cfm?itemid=102263

Deb

**************************************************************
From Ric

The inventory of the Electra taken following the Luke Field crash that ended
the first world flight attempt on March 20, 1937 lists 2 canteens "type 4 N"
and 2 canteens "type 6 N", whatever that means.  A photo of the airplane being
loaded prior to the first attmept shows what appears to be about a two-quart
cowboy style canteen (with blanket material on the sides). Looks like a screw-
on cap, but can't be certain. Did civilian canteens in the 1930s still use
corks rather than screw-on caps?  How wierd would it be for the chains from
two canteens to come loose and the canteens themselves disappear leaving only
the corks and chains at the site?  On the other hand, whatever container(s)
the corks stoppered somehow went away.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:48:21 EST
From:         SactoDave
Subject:      Fraud

The second part of my post is the most significant. I am stating that
you are presenting evidence that bears no unique, or verifiable
characteristic to Amelia Earhart. Shoe parts? Bones? Metal boxes?
Anyone can plant evidence like that. Now, if those bones were to include
the jawbone with teeth, or a particular portion of an extremity that may
show evidence of a healed fracture that was suffered by Earhart, THEN
you would have something. Otherwise, it seems to me that someone is
planting just enough "evidence" to convince people that a discovery has
been made, and whet their appetite to fund continued research.

***************************************************************

From Ric

Well, I'm glad you finally got around to saying what you mean.  You're
accusing us of outright fraud, of planting evidence to fool people into
funding more research.  It would be very easy for me to get really angry about
such an accusation after watching my friends and fellow team members literally
risk their lives to find and recover the artifacts you hold in such disdain.
But while telling you what you can do with your accusations might be
emotionally satisfying, it wouldn't really add anything to the discussion and
might sound defensive to some, so I'll honor your allegation with some hard
facts.

The discovery of the artifacts found in 1991 and 1997 by TIGHAR on Nikumaroro
(the shoe parts, the airplane skin, the camp fire, the can label fragment,
etc.) was accomplished in the company of network television camera crews who
went everywhere with us (not to mention the Ziribati Customs officials who
have accompanied every expedition).  There is unedited videotape of artifacts
being uncovered in previously undisturbed ground.  But let's suppose for a
moment that we somehow managed to hoax the media types or, in the true spirit
of Earhart mythology, brought them in on a massive conspiracy aimed at
generating good ratings for their documentaries.  Let's suppose for a moment
that we went down to the local Shoes-R-Us and picked up a 1930s-vintage
blucher oxford with brass eyelets and a replacement heel just like Amelia
wore, and then somehow weathered it sufficiently to break it down to just the
fragmented sole and the heel, and cleverly planted the pieces so that our co-
conspirator NBC News camerman could film us "finding" them.  Let's say that
every single piece of physical evidence found on Nikumaroro was similarly
planted there.

You still have to explain how we managed to fabricate the now-voluminous
official British documents which show that bones and artifacts thought at the
time to be those of Amelia Earhart were found on Nikumaroro.  Because you can,
yourself, go to the Kiribati National Archives in Tarawa and the Foreign and
Commonwealth Office in Hanslope, England and see the original (or so we'd like
you to think) documents, the TIGHAR conspiracy must be presumed to have grown
to encompass not only three major competing television companies (NBC, ABC and
the Discovery Channel) but also the Republic of Kiribati and Her Majesty's
government. Once we had that little consortium put together it was a simple
matter to coerce two leading forensic anthroplogists into claiming that the
bones were probably those of a white female of Earhart's height.

Believe it or not, your allegations are somewhat comforting.  We have said for
a long time that we'll know that we have the naysayers really worried when
they start accusing us of planting stuff.  The next landmark will come when we
recover serial-numbered wreckage and DNA-matched bones and are accused of
finding it all on Saipan and planting it on Niku just to make ourselves look
good and cover-up for the U.S. and Japanese governments.

Love to mother,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:42:03 EST
From:         Gene Bialek
Subject:      Canton Is. takeover

The March 7, 1938 takeover of Canton by Richard Black under orders of
Ernest Gruening, Director of Territories and Island Possessions, Dept of
Interior, was very peaceful (except for one minor incident).  Black and his
landing party were met by the Deputy Administrator of Canton. He reported
his reception as being very cool but ended by having a friendly drink in
the Administrator's tent. The incident occured when the Deputy
Administrator's dog "Blotto", bit one of Black's men; that was the extent
of British resistance.  There was a protest by the British Foreign Office.
After an exchange of notes the two governments agreed to occupy the islands
(Canton and Enderbury) jointly, waiving the matter of actual sovereignty
for fifty years.

Under the terms of the agreement the Dept. of Interior granted a revocable
licence to Pan American Airways and a sea-plane base of that company was
established on Canton.

Gene Bialek
Wash. DC

***************************************************************
From Ric

I love it.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:54:49 EST
From:         Ken
Subject:      Re: Fraud

Does this mean you don't want those Electra parts I have for you?? :>

Seriously, though, I see a bunch of dedicated people working very hard with
very little thanks, and if I could afford to, I'd join TIGHAR and make
some financial contributions to the project myself.

Ken
***************************************************************
From Ric

We still need a really beat-up Pratt & Whitney "Wasp" R1340 S3H1, serial
number 6150 (make it look good).  Stick it in the bushes on the shore of
Nutiran on Nikumaroro with a Lockheed 10 center section and maybe some old
radios.

Get another engine and make a data plate that says 6149.  Tear it up even
worse and bury it in the dump on Canton Island.

Oh, and don't let anybody see you!
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:14:24 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: corks

The fact that, as Ric says, "whatever container(s)
the corks stoppered somehow went away" seems like a clue.  Why would one hold
onto a cork but lose what it corked?  And if the corkee was left on-site, why
didn't Gallagher & Co. find it?  A thermos jug would still be around (I know,
I'm speculating, but...), and surely so would at least the carcass of a
canteen, though probably pretty well reduced to rust.  A wooden cask (more
likely to be a Norwich City artifact than an Electra item, presumably) might
have contained something sufficiently tasty that the crabs would eat it.  Or
what about a skin bag of some kind?  Leads to another thought: apparently
there were no surviving items of clothing on or around the body in 1940,
except the shoe(s).  This could mean that the deceased wasn't wearing much or
anything at the time of death (a reasonable possibility; WE don't were much on
Niku if we can get away with it), and/or it could mean that whatever the
deceased was wearing had had time to decay completely.  We know from
observing, in 1997, the gloves left by Ric on Aukaraime in 1991 that leather
items of clothing don't necessarily disappear completely in six years.  Of
course, what was IN the clothing, or a leather or fabric container, might
enhance its decay rate...  I dont know where, if anyplace, I'm going with
this; just speculating.

LTM
Tom King
***************************************************************

From Ric

This brings up the general issue that there is simply not as much stuff there
as should be there, no matter whose bones they are.  Just taking at face value
the objects which were reported found, we're missing:
- about 90% of the bones of one body
- 100% of the bones of another body
- another man's shoe
- another woman's shoe
- a man's clothing and accessories (belt buckle, watch, rings, pen, etc.)
- a woman's clothing an accessories (belt buckle, watch, rings, jewlry, etc.)
- a sextant
- a container or containers for the stoppers
- some kind of knife to dress out a turtle with (Could you kill and eat a
turtle with your bare hands?  Sounds like we need to do an experiment.)

I have a hard time attributing all the missing stuff to coconut crabs.  I have
a pretty good hunch where the two missing shoes went.  I've got 'em right
here.  I think that it's possible that some souvenirs in addition to the
Benedictine bottle were picked up before Gallagher got involved.  It may also
be that there is still stuff laying around yet to be found.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:34:34 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: Fraud

Hey, take heart, Ric; he hasn't found out yet about the time machine we used
to plant that body on Niku back in '39.

When ABC first interviewed me in preparation for the last trip, they asked me
point-blank whether I thought it possible that you could be planting all the
stuff.  Having thought long and hard about it, I concluded that even then,
before the Tarawa Files and the England papers, it just didn't wash.  Much as
I respect your intelligence and resourcefulness, and the charisma with which
you lead a bunch of us otherwise reasonably intelligent people to bust our
bunns in the jungles of Niku, I don't think you're up to faking the whole
thing, and certainly none of the rest of us is.

Tom King
***************************************************************

From Ric

I got to thinking about this whole issue last night and it struck me as
hilarious that someone should think that we (or I) would construct an
elaborate hoax in order to raise funds "for continued research."  Anybody who
knows anything about TIGHAR and our financial situation knows that we operate
on a shoestring and that most of the funds raised for expeditions are spent on
transportation costs.  If there's a hoax here it's being perpetrated by the
airlines and the ship owners.

It is certainly possible to cash-in on Ameliamania without going to all this
trouble.  I could just write a book like everybody else.

So why DO we do this?  Because, for a certain type of person, this kind of
chase is absolutely intoxicating.  I can't imagine that simply playing a big
joke on everyone would be nearly as much fun as discovering the truth about a
great historical mystery.

LTM,
Ric
***************************************************************
From Randy Jacobson 1364

Another interpretation to Sactodave's question is whether the evidence to
date is "hard" enough to be considered proof of AE or FJN.  I think, Ric,
you went overboard a little bit with the fraud interpretation.  In
re-reading his second post, sactodave was a little unjust implying planting
of evidence.
***************************************************************
From Ric

Proof is not what we have.  Clues are what we have.  Proof is what we are
after.  And any implication that we would be anything other than absolutely
straightforward, honest and open about our work attacks the very heart of an
historical organization.
****************************************************************
From Sactodave

My father and I "risked our lives"  to locate downed aircraft for many
years in the western US.  If we did find the aircraft, it had a rather
large "N" number on the fuselage or wing, human remains in, or around
the wreckage, serial numbers on aircraft components, or personal (and
unique) articles of clothing.  NBC, and the other networks were not
documenting our efforts, so the pressure to produce results in the glare
of the media was not a factor.  I don't hide my trepidations concerning
the veracity of your crew. If they did in fact plant the evidence prior
to your documented arrival, then yes, it is fraud.  If they did not,
then it is a rather large coincidence that just the right amount and
type of inconclusive artifacts are located to somehow tie them to the
undeclared discovery of Eahart. As I've stated before, it would be the
find of our century to locate that airplane. To base the discovery on
the artifacts in TIGHAR'S possession, or even continue the research
based on those meager scraps, would be a waste of time and money.
************************************************************

From Ric

And I used to think that Dick Strippel tried my patience.

*************************************************************
From Jerry Hamilton #2128

Re fraud comments by Sactodave. Ric, what's got into you? Did the trip
across the pond totally civilize you? While you may have accepted his
comments with reasonable calm, I didn't. I say tell him to stuff it! And
censor him from the forum. There are plenty of talk radio shows for his
drivel. Probing, challenging, intelligent questioning is one thing, this
crap we absolutely do not need. And it serves no useful purpose.

blue skies, -jerry
****************************************************************
From Ric

I hear ya, but I figure it's good practice.  The closer we get to wrapping
this thing up the louder some people are going to scream.  We deal with facts
and evidence, but we shouldn't forget that Earhart is not a missing pilot; she
is an icon.  If (no, When) we have the any-idiot-artifacts and the DNA-matched
bones in hand, we will have made dozens of books, articles and documentaries
obsolete.  We will have replaced several versions of a romantic myth with a
single documented history, and there will be many who will hate us for that.
Sactodave is clueless but he says the kind of things that are bound to be
said. It will get worse.

In the meantime, I'll exercise my responsibilites as moderator of the forum
and assure that postings stay more or less on topic.

***************************************************************
From Tom Robison 2179

Never mind planted evidence and forged documents and bribed anthropologists
and all that other insignificant stuff... where the hell is my mousepad,
you charlatan!

;>)

Tom #2179
***************************************************************

From Ric

The mouse pads went out at least three weeks ago!  Honest to God!  I got
witnesses!  We must have missed your order.  I'll check and get yours right
out to you.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:52:22 EST
From:         Tom Robison
Subject:      Game?

>We still need a really beat-up Pratt & Whitney "Wasp" R1340 S3H1, serial
>number 6150 (make it look good).  Stick it in the bushes on the shore of
>Nutiran on Nikumaroro with a Lockheed 10 center section and maybe some old
>radios.
>
>Get another engine and make a data plate that says 6149.  Tear it up even
>worse and bury it in the dump on Canton Island.
>
>Oh, and don't let anybody see you!

Ric something intriguing just occurred to me. It won't help in the search
for Amelia, but it sure would be neat.

Is anyone on the list a Computer graphics specialist? Could a "virtual
reality" tour of Niku be possible? You know, the viewer would be in, say, a
helicopter, and he could "fly" around the island and "see" the various
places we've been discussing. With "pop-up" signposts saying "shoes were
found here" and "campfire was here" etc. Perhaps he could land on the
island and see for himself the lagoon, the impenetrable parts of the
jungle, etc.

Maybe a game could be made of it, a'la the "Titanic: An Adventure Out of
Time" CD. In this CD, one can take a virtual reality tour of the ship just
for historical interest, or one can play a mystery game also. (I'm not
suggesting that we make fun of your work, only that in game-form it might
be more marketable.)

I know this would be a big task, but it might sell, and create a few more
bucks for TIGHAR.

Just a thought, and perhaps not a good one, but I thought I'd throw it out
there and suffer the slings and arrows of ridicule.

Tom #2179

**************************************************************

From Ric

I like it.  If we had somebody who could do a nice job of it as a contribution
to TIGHAR we could mount it on the website as a free feature and it would make
the website that much more attractive and popular.
(Incidentally, the new fancy graphics and the Lae take-off film are prompting
steady growth in our website hits and the forum is now up to almost 450
subscribers.)

If we had to pay for the "Tour of Niku" simulation it would have to wait until
we have funding.

As for games, we've long wanted to produce a CD with a flight simulator game
which recreates the Lae/Howland flight.  Can you find Howland Island?  Want to
spy on the Japanese?  You can load special cameras aboard but you'll have to
leave some fuel behind.  Can you go to Truk or the Marshalls and still be
within a hundred miles of Howland by 07:42 the next morning?  Can't find
Howland?  What's your best chance for finding land before your fuel runs out?

The same CD could have a search game.  Lots of great possibilities, all
requiring vast sums of money.  Sponsors? Investors?  You know where I am.

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:55:20 EST
From:         Fred Madio
Subject:      Re: corks

For whatever it may be worth as a lead for a serious researcher, thermos
bottles were made by a company of the same name in Norwich Conn.

Norwich is about 2+ hrs from Boston, and I have relatives there.  Let me know
if I can help in some way.

Regards/. . . Uncle Traveling Fred
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:08:07 EST
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Boxes and canoe.....

Ric responded to Rupe on November 28:  "The boxes and canoe that PBY pilot John Mims
brought home from Gardner have inlaid aluminum that the locals told him was "from the
crashed plane" that was on the island when the first settlers arrived."

Question: What happened to, or where are the boxes John Mims brought home?
Does the inlaid aluminum have any identifying marks, serial numbers or rivet
patterns?  Could an examination of the aluminum by Lockheed or any certified
metallurgist, date or identify the aluminum as that used on a L-10-E or any
L-10?

It's a long shot, but.....??

Roger Kelley, 2112

***************************************************************

From Ric

<<What happened to, or where are the boxes John Mims brought home? >>
He still has 'em.

<<Does the inlaid aluminum have any identifying marks, serial numbers or rivet
patterns?>>

Nope.  These are tiny little diamond-shaped pieces less than an inch long.  No
rivet holes, markings, numbers, nothing.

<<Could an examination of the aluminum by Lockheed or any certified
metallurgist, date or identify the aluminum as that used on a L-10-E or any
L-10?>>

Unfortunately, no.  We've been thoroughly down that road with Alcoa and our
piece of airplane skin (artifact 2-2-V-1).  Airplane aluminum of the 1930s
(then known as 24ST Alclad) is not materially different from the stuff made
today (now known as 2024 Alclad).

LTM,
Ric
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:22:35 EST
From:         Michelle
Subject:      Lae Takeoff Video

I just tried to take a look at the Lae takeoff video on the TIGHAR
website.  The 28.8K version worked fine, but I was unable to download
the 891K version.  When I click on the link, all I get is gibberish.
Anybody else have that problem?

Michelle

***************************************************************
From Ric

The 891K version is actually kind of hi-tech and requires more bells and
whistles than a lot of people have.  You have to save the gibberish to your
desktop then play it with RealPlayer and even then you may just get snippits
from the film.

I'd like to know how much of a problem it is.  In-put welcome.