Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:43:05 EST
From:         Tom Cook
Subject:      D18

Chuck Jackson mentioned a D 18, is that also known as a Beech 18? Vincenes (IN)  University, has one.  When I saw it, I thought it was an Electra,  twin engine, twin tail, radial engines,2 blade props, tail drager gear, windows down the sides,  evan has a loop antena on top! There was an Electra abandoned  at the Evansville,IN airport about 30 years ago, landed one night with one engine "out", pilot disappeared!  I am trying to find out what happened to it.
Tom Cook Tighar  2127
*************************************************************

From Ric

Yes.  D18, Beech 18, Twin Beech, all the same.  It's really quite a bit smaller than a Lockheed Model 10 but similar enough in general layout to act as a stand-in for Amelia's plane in the 1995 made-for-television movie Final Flight (alternatively titled "Diane Keaton Circumnavigates Southern California in a Twin Beech").
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:48:17 EST
From:            Don Jordan
Subject:      No prop?

> I'm sure that we have some forum members who can describe what would happen if
> you ever got a radial engine started with no prop attached.

I believe you would shoot oil to the next island out of the prop shaft.  As all pilots know, the constant speed propeller is operated by oil pressure in the center of the crank shaft.

I've never seem a 1937 radial engine, but I assume it is the same.

Don Jordan (#2109)

************************************************************
From Ric

The rotating mass of the propeller also acts as a flywheel.  Engines that are run on test stands use a clubbed prop.  A propless engine would quickly tear itself apart.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:50:10 EST
From:          Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

Ric wrote:

> Excellent work.  Sounds like you may be on the trail.  Does the census give
> middle names or initials?   Our boy was Frederick J. (don't know what it stood
> for though).

Some census give initials, but not this one...  I have written to a source in Chicago, that has some IL birth records from 1870-present. Maybe we'll get real lucky and find Fred's!  Birth records typically list parents names.  I am also tracking down archived newspaper microfilm for  the Santa Barbara area which might discuss Fred's life, death, and "surviving" family.  Will see what turns up.

Sandy #2110
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:51:11 EST
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

Jerry Hamilton wrote:

> Some of the Noonan info suggests Fred was educated in "Chicago" public
> schools and went to private Illinois military academy. Any thing in the
> Warren county area that can be checked?

Yes.  That's on the list.  Do you live up that way...??? <g>

Sandy
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:53:41 EST
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

Jerry Hamilton wrote:

> I talked with Richard Noonan of Studio City. He didn't really have anything
> more than he had already mentioned to Ric. He says his father was a cousin
> of Fred Noonan. His grandfather would have been a brother to Fred Noonan's
> father John Noonan. His grandfather (Thomas Francis) was born in Jersey
> City in 1864/63. Maybe Jersey is a place to start to search for records
> tieing this together by verifying Fred's father John had a brother named
> Thomas Francis. Does this make sense and does it really matter or help us
> get anywhere?

Did Richard say Fred's father was John????!!

I did get a start checking Noonans in Jersey City.  But only got through 1860.  Will look at 1850 and 1870 on next trip.

Sandy #2110
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:55:13 EST
From:          Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

Jerry wrote:

> In Susan Butler's book, "East To The Dawn", a good friend of Noonan's is
> mentioned to whom he sent letters while on the flight. Her name is Helen
> (Day) Bible and Ms. Butler says she interviewed her and used some of those
> letters. It occurs to me that Helen Bible may know something about Noonan's
> sisters and brothers. Do you have any connection with Butler? Or do you
> know about Bible? Must be my day to send you cyber messages.

Do you have a copy of this book?  Does it, 1.List a place of residence for the author?  2. Have an address of the publisher.  And, 3.When was it published?  Thanks.

Sandy #2110
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:05:40 EST
From:         R Batista
Subject:      No prop?

I've wondered this myself. Perhaps you could explain what does happen when the engine is started with no prop. (perhaps overheats).... but does this matter when there is no chance of taking off again?
****************************************************************

From Richard Pingrey

As to running the engines without a prop attached.  You wouldn't want to be within a 100 yards of the airplane if you could get the engines to start.  The props store the energy produced by the engine like the flywheel on a car engine but to an even greater extent.  You wouldn't want to be around the general area without the controlling force of the prop.  This is irrelevant as Fred and AE couldn't remove the prop without very special tools, stands, etc. and if they came off the damage would be so great that you wouldn't be able to start an engine regardless.

Dick Pingrey
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:51:47 EST
From:         Mike Ruiz, posting a message from a friend
Subject:      Lambrecht

Vought O3U Corsair
Last revised: 25 May 1996
Development of O2U, basically identical to the O2U-4. Later they were renamed SU.
Type: SU-4
Task: observation
Year: Crew: 2 Engines: 1 * 447kW P&W R-1690-42
Wing Span: 10.97m Length: 8.37m Height: 3.45m Wing Area: 31.31m2
Empty Weight: 1502kg Max.Weight: 2161kg
Speed: 269km/h Ceiling: 5670m Range: 1094km
Armament: 3*mg7.62mm

Could not find an explicit description of a Vought O3U-3 aircraft. Indication that Navy changed designation to SU. In any case, these planes seemed to have a range of about 600 statute miles at a top speed of about 150 sm/hr for an endurance of about 4 hours. At a speed of 130-140 mph the endurance was probably 4   hours --- thus 3   hours of search time with 1 hour's fuel reserve.

I estimate a total of 325 sm for the McKean - Gardner - Carondelet Reef search.  Assuming 130 sm/hr speed between search areas, gives 2   hrs --- leaving 1 hr for search time.

"McKean did not require more than a perfunctory examination" --- to me that means 5 minutes, no more than 10 minutes.

Carondelet Reef --- "no part of the reef is above water - nothing there - planes returned to ship."  No search required, nothing above water, that leaves maybe 50 minutes for the search of Gardner Island!

Three airplanes, six people searching for 50 minutes --- that's equivalent of 300 minutes - 5 hours of search time by one person! Given my 25 years experience in avian aerial surveys in the coastal plane of Virginia and the Carolinas, including the barrier islands, finding a Lockheed Electra, or parts thereof, on Gardner Island would be a "no-brainer" given 50 minutes in my Cessna 172!  Looking for footprints on the beach and around the lagoon plus counting the number of coconut crabs while avoiding the birds would take a little more time.

 Since the US Government built a runway for AE to use on a worthless pile of coral called Howland Island, she and FN would have had every confidence that an aerial search would be mounted for them. If they had gotten to Gardner Island by life raft before Lambrecht over flew the area, they would have taken any number of actions to call attention to their presence. Lambrecht saw no evidence of AE/FN simply because there was nothing to see.
**************************************************************

From Ric

Let me address the last comment first.  The idea that Earhart's flight had unlimited U.S. government support is folklore. The construction of a runway at Howland was planned by the Department of the Interior without regard to Earhart's flight and was motivated by issues of international trade which were seen as vital to U.S. interests.  The construction plans were merely hastened as a favor to AE.  No contingency plan of any kind was  part of the U.S. government's support of Earhart's flight.  The message traffic surrounding the organization (such as it was) of the search effort makes it clear that this was a catch-as-catch-can scramble that sort of got out of hand.

As for the search by the Colorado aircraft, it's a pity that our Skyhawk pilot was not available back then.  We might all now be working on The Hoffa Project.  If we want to make a serious study of how much time the 1937 search of Gardner may have entailed, let's establish some facts.
 
1.  Where was the launch point?

The deck log of BB45 (USS Colorado) shows the ship's Lat/Long at 0800, noon and 2000. At 0800 the ship was at 4 degrees, 3 minutes South Lat.,174 degrees 40 minutes West Long.  For the past hour it had been making 7 knots on a heading of 150 degrees which should put it at 3 degrees 58 minutes South, 174 degrees 44 minutes West at the time of launch.

2. What was the launch time?

According to the log, Lambrecht, in plane number 4-0-4, was catapulted at 0656.  Fox, in 4-0-6, left the deck 30 seconds later and Short, in 4-0-5 was launched at 0700.

3.  What was the total duration of the mission?

Plane 4-0-4 (Lambrecht) was hoisted aboard at 1025.  Fox came aboard at 1035 and Short at 1037.  So if we allow, say, 5 minutes on either end for join up and landing, the mission lasted from 0705 until 1020 - a total of 3 hours 15 minutes.

4.  What was the total distance covered?

Between 0700 and 1000, BB45 made an average of 12 knots on a heading of 150 degrees.  That puts the recovery point at roughly 4 degrees 31 minutes South, 174 degrees 25 minutes West.  Launch point to McKean was 42 nm.  McKean to Gardner is 67 nm.  Gardner to Carondelet Reef is 68 nm.  Carondelet to the recovery point was 72 nm.  Total distance 249 nm (289 sm).

5.  What cruising speed did the aircraft use when enroute?

We don't know.  My personal opinion is that 130 to 140 mph (113 to 122 kts) is too high for the economical cruise speed of an airplane with a top speed of 150 mph (130 kts).  My guess is that the speed used by the Lexington's search planes - 110 mph (95 kts) - is more realistic.  (Perhaps TIGHAR member Bill Moss, who flew off the Lex during the Earhart search, could offer an opinion.)

6. Finally, how much time is unaccounted for by travel and could have been spent at the three search points?

If we use 122 kts to cover the 249 nm distance, we account for just about exactly 2 hours of the 3 hours 15 minute mission, leaving an hour and a quarter to divide among McKean, Gardner, and Carondelet.  If we use 95 kts, it takes 2 hours 37 minutes to cover the distance, leaving 38 minutes of total search time.

That's a big difference. It's apparent that we need to get a better handle on how fast these guys were going between islands.

Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:16:32 EST
From:            Bob
Subject:      Antennas

As mentioned in the email yesterday, the antennas were connected to the transmitters/receivers with a single insulated wire. This wire actually became part of the antenna system. This wire could be called an antenna lead in or more properly the antenna transmission line.

Regards, 
Bob
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:39:44 EST
From:         Paul Verde
Subject:      Dumb Question?

I had a thought and for the sake of possibly being considered politically incorrect or even environmentally unfriendly..... here goes!

Since the island is presently uninhabited, and we are looking for objects large and small.  Would it or could it be possible to overfly the island far enough ahead of a visit to spray it with a defoliant. (I'm no chemical expert, but the stuff would grow back in time.)  Would this give us the needed visibility for a satellite fly over?  Or make it easier to locate items during an onsite visit?

Again, just a thought.

Don't burn me at the stake!

Paul Verde
Lifetime Member # 1447

***************************************************************

From Ric

I'll try to be gentle.  Nikumaroro is a valued part of the Republic of Kiribati and is one of the few Pacific atolls which have not suffered the depredations of over development.  Kiribati is currently struggling to come up with a plan for the re-settlement of the island which will not destroy its pristine beauty.

God knows, the place has tried to kill me more than once, but if I had to choose, I'd leave Amelia unfound rather than mess it up.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:41:07 EST
From:           Vern Klein
Subject:      Antenna lead in

Thanks for the information regarding the wire in the cover photo.  It takes a while for memories from well over a half-century ago to surface.  I finally remembered, as a kid, paging through the ARRL Handbook again and again.  And I remembered that they did just run a wire out to an antenna with the other side "earthed" -- no transmission line as such.  Those stand-off insulators are a pretty good clue.  So, it's not co-ax at all, just an insulated wire held away from the bulkhead and kept from swinging about by the stand-off insulators.  We just can't find a place for that co-ax in the Electra!

Maybe input to a receiver?  Maybe the RDF receiver is a candidate.  It seems to me one would want to avoid any signal pickup other than from the loop. In the arrangement above, that wire is part of the antenna, although mostly inside the aircraft.  Maybe a shielded wire would have been used in that application.

And a further question...  How do you figure the transmit/recieve situation was handled?  I'm tempted to believe the same antenna would be used -- and the same lead-in wire?  Depends on where the receiver is located, it seems.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:43:08 EST
From:          Ron Dawson
Subject:      Pacific Manuscripts Bureau

Unless you have already seen it, you might want to look at the website of the Pacific Manuscripts Bureau in Australia. They seem to be trying to collect a range of documents, personal and governmental. Might be something in addition to those contained by the archives of the Western Pacific High Commission in the U.K. URL is
http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/spin/RSRC/PMB/pmbhom7.htm
Yes, I know its a screenful.

Ron Dawson, 2126
***************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks Ron.

Kent?  Kris?  Sic 'em.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:44:41 EST
From:          Vern Klein
Subject:      Magneto wire

I keep trying to stuff that piece of co-ax/shielded-wire into the Electra somewhere.  And it keeps popping out again!  I don't think it will stay put in the ignition system either.  It's not robust enough.  There's not enough insulation between center conductor and shield for the voltages involved.

I've been going through '30s issues of journals like "Aviation" which became "Aviation Week, etc." and "Aero Digest."  And the amateur radio publication, "QST" for general radio practice of the period.  I see a lot of interesting stuff including Scintilla magnetos, Western Electric transmitters and receivers, vertical antennas and trailing wires.  But I'm not finding much that's helpful. There's not enough detail.  Nothing about connectors used and nothing about how radio gear was connected to antennas.

They were struggling with the problem of ignition system noise.  They were trying to use shielded ignition wiring and haveing lots of problems with that.  Typically the shielding braid was the outer most layer.  Oil would get through the braid and degrade the rubber leading to insulation failure, engines quiting, and forced landings.  There would have been little point in an outer jacket if it too was rubber.

It looks like a shielded lead-in to a reciever or, possibly, a microphone cable are about the only possibilities remaining... unless someone can think of something else that would have needed a shielded wire.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:45:45 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

A technical library is an unlikely place to look for Noonan but since I was there dragging out very old magazines...

I did find one "Noonan" who seemed to be in the right place:  Chicago. He might be some kind of relative of Fred J. Noonan.

"Who was who in American History -- Science and Technology"

Edward J. Noonan -- Civil Engineer, I think.
Born:  1874
Children:  Helen Marie and Eddy Jo.  I didn't make note of the wife's name.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:47:26 EST
From:           Vern Klein
Subject:      No prop

Indulge me...  This is pretty much off-topic but I've wondered... An aircraft engine won't run without a prop, will it?  No "flywheel" to carry it through the next compression stroke.  If it did run, you'd sure have to throttle back fast!  I once heard of such an event at the local P&W plant (WWII time) reported as the engine having suffered "Intermolecular Maladhesion!"
***************************************************************

From Ric

That's a pretty good description of what an engine would do.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:53:16 EST
From:          Bill Scarborough
Subject:      Air Comics

The article, (in Air Classics magazine) by Rollin C. Reineck, claims AE's fate "known" to FDR Administration but no information volunteered to researchers. Further claims SecTreas Morgenthau, Jr was in control information and released none to requests.  This included copies of ITASCA  Comm Log requested by Paul Mantz.  Much discussion re "safeguarding AE's reputation which would be marred" by Comm Log release.  Also references to AE disregarding "orders"(?).

Sounds like effort to revive the Japanese Agent myth!

Will be looking for further discussion!
Bill Scarborough
***************************************************************

From Ric

Well Bill, tempting as it is to go another few rounds with Rollie Reineck, the rehash of thoroughly debunked conspiracy theories is off topic for this forum. Besides, I make it a practice never to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:56:58 EST
From:         Marilyn Pollock
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

East to the Dawn, first publishing Sept '97, Addison-Wesley of Reading, Mass., is the publisher.  Their web is www.aw.com/gb/

No mention of Susan Butler's address.

Marilyn #1238
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:59:44 EST
From:          Fred Madio
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

I'm absolutely nobodies idea of a genalogist, but a few years ago I found out that the Mormon Church (In Salt Lake City) has an astonishing amount of information on the who-what-where-when of lots of people.  Are there any real genalogist out there checking into this soruce for information on Fred N.?

R/... Fred Madio
**************************************************************
From Ric

I think it's apparent from her postings that Sandy Campbell is hot on the trail.  I'm sure she has the Mormons in her arsenal of sources.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:15:45 EST
From:          Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

To Sandy,
 Nope. I reside in the San Francisco Bay area. I have a friend in Santa Barbara also trying to track down marriage certificate info on Noonan. Maybe we should coordinate our efforts there. Contact me at jham@ccnet.com.

                                                Blue skies,  -jerry
***************************************************************
From Ric
 Didn't we have information that Fred and Mary Bea were married in Yuma, AZ?
***************************************************************

To Sandy:

From Jerry
I have copy, published in 1997. Just contacted publisher via their web page. Just got address for Susan from them today. Will send letter to her asking for help.

                                        Blue skies,  -jerry
****************************************************************
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:21:23 EST
From:          Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

Att: Sandy Campbell:

Checking Family Tree Maker we found the same Fred Noonan that you found on the 1900 IL Census soundex.  The program has the following information:

Husband-John Noonan, born May 1860 in Illinois
Wife-Ellen Shunick, born May 1860 in Warren Co., Illinois
    Father-Edmund Shunick, Mother-Hannora Croft
Children:
        Florence married Sylvester Hellhake, she was living in Galesburg, Illinois in 1978, had a son named Fred Hellhake.
        Mary, born July 1888 in Warren Co., Illinois
        Nora, born Feb 1890 in Warren Co., Illinois
        William, born Dec 1891 in Warren Co., Illinois
        Leal, born Oct 1893 in Warren Co., Illinois
        Ella, born Feb 1896 in Warren Co., Illinois
        Fred, born Dec 1899 in Warren Co., Illinois

This is the only Fred Noonan on CD that comes with the program but we are going to check the more extensive site on the internet next.

Dick Pingrey

***************************************************************

From Ric

If this is indeed "our" Fred Noonan it means that he was younger, not older, than AE who was born in 1897.  Interesting.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:33:43 EST
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

Attn: Sandy Campbell

The California State Library at Sacramento has an extensive collection of newspapers from all over the state on microfilm.  Many of these date back to the early part of the century.  We used them to search for obituaries and related information a few years ago.  They could probably be obtained through inter-library loan if Sacramento is to distant for you to use the State Library.  Many of the newspaper have been indexed for individual names.  The librarians could possibly check the indexes for you.

In Chicago the Newbury Library has a very extensive genealogy section and there may be a researcher at the Library who could do some checking on Fred.  At the New England Historic Genealogical Society Library in Boston there is (or was) a research specialist by the name of Gary Boyd Roberts. Gary is unbelievable when it comes to finding people.  Although there might be a fee for his services, if Fred's ancestry can be found and we can't find it Gary Boyd Roberts is where I would hang my hat.

Dick Pingrey

****************************************************************

From Jerry for Sandy:

Oops, sorry. I have no corroboration of Fred's father's name from any other source. I was using the info you found on the Noonans of Warren county and trying to connect the dots.

Separately for what its worth, Susan Butler ("East To The Dawn") says Noonan was in the Royal British Naval Service in the Great War. Maybe that ties with the info that says he attended London Nautical College. I tried to find the college on the web and found a London Nautical School. But the site was only one page and I'm not sure it was working properly so I couldn't get any further've heard of the Royal Navy, but I'd like to ask our subscribers in the UK if they've ever heard of an organization called the Royal British Naval Service?
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:41:20 EST
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

AND THE ANSWER IS - Yuma Arizona, Saturday March 27, 1937!!

The question - Where and when did Frederick J. Noonan marry Mary B. Martinelli?

        This info courtesy of the Oakland Tribune, March 29, 1937. Other stuff:
        - they motored from Burbank to Yuma.
        - plan brief honeymoon in Hollywood.
        - Mary operated beauty salon at 3337 Lakeshore Drive, Oakland.
        - they expect to make their home in Oakland.

AND THE ANSWER IS - Fresno California, Sunday April 4, 1937!!!

The question - Where and when did Noonan have an auto wreck?

        Oakland Trib, March 5. Other stuff:
        - Noonan received skinned hand, Mary cut on knee/scalp.
        - on their way to Burbank.
        - head on collision, no one seriously hurt (must have been goin' slow or the metal was better in those old cars).
        - Noonan cited for driving in wrong traffic lane. (!)
        - article has nice picture of Ms. Mary.

AND THE QUESTION IS - Why Yuma for crying out loud??!
She was from California, Merced pioneering family, and lived in Oakland. Maybe he had family there, (fingers crossed) I hope. Unless someone can get to Yuma library easily in person, I'll have them track down the article on the marriage in the local paper (and hopefully it will have some detail on Fred's family). Should take a couple of weeks.

Found a few other interesting tid bits. (hey, I could have even bought a cool Buick sedan with "DeLuxe Equipment" for only $1,160.) I'll fax the info if you want Ric and will also send copies to the Fawkes address. And I'll dig deeper into these fun archives when I can.

Talked to another PanAm Clipper pilot a few days ago. He retired in 1963. He was stationed in Miami with PanAm when Noonan was there and knew about him, but was not a friend (and never took Noonan's navigator course) and so recalls no details. He also came to Oakland, but after Noonan had already disappeared. If I talk to one more Clipper pilot I get to write a book.

                                        Blue skies, -jerry #2128

***************************************************************

From Ric

Good work Jerry!  No need to fax the stuff.  Mail is fine.

This work on Noonan has needed doing for a long time.  He has always been the neglected crewmember on the Electra and, too often, the scapegoat in the disappearance.   Maybe we need to formally initiate The Noonan Project.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:07:08 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Lambrecht

My estimate of 95 knots was based upon ALL flights of the Colorado planes during the search, including three to Winslow Reef, and to all of the Phoenix Islands (four in total), including precise navigation of the Colorado launch and recovery points, and including wind vectors. 

Randy Jacobson, Tighar 1364.

**************************************************************

From Ric

Sounds good to me.  If 95 kts seems slow as an economical cruise speed for an airplane with a top speed of 130 kts, remember that the O3U-3 was, by modern standards, terribly inefficient aerodynamically.  Lots of built-in head wind. Drag increases as the square of speed and if the old girl could be bullied into a top speed of 130 kts through sheer horsepower, I'm sure she didn't like it much.  I don't find 95 kts at all difficult to accept as a cruise speed.

Randy, do you recall what you came up with for total available search time (exclusive of transit time)?
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:08:48 EST
From:         Bruce Yoho
Subject:      Magneto wire

Vern, the wire you want to research is what is called the P-lead wire. This wire goes between the Mag Switch and Magneto to ground the mag. after shut down.

The issue, as you discribed it, is the wire could not be between the mag and spark plug. This is because of the high voltage generated to fire the plug this requires a considerable amount of insulation which would present itself as a much,much larger wire than the artifact in hand.

I have a mag. at school and trying to find the lead connector, however I think it will turn out to be a special one that has a unique safty system with a clip.

I will keep checking I just did not want you to give up yet. By the way the P- lead was a shielded wire as it normally went to the cockpit where instruments and radios would obsorb the RF if it was not shielded.
Bruce
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:11:21 EST
From:         John Clauss
Subject:      Dumb Question, YES!

I just couldn't let this one go by.  The Phoenix Islands support the largest concentration of seabirds in the world.  Most of these islands are uninhabited and have seen minimal disturbance by man.  Kanton being the major exception.  The air base on Kanton was built during WWII and has supported various projects through the late 70's.

The Air Force operations in the Phoenix islands were under intense environmental and ecological scrutiny all during the 70's up until the islands were turned over to the Republic of Kiribati.  The UN and various US agencies were looking over the military's shoulder constantly.  They had to pay attention to individual bird kills.  There was no unauthorized or unnecessary travel to the outlying islands from the air base.   Procedures were also in place to limit the transfer of non native plants and insects by the helicopters from Canton to these islands.

People in the know consider this area to be the largest seabird sanctuary in the world.  I am not even mentioning the plant and marine life that is so abundant.  If you spilled a five gallon container of insecticide or defoliant on one of these islands it would be a major event. 

I don't mean to sound like a fanatic on this.  It's just that several of us have been researching the military operations in this area during the 70's and the number one issue (besides the missile tracking project) has been the ecology of the Phoenix Islands.

John Clauss  #142
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:12:19 EST
From:         Fred Madio
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

To Dick Pingrey and Sandy Campbell

I live just outside Boston.  So if I can help in some way with the New England Historic Genealogical Society Library and Gary Boyd Roberts please let me know.  My e-mail address is:  fmadio@mitre.org

Regards:  Fred Madio
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:15:51 EST
From:         Jerry Sawyer
Subject:      Dumb question

Well said, Ric.  While I understand that the original poster is coming from a position of relative unknowing, the last thing we need to consider is wreaking ecological havoc anywhere in the world.  There's been too much of that already and I think that we, as archaeologists, explorers, investigators need to set a standard for non-destructive research whenever possible.  Granted, by its very nature, archaeology is destructive, but, by using non-invasive or minimally invasive techniques when possible and attempting to maintain or restore the landscape when done, we will certainly be seen in a better light and our research endeavors-which are often hindered by locals through misunderstanding of what it is we really do-may fair better in the future.

Cheers, 
Jerry
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:25:56 EST
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

By the time Jerry Passadori lets me look at those albums...we won't need them anymore.  Yesterday he said he wants to get together on Saturday and go over all the stuff.  He said the cousins also have things.

My post a few weeks ago about Fred and Mary getting married in Yuma, AZ must have been lost.  I know you got the information and I sent it to Sandy also.  Don't know what happened.

I live only 50 miles from Fresno, CA and go there often.  The next time I go down there I will check the library for the accident on April 4, 1937.  I think at this point though, it will just be interesting reading.  I will also start checking the other libraries for that date in the other towns I go to.

Did we ever find out if DNA could be lifted from the glue of a 61 year old envelope?

Don Jordan (#2109)
****************************************************************

From Ric

You never know what is going to turn up.  Any letter to or from or about Fred is of interest.

No, we haven't had an answer on your old envelope DNA question.  Anybody out there know if that's possible?
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:27:06 EST
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

Marilyn Pollock wrote:

> East to the Dawn, first publishing Sept '97, Addison-Wesley of Reading, Mass.,
> is the publisher.  Their web is www.aw.com/gb/
>
> No mention of Susan Butler's address.

Thanks Marilyn.  I'll see if they can't forward me an address.  I'm curious to ask Ms Butler about her references & these "letters"...

Sandy #2110
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:16:31 EST
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      About the forum

Just a couple of general comments for the entire forum:

There are now nearly three hundred subscribers to TIGHAR's Amelia Earhart Search Forum, only a few of whom regularly post messages, but that is very typical of email lists.  What is NOT typical is the high quality of the postings and the excellent research that the forum produces.  We really did not expect that.  When we instituted the forum back in November we thought that it would be a good way to spread the word about the methodology we employ and the results we've had in our investigation of the Earhart disappearance. We also hoped that it would bring TIGHAR some new members.

What we've found is that the forum subscribers are not merely interested in the work TIGHAR has done.  A significant proportion of you want to contribute to the project, whether by active research or just the expressing of an opinion. The forum is starting to produce long-needed answers to historical questions and is making progress on artifact identification. Membership in the organization is not something we've had to sell to forum subscribers.  It just happens.  People sign on, read the postings, decide that good and exciting work is being done, want to be part of it, and so they join TIGHAR.

Of course, the forum is not everyone's cup of tea and for the (on average) three new sign-ups every day, there is one sign off.  Some subscribers have had difficulty leaving the list and I recently discovered that there is an error in the sign off instructions I was sending out with the welcome message. Sorry about that.  It is really not our policy to take prisoners. If you want to leave the forum, send an email to this address:

listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com

and say:

signoff earhartforum (your email address)

That should do it.  If you have any problem please let me know.

The Amelia Earhart Search Forum has become an important research tool.  Thank you for participating.

Ric Gillespie
Executive Director
TIGHAR
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:22:09 EST
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Tracking Noonan

Dick,

Thanks for that data.  I've seen that referral. Is that from FTM Volume 8 ?  I have a couple of emails out checking that disk. I haven't heard back yet.  Do you have that volume?  Isn't there a reference to the submitter?  If so, would you please send directly to me at sjcamp@swbell.net  ?     Thanks again.
****************************************************************

More from Sandy

WAY TO GO, JERRY!!!  Are you making photocopies of all this? I'd be happy to reimburse you.  I'd like to lay all this data out in front of me so I can organize the puzzle.  If you don't mind sending those, I can email a fax number.  It's up to you. (I guess I should start reading at the bottom of my mailbox and go backwards!)

  And Ric, I think Amelia might agree with you on the Noonan Project. Also have found some addresses to write regarding Royal Navy WW1 records, etc..., just takes alittle more time.

Sandy #2110
****************************************************************
And again from Sandy

Ric,

I meant to ask... So Mary B. Passadori was married to a Martinelli before Noonan? And then later an Ireland...?  Is that how it goes? Mary Beatrice Passadori Martinelli Noonan Ireland.  aka Mary.

Sandy  #2110
**************************************************************

From Ric

You got it.  Now let's see you do Elizabeth Taylor.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:31:24 EST
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Attn: Fred Madio

I would suggest holding off on using Gary Boyd Roberts at the NEHGS in Boston until Sandy Campbell has a chance to complete her research.  There is a charge for non members to use the Society library and normally a charge would be required when using the services of Gary Roberts.

Dick Pingrey

*************************************************************

From Mike Ruiz

In reference to Noonan taking the blame, a recent editorial I read regarding the Guam 747 crash made a good point, the pilot ultimately is responsible for the fate of her or his aircraft.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:10:48 EST
From:         Jerry Ellis
Subject:      Magneto wire

I have a colleague, Giles Henderson, who is a pilot and a ham and he knows very well an ~80 year old fellow (Adkisson) in Tuscola, IL who is apparently a magneto expert (who is also a pilot and aircraft mechanic). I am sending my 1996 issue of Tracks with Giles on his next visit to see if the old guy can till us anything about the cables from the picture.  The insulation on the cable might be successfully identified by infrared spectroscopy and that would probable require very little sample.
                jerry

--
Jerry W. Ellis                      Carbohydrates, polymers and
Professor of Chemistry              Chemical Education
Department of Chemistry
Eastern Illinois University
**************************************************************

From Ric

TIGHAR member Bob Sherman was able to arrange for the Belden Wire and Cable Company of Richmond, IN to analyze one of the cables w/connector.  Sheyla Watson, their technical support person, should receive the artifact via FedEx today.

***************************************************************

From Vern

To:  Anyone who knows anything about likely radio hook-ups in the Electra.

I realize I'm beating this thing to death but I'm still trying to fit a lenght of shielded cable with rubber insulation and Jones Series 101 connectors into Amelia's Electra -- somewhere.

Whatever radio gear was in the Electra on that final flight, I'm inclined to think the same antenna AND LEAD-IN, whatever it was, would have been used for both recieving and transmitting.  And I would expect some kind of change over switch or relay.  This would seem to rule out the small, rubber insulated, shielded cable.  It's not suitable for transmitting.  Although my present impression is that the transmitter probably produced less than 50 watts, I don't think that cable would have been used.

Does anyone acquainted with the way things were done at that time see a way that cable might have been involved in a receive only situation?

We know there was an RDF loop connected to some receiver.  That is a receive only situation.  The lead from the loop necesarily passed through the least shielded part of the aircraft where undesired pickup by the lead might occur.  There is indication that Amelia may have had a seperate Bendix RDF reciever.

Does anyone have any thoughts about how the RDF loop probably would have been connected to whatever receiver it worked with -- possibly to the Bendix RDF receiver?

I don't know how much effort has gone into researching the radio equipment. It may not have been regarded as important since none of it was found anywhere. Have the possibilities already been exhausted?  My library research is not getting anywhere -- nothing about connectors or means for connection to antennas.
***************************************************************

From Ric

Actually, a great deal of effort has gone into trying to pin down exactly what the radio set up was on the airplane at the time it disappeared.  It's a difficult task because:

1.  The available official paperwork is woefully uninformative.
2.  Changes were being made right up to the departure from Miami on June 1.
3.  Photographs of the interior of the airplane after that date are nonexistant.

We know that the loop was a Bendix product.
We know that the Western Electric 20B receiver had no DF capability.
We know that AE asked Itasca to transmit letter As on 7500 Kcs, received that transmission, and attempted to DF on it without success.  The frequency seems far too high.  Their are allegations that a separate DF receiver (possibly experimental, possibly high frequency) was received from the Navy for installation in the airplane prior to the second attempt.  No, not evidence of a spy mission, but possibly some additional technical help. Amelia described the airplane's radios in an interview in Karachi and mentioned only the WE receiver under the co-pilot's seat, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

There is considerable evidence to indicate that the wire antenna on the belly of the aircraft was torn off during the takeoff from Lae.  We're not sure what the function of that antenna was. The whole radio queston is very frustrating.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:12:56 EST
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      The Noonan Project

By the way, I live about a mile from the Jersey City Library and City Hall, and can do some snooping aroung in their records if you think it would be productive tracking the Noonan lead.

I need to have something specific to go after before I show up and try to read though everything they have.  What are we looking for that might be in the Jersey City archives?

Andrew McKenna #1045
*************************************************************

From Ric

Sandy?  Jerry?
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:18:48 EST
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Re: About the forum

And the no-land club thanks TIGHAR for not kicking us off the forum.......

**************************************************************

From Ric

NAWWWW.  Reasoned debate is the essence of this kind of work.  You want to see a good fight some time, wait until you see me and Randy get into it.  So far we've stopped short of actually throwing furniture.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:19:50 EST
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Lambrecht

The Lambrecht Report is available anyone who is interested, just contact me at linvil@msn.com .

Thanks, Mike
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:25:45 EST
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      Lambrecht

Ric wrote:

>Randy, do you recall what you came up with for total available search time
>(exclusive of transit time)?

 No, since the best source of information on cruising speed was obtained from the search for Winslow Reef.  I don't believe I ever calculated times over the islands precisely, except to estimate it to be about 5 minutes each to begin to iterate their speed calculation (assumed 90 knots).  When that was close to flight times, I used 95, 100, etc, knots to see when flight times became in conflict with listed times from the bridge logs.  I used the fastest time consistent with all information, and that was 95 knots, + or - 2 knots.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:29:46 EST
From:         Fred Madio
Subject:      The Noonan Project

So noted.  I'll stand by and be ready to assist any way I can.  Stress that I'm not a genealogist -- just a TIGHAR that happens to live in the Boston area

Regards:  Fred Madio
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:08:32 EST
From:         Dick Strippel
Subject:      Canton Engine

Has anyone given any thought to th B-25 that crashed on t/o on Canton during the war.  Ric- what kind of engines did a B-25 have??????  ol' "bubblr-buster STRIPPEL IS AT IT AGAIN!!!!

REGARDS,  DICK

**************************************************************

From Ric

1.  We have found no record of such a crash.
2.  The North American B-25 Mitchell had Wright R2600 14 cylinder, double row radials.  About as different as it gets from the engine Bruce Yoho describes.
3.  Any aircraft that crashed on Canton is not an issue in this case.  The point is that Bruce brought the engine TO Canton FROM another island.  To bust this bubble you'll need to come with a documentable explanation for a P&W R1340 being on an island in the Phoenix Group other than Canton.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:12:37 EST
From:         Dick Strippel
Subject:      Coax cable

SORRY, CAN"T UNDERSTAND YOUR LOGIC. COAX WAS FIRST MFD IN THE MID/LATE '30S. ORIGINALLY USED RUBBER DIALECTRIC!!!!!  MUCH WAS HARDLINE MFD FROM COPPER PIPE!!!!!!!! IF WE'RE HISTORIANS, LET'S REALIZE THIS IS A MULTI-DISCIPLINE RESEARCH PROJECT WE'RE ON AND READ EVERY BIT OF RELATED STUFF WE CAN GET OUR HANDS ON!!!!!!!  VISIT USED-BOOK STORES AND OLD LIBRARIES.  ASK OLD TIMERS. I FOUND AN OLD A&E AT A LOCAL AIRPORT WHO WAS A FOUNT OFINFORMATION.  SOMEDAY I"LL TELL THE STORY OF HOW HE FITTED OUR HEROINE'S "PEE TUBE" BY HAND, OF COURSE!!!!!
                                           -DICK
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:14:48 EST
From:         Dick Strippel
Subject:      Safford's Manuscript

Last I heard it was with whatisname in Reno-- Cam Warren.  Most of us have a badly marked up copy.

  p.s. anyone have a good copy?????

        -dick
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:16:06 EST
From:         Jerry Hamiton
Subject:      The Noonan Project

To Andrew
 It's great you're there! I never discourage personal initiative, but think Sandy should be the Noonan genealogical coordinator as long as she's willing. I'm now coordinating with her (off line) as we were starting to duplicate effort. At this point, I think we should wait to see what we get from Yuma before starting to dig in Jersey. I'm hoping the Yuma info will give us specific direction for further investigation.
What think Sandy?
Blue skies,  jerry H. #2128
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:20:28 EST
From:         Dick Strippel
Subject:      Badly researched books

> I bother with the book "The Sound of Wings" by Mary S. Lovell?
>Or any other of the long line of books?

YES, IT'S ONE OF THE BEST SO FAR, BUT HAS A COUPLE OF BAD ERRORS WHICH WILL BECOME APPARENT AS YOU READ OTHER STUFF.  BEST OVER-ALL IS THE NAVY AND CG REPORTS -- DON'T DISCARD THEM WITH SUCH ABANDON AS RIC DOES  

--DICK STRIPPEL

***************************************************************

From Ric

??????????????
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:21:54 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      The Noonan Project

 Sorry Fred, I can't resist!  You would understand.

>> - Noonan cited for driving in wrong traffic lane. (!)  <<

Does this tell us something about Fred's navigation??  <Big Grin>

I definitely cast a "Yes" vote for a Noonan Project.  It looks like there's a lot of interesting stuff to be discovered about the "other person" who was also on that plane.  If we find one, we find the other... and the Electra.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:23:54 EST
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Magneto Wire

Thanks much for the information on magneto grounding!

Re:  That shielded cable.  I'm starting to feel like I'm picking petals from a daisy... It fits... It fits not... It fits... It fits not...

Not thinking in terms of magneto ignition, I'd not thought about how I stop my lawnmower.  I ground the sparkplug terminal!

I thought, yeah, that will work!  No high-voltage on a grounded lead. But what about the ungrounded situation?  The high-voltage is there then! The memory banks turned over slowly and there was the foggy thought that a magneto is not quite so simple... A primary and a secondary winding?

So, reasearch magnetos!  Yes, there are two windings and it's the primary winding that gets grounded to disable the magneto.  There will be a voltage pulse induced in the primary winding when the breaker-points open, but it won't be anything like the voltage across the secondary.

Back to "It fits" again!  I can believe that cable might be adequate and, as you point out, it sure has to be shielded.  Now if we could just confirm what sort of connectors were on Amelia's magnetos and the magneto switch! Then we could put the cable in the "definite possibility" catagory.

As I see it, we have two possibilities for the cable, a magneto grounding cable, or a receiving antenna connection with the loop antenna probably the best bet.

We'll sure be interested in what kind of connector you find on the magneto you mentioned.  Is it possibly old enough to be similar to what might have been on Amelia's engines?
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:42:44 EST
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      The Noonan Project

More good things from the Oakland Tribune:

+ Noonan filed for divorce from his first wife in Juarez, Mexico on March 3, 1937. Papers filed by his lawyer Salvador Franco Urias. AP dispatch from El Paso.

+ Noonan's first marriage was to Josie M. Sullivan, July 11, 1927 in Jackson, Mississippi.

+ Noonan lived in Oakland at 16 Wildwood Avenue.

+ On March 13, 1937 he was unexpectedly and informally announced as additional navigator by Manning who said, "Noonan's going along with us as far as Howland". Fred was expected to return via the Coast Guard cutter Shoshone.

+ The Trib reported that Noonan had rounded Cape Horn seven times, 3 by windjammer and 4 by steamer. Also that he had made 18 air passages to Manila.

My eyes have gone cross eyed trying to read the small Oak Trib print. I think this is most the Noonan stuff. Lots of other AE info to also dig out later.

Blue skies, jham #2128 (since there are other Jerry's, I'm switching to my email call sign).
**************************************************************

From Ric

YESSSS!  Progress.   We're starting to get a picture of Fred's life at the time of his involvement with AE.  He has been married to Josie for 10 years and has spent most of that time flying for Pan Am.  In early 1937 something precipitates a personal crisis and on March 3 he gets a Mexican divorce.  I'll betcha we find out that he leaves Pan Am around the same time. (Mid-life crisis. Leave a job gone sour.  Leave a bad marriage. Start fresh. Been there. Done that.)  Within 10 days he is hooked up with the Earhart flight. We already know why Fred was originally only going as far as Howland. 

1.  Earhart wanted to do as much of the flight solo as possible.  Manning was supposed to leave the flight at Darwin, Australia.
2.  Noonan's talents were most needed for the tricky job of finding Howland.
3.  There wasn't time to get him a visa for entering New Guinea.  Hawaii and Howland were both U.S. territory.

Interesting that, given the situation, he marries Mary Bea so soon after meeting her on the boat back from Hawaii.  Sound to me like a guy on the rebound.  Fascinating stuff.  Good work.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:51:27 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Canton Engine Logic

>To bust this bubble you'll need to come with a documentable explanation for
>a P&W R1340 being on an island in the Phoenix Group other than Canton.

We can't conclude its a PW R-1340.

***************************************************************

From Ric

Let's be clear about the nature of the Canton Engine investigation.  What we're dealing with at this point is an anecdote.  We don't really know if there was an engine at all.  Bruce could be just as full of beans as the people who saw Amelia executed and buried on Saipan.  When that spot was excavated by T. C. "Buddy" Brennan (Witness to the Execution, Renaissance House, 1988) no Amelia was found.  All Buddy found was a scrap of cloth which was immediately proclaimed to be the blindfold which was ripped from AE's eyes just before she was shot. (At TIGHAR, we usually shoot prisoners with the blindfold on.)

After checking out all the checkable aspects of Bruce's story, we have decided that it is credible enough to form the basis of a hypothesis that can be tested.  That hypothesis must, by definition, adhere to Bruce's recollections, to wit:

A relatively small, nine cylinder, single row, radial engine believed by the finder to be a P&W R1340, was recovered from the reef of one of the Phoenix Islands other than Canton and deposited in a specific dump/junkyard on Canton Island.

Our first attempt to test that hypothesis disclosed that the site had been altered subsequent to the engine being deposited there.  If our assessment of how that alteration took place is correct, and if the basic hypothesis is true, there should be a P&W R1340 buried there.  If excavation of the dump reveals no P&W R1340, then either our guess about what happend to it is wrong, or it was never there to begin with.  Either way, we're skunked.

All of this is by way of pointing out that it doesn't matter how many or what kind of other engines may be distributed around Canton Island or the Phoenix Group.  It's the hypothesis I'm referring to when I say,  "To bust this bubble you'll need to come with a documentable explanation for a P&W R1340 being on an island in the Phoenix Group other than Canton."  If someone was able to come up a documented incident that explained the events postulated in the hypothesis more easily and credibly than the engine being one of Amelia's, we could forget about the darned dump.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:30:44 EDT
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      The Noonan Project

I have to agree that the Noonan Project is a very worthwhile consideration. Such research can only yield more treasures of knowledge that will help to paint the background scenario more clearly as to why and how things happened the ways that they did. Some big issues can sometimes pivot on the smallest fact! By the way, as to the coax cable issue, be sure to take a peek at back issues of "The Radio Handbook," (my oldest copy is only 1948, but I'm sure it goes back further) and a lot of the military and trade equipment service manuals from that era, which are still extant, and preserved by a lot of keepers of the radio flame that I have mentioned in past entries. In fact, if anyone can shoot some of those radio equipment model numbers at me again, I'll gladly do some digging into it myself! Also being an amateur genealogist, I'd enjoy checking into Fred Noonan as well. Lastly, being a teacher, with summer coming on , I'll have literally DAYS to spend on a lot of this, exclusively, so I'll be sending in whatever I can find!
---Never tire of the quest!--Gene Dangelo :)
***************************************************************

From Ron Dawson

r.e.: Jerry's information on Fred's Juarez divorce.

Since I live in El Paso, I have some contacts in Cd. Juarez and will see if we can find any official info or copies of papers filed. However, "quickie" divorces were an industry in Juarez for a long time and they were not known for good record keeping. Worth a shot, though.

Ron Dawson

***************************************************************

From Sandy

To Andrew in JC:

I concur with Jerry.  It's good to know you are there and willing . As soon as we firm up some data on Fred's father, Jersey City may provide some further clues on the family.  But right now we're not sure which Noonan family we're looking at.  Thanks again.

Sandy #2110

**************************************************************

From Ric

To Ric re Noonan leaving Pan Am:

Good guess, or have you been peeking at the info? My data so far suggests he was fired, or quit Pan Am, at end of 1936/beginning of 1937. Still looking for more specifics on this. I'm wondering if leaving was precipitated by a "car accident". We'll see.

                                                Blue skies,  jham #2128

***************************************************************

From Ric

Just a hunch.  When I was in my mid30s I ended a bad 10-year marriage and left a job that had once been rewarding but had since gone sour.  Although the two actions were unrelated, both were part of a decision to fix the things that were wrong with my life.  I didn't have a drinking problem (no, really, honest, ya gotta believe me) but if I had, I would have seen that as one of the things I was going to fix.

I'm beginning to see Fred as a guy full of hope and determination to begin a new and better life, and I suspect that working with Earhart was a big part of that.  I thinking he probably busted his butt to do a good job.
****************************************************************

From Barbara Wiley

In 1989, Ann Pellegreno, famed female aviatrix, flew the Earhart Trail, 1967, as reported in her book, World Flight, met the first wife of Fred Noonan.  I have the picture of Katherine(I think this was her name).  This woman lives in Florida or did at that time.  Fred had two sons. 

Bea's relatives are in California/near Salinas, name is Gularte.  In 1989, Bea's only living sister invited me to her home, showed me all scrapbooks Bea had kept of Fred and her life.  Bea was a very accomplished orchid grower and that day her sister showed me the greenhouse in the back with the hybrid called "Amelia".  This sister died around 1992 - her son probably has all the memorbilia in his possession.  His name is Richard Gularte.

Another interesting twist, when Irene Bolam, the woman alleged to be AE incognitor in New Jersey was in the hospital on her death bed in 1982, her hospital room was flooded with this beautiful hybrid orchid.  Nurses teased Irene, "Do you have a new beau" and Irene said, "they were sent from a family friend from California."  I'd originally heard this story about four years prior to meeting Bea's sister and the visit, unique since "the press and AE researchers" had been held at by for years by this lady and the greenhouse invitation was touching.  To add to the mystic, IB was traveling internationally in 1960 70's and has picture taken with the "Noonan" family in Ireland who she had been visiting.

Bea's sister had little to say of IB.
Barbara

***************************************************************

From Ric

Sandy?  Jerry? et al  How does this information track with what you have found?  Guarte?  Where does that name come in?  I can't get Katherine out of Josie M. Sullivan.  Anybody got a copy of Ann Pellegrino's book?  Two sons? They would have been litle kids when their parents split but they might still be alive.  Heck.  Josie could still be alive, although she would probably be in her 90s.

***************************************************************

From Sandy

Ric:

Do we know where Fred Noonan was living in *1920* ??  Was he in this country??!!  The last Federal Census currently available is the 1920. I  didn't check it before, because I didn't have a state!  Was he working for PAM AM in FL that early??  Thanks.

Sandy #2110
***************************************************************

From Ric

Mary Lovell (The Sound of Wings) says he attended Weems School of Navigation in annapolis, MD and then went to work for Pan Am as a navigation instructor in 1925. She cites, as the source, a letter written by PVH Weems in the May 1938 issue of Popular Aviation magazine. Worth checking.  1920 might be a bit early for him to have been in Weems' school.  He may have still been at sea. If so, he'll be tough to find.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:39:20 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      The Noonan Project

I think I've about exhausted the Oakland Tribune newspaper files on Noonan. Here are a few last tidbits:

+ Forget Santa Barbara. Fred and Mary never lived there. She was living at his Oakland address and working at her beauty shop when Fred disappeared. In interviews with the Trib, she said, "Fred had had several good business offers and we planned to make our home in Southern California, which we both love so well". The paper reported that part of the household effects were in packing cases ready to be shipped to Hollywood. She is said to have intended to continue with the beauty shop even while living in Hollywood. Separate sources say that at the time of leaving Miami on the flight, Noonan had one PO Box in Hollywood and one in Oakland.

        + On July 4 Putnam drove to the Noonan home to console Mary. They talked for awhile and when leaving he said, "Keep your chin up, Bee. Don't worry".

        + On July 7 Mary received mail from Fred which included a letter and a packet of pictures. The letter was dated 22 June and mailed from Java. The pictures were mailed from Venezuela. Noonan's letter is quoted as saying, "Amelia is a grand person for such a trip. She is the only woman flier I would care to make such a trip with, because in addition to being a fine companion she can take hardships as well as a man - and work like one". (Boy, would these letters and pictures be interesting if they still exist!)

        + The Trib also reported that Noonan left home to go to sea in 1908 at the age of 15. That he served on a munitions carrier between NY and England and later in the Royal British Naval Service. That he served on the British bark "Crompton" in 1910. (If these dates are correct, he couldn't have been born in 1899. It will be interesting to see how this birth date stuff works out)

                                        blue skies, -jham #2128

**************************************************************

From Ric

That's apparently where Susan Butler got that strange Royal British Naval Service phrase.  The Public Record Office at Kew in England may have the log of the Crompton.

If the Fred Noonan born in Warren Co. in 1899 is our Fred, it may be that he embellished his background a bit.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:45:03 EDT
From:         Bruce Yoho
Subject:      Magneto wire

I may have misled you some the P-lead is connected to the prymary winding of the coil and this grounding will prevent an induced current in the secondary winding. no spark will be produced for ignition.

The P-lead does not need to be a large wire 20 to 18 gage as it carries 6 volts or less with less than one amp current. Magnetos are users of voltage more than amps.

Another interesting fact why the P-lead should be shielded is Magneto's produce AC current.

I am loseing favor with the P-lead aspect as all the connectors I can locate in books have at least 1/2 to 1 inch of insulation beyond the terminal cap and a spring to make contact with the primary circuit in the magneto. All have a star shaped bottom with a clip type saftey.

I still lean to speaker wire. radios in the early days had a seperate speaker and not intigrated into the radio itself.

Bruce     PS Vern if you need more on Magnetos I could e-mail off line if I have your address.
**************************************************************

From Vern

Belden is a good place to send that cable and connector.  Their's was the only ad I saw in looking through those '30s aviation and radio related journals. Although I saw no specific reference to shielded wire, they were advertisin in the aviation magazines.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:00:14 EDT
From:         Dick Strippel
Subject:      Lambrecht

SEE LAMBRECHT'S REPORT FOR FURTHER INFO. RIC HAS A COPY.  SEE ALSO THE NAVY'S NARRATIVE REPORT.

RIC, IS THERE SOME WAY YOU CAN KEEP THIS SITE UNCLUTTERED WITH STUFF (READ S--T) from PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO DO THE SLIGHTEST REAL RESEARCH?           --dick

***************************************************************

From Ric

Mike Ruiz (linvil@email.msn.com)  has generously offered to email a copy of Lambrecht's report to anyone who wants it.  Just email him directly.

As for keeping the forum uncluttered, I won't post off-topic material but I think that it's important for this forum to be educational as well as productive.
***************************************************************

From Dustoff1

Hi, my first message.  I'm new to the forum.  You're doing great work that is very interesting.  Keep it up.

Ref your comment:  

>It's apparent that we need to get a better handle on
>how fast these guys were going between islands.

I've done some SAR work.  My experience is that we flew at (or slightly above -we did want to get there "sometime this year" afterall) best fuel economy to the site if not a life and death thing to maximize time over the zone.  If time was essential we flew as fast as practical to the site and reduced speed to something reasonable and fuel efficient for the search.  My point is that speeds may have been different (cruise, max endurance, max range, or some combination thereof) for the enroute segments and for time over the target area.  I suspect you've already accounted for this and I just missed it.  If so, my apologies.

Thanks, Dustoff1.
****************************************************************

From Ric

That's good information, but we need to keep in mind that the procedures you followed were the product of many years of SAR research.  There were no such procedures in 1937 and our best indication of the speeds used comes from the kind of analysis of the mission that Randy Jacobson did.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:02:52 EDT
From:         Dick Strippel
Subject:      Lady Be Good

>Another WWII story with very similar scenario was the ditching of a B-17
>bomber in the Pacific Ocean while enroute to Canton Island from Hawaii.

There are also several B-24s that went down and a B-24 that crashed on t/o on Kanton.  Check one or more of the Australian WWII web sites. Offhand, I haven't their addresses, but one can search.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:03:53 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Re: About the forum

Yes, this forum works like it should thanks in no small part to a moderator who stays right on top of it!  I don't know how he finds the time to do it, but we sure appreciate that he does.

Having said that, I'll get on with giving him more stuff for him to deal with!
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:05:40 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Bruce's Pilots

How is the search for the helicopter pilots going?

I bet they will remember the Norwich City.

**************************************************************

From Ric

Still looking.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:03:44 EDT
From:           Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Bones, Kilts and videos


Anything new from Sydney on the bones?

Who is Kilts (re: the bottle)?

Does/can TIGHAR sell any videos taken on Niku?

Thanks, Mike
***************************************************************

From Ric

Looks like the bones didn't go to Sydney.  They may have gone to England. We're checking that.  They may have stayed in Suva at the Central Medical School.  If so, they were probably disposed of as recently as 1991 when the school got rid of all of its bone collection.  We're now trying to find out just how and where that disposal was carried out.

Floyd Kilts was a Coast Guardsman who participated in the disassembly of the Loran station on Gardner in 1946.  In 1960 he told a San Diego newspaper reporter about a conversation he had with an islander on Gardner in which it was alleged that bones believed to be those of Amelia Earhart were found on the island by the British magistrate in the early days of the settlement. That newspaper article was our first indication of what has turned out to be one of our most interesting lines of investigation.  You'll be able to track the whole thing when you receive your Earhart Anthology.  It should arrive in the next day or so.

Videos taken on Niku?  We have miles of tape, some of which we own and some of which belongs to television networks.  Obviously, we can sell our own stuff. It's just a matter of editing together something that is useful to people who are interested in the subject and then setting a price that makes sense.  What sorts of things would you (and others) like to see?
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:18:22 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Radios

So, just to add to the confusion, we have another antenna on the bottom of the Electra.  I had wondered what that was in some of the drawings of the plane. My first thought is: "redundancy."  There was already a "V" antenna on the top.

Maybe someone thought radio communication would be important.  Maybe someone like Paul Mantz (sp).  Redundancy would require alternate transmitting and receiving capability as well as another antenna.  Maybe ALL of the radio transmitters and recievers that have been associated with the Electra were on board on this flight.  If so, that would seem to open up even more possible places for a peice of shielded cable to have been used.
**************************************************************

From Ric

No Vern.  No indication of redundancy.  It's a complex topic.  Radios and antennas came and went from that airplane like customers at a McDonalds.

At the time of the final flight the airplane had three antennas.

1.  A dorsal V reaching from a mast just above and behind the cockpit to each of the two vertical fins.
2.  A ventral wire reaching from the right hand "chin" pitot mast through a mast near the main beam (spar) to a mast under the belly just forward of the cabin door.
3.  A manually rotatable loop (Bendix MN-5?) over the cockpit.

We know that the airplane's transmitter (in the aft cabin) and receiver (under the co-pilot's seat) were separate units.  From the location of the lead ins it would appear that the dorsal V was connected to the transmitter and the belly wire went to the receiver.  Whether the loop went to the same receiver or there was a third dedicated DF radio is unknown.

At the time of the first world flight attempt the airplane had two additional antennas.

4.  A second belly wire paralleling the first but going down the left hand side of the airplane.
5.  A trailing wire antenna deployed from a mast protruding from the underside of the cabin.

Both of these were deleted during the repairs which followed the Luke Field mishap.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:19:17 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      DNA

Anyone who would like to know just a little more about DNA and mtDNA matching, just a little, not much, might be interested in the book "The Quest for Anastasia," by John Klier and Helen Mingay (1995).  The DNA discussion is in about the last 5 pages of Chapter 9.  They were dealing with bones dating from 1918.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:26:49 EDT
From:         Jerry Ellis
Subject:      Coax Cable

In my most recent post I said my colleague would show the picture of the cable in the Sept 30, 1996 Tighar Tracks to an elderly (late seventies) aircraft mechanic/pilot/magneto expert "Skeezix" Adkisson. Skeezix took one look at the photo and said, "It's a radio cable."

If you would like more background on Skeezix to improve your confidence that he is an expert, please ask.   jerry
 --
Jerry W. Ellis                      Carbohydrates, polymers and
Professor of Chemistry              Chemical Education
Department of Chemistry
Eastern Illinois University  

**************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks Jerry, but what will improve my confidence will be a piece of cable of known use (or manufacturer's manual showing same) which can be put beside our artifact and shown to be exactly like it.  Perhaps Skeeziks can point us toward such a cable or manual.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:33:00 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Radios

The frustrating radio question.  Do we have everything it's possible to get from Western Electric and Bendix on radio gear that MIGHT have been on the Electra?  Of course, I'm wishing for information on connectors used, etc. I'm sure I can dig up information on some kinds of radio equipment of the 30s but aircraft radio may be more difficult.

Incidently, any radio reciever would have RDF capability, if it could be connected to a directional antenna such as that loop -- and tuned to a frequency in the range the loop was designed for.

***************************************************************

From Ric

Not according to avionics repairman Frank Lombardo, TIGHAR 1806, who examined the schematic for the WE 20B receiver.  He says it definitely had no DF capability.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:39:11 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Ground Penetrating Radar

What happened with the GPR?  Re: "Hell and High Water"... I presume there was no opportunity to try it.

***************************************************************

From Ric

(sigh) We didn't have Ground Penetrating Radar with us and there is no GPR mentioned in Hell and High Water.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:50:03 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Post-loss radio signals

Among the articles in the Oakland Tribune I found a very interesting one on Earhart radio signals after they disappeared. I don't recall ever seeing this info elsewhere.

        + Oak. Trib, Friday July 9, 1937. An interview with Lieut. Johnson, Coast Guard communications officer, Fort Funston. "We know we picked up signals from the plane on Friday night, Saturday and Sunday - three days running. There is no questioning their authenticity. As the plane could not broadcast even carrier signals from the water, they must have originated from land. On Sunday night, when station KGMB in Honolulu broadcast a request to Miss Earhart to respond if she heard the broadcast by turning on her carrier signal for one minute and then turn it off four times, the response was immediate and as requested. There is no doubting the authenticity of those signals on Sunday night. The Coast Guard station in Honolulu and the Pan-American Airways station picked them up and a triangulation of the carrier waves by high frequency direction finders placed them definitely as originating from the Phoenix Islands." The newspaper report goes on to say, "Lt. Johnson places no credence in the many reported voice messages supposed to have been received by amateur radio stations. Not a single voice message or one tapped out in code has been received by the Navy or CG radio operator since the last message broadcast while Miss Earhart still was in the air."

For what it's worth.  blue skies,  -jham #2128

***************************************************************

From Ric

That is indeed an interesting account.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:26:58 EDT
From:         unknown
Subject:      videos

Ric wrote:

>Obviously, we can sell our own stuff. It's just a matter of editing
>together something that is useful to people who are interested in the subject
>and then setting a price that makes sense.  What sorts of things would you
>(and others) like to see?>>

Ric, I would like to buy the video of you personally discovering AE's Lockheed.  Please let me know when it is ready!

***************************************************************

From Ric

Trust me.

***************************************************************

From Mike Ruiz

Ric, I am interested in any general survey video of Niku, one that would give forum partcipants such as myself a good idea as to: how dense the foliage is, how wide are beaches, how cluttered is the island from previous habitation, good views of the lagoon and reef in question etc.

I realize editing is costly and time consuming, I am interested in whatever you could send out now.

TIGHAR, Unplugged.

I received the Earhart Project Book TIGHAR  produced.  Thanks.  I highly recommend it to forum participants.

And back to videos, if the Sports Illustrated swimsuit team went with any of the expeditions, that's the one I want.

*************************************************************

From Ric

The project book Mike is talking about is the Earhart Project Anthology.

I think a general This Is Nikumaroro sort of video would indeed be useful for those who are interested in the research.  However, at present I'm desperately trying to get the new TIGHAR Tracks written and to the printer.  Then I need to update the website.  I'll get to the video as soon as I can.

Sorry.  The Sports Illustrated swimsuit team passed on our invitation, and the TIGHAR swimsuit team is not much of a substitute.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:47:19 EDT
From:         JBMill
Subject:      The Noonan Project

I have Ann Pellegreno address/phone if it would help-have been out of touch with her but she's an old friend from the 60's.....................

***************************************************************

From Ric

In recent years Ann has become an adherent of the various conspiracy theories and would not, I imagine, think much of our efforts.  If you would like to contact her as an old friend and ask if she has an address or phone number for Fred's first wife, that might be very useful.

***************************************************************

From Bill Briska

Regarding the possible birth place of Mr. Noonan and by way of clarification...Warren County, Illinois is located in west central Illinois, approximately  180 air miles southwest of Chicago.  A rural area, the county's current population is about  22,000. The largest city is Monmouth (population of 11,000 in 1990), which is also the boyhood home of Wyatt Earp.  The largest nearby city is Galesburg, approx pop 35,000 (1990) which is located in next county to the east.  While Warren County is in Chicago's general economic orbit, it is not considered part of the Chicago area.  Rather it is piece of rural Illiniois, farm country both back in the 1880-90's and today.

Bill Briska, #471, (and proud of it)

**************************************************************

From Ric

Good information.  Thanks Bill.

*************************************************************

From Jerry Hamilton

A short Noonan "history" for those not keeping score. This is what we think we know, although most of it still needs verification by marriage certificates, etc.

He was born in 1893 (although our Chicago census data says 1899). He may have 3 sisters and two brothers. He went to sea in 1908 at age 15, after attending Chicago public school and a private academy. It is generally reported that he was a seaman/mariner for 22 years. During this time he supposedly attended the London Nautical College, maybe Weems in Annapolis, and was in the British naval service. He married Josie Sullivan in July, 1927, possibly having children. He was with Pan Am in Miami by 1930 until 1935 (as navigation instructor, pilot, manager of Port Au Prince, and other assignments). He was considered one of the finest navigators around, possibly the finest flying navigator (which was different from sea navigation). He was transferred to Oakland in 1935 and pioneered Pan Am Clipper routes to Manila (first flight Nov. 22, 1935). There is no info so far on whether his first wife came with him (maybe the fact that she is not mentioned at this time tells the story). He left, or was fired, from Pan Am at the end of 1936, start of 1937. He married Mary Martinelli in March. You know the rest. 

TO RON DAWSON:
If you think you can find any divorce records, go for it. Also, if you can, check the El Paso newspaper on or around that date to see if they reported any more than I found in the Oakland Trib. 

TO BARBARA WILEY:
Can you check Noonan's first wife's name based on your reference (you said Katherine, our info says Josie M. Sullivan)? The fact that she lived in Florida makes sense, particularly if it was the Miami area. Can you provide any more detail on where specifically? And any more detail about Fred's kids? Or any more detail about his parents or siblings?

Regarding Mary B's sister Mrs. Gularte. Do you know her name? Did she live in Salinas, or simply somewhere near by? I'll try to contact the son so any more detail you can provide would be useful.

Apologies for all the questions, but you have some interesting new information. You can reach me directly at jham@ccnet.com.

Blue skies, jham #2128
***************************************************************
From Russ Matthews, TIGHAR 0509CE

>Anybody got a copy of Ann Pellegrino's book? 

Yes.  "World Flight: The Earhart Trail" by Ann Holtgren Pellegreno (The Iowa State University Press, 1971).

  The book is a pretty staight foward account of Pellegreno's 1967 commemoration of the Earhart's final flight.  There is no mention of a meeting with Noonan's first wife, but I gather that is supposed to have happened in 1989 - long after the book was published (right, Barbara?)

  Pellegreno is now a staunch supporter of Joe Gervais' theory that AE survived and lived out her life as Irene Bolam.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:53:10 EDT
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Wreck Photo

I have a copy of the book Bill Zorn recommended in an earlier posting - "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" by Rene J. Francillon. I agree with Bill that this is probably the best ref. book on Jap aircraft of this era.

Apart from the Ki-34 & Ki-54, there appear to be no other Japanese contenders for the wreck photo.

Following the lines of Jeff Glickman's method of establishing engine cowl dimensions etc. as a function of prop size, I've applied this method to the 3D silhouettes of the Ki-34 and Ki-54 to arrive at percentage figures for the cowl outer and inner dimensions.

Obviously these figures aren't accurate to many decimal places - the drawings may be subject to errors and my measurements aren't that accurate - I've allowed quite a large error margin of 1% on my measurements. 

From Jeff's wreck measurements:-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Assuming 108" prop,     Outer cowl = 54"    +/- 1.34"
                                Inner cowl = 37.1"  +/- 0.3"

Thus, as a percentage of prop size:-
                                Prop = 100 %
                                Outer cowl = 50.0 %  +/- 1.2 %
                                Inner cowl = 34.4 %  +/- 0.3 %


From My measurements of the Ki-34 "Thora" Silhouette:-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                Prop = 100 %
                                Outer cowl = 43 %  +/- 1 %
                                Inner cowl = 31 %  +/- 1 %


From My measurements of the Ki-54 "Hickory" Silhouette:-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                Prop = 100 %
                                Outer cowl = 48 %  +/- 1 %
                                inner cowl = 32 %  +/- 1 %


From this, I think we can certainly eliminate the Ki-34 from consideration, it's props are simply too big compared to the cowl even after allowing generous error margins.

The Ki-54 is much closer, and although still a couple of percent out perhaps we should not eliminate this yet as a candidate - unless further infomation comes to light - When's the TIGHAR tracks feature on the photo to be published Ric?? I'm just dying to see analysis & better quality/enhanced pictures. I only have the small scan on the web page to work with.

Simon Ellwood   #2120

**************************************************************

From Ric

I agree with you that the Ki-34 is not much of a prospect.

I'm hoping to have TIGHAR Tracks ready for the printer by the end of next week.  It'll take them a couple weeks to produce the finished magazine, then we'll mail it out to the membership.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:57:31 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Cable ID

The photos arrived yesterday and I have sent them on to Ty Sundstrom of Dawn Patrol Aviation, 25000 Road 188, Exeter, CA 93221.  I asked Ty to send his findings directly to you with an information copy to me.  I asked him to identify the cable assembly if possible; to tell what make and model aircraft(s), engine(s), radio component(s), etc. it came from; its function or purpose; where we might obtain additional information and, if he can't be certain of an identification, his best guess.

Exeter is about 10 miles from Visalia (midway between Fresno & Bakersfield).  There has been excessive rain in that area (like most of California) and many roads are flooded.  There could be some delay in the mail being delivered so I wouldn't expect an answer for at least a week.

Hopefully Ty can give us a good answer.  He is certainly the best at this sort of thing that I have even seen.

Dick Pingrey

****************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks Dick.  Standing by.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 06:53:59 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      GPR

Sorry about the confusing reference... "Hell and High Water" indicated to me that there might have been a lot of things you didn't have opportunity do. My question about GPR results from the Sept. 30, 1996 issue, "Aukaraine Survey." Do you expect to be able to have a GPR rig next time?

****************************************************************
From Ric

We're looking inot Ground Penetrating Radar as a possible means of searching for an unmarked grave.  We'll need to be sure that it will do the job and that we can deploy it effectively in that environment.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 06:56:58 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Radios

>Not according to avionics repairman Frank Lombardo, TIGHAR 1806, who examined
>the schematic for the WE 20B receiver.  He says it definitely had no DF
>capability.

No point in arguing RDF technology... AE and Fred were not able to utilize their DF capability, whatever reciever the loop was connected to.

You have Schematics?  Are the connectors called out?  Sometimes they are called out on schematics.  Perhaps more likely on a wiring diagram.  Do you have any of the other documentation -- such as a parts list?

**************************************************************

From Ric

No.  Frank was doing all of that independently and, unfortunately, he is no longer active in the project.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 06:57:52 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Magneto Wire

To Bruce Yoho

Thanks to your information and my own researching of magnetos, I have sufficient understanding for our purposes.  Thanks much!!
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:02:12 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Post-loss radio signals

>Oak. Trib, Friday July 9, 1937. An interview with Lieut. Johnson, Coast
>Guard communications officer, Fort Funston. "We know we picked up signals
>from the plane on Friday night, Saturday and Sunday - three days running....

This is VERY interesting!  I wonder if it can be verified in any way???
**************************************************************

From Ric

That the Coast Guard and others were convinced that they were hearing signals from the Earhart plane is easy to verify.  We have numerous official communications confirming that. The only way I know of to verify whether or not they were right is to find the airplane.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:14:42 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Post loss radio (cont)

Oak. Trib, Friday July 9, 1937... At least it's not a story told long after the fact.  We might hope a Coast Guard radio log might still exist... And a Pan-Am station log?  It would be too much to expect a newspaper article to mention the frequency on which the carrier was detected.

I presume KGMB was (is?) an AM broadcast station.  Would some sort of station log still exist, and might it contain some reference to such an unusual sort of broadcast.  This might indicate whether or not such a thing was actually done.  I can believe that AE and Fred might have been listening to the Honolula station.  It was probably one of very few they could hear hoping to discover whether anyone had noticed they were missing.

There is indication that high-frequency (above AM broadcast band) radio direction finding was problematical in the '30s.  If these events happened at all, we might still question the reliability of triangulation placing the source in the Phoenix Islands.  It would sure be tempting to believe it was for real!
***************************************************************

From Ric

The KGMB exercise is well documented, although the results were not as unambiguous as the article implies.  The Pan Am bearings on suspected signals from Earhart were taken on very weak transmissions and at distances far beyond the designed range of the equipment.  Also, at no time did two stations take bearings on the same signal.

In the end, the post-loss signals are intriguing and tantalizing, but unverifiable.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:17:58 EDT
From:         Don Jordan
Subject:      Cable ID

re Dick Pingrey's expert in Exeter.

I go to Exeter often as I live only 75 mile from there..if that's of any help.

Don
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:30:46 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      This and That

(NOTE from Ric:  Mike has asked a whole bunch of questions which, to save space, I'll answer as we go along.)

QUESTION: What info. do you have on Fox and Short? Are they alive?  Addresses?  Interviews?

ANSWER:  Both dead in the 1970s.  No interviews we know of, although Short wrote a diary-like letter to his father during the search which is very informative and revealing about the attitudes of the pilots toward the operation (Quote: This whole business is certainly a royal pain in the neck...).

QUESTION:  Do you know if Lambrecht was ever interviewed before he died?

ANSWER:  Yes.  Fred Goerner interviewed him on audio tape.  I've never heard the tape or seen a complete transcript.  It may be at the Nimitz Museum in Fredricksburg, Texas which, I understand, got Fred's papers.  Somebody want to check that out?

QUESTION:  What about Noonan's lighter?  First I heard of it reading through the TIGHAR Earhart Anthology you just sent me.

ANSWER:  We don't know that it is Noonan's lighter.  It's probably not Noonan's lighter.  It's a Japanese copy, widely marketed in the U.S. in the mid-1930s, of the Ronson Whirlwind design.  It was found buried in the sand on the island's well-traveled southwestern shore.  We have no photo of Noonan using a lighter.  One photo appears to show him lighting a cigarette with a match.  As an artifact, the lighter seems to be a dead end.

QUESTION:  What ever happened to the search for Seaman 1st Class J. L. Marks, the supposed back seater for Lambrecht?

ANSWER:  Never found him.

QUESTION: You mentioned the Colorado's log. Do you have it?

ANSWER: Yup.  And the log of the Itasca, among others.

QUESTION: Who flew with Fox and Short?  Any attempts to find them?

ANSWER:  Fox's observer was Radioman 3rd Class Williamson.  Short's was a Lt. Chillingworth.  Both are dead.

QUESTION: How about the metal ring supposedly from a clock face?

ANSWER:  It's a bezel ring from a cheap pocket watch attached to which is what appears to be the sort of key you use to open a can of sardines.  Buried in the same section of beach as the lighter.  Wierd, but not exactly diagnostic.

QUESTION: Are there any "hits" that Oceaneering International picked up that a TIGHAR equipped expedition can dive?

ANSWER:  Oceaneering's sonar did not pick up anything worth eyeball investigation.

QUESTION: It appears TIGHAR has searched Ritiati quite well, as that was the site of the village, and, with Yoho's account, a likely place where wreckage could have washed ashore.

ANSWER:  The village area has been fairly well searched but there are some specific sites there that we'd like to do in more detail.

QUESTION: What percentage of Nutiran has TIGHAR searched? Taraia?

ANSWER:  Nutiran, maybe 5 percent.  Taraia, not really at all.

QUESTION: Gilbertese relocation. I know TIGHAR has done some looking in the Solomons. Any other candidates?

ANSWER:  Yes , we've talked to people in the Solomons and , of course, on Funafuti.  We've also interviewed former residents of Nikumaroro who now live in in Tarawa and Kiritimati (Christmas Island).  There are some other folks in Tarawa we'd like to talk to - like the old lady we've heard of who was the wife of the island's native medical practioner and (supposedly) says that she was once shown the grave of a pilot on Gardner.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:34:41 EDT
From:         Jerry Ellis
Subject:      Anthology

What is the cost of the latest version of the Anthology and will a personal check suffice?    jerry

****************************************************************
From Ric

$25.  A personal check will suffice just fine.  Thanks.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:01:50 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz and the No Land Club
Subject:      Lambrecht analysis

Thoughts on the Lambrecht Report:

 We believe the Report indicates a careful, comprehensive search was conducted.

Quote from report: "Visibility and state of the sea as has been noted, were such that it is believed an object on the water even as small as a rubber boat could have been seen a distance of at least five miles and probably further.  Indeed in every instance when the planes were on their return leg the ship was sighted at a distance in excess of thirty miles." 

...extremely good visibility made it highly probable that the missing plane would have been found....

About M'Kean Island:

walls of several old buildings apparently or some sort of adobe con-struction, were still standing

About Gardner:

On the SS Norwich City: She lay high and almost dry head onto the coral beach with her back broken in two places.

The lagoon at Gardner looked sufficiently deep and certainly large enough so that a seaplane or even an airboat could have landed or taken off in any direction with little if any dif-ficulty.  Given a chance, it is believed that Miss Earhart could have landed her plane in this lagoon and swam or waded ashore. In fact, on any of these islands it is not hard to believe that a forced landing could have been accomplished with no more damage than a good barrier crash or a good wetting.

On Hull

noted natives ... waving their loin cloths ...

... small shacks could be seen among the groves of coconut palms,

About Phoenix Island:

... stagnant pool of rusty water ...

... tile stone cairn on the east beach ....

About Canton:

... a careful search was made of the island and its lagoon.

... still remained the shacks and various constructions of the eclipse expedition.

It is clear the flight crew was very observant.  Could they have missed the Electra?  Sure. But not likely.  I believe these searches were careful and considered, not hurried and/or poorly conducted.

If Lambrecht had any reason to land on Gardner (Niku), he would have.

I think Lambrecht very much wanted to find Amelia, as summed in the final line of his report "And it is to be hoped that in the very near future newspapers will ring with the headline, "AMELIA FOUND"."

As we learn more, including yesterdays fairly strong support for radio signals, we think (one of TIGHAR's scenarios) that the plane was landed on the reef flat.  Then the tide took the aircraft. An excellent depiction and picture that details what we are saying, for those interested in studying the details, can be found in the November 1989 TIGHAR TRACKS, Vol. 5, No. 4. This is in the Earhart Project Book.

With radio signals ceasing late  4 July, the aircraft was swept away between late 4 July and 9 July.

It may or may not have left an engine on the reef on the way out.

Over the years, the engine, and parts seen by the natives, were washed back up from the ocean.  Debris may have been caught in crevices on the reef wall dropping down, only to be returned to Niku by nature over time.

This is what we think, and this is why Lambrecht did not see any evidence of an Electra on Niku.

It wasn't there.

****************************************************************

From Ric

Your scenario is attractive for several reasons:

1.  It explains why Lambrecht and company saw no airplane.
2.  It explains why the New Zealand survey party that spent Dec. 1938/Jan. 1939 mapping Nutiran district did not see an airplane.
3.  It explains why the more credible of the post-loss radio messages ceased at midnight on 4 July.
4.  It explains why the castaway campsite found by Gallagher in 1940 was so sparse.
5.  It explains why island residents in later years saw wreckage on the reef and up in the treeline on Nutiran and Taraia.
6.  It explains why Bruce's engine was there.

The only problem I have with it is the notion that the action of the surf sucked the airplane seaward rather than driving it up up onto beach. When we were there in '91 we tried an experiment where we placed a semi-buoyant object (a weighted buoy) fairly far out on the reef-flat at low tide.  When the tide came in, the thing traveled exclusively shoreward.

Maybe I would just rather hope that we have a nice big hunk of wreckage buried in the bushes on Nutiran than think that all we can expect to find is shards buried in the beach.  That darn wreck photo is so enticing.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:07:49 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Zapruder film

Several years ago, an attorney named Posner wrote a book on the Kennedy assasination called "Case Closed".   One item I noted with interest was what Posner was able to do with the Zapruder film.  Modern, recently developed photographic enhancements enabled observations to be made that were not previously possible.

Have there been any leaps in technology in the last few years that may apply to a re-analysis of the Oceaneering sonar data?

Has TIGHAR already beat this one to death?  Have you gotten 2nd and 3rd opinions on the readouts?

If Lambrecht can miss an Electra, Oceaneering can miss a shaded pixel.

***************************************************************

From Ric

Tough question.  Oceaneering still has the raw data but we own it so we could certainly get it..  Analysis, however, is expensive (too expensive).  We'd need someone who had the knowledge and the software and the time to tackle the job for free.  Know anybody like that?
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:11:54 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Coax/shielded cable

Re:  ARRL Handbook, etc.   The Amateur Radio area seemed a good place to look for what was being used for connection to antennas in the mid '30s. The hams were quick to pick up whatever was the latest thing in radio technology.  I didn't find an old ARRL Handbook but I do have access to QST back at least as far as 1920.  They may even go back to the "spark transmitter" days!

All the way up to 1940 I find no indication of the use of co-ax for antenna connection.  It's all open, parallel-wite transmission lines, usually 600 ohm.  Or it's just a single conductor to the antenna and an earth connection.

Today, I visited a local group involved in restoring a couple of old airplanes. They have a "Connie" and a Martin-404 in progress right now... And they have quite a collection of old stuff including some radio gear.

The few radio transmitters and receivers I could find that were of about the right vintage had no connectors of the kind on the TIGHAR cable.  The connections were all the single-conductor, "binding-post" sort.  A binding-post for the antenna and one for a "ground" connection to the aircraft.

There were no engines of the right sort to look for possible places for the cable in the magneto wiring.  The more recent engines certainly had no such connectors or cables.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:23:01 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

We certainly have alot to work with, but the key words here are, "most of it still needs verification"...  The six year age difference is what's bothering me.  Some of the other math is alittle odd too... Jerry has been putting his eyes out reading tiny print on Oakland Tribune microfilm, and this is providing us with some good starting points.  We certainly know more about Fred than we did a few weeks ago. But we still have many conflicting names, dates, and ages, as well as many "unquestioned" references.  Not meaning to be a wet blanket..., just think it important that the many folks out there reading the forum still understand that very little is yet, "carved in stone".

Jerry:   Is Oakland in San Francisco County? If so can you look up and send me the mailing address for the County Clerk's Office?  Thanks. Really appreciate all your help!

Sandy #2110
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:48:45 EDT
From:         Debbie Hitchens
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Oakland is in Alameda County, I don't remember which one San Fran is in.  (I spent 5 years in that area, including the earthquake in '89)

Debbie Hitchens
***************************************************************

From Tom Roberts #1956

Oakland is in Alameda County.  Their Home Page is: 
http://www.co.alameda.ca.us/welcome.htm
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:52:45 EDT
From:         Wiley Rollins
Subject:      The Noonan Project

I'm only 30 miles from Fredericksburg, TX and the Nimitz Museum, which incidentally is quite a place, so I'll look for Fred's papers.

Wiley #2090
****************************************************************

From Ric

Cool.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:02:39 EDT
From:         Ann
Subject:      The Noonan Project

I assume from the comments AE made in LAST FLIGHT about Noonan's accidents, March 1937 might be a good starting point.

Ann#2101
***************************************************************

From Ric

We know (from a newspaper article Jerry Hamilton found) that one accident happened on April 4, 1937 in Fresno, CA.  Fred and Mary Bea were married in Yuma, AZ on March 27th.  They lived in Oakland.  Seems likley that the accident in Fresno happened when they were on there way home from the wedding/honeymoon.  It was a head-on collision but they must not have been going very fast.  Fred got a skinned hand.  Mary Bea cut her knee and scalp. The other car was driven by a woman with an infant.  They received minor cuts and bruises.  Fred was cited for driving in the wrong lane.

Questions:  What day of the week was it when they were married and when the accident happened?  How long did it take to drive from Yuma to Oakland in 1937?
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:24:15 EDT
From:         Ann
Subject:      The Noonan Project

according to the reference source CALENDAR FOR 250 YEARS,1753 to 2002, March 27,1937 = saturday and April 4,1937= sunday.

Ann #2101

**************************************************************
From Ric

Makes sense.  They get married in Yuma on a Saturday, take a one week honeymoon, and are driving home to Oakland on the following Sunday when the accident happens.  Based on this admittedly scant and speculative evidence I'd say that fatigue, rather than booze, was the most likely cause.

****************************************************************
From Ann

Yuma to Oakland is 652 miles with a 1990's driving time of 9:48.(according to a driving atlas) I'm still trying to research the driving speeds in the 1930s...if there were any.
Ann#2101
***************************************************************
From Ric

That's a tough kind of number to come up with. You usually have to rely upon anecdotal recollections.  For example:  In the early 1950s my family used to occasionally drive from upstate NY to central Florida, a distance of roughly a thousand miles.  It took three days of daytime travel.  Today, if you have the will and the bladder, you can do it in about 24 straight hours.

My guess would be that to come up with a 1937 driving time for a trip like Yuma to Oakland you probably need to at least double the 1990s figure.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:25:21 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Ric -- remember that the Nimitz Museum is where the engine is that supposedly someone thought was Amelia's but that turned out to be Japanese.  I had some correspondence with the curator and thought I'd get there this month, but my class in Ft. Worth has been cancelled so I won't.  I'll try to find the name of the curator and pass it on before I but out of here.

TK
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:36:41 EDT
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      The Noonan Project

I'll give these two articles verbatim - you can delete whatever you think is irrelevant.

from: El Paso Times, March 14, 1937: 

F.J.Noonan, veteran flier, selected Saturday by Amelia Earhart Putnam to be her navigator on the first two legs of her round-the-world flight, left El Paso about a week ago after a 10-day visit here. Howard Archer, 1140 Rio Grands, with whom Noonan often visited as he stayed at the Hilton Hotel, said Saturday night that Noonan is accredited as being one of the foremost aerial navigators of the world. According to a United Press bulletin from Oaklnad, Caif., Noonan, chosen in a surprise move by Mrs. Putnam, will leave the plane at Howland Island, the first stop after Honolulu. "Noonan has had a colorful career", Archer related. "His father was chief of Secret Service in Chicago, and later was transferred to London. While in London, the son became a lieutenant in the British Navy. Later, aviation attracted him. "He was the first navigator on the Miami-Buenos Aires run, and continued in this capacity when Pan American Airways took over this route. Later he was appointed Caribbean manager for Pan-American, stationed at Port-Au-Prince, Haiti. Transferred again to Alameda Airport, he was the original navigator to fly to Honk Kong when the line was extended there". Archer said. Mrs. Putnam was expected to start her journey Sunday night.

from: El Paso Times, March 16, 1937: 

Frederick J. Noonan, 42, Oakland, Calif., veteran trans-Pacific flyer, who will accompany AE on her round-the world flight, has filed suit for divorce from his wife, Mrs. Josie M. Sullivan Noonan, in the Juarez Civil Court, it was learned Monday. The divorce suit was filed March 3 by Noonan's attorney, Salvador Franco Urias. The divorce decree will be granted on mutual consent grounds within three weeks, court attaches said. The couple was married in Jackson, Miss. July 11, 1927. Noonan came to El Paso two weeks ago to sign his divorce papers, and to establish his residence in Juarez. After the completion of the round-the world-flight, Noonan will come to El Paso, he notified his attorney. Noonan, until a month ago, was employed by Pan-American Airways. He was navigation officer on the pioneering flight made by the Pan-American Clipper from Alameda, Calif. to Manila in 1935. Before taking up aviation, Noonan was master mariner, with 22 years of ocean navigation. Noonan ran away from home in 1908, at the age of 15, and went around Cape Horn seven times, three times in a windjammeer. During the World War, Noonan served as a munitions carrier between New York and England. Noonan will be Miss Earhart's relief navigator.

Ron Dawson

***************************************************************

From Ric

I have deleted nothing from Ron's post.  This is excellent stuff with some new leads to follow.  Way to go Ron!
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:02:21 EDT
From:         Chris Greenberg
Subject:      Satellite Imagery

I don't know what use this may be as I've not had time to thoroughly research it, but on the Central Intelligence Agency's website, they have an area listing some additional links;  one of which being 'Samples of Recently Declassified Satellite Imagery at the United States Geological Survey World Wide Web Site'.

It allows you to search by Geographic Coverage and/or Acquisition Date.  Moreover, once a specific target has been identified, and the search finished, it gives detailed information on the search results, including but not limited to the acquisition date, the camera type, image type, polarity, camera resolution, etc.  Additionally, areas can be searched using the exact latitude and longitude coordinates.

The address for the US Geological Survey website is:

http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/dclass/dclass.html

The link from this page to the actual GLIS page, where the search parameters are requested and the search is conducted is:

http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/Webglis/glisbin/search.pl?DISP

Hope this helps.  I'll be checking it out further later in the week and if you can give me latitude and longitude of Howland I'll check.

Thanks and good luck to all.

Chris Greenberg-
***************************************************************

From Ric

I think that Mike Ruiz has a handle on this source (right Mike?).  Howland is of little interest to us.  We're pretty sure she's not there.  Niku is at 4 degrees 40 minutes South, 174 degrees 32 minutes West.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:23:11 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Tax Deductions

I assume that all our efforts on behalf of TIGHAR are tax deductible (including car milage, copy expenses, telephone expenses, etc). As long as we keep good records. Correct?

                                Blue skies, jham #2128

**************************************************************

From Ric

Excellent point.  Yes.  TIGHAR is a 501 (c) (3) public charity.  Any money you spend supporting the organization or its work is tax deductible "within the limits of the law" (as they say). Anytime you send money to TIGHAR we send you an official receipt which you can use for tax purposes.

Money you spend doing research is also deductible. Check with your tax preparer (as they also say) but mileage, phone calls, postage, motel rooms, etc. etc. fall into this category.  Be prepared to document everything you claim.

Two caveats.  You can't charge for your time, and trips that you take for TIGHAR research must not include a "significant element of personal enjoyment."  No kidding.  That's what the law says.  Fortunately, as team members can verify, that is seldom a problem on TIGHAR expeditions.

So everybody get out there and research, research, research.  Just be sure not to have any fun doing it.  Is this a weird country or what?
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:33:14 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Lambrecht Report

I'm happy to report that many requests have been made for an e-mail copy of the Lambrecht Report.

Please post that I responded to everyone who requested a copy.

If you requested a copy, and did not get one from me, please ask again.

I may have missed you or gotten your e-mail address wrong due to the large number of responses I have made.

Love to mother

***************************************************************

From Ric

When we get our act together here we'll be mounting a great many such sources on the website.  We'll charge a nominal fee for downloading as is customary in the sientific/historical community. We may also do an Amelia Earhart Research CD.  No, this will not be the team members singing all the songs from the Niku expeditions.  It would be all of the many, many original documents pertaining to the case that we have assembled over the past ten years. And speaking of documents.  Effective today we're bumping the price for the Earhart Project Anthology from $15 to $25.  Fifteen bucks just doesn't cover the cost of printing out, handling and mailing the 50-some page compilation of all of the Earhart Project articles that have appeared in TIGHAR Tracks.  If your order is already in, don't sweat it.  You're grandfathered.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:36:26 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Niku, Kanton or both?

Are you planning for joint Niku/Kanton mission, or one of the two?

Mike
***************************************************************

From Ric

Another trip to Kanton may happen later this year if we can arrange for some kind of digging equipment.  We're presently investigating possibilities.

NIKU IIII is now scheduled for September/October of 1999.

We would probably not do a combined expedition.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:41:31 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Coax/shielded cable

I hope Belden may be able to at least date that cable.  We're sure having no luck with finding a place for it on AE's Electra.  I continue to think the connection from the loop antenna to the RDF reciever may be the best remaining  possibility.

Thinking RDF in general:  I wonder if that antenna we know nothing about (the one that may have been lost on takeoff from Lae) might have been related to the RDF reciever.  An essentially omni-directional antenna is often used along with a loop to resolve the "double null" problem -- is it ahead or behind?  The two antenna arrangment can be tuned up to produce a single null as the loop is rotated.

So they may have lost that antenna, they could still have used the loop and found Howland -- if either had known how to use RDF.  When you can move about, as an aircraft centainly can, you can resolve the "double null" ambiguity.  You just need two RDF bearings.  Ideally, you would get one bearing then make a 90 degree turn and fly untill you could could get a significantly different bearing.  When near the transmitter, you wouldn't have to go far.  Plot the two bearings and they cross at the transmitter location.  Then you just fly that LOP until you get to the transmitter. It's Ironic, and sad, to think how easily AE and Fred could have found Howland if they had only known a little abour RDF technology.  They could have flown right to the Itasca, with or without an omini-directional antenna to resolve the "double null" ambiguity.

RDF technology working well in the mid-30s.  I noticed an article in an issue of "Aero Digest" from the early 30s about experimental evaluation of RDF by Pan Am (I think) on flights from California to Hawaii.  There was a diagram of positions as determined by RDF along the way.  A California station was used about half-way, then they switched to a station in Hawaii. The RDF points were very close to being on-course at both ends. There may have been a 50-mile wide error band about half-way.  An average line through the points would have been almost exactly on-course.

***************************************************************

From Ric

I spoke with the people at Belden yesterday.  So far they have determined that the inner layer of insulation is too deterioriated to test to see whether it is rubber or plastic.  They're now working on the outer layer and should be able to make that determination.  If the outer layer turns out to be rubber, it would be very unusual for the inner layer to be plastic.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:44:20 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      RDF playtime

Rather off-topic but maybe interesting to some.  It accured to me that a little transistor radio would be a pretty good RDF reciever for the AM broadcast band. Being very much an experimentalist (tinkerer!), I decided to see how well it might work.  Of course, I had to deal with the "double-null" ambiguity.

I rubber-banded the little radio on one end of a 1" by 4" about 18" long and a magnetic compass, no more than a toy, on the other end.  There's a pretty strong magnet in the radio speaker, had to get the compass away from that.

Choosing an AM radio station I was pretty sure was somewhere west of me. I went out in the yard and took a compass bearing on it by rotating the whole rig until I got a null in the signal.

Then I drove south about 30 blocks and did it again.  The bearing was definitely different.  For good measure, I went another 30 blocks south and took a third bearing.  Again different.

I plotted the three LOPs on a city map.  They did NOT all intersect at one point, but did box in a triangular area to the west.  Then I headed to that area I found the antenna and it was, at least, inside the boxed in area!  I think I can say I'd located the antenna within about 5 blocks. Not bad for such a crude rig and without taking great care to ge the best possible bearings.

A thing to be aware of, if anyone should care to play around with this sort of thing:  All radios such as this incorporate an "automatic gain control" circuit. This tends to work against getting a null.  The thing keeps increasing gain to try to keep the sound at a constant level.  With a moderately strong signal, you can't detect a null.  You have to either select a weak signal, or de-tune the radio to, in effect, reduce signal strength.  This does not effect directivity of the built-in antenna, which behaves very much like AE's loop antenna.

It's a simple matter to observe how this works using any station of known location.  But keep in mind that the transmitter and antenna may not be a the location of the studio which is probably what will show in the phone book.  You might have to call and ask about antenna location.

*************************************************************

From Ric

That's our Vern.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:53:16 EDT
From:         unknown
Subject:      Digest access

a friend & I wish to receive back issues of  EARHARTFORUM digest (but not all at once)---what is the procedure?? 

Have there really been 75 issues of the digest??????????????---regards
**************************************************************

From Ric

Everything that has appeared on the forum is archived and accessible.  We'll be putting out a posting which explains exactly how to get at it (just as soon as we figure it out here).  Should have it for everyone in the next few days. There's a new digest each day so I guess there have been at least 75 issues.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:01:33 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Regarding driving time in the '30s..., my mother recalls riding from San Antonio, TX to Brownsville, TX in mid '30s and her cousin would hang his hat over the speedometer, so her grandmother couldn't see how fast they were going.... ~60s.  That was in a newer 1932 Ford.

Newly weds, after a honeymoon might have had more than fatigue or booze to distract them, too.... <g>

Sandy #2110

**************************************************************

From Ric
Now what could distract a guy enough to make him drift into the wrong lane? Is this off topic?
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:06:35 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

NOTE:   March 1937 FN, age 42..........................1937-42=1895
        "Ran away" 1908 age 15.........................1908-15=1893
     ** Only FN listed in May 1900 IL age 5 months.....1900-~1=1899
(** others possible, though)

I think we're getting close!!

Sandy

***************************************************************

From Ric

Looks to me like all the contemporaneous sources are supporting a circa 1894 birth date which means either:

a.  The 1899 Fred Noonan is a different guy.
b.  Fred was consistent in representing his age to be 5 or 6 years greater than it actually was.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:18:23 EDT
From:         Jerry Ellis
Subject:      Coax/shielded cable

Looking back over my collection of TIGHAR earhartforum posts I noticed the "Bob" (Possible breakthrough" post) reported that an old friend identified the cable as magneto cables.  My guy Skeezix says they are radio cables!  Skeezix is known to be uninterested in radios but is supposed to be a world class expert on magnetos.  He also claimed the the Scintilla mags were the only ones used on radial engines.  So we have an "expert" on both sides of the cable!  Meanwhile I have located another local "expert" whose main interest is radios and I'm trying to set up a time to see what he can tell me and more importantly, if he has old manuals with with to document what he claims or whatever.  --working when I can--   jerry
--
Jerry W. Ellis                      Carbohydrates, polymers and
Professor of Chemistry              Chemical Education
Department of Chemistry
Eastern Illinois University
***************************************************************

From Ric

There seems to be nothing more common than conflicting expert opinion.  That's why it's so important thant we find a manual or, even better, a physical example.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:24:53 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Having been born in 1932 I can recall doing a lot of traveling with my parents during the late 1930s and early 1940s.  Most highways at that time would support speeds of 50 to 60 mph.  I would suspect 55 mph might be a good average for highway speed in 1937 but there were few town that were bypassed so the average must come down to 50 mph in my estimation.  Sixty mph is a mile per minute, add about 20% for a speed of 50 mph and you should be close.

As a retired Pan Am pilot I belong to several organizations of retired Pan Am employees.  I could probably post a request to see if any living and retired Pan Am people have any first hand information on Fred Noonan.  What specifics are we looking for and is this worth trying?  There are other, much earlier Pan Am people such as Bill Moss who may have better ideas.  I didn't join Pan Am until 1967.

Dick Pingrey

***************************************************************

From Ric

Accepting your speed/time estimates, my very rough guess is that Yuma to Oakland in 1937 was something like a 15 hour drive.  Tempting to try in one day, but a hard grind.

We've never talked to anyone who flew or worked with Fred Noonan, so it's probably worth trying to see if such a person is around.  We did interview Francis "Fuzz" Furman back in 1989, I think it was.  He was the Martin Co. field rep. in Bandoeng, Java.  The Royal Netherlands East Indies Air Force had a bunch of B-10s and Fuzz was babysitting them.  AE and Fred stayed in Bandoeng for several days in late June and some amintenance was done on the Electra.  Fuzz helped out with that.  He spent quite a bit of time with Fred, including after hours around town.  He is adamant that Fred never took a drink, even when they visited bars and he himself would have a drink.  He says that Fred always carried his chronometer in his pocket and was very concerned to check its accuracy at every opportunity.

Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:49:45 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Satellite Imagery


I'll check with the Imagery Division of the No Land Club. Last I heard we still had resolution problems. I'll see if they researched this particular site.

The O3u-3 division continues to analyze airspeed.

I wandered over to the Newport News Mariners Museum to find maps; instead found a catalog source on the Norwich City reporting 7 lives lost, not 11.

By the way, we are now the No Land Club*. The * reluctantly admits the Electra could have been missed by Lambrecht.

.001% chance.

With warmest regards.........
***************************************************************

From Ric

So noted.  Our sources for the Norwich City casualties are contemporaneous Times (London) articles and, more significantly, the proceedings of the court of inquiry in Samoa which followed the disaster.  The men lost were:

J.W. Horne, third engineer, of Sandringham St., Hull
T.E. Scott, fourth engineer, of Hurworth St., West Hartlepool
J.I. Jones, steward, of Cogan, Cardiff
F. Sumner, seaman, of Clarence Ave., Hull
J. Leslie, carpenter, of Hull (don't have a street for him)

plus 6 "Arab firemen" who were not individually named (they were foreign, you know).

The bodies of Mr. Jones, Mr. Leslie and one of the "Arabs" washed ashore and were buried on the island by the survivors.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:52:32 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Kanton

Are you thinking air or sea for Kanton?

Mike
***************************************************************

From Ric

Depends. The transport of digging equipment would have to be by sea unless we get military (read C-130) help.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:59:18 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Smithsonian Expedition

Any details on the Smithsonian visit to Niku?

Mike

**************************************************************
From Ric

Yeah.  We have a detailed report on the kinds of flora and fauna they encountered.  The bird guy who was there - Roger Clapp - now works for Fish & Wildlife and has an office in the National Museum Natural History on the Mall. We have copies of the photos he took while he was there.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:14:57 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Plexiglas

Have the Kanton/Sydney aircraft sources been eliminated as potential sources for the plexiglas? Mike

**************************************************************

From Ric

We're quite sure that the Sydney wreck was B-24D and that type has been eliminated as a source for the plexi fragment found on Niku.  We have not checked the many other types that have frequented Kanton over the years. (That would be quite a job.)

We have no indication that aircraft debris of any kind ever migrated from Kanton to Niku (except for a couple of aluminum scraps brought to the Loran station for a misguided watchband-making project).  Conversely, we have found at least three pieces of airplane debris in the abandoned village which we know came from a B-24D.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:31:20 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Lambrecht Interview

TIGHAR member Jim Sivright lives not far from the Nimitz Museum in Fredricksburg, TX and will be trying to locate the interview Fred Goerner did with John Lambrecht.  Any TIGHAR member wishing to help Jim should coordinate with him directly via email at: Sivright@ultravision.net 

The following is the museum's reply to Jim's initial inquiry about the Goerner papers.
***************************************************************
From: "Admiral Nimitz Museum" <nimitzm@ktc.com>
Subject: Re: Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 11:33:38 PDT

Mr. Sivright,

We do have Fred Goerner's library and all his interviews and research files.  We have not been able to catalog the entire collection yet so do not have a good list of the taped interviews.  There is a full box of them however. We do not have staff to assist remotely located researchers at this time.  We have had several individuals and groups come here to use the Goerner collection and it is available for that purpose with advance notice.

There are five file drawers filled with his correspondence, two boxes of tapes and more than 900 volumes in his collection.

Hope this is of some help.

Paula Ussery
Curator
830-997-4379  ext. 224
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:13:39 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Coax/shielded cable

Any luck with those antique radial experts from the Web addresses?

                                                Blue skies, jham #2128
*************************************************************

From Ric
Haven't had time to chase 'em.  I'm hoping that the physical inspection by the peope at Belden will help us define the cables better.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:21:03 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Niku video

In addition to the general look at conditions on Niku already suggested, I think we would all like to have a good look at the camp-fire site, the locations where Gallagher (or whomever) is believed to have found the bones and other stuff, and where TIGHAR, later, found other things.  I'm sure we can think of much more as we continue to study what has happened thus far on the project.
***************************************************************

From Ric

For those of us who have been there it's hard to imagine what those of you who haven't been there see your mind's eye when we talk about various parts of the island.  For us, it's a personal memory.  You are forced to draw upon your own experiences whether that be visits to tropical atolls or watching reruns of Gilligan's Island.  A video would help.  It's just a matter of finding the time to put it together.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:25:32 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      AE paying the bills!

Leafing through some of the ads in a 1937 issue of Aero Digest. ... There was Amelia looking out of the page at me!

An ad for Walter Kidde & Company -- "LUX" Airplane Fire System (Extinguisher) I think it was the March, 1937 issue.  Who knows when the ad was written.

Inset picture of a cylindrical object...

       **********************************************************
"This little cylinder
     SAVED MY
Round-the-World PLANE,"
 says Amelia Earhart

A Close Call at Tucson

"On May 21st the left motor of my Lockheed Electra caught fire at Tucson Airport," writes Amelia Earhart.  "For a minute it looked as if the ship was doomed.  A couple of portable extinguishers seemed ineffective.  I got back into the cockpit, pulled the Lux release, and the threatening fire was killed almost instantly."

"Incidently, you will be interested to know that on my equatorial flight I took along two spare Lux cylinders -- Just in case.  Carrying this 36 lbs. of extra dead-weight is a real testimonial of what I think of Lux."

A Lux Fire System is operated at the pilot's seat.  It floods the engine compartment with carbon-dioxide snow-and-gas, killing fire in 3 seconds. Effective at top flying speeds.  Harmless, non-corrosive.

                           End of ad.

              ************************************

There's also a small copy of that picture of AE with arms extended to touch the tips of the two props of the Electra.

The ad reads as though the Round-the-World flight was an accomplished fact. A little premature.  So much for the writers of advertising copy.
****************************************************************

From Ric

We have a copy of that ad. She also did an ad for Horlich's Malted Milk Balls. Whatever.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:44:28 EDT
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Smithsonian Expedition

Forgive me, but this is the first I've heard of an Smithsonian Expedition to Niku Island.   A few questions please:

1.  What was the purpose of the expedition?
2.  How many people and  how long were they on the island?
3.  Were they briefed on the Earhart Project?
4.  Were they cooperative with the Earhart Project?
5.  What information, if any, did they develop which might be of assistance to the Earhart Project?

Thanks,
Roger Kelley
#2112

***************************************************************

From Ric

1.  There were 4 visits.  1963 (before the last colonists were evacuated), 1966 (sfter the last colonists were gone), 1971 (at the beginning of SAMTEC), and 1975 (near the conclusion of SAMTEC).  the purpose, in each case, was to observe and catalog the the bird and plant life on the island.  The islands of the Phoenix Group were aknowledged to be unique as relatively untouched tropical atolls.  When the U.S. government took an interest in the islands for possible military purposes after the British/Gilbertese colonists were removed. there was a great deal of concern that the environment not be harmed. Naturalists at the Smithsonian and at Cambridge University in England saw this as a chance to do some really neat field studies at DoD expense.

2.  Typically, the teams comprised 3 or 4 scientists and lasted from one to three or four days.

3. & 4.  Of course, this was all long before the Earhart Project.

5.  None to speak of, except in the most general sense of describing the island environment.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:54:39 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      RDF Trivia

More leafing through 1937 issues of Aero Digest...  I see loop antennas by Bendix and Western Electric.  WE offers a loop... "for use with Model 14 and 20 type receivers."

Bendix offers a direction finder loop. "...designed to operate in conjunction with Bendix Type RA1 reciever, but will also give accurate and dependable bearings when used with any standard radio receiver covering the desired frequency range.  They may be used as fixed-loop homing devices or as navigational direction finding instruments within the frequency range of 200-1500 kcs."

Reading several articles on the sobject, I get the impression that it was usual not to bother with the second antenna to resolve the double-null problem.  You just flew around a bit to see where two RDF bearings intersected.  That may be because the second antenna is a bit tricky to tune up so you are sure of a good bearing.  Keep it simple.  I'll vote for that every time.

I think this is indicating that there is no guessing what kind of radio receivers may have been on the Electra on the second attempt.  The Bendix loop doesn't necessarily imply a Bendix RDF receiver.  The loop may very well have been switchable to the WE 20B receiver.
 These are shielded loops.  That may imply that a shielded lead would probably be used from the loop to the reciever.  But I can't find a receiver that seems to have a Jones type co-ax connector for antenna input.

Everything I'm seeing in 1937 still has a simple "binding-post" connector for the antenna.  IF the loop had a co-ax connector one could still use that kind of cable by hooking the center conductor to the antenna binding-post and connecting the shield to the "ground" binding-post... no connector on that end.  But that seems to say you have the remains of two different cables.

If someone had rigged up a switch to change from the general purpose antenna to the loop...  Who knows?
***************************************************************

From Ric

That's a pretty good summary of the situation.  We're sure that the loop on the airplane was a Bendix product because we have a photo that shows the name. But, as you say, that doesn't mean that it was attached to a Bendix radio.

One big debate we've had is whether the belly wire antenna (the one we think was lost on takeoff from Lae) was a sense antenna for the RDF or whether it was the antenna for the WE 20 B receiver (meaning that the dorsal V served both the transmitter and the receiver).  I favor the former possibility for these reasons:

1.  The lead in for the dorsal V enters the cabin near the transmitter.  the lead in for the belly wire enters the cabin under the co-pilots seat where the receiver is supposed to be.
2.  Loss of the voice receiving antenna on takeoff elegantly explains why AE was unable to receive any transmission from Itasca except on the one occasion when she switched to the loop.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:59:46 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Aircraft costs

I think you wrote DOD rate is $6,500 an hour.  How much was the Gulfstream?

Mike
***************************************************************

From Ric

The cost of the Gulfstream I charter, Honlulu to Honolulu, was $40,000.  The estimated cost of an Air National Guard C-130 was around $120,000.  The estimated cost of a civilian chartered C-130 (Southern Air Transport) was $200,000.  (Checks can be made payable to TIGHAR.)
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:08:11 EDT
From:         Ruiz
Subject:      USS Electra

I read where you discussed the potential of the Electra floating some distance if it set sail.

How far off the coast of Niku did Oceaneering search?

Mike
***************************************************************
From Ric

Not very.  We only had enough cable to go to 2,000 feet and you get that kind of depth within a few hundred yards of the reef edge.  BUT, if debris from a busted-up Electra washed ashore, that means that the sunken airplane was in shallow enough water to be influenced by wave action, and that puts in too close to the reef for Oceaneering to have seen it.  However, that was the realm that our 1989 scuba team attempted to cover.  They saw zippo.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:28:36 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Artifact 2-2-V-1

You mentioned artifact 2-2-V-1 was tangled with an aviation fairlead wire (30 inch/22 gauge single filament copper wire) with remnants of rubber insulation.

Was the fairlead wire discounted as an artifact?

What about the broken 1930's style aviation radio face plate?

FYI: Noted in the paper that Ballard is setting out for a month to Midway to search for the USS Yorktown.

Mike
***************************************************************
From Ric

Turns out that "fairlead" is a misnomer.  It may have been a lead-in wire but it's too generic to say anything much about it for sure.  It could have just a been a hunk of wire that happened to get tangled on the aluminum.

The "radio face plate" had a fitting on it that turned out to be non-aviation. It's probably from a generator associated with the Loran station.

As for finding the Yorktown, forgive me, but I don't see the point (except to get good visuals for National Geo).
***************************************************************
From Mike

Does artifact 2-2-V-1 indicate which direction it was forcibly removed?  If the wreck photo is the Electra, it would seem it would have been removed from the inside of the plane, unless the plane in the photo left its undercarriage behind on its way to its final resting place or was at one point in time on both landing gear.

Anyways, it seems that 2-2-V-1 is solid evidence that indicates the plane is/was on land (ouch).

Mike
***************************************************************
From Ric

We're still in a quandry over our old friend 2-2-V-1.  We thought we had its location nailed as part of a patch installed during the repairs which followed the Luke Field crash.  But recently we analyzed a photo taken in San Juan, Puerto Rico on June 3, 1937 which shows an unusually good view of the belly in the suspect location.  No dice.  We don't see the rivet pattern that would have to be there if that's where 2-2-V-1 came from.  Damn.  Back to the blueprints.

Wherever the thing came from, it failed from the inside toward the outside of the airplane through the sudden application of a very powerful fluid force (such as a volume of water).  If it came from anywhere on the belly of the airplane, the landing gear would have to be down when the wave(s) caused the damage.  The airplane in the wreck photo also shows evidence of damage by a fluid force such as water.  The undamaged left hand prop clearly indicates that the gear is down.

So, yes, you're right.  If 2-2-V-1 is from the Electra it is evidence that the airplane was, if not necessarily on land, at least supported on its gear and close enough to land for the ripped off piece to wash ashore.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:37:28 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Harry Maude

You mentioned Harry Maude was skeptical AE/FN were on Gardner.  Did you interview him also?  What sources did you check re: JL Marks?

Mike
***************************************************************

From Ric

I knew I shouldn't have sent you that anthology.

Yes, we've corresponded with Harry several times and just this past December a TIGHAR member interviewed him in Australia.  Harry didn't think AE and FN could have perished on Gardner because the island is so lush and it's so easy to survive there.  Besides, if they did die there their remains would have been found and everyone in the Colonial Service would have known about it.  As you can guess, Harry was somewhat astonished to learn of the Tarawa File which proves that someone did fail to prosper when marooned on Gardner, and that all of this happened in 1940/41 right under his nose and he never knew a thing about it (because it was declared secret).

Re J. L. Marks:  I honestly don't recall where we tried to find him.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:40:20 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      RNZAF

Any luck contacting RZNAF about an overflight?  Mike

***************************************************************

From Ric

New initiatives like that are going to have to wait until I get this new issue of TIGHAR Tracks written and to the printer.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:44:29 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

To Dick Pingrey:

If you're able to contact some of the retiree organizations, it might also be helpful to inquire about where one might write for "archived?" personnel records. I recently located one address in Miami, but I suspect it is more connected to their Chapter 11 proceedings.  Thanks.

Sandy #2110
**************************************************************

From Ric
The old Pan Am records, such as they are, are at the University of Miami. I've looked through the finder's guide but I don't see anything that looks like personnel records.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:00:46 EDT
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Re: AE paying the bills!

Vern said.....

>There's also a small copy of that picture of AE with arms extended to touch
>the tips of the two props of the Electra.

Gotta feeling I'm about to ask a real stupid question.......

How does a five feet something lady touch more than ONE prop tip on an aircraft with nine foot props ??

I suppose if they were both in a diagonal lower blade inwards position it might be possible to stand under the nose and reach both  -  whats the answer Ric ??  Have you got a scan of the picture ?

On the subject of the wreck photo:-

In my research recently I took a look at the Lockheed 12 Electra "Junior" - basically a slightly smaller L10 with the 450hp 985 Wasps.

There were 130 of these made and they went to such places as Cuba and the "Netherlands East Indies Army" which placed them in pretty tropical climates, I guess, should one of them have an accident and leave wreckage.

Presumably you've considered this a/c already.  Since they had the same engines as some of the L10's, did they have the same 9 foot props ?

Do you have any reasons for excluding the L12 in favour of the L10 ?
 
Simon Ellwood
***************************************************************

From Ric

I don't have a scan of the photo but you're correct in your supposition about the positions - props with blades at 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock and AE standing under the nose with arms outstretched.  This crucifix-like image, used in an ad which appeared AFTER her disappearance, was clearly a secret message confirming that she was still alive.  (Sorry. I shouldn't do that. By next week that photo will be on the cover of the Weekly World News.)

As for the Lockheed 12:  Yes, we carefully considered it as a candidate and eliminated it for three reasons -

1.  "Baby Electras" had R985s with nine foot props.  The prop/cowling proportions on the airplane in the wreck photo are correct for an R1340 with a nine foot prop.  They're wrong for the R985, so the airplane is neither a Lockheed 12 nor a Lockheed 10A or B.
2.  The Lockheed 12 had a center-post flanked by two additional uprights.  In other words, a four piece windshield. The windshield of the airplane in the wreck photo has a single center-post. In other words, a two piece windshield (like the Model 10).
3.  The Model 12 had a proportionately longer, thinner nose than the Model 10. The wreck photo more resembles the latter.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:24:29 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      The Noonan Project

to Sandy Campbell

I will send a letter or e-mail to the Pan Am organizations to which I belong requesting information on Fred Noonan.  it will probably take several months to get a reply as they have quarterly publications.  I have two web site addresses for the old Pan Am (not the new one that is in Chapter 11 protection).  Try www.panam.org/ and www.library.miami.edu/archives/panam/pan.html.  If any one is near or in Miami they might be able to research the old Pan Am archives in person.

Check the second of these web addresses.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:29:08 EDT
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      Kanton excavation

What kind of digging equip are you looking for??

My family owns a small "bobcat" with a bucket loader on one end and a small backhoe arm on the other end, complete with trailer.  Currently located in Colorado, but might find its way out to Calif if necessary.

Is that the item you are looking for?

AMCK TIGHAR #1045
*************************************************************
From Ric

Thanks.  That would probably do the job.  The main problem we need to solve is transportation.  We'll keep the bobcat in mind.  Any forum subscribers happen to have a C-130 sittin' around?
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:46:16 EDT
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Having done some long distance travelling by road, I usually estimate an average of no more than 50 MPH including fuel stops, food, and etc.  That would be today, and interstate speeds, etc.  In other words, it takes 20 hours of driving to go 1000 miles unless you are a maniac who eats and fuels up like an indy 500 driver.

What I am trying to say is that I seriously doubt that anyone could maintain an 55 mph average now, never mind in 1937, unless they drove like crazy and only ate on the move.  I dont think that a couple on their honeymoon would be trying to set a land speed record.

My guess is they took at least a couple of days to make their trip up to Oakland, not 15 hours of hard paced driving.

Anyone know what auto they were driving, or did I miss that already?

AMCK
****************************************************************

From Ric

No, you didn't miss it. The kind of car is not mentioned in the newspaper articles.  the best I can come up with is a photo taken at the Burbank airport on May 20, 1937 as the Electra is being loaded for the departure of the second world flight attempt.  Fred can be seen retrieving a suitcase from the trunk of a convertible while Mary Bea stands by the front bumper.  Probably safe to assume that it's their car.  Whether or not it's the car that was in the accident is anybody's guess.  No damage is apparent, but the crash happened April 4th.  It's a newish-looking car, so that does that mean the one in the accident was totalled or does it mean that a new car was worth repairing?

I'm an old airplane guy, not an old car guy.  If we have someone on the forum who is an authority on old cars I'll be happy to scan the photo and send it to them.

We're really geting down to minutia here (What kind of car did Fred Noonan drive?) but, what the heck, you can never have too much information.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:31:29 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Old bones

... and not such old bones.  A TV documentary on the continuing search for remains of people and aircraft lost in Cambodia.  It seems there's little to be found of either.

It's stated that between the tropical climate and the acidic soil, bones don't last long.  I quess the acidic soil results from bacterial decomposition of lots of vegatation.  Something like the process that produces vinegar?

Do we know what the soil is like on Niku?  At the campfire site?  Is it acidic? Is there a lot of salt in the soil, or does rainfall keep it pretty well washed out?  The salt question may not have much to do with anything but salt might tend to inhibit the processes that produce acidic soil.

Less than half a skeleton was found on Niku in 1940.  I've felt that a careful sifting of the soil would surely find more bones or bone fragments. In view of the Cambodian situation, I'm no longer so sure of that.  Another 58 years have passed.  And what of the possibility of an unmarked grave? Will there be anything left to find?

I think acid exposure disolves out the calcium leaving some organic stuff. Would such remaining material still contain mtDNA?  Could it be recovered and amplified?  Could one conceivably do mtDNA matching with soil samples???

**************************************************************

From Ric

What we know about the bone/soil situation on Niku, from direct experience, is this:

1.  It is possible for bones to survive there for a very long time.  In 1996, when we finally located the "water collection device" site deep in the underbrush of the northern shoreline which was first described to us by Coast Guardsmen who saw it in 1944, we found not only the metal tank they had seen, but we also saw the pile of bird bones they said they had seen there.  Fifty two years, sitting right there on the ground. Amazing.  However, that site was deep in the bush, very hard to find, sheltered from the wind and the ground was not soil but coral rubble with a scattering of dead leaves.

2.  Across the lagoon on Aukaraime, where we found the shoe parts and campfire, it's more open forest than underbrush.  There is real soil made up of rotted vegetation but it does not build up over time nearly as quickly as it does in more temperate, less dynamic environments.  The microbial activity on the ground there is awesome.  Here's an illustration: When we left the site in 1991, I forgot a pair of leather gloves I had been wearing and left them lying on the ground, palms down.  When we returned to the site in 1997, I recognized my old gloves lying there with just a few fallen leaves on them. Except for a now-rusted metal grommet, they looked like I had left them there yesterday - until I picked them up.  The undersides were completely eaten away.  Interestingly, the crabs had not carried them off or even chewed on them (as I would have bet they would).  The gloves were lying together, undisturbed, where I had dropped them six years before.  The campfire was only discovered after we had removed the first few centimeters of soild from the site.  It wasn't as far down as we would have normally expected a 60 year-old feature to be, but the retarded rate of soil build-up due to the intense microbial activity may explain that.

3.  While we have screened a great deal of soil from the ground surface around that site, we have found nothing that we have been able to identify as a bone (except a couple of tiny rodent bones of unknown age).  However, the grave we excavated in 1991 contained the fragile bones of an infant.  We don't know how old that grave is but is has to be at least 35 years old and probably older.

What I think we can conclude from all this is that exposed bones can survive on the island if they're in a non-soil, dry, protected environment.  Buried bones can also survive very well.  Exposed bones in the Aukaraime forest environment probably don't do so well.

I'm no expert, but I'd say that the chances of getting mtDNA from soil sample are zip.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:04:04 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      TIGHAR Tracks

Soon we'll be going to press with the new issue of our quarterly journal TIGHAR Tracks.  It is our practice to mount the text of each issue on the TIGHAR website (www.tighar.org) so that the basic information is publicly available but we do not mount the photos,maps and graphics because TIGHAR Tracks is, and should remain, a benefit of membership in the organization.

This issue will include:

* a full report on the Kanton Mission
* a feature on The Noonan Project (bones, genealogical, and sextant research)
* an update on research into the origin of Artifact 2-2-V-1 (the airplane skin)
* a summary of the physical evidence to date with a map of the island showing where each piece was found.
* an examination of what we know so far about the famous (infamous?) Wreck Photo.
* a new report on Operation Sepulchre (underground German hangars)
* a review of other aviation historical projects being pursued by TIGHAR members.

and much more.

If you're not yet a TIGHAR member and would like to receive the new issue, this would be a good time to send in the printable form to be found on our website.  Or just send your name, address, and check payable to TIGHAR for $45 to:

TIGHAR
2812 Fawkes Drive
Wilmington, DE 19808

We'll figure it out.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:04:10 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      TIGHAR Tracks II

We cover the production costs of TIGHAR Tracks through dedicated sponsorships. We limit ad space in the magazine to the top half of the back cover.  For the rest of this year, half of that space is spoken for.  The other 3 3/8 x 5 inch space is presently available.

If you're interested, please email me directly at TIGHAR1@aol.com for price information.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:08:45 EDT
From:         Dan
Subject:      soil and bones

Although many tropical soils are acid, one exception is coral atolls, where the "soil" is basicly calcium carbonate (like TUMS).  Acid soils leach out the calcium from bones.  Although I would expect flesh to decay rapidly, bone should suvive for quite a long time in this environment.  You can check out the Henderson Island website for skeletal survival on a similar Pacific tropical island, but this is a raised reef island, and not an atoll.  I would expect that DNA could still be isolated from any bones you find. Finding a grave site would be more difficult.  I don not know if ground-penetrating radar has been used in this type of environment, but it has been used to find graves and post holes in temperate soils.  This is not "fly-over" equipment, but is equipment that you drag and carry over the site.    Dan
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:15:50 EDT
From:         Fred Madio
Subject:      Bone origin

FHave you been able to rule out "The bodies of Mr. Jones, Mr. Leslie and one of the "Arabs" washed ashore and were buried on the island by the survivors." as possibly being the one found by Gallager, et. al?

Regards, 
Fred Madio

****************************************************************

From Ric

There has been a great deal of discussion on that point.  We're quite satified that the castaway found by Gallagher is not one of the Norwich City casualties because:

1.  The three NC bodies which washed ashore were buried.  The bones found by Gallagher were those of someone who was once alive and trying to survive on the island.
2.  The Norwich city survivors were on the island five days before being rescued.  Nobody was known to have been left behind.
3.  The bones found by Gallagher were far from the shipwreck.
4.  Gallagher himself considered the possibility and felt that the bones he found were not associated with the Norwich City.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:33:04 EDT
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      L12

Ric wrote:-

>As for the Lockheed 12:  Yes, we carefully considered it as a candidate and
>eliminated it for three reasons -
>1.  "Baby Electras" had R985s with nine foot props.  The prop/cowling
>proportions on the airplane in the wreck photo are correct for an R1340 with a
>nine foot prop.  They're wrong for the R985, so the airplane is neither a
>Lockheed 12 nor a Lockheed 10A or B.
>2.  The Lockheed 12 had a center-post flanked by two additional uprights.  In
>other words, a four piece windshield. The windshield of the airplane in the
>wreck photo has a single center-post. In other words, a two piece windshield
>(like the Model 10).
>3.  The Model 12 had a proportionately longer, thinner nose than the Model 10.
>The wreck photo more resembles the latter.

Point 1).... Agreed - it ain't a PW985/9 foot prop combination.

I conceed it's not an L12.  However, more generally....

Point 2).... Yes I agree the photo shows only a center strut.

However, to say that the L10 has only TWO front windshield panes isn't quite correct. Both have four.

The L12 has two small inboard and two larger outboard.  The L10 has two very large ones inboard and two much smaller ones outboard.

Thus BOTH require intermediate struts which just aren't visible in the photo, the difference being the L10's would be considerably further out.

Notwithstanding the engine evidence above, I don't see how you can rule out the L12 on this basis and use the visible strut as evidence of an L10.
   
Point 3).... I agree the general shape of the nose of the L10 is probably a better match, but as I mentioned in a previous posting, the internal structure does not seem correct for the L10.

Forward of the base of the windshield strut the L10 only has THREE fuselage "bays" - two approximately the same size and a smaller one right at the front - onto which the single piece nose cap attaches. The photo clearly seems to show skin missing from FOUR approximately EQUAL sized bays. I doubt you would be able to remove a strip from the L10's nose cap in such a manner to simulate the photo's four bays - and even then they wouldn't all be the same size.   

I make the above points 2) & 3) strongly NOT because I want to dogmatically believe that this photo isn't AE's L10   (if I did I'd form a spliter group... the "Not AE's L10 Club", a la  "No Land Club" with Mike etc.   :-),   I'd love TIGHAR to find this wreck on Niku and prove it to be AE's,  but there's clearly only two ways to positively establish the truth as to the plane's identity:-

1) Find the wreck and identify it as AE's L10E (from a s/n or something)

2) POSITIVELY eliminate every other possible candiate aircraft, whilst failing to eliminate the L10E.

We're clearly working on 2) above until we can maybe work on 1). I'm just snapping at your heels, Ric, when maybe I sniff "assumption" or "mind cast" - in the intrests of good objective science   ;-) 

I look forward to the TRACKS article.    

Simon Ellwood
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:38:06 EDT
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      The Noonan Project

TIME FOR THE NOONAN DRIVE:  The speed limit at that time in most states was, "Reasonable & Proper".  Even 75 in a few places was possible, on a straight stretch of road, with no traffic, AND a car that could go that fast, HOWEVER!!  The roads were two lane; slowdowns behind farm equip, trucks, &/or slower cars was the rule, not the exception.  Pot holes, flats, & detours were legion.  Curves, and there were lots of them except in large stretches of deserts or other uninhabited places, were seldom banked, and often marked with a do not exceed speed on the sign, which was usually far less than 60 mph.  Every town was a slow down to 25mph at least, & a potential speed trap.  Gas stops always involved checking the oil & water, & feeling the tires for temperature.  In short, even a new car like a Buick would be lucky to average 50 mph. on the Highway, not to mention the slow down for the towns & the stops, and that assumes no detours, flats, or rain.  RC

(PS .. DF  As I recall AE's concern, much less knowlege of, the Itasca's xmit/recv. freq. was, 'not much' . ref. the Itasca's Capt.'s msg. to her at Lae acct. his concern when he got G.P.'s msg. Also AE's request for a DF steer (that was not possible) & her req. for sending A's (?) on a freq. that they did not have. If it was not for a LF Beacon on Johnston, Kwajalein, etc. for the 200-400kc band on my loop/adf), I would not be writing this.  However, she missed HOW.  The "why" is of no value whatsoever to any hypothsis from there on. Hope Belden can shed light on the cable....RC
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:43:07 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Bone origin

Another bit of evidence that the bones were not related to the NC wreck is the sextant box.

Unless, of course, someone on the Norwich City had a Ludolf of Bremerhaven sextant box with a serial number very close to one Noonan gave as a gift.
***************************************************************
From Ric

Let's be clear about this.  We don't know that the sextant box found on the island in 1940 was for a Ludolph.  We only know that the marking reported to be on it resembled the markings on a Ludolph box in Pensacola that was borrowed from (not given as a gift by) Fred Noonan.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:49:20 EDT
From:         Vicky Perry
Subject:      Radcliffe Papers

I have been following the forum for a couple of weeks now and wanted to tell you that I think it's great. Today I was searching through the archives on- line of the Boston Globe and came across an article concerning a box of letters(to and from Amelia),and pictures. They were donated to Radcliffe by AE's sister Muriel Earhart Morrissey in 1983.

Do you already know of these ? Have they been reasearched? They are currently in the schools library, which is open to the public.

Just wondering, thought it might help.
 Regards, Vicky Perry
**************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks.  Yes, the Radcliffe papers are also now on microfilm.  Not much there from our perspective.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:54:30 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      coax/shielded cable

Another possible place for a "radio wire" in AE's Electra.  So far, I can't find a radio receiver of any kind from the 30s that has a connector to match those on the TIGHAR cable,  Maybe it was only part of the antenna connection -- not going all the way to the antenna terminal of the receiver.

I'm starting from the fact of "shielded" loop antennas and expecting that one would be inclined to also shield the lead-in.  I think this makes some sense in that it would prevent signal pickup by the lead-in as well as from the loop.  Even though inside the airplane, it still seems a good idea.

The stuff I'm seeing in the 1930s Areo Digest magazines indicates that it was not uncommon to have the circuitry for combining the signals from the loop and the sense antenna, and adjusting phasing, in a box of it's own. This box would be installed near the loop.  The circuitry is passive (requires no wiring for power).  There might have been co-ax type connectors on the loop and on that box, with a relatively short length of shielded cable connecing them together.  The connection from there to the reciever might have been something else.

This seems to leave a question about what was used for the sense antenna and where it was located -- if a sense antenna was used at all.  Might the "box" have been there anyway?  Maybe just because it provided the right kind of connector for a shielded lead-in from the loop?

There's simply too much about AE's radios we don't know but there may be a place for that shielded cable that we just have not been able to identify.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:00:16 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Where the body's buried

Has TIGHAR come across, "NecroSearch International" a not-for-profit forensic group?  They have no product or service to sell, but work for expenses only for law encorcement agencies.  I don't know how extensive their experience is with GPR, but they have used it to find buried bodies. They might have some thoughts about the feasibility of a GPR search for an unmarked grave on Niku after a lapse of over 60 years.

If you've not already done so, I'll try to find a way to contact them.
**************************************************************

From Ric

As I recall, Kenton Spading had some contact with them prior to Niku III.  Is that right Kent?
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:02:37 EDT
From:         Jim Dix
Subject:      What car is this?

Yes, there is an old car guy on the list!

If you could scan in the photo and send it to dixjf@corning.com I can give it a shot.

The speeds you are talking about are pretty good. We generally drive 45 ish on the road with a '29 Model A Ford Panel Truck, which is below where you are talking. My experience with '36 Fords is that they will run  along on secondary roads with modern traffic 50-55. The limiting factor in distances is the roads, in the late '30's the roads were similar to our secondary roads with many little towns limiting average speeds. The trip we're talking about is 2 or 3 days depending on how much of a hurry they were in.

Hope we can help,

Jim Dix  2132
***************************************************************

From Susie

My brother is an old car buff, who restores cars for fun.  Send me a scanned picture of Noonan's car, and I will ask my brother if he or any of his car buddies can identify it.

My family used to make yearly trips from Cleveland Ohio to a little town in west Virginia before the age of turnpikes.  A 300 mile trip took more than 12 hours by way of the normal 2 lane country roads.  I doubt that the roads in California were any faster.  Certainly they weren't in 1967 when my husband an I traveled via Route 66 from Ohio to March AFB in Riverside California. Expecting a car to average 50 mph is wishing for a lot.

Susie
(still saving for that membership)
****************************************************************

From Ric

We'll scan the photo and send it to Jim and Susie.  Any other takers?
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:08:13 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Does anybody have any genealogical info on FRED, NAMES OF PARENTS,. details very difficult to get over here. Compiling info for biography but he,s a bit of a mystery man.

Sincerely

Jackie Ferrari
**************************************************************

From Ric
(Note:  Jackie is in Scotland.)

Jackie,

Your query is timely.  We have recently launched what we're calling The Noonan Project specifically to nail down as much information as possible about Fred. We do not know where he was born except that, contrary to legend, it does not appear to have been Chicago.  Nor do we know who his parents or siblings (if any) were.

We have been able to piece together some bits and pieces of his life.  Some is fact, much is still rumor.  I'll email you copies of some of the recent posts and urge you to join the informal Noonan Project team of posters to this forum.  The fearless leader of the group is Sandy Campbell at sjcamp@swbell.net

I'm sure that the team will be delighted to have someone to work with who is in the U.K. (that is, until Scotland once more throws off the yoke of the usurper).

Welcome aboard,

Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:59:41 EDT
From:         Jim Holman
Subject:      Whar car is this?


JIM Dix, YOU ARE REALLY PUSHING THE TOP END OF THE MODEL A,, LOL THE 36 FORD WAS  POWERED BY 85 HP V-8 FLATHEAD. WHICH WAS A VERY FINE DURABLE ENGINE. YOU ARE CORRECT ABOUT THE ROADS,, MANY WERE NOT WHAT YOU WOULD CALL GOOD, AND WOULD HAVE TO BE BRAVE TO RUN THE SPEEDS THE 36 COULD DO,,, 70 TO 80 MPH+,,   although FORD ALSO BUILT A 60 HP V-8,, NOT SURE IT WAS AVAIBLE IN 36.
JUST ANOTHER OLD CAR MAN HERE.
REGARDS   JIM HOLMAN.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:03:36 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Thanks for your e-mail. Delighted someone is really interested in him. I feel he gets the short end of the stick in any thing I,ve read especially Jane Mendellsohns book well written as it is.

My interest is mainly in the man rather than the final flight. If only I could speak to someone who knew him; have written to a co-worker but haven,t heard back yet. Since I,ve just started with the research seriously I have't got too far. However I have looked into the naval stuff. I phoned the Ministry of Defence and they told me that if he was an officer you would need permission from a relative. If he wasn't an officer then the records can be accessed at the Public Records Office at Kew but you have to attend in person. Independent researchers will do the work for you but it's costly, about ?45 per 3 hours - I have employed one to research emigration records to no avail so far.

Also I have contacted the London Nautical College; they only keep records from the 1960's though interestingly it was set up in response to navigational difficulties incurred in the Titanic Disaster.

Apart from this my efforts have centered around systematically checking out the 'facts' in the Amelia biographies, getting searches done in the States. So far have only got a copy of his marriage certificate to Mary Bea. I,ve been trying to get info on his first wife and learned that she was called Jose Sullivan Noonan so the extra information I have got from your e-mail is great! Many thanks.

I'll let you know if I find anything else.

Sincerely

Jackie Ferrari
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:14:12 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Bone origin

Well, if we know a sextant box once owned by Fred has the number 3547 on it, and we know a sextant box found on Niku  had the number 3500 on it, I'd say that's a pretty strong indicator as far as sextants go in 1937.

They found Fred's sextant box.

(Here go the hardliners again.........)

***********************************************************

From Ric

Hey, I'm with you...they found Fred's sextant box.....but it's the same old difference between what a rational, informed observer concludes based upon the preponderence of evidence, and having some single piece of incontrovertible evidence (an engine with a serial number, etc)  - what we have come to call the "Any Idiot Artifact."  We haven't found it yet.

You look at what was found at the Aukaraime site by Gallagher in 1940 and by TIGHAR in 1991 and 1997 and it's a no-brainer.  This is AE and FN.  But say that in a press conference and (as Rooster Cogburn said in True Grit) "you'll think a thousand of brick have fell on ya."

Incidentally, we've become rather curious about the circumstances surrounding Gallagher's recall to Suva in May of 1941 and his ill-fated return in September.  Here's the chronology:

September 1940 - Gallagher moves his headquarters as Officer in Charge of the Phoenix Islands Settlement Scheme (O.I.C. P.I.S.S.) from Sydney Island to Gardner.

October 1940 - He finds the bones and artifacts, informs the higher-ups that he may have found Amelia Earhart, and is instructed to send the stuff to Suva, Fiji (headquarters of the Western Pacific High Commission) and keep his mouth shut.

December 1940 - Gallagher puts the bones and artifacts aboard the Royal Colony Ship Nimanoa when she calls at Gardner.

February 1941 - When RCS Nimano calls at Tarawa (headquarters of the Gilbert & Ellice Islands Colony of which P.I.S.S. is a part) enroute back to Fiji, Dr. Lindsey Isaac confiscates the bones and pronounces them to be the remains of an elderly Polynesian male (Amelia Earhart indeed!).

April 1941 - The bones and artifacts arrive in Suva.  Dr. Hoodless of the Central Medical School examines the bones and says that they belonged to a middle-aged European male.  The higher-ups then wire Gallagher to ask if he sent a sextant along with the box.  Gallagher immediately replies that no sextant was found. "Only part discovered was thrown away by finder but was probably part of an inverting eyepiece."

May 1941 - Gallagher is recalled to Fiji.

September 1941 - Gallagher returns to Gardner accompanied by Dr. D.C. M. "Jock" MacPherson whose specialty is forensic medicine.  Enroute, Gallagher becomes very ill (apparently appendicitis) and, upon arrival at Gardner, MacPherson operates but Gallagher dies on the table.

December 1941 - Other events in the Pacific eclipse colonial concerns.  No successor to Gallagher is appointed.  The entire affair of the castaway of Gardner Island is unmentioned and forgotten except as rumor and folklore until Gallagher's correspondence is rediscovered in Tarawa in June of 1997.

We wonder:
How curious was the Western Pacific High Commission about these remains and artifacts?  The bones of a middle-aged white guy, a woman's shoes, a sextant box, a Benedictine bottle, a campfire, remains of dead birds and a turtle. Apparently not related to the shipwreck.  Nobody missing in the region in recent years except a very famous Yank flier and her navigator.  In 1941 Britain is on pins and needles hoping that the U.S. will come into the war.

Was Gallagher's recall to Suva somehow related to the discovery he had made? Did the WPHC perhaps send him back in September with Jock MacPherson specifically to try to figure out just what had happened on Gardner Island? What else, if anything, had been found.  What, if anything, did MacPherson find?  Further digging in archival records may provide some answers.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:30:06 EDT
From:         Ken Feder
Subject:      The Noonan Project

A little while back a question was posed concerning the hypothetical possibility of recovering some of Noonan's DNA from dried saliva on an envelope flap, assuming there are any envelopes around that he may have sealed in the usual way (and that this might give us a known sample to compare to DNA recovered from any bones that might yet turn up).  I have finally contacted an old grad school friend who is both a trained forensic anthropologist and a lawyer (he helped solve the infamous "woodchipper murder" case here in Connecticut, identifying the victim on the basis of some tiny bone fragments). Al told me that the possibility of any intact DNA on a sixty year old, licked envelope flap was pretty remote.  Better to find a living family member and compare his or her DNA to whatever can be extracted from any human bones found in Niku.  Obviously, Noonan's genealogy is the key (and, of course, tracking down the reported bones).

Ken Feder
2106
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:56:03 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Good news:
  Records for Chicago Public Schools exist starting late 1800s.

Bad news:
  In order to have a search done, must provide name of the school or at least "a neighborhood" of residence.

These are all manual searches and are catagorized by school, not student names.

Am waiting for the Liason at Secret Service to return to her desk....

Sandy
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:07:21 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      The Noonan Project

re: licking envelopes

Fred sent a first day cover to his first wife. It is reproduced in" Wings of the Orient" and seems to be in the possession of a John J. Johnson. I dont know if he would have licked it though, they were not allowed to put letters in them apparently!  Still, it confirms his middle initial is J. and is interesting from the date, things cant have been too bad in the matrimonial sphere at that time for him to send a precious item like that to Jose. But then you never know!

May have something on the genealogical angle to follow.

Sincerely

Jackie Ferrari

***************************************************************
From Ric

They weren't exactly first day covers (which are issued the first day anew stamp comes out).  These were more souvenirs of the world flight. Is there a postmark on the with a date on the envelope?

You're right. It does seem to be some indication that the divorce from Josie was not acrimonius.  The only form of correspondence I would have sent my first wife right after the divorce is a letter bomb.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:02:43 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Ric--My small contribution---
The note today on First Flight covers jogged my memory.. In addition to the picture of the cover listed in "Wings to the Orient"---There are  better pictures of two covers in the new--"Pan Americans Pacific Pioneers" by Jon Krupnick..
Page 75.....Both from Survey Flt. 3 from Midway to Wake Island.. Dated Aug 16, 1935. Postmarked Aug 23, 1935 at Honolulu and addressed to Mrs F.J. Noonan .. and the other to Mr. F.J. Noonan at Hotel Claremont or Claremont Hotel-- Berkeley, California... Both sent by Fred--one with names of the crew members on the front of envelope........
LTM
JimErnieT@aol.com

**************************************************************

From Ric

Lemme get this straight.  As I understand it, the cover on the cover of Wings To The Orient is from one of the Pan Am flights rather than from the Earhart flight? (As are the photos of covers in Krupnick's book.)  If so, then it is NOT the case that Fred was sending souvenirs to his ex-wife in 1937.  In 1935 he was still (happily or not) married to Josie.  When Jackie mentioned  "first day covers" I assumed (incorrectly) that she meant the covers Earhart carried. My mistake.  Never mind.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:28:15 EDT
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      Bone origin

Has any attempt been made to locate Dr. D.C. M. "Jock" MacPherson?   If he was employed by the British government, employment records or retirement records might still exist.  Any attempt to locate them?

Thanks in advance for your  reply.

Roger Kelley
2112

***************************************************************

From Ric

Jock died, as I recall, shortly after the war.  We're presently trying to track down his papers, if any.  They could be at the Library of the WPHC or at the Public Records Office in England, or they could be in Fiji.  WE should also go after the papers of the High Commissioner at that time, Sir Harry Luke.  Sir Harry published his personal journal as A South Seas Diary.  It's charming and it mentions Gallagher and MacPherson and the whole gang, but not a word about the mysterious bones on Gardner.  We know that Sir Harry was in the loop and if the whole issue of the castaway was rather a big deal (as we suspect it may have been) he may have been the one calling the shots.  Trouble is, we also know that the affair was declared "strictly secret" at the time and the good stuff may still be classified.  What we have found to date (Gallagher's correspondence in Tarawa and the Hoodless report in England) may be only what fell through the cracks.

This all sounds disturbingly like the ravings of the conspiracy theorists and it makes me a bit uncomfortable.  Secret files.  Government cover ups.  Just the same, there's no doubt that bones and artifacts were found.  There's no doubt that the possibility that it was Amelia Earhart was considered.  There's no doubt that the affair was treated as a secret.  There's no doubt that the senior people in Suva were still interested as late as April 28, 1941. Maybe the matter was then  dropped and we already know all there is to know.  Or maybe we've uncovered only the tip of the iceberg.  Let's keep digging and remember that, as recently as a year ago, the bones were a vague and oft- derided rumor.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:39:38 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      Bone origin

>It will have to be an engine with a serial number on it.<

DNA won't convince everyone. Recent legal cases proved that.
**************************************************************

From Ric

Let's not kid ourselves.  No matter what we find and no matter how good it is, we won't convince everybody.  Too many people have too much of themselves invested in their own particular theory.  If abacked into a corner they can alsways resort to: The U.S. government planted the stuff there.  The Japanese government planted the stuff there.  Gillespie planted the stuff there.  Ruiz planted the stuff there.

The best we can hope to do is present well-documented evidence for inspection by rational people.  History (these days that means the media) will be the judge.  If you worry about it, you go nuts.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:20:45 EDT
From:         Sherwin of the NASA No Land Club*
Subject:      Coast Guard Types

Ric wrote:

>In 1996,when we finally located the water collection device site deep in
>the underbrush of the northern shoreline which was first described to us by
>Coast Guardsmen who saw it in 1944, --- "

I seem to recall a statement by Mr. Ric that the Coasties were confined to the south end of the island. So what were they doing "deep in the underbrush of the northern shorelines"??  As we have said in the past, the Coast Guard types were all over that island --- and they didn't find an airplane.

Sherwin

**************************************************************

From Mr. Ric

As rocket scientists, you guys certainly don't need me to tell you that, in the poker game of scientific investigation, general statements based upon supposition don't beat detailed descriptions based upon documented information.

Examples -
General statement based upon supposition:   Finding airplane wreckage on Nikumaroro is no big deal.  All of those Pacific Islands are littered with wrecks from WWII.

Detailed description based upon documented information:  Nikumaroro was well outside the combat area and no aircraft is known to have been lost on any of the Phoenix Islands (excluding Canton) except for what appears to have been a B-24D which crashed at Sydney Island sometime after 1943.  All of the aircraft debris found on Nikumaroro to date is either consistent with  a B-24D (there is known to have been immigration of settlers from Sydney in the years following the war) or is consistent with a Lockheed 10.

General statement based upon supposition: "The Coast Guard types were all over that island."

Detailed description based upon documented information:  According to Richard Evans, and corroborated by Herbert Moffett (both veterans of Unit 92), about a month after their arrival at Gardner in late July 1944, Evans, Moffett and MacDonald (now deceased) took an exploring walk up the northern shore of the island.  After they had gone about half a mile up the beach, Evans' eye was caught by something flapping back in the bush.  Going to investigate, they found a tank of some kind above which someone had rigged a tarp on poles so as to catch rainwater and direct it into the tank.  They assumed (correctly, as it turns out) that it was something the natives had put together.  In the first month or so on the island they made two or three such excursions up the north shore, which was permitted by the CO as it was far from the native village.  However, it's a hot, hard walk along the deep sand of the steeply- sloping beach and no fun at all (as I can personally testify) and they soon settled into a very indolent pattern of work, eat, sleep.  Only one veteran of Unit 92, Ernest Zehms, claims to have done much exploring on his own.  And no, he didn't find an airplane.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:57:30 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      The Earhart Trail

Ron Dawson has contributed a copy of Ann Pellegreno's book World Flight - The Earhart Trail to the TIGHAR library.  Thank you Ron.

Our Earhart library now contains the following titles:
"Age of Heroes" by Keyzer-Andre
"Amelia" by Goldstein/Dillon
"Amelia Earhart - A Biography" by Rich
"Amelia Earhart - A Report" by Carrington
"Amelia Earhart - Case Closed?" by Roessler/Gomez
"Amelia Earhart Lives" by Klaas
"Amelia Earhart - Lost Legend" by Wilson
"Amelia Earhart - The Final Story"  by Loomis/Ethel
"Amelia - My Courageous Sister" by Morrissey/Osborne
"East to the Dawn - the life of Amelia Earhart" by Butler
"Eyewitness - The Amelia Earhart Incident" by Devine
"I Was Amelia Earhart" by Mendelsohn (a novel)
"Last Flight" by Earhart
"Lost Star - The Search for Amelia Earhart" by Brink
"Hidden Latitudes" by Anderson (a novel)
"Hollywood Pilot - The Biography of Paul Mantz" by Dwiggins
"Searching For Amelia - The Return of an Aviation Legend" by Aoki (in Japanese)
"The Earhart Disappearance- The British Connection" by Donahue
"The Sound of Wings - The Life of Amelia Earhart" by Lovell
"Whistled Like A Bird" by Chapman
"World Flight - The Earhart Trail" by Pellegreno
"The Search for Amelia Earhart" by Goerner
"The Fun Of It" by Earhart
"Witness To The Execution - The Odyssey of Amelia Earhart" by Brennan
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:05:56 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Read with interest note about Fred's father being in the Secret Service. is it the same as the CIA?

Am getting search done in Chicago for Birth certificate. I telephoned Cook County and was told that records prior to 1916 very unreliable.

Awaiting death cert. from Sacramento.

The date on the souvenir letter to Jose is aug.23 1935 and it is addressed to the Hotel Claremont, Berkeley. It was carried on a survey flight and the cover was actually prepared by Fred.

Also trying to trace Mary Bea. I dont suppose there was any offspring but she might have given Fred's letters to a sister or someone.

Jackie
***************************************************************

From Ric

The Secret Service is charged with protecting the life of the President and other top officials.  It is totally separate from the CIA.

As for Fred's letters to Mary Bea - you must be psychic.  We have only recently learned that she did, in fact, give them to a sister and they have been kept out of circulation all these years.  We are presently engaged in some delicate and quiet discussions with the family and hope to have access to them soon.  If we are successful we will, of course, make the information publicly available.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:10:12 EDT
From:         unknown
Subject:      The Name Game

Sandy asked:

>I meant to ask... So Mary B. Passadori was married to a Martinelli
>before Noonan? And then later an Ireland...?  Is that how it goes?
>Mary Beatrice Passadori Martinelli Noonan Ireland.  aka Mary.  Sandy  #2110
>--------------------
>From Ric
>You got it.  Now let's see you do Elizabeth Taylor.

 Elizabeth Rosemund Taylor

    Nicky Hilton    1950
    Michael Wilding 1952
    Mike Todd       1957
    Eddie Fisher    1959
    Richard Burton  1964
    Richard Burton  1975
    John Warner     1982
    Larry Fortensky 1991
***************************************************************
From Ric

Ask a silly question.......
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:23:12 EDT
From:         Skeet Gifford
Subject:      Whar Car Is This?

Not bad for a satellite photo. I didn't know they had those in '37. Actually, I have a nice 3 x 5.5 print on my desk. I have narrowed the possible candidates, but the VIN number will be tough.

Do you agree that from the shape of the convertible top, the windshield has a V?
****************************************************************

From Ric

I agree.

Few people realize that NACA had an embryonic satelite surveillance program in 1937.  It wasn't very good.  You'll notice that the license plate is not legible.  It is, however, apparent that any spy flight by Amelia would have been unnecessary.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:26:08 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Bone Origin

ric: over the years i have learned that every conspiracy must always have just enough "truth" attached to it to make it seem logical & reasonable enough to be acceptable.    wwii was the spawning ground for many conspiracy theories & myths (as evidenced by the earhart conspiracy theories, which evolved mainly after the war ended) due to the inherent "top-secret" classifcation of any & all government records & documents, in any way related to the war.  when analyzing, even the most outrageous conspiracy theory, we often can find some element of the story that will bear closer, more detailed scrutiny (even as your own quest for the earhart electra has proven) & can ultimately provide the basis for uncovering more solid evidence, proving or disproving the theory or myth. / don neumann
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:27:54 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Bone Origin

ric & mike:  i agree, no matter what "evidence" is developed or uncovered, the "diehards" simply won't accept it as convincing proof, however as in most criminal & civil law cases, it is usually the "paper trail" that wins the day, especially in a case like this where almost everyone originally connected with earhart & noonan is dead or dying & memories are fading or are already completely vanished. fortunately or unfortunately, we are blessed today with the electronic capability of intensively searching for & uncovering seeingly long lost records & documents, so that no event , no matter how distant in time, can be re-created on our computer screens or micro film.   frankly, i'm still not sure whether such capabilities are really a blessing or a curse, but i'd encourage your continuing efforts to solve the earhart mystery no matter how many paper or electronic archives you have to re-open, because i am personaly convinced that is where the final chapter will be written on this case; never-the-less it would be even more incredible, that after all these years, you could recover the electra itself or the actual remains of it's crew! (in any event, i have to agree with the songwriter, it is such a: "glorious quest!")
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:22:33 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Bone origin

Mike Ruiz wrote:

>It will have to be an engine with a serial number on it.
>
> DNA won't convince everyone.
>
> Recent legal cases proved that.

The truth, is the truth.... Whether anyone believes it or not, is irrevelant.

sandy
****************************************************************

From Ric

Interesting philosphical question.  While it is certainly the case that "the truth, is the truth.... Whether anyone believes it or not" I would argue that truth is not useful unless it is accepted.  Disease was caused by bacteria and viruses when everybody thought it was caused by evil humors.  If the discovery of the real cause had not become widely accepted we might still be bleeding sick people.

The truth, whatever it may be, about the Earhart disappearance is not as important as the truth about the cause of disease.  The world seems to have chugged along just fine in ignorance about what really became of Amelia Earhart, and if we are able to find the long-sought answer we probably shouldn't expect that it will herald a new age of peace and understanding. What we can hope for, however, is to set a highly visible example in how you go about figuring out what is true.  In that sense, popular acceptance of what we find out is just as important as what we learn.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:24:53 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Ric--Yes --you now are correct..The covers were from the 1935 survey flight. The one shown in Wings to the Orient is not on the cover of the book.

Jim
***************************************************************

From Ric

And Fred wasn't sending souvenirs to his ex-wife.  I feel so much better. Thanks.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:32:21 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      What car is this?

So far we have one verdict (from Jim Dix, TIGHAR 2132) on what kind of car Fred is unloading as he prepares to depart on the second world flight attempt. I'll hold off posting his identification until others have had a chance. Wouldn't want to unduly influence anyone.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:18:45 EDT
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Bone origin

>What we have found to date (Gallagher's correspondence in Tarawa and the
>Hoodless report in England) may be only what fell through the cracks.

Ref:- The "English" papers above - who's checking into these papers over here in England ?

Regarding secrets/conspiracies, isn't the public supposed to have access to papers after 50 years or so - providing national security isn't compromised ?

Your theory about the possible hush-hush surrounding the bones and the possibility that they were AE's is interesting and plausible. At the time the English were desperate for the US to enter the war and US public opinion would be very important in such a decision (obviously this is pre- Pearl Harbour).

Clearly, if it leaked that AE & FN had survived the perilous flight only to have landed and starved to death on a British island for lack of rescue - the fear may have been a negative public opinion backlash in the US.

Simon Ellwood
**************************************************************

From Ric

Kenton Spading has been researching sources in England via correspondence. Obviously, it would be better to have somone on site.  Leeds is not London, but it's a whole lot closer than Minneapolis.  I'd like to suggest that you and Kenton correspond directly by email to see what might be arranged.  You can reach Kenton at KSpading@compuserve.com

The time period which must elapse before documents are declassified seems to vary.  When I was at the PRO in Kew a few years ago, several documents from the 1930s were declassified at my request (and no, I have no special influence).  Jackie Ferrari has found that WWI records won't be released until 1999 (75 years).
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:35:00 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      The Noonan Project

However, it does confirm that Fred came to Oakland WITH his first wife. This is also confirmed by an Oakland Tribune article which says she was with him when he first came out from Miami. Since he sent one to himself at the hotel Claremont, maybe he was living separately from Josie by August, 1935?

                                                Blue skies, jham #2128

**************************************************************

From Ric

Hmmmm.  Good point.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:53:18 EDT
From:         Randy Jacobson
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Actually, the Department of Motor Vehicles in California might be a good place to search for FJNoonan information, as may be other states.  The Social Security Administration may also have some info on FJN, but it was started sometime in the 30's.  Just a suggestion for the Noonan researchers.
Cheers,
Randy Jacobson, Tighar #1364
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:00:29 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      The Noonan Project

am going to the PRO Monday. Have never been before so dont know how my time will go but will endeavour to look up these records you sent. Are they ROYAL Navy or MERCHANT?  They look like ROYAL.  If so I was told by MOD that need permission of a relative if Fred was an Officer which he seems to have been.

are you writing a book? if so from which angle?  I reckon it'll be out well before mine. Have only recently gone on-line so have spent about 6 months researching just using letters  - agonisingly slow. However seem to have about the same info as what is going round the Forum.  I want to Know about the MAN  HIS CHARACTER.  All have is fred Goerner's description of "quiet,shy given to enigmatic flashes of anger." Do you know of any other character sketches? (Pass on Jane Mendellsohn)

regards
Jackie F.

**************************************************************

From Ric

Pardon me jumping in here, but I would be VERY suprised if Fred served in the Royal Navy.  Everything we know about him indicates that he was a U.S. citizen.  What would a Yank have to go through to become an officer in the "senior service."  The Merchant service seems far more likely.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:05:40 EDT
From:         unknown
Subject:      Re: What Car Is This?

Ric,
Are you serious about NACA and satellites in the 30's ?

**************************************************************

From Ric

No.  Sorry.  We should probably warn everybody about TIGHAR's sense of humor. We have a disturbing tendency to slip seamlessly into absurdity.  Just comic relief and a reminder never to take ourselves too seriously.

Love to mother,
Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:07:29 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Sandy

Checked London Times for every reference to Amelia and Fred. Only very short reports from all their stops and quite a bit on the disappearance all the standard stuff.  Most interesting thing for me was Fred's last letter in which the description of Amelia was given and which i read also in the Forum the other day.  Not even a photo of Fred.

 I'm very interested in this Secret Service thing. I have never come across any reference to his father being in anything like that. Wish you luck, can't imagine what it would be like to get similar records from MI5 or MI6.

Regards

Jackie F.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:17:22 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Cable ID

I think there is a good chance that Ty will have an answer on the cable as he sounded like he was close to an identification when I talked to him on the telephone.  He is the best I have ever seen when it come to knowledge of antique aircraft, engines and related material.  We should know soon enough.  Glad I could be of some help in the process.

Dick Pingrey

***************************************************************

From Ric

Just so everybody knows:

I have sent samples of the cables we're trying to identify to three sources.

1.  Belden Wire and Cable Company
2.  Vern Klein, TIGHAR member and frequent forum contributor
3.  Ty Sundstrom, a highly knowledgable aircraft rebuilder recommended by Dick Pingrey.

The cables (TIGHAR Artifact 2-3-V-1) were found in 1996 during the Niku III Preliminary expedition.  They were buried in the ground at a location in the abandoned village on Nikumaroro known to us as the Carpenter's Shop.  They appear to be aviation-related.  The primary question, of course, is whether they are of WWII or later vintage, or not.  Let's see what we learn.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:29:01 EDT
From:         Ron Dawson
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Regarding the Secret Service, remember they had another function beside protecting the Prez, that dealing with counterfeiting. It was/is under the Department of the Treasury. (I hope we are not unwittingly providing a connection to Henry Morgenthau for the conspiracy therorists, although the time frames are different).

Why would Fred's father be transferred to London? - unless it had to do with keeping track of currency/counterfeiting.

Ron Dawson, 2126
**************************************************************

From Ric

I didn't know about the anti-counterfeiting function of the Secret Service or that it was part of the Treasury Department.  If the alleged transfer to London happened while Fred was still a child (less than 15) and if he was born circa 1894, that puts it prior to 1909.  Possible administrations were:
Grover Cleveland  1893-1897
William McKinley  1897 - 1901
Theodore Roosevelt  1901- 1909 (possibly the most likely period)
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:54:00 EDT
From:         David Kelly
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Something which may be worth mentioning at this point about flyers and I guess it could also apply to navigators also.....many of them like to go fast.... so if you look at what speed an average driver would go you may have to add a bit.

David J Kelly
***************************************************************

From Ric

Knowing what kind of car Fred drove may also give us a hint about his driving habits.

While we're on the subject:
Don Jordan faxed me another newspaper clipping about the Fresno accident dated April 5, 1937.  This one is from his local paper (Atwater, CA) and says that the accident put Mary Bea in the Fresno hospital.  Other sources have mentioned knee and scalp lacerations, but no hospital stay. Fred is said to have received "minor bruises."  Other sources have mentioned a skinned hand. The driver of the other car is named as Mrs. Marie Lorenz, 37.  No mention of the infant other sources have said was with her.  She is said to have "escaped with slight injuries."

The article says that Fred and Mary Bea were married March 27th (correct) in Oakland (wrong).  It also says "Sunday the couple had dinner here at the home of Mr. and mrs. Ben Santi."  We have determined that March 27 was a Saturday and that the day of the accident, April 4, was a Sunday.  I think we can assume that the Sunday referred to is the day of the accident.  Atwater is well north of Fresno but south of Oakland.  This squashes our hypothesis that the accident occurred when the happy couple were on their way home from Yuma to Oakland.  It's clear that the dinner in Atwater happened before the accident in Fresno, which means that Fred and Mary Bea were headed SOUTH. Where were they headed?  Down to Burbank where the Electra was being repaired?
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:01:50 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Bo McNeely

Just received word that Amelia's mechanic Ruckins D. "Bo" McNeely passed away yesterday, April 16th.  The funeral will be Saturday in Murfreesboro, TN.

I spoke with Bo a few years ago about his recollections of the preparations for the second world flight attempt.  He didn't recall much detail but he did remember that that Noonan fellow didn't think much of all the fancy arrangements Manning and Mantz had installed in the cabin for the navigator.  Noonan sat up front and took most of his sightings right through the windshield.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:59:19 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Your Input Please

Occasionally we get a desperate message from a forum subscriber asking to be removed from the list because they're getting buried in email.  Today one poor soul reported getting upward of 70 messages a day from TIGHAR.

Typically, the forum generates between 7 and 12 separate messages in a 24 hour period.  Most subscribers choose to receive these as a single "digest" email. I can't imagine what would cause 70 messages to come cascading down on someone and we certainly don't want to be guilty of assault by email.

We'd like to find out what is happening.  If you're getting duplicate messages or experiencing any other problem with the forum, please let me know.  Also, if you have a suggestion about how we can make the forum more interesting or less cumbersome, I'd like to hear it.

Again, if you'd like to recieve the messages as a single daily digest, just send an email to:

listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com

and in the body of the message put only this command:

SET EARHARTFORUM DIGEST

That should do it.

Thanks,
Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:05:16 EDT
From:         Clyde Miller
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Details on the United States Secret Service and its history  can be found at:

http://www.ustreas.gov/usss/
***************************************************************

From Jackie Ferrari

The name on the Hotel Claremont letter is MRS F. J. Noonan. Or are there TWO Hotel Claremont letters dated 23 Aug. 1935?

Sure I read in one of the Amelia Biographies that Fred was in the Royal Navy for a while, thought it was kind of odd too given that he was American.

Have ethical qualms about the thought of Fred's love letters being in the public domain but I suppose Mary Bea's sister should be the judge of that. I'll never make a biographer!

Sincerely

Jackie F.
*************************************************************

From Ric

Jim?  Two letters to the Claremont?

Various biographies have had Fred in the U.S. Navy, the "British Royal Naval Service" (whatever that is), a pilot (which he was not), etc., etc.  That's why The Noonan Project is so important.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:12:31 EDT
From:         Jeff Lange
Subject:      Brennan Papers

I assume that since the library contains a copy of T.C. Brennen Jr.'s book "Witness to the Execution", that you have also looked through his compilation of data and documents which were partly used to back up his theory. "The Earhart Papers-Vol 1-5". I only ask as I came across a set of these at a local aircraft museum last week and was curious. if you were familiar with them. I am sure a lot of the documents in them are well known, but if it would help, I would be glad to go through them to look for any tidbits there might be. 
Jeff Lange
# 0748C
**************************************************************

From Ric

No Jeff.  I haven't seen Brennan's Earhart Papers Vol 1-5.  By all means have a look-through and see what's there.  We're not much interested in anecdotal accounts of Japanee-man-take-ladyfrier-Saipan but there may be some real sources there that we have missed.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:19:23 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Ric wrote:

>Where were they headed?  Down to Burbank where the Electra was being
>repaired?

ANSWER: According to the Oakland Trib, they were headed to Burbank. We also know from two separate sources that Fred had PO Boxes in both Oakland and Hollywood at that time. And Bea said after the disappearances that they planned to relocate to Hollywood where Fred had business opportunities set up for after the flight. My guess is he wanted to be near the plane repair and was working on setting up those businesses for later. 

David Kelly wrote (re driving times):

>guess it could also apply to navigators also.....many of them like to go
>fast.... so if you look at what speed an average driver would go you may

RESPONSE: Not only fast, but long hours. My earliest memories are sitting in my dad's lap guiding the family auto at 65+ mph down two lane roads (a lost driving art these days) criss crossing the states. He was a career military aviator (WW2, Korea, Vietnam). Give him a thermos of coffee, a pack of cigarettes, and he drove all day, all night, and most the next day. We slept in the car or station wagon and the miles rolled by. Noonan was certainly no stranger to operating on little sleep. I bet when he went somewhere, he didn't waste any time gettin' there either. And if he had a decent 1934+ auto, he could roll at 65 all day and all night.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:31:16 EDT
From:         Pat Thrasher
Subject:      How to Access Forum Archives

Every message that has been posted on the Earhart Forum since its inception in November 1997 is available for your review. Here are step-by-step instructions for accessing the Earhart Forum archives.

The archives are kept as a monthly digest, starting in November (with three test messages) and continuing month by month.

First, send an email to:

listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com

with the command:

INDex earhartforum   (that's all you have to put in the body of the message)

You'll get back a list of all the archive files available. It will look like this:

  EARHARTFORUM  LOG9711         LOG OWN        4,400 1997-11-21 10:37:01
  EARHARTFORUM  LOG9712         LOG OWN      128,408 1997-12-30 18:35:30
  EARHARTFORUM  LOG9801         LOG OWN      228,920 1998-01-31 22:20:44
  EARHARTFORUM  LOG9802         LOG OWN      326,875 1998-02-28 22:56:16
  EARHARTFORUM  LOG9803         LOG OWN      559,494 1998-03-31 08:34:51
  EARHARTFORUM  LOG9804         LOG OWN      279,902 1998-04-17 13:19:59

Choose the one you want and send another email to

listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com

with the command:

GET EARHARTFORUM LOG [whichever one you wanted]

so if you wanted the log for February, your message would read:

GET EARHARTFORUM LOG9802

Within a few minutes you'll get back a confirmation message, and a separate file with the log you wanted. Except for November's they'll probably come as downloadable text files, too large for most email software. They'll open in any word processor.

If you have any problems, be sure to let us know.

Pat Thrasher
TIGHAR techie and maillist lurker.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:33:10 EDT
From:         Bob Sherman
Subject:      Driving Speeds

RE:  Noonan's driving speed.

"And if he had a decent 1934+ auto, he could roll at 65 all day and all night."

I don't know what difference it makes if it took him one day or three, and young people, not just aviators, had (still have) a tendency to drive fast, especially when there was no speed limit in those days.  From personal experience however, the quoted line is a wild exaggeration.  65 in some places for relatively short distances, yes.  Beyond that, a dozen  common reasons for slow downs in the mid 30's, would not support anywhere near that average over the distance in question, even if he had a Dusenburg, or a 16 cylinder Caddy, and Barney Oldfield doing the driving.  The last references combine the best of that day.   RC #941
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:44:10 EDT
From:         Tom Roberts
Subject:      The Noonan Project

This may be OBE, but...
During the 1930's, my grandparents and mother lived in Hollywood, had a ranch at the Salton Sea (about two-thirds of the way to Yuma), and often visited an uncle in Oakland.  In driving between Hollywood and the ranch, my grandmother always stopped for the night about halfway.  My grandfather did it in one day, but it took the better part of a day to accomplish what we can do now in a little over two hours.  They felt lucky to average 40 miles per hour, not counting stops.  There were a lot of towns along the way to slow them down, and the roads were narrow and not always well-maintained.  My mother never took the road through the Imperial Valley and on to Yuma, but it was probably worse.  The L.A. to Yuma portion of the trip could have been made in a day, but it would have been an adventure.  Wind and blowing sand are typical in the area.

The trip from L.A. to Oakland, although farther, had the advantage of better roads.  My grandmother always turned it into a two-day trip, but it could have been accomplished in one day even then, albeit a long day. 

All told the trip from Yuma to Oakland would have been two days at the minimum, but may well have taken longer.  An stop in Burbank on the way would seem convenient, if the Electra was being repaired there.

Tom Roberts, TIGHAR #1956
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:16:38 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      No Land Club Offensive

From The No Land Club *

Ric wrote:

>As rocket scientists, you guys certainly don't need me to tell you that, in
>the poker game of scientific investigation, general statements based upon
>supposition don't beat detailed descriptions based upon documented
>information.

Ok, Ric, I guess we need to mix it up again.

We make general statements based on fact supported by detailed descriptions and documented information.

The plane isn't there.

Lets take a hard look at the proof.

First of all, for those forum subsribers who are not familiar with Niku, it is about 4 nm long with a lagoon in the middle of it. Basically a narrow strip of land around a lagoon, which is 1200-1500 feet wide at its widest point.

Over the years, Niku has ranged from heavily vegetated/dense to drought stricken and sparse.

Let's take a close look at the history of Niku that TIGHAR prepared, for the benefit of those on the forum who haven't seen it. References are from TIGHAR TRACKS, Volume 12, Number 2/3.

Here are the facts, according to TIGHAR:

Several hundred people have been on/flown over Niku.

July 9 ,1937.

Lt. Lambrecht search:

October 13-15, 1937, 19 Gilbertese delegates assisted by two British visited Niku.

Dec. 1, 1938 6 New Zealanders evaluate Niku for TWO MONTHS. This search includes aerial photographs taken of the island.

December 20, 1938; more British, Gilbertese show up. British fellow Maude notes a severe drought has turned the lush paradise of Niku into a parched and hostile landscape. That sounds like a lot less vegetation, easier to poke/look around the island.

April 1939. Maude is back with more villagers.

April 1939
A US Navy survey of the Phoenix Islands is conducted. On April 30 a floatplane from the USS Pelican takes aerial mapping photos of Niku.

June 1939
More settlers show up, including 26 children. Children don't just sit around. They now have a nice brand new island to explore.

November 1939
USS Bushnell arrives on Niku to begin an American survey of Niku. Eight primary stations are constructed (which include 3 - 80 foot steel towers) and 14 secondary stations are established. Extensive soundings are taken in the lagoon and surrounding ocean.

1940
British Administrator Gallagher now lives on Niku, finds bones, thinks they are Amelia's.

June 1941
At least 4 US Navy PBY flying Boats conduct a recon of Niku. NINE aerial photographs are taken, at least one aircraft lands in the lagoon.

1942
British Officer Wernham checks up on the villagers.

April 1943
District Officer Major visits Niku.

November 1943
A US Coast Guard Flying boat brings a survey party to Niku to survey Niku for the Loran Station.

July 1944

Construction of Loran Station begins. Over 130 are involved.

Comment: 130+ young Americans on a small, narrow island, with nothing to do in their spare time but look around the island.

August 1944
British Col. Huggins visits Niku

1944/1945
Lt. Mims claims he sees aircraft wire used for fishing and that a native says there was an airplane there.  Comment:  Sure there was an airplane there. Lots of PBY's.  Plane is a plane to a native, plane landed here, here is a wire.  Makes sense.  Probably washed up.

1945
Col. Huggins is back.

1946
Coast Guard secures Loran Station. This is when Kilts hears about the skeleton.

1947 & 1948
Multiple visits by the British.

1949
More British visitors to Niku. Now Sydney residents are imported to live on Niku. They lug B-25 parts with them.

1953
MORE aerial photos of Niku.

1963
Niku evacuated. A channel is blasted through the reef. Comment: This means a lot more folks going to Niku and poking around while they are blasting and evacuating villagers.

1964-1975
4 Smithsonian expeditions are made to Niku. The scientists are there to look at plants and birds. Comment: That means they are looking around pretty good.  On one occasion, the Smithsonian types arrive by helicopter. More aerial views of Niku.

1978
Geomarex Corp surveys Niku.

1989-Present

4 TIGHAR expeditions to Niku.

Lets examine what TIGHAR has said in the past:

TIGHAR summary of the Earhart Project, Sixth Edition.
Quote "The Lockheed can be expected to lie in the deep water immediately adjacent to the atoll".

TIGHAR TRACKS, December 11, 1991, Volume 7, Number 5, quote "The 1989 expedition determined that there was no intact airplane parked on Nikumaroro".

The TIGHAR Class of 1989 was right. There is no plane there. Any pieces that may have been there (of which there are shaky reports...see below) were eaten by the natives. If the Gilbertese took roof thatching when they left Niku, they sure took any Lockheed parts that may have been found (unlikely that they had them, no other visitors saw them).

Lets examine the anecdotal evidence. Reference: TIGHAR TRACKS, Volume 13, No.1,p.9-12.

Funafuti residents Pulekai Songivalu, Risasi Finikaso, and Tapania Taiki are interviewed.

Prior to the interview, TIGHAR tells these folks all about Amelia and that they are looking for an airplane.

Excerpt form interview: Ric: Have you heard of an airplane crash on Manra or Sydney Island?
Pulekai response: "No, but I saw pieces of an airplane on the lagoon side".

Nice try, Pulekai. But Ric didn't ask you about Niku.

War Story Time: I recall asking a native in a land far away what he thought of the local government. He responded by saying Mr. Kennedy was a good man. Later, when I queried the interpreter as to why the native did not answer my question, he responded that the natives wanted to please me, they thought I wanted to hear that they liked our government. In my 17 years living abroad associating with natives throughout Africa and Asia, I can cite numerous examples of eager natives trying to please, saying whatever it was they thought you wanted to hear. They are particularly good at it when they know ahead of time what you want.

So, I don't hold much faith in Pulekai & Company 's account, particularly with all the known (and unknown) traffic through Niku that never reported an aircraft, or parts of an aircraft.

So where is all this going? Why even debate this? It goes to the heart of planning, i.e., efficient Project (Expedition) Management. Don't waste search time sifting through sand on Niku's beach. Or poking around an island that has been well travelled over time.

With expeditions VERY expensive, time always short, and labor supply limited, focus on where the plane most probably is, the lagoon, reef, and ocean. We would not recommend expending precious labor time with long, intensive, land searches of the island anymore.

You (and many others) have been there and done that.

Dig the Kanton site, search the lagoon and reef.

In closing, we will repeat, we make general statements based on fact supported by detailed descriptions and documented information.

Love to mother,
The No Land Club*

**************************************************************

From Ric

Nice summary.  Thank you.

First, let me reassure you that I have no intention of expending lots of assetts sifting the sand of Niku's beaches.  Been there.  Done that.  I do, however, think that the Funafuti anecdotes (which appear to be corroborated by aerial photos) make it worthwhile to search the dense undergrowth of the Nutiran and Taraia shorelines where wreckage was reported seen.  We've never looked there before and I think we should.

Second, let me be so bold as to remind you that it is impossible to prove a negative.  I can not prove that there are no elephants in this office.  I can demonstrate that my comings and goings, and even careful searches, have not turned up any elephants.  But that does not prove there are none here.

I've heard an awful lot of people talk about how small Niku is and how, with all the inhabitants and surveys and overflights, it is inconceivable that the island could hold any secrets.  Funny. I've never heard that from anyone who has tried to search there.

Back when we first heard rumors of bones found on the island (anecdotes not unlike the stories of airplane wreckage we heard on Funafuti), numerous authorities - including Fred Goerner and Harry Maude - told us it was impossible that something like that could have happened and for none of the many, many people who visited and surveyed the island to have known about it. Their "proof" that it couldn't have happened was the same proof you offer.

The opinion that there is, and has been,  no major body of airplane wreckage on Nikumaroro is not unreasonable and may in fact be quite true.  But it's an opinion, not a proven fact.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:24:56 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Randy wrote:

> Actually, the Department of Motor Vehicles in California might be a good
> place to search for FJNoonan information, as may be other states.  The
> Social Security Administration may also have some info on FJN, but it was
> started sometime in the 30's.  Just a suggestion for the Nooan researchers.

The DMV in California.., that's a great suggestion, Randy!! Thanks. We'll look into that.

Social Security started in 1935.  I've checked those as well as the Social Security Death Index..., Apparently Fred was too busy getting divorced and married at that time and never filed.  I've not been able to find him listed.

Sandy
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:50:32 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Ric wrote:

> Pardon me jumping in here, but I would be VERY suprised if Fred served in the
> Royal Navy.  Everything we know about him indicates that he was a U.S.
> citizen.  What would a Yank have to go through to become an officer in the
> "senior service."  The Merchant service seems far more likely.

I agree with Ric on this one...  I also tend to think that the media, (nothing ever changes!), in 1937 probably embellished on alot of the hearsay statements made "about" Fred J. Noonan.  This is one reason I think it important to set the record straight, thus doing justice to the history & memory of an individual who made a great contribution.

Sandy #2110
*************************************************************
From Ric

Earhart's record setting flights contributed to the advancement of air travel only in the sense that they were highly publicized and contributed to the general excitement that permeated aviation in the '30s.  Amelia also fought for women's rights and opportunities- specifically, the chance to hold down a job as an airline pilot.  Unfortunately, she lost that fight.  Equal employment opportunities for women (such as they are) are a legacy of the civil rights legislation of the 1960s, not Amelia Earhart.  Not to demean Amelia's contributions by any means, but they are primarily inspirational rather than practical.

Fred Noonan, on the other hand, was an innovator in the same sense as Lindbergh and Doolittle.  They not only did things that no one else had done before, but they developed techniques which enabled their daring deeds to become routine for all pilots. Fred's work with Pan American was seminal in the development of safe commercial transoceanic air travel.  So how many great aviation pioneers  vanished over the Pacific on July 2,1937?
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:51:57 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Jackie Ferrari wrote:

>  I'm very interested in this Secret Service thing. I have never come across
> any reference to his father being in anything like that. Wish you luck,
> can't imagine what it would be like to get similar records from MI5 or MI6.

Aye, Jackie...  Haven't got 'em yet!

Also want to ask:  Have you checked any sort of Census in England for 1910?  We have a Federal Census here every 10 years; do you have anything like that over there?

Sandy
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:57:26 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

What were G-men?  Were they Secret Service or FBI?

**************************************************************
From Ric

FBI.  Stands for Government men.  Supposedly some prominent gangster (whose name will be provided within 30 seconds by one of the forum's gentle subscribers), upon being apprehended by the FBI, threw up his hands and said something like, "Don't shoot! You got me, G-men!"
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:14:46 EDT
From:         Pat Thrasher
Subject:      Setting to receive digests

Al, and others who've had a problem getting digests rather than individual emails:

The command is

SET earhartforum DIGest

That's it. No "thanks", no signature, no nuttin'. No human bean ever sees this command. If there's extraneous stuff the computer gets confused and you get mush. This is not our computer, it's a big server somewhere in... Michigan? someplace like that. Anyway, COPY the above and PASTE it and you should be fine.

And be sure to send it to

listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com

Pat Thrasher
Forum techie
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:22:11 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      What Car Is This?

So far we have one specific ID from Jim Dix and a somewhat general ID from Susie.  More takers?
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:27:40 EDT
From:         Jerry Ellis
Subject:      Cable ID

My second "expert," Sam Campbell, agrees that the cables came from a radio or related equipment such as the DF.  His old manuals were included in a sale and I've just learned that they were all lost in a tornado a couple of years ago.  Surely there are copies of materials from that era available in some library someplace.  However, I'll wait until you hear from Belden before I seek more answers.

On another point, I feel I should apologize to Jerry (Hamilton?) for my lack of thoughtfulness when I also signed my name as Jerry.  I should have used something different so I will use Jerry E., in the future.  I hope he feels free to resume using his first name in these posts. Sorry about that Jerry!   jerry e.

Jerry W. Ellis                      Carbohydrates, polymers and
Professor of Chemistry              Chemical Education
Department of Chemistry
Eastern Illinois University
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:30:34 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      The Noonan Project

A short early history of the SECRET SERVICE
(from <http://usgovinfo.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa022798.htm>)

"The Investigative Mission
At the close of the Civil War, between one-third and one-half of all U.S. paper currency in circulation was counterfeit. On July 5, 1865, the Secret Service was created as a bureau under the Department of the Treasury to combat this threat to the nation's economy. Within less than a decade, counterfeiting was sharply reduced."

"During its early years, the Secret Service investigated many cases unrelated to counterfeiting. These cases included the Teapot Dome oil scandals, the Ku Klux Klan, Government land frauds, and counterespionage activity during the Spanish-American War and World War I. As other federal law enforcement agencies were created, the investigative jurisdiction of the Secret Service became limited to Treasury-related crimes."

"The Protective Mission
In 1901, President William McKinley was assassinated in Buffalo, New York. He was the third President killed in 36 years, and the public demanded protection for U.S. Presidents. As a result, Congress directed the Secret Service to protect the new President, Theodore Roosevelt. In 1906, Congress finally enacted legislation making presidential protection a permanent Secret Service responsibility."

"Protective responsibilities expanded greatly since that time, and the Secret Service completed a number of temporary protective duties. These assignments included providing security for the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, the Gutenberg Bible, and other valuable documents during World War II; providing protection for a number of foreign leaders who visited the U.S. during World War II; and providing protection for Leonardo da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" while on exhibit in the United States."

If his dad was in the SS, perhaps he went to London for counterespionage as mentioned above.

                                                Blue skies, jham #2128
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:43:27 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Driving speeds

Regarding auto transit time between Burbank and Yuma:

According to newspaper accounts, Noonan arrived in San Pedro on the Malolo on March 25. He was married in Yuma on March 27. I don't know the time of docking or the ceremony.

                                                Blue skies, jham #2128

***************************************************************

From Ric

They sure were in a hurry to tie the knot.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:20:49 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      AE newspaper articles

A question. Amelia was writing articles while on her flight. My sense is that only newspapers associated with Putnam's publishing company got these as "exclusives" (like the Oakland Tribune). Does any one know how this worked? Was it only Tribune papers?

Another question. Did these articles form the basis, or the entirety, of the book published under her name (Last Flight)?

Final question. Does TIGHAR have the entire collection of her articles? If so, are her comments considered the definitive word or is there evidence of spin doctoring or inaccuracies.

Thanks. jham #2128
***************************************************************

From Ric

Excellent questions.  Putnam had cut a deal with the Herald Tribune newspaper group for exclusive coverage of the flight.  He, of course, did not own the Trib or any newspaper.  Originally, AE wasn't supposed to give interviews to any but Trib reporters, but GP insisted that she be permited to answer general questions.  TIGHAR member Mike Firczuk spent many hours assembling a complete collection of the Herald Tribune articles for us.

Amelia sent home notes that were expanded into articles and which also served as the raw material for Last Flight.  Many of the original submissions are in the Special Collections archive at Purdue University.  It's clear that considerable editing was done before publication.

For example, what appears in the book as " My penciled log, scribbled in the cockpit as we flew, records that off Andros we sighted a partly submerged wreck, mute testimony of a tragedy long ago."  But AE's notes make it clear that no such wreck was sighted "off Andros" (an island in the Bahamas).  The only reference to a wreck - "Freddie points out a submerged (partly) wreck off shore." - is logged at least 45 minutes after passing Andros Island.

Another example:  AE described the flight from Darwin to Lae this way; "It was a fairy-story sky country, peopled with grotesque cloud creatures who grinned as we threaded our way through its shining white valleys."  In Last Flight, the editor decided that the cloud creatures didn't grin but, instead "eyed us with ancient wisdom."  Whatever.  The point is, don't trust Last Flight.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:40:26 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: No Land Club Offensive

Re. the No Land Club.....

1. Boy, I'm getting tired of being told all about Niku by people who've never been there.  Let me assure you, folks; I've done archeological surveys on a whole bunch of islands in the Pacific, and several other rather woodsy places, and I've never run into a place where it would be more difficult to find stuff.  And the notion that the Gilbertese villagers were going to find stuff and turn it in just flies in the face of everything we know and have experienced about the way folks in the area view stuff like old airplane parts.  The airplane certainly may not be there, but whether it is or not doesn't, I think, have much to do with whether it was there for Lambrecht et al to see or for the colonists to find.

2. The statement "We make general statements based on fact supported by detailed descriptions and documented information" is worthy of the good padres who persecuted Galileo.  Whatever else it may be, it ain't good science.

Tom King
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:41:44 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: setting to receive digests

What a relief!  Now I can stop printing everything I think I might need to refer to!

LTM
TK
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:44:44 EDT
From:         Gary Kelley
Subject:      What Car Is This?

I have been closely following this forum for months now, although this is my first post. I am an auto enthusiast and worked for years in the local Ferrari shop. I would like a look at the photo of FJN's car. I have a wide circle of aquaintances who may be of assistance in identifying this car.

Love to mother,
Gary Kelley

***************************************************************

From Ric

I'll send it right along. (..the local Ferrari shop?)
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:57:58 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Reference Social Security Death Index

It is my understanding that only individuals who have collected Social Security benefits are listed on the Social Security Death Index.  Fred Noonan may or may not have paid into Social Security but it is highly unlikely that he ever received Social Security benefits and thus he would not be listed on the Death Index.  Perhaps it would be possible to get information about his parents, etc. from Social Security records if he applied for and was issued a Social Security Card.  Probably we would need his card number.  If employment records for Fred exist in the Pan Am archives they may contain his Social Security number.  Pan Am kept quite extensive personal records and these could be in their archives in Miami (Refer to my earlier posting for their web address).  Having Fred's S.S. number would seem the best starting point to obtaining any information on Fred from the Social Security Administration.  The Pan Am records would also contain information on Fred's parents, etc. or at least they would if the same information was collected when Fred worked for Pan Am as was recorded when I worked for them.  Can any one in the Miami area check the Pan Am archives?

Dick Pingrey
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:04:08 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Satellites circa 1930

>Are you serious about NACA and satellites in the 30's ?
>
>**************************************************************
>From Ric
>
>No.  Sorry.  We should probably warn everybody about TIGHAR's sense of humor.
>We have a disturbing tendency to slip seamlessly into absurdity.  Just comic
>relief and a reminder never to take ourselves too seriously.
>
>Love to mother,
>Ric

****************************************************************
From Vern

Yeah!  Hold on to that appreciation of the ridiculous -- It'll help you keep your sanity!  We note that Sputnik was put up in 1957 not 1937.  But for that, we probably wouldn't be up there yet!

****************************************************************
From Ric

Better watch out or you'll have NASA No Land Club* down on you.

Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:16:39 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Yes there are TWO  survey flight covers. Both addressed  by  FJN. Both dated Midway Aug 16, 1935- postmarked at Honolulu Aug  23, 1935... One hand written address to Mrs. FJ Noonan at Hotel Claremont, Berkeley and the second with typed address to Mr. FJ Noonan at Claremont Hotel, Berkeley.. The typed cover has the crew members names  as individual signatures- names like  Canaday, Tilton, Wright and the infamous R.O.D. Sullivan. Can send you a xerox copy of page 75 in Krupnicks  book if you wish...
Jim Tierney
************************************************************

From Ric

That would be nice.  Thanks.

This is sort of interesting.  On the 16th of August Fred sends a cover to his wife who is apparently staying at the Claremont.  Eleven days later he sends another, more valuable (with crew signatures), cover to the Claremont addressed to himself.  Is there any significance at all to this?  Obviously, the two covers refer to the same survey flight.  Is the crew in Honolulu during this entire period?  When did they come out from California?  Did Fred and Josie take up residence in the Claremont just for the duration of the survey flight?  Was Josie originally intending to wait for him there and then left?

This is what you get for being famous.  Long after you're dead, strangers pry into your personal life.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:22:50 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Re: No Land Club Offensive

>Don't waste search time sifting through sand on Niku's beach. Or poking around
>an island that has been well travelled over time.

March 1998.... in the Heart of Houston,Texas, Antebellum cemetery and gravestones discovered...
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:28:40 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Spoke with CA DMV yesterday.  She is sending me a form to fill out, but said she doesn't think the records are kept on file that long.  We'll give it a try, though.

Also wanted to ask.., and I think it may have been addressed before, but what is the status on an aerial Infra-Red survey of Niku? (Besides not having a plane or instrumentation..)

Sandy
*************************************************************
From Ric

That's the status.  Getting a plane out there with the right instrumentation to make the trip worthwhile would be as expensive as putting a team on the ground (which could accomplish a whole lot more).  At this point we're focusing on preparations for Niku IIII scheduled for the fall of '99.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:30:35 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      The Noonan Project

The time is not given on the marriage cert. but the time of filing the record is.

I quote "Returned and filed for record by HENRY C. KELLY this 29th day of March ,A.D. 1937 at 9 04 o'clock A M

They married on the 27th
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:51:32 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Cable ID

Regarding the Cable, (and this may be a redundant question).  But has anyone contacted a researcher at the Air & Space Museum?

Sandy
****************************************************************

From Ric

Oh dear.  You force me to dispel yet another myth.  The Smithsonian's National Air & Space Museum (NASM) is a wonderful repository of information in the form of publications, documents and artifacts.  It is not a great repository of knowledge. Sometimes you can find the answers you need, but you have go dig them out yourself.  That's as gently as I can put it.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:55:13 EDT
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Just a note on the Social Security Index: don't forget that the Social Security Administration didn't get started until 1936 in the first place. At that time, I believe, you also had to have paid into the system for ten years to receive any knid of benefits. The index as it now stands, wheter on CD-ROM or as accessible by the net essentially lists whether or not a death benefit was paid, and in what location. Sometimes it will also list whether or not railroad retirement was paid, which was a separate retirement system. What MAY prove fruitful, however, is the Veterans' Administration system, which often paid benefits to widows/dependents of deceased veterans, even if they did not die during military service, if certain conditions were met. It's worth a look!---Gene Dangelo
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:00:53 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Quicky wedding

Jerry Hamilton wrote:

> Regarding auto transit time between Burbank and Yuma:
>
> According to newspaper accounts, Noonan arrived in San Pedro on the Malolo
> on March 25. He was married in Yuma on March 27. I don't know the time of
> docking or the ceremony.

Why Yuma....?  Didn't they have JPs' in San Pedro??

Sandy
***************************************************************

From Ric

I've been assuming that it had to do with Arizona law versus California law. California probably required a waiting period and Arizona didn't.  Yuma's only apparent virtue (with apologies to any subscriber residents) is that it's just over the border.

Should be checkable.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:02:59 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Jackie:

Does the Marriage Cert state:

location ..church or courthouse?
witnesses names??
Minister??
ANY other names on that paper at all??

Thanks

Sandy
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:58:18 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Cable ID

Ric wrote:

> Oh dear.  You force me to dispel yet another myth.  The Smithsonian's National
> Air & Space Museum (NASM) is a wonderful repository of information in the form
> of publications, documents and artifacts.  It is not a great repository of
> knowledge. Sometimes you can find the answers you need, but you have go dig
> them out yourself.  That's as gently as I can put it.

No problem.  It was just a thought, since I had a helpful experience with the Smithsonian identifying possible age and origin of a early 18th century silver spoon.

SAndy
**************************************************************

From Ric

Exactly.  You were probably dealing with the National Museum of American History.  Like Science & Industry, Natural History, National Gallery, the Hirschorn, the Freer, the National Zoo, etc., etc., it's an academically- minded institution.  NASM is the only member of the Smithsonian family that is not run by scholars, which has always been something of sore-point on the Mall.  You'll never read about any of this in the pages of Smithsonian magazine but, for those of us who are engaged in serious aviation historical research, it is just a fact of life.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:29:17 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Speaking of records and such.., I just had a thought, (yes. another one..) To obtain a pilot's license back then, didn't you have to be fingerprinted or federally "ID'ed", ..?? or anything like that??
************************************************************

From Ric

Not sure.  That's certainly not the case today.  Anybody know what the procedure was in the late 1920s?  Earhart started flying in '28, as I recall.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:33:31 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      The Noonan Project

From the SSA Web site:

>> The Social Security Administration (SSA) began life as the
>>Social Security Board (SSB). The SSB was created at the
>>moment President Roosevelt inked his signature on the Social
>>Security Act (August 14, 1935 at 3:30 p.m.). The SSB was an
>>entirely new entity, with no staff, no facilities and no budget. The
>>initial personnel were donated from existing agencies, and a
>>temporary budget was obtained from Harry Hopkins and the
>>Federal Emergency Relief Administration. Frances Perkins ,
>>Secretary of Labor, offered one of her Assistant Secretaries,
>>Arthur Altmeyer, to be an initial Board member, and she even
>>gave her high-backed red-leather executive chair to Altmeyer
>>since the SSB had no furniture. The Board itself consisted of
>>three presidentially appointed executives and such staff as they
>>needed to hire.

**************************************************************

From Ric

Sounds like it was probably a while before they got everybody n the country signed up.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:40:14 EDT
From:         Jim Tierney
Subject:      The Noonan Project

Ric- Your response to my last shows a little confusion.

Both  covers/envelopes have exactly the same dates. Starting at Midway - Aug 16 then dispatched from Wake on Aug 21- then the official US Post Office Cancellation at Honolulu 23 Aug. at 1:30 PM. Both have the unofficial PAA cachets (two) on them...

The crew is listed as  Capts. Tilton/Sullivan and Jarboe,Canaday,Wright, Webber and Noonan. Flight was made in an S-42 and went SFO-Honolulu-Midway- Wake from Aug 9-17 and returned Wake- Midway-Honolulu-SFO from Aug. 20-28.

Will send copies of pages in mail Monday-Priority. Isnt it amazing  the level of minutiae that we history freaks can look up.

I just discovered that one of my books has the listing of all the S/N s of the aircraft assigned to USS Colorado from 1934 to 1937.

 Jim Tierney
**************************************************************

From Ric

I'm still confused.  So both covers have exactly the same dates, but one is addressed to the Mrs. and one he addresses to himself?  Seems a bit odd.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:52:38 EDT
From:         John Clauss
Subject:      No Land Club Offensive

(Note from Ric: John has been on all four TIGHAR expeditions to Niku)

To the "No land club",

Let me try to explain Niku to you in a different way.  I have lived in the Sierras for twenty five years. My house backs up to the National Forest and I walk through it regularly.  Think about how you would walk through any heavily overgrown territory.  I use the trails and open meadows, generally avoiding dense vegetation and inaccessible areas unless there is a good reason to go through them. How would you hike when faced with dense vegetation, high temps and high humidity?  People usually take the path of least resistance.

Look at the list of visitors and you will note that  all of them (maybe excepting the villagers) had a specific job to do.  So how do you deal with that?  Go to the site, cut you way in (if necessary), accomplish your task and get out.   The climate and the vegetation tend to discourage anything but casual exploration.  Remember it is a long and difficult day just to walk around the island on the beach without venturing into the bush.  We know this from experience.  Our teams have spent more time searching Niku than anyone but the Gilbertese.  I have seen team members, exhausted and drenched in sweat laying  on coral rubble after having cut through a hundred feet of Scavola.  This is not something that anybody does without good reason.  For one thing it takes at least a quart of water per hour to maintain someone  working strenuously and you have to carry it where ever you go.  Water has been known to be a precious commodity in these parts. We have spent most all our time actively searching for evidence relating to AE and still do not have a handle on large portions of the interior of Niku.  I don't think that you can go through the list of visitors and find anyone who does.  Despite the way you characterize the island these territories are not small; access and working conditions are difficult at best.

You tell me how much energy the residents of the island would expend on exploring the difficult access areas and who, if anyone, they would tell about discoveries and what would seem important to them.

Some of us also believe remnants of the Electra may be on the reef or in the lagoon, but there is no way to rule out finding substantial pieces on land either.

John Clauss  #142
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:58:43 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Cable investigation

(Note from Ric:  I sent Vern an intact specimen of the cable for destructive testing.  Here is his intial report.)

The insulating layer and the jacket of the cable are decomposed to a far greater degree than I had imagined.  About all I could do with them was to subject them to an "ordeal by fire" to try to make then talk -- to say something about what they had once been.

The insulating layer (dielectric) burns in a manner not unlike rubber.  It produces the typical odor of burning natural rubber. There is no indication of the gummy, sticky residue when the flame is extinguished.  That does not seem surprising in view of the present hard, brittle nature of the material.  But there is enough of whatever causes the typical "burning rubber" smell left to be unmistakable.

The jacket material burns in similar manner but produces a very different odor.  The odor is characteristic of synthetic rubber such as neoprene.  Neoprene was developed during the early part of WWII.  Among other things, it was widely used in the jackets of electrical wire due to its resistance to oils and chemicals which made it a better choice than natural rubber.

The wrapping of the stranded center conductor has stood up very well relative the other organic materials.  I think it may not be cotton but it is certainly a plant fiber of some kind.  When burned, it doesn't smell right for cotton but does burn in a very similar manner.  There is no indication of any synthetic material possibly mixed with plant fibers -- nothing there that melts prior to burning, or that solidifies when the flame is extinguished.  It burns to an ash that promptly disintegrates and leaves a simple charred end when extinguished.

The material of the "boot" that appears to be shrunk on where the cable enters the connector remains unidentified.  Whatever this is, it has stood up better than the rubber parts.  It still has a little flexibility.  Naturally, I tried burning a piece of it. It does burn although not well. but I am not able to identify the odor.  It's too thin to be any sort of molded boot so if it looks like a shrink-fit, it probably is.  I'm continuing to try to dissolve it in something.  This might provide some kind of clue.  If I am correct in believing the jacket to be synthetic rubber, that appears to say it was made after 1940.  I can not date the earliest usage of shrink-fit materials but I think that also indicates a later date.  It may not be from the AE's Electra after all.

One further observation.  The open weave of the shielding and the small diameter wire used (0.007") along with a stranded center conductor and natural rubber insulation says, to me, that the cable was designed for flexibility.

I still have samples of each of the parts of the cable if we think of something else we want to do with them.

Vern
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:19:03 EDT
From:         Jerry Sawyer
Subject:      Re: Thomas Devine

I may have missed information about this before, so please excuse if this is a repeat.  You're probably familiar with Thomas Devine, who lives not too far from me, and his earlier book "EYEWITNESS:  The Amelia Earhart Incident".  He claims to have seen her Electra in 1944 on Saipan.  Sounds like something to take with a huge grain of salt, but there are several respected persons who seem to believe him.  The main reason I'm writing, however (aside from getting your opinion on Devine's work) is that a recent newspaper article concerning Devine quotes a William Morgan as saying:  "I am convinced Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan were alive after 1938....I've found some information in the last six weeks that leads in a different direction [from Saipan]".  Has this person been in touch with you?  If not, is this someone you would like to talk to? He also lives not too far from me and I'd be willing to approach him if it makes sense to you.

Thanks.  Keep up the good work, gang.  Lots of great material coming across my computer desk.

Jerry
***************************************************************
From Ric

>Sounds like something to take with a huge grain of salt, but there are
>several respected persons who seem to believe him.

Respected by whom?  Devine claims to have seen Earhart's plane flown by the U.S. military on Saipan in 1944.  He says he later saw it removed from a hangar and burned by U.S. Marines at Aslito Airfield on Saipan.  Trouble is, Aslito was captured by the Army.  The Marines were never there.  And all the hangars were destroyed in the course of the battle.  Like all of the Saipan stories, Devine's relies entirely upon unsubstantiated recollections which track poorly with known fact.

William Morgan has not been in touch with me.  It would be interesting to know what information he has come upon which leads him "in a different direction". Typically, conspiracy buffs take a quotation or excerpt from a document out of context, put their own fantastical interpretation on it, and hold it up as evidence of dark doings.  On the other hand, maybe Mr. Morgan has stumbled upon something significant.  If he's a legitimate researcher he'll be happy to share it with you.

What the heck.  Go for it.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:12:04 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      New Procedure

With the considerable volume of information parading across this forum daily and piling up in the Earhartforum archive (which everyone should now be able to access), it becomes increasingly important that the individual messages get tagged in such a way that it's relatively easy to see at a glance what they're about.

I've been trying to batch them in general categories (such as The Noonan Project, or Cable ID, etc.) but it strikes me that more individualized information is needed in the titles.  For example, if you remember that some time ago someone posted a message about Fred Noonan's early life, you won't want to wade through 3,000 "The Noonan Project" postings to find it.  At the same time, space limitations compel us to keep the message titles short.

Here's what I'll do.  For each posting that comes in, I'll assign a general category, abbreviated where possible (for example: Noonan Proj.) followed by a word or two describing the invidiual content of the message (for example: early life).  That should help.  It will help me if you set up the subject line of your posting that way to begin with.

Although only a few months old, this forum is already a powerful international research engine.  We have a responsibilty to make sure that the good work that is done here is easily accessible to anyone who is interested in the truths we are uncovering.  I'll welcome any suggestions for improving the system. 

Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:31:18 EDT
From:         Jerry Ellis
Subject:      Cable ID: materials history

Vern Klein wrote:

> The jacket material burns in similar manner but produces a very
> different odor.  The odor is characteristic of synthetic rubber
> such as neoprene.  Neoprene was developed during the early part
> of WWII.  Among other things, it was widely used in the jackets
> of electrical wire due to its resistance to oils and chemicals
> which made it a better choice than natural rubber.

Sounds like an old pro doing this work!

A check in a text on industrial chemistry reveals that the author, Philip J Chenier, "Survey of Industrial Chemistry" 2nd Ed. VCH Publishers, Inc. (ISBN: 1-56081-622-8) on page 361 claims that "In 1931 DuPont introduced the first synthetic elastomer, polychloroprene )(Neoprene, Duprene), and Thiokol Corporation introduced a polysulfide rubber called Thiokol.  Polychloroprene, although every expensive compared to polyiosprene, has superior age resistance and chemical inertness.  It is also nonflammable."

For the non-chemists in the group, polyisoprene is natural rubber and like the other natural materials such as plant fiber, (cellulose) contains no chlorine.  Note that Neoprene however, does contain chlorine so that should be easily identified which should clearly establish if the one you suspect is synthetic is actually Neoprene.  Also, the date it was introduced would not rule out Neoprene being a part of the cable in 1937.  That should be checked but I assume the author is correct.

> The material of the "boot" that appears to be shrunk on where the
> cable enters the connector remains unidentified.  Whatever this
> is, it has stood up better than the rubber parts.  It still has a
> little flexibility.  Naturally, I tried burning a piece of it.
> It does burn although not well. but I am not able to identify the
> odor.  It's too thin to be any sort of molded boot so if it looks
> like a shrink-fit, it probably is.  I'm continuing to try to
> dissolve it in something.  This might provide some kind of clue.
>
> If I am correct in believing the jacket to be synthetic rubber,
> that appears to say it was made after 1940.  I can not date the
> earliest usage of shrink-fit materials but I think that also
> indicates a later date.  It may not be from the AE's Electra
> after all.

No mention of shrink-fit materials is mentioned in the index of the text but my experience coincides with yours. I suspect that those were introduced much later, maybe, 50's or 60's.

Perhaps infrared spectroscopy could shed some light on the composition of those materials.

Jerry W. Ellis                      Carbohydrates, polymers and
Professor of Chemistry              Chemical Education
Department of Chemistry
Eastern Illinois University
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:53:44 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Indigestion

I'm posting this exchange in the hope that it will help others who may be having a similar problem.
**************************************************************

From dr914

Ric sorry to bother you with this, but several times I have tried to get the list in a digest form using the standard lingo but my response is that  I am not a subscriber to the forum.  What am I doing wrong?

*************************************************************

From Ric

Reviewing the list of subscribers to the forum I find no dr914@mxxxxx.com but I do find dr914@Axxxxxxx.com who, I suspect, is you.

The listserv computer is a mindless beast.  It only recognizes you by the name you used when you signed on.  I'll betcha that if you send a command to

listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com

from your dr914@Axxxxxx.COM address saying

SET EARHARTFORUM DIGEST

you'll meet with success.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:07:10 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Indigestion: New address

Here's another (or perhaps the same) problem.
**************************************************************
From Sigrun

I sent the command to receive the digest but the message comes back with an error message that I am not subscribed to the forum list (but I am!!).  The problem is that my e-mail address has changed since I first subscribed.  My new address is sortmann@cambridgeassociates.com. My old address was sortmann@cambridg.com.  Can you change this so I can get the digest?  Thanks!

     Sigrun
***************************************************************

From Ric

You're right.  The computer knows you as sortmann@cambridg.com, but you're still receiving the messages so there must be some sort of forwarding mechanism in place.  However, you apparently can not now send messages from the old address, SO.... I'll sign your old address off the forum and sign you up using the new address.  That should enable you to put through the digest command.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:25:38 EDT
From:         Amanda Dunham
Subject:      The Noonan Proj: AE's license

Sandy Campbell wrote:

>Speaking of records and such.., I just had a thought, (yes. another
>one..) To obtain a pilot's license back then, didn't you have to be
>fingerprinted or federally "ID'ed", ..?? or anything like that??
>************************************************************
>
>From Ric
>
>Not sure.  That's certainly not the case today.  Anybody know what the
>procedure was in the late 1920s?  Earhart started flying in '28, as I recall.
*************************************************************

Earhart received her license around 1921-23.  It was granted by the FAI: "Federation Aeronautique Internationale" - as near as I can remember.  (I'm writing from work so I can't refer to my AE book collection; plus I took Spanish all through high school, so French is always an iffy thing with me anyway.)  For certain:  Earhart learned to fly in L.A. in the early twenties, by '28 she was in Boston.

There was more than one agency granting pilot's licenses in the twenties. FAI was the best known and had the most clout at the time.  According to my grandfather, you went to whichever agency was most available in your area. Requirements depended on the agency.  Sometimes your "license" was a certificate that you were a graduate from one of the reputable flight schools.  By the early thirties, the government had gotten more particular, but it was still easy to bypass the system.

If we had a clue when/where/if Fred learned to fly, it would help.  If indeed, he was a pilot, it's entirely possible that he was one of those who never bothered with a license at all...

Besos para Mamacita,
Amanda
***************************************************************

From Ric

There is no indication that Fred was a pilot.  His bag was navigation.  As I understand it, during his days at Pan American the protocol was that the airplane's crew was made up of dedicated specialists - pilots, navigators, radio operators.  Later (about the time Fred left the company) the airline began to evolve toward more of an apprentice system where new hires learned radio and navigation and worked their way up to eventually become the star of the show - the pilot.  In Fred's heyday, as the master navigator, he got pretty much equal billing with the big name airplane drivers like Eddie Musick.  No need for him to worry about becoming a pilot. 

I'll ask our resident airline captains, including former Pan Am pilot Bill Moss, to verify or correct my impressions.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:45:56 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      AE Mechanic McKneely Dead

Ruckins "Bo" McKneely Jr., 89, died April 16th.

He was Earhart's main mechanic.

Detailed obituary can be found on washingtonpost.com.

Interesting quote from obit: "The only thing I am sorry about is that I didn't go with her.  I just feel that another pair of eyes would have been all they needed and I could have been up there controlling the fuel flow to the engines to get the most range out of the aircraft and probably gotten more time out of it."
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:48:52 EDT
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Noonan Proj:  AE's license

Ric wrote:

> Earhart started flying in '28, as I recall. 

You recall wrong.  Earhart started taking flying lessons in 1921.  She was granted flying certificate #6017 by the Federation Aeronautique Internationale (FAI) on May 16, 1923.  On May 1, 1930 she received a Transport Pilot's License (#5716) from the US Dept. of Commerce.  Don't know the procedures for sure, but I'd be really surprised if fingerprints were required.  Besides, Fred wasn't a pilot.

**************************************************************

From Ric

Uh, you're right. (That was a test.)
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:00:42 EDT
From:         Roger Kelley
Subject:      T. Devine: What he saw?

Thomas Devine, (EYEWITNESS:  The Amelia Earhart Incident), if in fact he saw a complete aircraft on Saipan, most likely was looking at a Kawasaki Ki-56.  It is very similar to the Electra and to the untrained eye might appear to be the same.  However, I doubt that our armed forces left any thing intact during the pre-invasion bombardment of Saipan and the subsequent battle.

Let's keep searching.

Roger Kelley
2112

*************************************************************

From Ric

The Kawasaki Ki-56 was a copy of the Lockheed Model 14 (same as the Hudson). Another possibility could be the Tachikawa Ki-54, which is our prime alternative candidate to the Electra as the plane shown in the wreck photo. As an intact aircraft, however, it would be a bit harder to mistake for the Lockheed.  It had a single tail.

Of course, if Devine really saw something fly over that he later recalled as being an Electra, it's just as likley that it was a Beech C-45.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:29:39 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: parent search

Just a quick note...  I've not given up on Fred & family being listed in the Chicago area in 1900.  I've recently discovered that many of those census indices, (Soundex) were quite incomplete.  What this means is several days going through the microfilmed, actual census sheets..., line-by-line...    And then again, oftentimes, entire streets never made it into the book at all; (census taker gets distracted...).

The NJ 1900 census is yet to be discounted as well. Time permitting, I will try and get these done next week.

Sandy #2110
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:06:06 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Cable ID: rubber

While checking to see when synthetic rubber first appeared, some interesting stuff turned up.  These are excerpts from the Grolier Electronic Encyclopedia, 1991 edition.

No practical means of producing synthetic rubber was devised until Germany, deprived of access to Asian rubber during World War I, undertook limited production of a synthetic rubber.  Interest in synthetic rubber, however, evaporated after the war, and subsequent economic depression discouraged most further effort. In 1941-42 the United States, similarly faced with the loss of Asian rubber, undertook a program--second in scale only to the nuclear-bomb project--to develop a supply of this vital strategic material.  By 1945, U.S. plants were producing 1 million U.S. tons of synthetic rubber a year.

Neither natural nor synthetic rubber can be considered better in quality than the other;  each has its own properties and prices, and the manufacturer chooses according to the needs of the product.  In the treads of car tires, for example, the standard synthetic rubber, styrene-butadiene, is used for good wear and grip.  In larger tires, in which heat generation is a problem, natural rubber is used.  The larger the tire and the tougher the use, the higher the content of natural rubber: aircraft tires are 100% natural rubber.

***** And an interesting bit about natural rubber *******

Until the late 19th century all rubber was natural rubber extracted haphazardly from trees scattered in the jungles of South America.  It was expensive and the supply was uncertain. During the 1860s the British government conceived the idea of transporting rubber trees to the British colonies in Asia so that the trees could be grown on a large scale on organized plantations.  The most promising rubber source was the Brazilian Para rubber tree, Hevea brasiliensis.  Because of Brazil's legal restrictions the British government hired Henry Wickham, then in Brazil, to transport some seeds of the tree to England.  This he did in 1876;  the seeds were germinated in England, and the young seedlings were shipped to Ceylon, Malaysia, and Singapore.  All the natural rubber produced today in Asia--90% of the world's total production--comes from trees that are descendants of Wickham's seeds.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:46:20 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: piloting & peeing

I guess one wouldn't have to really have to have alot of experience to do so..., but I've often wondered...;  who flew the plane when AE had a call from mother nature?
**************************************************************

From Ric

Not having been there, this is supposition but I'd guess that she let "Sperry" hold the course, monitored by Fred who, as you point out, should certainly be able to manage straight and level.

The standard Electra had a toilet back in the tail and I've always assumed NR16020 was no exception.  There has been reference to AE having a custom-made (fur-lined even) device to permit the use of a relief tube from the cockpit but my guess is that this was for the Vega which she flew alone.  With the Sperry auto-pilot and Fred aboard, I can't imagine that she'd bother with such a thing.  Besides, with Fred riding up front most of the time it would be a bit awkward. (Say, Fred, what's that over there?)
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:55:00 EDT
From:         Ann
Subject:      Bones: speculation

I've been wondering about the bones Gallagher reportedly found on Gardner Island.  Is the following scenario possible?  Noonan,either injured or ill,is left under the ren tree while AE goes in search of water,food,possible inhabitants,etc.  She parishes in the dense foliage where her remains are covered with the vegetation.  The shoe parts that were found throw this theory off for me.  She would not have been walking around without her shoes on I realize.  Perhaps Noonan (if the bones were his) did not bury her.Would AE have known for certain that the island was uninhabited at the time? Just a thought.
Ann #2101

**************************************************************

From Ric

The scene described by Gallagher, and supplemented by what we later found, does invite speculation about just what happened there.  Like a crime scene, a reasoned analysis of the evidence may lead to the discovery of more evidence.

I agree that the apparent presence of two pair of shoes argues that nobody went wanderng off.  That's not a place where a European (as we're known out there) would care to go barefoot.  To my mind, what wasn't found is as interesting as what was found.  Shoes for two people, but the remains of only one.  A sextant box, but no sextant.  A small fire, some dead birds, a dead turtle, and part of a can label; not exactly evidence of long-time survival. No sign of any attempt to build a shelter.

Would they have known for sure that the island was uninhabited? Probably not, but I would think that they'd suspect that from flying over and not seeng anybody.  As rescue became less likely, would they have tried to explore the island to see what they could find to help them survive?  Seems logical. Maybe the campsite on Aukaraime is only the last in a series of little camps as they made their way around the island. Maybe the paucity of artifacts at the site is due to the fact that they travelled light.  If this conjecture is accurate, then what went wrong that made this the last camp?  If the bones are Fred's and AE's shoes are there, where is Amelia?  If Fred is strong enough to bury her, why is he not strong enough to move on?  Puzzling.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:58:33 EDT
From:         Bill Moss
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: Pan Am navigators

As for the Noonan paragraph,you are essentially correct.  He definitely was never a pilot. As far as I can research he was the only 'navigator only' that PANAM had and that only for the Pacific proving flights. It is unclear when he left PANAM but the published accounts of Captains Brock and Masland show them as pilot/navigators from the beginning of scheduled operations in November 1935.

By the time early 1941 I got to the Pacific Division the basic crew was Captain, First Officer (pilot), Second Officer (pilot/navigator), Third Officer (pilot/ student navigator), Flight Engineers, Radio Operators, etc. As an aside, on my first Transpacific trip to Singapore I was Fifth Officer in charge of mail sacks !

During the war with the expansion  of military contract operations we did have non-pilot navigators but at the end PANAM went back to pilot navigators but with the advent of Inertial Navigation and now GPS there is no navigator as such,all navigation being done in the cockpit.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:13:17 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Cable ID: IR spectrometer?

To: Jerry Ellis

Do you perchance have access to an IR spectrometer?
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:21:50 EDT
From:         Tom Cook
Subject:      They are hard to see from the air!!

The AP is reporting that an a/c that crashed in December, was found April 19  by two hunters, at Ft. Leonard Wood, MO.  The CAP had searched, and one pilot continued to search to no avail.

TC
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:34:38 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: What Car Is This?

Okay gang.  Time's up.  The most thorough and convincing identification of Fred Noonan's car, as shown in a (satellite?) photo taken on May 20, 1937, is...

(the envelope please)

...Richard "Skeet" Gifford, TIGHAR 1371C
 
**************************************************************

There is a high probability that the car is a 1937 Terraplane Series 72 Super convertible. 
Wheel base 117 inches.
Engine 212 cu in, 96 hp at 3,900 rpm.
The convertible probably weighed about 3,000 pounds.
By comparison, the 1937 Ford V8 convertible probably weighed about 2900 pounds and had 85 hp.
Engine number 250,XXX, Chassis number 72-XXX.
It had hydraulic brakes and a relatively high (for the time) cruising speed.
The Super convertible probably sold for just under $900.
83,436 Terraplanes were produced in 1937, which was the last year of production under the Terraplane name.
The other possible candidate is a 1937 Hudson, but the tail lights and side hood vents are not consistent with that mark.

Matching components include:
Two tail lights (only one tail light on DeLuxe)
The Hudson had "conical" tail lights while the Terraplane had "domed".
Two trunk handles
Shape and opening angle of trunk
License plate mounted on center of trunk
Shape of trunk lid support
Headlight pylon attached to hood
Split, V windshield
Vent wing window was unique to the Super, and is barely visible in the picture.
Prominent hood ornament
Exposed door hinges at forward side of door
Shape and location of side hood "vents" suggests Terraplane rather than Hudson.
Shape of fenders with no front-mounted parking lights
Shape and location of rear bumper overriders
Hood release handle on side of hood (OK, use your imagination)

I found a picture of the convertible, but unfortunately the top is down, so I can't verify the shape of the back glass.

References:
Collectible Automobile, February, 1988, p 20-21
Special-Interest Autos, July/August 1993, p 56-57
Motor's Auto Repair Manual, 11th Edition, 1935-1948, p 460-490
The New Encyclopedia of Motorcars, 1885 to the Present, E. P. Dutton, NY, p 612

Sidebar: A friend of mine found a picture of AE with her 1936 Terraplane DeLuxe. It isn't much of a stretch to imagine how FN bought a 1937. Incidentally, both AE and Lindbergh owned Franklins, presumably because their air-cooled engines were similar to airplane engines.

We must rule out the 1936 Terraplane because on it, the headlight pylon is vertical and attaches to the inboard section of the front fender. The photograph clearly shows a horizontal headlight pylon attaching to the cowl just aft of the grill.

While less obvious, the side vents on the hood have a different shape in 1936. There is a center trim strip that extends forward and aft of the vent itself. This is not evident in the picture.

The process of identifying the car went something like this:
The car could not be newer than 1937 for obvious reasons.
The "potato" styling was popular for a very short period of time, specifically, 1936 through 1937.
GM cars were rejected because most had parking lights mounted on top of the front fenders.
The Chrysler family of cars were eliminated because they all had flat, one-piece windshields.
The really tough choice was between Hudson and Terraplane. My long-time friend (we went to Kindergarten together) and author, Paul Swan, came to my rescue here. He found published documentation of the difference between the Terraplane and Hudson tail lights. Fortunately, the picture shows the tail lights quite clearly.

Given the accident, it would be safe to say this is a new car. Keep in mind that AE owned the less expensive 1936 Terraplane Series 61 DeLuxe. What do you want to bet that FN's first Terraplane was the same model? He liked it so well that he went to the top of the line for his 1937. Hmmm?

Skeet Gifford

**************************************************************

Runner-up honors go to Jim Dix, TIGHAR 2132:

Consensus at our club meeting Tuesday night was 1936 Terraplane.

Terraplane was a "small but powerful" car built by Hudson from 1932 to 1938. A sporty car for our man Fred, even sounds like it was made for a pilot!

Jim Dix 2132
***************************************************************

Thanks also to Susie and Sandy who took stabs at it this toughie.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:58:25 EDT
From:         Jerry Ellis
Subject:      Cable ID: spectrometer yes

To Vern

> Do you perchance have access to an IR spectrometer?

Actually yes.  I have, as yet, no personal experience with polymer identification by ir but we have several sampling techinques available in our department including KBr pellet and refectance techniques.  One colleague worked in industry on the ir analyses of polyethylenes, I just have not had the need to learn the reflectance technique.  It would take some trial runs to bring myself up to speed on the process but it could be done easily enough.

I thought that it would be just as well to wait for the results from Beldon in Richmond, IN before launching an effort in ir spectroscopy.

Do you have a plan in mind?
                                        jerry e.

--
Jerry W. Ellis                      Carbohydrates, polymers and
Professor of Chemistry              Chemical Education
Department of Chemistry
Eastern Illinois University
***************************************************************

From Ric

You guys can feel free to coordinate the details by direct email.  It's less cumbersome than doing it over the forum and it will make the rest of us feel less stupid.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:54:30 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: Breakthrough?

Jackie Ferrari, TIGHAR 2091 in Scotland, may have hit paydirt in our search for Fred Noonan's true birthplace and living relatives in the female line (essential for mtDNA testing, should that need come up).

To recap briefly:
Tradition holds that Fred was born in Chicago in 1893 or 1894, but the only Fred Noonan that appears in the 1900 U.S. Census for Illinois was born in 1899 in Warren Co. 180 miles from Chicago.  Sandy Campbell's research has established that that Fred Noonan's middle initial was C. (for Crescent).  So that's not our Fred.

New results:
 Jacki Ferrari has tracked down the records for the British merchant sailing ship Crompton which, legend held, Fred Noonan had served aboard as a young man.  Sure enough, in 1910, there was a Fred Noonan, age 18, in the ship's crew.  That would put his birth circa 1892.

But there's more.  Jackie has now obtained a copy of a birth certificate and has contacted the family in Britain.  Here is her report.

***************************************************************
From Jackie Ferrari

Paul Greenfield (the family contact) assured me tonight that the family is quite happy for me to disclose the following.

Joseph Noonan was born in Roscommon, Ireland and he married Clara Naomi Greenfield on 21 March, 1878 at St. John de Sepulchre, Norwich.

They had eight children as follows;

Clara Jemima Noonan- born; 21st May, 1879
Maude Louise Noonan - born; 10th October, 1881
Betty Noonan - born; 5th June, 1883
Ada Blanche Noonan- born 2nd July, 1885
Florence Ethel Noonan - born; 23rd February, 1887
Joseph Edgar Noonan - born; Dec, 1888
Mabel May Noonan - born; 21st January, 1890
Frederick Joseph Noonan - born; 14 July, 1891

The birth cert. I have gives his birthday as 14 June, 1891.  This is the only FJN born in England during the years1891 - 1895 incl. They have the same parents. So there has to be an error. Paul's info has come from baptismal records. We are checking it out.

I hope Paul is right and that the error is in the copy of the birth cert. because this would remove a discrepancy of 6 days arising from the crew agreement of the CROMPTON.

Unfortunately nobody can remember anything of the family emigrating. I have been getting a search done of emigration records but the cost is prohibitive so I am putting that particular line of enquiry on hold just now. I have been told I would be better to search Ellis Island records.

The local newspaper is doing a story in Norwich and I am hoping that will jog somebody's memory.

I looked at SSDI records but none of these match though some are pretty close.

The census would surely be our best bet. Could somebody do one for Illinois.? Fred gives his home as Illinois on the Crew agreement.

And this Fred's father was a musician!!

Have we nailed the elusive Fred?

Sincerely

Jackie Ferrari
***************************************************************
From Ric

Sounds awfully good.  Might the discrepancy in the birth vs. baptismal records be that the child was christened when he was just one month old? My guess is that the family didn't emigrate.  Young Fred either ran away to sea or perhaps went to sea quite respectably as an apprentice seaman (cadet) in the merchant navy. (AP, Jul2, 1937, Oakland, CA - Twenty-two years of ocean travel as a navigator preceded his lengthy servce as a flyer. Seven times he rounded Cape Horn _ three times in wind-jammers before completion of the Panama Canal. He went to sea at the age of 15.) That would have been circa 1906. By 1910 he is calling Chicago home and used that address when he signed on to the Crompton.  I'll be surprised if he turns up in the 1900 census or at Ellis Island.  This kid is a sailor with a good head on his shoulders who rises to become a top-notch nautical navigator. Circa 1930, at age 39, he makes the switch to aviation with a job at Pan American.  Pan Am is not going to hire a common seaman who is handy with a sextant.  By this time Fred has to have been an officer with some real credentials.  That should be traceable.

His years at sea could be hard to track, but it should be possible.  I wonder if he ever became a U.S. citizen?  It should be easy to check U.S. naturalization records. He also had to have a passport.

Let's have some other ideas.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:13:17 EDT
From:         Dick Pingrey
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: Pan Am cockpit jobs

Shortly before I was employed by Pan Am in 1967 they changed the requirements for the various cockpit positions.  Until shortly after 1960 there were five cockpit positions, Captain, Copilot, Relief Pilot, Flight Engineer and Navigator.  Some time earlier there was also a Radio Operator position I believe.  The pilot positions all required that the individual hold a Commercial or Airline Transport Pilot rating.  The Flight Engineer and Navigators seldom held pilot ratings but they were FAA Flight Engineer and Navigator ratings.  Navigators and Flight Engineers did not have bid rights to the pilot positions prior to the 1960s.  Once the change was made all these positions were held by pilots.  Hiring was done on pilot qualifications and the Flight Engineers and Navigator positions were temporary while the pilot earned enough seniority to move up to the Copilot and eventually Captain position.  Most pilots hired after the mid 1960 did not hold a Navigator or Flight Engineer rating when hired by Pan Am but were trained by Pan Am for the rating after they were employed.  Fred Noonan, a Navigator, may or may not have had a pilot's license but it would not have been a requirement for employment as a Navigator by Pan Am.

Dick Pingrey
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:13:35 EDT
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Bones: speculation; env. hazards

What's the flora & fauna like on Niku, Ric ?    Anything poisonous to unwary "Europeans"

Simon Ellwood   #2120
**************************************************************

From Ric

Niku is a deceptively benign environment.  No endemic disease, no mosquitoes, no snakes, no lions and tigers and bears.  The rats are little brown Polynesian rats.  Kind of cute.  The crabs are big and scary-looking, but not really dangerous unless you're dumb enough to mess with them.  There are some hornet-like flying insects that are best avoided, but by and large there's nothing on land that you need to worry much about.  Out in the water it's Shark City, but most are the curious, but not all that agressive Black Tip Reef variety.  Think of a five-foot long Jack Russell Terrier with fins.  Once in a while a Pelagic White Tip or a Tiger will stop by to see what's shakin', but that's a rarity.  There are Stone Fish on the reef flat and they can be a real hazard if you're stupid enough to be out there barefoot.  They're virtually impossible to see and if you step on one you're going to die - very soon.  A more insidious hazard is the presence of certain types of fish which are relatively easy to catch and good to eat, except at particular times of the year when their flesh is extremely toxic to humans.

Back on land, none of the naturally occurring plants are known to be poisonous, but none except the coconut is obviously edible either.  The big problem for people is the one/two punch of abundant heat and scarce fresh water.  Temperatures are routinely in the 90s (F) and, if you're sheltered from the breeze and in a place where the sand or coral rubble is reflecting the heat back up at you, the temperature can soar to something over 120 (that's as high as our thermometers would go).  I've been in hot places from Arizona to New Guinea and I've never fried like I have on Niku.  With enough time and muscle and dynamite it's possible to dig a well on Niku and get water that you can (but would rather not) drink.  The best source of drinking water is rainfall caught in whatever you have to catch it in.  The Gilbertese settlers used metal tanks and built concrete cisterns.  A 10,000 gallon cistern (a watertight, rectangular concrete building with a metal roof and eaves that drain into the building) still stands on the island - full of water.  Trouble is, sometimes it doesn't rain for days, or weeks.

Lastly, as in most tropical climates, bacteria grow really well on Nikumaroro. When we're working on the island we all carry little packets with alcohol swabs.  Nick or scratch yourself and you had better clean it and protect it right away or you'll have an infection faster than you can say incapacitation. Whack yourself on the living coral of the reef-flat and you have a bigger problem.  An immediate  swabbing with hydrogen peroxide will generally kill the critters, but you'll carry a scar for a long time (the voice of experience).

In the end, I think that surviving for more than a week or two if marooned on Niku would be a tightrope act of being smart, careful and lucky.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:15:14 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Bones: speculation; radio

Assuming AE did fly over the island before trying to set down & assuming her radio was still functioning, why wouldn't she have tried to communicate the fact they had found a landfall, even if she was uncertain that anyone was receiving her broadcast.   If this scenario is at all valid, she had to know that her last, best chance of being heard was while she was still airborne.   It has always puzzled me that none of the last, authenticated, radio contacts with her gave any suggestion as to her intentions should they run out of fuel & nothing approximating an SOS message was transmitted.   Not claiming any expertise regarding the type of radio equipment installed on the Electra, I must also assume it was possible that by the time she reached Gardner island she could have been out of transmitting range of the Itasca & Howland island (the Itasca did seem to make an abrupt decision to sail northwest of Howland shortly after their last contact with her, which would further increase the distance from Gardner so that even if she had transmitted from Gardner, they might have been unable to pick her up), however it is of interest that many of the unauthenticated claims by other sources contain suggestions that she was "down", yet no contacts were reported by any of the occupied territories in closer proximity to Gardner ( although I don't believe anyone could ever be certain what the Japanese occupied islands did or did not hear, as they simply issued blanket denials they'd had any contact or communication with the Earhart flight).    I believe I did read somewhere that a naval officer in Hawaii "confirmed" that monitored Japanese radio traffic contained no information about Earhart.

don neumann
***************************************************************

From Ric

Let's remember that just because nobody heard anything doesn't mean that she didn't send anything.  And there are allegations that people DID hear something.  Fred Goerner claimed to have seen, in a classified U.S. Navy file in 1965, a record of a communication reportedly heard by Nauru radio on 6210 KCs at 10:30 a.m. (Nauru time) on July 2, "Land in sight ahead."  When the file was later declassified and released to the public, the message was missing.  Goerner speculated that someone had assumed that the message was a corruption of the transmission heard by Nauru at 10:30 P.M. the night before as the flight passed to the south of the island, "Ship in sight ahead,"  and had deleted it from the file.  That would be a very unusual thing for an archivist to do.  Yet Goerner said that his notes and those of his co- researcher Ross Game agreed about the wording of the entry seen in 1965 (they had not been permitted to take photocopies).

Let's assume that Earhart was headed southeastward on the 157/337 line of position at the time of the last transmission heard by Itasca at 08:43 local or 20:13 GCT (at which time she said she was swithcing to 6210 KC). And let's say she was (as we have speculated) far enough south of course to miss seeing Howland or Baker (about 55 nm).  That would put her 300 nm from Nikumaroro at that time. Making her best economical cruise speed of 130 kts, she should come within sight of the island at roughly 22:30 GCT which is (you guessed it) 10:30 a.m. in Nauru.  Coincidence?  Perhaps. No other record of the message Goerner says he saw in 1965 has ever turned up.

There were also well-publicized reports of SOS calls heard on 3105 KCs by two ham operators in California, Walter McMennamy and Karl Pearson, almost immediately upon the announcement of her failure to arrive at Howland.  The reliablity of those reports is, in my opinion, highly questionable. McMenanny was a publicity hound and, at least in later life, a complete whacko who alleged all kinds of secret and absurd government involvement in the Earhart flight.

As for the possibility of anyone in the Japanese Mandate hearing Earhart on the radio - as you note - nothing was ever reported.  That's not too surprising given that the few radios which may have been present in the Marshall's in 1937 had no reason to be tuned to Earhart's frequencies.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:23:21 EDT
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: note in bottle

I was searching the Net and came across a Web page about the discovery in 1996 of a "Noonan note in a bottle" on the Washington coast.

Presumably this is old news to you, but as I hadn't seen it mentioned anywhere in the forum I just wondered what your opinion was - obviously a fake ?  

Simon Ellwood
**************************************************************

From Ric

Yeah.  We looked into to that little gem back in February.  Here's what I said about it at the time. 

********

It is my opinion that the letter known as the Noonan Document is a hoax, and not a very good one at that.

The most obvious discrepancy is the handwriting.  Existing copies of sentences (as opposed to navigational notations) known to have been written by Noonan are all in a casual but legible cursive hand and are written in pen.  Photos of Noonan taken during the world flight show him with a Parker pen in his shirt pocket (identifiable by the characteristic arrow motif of the clip). The letter found in the bottle is crudely printed in pencil.  The two styles could hardly be more different.

Several factual errors also betray the hoax.  For example, the reference to "the starboard gas tank" shows that the hoaxer was unaware that the Electra had three fuel tanks in each wing plus another six tanks in the cabin.  A ditching should not have ruptured any of the wing tanks, but even if it did, the effect would be insignificant and would certainly not cause the aircraft to sink.  Also, the good luck bracelet he says he just saw was left in New Guinea.

Equally as damning as the factual errors is the melodramatic tone of the letter.  Noonan was an educated professional whose only known comment about Amelia was made in a note he wrote to his wife during the world flight. He said he liked Amelia because she worked as hard as a man.  It is inconceivable that the worshipful, vaguely prurient sentimentalities expressed in the letter in the bottle could have been written by Noonan.  I'd sooner believe that Chuck Yeager speaks in iambic pentameter.

I have expressed these opinions to Mr. Tennant along with other critical points that I can't discuss here without violating the nondisclosure agreement. I have advised him to make the letter public because it has no value other than as an interesting example of the sort of fiction that the Earhart disappearance has inspired over the years.

Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:41:22 EDT
From:         David Kelly
Subject:      Bones: Speculation; small stash?

If the bones were FN and he buried AE....why would he not bury her shoes also?  I dont suppose she brought a spare pair of shoes with her?

A thought on why the sextent box was empty...they were using it to carry food in and perhaps other bits and pieces.  A sextent would not be of much use in survival on an island.  This would mean that the sextent is probably discared somewhere else on the island....the inverted mirror which Gallagher allegedly found could have been taken along as a signalling mirror.

My guess is that if they landed on the reef, then we would find a small stash of discarded bits and pieces on the closest beach where AE and FN sorted out all there belongings separating the things which would be of use in there survival and discarding the rest.

David J Kelly

***************************************************************

From Ric

Well, we know (from photos) that AE had more than one pair of shoes with her on the world flight but we can't be sure about the Lae/Howland leg.  Do you remove somebody's shoes before you bury the body?  Heck, I dunno.  I've never been faced with that decision.

Yes. A sextant box might make a handy carrying case.

A sextant inverting eyepiece is not a mirror.  It looks like a miniature telescope and simply inverts the image when you look through it.

If the airplane was wrecked on the reef, as we speculate, and if AE and FN had access to it after it was wrecked, it seems logical that they would salvage what they could, Robinson Crusoe style.  A base camp on the beach near the wreck site would make sense, from which they might - as you suggest - select what they wanted to take with them on their exploration trip.

Interestingly, when the New Zealand survey party was on the island in late 1938/early 1939 they came upon, somewhere along the shore of Nutiran, something which they took to be the camp of the Norwich City survivors. Hmmm.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:51:59 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Cable ID: materials history

Another question for Belden.  I hope they may know what they were producing over 60 years ago!  If they were producing coaxial type cable in the 30s (presumably with natural rubber dielectric) were they also using natural rubber for the jacket?  When did they go to synthetic rubber for the jacket?

Relative to the "boot" material:  I think Jerry Ellis is right in that we should wait to see what we learn from Belden before seriously considering getting into IR spectroscopy, or other analytical methods on our own.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:10:35 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: synchronicity

> camp of the Norwich City survivors. <

Isn't that a curiously, ironic note...  Jackie's possible Fred is from Norwich  and a ship of the same name runs aground where Fred may have possibly died...     Weird...!

Sandy
***************************************************************
From Ric

I wondered when somebody was going to pick up on that.  Now....anybody got the number for the Psychic Friends Network?
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:33:56 EDT
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: synchronicity; PFN

>anybody got the number for the Psychic Friends Network? 

PFN has filed for bankruptcy.  Word is that none of them saw it coming...
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:55:16 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: psychic

Yes, I wondered when someone would pick up on The Norwich City too.

Another odd thing. Yesterday the Norwich paper phoned to say they had not received the photo of me which they had asked for last week and which I sent a week ago.  They had however received a photo of 'Fred'.  Have I been transformed in the post or is something else afoot??

To paraphrase Mendellsohn perhaps ' I was Fred Noonan.'

J.F
***************************************************************

From Ric

Spooky.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:24:28 EDT
From:         unknown
Subject:      Bones: speculation; nearby natives

I am doing a paper over Amelia and her dissapearance. In one of my sources stated that they found a pair of human forms in bones. And I read on to learn that these bones fit more of the near by native forms. Meaning that the structure was looking like the natives, but I question this! What if Amelia and Fred needed to do the same work as the natives and their bodies took the toll? What if, yeah, they lived with the natives and when they died the natives found it "right" to put them back on the island where they were first found? Just thinking about this and stuff.

***************************************************************

From Ric

Well no.  The bones were not like those of the nearby natives, and, no, there is no chance that Earhart and/or Noonan ever lived with the natives.  If you'd like to learn more about what is known I'd sugeest that you look on our website at www.tighar.org
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:41:44 EDT
From:         Ann
Subject:      Burial speculation

I have received the project anthology and will spend many hours reading and rereading it.It's a treasure chest of information.Already I am able to visualize the physical features of Niku better.I read the Life magazine (04/01/92,Vol.15#4) article and made note of the burial site features found by TIGHAR in Oct.1991.Mention is made to tiny roots which had entwined a tiny coffin.Now to get to my question.How difficult would it be for an individual to dig a grave, for an adult,on Niku? Speculating that Noonan was the digger and he did not have a shovel,etc.I can imagine it being a very strenuous,hot,thirst inducing task not to mention the emotional aspect.Does one find massive roots when digging.If the grave digger was already in poor condition when beginning the unpleasant task,perhaps a shallow grave was opted for.If so, could the beach crabs have eventually disturbed the grave and in the process have removed a shoe or two? Ann #2101

**************************************************************
From Ric

>How difficult would it be for an individual to dig a grave, for an adult,on
>Niku?

Good question.  Depends entirely upon where you dig.  The beach sand is the easiest, of course.  The coral rubble that covers much of Aukaraime would be very hard digging.  Back in the forest, where the shoes were found, it's mixture of sandy soil and coral rubble.  No doubt about it.  Digging a grave would be hard work.  Doubly so without a shovel.   There would be a natural tendency to make it no deeper than necessary to get the body covered.  I'd be tempted to drag the corpse out to a sandy area, find a natural depression, and then pile sand over it.  Keeping the crabs away would be a real problem. They're great diggers and they live in burrows anyway.  In 1989 we found a big ol' coconut crab living in a burrow at the base of (and probably in) Gallagher's grave.

Last time we were there (Feb./Mar. 1997) we actively considered the possibility that the shoe(s) had been dragged to the surface from an unmarked grave by crabs.  However,  the discovery of the campfire just at the spot where the shoe remnants had ben found earlier, and the fact that the shoe remains included some scraps of what appears to be fire-damaged leather, leads us to suspect that the shoe had lain undisturbed very near where we found it since the time of the fire.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:46:38 EDT
From:         David Kelly
Subject:      Bones: Speculation; eyepiece

I dont suppose then that the inverting eyepiece had a lense they could have
used for starting there fires.....

David J Kelly
***************************************************************

From Ric

Hmmmm.  Not a bad hypothesis.  That could explain why only that piece of the sexant was present at the Aukaraime camp site.
=======================================================
Date:         Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:58:03 EDT
From:         Per
Subject:      gastanks as watercollectors

Have the TIGHAR team or anyone else come across any artifacts from the huge gastanks from the fuselage? According to some old coastguard dude they(of course he didn't know if they were gas tanks or not but it looked like them) were seen on the beach and as far as he could tell was used as water collectors. If I'm not mistaking that is...

Per
***************************************************************

From Ric

We devoted a good portion of the 1991 expedition and almost all of the 1996 expedition to an investigation of that story.  We did, in the end, find the tank seen in 1944 and it was a steel tank from the village, not an airplane fuel tank.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:03:59 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Noonan Proj.:  taxes and specs

Would Fred have paid tax. I'm not familiar with the taxation system in the States. Over here everyone gets a National Insurance number; is that the same as your SSN?

Also does anyone know if he wore glasses? There is a reference in one of the Amelia biographies of him sitting on some eyeglasses. Is this the American word for spectacles or binoculars (ouch).??

Jackie

****************************************************************
From Ric

No one has ever been able to explain the tax system in the United States, so I won't try - but the closest thing we have (so far) to a national identity number is the Social Security number.  Recent forum discussions indicate that the system was so new in 1937 that it is not terribly likely that Fred yet had a number.  Fred almost certainly did pay tax but the federal government is not known for its eagerness to release personal tax information.

A reference to him sitting on "glasses" surely refers to what are called spectacles in the Mother Tongue.  I don't think I've never seen a photo of Fred wearing glasses but, at 46 (as we now think) it would not be at all surprising if he wore reading glasses.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:55:05 EDT
From:         Dick Strippel
Subject:      Manning's departure

>the human cargo for the next flight was pared down.  As Captain Manning had
>to return to his Atlantic command, his...

THIS IS A PRETTY DUMB WAY OF SAYING THAT HIS CORPORATE L.O.A. WAS OVER

***************************************************************
From Ric

I think you're quoting an old newspaper article there.  As I'm sure you know, there has also been a lot of speculation that Harry left the team because AE scared him witless with the groundloop in Hawaii.  Newsreel film of the trio (AE, Fred and Harry) on their way back to California by ship seems to support that explanation.  Earhart and Noonan are putting a good face on it but Harry is definitely not a happy camper.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:57:14 EDT
From:         Dick Strippel
Subject:      Cable ID: magneto wire

>I don't think that the Lockheed 10 used any RF coax for it's transmitting
>systems. Low loss coax...

agreed!!!!!!!!!! most contemp rf wire was bare copper, insulated with ceramic disks as necessary.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:34:19 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Bones: Speculation; eyepiece lens

>I dont suppose then that the inverting eyepiece had a lense they could have
>used for starting there fires.....
>
>David J Kelly
>
>***************************************************************
>
>From Ric
>
>Hmmmm.  Not a bad hypothesis.  That could explain why only that piece of the
>sexant was present at the Aukaraime camp site.

It's almost a sure thing that the eyepiece would have contained a lens that could be used for starting a fire.  Do you even need a lens on Niku? <grin> The Tarawa File, Document #16, makes reference to, "... probably part of an inverting eyepiece."  The eyepiece may have been disassembled to get one particular lens (a converging lens) that was convenient for fire starting.
****************************************************************

From Ric

Very good!  I missed that.  They only found "...part of an inverting eyepiece." I kind of like this hypothesis.  Has a real Robinson Crusoe flavor to it.  They've been on the island long enough to have run out of matches but have devised some systems for survival (but not so long that they don't still have a can with the label still on).  They've learned how to kill birds (no big deal; walk up to them and grab 'em by the neck) and turtles (much trickier).  I'd say we're looking at a matter of weeks, but not months.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:38:17 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Last flight notes & charts

Does anyone know where the reports of the last flight are kept? Is it the National Archives?. Also the flight charts?

J.F.

***************************************************************

From Ric

All that stuff is at Purdue University.  Contact:

Prof. Katherine (Katie) Markee
Purdue University Libraries
1530 Stewart Center
W. Lafayette,  IN  47907-1530
phone (765) 494-2904
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:41:07 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: specs

Thanks for info on Tax and specs. I agree he almost certainly would have had specs for reading . The Air Almanac and Sight Reduction Tables are difficult to read even for the perfect sighted and the constant strain of the eye having to adjust from light to dark when taking star fixes takes its toll so I am told.

Jackie
**************************************************************

From Ric

That's why they call them Sight Reduction Tables <g>.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:36:23 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Campfire sites

Pondering the imponderable...

I too have puzzled about things that were not found by TIGHAR ... And things that were not found by Gallagher in 1940.

Near a campfire site, TIGHAR found shoe parts seemingly from both a man's and a woman's shoes.  Why did Gallagher not find these along with the shoe part he did find at a campfire site?

Gallagher found something less than half of a human skeleton. There is evidence that bones endure rather well in the environment, but TIGHAR has found no part of the skeleton.  I would expect that some remnant of the skeleton could be found -- unless more of the bones were found in 1940/1941 and carried away.  There was an inclination to keep it quiet from the start.

Aside from the metal bottle cap, TIGHAR has found no metal objects at the campfire site.  I assume the area was searched with a metal locator.  Civilized people of the 20th century tend to leave metal debris where they have been. (Post-war people tend to leave lots of plastic as well!)

TIGHAR did find a fragment believed to be from the label of a can, perhaps of ripe banana.  But no can.  Would a tin-can last 60 years on Niku?  In any case, if the people moved on from that site, they would have taken the can with them.  In their situation, they would not discard a useful container/cooking utinsil.

Maybe this tells us that we are looking at two different campfire sites.  As has been stated earlier, there may well have been several camp sites.  Gallagher's site may have been the last, at least for one of them.  TIGHAR's may have been earlier.

The shoe parts seem not to fit well in this scenario.  But one could probably concoct some kind of theory by assuming that AE probably had more than one pair of shoes.  Fred may have also. Things may have become such that they had to decide what was worth the effort to carry, and what should be discarded.  I wish we knew whether the two women's shoe soles were mates.  The two heels, at least one a replacement type, could be from the same pair of shoes.

Other odds and ends not found... So far as we know.

Gallagher found no metal objects at his campfire site either, unless one counts the inverting eyepiece.  And that was "thrown away by finder."  Thrown away?  I do not believe that.

What became of the sextant?  Most of the stuff found by Gallagher's people appeared to be of little value.  But a sextant would have been a different matter

An imaginary conversation:

"Hay, man, that's a nice box.  What was in it?"
"Just an old inverting eyepiece.  I threw it away."

The sextant may reside in someone's collection of nautical or aeronautical memorabilia to this day.
**************************************************************

From Ric

Good thoughts.  I will, however, offer an opinion that the campfire found by TIGHAR is the same one found by Gallagher.  Here's why I say that.

Gallagher describes the site where the bones, artifacts, campfire, dead birds, etc. were found as being "on South East corner of island about 100 feet above ordinary high water springs" and in a part of the island that is "not yet cleared" but where work is obviously being done in 1940.  That's a rather good description of where we found the shoe parts and campfire.  It's hard to imagine that two camps would be necessary close enough together to fit that description.

One does, as you mention, wonder why Gallagher didn't find the shoe parts that we found.  Maybe a gang of obsessed Yanks were more thorough than Irish and his possibly somewhat nervous Gilbertese workers.

That much of the skeleton was missing doesn't seem to have suprised Gallagher, nor does it surprise us.  He says specifically, "All small bones have been removed by giant coconut crabs which have also damaged larger ones."  Last time out, in 1997 before we even knew about all this, we actually tried an experiment to see how quickly and widely coconut crabs would scatter bones. We set out some nice meaty sheep bones brought from Fiji just for that purpose.  Next day there was some disturbance and lots of crab activity.  Then the next day the storm tides came in and flooded out the entire area where we had set up the test.  Bummer.

We did find a couple of very small metal objects near the campfire site.  In 1991, when we first found the shoe parts, a metal detector sweep found a piece of a shoe nail and screening produced a brass shoelace eyelet.  In 1997, more metal detector work turned up a small washer-like ferrous ring of unknown origin.  As for the survivability of "tin" (actually steel) can - forget it. Large steel drums from the island's colonial period are now just piles of rusty flakes surrounded by a crumbling ring.
=======================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:43:16 EDT
From:         Wes Mahoney
Subject:      Footnote

Something of intrest, maybe?

In the Book _The Battle for Okinawa_ by Hiromichi Yahara, there is a footnote about AE:

"...Going through some forms filled out by POWs from the Marianas campaign, I found that one prisoner had scrawled the name "Amelia Earhart" in barely intelligible English script on the back of his registration.  Here was tantalizing evidence that the missing American aviatrix had gone down in the Japanese-held islands when she disappeared on her prewar flight over the Pacific.  We repeatedly called out the POW's name at roll call, but could not trace him."

Frank B. Gibney wrote the footnote.

Wes Mahoney
***************************************************************
From Ric

I take it that the POW was Japanese.  There have been several undocumented anecdotes about U.S. servicemen finding photos of AE (just regular old prewar publicity photos) in the possession of POWs or left behind in barracks or offices on Saipan.  It may be that she had her fans in Japan too.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 09:34:41 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Starting fires

I just tried starting a fire with the eyepiece of my sextant to no avail. Difficult to get a good focus and the sun is a bit weak in Scotland this time of year, I imagine it would be better with just one lens and not the whole eyepiece. Fred might have been better using his glasses.

**************************************************************

From Ric

As you say, maybe one lens would work better, and I wonder what sort of lenses are in an inverting eyepiece?

I've been to Scotland and I've been to Niku.   My heart's in the Highlands, but the sun is a wee bit more intense on Niku.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:00:31 EDT
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Wreck photo

Just another comment about the wreck photo (too late to catch the TRACKS issue, I guess) :-

The visible engine in the wreck obviously has a "ring cowl" on the front, with presumably 2 or more side pieces (now missing) covering the engine sdies. I just generally assumed that the L10 was configured like this (TIGHAR's Web page photo seems to show such a ring cowl).

However I've just received a bunch of older TRACKS from Pat (thanks Pat) and in Vol.11,No.3,P.15 is a photo of AE's L10 lying forlorn after it's Hawaii accident. In the foreground are three "thirds" of engine cowlings which seem to show that this aircraft didn't have a seperate ring cowl, just three "side" pieces that surround the engine. I can't see how corrosion and mulilation of these cowls my natual forces (wave action etc.) could leave just the forward ring part of the three side pieces.

"Don't send that Ellwood over the Atlantic any more TRACKs...."  :-) 

I'm enjoying immensely reading about "L'Oiseau Blanc" currently. Are any more trips to Maine/Avalon planned ?

Simon Ellwood.

*************************************************************

From Ric

You're absolutely right about the way the Lockheed 10 cowlings came apart. I'll be dealing with the ring cowl matter in the new TIGHAR Tracks.  I think there is a logical way the cowling could end up looking like the one in the photo.  I'll be interested in your thoughts.

As for L'Oiseau Blanc (Lucy Blank, as one TV crew called it), we're pretty much stuck until we get some sort of break in the evidence.  In our opinion, Maine is a bust.  Lots of great stories but no real evidence.  Newfoundland looks very promising - specifically a few square miles surrounding the Gull Pond on the Cape Shore peninsula.  It seems quite certain that an aircraft came down in that country in the late '20s or very early '30s.  The White Bird is one, and I think the best, candidate.  Considerable salvage seems to have been done by one, and maybe more, locals.  (The perpetrators are long dead.) The engine and possibly a few other components are out there somewhere, either on the bottom of one of the innumerable "ponds" (read lakes), or buried deep in the "tuck" (thick, gnarly undergrowth) on the muskeg.  Searching in that region is bureaucratically complicated, hideously expensive, and physically dangerous.  I've never seen a place (Niku included) try so hard to kill you. We either need some cheap new technology that will enable us to identify small masses of highly oxidized metal from the air, or we need for some local person to come forward with new information.  Until then, we'll focus on Amelia and Fred and let Chuck and Frank rest in peace.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:25:28 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      fire-damaged leather

Ric wrote:

> and the fact that the shoe remains included some
> scraps of what appears to be fire-damaged leather, leads
>us to suspect that the shoe had lain undisturbed very near where we found it
>since the time of the fire.

I had assumed that the leather parts of the shoes were gone due to bacterial action leaving only rubber parts -- like what happened to the gloves in a relatively short time.  It would appear that the man's shoes had leather soles so those were gone leaving only rubber heels.  The woman's shoe(s) had rubber soles and heel(s) and those remain.

But the "fire-damaged leather" is puzzling.  Rubber burns pretty well, especially natural rubber.  Why did the rubber parts not burn up?  And why would the shoes have been in the fire?
****************************************************************
From Ric

Bear in mind that what I describe as "fire-damaged leather" is only supposition.  It has never been tested to confirm that that's what it is.  But that's what it looks like.  There are only a few little scraps and they look as if they were close enough to a fire to be shrunken and somehat shriveled from the heat, but no actually burned.  If a shoe were left beside a fire, perhaps to dry, and was little bit too close or was left unattended, it might cause the effect observed.  If the undamaged leather portions of the shoe rotted away, it might well leave just the heel, fragments of rubber sole, brass eyelet (should be more someplace), and bits of heat-toughened leather that we found.
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:34:54 EDT
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Campfire site

Vern's latest entry has set me to thinking about the campfire site artifacts as well. Certainly, the banana can, even if not taken along with AE & FN as a drinking vessel as they searched the island for food, would certainly have mouldered away to dust simply by virtue of exposure to sea tide water salt, and catalyzed by the tropical temperatures. The label, which was spared such a fate, could have been used by the eyepiece-brandishing Fred to actually start the campfire where it was found. The shoes, of course, could have been unearthed by tides, crabs, or whatever. It is important to note, however, that tanned leather seems to have a significantly better survival rate than do the bodies of those who died while wearing them. A good case in point refers to the dozens of PAIRS of shoes found on the sea floor in the debris field of the TITANIC. These shoes were, as evidenced by their matching and layout, formerly occupied by the bodies of their late owners, lying about the wreck. While the great depth and low temperature did account for some of the preservation (lower oxidation rate), it was still salt water, and 86 years of immersion in it. The flesh, bone, and clothing fabric all disintergrated, yet the shoe leather survived. Paper survived too, as many retrieved artifacts attest. Steel didn't fare quite as well. Food for comparative thought!--Best Wishes to all!--Gene Dangelo :D
***************************************************************

From Ric

In many respects, the environment on the floor of the Atlantic is far less reductive than that of the tropical forest on Niku.  We have ample evidence that even tanned leather goes away quite quickly.

Might the can have not been there at all, but only the paper label as an aid in fire starting?  Interesting possibility.

=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:16:10 EDT
From:         Tom King (our Project Archaeologist for Chris'sake)
Subject:      Kung Butaei

I think the synchronicity of Noonan and Norwich is clear proof that Ric dreamed this whole business up as an elaborate joke.

Kung Butaei
TK

****************************************************************
From Ric

If it's a joke, I'm the brunt of it.  Incidentally, Tom's use of the Gilbertese expression Kung Butaei warrants an explanation.  Like to "Love to mother" it has become a favorite among Earhart Project team members and researchers.

Kung Butaei is a friendly greeting used primarily among young men of the Southern Gilberts (now part of the Republic of Kiribati). It was just such islanders who were the first colonists on Nikumaroro in 1938.  The expression's literal meaning can be discerned from the following brief glossary of Gilbertese (Tungaru) terms.

aba - land, piece of land
abamakoro - island, atoll
ai - coconut crab
aine - woman
akea - none
akea ngaira - expression of surprise (female usage). Note: It's probably just as well that ngaira is not translated.
anti - ghost (pronounced "Ahns."  In Tungaru "ti" is pronounced as "s" or "sh" so Kiribati is Kiribas and is, in fact, the local pronunciation of "Gilberts." Similarly, the current name for Christmas Island is Kiritimati.  Try it. It works.)
aomata - people (Gilbertese or I-Kiribati people, that is.)
aubunga - mature giant clam
babarantiko - to prattle or gossip harmlessly (common forum phenomenon)
bakoa - shark
bonata - protective magic
buka - large softwood tree (Pisonia grandis)
bungabunga - to be full of holes
butaei - feces
I-Matang - people other than I-Kiribati.  (slightly pejorative)
ibonga - magician
ika - fish
kamea - dog (from English "come here")
kawa - village 
kawabunga - not a Tungaru word.  Gotcha.
kika - octopus
kikao - serious octopus
kung - to eat with enjoyment
kuranki - a bit crazy
makauro - hermit crab
mane - man
maneaba - village/island meeting house
manging - state of drunkeness
matanwi - chief of a group
nei - form of female address similar to Ms.  Nikumaroro's protective goddess is always addressed as Nei Manganibuka. Offend her at your peril. (voice of experience)
Nimanoa - a goddess.  In the 1930s, the British royal colony ship that serviced the Phoenix Islands settlements was RCS Nimanoa.
ni - coconut tree
on - turtle
ora - reef
rawa - shallow passage separating islets.  Tatiman and Bauareke Passages on Nikumaroro are classic examples.
rebwerebwe - motorbike (from the sound they make)
ren - smallish hardwood tree (Tournefortia)
ri - bone
tangitang - to cry or complain
te - the definite article, always used for single nouns or persons.  Omission implies plural.  When referring to a person, god, ghost or totem animal whose name begins with a vowel use "ten" instead.
wa-ni-ki-ba - airplane (literally, canoe that flies)
wi - tooth
wi-n-anti - malicious gossip (literally, ghost's tooth)

Are these cool people or what?

Kung Butaei,
Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:31:23 EDT
From:         Ric Gillespie
Subject:      Campsite

Been thinking about our speculation that the castaways' campsite found by Gallagher, and rediscovered by TIGHAR, is not a base camp but perhaps one (obviously the last) in a series of temporary camps in an exploratory trip around the island.  That hypothesis seems to fit quite nicely with what was, and was not, found at the site.  And it also raises some interesting new questions.

If the former-residents' information is correct (and we suspect it is), the airplane came to grief just off the shore of Nutiran at the west end of the island.  We've speculated that AE and FN might logically have first set up their camp near the site of the wreck and then, when prompt rescue started to look unlikely, set out to explore the island to see what assets might be available to aid in their survival until help arrived.

The question that occurred to me was, if you begin a circumnavigation of the island on the shore of Nutiran near where the airplane wreck is reputed to be (sort of at the entrance to Tatiman Passage), which way do you go?  Do you go north, toward the wreck of the Norwich City?  Or do go south and immediately ford the waist-deep (at best), shark infested (been there, done that) passage? I think a good a argument could be made for heading north.

If that's what happened, then they approached the Aukaraime site from the east, not the west, and had made it roughly two-thirds of the way around the island.  They're traveling light - a bottle of water and a box in which to carry a few essentials like their fire-starting lens and the emergency rations from the plane. By the time they reach the Aukaraime site they may be down to the last can of banana put they're able to build a fire and kill birds and a turtle to supplement their diet.  They're not doing too badly.  So why do they not get any further?

Looks to me like something happened quite abruptly that killed first one of them (apparently Amelia) and left the other able to bury her (in some fashion) but unable to continue on.  He laid down under the ren tree and never got up. What could have happened?

My guess is that they ate a poisonous fish -  a well known problem in the Phoenix Islands (well known to local peoples and ichthyologists, that is). It's the only thing I can think of that fits the implied scenario.  Either of them could suffer an accident or have a run in with a stone fish or shark while trying to catch fish out on the reef flat, but whatever happened got both of them, and in a relatively short time, but not simultaneously.

In thinking about this I remembered that back in 1991, as we were excavating the grave near where the shoe parts were found, Dr. Tommy Love came across what appears to be a single fish vertebra (cataloged as 2-2-G-1).  It was in the first centimeter of soil removed from the area.  Nearby was another small fragment of what appears to be bone (2-2-G-2).  The vertebra is small - about 5mm in diameter.  How does a fish end up about 60 meters inland, well beyond the high water line for periods of flooding?  The grave was outlined in coral slabs, in the traditional Gilbertese fashion, and the top of the grave featured a thin layer of small white sea shells gathered from the lagoon shore.  Maybe the fish bone came with the shells, but it wasn't found with the shells.  It was found well outside the boundary of the grave.

It would be interesting to have an ichthyologist look at our little bones.  I'm not sure how much of an identification might be possible , but if by any chance they come from a species that is found only on the reef flat, not in the lagoon, and is also toxic, that would pretty interesting.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:38:11 EDT
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Kung Butaei: elaboration

MMMmmmmmm....

Ref: the Gilbertese translations...

How do you tell the difference between a kika and a Kikao ?? Tell it a joke and if it doesn't laugh it's a kikao ?? <g>

D'ya mean "big" here, or is there some subtlety in the translation of "serious" that needs explaining.... ?

Give us a clue with "ngaira", - I'm trying to guess the context <g>

Simon Ellwood

***************************************************************

From Ric

I'd elaborate if I could but the I-Kiribati dictionary I was working from offered no explanation for what kind of octopus qualifies as "serious." Likewise, it contained no translation of ngaira.  Like everything else - more research is needed.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:49:12 EDT
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Campsite: comments

Good thinking about the campsite scenario.

I was gonna suggest fish poisoning myself as a possible answer to why both appear to have been incapacitated at the same time.

You mentioned in an earlier posting that these poisonous fish are only toxic at certain times of the year..... how about early/mid July ?? Anyone know ?

One other point about the site of the aircraft - surely if the former- residents comments such as:-

 "When our people first arrived a few years ago (presumably 1937-38ish) there was an airplane here"

are correct then this aircraft cannot have been placed at such an obvious position as in the mouth of the Tatiman Passage - right next to where the village was to be established, or it would surely have been commented/reported on by the English and New Zealand officials who visited around that time.

Perhaps if it did land there, it may have been swept inwards towards the lagoon to a position less "obvious", to be discovered perhaps by leisurely exploration by the villagers a little later when no English were around.

Very intriguing

Simon Ellwood
***************************************************************

From Ric

The dense bush along the shore of Nutiran where it starts to curve lagoon-ward to form the mouth of Tatiman Passage is deceptively remote from the village proper.  The lagoon passage, at most tidal states, requires a canoe to get across and for the first years of the colony there seems to have been little or no activity on Nutiran.

That the English and New Zealand visitors spent time there is the principle reason that we have not.  But unless you have a very good reason to go into the dense bush, you don't.  It is not at all inconceivable to me that wreckage could be back in there.

Apparently some wreckage did float through the passage and fetch up on the lagoon shore, as recounted by Pulekai last year on Funafuti.  I'm hoping that a concerted search of those areas will bear fruit, or rather, aluminum.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:22:16 EDT
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Campsite: forget the fish

I don't like to rain on your parade, Ric, but I think the idea of the '91 fishbone being from the critter that poisoned Amelia and Fred is about in the same league as the Saipan blindfold.  Niku is a raised coral island; the coral that makes up the ground used to be underwater.  Plenty of opportunities for bones to collect as it grew.  Niku is inhabited by fish-eating birds, who doubtless drop fish parts all over the place and pass them through their gullets.  Niku is inhabited by crabs and rats that can drag dead fish up from the shoreline.  Niku has been inhabited by Gilbertese, who probably have been known to lunch on fish while tending their plantations.  Even if the bone IS from a poisonous pisces, I don't think it would really indicate anything.

They certainly may HAVE eaten a poisonous fish, but I don't think we need to puzzle too much about what killed them at this point.  There are plenty of reasons to die on Niku.

On the other hand, I like your notion of their walking northwest and thence around the island.  We always think of going the other way because that's what we did, what Maude did, what the Kiwis did, but none of us were there for the reasons AE and FN were, nor did we arrive there the same way, and we all had attractions (the channel and monument for us, a potential campsite for Maude et al, etc. etc.) that aren't relevant to AE and FN.  It's a good example of how we can blind ourselves; it had never occurred to me to think that they'd go anyplace but SE if they landed up on southwestern Nutiran.

If they DID go the way you think they did, then presumably they camped a few times along the way.  I wonder what they would have left.....

A nice thing about this speculation is that nobody's done much along the shore beyond the Norwich City since '37 (or '29, for that matter), so there shouldn't be the kinds of noise we experience with the data from the village. Of course, this kind of smacks of looking on D Street for the dollar you lost on C Street because the light's better.

LTM and KB
TK
*************************************************************

From Ric

Yeah, you're right.  Forget the fish bone.  I was hoping we could fund the next trip to Niku by selling it to somebody as The Fish That Killed Amelia.

Back to approximations of reality.  If AE and FN are setting out to explore their new home, what sorts of things are they looking for?  Sources of water, food and shelter - in that order - would be my guess.  How thoroughly are they going to explore (meaning how many transient camps are there likley to be)? They're certainly in no hurry.  They have, quite literally, all the time in the world, unless they have a water or food shortage, which does not seem to be the case (from the bottle that Kilts said had water in it, and the birds and turtle remains).  Seems like they'd also want to take it real easy, recognizing that their health is their most important assett.  They might well go a ways and establish a temporary camp and spend a couple of days checking out the area.  If we take the Aukaraime camp as a model, they'll kill a few birds and whatever else looks appetizing, and build a small fire.  When they move on they'll probably leave nothing behind but charcoal and bones and/or shell.  That's going to be pretty tough to find now.

Working their way along the northern (windward) shore has two advantages I can think of:

1.  They can keep an eye on the northern horizon from whence help is most likely to come.
2.  Beachcombing is likely to be most productive along that coastline.

Allegations of Fred's drinking problem notwithstanding, the Benedictine bottle may well have been a trophy of that walk (or of an exploration of the Norwich City).

At any rate, I'd have to put a search for more campsites pretty low on our To Do List when we return to the island.  Let's find the plane and the rest of the bones and then maybe try to piece together the rest of the story.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:00:33 EDT
From:         John Coombs
Subject:      Earhart's Tabiteuea Flyover

The TIGHAR website is very interesting and informative, well done.  The TIGHAR group appears to be taking a conscientious and thorough approach to investigating the Earhart mystery.  I understand there has been much study done in the areas of Earhart/Noonan navigation and aircraft endurance, some of which may contradict TIGHAR's work.  On the "Log Jam" page I saw something interesting in the paragraph about Itasca's primary radio log entry for 02 July, 0345-04??.  There is a statement:

". . . recently passed over the island of Tabiteuea in the Gilberts. (Islanders later reported that an aircraft was heard to pass high overhead that night.)..."

My question is, what is the basis for the statement about the islanders' report?  Who made that statement, when was it made, what did the islanders actually say, who did the interview, etc.?  Was there a possibility of another aircraft in the area of the island which sound was mistaken for Earhart?  This could be a good navigation "data point" if the islander's report can be used with a high degree of confidence, or if more details are known.  I would be interested if anyone has any ideas.

John Coombs

****************************************************************

From Ric

The Tabiteuea Flyover has to be categorized as a "maybe."  Today it is largely forgotten that, following Earhart's disappearance and the Navy's failed search, a group of concerned friends led by parachute manufacturer Elmer Dimity formed the Amelia Earhart Foundation.  Author Mary Lovell (The Sound of Wings) describes it as "..a well-intentioned, though hopelessly inefficient organization whose mission was to raise money to send a search/rescue expedition to the Pacific to discover whether amelia was still alive or, if she was not, 'an explanation of the mystery.'"

The best they were able to manage was to commission four weeks of searching in the Gilbert and Ellice Islands in 1940 by the private yacht Yankee of Gloucester which was making a cruise around the world. In a letter to Dimity dated June 4, 1940, Captain Irving Johnson stated that the only possibly useful information his inquiries turned up was that a plane had been heard to pass over the island of Tabiteuea during the night of July 2, 1937.  Certainly no other airplanes were in that part of the world at that time, but the story has to be seen as an unattributed anecdotal account gathered three years after the alleged event.  Still, it is interesting that the only reported hearing of an airplane in the Gilberts is correct in location (Tabiteuea) and general time of day (night time) if Amelia was on schedule and on course for Howland.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:17:45 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Campsite: ren tree

Is it known whether that "...certain amount of digging in the vicinity." took place or not?  It seems coconut trees did get planted -- somewhere.  I wonder if "in the vicinity" actually included the campfire site and the area where the bones were found?  Did they dig up the "ren" tree?

If they didn't destroy the "ren" tree... A hardwood tree.  Long lived?  More than 60 years?  I don't suppose there is a good candidate for that ren tree still there.  Or are they all over the place and any one, or none of them, might be "the" ren tree.

*************************************************************

From Ric

From what we can see, not a lot of clearing was necessary for the planting of cocos in the specific area where the shoes, etc. were found.  The old rotted stumps of the 1940/41 planting can still be seen in a line about 15 meters from the site.

The answer to your question about the ren tree is a bit embarrassing. Videotape taken at the time of the discovery of the heel and sole fragments in 1991 shows that they were found in the shade of a small, low tree which may very well have been a "ren" tree.  We have no idea how old it may have been, and in a tropical climate like Niku's you can't just count the rings to determine age.  In order to clear the area for meticulous searching we removed the little tree.  Of course, at that time all we knew was that we had found some pieces of an old shoe.  Our priority was to see if we could find more stuff.  It was six years later that we learned that Gallagher had found the bones in the shade of a ren tree.

This points up one of the most difficult lessons we have to keep in mind when we're out there searching.  Never assume that what you're looking at is unimportant.  Dare to believe that the answers are right there in front of you, even if you don't yet know enough to recognize them.
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:24:06 EDT
From:         Mike Scott-Williams
Subject:      Map of Niku

Have been quietly following the Forum, with great interest, from a back seat.

Would it be possible to produce a map of Gardner Island, so those of us who "came in late" could orientate ourselves ?

Thanks,

Mike Scott-Williams
South Africa
**************************************************************

From Ric

Unfortunately, the forum software won't support attached files, but your point is well-taken.

Very soon we'll be doing some major up-dating of the TIGHAR website (www.tighar.org) and we'll include a detailed map of Niku.  As soon as it's up I'll put out the word on the forum.

***************************************************************
=======================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:32:57 EDT
From:         David Kelly
Subject:      Survival time

 >I'd say we're looking at a matter of weeks, but not months.

Then why only a couple of weeks.....did they suffer from dehydration or something?  Was there a water supply?  If my boy scout training is correct....they should have been able to get fresh water by digging just behind the beach....or was there some other source of water? (i suspect i may be asking questions that have already been answered...my appologies if that is the case).

Regards 
David J Kelly

****************************************************************

From Ric

Water would certainly be a major concern.  To get down to where there is even brackish water on Niku requires digging capabilites well beynod those of a couple of castaways.  Rainfall is the only real source of potable water, but if we can believe one report that says a bottle containing "fresh water for drinking" was found at the site, then lack of water was not the cause of death.

My estimate of weeks rather than months is based entirely upon the presence of the can label fragment.  Seems to me that what few emergency rations were aboard the airplane would be used sparingly and might last a matter of weeks, but not months.  Just a guess.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:30:31 EDT
From:         Andrew McKenna
Subject:      Fish bone

Re the fish bones.

I can arrange to have them examined at the American Musuem of Natural History in NYC by the appropriate specialist if you want.  Let me know.

A McKenna
TIGHAR 1045

***************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks Andrew but, as Tom KIng has pointed out, there's really no meaningful conclusion we could draw even if we knew what kind of fish it came from.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:55:46 EDT
From:         Dick Strippel
Subject:      Re: Air Comics

DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY "AIR COMICS" AS SUBJECT. YoU CAN GET COPIES OF LETTERS FROM FDR LIBRARY ONLINE. IR'S ALL TRUTH BUT WHY NOT TAKE IT AT FACE VALUE? HER REP WOULD HAVE BEEN ZERO IF IT WERE DISCOVERED SHE WAS SUCH A ROTTEN PILOT.

PLEASE FOLKS-DO A LITTLE RESEARCH BEFORE YOU JUMP TO BAD CONCLUSIONS

==DICK
***************************************************************
From Ric

The old forum posting you're referring to had the subject line "Air Comics" because it referred to an article about an alleged Earhart/U.S. Government conspiracy which appeared in the April 1998 issue of Air Classics magazine. We have long referred to that publication as Air Comics because of its low standards of historical accuracy and neolithic editorial policy.

I do not agree with your opinion that Earhart was a "rotten pilot" and I think that even you, Mr. Strippel, will agree that I have done "a little research" before jumping to this conclusion.  It is true that the Commander Thompson's report painted Earhart in a very bad light and it is hardly surprising that Thompson's boss, Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, believed him.  It is also true that the report contains several inaccuracies and some outright fabrications (of which Morgenthau was, no doubt, unaware) designed to absolve the Coast Guard (and Thompson) from any responsibility for Earhart's loss.

My suggestion Dick, is that you follow your own advice.
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:58:57 EDT
From:         Mike Ruiz
Subject:      No Land Club Offensive

Tom King writes:

>Boy, I'm getting tired of being told all about Niku by people who've never
>been there.... Whatever else it may be, it ain't good science.

Well, Tom, we got tired just watching  you guys get tired on the various TV documentaries we watched.

Also reference John Clauss:

"I have seen team members, exhausted and drenched in sweat laying  on coral rubble after having cut through a hundred feet of Scavola. "

Tom, the point we are trying to make relates to economics.  How much time was spent cutting through 100 feet of scavola?

How much labor?  And how much of the lagoon could you have covered and why didn't you?  In 1989 TIGHAR declared the plane wasn't on land, yet less than 5% of the lagoon is searched???

Help us understand.

Lets say TIGHAR goes back to Niku for 20 days with 20 folks in 1999. (Is that an average trip?)

Can you search the western part of the lagoon, reef flat, and dig the anecdotal sites in that time frame?

We noted on your TV program that the scholarly pace of archaeology is abandoned when the team runs out of time and you did not get as much done as you planned.

Unfortunately, "lousy economics"  overrules "good science" most of the time.

LTM,

Mike Ruiz
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:47:06 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: booze

I'm trying to get to the bottom of Fred's alleged problem. It seems to be no big deal in the earlier Amelia biographies but is pretty damning in the later ones.

Does anyone know the reason for this?  I have it in my mind that it has arisen from the Chater letter ( the document which was misfiled?)  Does anyone know where this letter is? Is it with the Navy.

Other particularly graphic accounts emerge from Loomis' book suggesting a Paul Rafford ( an ex employee of Pan - Am) as the source.

I'm not one to give a dog a bad name and I take the point that there is no documentary evidence of Fred being an alcoholic but would there be?  AA certainly dont keep records. ( I couldnt see him going there anyway ).  Most workplaces even now are very discreet about citing the reasons for dismissal due to alcohol.  Medical records at least over here are destroyed after four years.

Thanks

Regards

Jackie.
****************************************************************

From Ric

I agree.  We really need to see if we can get to the bottom of this.  I have an original "flimsy" (carbon copy) of the Chater letter right here.  It contains no reference to any physical problem with Earhart or Noonan, much less any reference to Fred being a drunk.

Let's ask ourselves what kind of contemporaneous sources might qualify as evidence that someone had a drinking problem?  A couple of possibilites come to mind: Letters, perhaps not to or from the individual in question, but more likely among close friends, co-workers or relatives. Police reports of public drunkenness or traffic accidents involving alcohol.

So far, nothing like this has turned up.  Amelia sent one telegram from New Guinea attributing the delay in departure, in part, to "personnel unfitness" but provided no further explanation.  (I've been in New Guinea and have experienced "unfitness" without being drunk.)

If we can get our hands on the papers Mary Bea (Fred's second wife) left to her family, they may shed some light on this subject.  We're working on that. Meanwhile, if all we have to go on are anecdotal allegations, let's see if we can identify the earliest published reference to Fred having a drinking problem.

Loomis' book was published in 1985.  Fred Goerner (The Search for Amelia Earhart) in 1966 says:

"Fred Noonan was a talented and handsome man.  Only one major flaw disturbed the image.  He could drink a bottle of whiskey in the afternoon and get through the better part of another in the evening.  'Boozer,' 'drunk,' 'lush,' - are hard words, and none of them fit Fred. He was hooked on liquor but somehow continued to function.  He fought his adversary with courage and conviction, but sometimes he lost, and those defeats were costly.  One of them caused Pan American to let him go."

Goerner, of course, cites no source for this information.  Is this the earliest published allegation that Fred had a problem?
=======================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:50:07 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Starting fires

>I just tried starting a fire with the eyepiece of my sextant to no avail.

Ah, ha!  An Experimentalist!  Experiment: That which gives substance to theory.

I have a couple of generic eyepieces I can take apart.  I'll try my luck at it with a single lens.  But that will have to wait a couple of days.  It's cloudy here in the middle of the U.S. and predicted to continue a while. I'm about 15 degrees closer to the equator than you are.  Niku is 35 degrees closer still!

The small diameter of eyepiece lenses worries me a bit.  One would like a large diamater to capture more light and a short focal length (lots of curvature) to concentrate light in a tiny spot.  The Sherlock Holmes type magnifying glass is pretty ideal for fire starting.

I would venture that the larger objective lens of the sextant might be a better bet.  But that's a longer focal length.  And it's not that much larger than the eyepiece lenses, is it?  Judging by the pictures I find, it a pretty small telescope that's used on a sextant.  It doesn't need to be much.

We'll see what happens when the sun comes out!

Inverting eyepiece... I presume your sextant is of the nautical kind.  Does it give you a right-side-up view of the world?  I'm trying to be sure what is "normal" and what is "inverted" relative to sextants.

Can someone tell me why an inverting eyepiece would be favored for aeronautical use?  I presume we're talking about a conventional nautical type sextant and not a bubble-sextant or anything of that sort.

************************************************************

From Ric

Now we have people in Missouri and Fife trying to start fires using nautical sextants.  The really bizarre thing is that it is perfectly legitimate experimental research.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:50:58 EDT
From:         Skeet Gifford
Subject:      Mechanic dies

From the Obituary section, The Denver Post, April 27, 1998:

Mechanic Ruckins McKneely, Jr., who tended Amelia Earhart's plane just before she took off from Miami in 1937 for the round-the-world trip on which she vanished, died April 16 at a nursing home in Murfreesboro, Tenn. He was 89.

In 1936, McKneely went to California and was hired by Earhart who was already a famous aviator, although he had not heard of her. (! Skeet)

McKneely took such good care of Earhart's plane, a two-engine Lockheed Electra 10-E, that Earhart said, "The good-luck charm which seems to me most important is a good mechanic--that and a good engine. I'm fortunate in having both."

After Earhart disappeared, McKneely worked for an oil company, looking after its Lockheed aircraft. Then he worked for Lockheed Aircraft Corp. and its successors for three decades, retiring in 1971.

Skeet Gifford, 1371C
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:20:56 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: booze

This is a very sticky one. For one thing even AA's argue as to what constitutes an alcoholic. They have a list of 20 questions where if you answer just 4 your are one. On that count probably the whole population of Scotland would qualify.

But there again I know someone personally who ticked off 19 ended up in detox and even their family did not know of the problem.THIS WAS AS SERIOUS AS YOU CAN GET AND THE PERSON NEVER MISSED A DAYS WORK DUE TO DRINK.  The same person came third in the Dunfermline Half Marathon three months earlier. The only documentation relating to this person re alcoholism is medical records. None of the classic traffic offences, broken marriages, job dismissals.  Although hearsay these could apply to Fred. The accident in Fresno where the officer noted "had been drinking" The allegations about Pan Am and something went wrong in his marriage. Perhaps all innocent explanations but when taken together with the rest of the anecdotal evidence it is a question which must be given very serious consideration.

Goerner's account is the earliest I have come across. As much as I can see his reasons for wanting Fred to have a problem (empty wallet,open to exploitation as well as it making a good story)  it for me anyway seems to have a ring of truth about it. ( Some years ago I researched another notorious alleged 'drunk' Kim Philby and the similarities are striking.)

So yes I think the best bet for documentary evidence would be his papers but even then I think its unlikely unless it is as you say from one correspondent to another but not from Fred. He doesnt strike me as the sort of guy who would get into talking about his problems (unless he had a drink that is.......)

Slainte

Jackie F.
***************************************************************

From Ric

Scots don't have a drinking problem. We drink. We get drunk. We fall down. No problem.

Unless we get lucky and find a reference in a letter or memo this aspect of Fred's life may always a matter of speculation and innuendo.  Last year Randy Jacobson and I were the guests on a live National Public Radio call-in show about the Earhart mystery.  One caller asked me how seriously I take the allegations that Noonan had a drinking problem.  I replied, "Just as seriously as I take the stories about your drinking problem."

Not that it would prove anything one way or the other, but it would be interesting to know if there is any history of alcoholism in the Noonan/Greenfield family (if, indeed, we can establish for sure that these are Fred's people).  And what, I wonder, prompted a County Roscommon man to emigrate to East Anglia?  Guess I'm just nosy.

Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:23:54 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Sextants

From what I can gather aeronautical sextants can be of the nautical kind as in a flying boat sextant or more usually of the bubble type. Mine is nautical and looks very similar to the type of sextant used on flying boats. It gives a right way up image. Ive never used a bubble sextant but I would imagine it wouldnt matter too much if the image was inverted or not because a celestial body will look fine either way and the horizon is the bubble. Having said that though I believe they can also be used as a conventional sextant so maybe they do give a right way up image.

Mine is a Zeiss and the objective lens is about 1.5". From what Ive seen of bubble sextants the lenses are not nearly as big. The 'collecting' lens seems to be the biggest rather than any lens in the eyepiece or the collimator.  I've never seen the picture of the inverting eyepiece which was found. Is it from a bubble sextant or a nautical? I'm sure Fred would have had both types of sextant.

Personally for starting fires I would use my glasses or that Benedictine bottle - NOTHING would induce me to wreck my sextant!

Jackie
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:40:12 EDT
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Niku tides

1) When the tide is all the way in, does the sea come virtually all the way up to the vegetation line, or is there still some beach/coral above high water ?

Ric:  No.  Even at the highest of high tides, the water does not come anywhere near the vegetation line.  There are at least 150 feet of beach or coral before the bushes and trees start.  The only time that water comes up into the treeline is during storm events.

2) Does the Lagoon level rise and fall in phase with the tides outside ? Thus, are there currents in both (in and out) directions of the two lagoon passages - depending on the time of day ?

Ric: Normally, there is a very slight rise and fall of the lagoon (maybe a foot or so) which lags behind the ocean's tidal phases.  At times, the main lagoon passage (Tatiman Passage) experiences a significant current into, but not out of, the lagoon.  The southern lagoon passage  (Bauareke Passage) is very shallow and relatively inactive.

3)The 1935 survey map of Niku comments that the south east corner of the lagoon is "very shallow". Does this go dry at low tide ? From the air, is the color of the shallow lagoon water different (i.e. perhaps a much lighter blue), and visible as such ?

Ric:  No portion of the lagoon goes dry at low tide or even looks much different from any other part of the lagoon.  Depths at the southeast end run around 6 to 10 feet.  Depths out in the middle and up at the west end are more like 15 to 20 feet.

I'm trying to get a picture of Niku from the air at various tide states. Did you get the ultra-light flying on Niku-III ?? (I'm interested as I fly ultra's over here)

Ric:  Unfortunately, no.  The weather was too rough.  Next time - for sure - dammit.

Thanks
Simon Ellwood
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:44:30 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Fish bone

I think it would still be relevant, or at the very least interesting, to know whether July is a month during which some edible local fishes are poisonous.

Blue skies, -jham
**************************************************************
From Ric

Agreed.  I know I've seen literature on this.  There was a paper by a Smithsonian icthyologist named Schultz who was on the 1939 Bushnell survey of the Phoenix Group.  I think it was called Poisonous Fishes of the Phoenix Islands or somehting very close to that.

Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:48:57 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Starting fires

What sort of lenses are in an inverting eyepiece?  Good question.  There are a lot of possibilities.

With no first-hand knowledge of sextants, I boldly blunder on... The part of the sextant we are concerned with is a telescope.  It is designed to produce an image of the horizon and of a celestial object, both being objects at a distance.  Both will be essentially "in focus" for the same adjustment of the telescope.  The movable mirror and the fixed half-silvered mirror make it possible for both objects to be in the field of view at the same time.  The movable mirror allows the two images to be brought together in the field of view.  The angle of the movable mirror when this is accomplished is a measure of the angular position of the star (or other object) above the horizon.

In its most simple form, the telescope contains two lenses.  An objective lens and an eyepiece lens.  Both are converging lenses i.e. Convex lenses, thick at the center and thin at the edge.  The objective lense is typically larger diameter and of longer focal length.  The eyepiece lense is of lesser diameter and of relatively short focal length.  The one lens is movable to allow adjustment for a sharp image -- "focusing."  The magnification of the telescope is equal to the ratio of the two focal lengths.

Either of these lenses is appropriate for fire-starting.  The best choice involves a trade-off of light-capturing diameter and concentration of light due to short focal length.

However; this kind of telescope produces an inverted image.  This is probably not what is normally desired in a sextant.  It will work but the world will appear up-side-down when viewed through the telescope.  This might be what is involved with an "inverting eyepiece."  Actually a case of going to a more simple arrangement not involving measures to produce a right-side-up image.

The most simple way to produce a right-side-up image is the "opera glass" arrangement.  This involves a diverging eyepiece lense -- a concave lens thin in the center and thick at the edge.  This lens is NOT suitable for fire-starting. It will not image the sun in a tiny, concentrated spot as will a converging lens.

Another way to get right-side-up is to use a third lens to invert the inverted image.  This involves three lensas in the telescope and each of them is a converging lens suitable for fire-starting.

A third way to get a non-inverted image does not apply to a sextant telescope.  Prism Binoculars accomplish the right-side-up view by virtue of the two prisms. The twice-folded light path also allows a long focus objective lens for high magnification in a physical length only about 1/3 as lomg as the combined focal lengths of the lenses.

It is likely that any, or all, of the lenses in an actual instrument will be compound lenses involving two different kinds of glass cemented together. This is necessary to correct for a number of aberrations that occur with simple lenses.  Things get complicated when you bend light paths around with funny shaped pieces of glass.

After all this, about all I can conclude is that there is a high probability that one or more lenses suitable for fire-starting would be found in an eyepiece lens -- inverting or non-inverting.  The other lens, or lenses, in the sextant telescope would probably also be suitable.  On Niku, it wouldn't take much, if it was not cloudy.  That's a problem inherent in solar fire-starting.

I wonder what caused Gallagher to say it was probably an inverting eyepiece? He must have had discription that is not evident in his messages.  I suppose a lot of those people who traveled among the islands had intimate knowledge of sextants and just what an inverting eyepiece looked like.  Was it somehow distinctly different looking from a normal eyepiece?

I'm concerned that I may be completely mistaken about what an inverting eyepiece would be.  Inverting in what sense?  Maybe it's something that lets you hold the sextant in a different position.

Thinking back to fire-starting...  I can believe that the label from the can may have been used to get a fire started.  Civilized "Europeans" would think of using paper to start a fire!  The natives would probably think of some sort of dry vegetation they knew to be better for starting fires.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:04:01 EDT
From:         John Clauss
Subject:      Re: No Land Club Offensive

Mike, 

You are asking a number of questions about how, why and where we search. We have spent a lot of time trying to prioritize search areas and to figure the best way to search them efficiently.  The land, the lagoon and the reef are complex areas, each with it's own set of problems.

You ask about the lagoon.  Depth on the north west end is no more than ten meters and the bottom gradually shelves up to a depth of no more than three meters on the south east end.  Coral heads and outcroppings are randomly scattered around: many of these come to the surface. Visibility on an average day is about a meter. There is a fine murky silt on the bottom that is like talcum powder.  Stir it up and what little visibility you had will be gone. The salinity of the water is quite high.  Seawater circulation into the lagoon from the ocean only occurs during mid to high tides and is poor at best.  The only time there is decent flushing of these waters is during a storm surge with winds and swells from the west.  We had always wondered about this phenomenon and were able to see it first hand during the 97 expedition.  The water level can rise several feet at these times causing flooding of lowland areas.  Clarity is significantly better and water the temperature drops.

When the winds are calm for a day or more the silt settles out and the visibility increases to five meters or more.  We have seen this happen twice.  This is when things get really hot.

We have tended to rule out about half the lagoon as too shallow to hide an Electra.

During the War PBYs flew supply missions to Gardner, overflew and landed in these protected waters.

Demolition work was done to clear coral heads for a landing zone.  There has also been survey work and minerals exploration that involved taking bottom core samples.  Add in the boat traffic and a lot of people have been up and down that body of water.

Our feeling is that a substantially intact 10E would have been hard to miss - not impossible.  One of the  reasons that we took an ultralight with us in 97 was to do an aerial survey and be able to look directly down into the water.  Obviously we were hoping for a couple no wind days.

If we are looking for smaller pieces of the plane then we have another can of worms.  We either select small areas that have a higher probability of producing results or mount a lagoon wide, high tech (read high expense) search operation.  The latter would mean deploying sidescan sonar and magnetometer technology, gridding the entire lagoon and then doing follow on work with divers.  Not practical under any scenario that I can imagine. We chose to do the former; searching some limited areas with electromagnetic sensing equipment and divers.  We satisfied ourselves that there are no 10E engines or structures in these grids and now have a pretty good understanding of what it will take to conduct further search operations in this environment.

There are some specific areas that we would like to investigate further, but there is no good rational behind a lagoon wide search.  I think Ric would agree with me on this.  It all comes back to prioritizing these sites and using our limited time on the island intelligently.

We are planning on taking the ultralight back with us.  This will give us the opportunity to do a fairly quick look down survey into the lagoon and will allow us to do the same over the land.  There are some video and photographic possibilities here also.  We won't know how productive the plane will be till we have a chance to deploy it.

I would be happy to answer any specific questions or you can direct them to:

Van Hunn:  He has been underwater in the lagoon more than anyone.

Tommy Love: Has had the opportunity to dive the entire perimeter reef of Niku.

Kenton Spading:  Coordinated and ran the electromagnetic searches in the lagoon.

John Clauss  #142CE
***************************************************************

From Ric

I do indeed agree with John on this.  At present, the only portion of the lagoon to which I would devote resources is the stretch of water between the lagoon side entrance of Tatiman Passage and the shore of the lagoon peninsula known as Taraia.  We have an anecdotal account (Tapania on Funafuti) of airplane wreckage in the bush along the Nutiran shore and just offshore on the reef flat .  We have a similar account (Pulekai on Funafuti) of wreckage seen along the Taraia shore which faces the passage.  We know that storms tend to come out of the northwest  and drive water into the main passage.  It seems reasonable to think that wreckage originating on the reef flat near the oceanside mouth of the passage might end up on the Nutiran and Taraia shorelines.  Some wreckage may have made it into the lagoon but not all the way to the Taraia shore.  That's why I would consider searching the lagoon bottom in that area.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:18:33 EDT
From:         E. Lee
Subject:      Technology

For Niku IIII, what kind of equipment are you taking along, for how many days will you be there and how many people are going? Would it make sense to take close sorties aerial photos (so you can look at it 3D, model the landscape on computer, etc) of the entire island. Will you take a Bob Cat along for the digging and clearing? They are small enough to fit on a ship but can alleviate alot of sweat and agony for your investigators.

What about a small helicopter for aerial recconaisance? We would need a special nose mounted camera for IR, etc. What about borrowing some ground radar technology (like the stuff from Jurassic Park?).

Sorry for the many questions - I was wondering if you could take along every practical and known technology in existence today to unearth the aeroplane or any artifacts.

Thanks,

e lee

****************************************************************

From Ric

Niku IIII will, we hope, comprise about 30 days on-site with a team of about 14 people.  We plan to bring an ultra-light aircraft for aerial searching, photography and deployment of whatever technology is appropriate and obtainable.

We do not plan to bring ground vehicles or earthmoving equipment because:
a.  There is no good way to carry them on the ship.
b.  There is no way to get them ashore.
c.  We really don't need them anyway.

We'd love to have 3D aerial mapping of the island, but it's too expensive. Having the option "take along every practical and known technology in existence today to unearth the aeroplane or any artifacts" would be nice. Just make your check payable to TIGHAR.  Hollywood notwithstanding, and heretical as it is to say so, we've learned that technological marvels are not the answer to this kind of problem.  Brains and hard work are the answer.

Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:23:50 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: booze

Even if it can be documented that Noonan "had a drinking problem" or could have been classified as an alcoholic , what bearing would it have on Earhart's disappearance, as I simply refuse to believe she would have taken off on the most demanding & potentially dangerous leg of the flight with a "tanked-up" or "hung-over" navigator. She would have prudently waited one more day or until Noonan sobered-up.

Don Neumann
**************************************************************

From Ric

The film of a healthy, happy, sober Fred Noonan climbing aboard the Electra for the final takeoff is compelling evidence that alcohol was not a factor in the Earhart disappearance.  Our principle concern in investigating Fred's past is to establish what truths we can and correct whatever injustices may have been done to a true aviation pioneer.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:28:03 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Sextants

Jackie wrote:

>NOTHING would induce me to wreck my sextant!

....can't take it with you.

From Ric

Actually, what we're talking about is disassembling an attachment.  Not wrecking a sextant.
=======================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:34:22 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Aerial observation

> I'm trying to get a picture of Niku from the air at various tide states.
> Did you get the ultra-light flying on Niku-III ??
 >
> Ric:  Unfortunately, no.  The weather was too rough.  Next time - for sure -
> dammit.

How about a balloon, on a rope...., like they used for aerial observation during the Civil War. (Except you might want to use a stronger rope!)

Sandy

***************************************************************

From Ric

We've been 'round and 'round about this.  It's too windy for even a tethered ballon.  Kites are too unstable.  Helicopters are too maintenance intensive. The TIGHAR ultra-light (owned and flown by John Clauss) is a two-place, big- engined machine on floats.  After the experience of Niku III we've devised ways to transport it and deploy it more efficiently.   It should do a great job for us.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:09:02 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: booze

RE: The accident in Fresno where the officer noted "had been drinking"

Guess I missed something. What's the substantiation for this quote?

Blue skies, jham
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:10:40 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: booze

Sorry to go on about the drink thing but it will be addressed extensively in my book. I agree with Ric in that if an injustice has been done then I will do anything I can to undo it. On the other hand if Fred did have a drink problem I do not see that as a negative. It only makes him more heroic in my eyes that he was able to do what he did in spite of it.

Playing devil's advocate here IF he was an alcoholicTHEN the situation is different from simply being dead drunk and hung over. He would need to have a drink to function; to brush his teeth inthe morning. As for Amelia she could have thought well he's gotten us this far. And she knew all about alcoholism re her father. And he was still the BEST navigator.

Regards

Jackie
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:12:17 EDT
From:         Simon Ellwood
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: booze

Don Neumann wrote:

>Even if it can be documented that Noonan "had a
>drinking problem" or could have been classified as an alcoholic , what
>bearing would it have on Earhart's disappearance, as I simply refuse to
>believe she would have taken off on the most demanding & potentially
>dangerous leg of the flight with a "tanked-up" or "hung-over" navigator.
>She would have prudently waited one more day or until Noonan sobered-up.

I agree it has little relevance, as it is almost certain that Noonan got the L10 to within about 50 miles of Howland (strength 5 signals). That they didn't find Howland was clearly down to faulty/lacking radio DF proficiency & coordination, possibly (I speculate) coupled by bad visibility perception because of the strong early morning sun - low in the east straight ahead of them. And, of course, plain bad luck.

Simon Ellwood
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:19:32 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Noonan: East Anglia

>Scots dont have a drinking problem...

Same applies to Geordies.

You ask about history of alcoholism in Noonan/Greenfield family. Couldnt  say but Paul did say when he read about Fred's alleged problem that it would figure and the Noonans took over a pub in Norwich for a while! 'Alcoholism seems a bit strong though.

On why a Roscommon Man might move to East Anglia. Many Irish emigrated to England. They were employed in building canals railways and docks. My own ancestors came from Mayo to Hartlepool to excavate the docks. These canals etc were called Navigations hence the word Navvies  which is often used in a derogatory sense to describe Irishmen.

East Anglia is famous for its canals and has always been a home to Catholics if indeed Joseph Noonan was  a Catholic. Fred I believe was not however. Mixed marriage I think, children brought up C. of E (Norwich Fred that is).
Jackie

*************************************************************

From Ric

Thanks Jackie.  That makes sense.

In 1989, on the village-side shore of Tatiman Passsage, we came across an area where there had once been a structure and that was strewn with bottles.  We jokingly dubbed it Noonan's Tavern.  Odd to learn that there was indeed such a place in Norwich.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:27:40 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: marriage in Yuma

Ok, so I think I now know why Yuma for the marriage of Mary Bea and Fred.

The key clue was that there was virtually no coverage of the marriage in the Yuma paper. Only one line under the license to wed listings. Turns out that Yuma was the marriage capitol of the Southwest from the 1920's until 1956. This was because California had a three day wait and blood test requirement. Arizona did not. So the impatient love struck couples, including many movie stars and other famous persons, zipped over the border to get hitched.

So I think the scenario goes like this. Fred's divorce was filed March 3 and final approximately three weeks later. At that point he may not even know he is going on the flight as his participation is announced March 13. In any case, I suspect they take off before his divorce is final. Crack up plane in Hawaii, opportunity arises. He contacts Mary Bea and she meets him in LA when the Malolo docks in San Pedro March 25 (she has 5 days, plenty of time to pack and drive down to LA from Oakland). They drive to Yuma (about 300 miles southeast of LA) for a quick wedding on the 27th. They leave immediately and go do the proper thing by visiting her family in Merced, about 270 miles north of LA. Leaving Merced to return to Hollywood for the real honeymoon on April 4, and where Fred is working on business opportunities and the plane is being repaired, they have a little mishap in Fresno (about 50 miles south of Merced). Thus endith the scenario. Mileages from Rand McNally.

Blue skies, jham
***************************************************************

From Ric

Whoa.  My understanding was that Fred met Mary Bea for the first time aboard the Malolo enroute back from Honlulu.  She had been in Hawaii for an orchid show.

The rest of the scenario seems to work though.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:38:01 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: bone chasing

It sure looks like Jackie has found our Fred Noonan!  With all those sisters, there must be some of their children still around -- and there's the Greenfield side of the family.  Some of the Greenfields might be mtDNA candidates. We need those bones!
****************************************************************

From Ric

Jackie is till trying to confirm that the Norwich Fred is the right guy, but I'll admit that it does look promising.

On the bone hunt front, Kris Tague has tracked down and corresponded with the daughter of the British doctor (D.W. Hoodless) who examined the bones in Suva in 1941.  Unfortunately, there is no further reference to the bones in his papers, nor did he talk about the incident to his family (and he was, apparently, something of a storyteller).  We're still trying to get a handle on how curious and/or concerned the WPHC officials in Suva were about the bones.  On the one hand, we know that the matter was treated as "strictly secret" but we don't know whether the scarcity of common knowledge and official documents was due to apathy or its opposite.

Kris is till trying to find out what happened to the various collections of bones held until 1991 by the Central Medical School in Suva (of which Hoodless was the Principal in 1941).
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:44:08 EDT
From:         Vern Klein
Subject:      Bones: speculation

I see no really compelling evidence that two people died at the same location and at near the same time.  Many scenarios are possible to explain the presence of parts from a woman's shoe and a heel from a man's shoe at the campfire site. One or the other may well have moved on and survived for some time longer.  There may be other bones somewhere else.

***************************************************************

From Ric

As Ross Perot used to say, "I'm all ears."  Describe, if you would, a scenario where one person moves on but leaves his or her shoes behind.  This is an island where white folks really, really need their shoes.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:59:18 EDT
From:         Don Neumann
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: Booze

If your project does fail to produce either the Electra or the remains of its crew, I would suggest it might at least exonerate the late Mr. Noonan from all the many charges , over the years, of alcoholism &/or incompetence, which in all the popular material I've read, painted him as the overall "villain" of this story.   Whatever went wrong for this flight, between the Gilbert Islands & Howland Island, may forever  remain a mystery;  however responsibility for the outcome must be shared by many, including both the pilot & navigator, the U.S. Coast Guard & Navy, the federal govt. & not the least, George Palmer Putnam, for his consistent meddling in both the planning & execution of the flight, especially in rejecting valuable advice from seasoned, professionals in the field of aviation, which if accepted & followed, could very well have resulted in a successfully completed flight. (Unfortunately, given that scenario, the Earhart forum would never have existed & I would not be enjoying, in my retirement, the most enlightening, educational experience of my life!)
**************************************************************

From Ric

My goodness.  Thank you.  But this is not "my" project.  I merely have the honor and privilege of coordinating the efforts of hundreds of TIGHAR members.

Yes.  At the very least we want to correct the many myths and misconceptions which have grown up around the Earhart disappearance, including the villification of a man who was a true aviation pioneer - whether or not he struggled with the demon rum.

But I think we can do more than that.  I think we can find whatever is left of the airplane and maybe even its crew.  I think we can nail this thing solid like few historical mysteries have ever been nailed before.

Ric
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:02:23 EDT
From:         Gene Dangelo
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: booze

I quite agree that the presence or absence of a drinking problem for Fred Noonan is probably not a factor in the disappearance scenario. I can think of precious few pilots who would engage, rely upon the data from, or for that matter, tolerate a navigator whose professional faculties would be so compromised, especially in such a high-profile trip as this one was. I'm also sure that Earhart didn't just grab navigator names out of a hat to acquire one, either. She did have something of a professional reputation to maintain. She would certainly not have deliberately jeopardized the potential good outcomes of this flight by taking on shaky or flaky personnel. Too much was at stake from a public relations point of view, and make no mistake that even in 1937, that angle would've had to be considered. Also consider this: the consumption of alcohol speeds up the dehydration of the body. The evidence found so far implies indirectly that Noonan may have had to bury Earhart if the remains are hers. Would not someone who was so dependent on alcohol be drinking at every opportunity, and hence be the FIRST to dehydrate and/or die in the tropical exposure? The very implication that Fred may have survived Amelia may tend to discount the alcoholism theory! I don't think it bears a lot more argument. Thanks for enduring my ramblings! --Best wishes to all, Gene Dangelo :)
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:14:47 EDT
From:         David Kelly
Subject:      International sextant arson

Ric wrote:

>Now we have people in Missouri and Fife trying to start fires using nautical
>sextants.  The really bizarre thing is that it is perfectly legitimate
>experimental research.

From David

I may live to regret starting this......

****************************************************************
From Ric

...and it was all started by an Aussie.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:58:06 EDT
From:         David Kelley
Subject:      Niku IIII team slection

Are you going to be selling seats for Niku IIII....if so how much and when will it be?

***************************************************************

From Ric

Niku IIII is now scheduled for Sept/Oct of 1999.  We expect to use the same ship we used for Niku III in 1997, the 120 ft motorsailer Nai'a out of Fiji. It is our hope that we'll be able to have a full 30 days at the island.

Nai'a can carry 18 passengers.  We always have a representative from Kiribati with us and we'll probably have a three-person film crew aboard, so that leaves 14 berths for the scientific party.  One of the keys to the success we've experienced in running these expeditions is that we have separated the staffing of the expedition from the issue of fund-raising.  These are not adventure-holidays.  In many ways, an expedition to Nikumaroro is a 19th century enterprise and no aspect of the endeavor is more important than the selection of the participants.  Team members are volunteers who donate their time.  The organization covers all expenses from the port of embarkation to return.  All we ask from a team member in return is his or her very soul (just kidding).

This system has enabled us, over the years, to assemble and distill a small group of dedicated people who a) have proven themselves under fire (as it were); b) know each other, like each other, respect each other, and get along with each other under stress better than most families; c) know the evidence, the island, and the technology.

We are, understandably, reluctant to disturb that formula.  On the other hand, the best team in the world is of no use if we can't get it to the island. Funding the  expeditions is the real adventure at TIGHAR.  Everything else is anti-climax.  Niku IIII is going to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $300,000.  A really significant contribution toward that goal would tempt us to put the donor on the team (if that was what they wanted).  For the Kanton Mission, which had the advantages of being of very short duration (3 days) and relatively low budget ($50,000), we accepted a few sponsor/team members from among long-time TIGHAR supporters whom we knew well.  It worked out great.

Bottom line:  the Niku IIII team is set except for maybe one or two berths. If you're rich enough, and are willing to be just one of the gang, and understand that these trips consist mostly of hard, tedious, usually disappointing, and sometimes dangerous work - let's talk.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:33:02 EDT
From:         Sandy Campbell
Subject:      Metallurgical concerns

Ric wrote:

>The salinity of the water is quite high.

Just curious....,  What is the metallic composition of rivets & stringers of the Electra?

Sandy

****************************************************************

From Ric

The stringers, bulkheads and skins of the Electra were made of an aluminum alloy known back then as 24ST Alclad.  It was virtually identical to modern 2024 Alclad. The rivets were 17 AD alloy.

We know from direct experience that these materials survive very well on land on Niku.  We've never found any aluminum in the water there (ocean, reef, or lagoon) and so can not say how well it holds up in that environment.  If other South Pacific atoll environments are any indication, the aluminum will survive quite well underwater but will be highly unstable once exposed to the air.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:42:24 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Noonan Proj.: Fresno accident

No hard evidence - just this quote from ( I think) Goerners book.

A few days later, on March 27th,1937 Mary B. Martinelli and Frederick J. Noonan were married in Yuma Arizona. The same weekas they were driving through California, their car smashed head on into another. The investigating police officer cited Fred for driving in the wrong lane. A note at the bottom of the traffic ticket said," No injuries. Driver had been drinking."

I had photocopied this but rather stupidly forgot to note which book it was, except that it is called The Search for Amelia Earhart. I think thats Goerner's book isn't it?

To be taken wirh a pinch of salt for sure but out of the Amelia biographies I have read Goerner at least gets some of it right especially re. the Crompton which I do have hard evidence for. Some of the others are way out on this.

Regards meeting Mary an article in the San Francisco Chronicle cites him as having met her when employed with PanAm ie. before the Crack up.

Regards

Jackie

***************************************************************

From Ric

It's very possible that Goerner (yes, that's his book) actually tracked down a copy of the ticket.  He was could be meticulous.  There may be a copy in his papers at the Nimitz Museum or we may be able to find it wherever he found it. That would be a significant piece of evidence.

I think that it's also important to establish how long Fred knew Mary Bea before they were married.  If they really met for the first time aboard the Malolo, that paints a very different picture than if they known each other for some time.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:55:08 EDT
From:         Jackie Ferrari
Subject:      Noonan - dehydration

Ive often thought about the dehydration thing. Yes I am sure that physically Fred would have been in a sorry state if he was an alcoholic and of the two of them Amelia would be the fitter assuming she was not ill or injured in some other way. She might have had dysentery and could therefore be more dehydrated than Fred. If Fred was an alcoholic I think the DT's might have been a problem however....

Regards

Jackie
***************************************************************

From Ric

I'd like to comment on the dysentery thing.  One of the new wrinkles in the whole Earhart saga is the totally unfounded notion that Amelia was somehow terribly debilitated, exhausted, and perhaps even afflicted with dysentery at the time of the final flight. This is a new Amelia-for-the-90s -  a victim, pressured by her Svengali husband to fly when she should have been recovering. AE's "personnel unfitness" telegram  of June 30 may well be interpreted as a need for a day's rest before setting off for Howland (they had arrived from Darwin on the 29th) but there is nothing in the literature to indicate that either Earhart or Noonan was ill.  Earhart's notes referencing nausea due to gas fumes in the cockpit during the South Atlantic crossing and a digestive upset after a huge banquet of rich food in Batavia, Netherlands East Indies have been quoted out of context as evidence of a stomach ailment.

The available contemporaneous documents indicate that the delay in departure from Lae was due entirely to maintenance needs on the aircraft and difficulties in receiving accurate time checks needed by Noonan to set his chronometers.  It is true that Putnam (and Amelia herself) hoped that she would be home in time for media commitments on the Fourth of July.  It was not safe to depart in time to make those commitments and Amelia didn't go.

The castaway(s) of Gardner island had sufficient energy to get to Aukaraime from somewhere else on the island, kill birds and a turtle, build a campfire, etc.  That does not, to me, sound like someone plagued by dysentery or the DTs.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:13:32 EDT
From:         Asa Bricker
Subject:      The British Connection

Recently I finished the book `The Earhart Disappearance, The British Connection' by J. A. Donahue. Published by the Aviation Heritage Library Series 1987.

How do you compare the information contained in this book to the information gathered during TIGHAR's investigation?

thanks
Asa Bricker

***************************************************************

From Ric

The British Connection is an enlightening, if somewhat frightening, excursion into the warped world of the conspiracy buff.  Nothing is what it seems. Every word in every message or letter has a secret meaning.  Every action has an ulterior motive.  Absence of evidence is proof of a cover-up. Fantasy becomes fact which, in turn, is used to support ever more elaborate fantasies, until Earhart's entire world flight is a massive intelligence-gathering mission.

For someone who is familiar with the Earhart case, Donahue's book is absolutely maddening.  He lays out fact after fact after fact and then throws in, as just one more fact, something that is totally whacko.  Then he tell you what all those normal looking facts really mean and draws a conclusion that is completely off the wall.

Of course, the book is un-indexed and un-footnoted, so unless you're ready to double-check everything yourself, the only way to deal with Donahue is to not believe any of it.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:33:31 EDT
From:         Jerry Hamilton
Subject:      Noonan - Mary Bea

Ric wrote:

>My understanding was that Fred met Mary Bea for the first time aboard
>the Malolo enroute back from Honlulu.  She had been in Hawaii for an orchid
>show.

I hadn't seen any evidence for the meeting on the Malolo and its the kind of romantic item you'd expect to get commented on. So I went with the more prosaic assumption they probably met in Oakland, where they both lived, not that far apart actually. However, given that life is often more dramatic than soap operas, I can conceive of them meeting at Mary Bea's hair salon when Fred accompanies his first wife on her appointment!! Maybe she was in Hawaii for a flower show (although that seems like a big expense for a hobby when she's running a hair salon business) and also to see him on the first leg of the flight. Mantz's fiancee met him over there and came back on the Malolo. Speculation can be such fun.

I'm following up on Jackie's comment that the SF Tribune says they met earlier.

Blue skies, jham
***************************************************************

From Ric

Don Jordan, help us out here.  Does the met-aboard-the-ship story come from Mary Bea's family?
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:12:23 EDT
From:         Russ Matthews
Subject:      Noonan - Mary Bea

As I recall the met-aboard-ship story was not specific about which ship.  I think we all just assumed it was the S.S. Malolo because that's the only crossing we know of at the moment.  Is it possible that Fred made another ocean voyage from Hawaii to California some time earlier - perhaps while he was still with Pan Am?  It certainly wasn't unheard of in those days for fliers to travel by air in one direction and return by sea in the other.

  KB
***************************************************************

From Don Jordan

When I first contacted Rose Passadori (Mary's 95 year old sister-in-law) she said, "They met on that boat" She did not say "On that boat from Hawaii"  At least I don't recall her saying that.

        As I was typing this I called Rose on the phone to ask her again.  She said they met on the boat and didn't know each other very long before they got married.  She (Rose) met him (Fred) once.  Then she said "Maybe she met Harry (Ireland) on the boat, I don't remember too well, it was a long time ago"

        So.....who knows!  Just have to wait for the letters and scrap books.

Don

***************************************************************

From Ric

Yeah.  I'll also be interested to know more about the San Francisco Chronicle article which alleges that they met while Fred was with Pan Am.
=======================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:19:02 EDT
From:         Teresa
Subject:      Noonan - booze

I'm sorry, but I disagree with the statement:

>the consumption of alcohol speeds up the dehydration of the  body.

The evidence found so far implies indirectly that Noonan may have had to bury Earhart if the remains are hers. Would not someone who was so dependent on alcohol be drinking at every opportunity, and hence be the FIRST to dehydrate and/or die in the tropical exposure? True that comsuming alcohol dehydrates you faster, yet, if a good friend of yours was dieing in front of you, would you go out and drink? Or would your human side shine by holding her hand? And I believe that Fred knew how important the flight was for Amelia, why would he throw it away by drinking? And maybe Amelia didn't die of dehydration, what if she (just an idea) severly damaged her back or other body part that can bleed or leave you immobile?

-Teresa

**************************************************************

From Ric

Given the distinct shortage of bars on Gardner Island I would have to assume that even the most ardent drinker would be limited to what he had brought with him.  A bottle of Benedictine seems an odd choice but, when found, it contained either nothing or fresh water (depending on whether you believe Gallagher of Kilts).