Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:56:50 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Research Needs I admit to a bias towards the new SAR imagery capabilities. Foliage would decrease the effectiveness but not totally negate its usefulness. I have to back off a bit. When you've been working with a hammer the whole world looks like a nail. I agree that given only one choice, multi-spectral imagery would also be my choice. I forgot that the search area would have to encompass more then the beach. I mentioned SAR because there's been an increased willingness to allow those platforms to be used for archeological research. But it's fruitless to discuss the merits of one system over the other because they both suffer from the same problem. Range resolution. I don't foresee any publicly available space based imaging system giving the necessary resolution to identify the size target we're talking about. So in either case were talking about an aircraft. Other areas of the world have the advantage of having platforms all ready flying routine missions. Asking for a few extra photos isn't that difficult (Yea I know --- easy for you to say). Short of the Gilbert Islands declaring war on Hawaii I think we're out of luck for military aircraft. A long shot is if NASA was flying a U-2 to conduct atmospheric studies in the South Pacific. But I wouldn't hold my breath on that coincidence either. Unfortunately it looks like the most likely scenario is a private charter aircraft-carrying camera. Back to my suggestion of a few week back. 35 mm camera with IR film and hope we get lucky. Warren *************************************************************** From Ric So, if I've got this right, we don't need to worry about tracking down existing satellite imagery because it's not going to give us the resolution we need anyway. There is technology out there which, if deployed from an aircraft, might very well provide the information we're looking for but we're up against the same old problem of our island being in such a remote location that we're practically the only people who ever go there. That means either: 1. Chartering a specialized aircraft to fly a dedicated mission, or 2. Talking a government agency or private sector vendor into flying a freebie for us. The cost of pursuing option number 1 probably exceeds the cost of mounting a conventional surface expedition to go look in the bushes. Pursuing option number 2 is almost as expensive because of the time involved in trying to sell our mission to possible sources of help. I don't mean to be negative, but I spent nearly a year trying to get some kind of military C-130 mission to Kanton approved. Despite many hundreds of hours of work, written proposals, endless correspondence, encouraging initial reactions, meetings, help from our senator, etc., the trail always ended in a bureaucratic brick wall. As you know, we ended up paying cash money to charter an airplane to do what we coud afford to do. The experience has left me a bit hesitant to once more begin making cold calls. I wonder if we might be better off concentrating our efforts on putting together the next search expedition to Nikumaroro. If we suspected that Amelia had landed on the dark side of the moon we'd have no choice but to seek out hi-tech ways of searching for her. But Niku isn't quite that inaccessible. Am I missing something here? Ric ================================================================ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:39:36 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: questions QUESTIONS From Mike Ruiz ANSWERS from Ric: QUESTION: Is there a section on the island long enough to take off from? ANSWER: Yes. Just east of Bauareke Passage (the southern lagoon passage) in the Aukaraime South district, there is a 1,200 foot long area of flat, hard coral rubble that is periodically overwashed in storms and, in 1937, was free of vegetation. It is oriented directly into the prevailing wind. About a quarter mile east is the site where the bones, etc. were found. QUESTION: Status of bones search in Sydney? ANSWER: So far we know that the Anthropology Dept. has no collection. We'll be checking Prof. Elkin's papers to see if ever looked at the bones. There's also a chance that they went to England. We're looking into that possibility also.. QUESTION: Timing of next expedition? ANSWER: We had to forego our deposit payment on the ship in order to pay for the Kanton Mission so we lost our time slot for this fall. We only had the ship for 21 days anyway and, with 5 days enroute each way, it really didn't give us enough time on site. We'd want about a month at the island. Whether we do the expedition later this year with a different ship or have to wait until next year will depend entirely upon the availability of a ship and adequate funding. It's always a struggle. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:00:06 EST From: R. Batista Subject: Research needs It seems to me that there is much discussion on pursuing a complex, costly hi-tech solution. Why not spend money more effectively pursuing a remote controlled or tethered aerial photography balloon with a large format camera that can shoot different spectrums of film. You can then easily process the film on site, scan the image into Photoshop and enhance the image for analysis. All while your are there on your planned "sail-in". This way you can shoot and re-shoot with out having to spend 10's of thousands of dollars on corporate jet in order to make a couple more fly-bys. These balloons are less costly than an ultralight, more flexible, and of course safer (no-fly, no-die). *************************************************************** From Ric We've considered using a tethered balloon for photography but have rejected the idea due to the wind conditons and the difficulty in aiming the camera so as to get the shots we would want. We've also tried kites and found that to be even more impractical. If we're already there on the ground our need for aerial photography is minimal. The whole idea is to get information without having to actually sail out there. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:27:00 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Welcome to the Earhart Forum Welcome to TIGHAR's Amelia Earhart Search Forum (EARHARTFORUM). Even if you have already received a welcome message, you may want to read through this because we've set some new guidelines for postings to the forum. You recently received a notice from the company that services this email list entitled "You have been added to the EARHARTFORUM list." It attempts to tell you how to send postings to the list, take yourself off the list, change the way you receive the postings, etc., but it was apparently written by a Computer Science major who should have taken a few more Liberal Arts courses (like maybe English Comp. 101). In the interest of preserving your sanity, here's a simplified and, I hope, more comprehensible guide to using this forum. How the EARHARTFORUM works. Any subscriber to the list can post a message which is then sent to all other subscribers. You can address your post to a particular recipient, but everybody gets to see what everybody else says. How to receive the postings as a digest. Postings will come to you as regular email messages almost immediately after they're posted to the forum. Most people, however, prefer to receive the day's postings to the forum in one lump message (called a digest). To receive the postings as a digest just send an email to: listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com In the text of your message say: SET EARHARTFORUM DIGEST How to send a message to the forum. To send a message for posting on the forum just send whatever you want to say in an email to this address: Earhartforum@home.ease.lsoft.com This is a moderated forum. All postings come to me first so that I have an opportunity to head-off advertising and inappropriate material. On rare occasions when I reject a posting I'll email the person who submitted the rejected message and tell him or her why I have not posted their message. Our purpose here is to promote an intelligent and productive discussion of the Earhart disappearance. Specifically, we want to further our investigation of TIGHAR's hypothesis that Earhart and Noonan, and probably the airplane, ended up on Gardner Island (now known as Nikumaroro) in the Phoenix Group. We will not discuss conspiracy theories on this forum, nor will we debate whether the airplane crashed at sea near Howland. We feel that we have already established a strong probability that the flight arrived in the vicinity of Howland Island pretty much on schedule and, as of the last officially received radio transmission, had adequate remaining fuel to reach Gardner Island. The question is, did it? Likewise, we will not discuss Earhart's personality, previous record-setting flights, love life, place in history, etc. unless it directly pertains to the discovery, verification, or disqualification of evidence relating to her disappearance. Prior to posting messages to the forum, subscribers are urged to familiarize themselves with the evidence described on the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org We recognize that this forum is not for every Earhart enthusiast. Some may find us unsuitably irreverent or excessively scientific in our approach. But if you're interested in hard answers instead of idle speculation, we think you'll enjoy what happens here. To take yourself off the forum. Send an email to: listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com In the text of your message say: DELETE EARHARTFORUM youremailaddress That's all there is to it. If you find that you're having problems with the forum, or just want to contact me privately, email me, Richard (Ric) Gillespie, at TIGHAR1@AOL.com Thanks, and welcome aboard. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:43:59 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Research needs Ric wrote: >Am I missing something here? Nope. You're right. We got off on a hi-tech discussion when the basic problem is just getting there. The satellite-based products are a real long shot for producing sufficient quality to assist. I'll try to keep my suggestions focused on putting a set of Mark 1 eyeballs and a shovel on scene. Warren *************************************************************** From Darren Rose I'm new to the AE Search Forum and have just recieved my enrollment package. I will be sending my membership dues this week. It's obvious that TIGHAR has a group of motivated and intelligent people who participate in this forum. You mentioned that you are very busy with other responsibilities; and to feel free to conduct independent research. Why not organize forum members into research teams to assist you in doing some leg work for you. Soon to be TIGHAR member, Darren Rose *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Darren. This is probably a good place to outline how TIGHAR's Earhart research network works. There is a group of TIGHAR members made up of expedition team members and experts in a variety of disciplines who are deeply involved in Earhart research. Most, if not all, of them are also subscribers to this forum and several are frequent posters. Those of you who have been on the forum for a while will recognize the names Randy Jacobson and Kenton Spading (for example). The members of the research group communicate with each other and with me via direct email to coordinate their various lines of investigation. The administrative nitty-gritty of their work does not belong on the forum. However, when there is news we put the word out via the website and the forum and also to the non-cyber TIGHARs via snailmail. The function of the forum in the research process is still evolving. It's clear that the forum's wide distribution is an excellent means of broadcasting our needs and obtaining valuable suggestions about new sources of information as well as intelligent comment and opinion. It is our practice not to assign specific research projects to non-members, but with more and more forum subscribers joining the organization that's becoming less and less an issue. It has been astounding how, over the past couple of years, the Internet and email have revolutionized not only our research procedures but also the logistics of mounting expeditions. Now if we could also figure out how to revolutionize our fund-raising....... Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:03:07 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Fly now or Niku 4? Ric wrote: (and asked for opinions) >I wonder if we might be better off concentrating our efforts on putting >together the next search expedition to Nikumaroro. If we suspected that >Amelia had landed on the dark side of the moon we'd have no choice but to seek >out hi-tech ways of searching for her. But Niku isn't quite that inaccessible. Getting the government to fly to Niku for free OR for money is very remote. I work for the Department of Defense (DOD), U.S. Army. Except in very rare cases, you do not use government equipment unless you have a direct connection of some kind to DOD, no matter how noble the mission may be. Typically you will get a warm response from lower level people who have never played the games in Washington. That all changes once the request hits the Capitol City. Hats off to Ric for trying to pull this off!! Will a private firm fly to Niku for Free? Not likely either. I would concentrate on putting together Niku 4 (and maybe Kanton 2?). But, the idea behind using remote sensing imagery on Niku is good (i.e. is the airplane in the bush??) I believe the question of whether or not a relatively large piece of the airplane rests on the island needs to be answered as part of future Niku missions. A team (2 people?) could be sent out to attempt to answer that question. Yes, it is big island. After you eliminate the previously populated surveyed searched areas, the rest is doable. There is, of course more to it than just walking around, but that is another story. Forget flying the island for now, use manpower later to accomplish the intended goal. Kenton Spading ================================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:26:55 EST From: Jerry Ellis Subject: membership Finally--payday! Dues are in the mail. Great effort. About all I can give now is $ and moral support. Great forum. It takes lots of time to deal with e-mail, please protect what you've got of it. Good luck. Jerry W. Ellis Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Eastern Illinois University ************************************************************ From Ric Thanks Jerry. You know the old saying. When you have $ and moral support, you have almost everything. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:17:56 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Research needs >I did some preliminary checking on the USGS website >(http:edcwww.cr.usgs.govdclassdclass.html) and could get no hits. > I suspect that coverage of good old Niku is real scarce. Ric, Is it not possible that there might be more recent *photographic*, etc, imagery of the Pacific waters, with all the El Nino hub-bub?! Or is Niku too far west of that? Just a thought, aye.... -Sandy ************************************************************** From Ric Seems possible but we've pretty much concluded that satellite imagery won't give us the resolution we need. Ric ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:41:24 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Satellite imagery Still pursuing satellite info, Preliminary inputs from individuals who are supposed to be knowledgeable in this area tell me there is at least one satellite recently launched with a 1 mm resolution that should be able to detect aluminum thru dense foliage and under 18-25 feet of water; there is a launch this month of one that supposedly will find anything anywhere, point and shoot capability in both cases. SOme feel numerous existing older satellites can do the job, hard to tell, have to sort alot of stuff out from alot of sources and must ask alot more questions, bottom line, alot of capability floating around up there. Mike *************************************************************** From Ric That's at least more encouraging than what we've heard up to now. Glad you're pursuing this. It would be nice if NASA decided that a hard look at Niku would be a good test for the new technology. Ric ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:46:13 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Noonan's map Did you ever come across a copy of Noonan's map, was it a late 1800's shipping chart? *************************************************************** From Ric Obviously, whatever chart(s) Fred used on the Lae/Howland leg are not exactly accessible. The charts he used on the South Atlantic crossing earlier in the trip are in the special Collection at Purdue. They are good, current issue (for the time) charts. Randy Jacobson has done a ot of work with these charts which contain Noonan's original navigational notations. He may be able to comment further on this subject. Ric ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:49:35 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Satellite imagery As mentioned earlier, am finding satellite options numerous and complex. Trying to get alot sorted out, possibilities may exist in this area. I am also told former (and probably current) Russian spy satellites with "astounding capabilities" are now available for commercial purposes (again point and shoot), at "very reasonable prices", another lead that needs to be checked......... *************************************************************** From Ric Lordy. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:11:36 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Forum Fairness I am a new Forum member and have been following the fairness question discussion with interest. I have not joined TIGHAR, although I'm leaning that way. I have had a 20 year interest in Earhart and would like to follow developments, and be helpful if I can. I applaud the openness with which it is currently being run, partly from a selfish standpoint, but mostly because it multiplies brainpower and leg-power resources. However, my cynical side says that in a society which values showtime over substance there are lots of unscrupulous people looking to make a buck or get their 15 minutes of fame the easy way. Someone could join the Forum, or TIGHAR, and use the shared information to get their own funding/support for solving one of the great mysteries of the Twentieth Century. In that case, TIGHAR would most likely be left high and dry and the investigation butchered in the name of "selling the story". Two possibilities occur to me. Key, critical detail (like the specific location of the Canton engine) may need to be excluded from even Forum discussions to protect the integrity of TIGHAR investigations. Or can Forum and TIGHAR members sign an agreement that prohibits them from directly, or indirectly, aiding other efforts with TIGHAR findings and information? Something I'd certainly be willing to agree to. Just some thoughts from a new member. Blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Ric If we were looking for a treasure buried in a State Park, I'd worry about disclosing specific location information. But the fact of the matter is that for anyone to do anything in the places we're talking about requires the expenditure of tens of thousands of dollars just to get there. For all the hoopla over Earhart in the 60 (now almost 61) years since she disappeared, TIGHAR is the ONLY entity (individual or organization), other than the U.S. Navy in 1937, that has mounted and carried out on-site investigations anywhere in the Pacific that involved more than buying airline tickets and maybe hiring a local boat. We won't ask forum members to sign any confidentiality agreements. If there is information that needs to be protected we have a good way of doing that. We just don't tell anybody. Thanks for your input Jerry. Ric ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:12:29 EST From: Susan Subject: Satellite Imagery I've talked to some friends in the Willy Ley Society. They suggest that you contact a senator or two and request the necessary information. It is supposed to be publically available, and FREE! Perhaps if we all wrote to our senators. . . If you will give me the exact coordinates and a laundry list of what you need, I will try to go through some Science Fiction fans who work at NASA. Meanwhile you might pursue the Congressional route. I hope this will help forward things. Susie ************************************************************** From Ric The coordinates for Nikumaroro are 4 degrees 40 minutes South Latitude, 174 degrees 32 minutes West Longitude. We need imagery that will enable us to identify the location, but not necessarily the exact nature, of metal debris obscured by dense vegetaton or under up to 7 meters of water to a resolution of at least 5 meters. Howzat? Let's hold off on a letter-writing campaign until we get some more input on what may actually be available. Ric *************************************************************** From Clyde Miller The folks at USGS have done a search on the available multispectrum photos (apparently some 22 different ones from 1990 and 1991) and returned the interpretations to me via fax. The details are for W174 32 and S4 41. Unfortunately the interpretation of the data is currently beyond me. It will take a week or so for me to even understand what I have. I would be willing to fax the information to anyone who could interpret and sift through to discern if any of these images would be worth purchasing. These are SPOT images. with detail about cloud coverage, I angle, shift range and corner points. They were taken by SPOT1 and SPOT2 satellites. All of the photos are cloud free according to the details. Sorry I've reached my peter principal for today on interpretation. Thanks Clyde Miller ************************************************************** From Ric Hey, way to go Clyde! 22 images is a good start. Anybody out there have the expertise to help Clyde figure out what he has? *************************************************************** From Pat Johannes Ric wrote: >It would be nice if NASA decided that a hard look at Niku >would be a good test for the new technology. Badly needed publicity for them, too, if it works Pat Johannes **************************************************************** From Randy Jacobson Well, if there is such a satellite with 1 millimeter resolution, it would not be available to the public! Even the very classified satellites do not have that kind of resolution! Sorry, Mike, but someone is pulling your chain, or you have your units mixed up! *************************************************************** From Mike Ruiz We have contacted the Russians. They will let us know if: a.) they are willing to use their technology that will see the potential debris field; if yes, then b.) Can they get Niku, if yes; c.) How much do they want; and d.) how quickly they can do it. We may need some Absolut (Red Label). Mike *************************************************************** From Ric This is getting Absolutly wild. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:15:43 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Noonan's Maps The maps Noonan used for the South Atlantic crossing consisted of two sections: east and west. I never made copies of the western half (there were no annotations regarding the flight on it), but the eastern one was the standard map available from the US gov't Printing Office, Hydrographic Office Map # 956a at a scale of 5 degrees per 4 inches. It was bought from a commerical map firm, as were most of the charts used by Noonan that reside in the Purdue Archives. For over-land flights, they often used topographic charts, with prominent landmarks as navigational waypoints or beacons to double-check their navigation. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:15:12 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Satellite imagery To Randy: 1 meter resolution (.8 actually), not 1 millimeter....... To Clyde: We can probably read them, fax is 757-864-7890, SPOT information is among the many recommendations we are receiving these days........... Mike ************************************************************* From Kenton Spading, TIGHAR No. 1382CE I have information on commercial satellites for hire. All you need is a credit card. I will check on this and report back. Kenton Spading *************************************************************** From Chuck Jackson i dont believe 1 mm resolution via satellite!!!! sombody's smoking somethin. look into SPOT---the french COMMERCIAL imaging satellite. no need to battle govt bureaus----just have the bucks ready. better resolution than many military sats!!!!! a contact i made a yr or so ago at stanford u earth sci dept says they occnly purchase spot stuff at a couple grand a hit----should cost little to find out what they already have and get a bid on coverage you want.....probably more cost effective than many TIGHAR activities. could be too---that some univ has already got the coverage u/we/usns want and u could view it FREE!!!!!!!!???????? ask and ye...................LOVE TO MOM i'll try to find that stanford contact ************************************************************** From Clyde Miller If wishes were pennies. Check out the plane we need at: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9803/03/global.hawk Clyde Miller *************************************************************** From Ric That has to be the UGLIEST aeroplane on the block, and besides, there are no license plates to read on Niku. (Sour Grapes Dept.) ================================================================ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:58:47 EST From: Barbara Wiley Subject: Noonan's Map Mike: I was at Trader Vic's Restaurant in 1988, hosted for lunch by Fred Goerner and his friend, Ken Ackerman(one of the first anchor men on TV back in the 50's. Fred showed me Noonan's map, it had been given to him during his daze of research on A.E. It was authentic. I suggest that it is with his other archives that he willed to a Texas? museum. His wife, (former Zellerbach) in San Francisco would have the location of museum fyi. Barbara *************************************************************** From Ric Betcha it was the Nimitz Museum given Fred's relationship with the admiral. Easy enough to check on that. I'm curious Barbara. What was it a map OF? And how do you know that it was authentic? Ric ================================================================ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:38:29 EST From: Amanda Dunham Subject: Satellite Imagery They just announced the first female shuttle pilot-in-command. (see CNN article http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9803/03/nasa.woman/index.html) NASA needs good publicity and this might be a really positive & sentimental opportunity. I work for NASA, but on a different side of the house, so unfortunately I don't have any contacts to suggest. NASA Headquarters' information operator is 202-358-0000. Amanda Dunham *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Amanda. **************************************************************** From Warren Schilling I checked out the SPOT commercial web site a few days back. The best resolution offered was 10 meters. There is a lot more competition between satellite imagery companies now. I haven't had time to check them all out. While it's possible that someone may be offering a platform with better resolution, I doubt that any are offering the quality that would be sufficiently useful to justify the expense. Even if we could get an amazing 1-meter resolution, the object couldn't be clearly identified as an aircraft engine. At best they would offer a fuzzy "something" for some one to check out on the ground. Back to the original problem. Even if satellite imagery gave you several candidate sites you'd have to actually visit the location to make a positive identification. An aircraft could get much better resolution. But if you had an aircraft over the island then why not land and check it out with Mark 1 high resolution eyeballs? I do agree however that overhead imagery could help to point the ground team to candidate sites. Eliminating unlikely areas would make their time on the island more productive. My "in the best of all worlds" suggestion would be: 1. Get the best available free satellite imagery of the island to reduce the search area. 2. The aircraft bringing the team in would fly low over candidate sites and take photos using at a minimum IR imagery. Develop the film on the spot (no pun intended). A small 35-mm film development kit isn't a major technical obstacle. 3. The ground team would review the images taken from the aircraft and proceed to investigate those sites that hold the greatest promise. 4. The team would have all the equipment necessary for the necessary exploration and excavation of candidate sites. Easy. All we need is around 150,000 dollars. Suggestion on how we pay for the trip would be of great interest. Warren PS: My dues are in the mail. $149,990 to go and counting. **************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Warren. 1. There is no where to land an airplane on Niku (and expect to take off again). 2. Our principle desire for aerial imagery is not so much to do a general search but to confirm or deny a couple of specific locations indicated by former residents and which appear to be at least somewhat corroborated by existing aerial photos. 3. For about $200,000 we can mount the NIKU IIII Expedition and go there and look for ourselves. Ric **************************************************************** From Mike Ruiz I have a suggestion to Forum members interested in the Satellite Hunt. Each day I (like Clyde, Kenton and other TIGHAR and forum members) am finding companies and countries that provide satellite imagery. If participants are interested, I will volunteer to develop a matrix spreadsheet to include information we need to make a reasoned, well informed decision on any option that involves spending money. I am finding the options complex. Clyde is also. He did a great job getting the Spot info, and that's going to take some analysis just to figure out if its worth buying. If Ric and others agree, e-mail me information at linvil@msn.com. I will build a spreadsheet that contains the essentials, and we (those that have submitted inputs) can review the sheet and rank each option based on our collective brainpower. And by the way, if there is a forum member out there who is a super hi-tech satellite expert (which I am not), maybe you will volunteer to do the matrix? If not, I'm happy to pitch in and do the best I can. Once we agree on final rankings, we can submit our findings to Ric for his consideration. Thoughts, comments? **************************************************************** From Ric Sounds great to me. **************************************************************** From Bob Brown I couldn't resist jumping in here. I have worked with people using satellite data for the last seven or eight years and SPOT is by no means better than the military stuff. It is very low resolution compared to military data. The new category of civillian satellites called Smallsats are much higher resolution, (size of pixels), than the Spot data. Also, the hyperspectral stuff on some of the newer satellites offers many more spectral bands for extracting information from the images. My company has used SPOT data for several years buying about $200,000 worth annualy. It is an excellent general survey tool but would probably be of no use for what you are trying to do. Please don't take this message wrong. I am not trying to flame anyone, just sharing what I know. Hope it helps put things in perspective. I have been a professional geographer involved in mapping and geographical information systems for thirty years. Bob **************************************************************** From Ric Sounds like you may have the experience and expertise in working with this stuff that Mike is looking for. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:24:53 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Satellite Imagery Mike, Great idea on the satellite matrix. I will send you my info when I get it. (commercial satellites) Kenton Spading ************************************************************* From aa2309@wayne.edu Some people do this for a living... I would like to refer the members of TIGHAR to http://eleftheria.stcloudstate/arsc This site will give you a good overview of what is available on-line or commercially, and also some idea how to use it, with links. This might be worthwhile for historic aircraft searches other than AE as well. I suspect that someone has a program to search for wreck debris fields, but it might be classifed. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:53:18 EST From: Ann Subject: Niku Just one quick question. What is the area size of Niku? I ask this question in reference to the mention of ground surveys in place of aerial surveys (is this the term I mean?). Received my Tighar membership card and window sticker today. Ann **************************************************************** From Ric We've never actually calculated how many square acres or hectares or cubic furlongs the island contains. As you can see from the map, it's a ribbon of land which varies from roughly an eighth to a quarter mile in width surrounding a lagoon that is nearly four miles long. If you stretched it out in a straight line you'd have a strip of land of varying width about ten miles long. Most of it is covered with dense vegetation. In short, it's a very hard place to search. In four trips we've covered much, but by no means all, of it. One of the areas of shoreline that has received almost no attention is the very area where former residents describe seeing airplane wreckage. We didn't hear those stories until we were on our way home from Niku last year. Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:11:05 EST From: Craig Fuller Subject: Satellite Imagery I tried: http://eleftheria.stcloudstate/arsc and could not find the server. Is this the correct address or was the server down when I tried? Craig Fuller Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research AAIR www.sonic.net/azfuller ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:36:05 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: 1937 aircraft radios A minor point of curiosity... I've been reading some of the books on Amelia Earhart trying to decide what makes sense. Relative to all the confusion that seemed to exist regarding radio frequencies: Does anyone know that aircraft radio equipment was like in 1937? Indications are that transmitters were Xtal controlled. That sure makes sense. One probably switched from one frequency to another. What about receivers? I suspect they were continuous tuning with several bands. Probably not unlike the domestic "all wave" radios of the time. Would tuning dials have been marked in both frequency and wavelength? I recall dials of home receivers that were marked both ways and, as is the case today, the least significant digit was dropped. The dial reads "610" instead of 6100 kilocycles. All of which would make it pretty easy to get confused between frequency and wavelength markings. *************************************************************** From Ric Earhart's transmitter was a Western Electric 13C with three crystal controlled frequencies, 3105, 6210 and 500 kilocycles. The first two were standard aviation frequencies. The third was the international nautical distress frequency. Her receiver, as far as we know, was a Western Electric 20B with four bands - 200 to 400 Kc.; 550-1500 Kc; 1500-4000 Kc; and 4000-10,000 Kc. To tune it to a particular station you had to select the proper band then crank a little handle until you reached the correct frequency. She may have also had a separate Bendix RDF receiver, or the Bendix unit may have replaced the Western Electric unit prior to the second world flight attempt. There has been great debate on this issue. Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:38:49 EST From: John Clauss Subject: Satellite Imagery Bob, If you were looking for aerial survey or satellite photos of the Phoenix islands (Kiribati) where would you go? John Clauss ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:59:36 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Gotta share this We frequently get requests from kids doing reports on Amelia for school and, of course, we help out all we can. We also get back some rather creative ideas about how to further our investigation. I couldn't resist sharing this one with everybody. "Have you ever done a backround check on Noonan? Why does every one think Amelia was the spy? Maybe Noonan was and he killed her or gave her up to the enemy.... makes you wonder huh????" Yeah. Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:21:44 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Campfire I was reading the "Help Wanted" notice concerning the burned label found in the campfire. I was wondering whether it would be possible to "date" the label or the campfire remains, themselves, through some sort of carbon dating process of the charred remains of the label or ashes from the campfire (perhaps it's possible, but not within the accuracy needed). Also, concerning all the satellite imaging e-mails, have you considered sending onto the island a small group of volunteers to "camp out" there for a period of time of up to a month? If they could land with sufficient provisions, a small group over a greater time may be able to accomplish more than a larger group over less time, and at less cost. It seems to me that all the aerial reconaissance is no substitute for a ground search. Thanks for your time! **************************************************************** From Ric Carbon dating of the charcoal in the fire might give us a rough idea of when the wood that was burned died, but the label itself has the potential for yielding much more information, if we can just pin down the identification. As for leaving a small team on the island; the principle expense involved in an expedition to Niku is not the being there. It's the getting there. Even a small team needs an ocean-going vessel to get there. Dropping them off, then returning to collect them means two round trips. Believe it or not, it's cheaper (and a whole lot safer and more comfortable) to keep the ship there. Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:26:35 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Satellite imagery In a message dated 3/6/98 12:25:45 AM, you wrote: http://eleftheria.stcloudstate/arsc I tried to go there, but got an error message indicating that it did not exist. Can you verify the web address? Thanks Andrew McKenna ************************************************************** From Ric: This is the second report we've had that there is a problem with this address. Haven't tried it myself. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:31:27 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Earhart's Sister Dead Regular forum contributor Chuck Jackson, TIGHAR 2089, reports that Amelia's younger sister, Muriel Earhart Morrissey, died March 5, 1998 at the age of 98. Muriel had not been well for several years and had long since contributed all the memories and letters she had that might be of interest to those who were interested in her famous sister. In 1983 she donated a large collection letters to the Radcliffe College Schlesinger Library. Muriel believed that Amelia had probably gone down at sea. We always sent her a copy of the latest TIGHAR Tracks through the neighbor who looked out for her, but we never bothered her with questions. With Muriel's passing, Amelia seems to slip further into the past. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:31:54 EST From: "MEM" Subject: satellite imagery http://eleftheria.stcloudstate/arsc it needs a ".edu" : http://eleftheria.stcloudstate.edu/arsc ************************************************************** Ric, the proper web address for the satellite imagery is: http://eleftheria.stcloud.msus.edu/arsc I tried this and got in ok.With the other slightly different address, I too ran up against a brick wall. Ann ************************************************************** From aa2309@wayne.edu They just changed their server and major address, and what you have is also incomplete http://www.eleftheria.stcloustate.edu/arsc Keep trying. It is a really worthwhile site, and can answere your "where do I get photos of..." questions. It includes some aircraft, as well as satellite photos. ************************************************************** From Ric Now, if we could just solve the Earhart Mystery as fast as we solved the URL Mystery we'd be in good shape. ************************************************************** From Bob Brown I have sent a request to some of my contacts who specialize in satellite imagery for suggestions as to sources in this area. Because of the remoteness of the area it is more than likely that satellite imagery might be the only thing available currently. I might suggest however, that there might be value in the "oldest" imagery that you can find. If there were aerial reconaiscance flights during the war perhaps they would show evidence that has since be wiped away by storms etc. I will research this and get back with you. Bob ************************************************************* From Ric We have quite a bit (all we could find) of wartime and later aerial photography of the island and it has been very useful. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:46:25 EST From: Kenny Feder Subject: Carbon Dating Regarding using carbon dating to help place the island campfire in time: Carbon dating is a terrific dating technique but it has its limits. The process works because the unstable isotope of carbon, 14C decays at a set rate, expressed in terms of its half-life (for 14C this is 5730 years). After seven or eight half-lives (40,000 years or so) there isn't enough 14C left for accurate dating so material much older than this can't be dated (other than to say, greater than 40,000 years). At the other end, for very recent sites (say a campfire about 60 years old) not enough of the 14C will have decayed (it's too small a fraction of even one half-life of radiocarbon) to get any kind of an accurate measurement. Most radiocarbon dating labs simply will report such a sample as "recent." Not much help there. Ken Feder TIGHAR # 2103 (brand new!) *************************************************************** From Tom King, Earhart Project Archaeologist, TIGHAR 0391CE One more thing about carbon dating the fire or the label -- radiocarbon age determination isn't much good with things as recent as 60 years old; there's too much margin for error. And in our case, a fire that's 60 years old could be Earhart's and a fire that's 55 years old could be the colonists'. Of course, if the fire were 500 years old, that would pretty much put it out of Amelia's league, but the label strongly suggests that we're not dealing with anything that old. We haven't felt like radiocarbon age determination would be a useful way to spend money, or to use the limited amount of charcoal that came out of the feature, which can also be used for things like determining the kind of tree that was burned. This can have important implications itself; it looks like the wood was more likely buka (Pisonia grandis) than coconut, and hence probably was burned prior to 1941 when the buka forest was cleared and the coconuts planted. Tom King ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:08:51 EST From: Chuck Jackson Subject: 1937 radios before xtal controlled receivers , tuning was a pain---the dials only approximately indicated frequency---good only to get close to the desired frequency----then one "fishes" for the incoming signal --------the really wise and prudent radio operator marks important freq on the dial by first tuning to known frequencies, or constructs a calibration chart.(a responsible "installer" does this)---but would ae even bother to use it??????? ************************************************************* From Dr. Gene Dangelo This is my first actual venture into the communications of the forum; having noticed the interesting message about Amelia Earhart's radios, and being a radio amateur myself, I was particularly interested in this topic, and decided to "jump in." The use of the crystal controlled transmitter was probably the most sensible of choices at that time, primarily because it took the "guesswork" out of finding the correct frequency and made dangers of frequency "drift" academic, as long as the rest of the radio was functioning properly and the tubes were at operating temperature. 3105 and 6210 Kilocycles (Khz) are now generally regarded as 3.105 and 6.210 Mhz in the shortwave bands. Of particular interest, however, is the 500 Khz emergency frequency, now on the far upper end of the longwave band. One of the radio clubs to which I belong, the Longwave Club of America has lots of information on this band and its history. Nowadays, this band is still used for directional aircraft beacons (in repeating Morse Code), as well as the U.S. Government's "Ground Wave Emergency Network" (GWEN), and much submarine communication, owing to the sea's exceptional propagation of longwave signals. This band was used for submarine transmission/reception to my knowledge as far back as the Earhart disappearance era. Radio receivers of that time period also could have been of two different reception/signal detection types: the superheterodyne type (as are most AM radios today) and the regenerative type, which used a kind of signal feedback of sorts to bring about signal detection. One of my own vintage operational radios in my "shack" is an RCA RAK-6 regenerative longwave receiver built in December, 1941 for the Navy Department. Its power supply was built in 1939, also for the Navy, and it tunes continuously from 10 Khz to 600 Khz. I have received (from Greensburg, Pennsylvania) on it signals from Bimini, Bahamas, the Omega Beacon in the Pacific at 10 Khz (now defunct, I believe,) and several signals ranging from Canada to South America. The reason I bring this up is that I have toyed with the idea that perhaps Amelia Earhart, if her radio DID in fact function for awhile after her possible reef flat landing, attempted to utilize the emergency frequency at 500 Khz. If so, it may have been possible that some submarine reception (or on-land reception) of her signal may have occurred. It may have been garbled, or not clearly understood. I wonder if some radio log from any nearby submarine traffic may have in its pages some spurious signal reception noted within at a time frame critical to Earhart's disappearance? Another radio club to which I belong, the Antique Wireless Association, is a treasure-trove of material about vintage radio equipment, and in fact they operate a museum of such. They can be contacted via internet at: www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa if anyone is so inclined. One last note: it may be considered to look into any available major storm reports over the last sixty years or so for the Nikumaroro area, in order to consider the physics of the direction(s) in which the Electra 10E wreckage may have been driven (storm wind directions & intensities, wave heights, etc.). I'm not sure what information was available at that time period along those lines, but anything may be a potential help, I'm sure. Thanks for tolerating my ramblings. 'Sorry to be longwinded. Most Sincerely, --Dr. Gene Dangelo **************************************************************** From Frank Lombardo, TIGHAR 1806 (Note from Ric: Frank has been working on our research team for years on the subject of Earhart's radios) There was two basic models of the Western Electric type 13 series transmitter manufactured for Western Electric by Bell Laboratories in 1936/1937. From these two models, many variations or modifications were made to these units by the airline industry for their specific requirements One of two basic models may have been installed on NR16020 by Bell Labs prior to the March flight. These would be the Type 13C or the Type 13CB. The 50 watt, three channel Type 13C was a three channel transmitter that DID NOT HAVE 500 kc capability. It's range was from 2000 to 6500 megacycles. The 50 watt, three channel Type 13CB was a factory modified 13C with many internal component changes to modify a one channel only, low frequency transmit capability below the broadcast band (ie; 500 kc). Along with this, an external loading coil must be added along with a trailing wire antenna in order for the transmitter to be properly switched and tuned to all three frequencies, in this case 3105, 6210, and 500 kc. All photographs of NR16020 of the interior of the cabin and navigator's position that we have as of this date, show that a Type 13C was installed, with only 3105 kc and 6210 kc transmit capability. Both the 13C and 13CB were designed for voice modulation only. Both had to be modified for CW by Bell Labs if the operator requested it. Frank ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:06:03 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Satellite Imagery re satellite photos, --yes i''ve seen some of these photos, even used some in my company magazine.WHY NOT GIVE THEM A SHOT? I DOUBT IF YOU'LL SEE AN AIRCRAFT ON THE OCEAN BOTTOM THO!!111111!!but lotsa luck. Dick **************************************************************** From Ric If we can find imagery that may have sufficient resolution we'll certainly give it a shot, if we can afford it. And you're right Dick. If the airplane is on the ocean bottom we won't find it, with or without satellites. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:08:05 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Earhart's Sister Dead SORRY TO HEAR THAT.. SHE WAS A GOOD PERSON ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:07:01 EST From: Chuck Jackson Subject: Ballard? ric---consider sitting down with ballard (sp?) over a couple of beers (adventurer/explorer to adventurer/explorer). he lead the finding of the titanic, and may have some ideas---or even may take it on as a personal challenge. true, a few lbs. less steel involved and a "few"other challenges.---you'd still be the honcho picking the places to probe.........plenty of glory to go around. ************************************************************** From Ric Remember that Titanic, Lusitania, Bismark, etc. were "lost" only in the sense that they sank. "Finding" them is primarily a matter of deploying appropriate technology for long enough in the area where the ship is known to have gone down. Finding the Earhart aircraft is infinitley more difficult, not only because it is microscopic compared to a ship, but because nobody knows for sure where to begin looking. We're not in the least opposed to consulting outside experts and, in fact, are always looking for help and advice from the best people we can find. Dr. Ballard is aware of our project and he and we seem to agree that his involvement would not be appropriate. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:10:53 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: 1937 radios Thanks, Ric, for the very solid information on Amelia's radio equipment! I'm trying to imagine why she would have asked for a long count on 7500 kc. Did she really want 750 meters which would be 400 kc but was confused by numbers on a dial that didn't mean much to her? If the dial of her reciever, Western Electric or Bendix, had both frequency and wavelength markings, it would be a little easier to understand how she might request the wrong frequency. She may have put some marks on the dial, as I've known people to do with equipment they didn't understand, but chose the wrong numbers to request the long count. Is it known what the dials of those recievers looked like? Does any of that 1937 radio equipment still exist? I wonder if one could find any documentation? Having been in radio, off and on, for most of my life, it's an interesting sidelight to the larger question of what became of Earhart and Noonan. ************************************************************** From Ric Perhaps Frank Lombardo has some insight on this. Whadya think Frank? ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:36:26 EST From: Chuck Jackson Subject: PBY?? HAVE YOU EVER CONSIDERED A PBY FOR YOUR ADVENTURES EXPLORATIONS?????????? THERE MUST BE A FEW AROUND ALONG WITH SOME OLD & HOPEFULLY NOT TOO BOLD PILOTS WHO'D LOVE TO BE PART OF TIGHAR'S GOIN'ONS. ME THINKS GOD AND U. S. MILITARY CREATED IT JUST 4 U. PERFECT FOR HAULIN, CAMPIN, FOTOGRAFIN, ETC, ETC, ETC. REGARDS ************************************************************* From Ric We've considered the use of amphibious aircraft and keep coming up with some real problems. 1. The two types with sufficient range - the PBY and the Grumman Albatross - have piston engines which, of course, use avgas, which is not readily available at the places where you'd need to refuel. 2. Neither a PBY nor an Albatross is big enough to carry the people and equipment we need to get anything done. 3. Any mechanical problem or minor accident that disabled the aircraft while it was at Nikumaroro would create a major emergency. Let me correct an understandable misconception. I am not an adventurer, nor am I an explorer. We have a saying at TIGHAR. Adventure is what happens when things go wrong. We NEVER go looking for adventure. We do our best to avoid it. I don't think anybody does any real exploring any more, except for NASA and people who go to ocean depths never before visited. If I had to put a label on what we do, I'd say that we are historians. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:53:01 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: The Label Fragment The label fragment... There might be a very slim possibility that it could be dated to some degree by analysis of the ink, or of the paper itself. This kind of thing can be done with only microscopic samples. No damage to the little bit of "evidence" that exists. A very long shot depending upon when changes in inks and printing may have occurred. Another very long shot: I have access to the "Federal Gazette" from 1930 with registered trademarks. It's a monthly publication so that's a lot to be searched, starting with 1937 and going back. That bit of text we see may not be part of a registered trademark at all, or it might have been registered only on a state level. A long shot, indeed! If the fragment is from "canned ripe banana," that seems an unusual product. I wonder what the market would have been? Maybe seafaring folks? ************************************************************** From Ric There are document experts who can almost certainly date the materials, ink, lettering style, etc. We'll be doing that. It just takes time to find the right sources and find the funding. We don't yet know a great deal about canned ripe bananas and what they were used for. I can imagine that they might have been useful in baking and as a good source of potassium in a survival food. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:19:48 EST From: Rebecca Little Subject: Mystery Photo There's something I'm curious about, and research at my college library has turned up zilch. I just got the sample issue of Tighar Tracks (30 September 1997) a couple of weeks ago, and I've been wondering about the article, "Is This Earhart's Electra." I thought that the plane in the photo had already been determined to be a Lockheed 1 and not a 10E, so why has the discussion come up again? The engines in the photos of Earhart's Electra look different than the ones in the mystery photo and so do the propellers. I was also wondering, did Lockheed 10E's have different looking engines even within the same class? Wasn't Earhart's plane modified to some extent? I know she had extra fuel tanks put into her fuselage, but what about her engines? Thanks for your time and I'm really enjoying this discussion! From a future TIGHAR member (yes, another check is in the mail), Rebecca Little *************************************************************** From Ric The photo continues to be matter of heated debate. As for the engines on the Earhart Electra: Electras came with four different kinds of engines. The 10A had Pratt & Whitney Wasp Jr.s (R985 SB) of 450 hp. The 10B had Wright R975s of 450 hp. The 10C had Pratt & Whitney Wasps (R1340 SC1) of 450 hp. The 10D was never built. The 10E had Pratt & Whitney Wasps (R1340 S3H1) of 550 hp. A detailed discussion of the wreck photo will be included in the next TIGHAR Tracks. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:32:24 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Muriel Earhart Morrissey MURIEL EARHART (1900 -1998) Would that you might be reunited with Amelia and know, at last, what happened om that morning of July 2, 1937 -- and perhaps in the days thereafter. I fear that those of us who remain may never know. ********************************************** Indeed, with the passing of her sister Muriel, Amelia seems to recede further in the mists of time and the vastness of the Pacific Ocean. And we are haunted by those last words the world would ever hear from her. Loud... Very close to Howland Island. Then silence. The crackling of static... If Amelia and Fred had found Howland Island and had completed those last few thousand miles to Hawii and on to Burbank, They would be a brief note in the history books. Perhaps Amelia is pleased to see that, because she vanished as she did, there are those who still search for some shred of hard evidence of what became of her! There must be scarely anyone left who knew Amelia. Muriel's children were small. They probably don't really remember Aunt Amelia who set out to fly around the world and never returned! *************************************************************** From Fred Madio I have an obituary clipping from the Boston Globe (a newspaper) that I will send to you by US Mail. It contains some useful info for possible follow up research:references to daughters, grandchilderen, great grandchildren, and something about "four cartons and letters concerning her sister to Radcliffe College's Schlesinger Library." The part about pictures caught my eye for some reason. Willing to follow up from this end if you think it might prove productive. Regards, Fred Madio ************************************************************** From Ric We're very familiar with the letters and I know Muriel's daughter Amy. As a research source, Muriel was wrung dry many years ago. Thanks anyway. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:48:06 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: 1937 radio Re: Analog tuned receivers. Yes, I've wondered if the need to hunt for a signal may have had something to do with the communication problems Amelia had. Being pretty naive about radio in general, she may have placed too much confidence in the dial marking. When she wasn't hearing anything, she may not have hunted around the spot looking for a signal. I've also wondered why, when she changed frequency and lost contact, she didn't go back to where she last had contact. Such as when she was in contact with Lae, New Guinea (according to some sources) until she changed frequency. Lae did not hear her again. Why did she not go back to the other frequency? Lae was hearing her well, but maybe she was not hearing Lae all that well. Re: 500 kilocycles. I wonder if we know whether it's true that Amelia left the trailing-wire antenna back in the states? If so, she wouldn't have got much of a signal out on 500 kilocycles, possibly to have been heard by submarines, or whatever. Of course, after landing, presumably in water on a reef or some such location, it wouldn't have mattered much anyway. An antenna in the water might be alright, but not with the aircraft also in the water -- "grounded" antenna! **************************************************************** From Ric We've found no evidence that Earhart heard anything from anybody during the Lae Howland leg with the exception of the letter As sent by the Itasca on 7500 kc. Her transmitter was apparently working fine. Lae heard her on 6210, as did Nauru, and Itasca heard her loud and clear on 3105 but lost her when she switched to 6210. Lae radio operator Harry Balfour claimed, years later, that he was in two way communication with her for several hours after her departure, but the one contemporaneous written account by Guinea Airways Mgr Eric Chater makes it quite clear that that was not the case. As for the trailing wire, there is a considerable body of folklore that has the trailing wire removed in Miami prior to the June 1st departure, but we see no external evidence of the antenna from the time the airplane comes out of repairs at Burbank on May 19. 1937. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:38:11 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Label Fragment Concerning the label fragment, has any thought been given to getting a forensic expert (e.g., someone who conducts scientific/chemical analysis of crime sites and evidence) involved for leads? --Chris Kennedy **************************************************************** From Ric Yes. Forensic document experts are the guys I referred to in my earlier post. **************************************************************** From Amanda Dunham You're right about canned ripe bananas being a baking ingredient. Another possibility: baby food. Earhart was known to have stomach trouble, recurring in Lae, and doctors used to recommend baby food as a remedy. Especially bananas & applesauce (which might not actually be labelled "baby food"). 20/20 hindsight - if she'd skipped the highly acidic tomato juice during times of stress, maybe she'd have felt better. Amanda Dunham who never thought a history of food allergies would be useful... PS: Payday's tomorrow and my membership check will be in the mail shortly thereafter! *************************************************************** From Ric Amanda, you sound like you know what you're talking about (not that the rest of us don't). I'm curious to know where your knowledge of 1930s food use comes from. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:41:53 EST From: Lee Subject: Earhart's Sister Dead Could anyone help us find other relative's of Amelias? I am Amelia's 3rd Cousin, and are trying to locate other close relatives. Or would anyone have Geneology info? Did Muriel Earhart Morrissey have children? Would really appreciate any help. Thanks Lee **************************************************************** From Ric Muriel had two children. A girl, Amy, and a boy (can't recall the name). If anyone can help Lee, please reply directly to him by private email. This is off topic for the the forum. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:47:55 EST From: Frank Lombardo Subject: 1937 radio There are plenty of photographs to go around of the Western Electric Type 27A remote control head which was used in conjunction with the Western Electric Type 20B receiver. In fact, there is a photograph in circulation that clearly shows the 27A control head mounted on the right-hand sub-panel in the cockpit of NR16020. To answer the question that the dial may have been marked to "find" a frequency when tuning...... The dial face is covered with a dome shaped glass, which would make marking a specific point for reference not work well. Your eye would have to be always in the precise position it was the last time you marked the dail. Adding to this that the dial face is quite small (approx. 3") and is overcrowded with many bands and numbers. Also the needle width has to be taken in to consideration. The 27A control head tuning knob turned a geared shaft that turned a tachshaft that was connected to the receiver back in the cabin. Not unlike a speedometer cable in an automobile. This splined shaft arrangement added some degree of backlash or slop when tuning. Yes....indeed there would be a degree of difficulty in trying to tune the receiver to a specific frequency, compounding, if you don't hear any traffic while tuning, it is most difficult to find the frequency you are looking for. I hope this somehow answered your question.. LTM #1806 ************************************************************** Hi again, The only low frequency (below the broadcast band) that the Coast Guard vessel Itasca transmitted on to Amelia Earhart was 500 kc. LTM #1806 ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:52:17 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Line of Position I hope I'm not overloading the system! As a new kid on the block, I've got all sorts of questions and thoughts rattling around in my head. Coming on the scene with no knowledge of navigation, I struggled with that "line of position" thing quite a while. I think I finally understand Noonan's sunrise LOP and the advancement thereof. First, he is able to determine a line that is actually the slightly bias line between daylight and dark as of July 2, 1937. The sun is about as far north as it will be at that time of year. For relatively short distances, a straight line is a good approximation. Then he advances that line on the basis of estimated ground speed, but without knowledge of how wind may be influencing their course. Finally they believe themselves on a LOP that passes through Howland Island. I've plotted the LOP on my map and studied the situation they were in. I sure think that if I had been in that situation, not sighting Howland or the smoke from the Itasca and running out of fuel, I would head south. There's clearly a lot less water to cross and more islands to be found in that direction. I don't think Amelia would have stuck with her idea of heading back toward the Gilberts, as some sources have quoted. South looks a lot better on the map. So, I can easily believe that they could have ended up at Gardner Island (Nikumaroro). Best regards, Vern ************************************************************* From Ric That's a pretty good summary of the reasoning the Navy followed in 1937 and the logic that first got us interested in looking at Nikumaroro in 1988. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:48:58 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Historians all >If I had to put a label on what we do, I'd say that we are historians. ....Hear, hear..! Received my membership papers today. Thanks! I feel connected now. And in all seriousness, I think history is the relevent term here. It is also the moral term. This is about the loss of two people's lives. I for one, appreciate the reverence and respect shown by TIGHAR's attitude. This is one reason I want to be a part and make whatever contribution I can... I'm an avid genealogist as well, and a sincere believer that, `to those who seek, all questions are answered.., eventually'. I feel privileged to be part of such a group. ~ Sandy J. Campbell #2110 .....p.s. please note in your files, I'm a ms, not a mr. Thanks! ************************************************************** From Ric, 'Preciate that, and sorry 'bout the gender mistake. Pat (a Ms. herself) probably figured that Sandy Campbell was Alexander Campbell (a guid Scots name). Assumption is the mother of all screw ups. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:51:54 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: 1937 radio Dr. Dangelo: Your discussion of the state of radio technology in 1937 was very interesting. Although it may not specifically relate to the Amelia Earhart search, I and perhaps others in the forum, would be interested to know more about the RCA RAK-6 regenerative longwave receiver. I would have expected anything build, even before 1941, to be a superhet. Perhaps if you wanted a small, relatively simple receiver... I wonder what its intended application was? What sort of construction is it and what does it look like? What tube, or tubes, are used? You've certainly recieved signals from some pretty distant places. What do you use for an antenna? I suppose these are rather high powered transmitters you've heard. CW, I presume, although I guess signals above 10 kilocycles could be voice modulated. Now that you've broken the ice, we'll hope to hear more from you! Vern Klein ************************************************************* From Ric But please send your reply directly to Vern. We need to keep the forum on topic. Thanks. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:02:10 EST From: Stu Subject: Re: gotta share this Yes, that is very interesting, but what about her independent nature. Isn't it possible that what happened to her is placed among the ironies with celebrities today? She flew because she had a passion for aviation, but when she was trying to reach Howland she freaked out, couldn't work the radio, crashed. She knew she would probably be rescued, but what if she didn't want to be? She was tired of being in the public eye. The passion was robbed by GP and her being on a pedastal. Her whole life she sacrificed what she felt in her heart and put it aside to pursue a career, but the crash dramatically changed her. Her mystery lies in our individual imagination. *************************************************************** From Ric The question of why the mystery of Earhart's disappearance has so captivated the public imagination is a fascinating subject, but is not within the scope of this forum. However, Amelia's conduct during the final hours of the flight is of some interest as we try to figure out what happened after radio contact was lost. The evidence that we have from the Itasca's radio logs does not bear out the characterization that she "freaked out." Although there were certainly radio problems, some of which appear to be the result of her less-than-adequate understanding of the equipment, Amelia seems to have behaved very professionally during the crisis and adhered closely to her set transmission schedule right up to the time she changed frequencies and Itasca stopped hearing her. If anyone freaked out it was the Coast Guard who sent messages to her in morse code despite her requests that all communication be by voice; who based their radio schedule on local time despite Earhart's specification that she would use Greenwhich time; who tried to contact her on 3105 Kc at a time when she was supposed to be contacting them, thereby blocking any transmission she may have made; who knew she had enough fuel to last until noon but abandoned their station at Howland Isand at 10:40 based upon their conviction that she was already down at sea, etc., etc. The available evidence strongly suggests that Earhart and Noonan did everything they could to find Howland Island and, failing that, took the most rational course possible to assure that they would reach land, and, having succeeded in that, made every attempt to encourage rescue. There is no evidence that AE was "tired of being in the public eye." Quite the contrary. Nor is there any evidence that her relationship with GP was anything other than a happy, if somewhat unusual for the 1930s, business partnership marriage. Ric ================================================================ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:30:26 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: 1937 radios I spent some time as just a dumb back-ender on an aircraft with really old radios. I also used some vintage WWII radios on the ground when we were at the end of the food chain. (Nothing like the sound of HF static in the morning) I am not a radio expert. However I can give an end-users perspective. I got a few opportunities to listen to RO instructors "explain" to new radio guys how to use the old radios. First crystal controlled transmitters. They were good for the era but no two were exactly alike. They got you pretty close. Good enough if you were sitting in a rocker and had a big set that allowed you to fine-tune the station with the second dial. Works ok in an aircraft if you're close to the receiver. But at extreme range the slight differences causes the station to drift in and out. Weather, slight differences in each crystal, atmospherics, and temperature all contribute to signal drift. One instructor explained that the receiver should just sit on the primary freq. and let the message drift in and out. He figured you'd catch more of the message that way then being behind by chasing the signal drift. The real problem is the receiver. The receivers were not crystal set frequencies. They were manually tuned. Some of the guys who use to "sit rack" for 8 hours a day chasing faint signals got pretty good at it. They could follow the drift. But for most military operators (like an average ship board operator) chasing the signal as it drifts up and down results in the operator loosing a weak signal. I'm guessing that the radio operator on the Ithaca was doing his best and chasing EA's signal as it drifted. Not saying he was right or wrong. Just commenting on the dangers of chasing a freq. Bouncing around they skies they were probably doing the same with their set. As for EA's receiver. I've seen HF operators get mad because someone put a coffee mug down hard next to their set. Such rude language. That was before computers let you automatically lock on to a signal. A single dial receiver must have been a bear to fine tune aloft. When we flew and were talking to a faint station I'd call up the RO every 20 or 30 minutes and ask him to tweak the receivers. When we had a faint signal from a mid-air emergency he was working the signal constantly trying to hold on to it. Bottom line. Until the advent of transistors and computers long range radio communications was more of an art then a science. The hash marks we'd put on a freq. from yesterday were a starting point, not a sure thing. I only listened to airborne radios for 4 years and never got it totally right. I think AE and the Itasca operator did pretty good considering the circumstances. Warren *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Warren. Interesting perspective. As a pilot brought up on nice clean VHF, I have been appalled when sailing and flying the Pacific to learn what an iffy, sometime thing HF radio still is. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:34:44 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: 1937 radios I have never seen a 1937 aircraft radio, but I have some information that might be helpful. Being a pilot, I decided to buy an old airplane. Big mistake...I flew it with the original 1950's aircraft radio. I'm sure there are many others who are familiar with this type of radio, but I will tell you how it worked anyway. I think Amelia's radio operated much the same. It was a tube type (no transisters then) crystal controlled transmitter, but had a variable tuner for receiving. I had several crystals in it for the local area and could only transmit on those frequencies. I could, however, receive on all freqs. When I wanted to talk to the tower, I would first turn the transmitter dial to the desired frequency. The transmitter was always on frequency because it was crystal controlled. Then I had to adjust the receiver to the same freq. This was done by turning the control knob on the radio to "CAL" for calibrate. When I did that, it generated a side tone in the radio on that frequency. All I had to do was listen for the tone in the earphones as I rotated the receiver knob. It was easy to do, even in flight. You didn't even had to look at the receiver dial. Just listen for the tone. One thing I like to do with it was rotate the receiver knob fast in both directions to "scan" for other traffic. Perhaps Amelia's radio was similar to this one. If so, she could have "scanned" all frequencies also. I had trouble with it once, where the tone was not quite on frequency and I had to turn the receiver knob a little more to receive the tower clearly. When I was on the ground 1 4 mile from the tower, it was no problem. But in flight, I could transmit, but not receive until I fiddled with the knob a little. Didn't she ask for a long count once? I wonder if Amelia had the same type system? If so, she could have had the same problem. Something else...I couldn't listen to the radio without the engine running because the power drain was so great. The generator would not kick in until the engine was at about 1700 RPM. I just thought some in this Forum might like to know how the older radios worked. Don Jordan (#2109) ************************************************************** From Vern Klein Frank: Yes, my questions are well answered. Thank you! A 3-inch dial with several bands and a lot of numbers could have been pretty confusing to Amelia. A tuning head remote from the receiver and a speedometer cable! I'm surprised anyone ever found a signal other than something almost continuously on the air. I think it must have been a bit before my time but somehow I'm aware that a similar sort of thing was once done with automobile radio recievers. I guess this is a bit off topic. I'll quit flogging this one! Vern ================================================================ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:43:25 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Label Fragment Amanda, Re: Canned ripe banana as a baking ingredient. I presume that a number of producers of canned products offer canned bananas to bakeries, etc. They're just not found on shelf of the local supermarket. If this is the case, maybe we have to check everybody in the fruit canning business in the hope of learning who may have been canning bananas in the 30s. A slim chance of it leading to anything but then all we have are slim chances! Vern ************************************************************* From Ric According to Bob Moore, chairman of the International Banana Association (yes, Virginia, there is an IBA), canned bananas were produced in the 1930s for the American, and probably other, markets principally by Honduran banana growers. With the advent of better shipping which permitted the transport of fresh bananas, canning fell out of practice. Amanda, do you know if banana canning is still done for the baking industry? ================================================================ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:01:24 EST From: Barbara Wiley Subject: Re: Earhart's Sister Dead Too bad Muriel has died. No, interest in Amelia not slipping, as evidenced by your success in generating such interest with TIGHAR, of course, you've had the media coverage which is the key to success. To chronical the plethora of devotion for these 61 years for Amelia and Noonan by so many, at all levels of involvement is the next research task. ************************************************************** From Ric Actually, it's t'other way 'round. Success is the key to media coverage. These days, everyone is clamoring for the attention of the cameras and, with a zillion cable channels to fill, the cameras are clamoring for stories to tell. But to attract the attention of the high-credibility media (network television, the big cable channels, major newspapers, LIFE magazine, etc.), you must pass the very close scrutiny of very tough editors. TIGHAR has received high credibility media coverage because our researcher/members have achieved high credibility results. Someday, after the truth about the Earhart disappearance has been conclusively established, it would be fun, and perhaps instructive, to chronicle how a missing aircraft turned into a national hobby. But that's not the next research task. First we have to find Amelia. Ric ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:41:40 EST From: Amanda Dunham Subject: Come Mr. Tally Man Tally Me Banana Nowadays, if Sara Lee, Pepperidge Farm, or Jello want to make banana bread, cream pie, or pudding, they either buy fresh or use dried banana chips and rehydrate them. Your corner bakery and people at home have no need for canned anymore, they can buy fresh. (My 1928 cookbook expects the home baker to try for fresh, and use canned as a substitute.) Canned banana qualifies as a baking ingredient, but baking isn't considered its first use. Like applesauce, it's food by itself, that can be an ingredient in something else. Even if canned banana had been available wholesale to bakeries, the cans would have been much to big for Earhart's purposes. Researching this from a baking perspective is a dead end. Please keep in mind that the term "canning" isn't just for food preserved in a tin can; food preserved in glass jars is also consider "canned." The term refers to the process, not necessarily the container. Also keep in mind that tin cans require a can opener, glass jars just require strong wrists. Canned banana *is* found on the shelf of the local supermarket, y'all are just in the wrong aisle. Stop thinking Del Monte and start thinking Gerber. Baby food is usually packaged at just a few ounces. Come to think of it, Earhart flew the autogiro for Beech Nut. Maybe GP cut a deal of some sort. If the flight had been successful: "Beech Nut Brand Foods Were the World Flight's Rations" Daylight come an me wan go home Amanda **************************************************************** From Ric Good information! Thanks Amanda. We're working on an article about the can label for the next TIGHAR Tracks. Right now I'm off to the store to check out the baby food section. Ric ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:45:03 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Historians I'm 75 years old and green with envy. I can say this! When I opened the sample issue and saw the pictures of "The Team," I thought... It looks to me like a bunch of, largely old codgers, having a hell of a lota fun spending other peoples money! And there's nothing wrong with that. You're doing a hell of a good job of it! ************************************************************* From Ric Well, we weren't old codgers when we started this. Last time out we were laughing about how many of us now need reading glasses. Of course, I'm still just a kid. I turned fifty last December. Your reference to "other people's money" provides me with an opportunity to clear up some common misconceptions about how TIGHAR's work is funded. Like any business, we deliver a product for a price. Our product is sound historical research. To support our work, those who value that product part with their hard-earned dollars which then become TIGHAR's hard-earned dollars. We never use other people's money. We only use TIGHAR's money. When U.S. citizens give money to TIGHAR they get the added benefit of being able to use it as a tax-deductible charitable contribution, just like the money they give to United Way or the Smithsonian Institution. Like those organizations, TIGHAR is recognized as a Public Charity, which means simply that our base of support is very broad and we do not get a significant portion of our funding from any single source. TIGHAR is a tax exempt organization under Section 501 (c) (3) of the IRS code. That means that the federal government has recognized that what we do is in the public interest and does not make us pay tax on the money that comes in to support our work. We, of course, do pay all the usual taxes on payroll. Also, if we bring in money that is not directly related to our "exempt purpose" (for example, if we opened The TIGHAR Saloon) we would have to pay taxes on that "unrelated business income." Like all "nonprofit" organizations, TIGHAR can legally make all the profit it is able to make. What it can not do is distribute those profits. There can be no shareholders or investors, no dividends and no profit-sharing. It all gets plowed back into the organization and every year, just like any other business, we have to file a tax return with the IRS. The difference is, our tax return is public information. End of sermon. The ushers will now take up the collection. Ric ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:00:19 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Coaxial Cable In addition to the matter of 10-strand vs 12-strand center conductor, I'm sure you'll also the looking at the compounding of the jacket and insulation layers. I've never seen rubber used in the dielectric (between braid and center conductor) of coaxial cable. I suppose there would not have been a better choice in the 30s. That rubber-like material may be compounded to have the lowest possible losses at radio frequencies, and may have varied from one manufacturer to another. I assume there are no markings visible on the jacket. So, how would a length of coaxial cable happen to be on Nikumaroro? It seems most likely that it was once installed in an aircraft -- with both ends secured with screw-type connectors. The connectors are still there and in good condition. It seems unlikely that it simply washed ashore when an aircraft broke up in the ocean. For the cable to have got free and washed ashore, it seems there would be more aircraft debris than is in evidence. Can the cable be related to Earhart and Noonan? Was the Electra on the reef and being cannibalized for whatever was useful? Did someone unscrew the connectors and remove the cable? For what purpose? If one wanted something like a "rope," there must have been a lot of better choices. In their situation, they would cartainly have wished for some means to communicate -- to signal their location. They would try to use the radio transmitter. If the aircraft is in a lot of water, (WONT HOLD WITH US MUCH LONGER...ABOVE WATER... SHUT OFF) this may not have been possible. They shut off the radio equipment to save it. I assume there were batteries on the Electra. Maybe they dragged stuff to shore and hoped to dry it out enough to get it operational. They would have needed the cable with its connectors to hook it up to whatever they hoped to use for an antenna. If this sort thing did take place, where is the rest of the radio gear? Might it have been found and carried away as something believed to be of value, whereas the length of cable was not regarded as being of much value? If site of the bones, campfire, and other artifacts removed about 1940 is the place where Earhart and Noonan perished, it seems surprising that so very few metallic objects are to be found there now. This may be telling us that a lot of stuff has been spirited away in one way or another. Maybe even radio gear. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:07:21 EST From: Rebecca Little Subject: Label Fragment Amanda, That's interesting about the possibility of the banana and tomato juice being used to help remedy stomach trouble. I hadn't thought of that--I thought they had those foods in their rations because they had a high nutritional content and possibly because they kept well. Funny--you never know how that info you pick up here and there will come in handy. That's one of the things that keeps life interesting, right? Rebecca Little, TIGHAR #Who Knows *************************************************************** From Marty Joy For what it's worth, There are people that collect labels, not only bananas, but everything under the sun. There are those that actually collect fresh banana labels. I have tried, in my limited way , to research the world of collectors as it pertains to labels of the 1930's with limited success. I know,however, that there are those who collect produce labels, perhaps someone with more computer skills than I, can contact them. Keep up the good work SEMPER FI Marty Joy TIGHAR ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:10:28 EST From: Rebecca Little Subject: Historians All I want to add something to what Sandy wrote (If it's OK--I know we're not supposed to talk about AE's place in history). I agree wholeheartedly with her statement that we are historians. Thing is, you would not believe the number of people that I've told about this project who have made a face and said something to the effect of "Yuck, how morbid." But it isn't morbid--it's all a part of history. It's what Paul Harvey calls "the rest of the story." I like what you all are doing and am glad to be a part of it, though sort of indirectly. Thanks for your time... Rebecca Little ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:15:57 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Lady Be Good I know that the primary focus of TIGHAR is now on AE. However in line with the overall charter of TIGHAR I would like to suggest that you add a link to the "Lady Be Good" story. There are several similarities in these events that may prove insightful. They both became lost because of mistakes in flight planning. Both had errors in radio & DF usage. The LBG story also provides some other insights. Planes & pilots fly a lot further then skeptic think they should. But as one flight instructor commented "Airplanes fly because of Bernoulli not Marconi." They both possibly landed beyond where the initial search efforts would have placed them. The LBG story also is an excellent example of how people survive quite a while after a crash despite the odds. By every reckoning the "Lady Be Good" and her crew should never have been found. However by rare chance and determined effort, the fate of the crew was finally uncovered. It serves as an example of how a determined research effort can pay off. Just a suggestion. Warren *************************************************************** From Ric Some interesting parallels. Unfortunately the server will not pass along direct links, but for those who would like to check out the site, the URL is http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/wwii/lbg.htm ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:32:20 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Fuel Range Just a minor comment on the range that AE could have flown after the last transmission. At 02:45 Itasca's log time AE had 724 of 1,100-lbs. left. That was 14 hours and 15 min. into the flight. Last transmission received was about 6 hours later. 0843 Itasca's time. About 20 hours into the flight. Reviewing the TIGHAR posting I noted something I missed the first time through. Kelly Johnson did the fuel management tables that show that the aircraft should have had just over 24 hours of endurance. The aircraft therefor had around 4 hours flying time left when radio contact was lost. Their airspeed would have been some where between 191 and 212 mph. So they had about 800 miles of range left. It was mid morning so there was no rush to ditch into the sea. Now how accurate were the fuel tables? Well if you've been around flying for a while you'd have heard about Kelly Johnson. The man was a legend. He's probably best known for building the U-2 and SR-71. I don't think you'll find any aeronautical engineer in the world that would say Kelly made a math error with regards to an aircraft's performance. If Kelly said an aircraft had 4 hours fuel left you can take that to the bank. Warren *************************************************************** From Ric I agree that Johnson's figures were probably good. He flew with AE in her airplane prior to the first attempt specifically to work out numbers for that particular machine. However, as most TIGHAR members could tell you Warren, the Electra's economical cruise speed was 150 mph (130 kts). ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:04:58 EST From: Barbara Wiley Subject: Preponderance of evidence Ric what about the "overwhelming preponderance" of evidence, albeit circumstantial, after all, this would be deemed a "civil case". Barbara *************************************************************** From Ric I'm not sure I follow you, Barb. What evidence are you referring to? Until we come up with an eyewitness to the end of the flight, or a videotape of the landing, any evidence in the Earhart case is going to be circumstantial. The question is the credibility of the evidence. We're not trying the Earhart case in court, civil or criminal. The truth does not depend upon the opinion of a jury, even if you call the general public the ultimate jury. Juries are simply a way of reaching a consensus when a decision of some kind is necessary. We hope that most of the time they also arrive at the truth. For a long time virtually everyone thought that the sun revolved round the Earth. Today, supposedly one in four Americans does not believe that humans descended from primates. Each of us has to act as his or her own jury in assesssing the truth, whether about Earhart's fate or any other issue. At TIGHAR we use the scientific method because it seems to us to be the most reliable way of arriving at the truth. I really can't argue with others who reach different conclusions by other methods. I can only say that I am aware of no credible evidence that suggests that the aircraft crashed into the sea or was abducted by anybody. Ric ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:06:28 EST From: Ann Subject: Label Fragment ...ofcourse bananas of the consistancy of applesauce.For some reason I kept visualising canned bananas in the form of slices such as in fruit cocktail....duh.Thanks to forum member Amanda I now have it clear that canned bananas would be similar to baby food fruits.Thinking back to the early 1950s while living in Japan,as a child,canned bananas were a real treat.I believe my Dad got them in his flight lunch rations(USAF) and then passed them on to the kiddies.Is it assumed that AE brought these from the states or could she have acquired them somewhere enroute?Is it certain that the label is one of USA origins? Just a passing thought. Ann (and I too passed the half century mark in Dec.) ************************************************************* From Ric The canned bananas that were aboard the airplane in March almost certainly came from the States. AE hadn't been anywhwere else. Were the same canned bananas aboard the airplane in July? If they were part of a stash of emergency rations (which seems to have been the case), why not? I had hoped that the use of the word "produce" (as appears on the label fragment) to describe fruit and vegetables was a uniquely American usage but my Aussie sources tell me that it's common there too. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:28:59 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Satellite imagery Clyde: Thanks for the SPOT info. We continue to look into the mass of information on this subject. Our Russian contacts told us they are checking as well. Fortunately, we have access to many "experts" in this area. Unfortunately, this means differences exist over what may or may be useful (surprise, surprise). In any case, we continue to plod along. Of course, we continue to invite expert counsel from the forum to assist us........ ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:29:06 EST From: Frank Lombardo Subject: 1937 radios The loop we see in the photos of Amelia Earhart's Lockheed Electra NR16020 may be a Bendix direction finding Loop. The loop came in seven different models numbered 1 to 7. The version we see on top of the aircraft (a MN-5) is manually operated with a vernier type knob located directly below the loop body in the cockpit. The knob is within easy reach of the crew and has a dial with a compass rose to indicate to the operator the relative bearing of the received "null" of the transmitted signal it's receiver is tuned to at that time. In 1937, all aircraft type radio direction finder loop's homing capabilities operated between the frequencies of 120 to 1600 kc. At that time there were no loops available for use commercially or for the military on any frequencies higher than 1600 kc. There were some high frequency experimental types, but none came into play with the exception of the "bread board" model that was set up on Howland island for the express purpose of assisting Amelia Earhart in finding the Itasca and Howland. It is reported to have operated on frequencies in the medium bands from 2,000 to 10,000 mc. which we know now was not too successful. LTM #1806 ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:33:01 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Preponderance of evidence Up to this point, the discovery of the Gallagher telegrams, the "sister" sextant with Box number, aluminum skin, dado, cats paw, bottle cap, a/c wire, rivet etc. in my mind pushes the case beyong the civil 51/49 preponderance balance. I continue to struggle with why those 3 Colorado planes did not see anything. Oh well, more preposterous things have happened. ************************************************************* From Ric Talk to anyone who does search and rescue from the air. Failing to see a downed airplane on the ground is the rule, not the exception. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:46:09 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Fuel range We figure the aircraft could have had up to 8 hrs of fuel left, enough for a nice Phoenix tour. ************************************************************** From Warren Ouch! I thought I was on solid ground with the airspeeds. I was feeling pretty good about having dug up a 1939 edition of Janes Aircraft. A warning to other researchers. Pay your money and subscribe to TIGHAR. The 1939 version of Janes gives you the impression that the figures for the "upgraded" version of the Electra (like that flown by AE) was the same as the Model 12. The Aircraft YearBook for 1939 published by the Aeronautical Chamber of Commerce of America also gives some figures. The economical cruse altitude for the Electra is rated at 14,000 ft and the speeds I think were also slightly off (above 150 mph). I was going to forward part of the 1939 Aircraft YearBook that described Western Electric's new aircraft transmitter (22 lbs. 15 watts, freqs between 2800 and 6044 kilocycles) but this is probably another case of mistaken identity. As a "new guy" I didn't find anything online that gave the full technical specs of the aircraft and equipment. The local area here (Eglin AFB, Hurlburt Field, Pensacola NAS) is a pretty good location for tracking down old pilots and books. Old pilots are amazingly good at remembering the exact technical specifications of the equipment they used, even if they do forget how many times they told you that war story. I must also regrettably report that AE fate has a limited following among old combat veterans. I won't dwell on the whys. However when I've tried to flush out what happened in some more recent incidents I've found that asking technical questions is a better approach. They may not choose to talk about the larger picture about events but pilots generally will eagerly help you research technical questions. So that I don't ask the wrong questions or research the wrong piece of equipment could TIGHAR Tracks add a one-page list of the technical specifications in some future addition? I know that you must be tired of suffering fools and eager amateurs but we all have to start somewhere. Warren *************************************************************** From Ric All is forgiven. A page of specs on NR16020 on our website would be a good idea. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:56:35 EST From: Daniel Onofrey Subject: Metal detectors How feasible would it be to search the island and the reef (or even surrounding waters) with some heavy-duty metal detectors? Such a scheme would doubtless reveal any and all latent metal fragments, airplane or otherwise in origin. Daniel C. Onofrey. *************************************************************** From Ric We use hand-held metal detectors all the time. We're now investigating the possible use of a "heavy-duty" unit that could cover a much larger area, but remember, the island has lots and lots of metal debris from its period of habitation. The problem is not finding metal. It's finding the metal you're looking for. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:05:57 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Historians And sound research it is. Hats off to the depth and detail of information you provide in TIGHAR tracks. And if TIGHAR was really interested in beach parties, they would have claimed the Electra had more fuel than anyone realized, and actually lies hidden in underbrush on a remote part of Maui. ************************************************************** From Ric Hmmmm. Maui. Interesting hypothesis...... ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:19:59 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Fuel Range I too, unfortunately, find marginal interest in my circles regarding the fate of AE and FN. However, all you have to do is tell one satellite expert that another satellite expert disagrees with them. Or tell one aircraft expert that the other aircraft expert claims more accurate fuel estimates. Works quite well. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:29:04 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Historians all Lest anyone misinterpret my remarks regarding spending other peoples money, etc. Be assured that I have naught but respect for the professionalism and strict adherence to the scientific method demonstrated by the TIGHAR organization. A professionalism that certainly extends to the conduct of this forum. ... But make no mistake about it folks, they are having a hell of a lota fun! We get to participate in the fun, if only vicariously, in the forum and in the TIGHAR Tracks journal... a thing to be proud of in its own right. I'm glad to have provided an opportunity for Ric to clear up any misunderstandings about TIGHAR financing that may have existed! Vern *************************************************************** From Ric Vern is absolutely right. When this stops being fun we'll stop doing it. It's not IMPORTANT to solve the Earhart mystery. We do feel, however, the the WAY we solve the Earhart mystery can serve as an example of how to seek out the truth. Maybe that's just putting a noble purpose on what is essentially an ego-motivated self indulgence, but I hope not. Anyway, we're hooked on getting to the bottom of this and we need all the help we can get. Enjoy. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:40:27 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Preponderance of evidence Guess I've been talking with too many fly boys here at Langley AFB. None of them would have missed seeing the Electra. Then again, each one I talk to tells me they are the best of the best............ ************************************************************** From Ric This is admittedly off topic, but it has always interested me that in the world of commercial aviation self-deprecation is the accepted, and expected, social standard among pilots, while in the military world braggadocio seems to be condoned and even encouraged. Each, of course, is an act. Everybody pilot secretly thinks he (or she) is the best there is, and everybody is secretly scared that he (or she) is a phoney. Wandering off again into philosophy and social commentary. Sorry. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:51:56 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Coax cables Revisiting the question of how a length of coaxial cable, with screw-on type connectors on each end would have ended up on Gardner Island. The scenario I proposed probably has many flaws. But can anyone imagine how, if the cable was originally installed in an aircraft and secured at both ends, it could have got loose on the island? How but by virtue of someone having unscrewed the connectors. Presumably the objective would have been to remove the cable... for whatever purpose. I suspect the weakest part of my scenario may be the batteries. Were there batteries on the Electra, or did radio equipment operate directly from generators driven by the engines? If there were batteries, where were they located? Could two people have removed them with the aircraft in water on the reef? The whole scenario is probably unlikely because the batteries would not have operated a radio transmitter long enough to justify the effort. Maybe Earhart and Noonan would not have realized that. Maybe it was the ONLY thing they could think of. You grasp at a straw when that's all there is. **************************************************************** From Ric The cables were found in the rubble of what was once the island carpenter shop. Clearly, they were either purchased and never used as intended (for what pupose is hard to imagine), or they were employed in their original use as aircraft radio cables and were disconnected by hand and brought to the village from somewhere else. Assuming the latter scenario, they either came from somewhere else on Nikumaroro, or from some other island. Earhart's radios operated off batteries (main and aux) that were charged off an engine-driven generator. Dismountng the various components of the radios (transmitter, receiver, dynamotor, batteries, antennas, and assorted cables) for re-assembly on land seems rather pointless with no means of recharging the batteries once the system was removed from the airplane. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:55:23 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Noonan's Navigation new subscriber....first time participator. in all the reading i've done on earhart (admittedly not exhaustive), i can't recall reading any discussion about the effect (if any) on the electra's navigational instruments caused byany possible anomalies created by magnetic changes occasioned by crossing the equitorial line. one of the versions i read contains a quote form "reports" that some residents on the island of tabiteuea (gilbert chain) "heard" her plane passing near the island. if true, it would seem noonan had her dead-on for landfall at howland & whatever went wrong occurred within the last 600 miles (or so) of the flight, which included her crossing the "line". since noonanhad completed 18 successful pacific crossings with pan-am by 1936 (he was chief navigator on the very first flight in 1935 & literally "wrote-the-book" on charting the pacific airways for pan-am) & had already navigated the electra 3 4's of the way around the globe; it just doesn't seem reasonablehe would 'screw-up" so close to the objective. hung-over or stone-cold sober, it seems highly unlikely he would have 'short-cut" any of the navigational rules procedures he developed over all those years & had consistently followed throughout his career, especially when he was fully aware their very lives depended upon the accuracy of his calculations. the phoenix chain was the most logical alternative landfall, once he was convinced they'd "missed" howland since it was closer than doubling back to the gilberts & much simpler navagationally as all they had to do was head into the morning sun on the LOP he had already charted. thanks for bearing with me don n. ********************************************************* From Ric Couldn't have said it better myself. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:02:24 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Label Fragment Suppose this label is from a Honduran product produced for the American market. The label may have been printed in Honduras and applied to the can for shipment to the states. That would make a study of the ink and printin process of very definite interest. There might really be something unique about it. We need to find someone with the expertise and necessary instrumentation who is also very much interested in the Earhart mystery. Someone interested enough to donate some time and effort to the cause. If something of this nature should become critical, I might just possibly be able to find some help and at no cost. I THINK I could get some chromatograph work done on a small sample. Someone else would have to do the evaluation to say what the chemical composition had to tell us. Vern ************************************************************* From Ric We have a forensic anthopologist working on the bone info. She is well- connected in the forensic document analysis world and is looking for the right expert to work on the can lable. I need to let her see who she can find before I parcel out the work elsewhere. So, for now, we'll sit tight. Thanks. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:11:52 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Label Fragment Still thinking about that Label fragment and the lettering... Maybe it said something like: "MUY GRANDE BANANA GROWER PRODUCE" It seems to me that ain't no good english. But I'm sure no expert. I would expect "GROWER'S" making it possesive. Does this suggest that the lettering was done by non-english speaking people? Honduran banana canners? Looking on the shelves, one sees: Libby's, Campbell's, Hunt's and Uncle Ben's, etc. But you also see: "Folgers" (no apostrophe) and it's The "Folger Coffee Co." Inconsistant. Would it have been so in the 30s? We've become a lot more sloppy in language usage than we were 60 years ago. If that label could be tied to a Honduran source, it would appear to date it in the 1930s, not much more recent. That would be pretty significant. Vern ************************************************************* More from Vern had no sooner hit the "send" button when I remembered that I have a very old coffee can in the basement. It was a sure enough 16-ounce pound and was marked 97 cents! Now that's an OLD coffee can. It says: "FOLGER'S" I rest my case. Vern *************************************************************** From Ric I disagree. First, I don't think we can assume that the missing letter is G. Second, if it is G, the label may have said something like INDEPENDENT GROWER PRODUCE. Insisting upon the a possesive form and then ascribing it's absence to a non-English speaking source is not, in my view, justified. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:15:15 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Line of Position I think that the natural bias for the crew would have been to put the navigator facing the estimated location of the island. The pilot's vision would have been slightly limited for looking down. And only AE could see well off the starboard side of the aircraft. I seem to remember that the Plexiglas window on the side of Electra used by Noonan was on the port side (left). To take the dawn navigation shot Noonan would have needed the aircraft to turn south for a few minutes. Even assuming that they were originally heading straight for the island, this maneuver would have placed them slightly south of course. They would have compensated by heading slightly East North East after the maneuver. This would have limited Noonan's ability to see the island below or off the starboard side if they were heading straight towards it. AE's job was to fly first, use the radio second and look third. Noonan was the navigator and the one who was supposes to have time to spot the island. They may have flown very close to the island and still missed it because Noonan's window was facing the wrong way. When they were unsure of their position the tendency should have been to fly long legs from North to South with Noonan looking out the window to the East. Then a wider turn to the East and a South to North run that expected less observation from AE out the starboard side of the aircraft. (That maneuvers would just be primarily to reposition the aircraft for another run to the south with Noonan as the primary observer.) North for a while then a short jog to the East (not trusting AE's limited ability to see to starboard and fly at the same time) followed by another run South with a wider visual search pattern out the port side by Noonan. Just a thought. Warren PS:For those interested in Line of Position for us dummies I recommend the book "Longitude". (Can't tell you the authors name because a sailor borrowed it and hasn't returned it yet) I was reading the book only two months ago. It's about how for centuries ships knew they were far enough East or West for their chosen port but were forced to sail north and south to find it. An accurate sea-going clock finally solved the dilemma. Ironic. Same problem, different era. ************************************************************** From Ric Anybody want to comment on this? I'll just say that there were windows on both sides of the cabin and that Noonan spent much, if not most, of his time in the cockpit. As a general caution I'll point out that anytime you find yourself using the phrase "would have" in an investigation like this, it's well to remember that you're really saying, "I have no idea what really happened but I'm guessing that..." Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:20:26 EST From: Per Axelsson Subject: moving the aircraft Question; If AE had fuel left and tires weren't trashed, then would it be a problem to taxi the plane away from the waterline when the water was rising? If she possibly did taxi the plane towards the treeline could that be the explanation why the plane ended where it did? Not much wind would be needed to turn the plane over and shoving it into the forrest. Then one might wonder why she didn't stay by the plane, but i should think it was a LOT warmer inside the aircraft then outside and if she was low on water...well. There has also been a lot of talk about AE's radio and the belly antenna. I remember watching a television show where TIGHAR recovered an artifact that possibly was from the belly of the aircraft. On that piece of fuselage skin there was a tear along a line which suddenly made a turn around something reinforced. I beleive it was concluded that it was the area where the belly antenna was positioned. If the antenna wasn't there, was it just the mount that reinforced that particular area? Kind regards: Per Axelsson *************************************************************** From Ric The theory you're remembering about the jog in the tear possibly being attributable to the antenna reinforcement has been shown to be not valid. The antenna was not mounted on the centerline as we once thought. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 20:26:45 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Mapping needs Here's another research need. During last year's Niku III expedition we collected a great deal of GPS (Global Positioning System) data on Nikumaroro. We took readings that, when processed, will provide important mapping information about where we searched and where stuff was found. Those data have not yet been processed. We need somone who is GIS facile to turn our raw data into useful mapping info. If you don't know what GIS facile means, then you ain't GIS facile. Any takers? Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 20:26:53 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Tracking Noonan Here's some genealogical research which needs doing if anyone wants to tackle it. We need to find a living blood relation of Fred Noonan in the female line so that we can do DNA comparisons if we can rediscover the bones found on Nikumaroro in 1940, or if we find more bones there. Here's a possible starting place. Richard Noonan, who has a film production company in California (phone 818 760-4442), says that his father Thomas Francis Noonan (born in Bayonne city, NJ in 1894) claimed that Fred Noonan was his cousin. His father, also Thomas Francis, was born in Jersey City in 1864 and had several brothers and sisters. If Fred was the child of one of them, the age would be about right. Fred was born in 1893, reportedly in Chicago. If we can find out who Fred's mother or sister was, and follow that female line to a living person, we'll have the source of mitochondrial DNA we may need. Amelia is no problem. We know her sister's daughter. Any takers? Ric ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:24:28 EST From: Frank Lombardo Subject: coax cable How about this scenario? Prior to taking off from Gardner, remove all equipment from aircraft that can be removed by hand as to lighten aircraft in an effort to conserve fuel for flight. If this cable was used as a jumper between receivers as to utilize one antenna for both, or the jumper used between the 13CB tansmitter and the 20BA receiver. This cable would have been unquestionably removed and discarded. The cable could have been a spare and stored somewhere on the aircraft. *************************************************************** From Ric That still doesn't get the cable to the village that wasn't there yet when the airplane disappeared. At some point, somebody has to pick it up and take it home. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:28:07 EST From: Frank Lombardo Subject: Preponderence of evidence I'm glad youse guys didn't include radio technicians in your discriptions LTM #1806 ************************************************************** From Fred Madio I agree with Ric. Over the years I've been involved in several search-and-rescue "missions' using aircraft as the observation platform, and it can be almost impossible sometimes to see anything the size of an aircraft from the air --- even at 1,000 ft. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:36:28 EST From: James Murphy Subject: Noonan's navigation My first time writing. It seems to me that everyone is grasping at straws or just want to believe that Amelia and Fred were on this island. Mister Noonan's Navigation skills I believe were questioned more than once. If anyone's skills should be questioned it should to be Amelia's flying skills. I know she had a few accidents on landings and takeoffs. I believe the plane is thought to have been washed off the reef into deeper water. It would seem to me that this has to be proved one way or the other. Instead of spending money to prove that a label came from a certain year, which will just leave more questions. Wouldn't it make more sense to use all the money collected to search the deep water off the reef. Until that is done I can't really believe a serious search is going on. Thank You James Murphy ************************************************************** From Ric Your skepticism is healthy, but you need to check your facts. I'd be interested to know what contemporaneous written source questioned Noonan's navigation skills. Also, the plane is not now thought to have most probably washed off the reef into deep water. I'll leave it to other forum members to attest to whether or not a serious search is going on. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:41:09 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: metal detectors A US Navy P-3 Orion aircraft would be a nice choice. But talking the USN into a "training mission" might be a challenge. Right? Wrong? *************************************************************** From Ric Wrong. P-3s look for magnetic anomalies, like big ol' submarines. We have an essentially non-magnetic target that is infinitely smaller than a submarine. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:43:29 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: coax cables Ric, any evidence on the connectors that something like a pair of pliers was used to undo the connection? ************************************************************** From Ric Nope. The connectors have knurled nuts designed to be turned by hand. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:18:59 EST From: Paul Chattey Subject: radios Could you say some more about your sense that it was pointless to pull the radios out? Your list of components is a long one and I don't know how much work would be involved to dismount all that gear. Not being able to recharge the batteries is a drawback ...but the radio was also definite link to the outside and that alone could have been a powerful motivator. Downed bush pilots in Alaska usually stayed with their aircraft, when they could, and used the radios. Also, I think it is usually possible to receive after the ability to transmit is lost a working radio might not have been such a burden. Paul *************************************************************** From Ric I'm going to ask our radio guru, Frank Lombardo, to comment on the complexities of removing the radios and setting them up on shore. *************************************************************** From Dick Strippel Hi, Get in touch with an older ham to get the real scoop on analog-tuned recievers. Meanwhile, if you want tech stuff on AE's radio suite, I'd be glad to send it to you you. PLEASE LET ME KNOW YOUR SNAIL MAIL ADDRESS. I go to a nickel- a-sheet Xerox place, so please mulyiply that by the number of sheets you receive and ADD POSTAGE TO DETERMINE YOUR REMITTANCE TO ME THANX-- DICK, not RIC *************************************************************** From Ric Snail mail address is: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 We'll be happy to reimburse your copying and postage costs, but don't send me undocumented opinion about what radios were in the airplane. I've seen lots of that stuff. The Bureau of Air Commerce inspection report for May 19, 1937 (when the airplane came out of repair at Burbank) does not, unfortunately, list the radios. The November 27, 1936 inspection report lists radios but predates the preparations for the first world flight attempt, not to mention the second. We've seen the receipts for the original purchase of radios for the airplane, we've seen Joe Gurr's letter to Fred Goerner, we know about Fred Hooven's Radio Compass that was installed then removed, we've seen numerous photos of the cockpit showing various radio set ups. If you can provide solid documentation of what was aboard that airplane when it left Miami - bless you. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:24:52 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Historians all > I had to put a label on what we do, I'd say that ... AS A PUBLISHED AUTHOR- I WOULD DISAGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT. DOES THAT MEAN THAT SOME CLOWN WHO GETS A PHd IN PHILOSOPHY IS A PHILOSOPHER ??? ************************************************************** From Ric Interesting point Dick. So who is a philospopher? Someone who is aknowledged to be a philosopher by a published author? ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:32:19 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Line of Position Aggg! I was hoping that you hadn't posted my last message yet. Messed up again. Don't mind me I 'm just here for comic relief folks. I got a book that clearly shows that there was no window on the starboard side of the aircraft so I fired off an email with a theory. At lunchtime today I get a chance to go by a different library. Different book. There it was bigger then life. A cut away drawing of the aircraft with Noonans navigator station and his window on the starboard side of the aircraft. After banging my head on the bookrack for a few minutes I go back to work. I figured I'll try to leave a bit early so I can send an e-mail telling Rick not to post my last message. Every time I head for the door some one stops me with a problem. Too late. Bottom line. Another bad theory gone to it's watery grave. Warren <;) PS: This is the most frustrating topic I've ever looked into. Book after book seems to have inaccuracies. I'm still interested but will in the future limit any mail to what I personally know or write the item in the form of a question. *************************************************************** From Ric You're all right Warren. This is, indeed, a very dificult and frustrating subject. There is a reason that Amelia has stayed lost for 61 years. Most of what "everybody knows" about the case is wrong. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:38:14 EST From: Charles Sivert Subject: Air Classics The April 1998 issue of "Air Classics" has an article titled "FATE:KNOWN", purporting to solve the mystery of Amelia's disappearance. Author is Rollin C. Reineck, who claims FDR knew what happened to Amelia and that the logs of the ship Itasca were altered before release to the public. Also claims "mystery" surrounding her disappearance was an effort to save her reputation as a pilot. ************************************************************ From Ric And a 1995 episode of Star Trek: Voyager showed that she was really captured by space aliens. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:42:23 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Label Fragment Ric, In regard to the label fragment and canned banana "issue".. Is it not possible that A&F aquired these (and other supplies) at their last point of departure? They might not necessarily be on any manifest... But, if these products were in supply for comsumers in Lae, (where'd they get their canned bananas??), maybe there are alot more in a "garbage dump" waiting to be uncovered... Or is this really stretching??!! Aye, just a thought.. sjc - #2110 **************************************************************** From Ric The canned bananas we know about were on the airplane way back in March. Other products could have been put aboard anytime betwen then and July and there is, of course, no guarantee that the canned bananas stayed aboard. It's just an indication of what the emergency rations looked like in March. Products available in Lae would probably be Australian and the can label could, of course, be Australian. Let's not kid ourselves. If we were able to show that the can label was from canned bananas sold in the U.S., it still wouldn't prove that they were Earhart's. It would, however, be one more interesting coincidence in a growing string of interesting coincidences. Conversely, if the label fragment turned out to be from, say, canned Australian kangaroo liver, it wouldn't mean that it wasn't from the Earhart flight because we don't know what was on the Earhart flight. However, if the label turned out to date from a period later than 1937, we could eliminate it from the puzzle. Ric *************************************************************** From Paul Chattey These are good questions, finding the answers is clearly caught our attention. The answer to the question about banana can labels may be closer to home than we've been thinking. The United Fruit Company used to have vast fruit plantations in many of the Carribean and Central American countries, including Cuba, in the 1920s and 30s. The company was a major importer of tropical fruit aboard, among other shipping companies, W.R.Grace Co. ships (Grace later teamed up with Pan Am to form Panagra, the US airline serving South America into the late 60s). The point is, I doubt United Fruit would have manufactured cans and labels in any of "their" countries, at least at the time of AE's flight, as they would need huge quantities of paper, indicating a large paper-production industry and printing facilities, and a tremendous number of cans that would of course have been produced by a local industry (or bottles, which do not ship well.) Industry needs reliable suppliers and in the case of food, the assurance of high quality. Certainly labor was cheap in countries like Honduras, but technology was also rather low. Also, hand-soldered cans tend to leak and fail. As to whether or not we're looking at food produced and labeled overseas, I'm doubtful. Remember, we're dealing with life a few decades ago: processing food for canning would require importing and maintaining expensive equipment, impeccable sanitary conditions, lots of spare parts so you don't have to wait for the next ship, and a staff of technicians for quality control. All of this would have been possible, but very expensive. The processed food would also have to pass some degree of federal inspection to get into this country. Was it worth the expense and risk? It just isn't good for business to have babies ill with botulism from canned bananas with the company label. The whole point of cheap labor was that it was cheap: the process was to pick bananas slightly green and pack them in ship holds for US ports and distributors where the fruit could ripen en route. In the late 1950s, as a passenger aboard the Santa Isabel (W.R. Grace again), I saw entire stalks of green United Fruit Co. bananas loaded in Ecuador. Each stalk was carried by one barefoot man dressed in rags. My vote is for bananas ripened en route and canned in the US. When I last looked, back in the 70s, United Fruit was still in business. I suspect they'd be approachable for research purposes, but as to whether or not they processed and canned the bannas they imported, well, that's another question. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:44:35 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Search and rescue > Guess I've been talking with too many fly boys here at Langley AFB. None of > them would have missed seeing the Electra. Then again, each one I talk to > tells me they are the best of the best...... Thank you fate. A topic that I can comment on without making a further fool of myself. Just before leaving the office today I asked an F-15 pilot (Lt. Col.) who retired 5 months ago about search and rescue. I asked him "if you were searching for a pilot in a raft how big a swath you'd you fly on each leg and what kind of search pattern?" "Depends. But we'd go to the last known position and start a pattern at around 1000 feet. You could see maybe a mile or two either side of the flight path in front of you at best." The rest of his comments were pretty much to the effect that while they'd try their best, but in the absence of smoke or a beacon the chances of a fighter seeing something in the water were pretty slim. Second example. When I attended water survival school a few (ok a lot) years back we were all pretty confident. "Just call out on the radio and pop smoke when the helicopter shows up. Can we go now?" The instructors pointed out that about a year earlier an F-4 went down off the East Coast. One of the guys punched out, floated to the water thinking "it's great to be alive". Swims over to his raft, pulls himself in and things are looking up. He pours out all his survival gear in his lap. He's ready to make a radio call, pop smoke and play with the mirror while snarfing down some survival rations. Figures he'll be home by happy hour with a great story for his grand kids. Wave comes along and tips over the raft. All the survival gear goes to the bottom. Definitely a bad hair day. He rights the raft, crawls back in and waits. A massive air and sea search is launched (I think he was off the North Carolina coast). Days of air and sea searching with no results. The search is called off and he's declared "missing presumed dead". A day and a half later he's luck. A fishing boat spots him and drags him aboard. He was described as dehydrated, hungry and madder then a wet hen. He's seen aircraft go by but they never saw him. There are probably hundreds of similar stories from pilots who did survive. No telling how many lost aircrews died knowing that a search aircraft had flown near by but never saw them. Warren PS:How long did it take to find the A-10 that crashed in Colorado last year? A while back a brush fire in Yellow Stone national park (?) uncovered a World War II bomber that had been lost since the 1940's. In keeping with the spirit of TIGHAR the link below is to a web site set up by the family of a Lear jet crew that went down in New York State just before Christmas. Over a year ago. They have a rough idea of where it went in but haven't had any success yet. Their looking for volunteers in the areas to help search on weekends. *************************************************************** From Ric Links won't process through the list server. The URL is: http:www.ctol.net~jaylearjetmain.html ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:45:07 EST From: Frank Lombardo Subject: Line of position I find it interesting that there is always that assumption that Noonan was awake or alive, in the cockpit, or in the cabin, or for that matter in the aircraft. There were times that Noonan opened the cabin door in flight to conduct air sample experiments. He could easily been sucked out or have fallen out at night over the South Pacific. (Wow! what a great chapter for a book)....Seriously, the cold hard reality is that no one will ever know what his was doing or where he was sitting (another assumption) in that aircraft on the morning July 2 1937. If we start speculating on what window who looked out where and on what side of the aircraft who was where in what turn and in what heading............well hell ! lets throw this one in........She was so preoccupied with trying to find Howland or the Itasca she literally flew the aircraft right into the water at cruise power. You know,... the ole Smilin' Jack routine, "Always looking up never looking down". Everybody back off and take a deep breath.... There! that's better...........Jeeeess! *************************************************************** From Ric Can we get back to work now? ************************************************************* From Dick Strippel >Coming on the scene with no knowledge of navigation You can gain a good overview from books. I suggest: Weems :Aerial Navigation- various pre- WWII years. You'll note a letter therein from Fred Noonan that will answer many questions. --Dick **************************************************************** From Pat Johannes The author of Longitude is Dava Sobel. It's published by Walker and Company. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:49:21 EST From: Bob Sherman Subject: Line of position Fred Neumann, a long dead pilot, wrote in our mag. some years ago, the two basic rules that sustained him in his career; learned the hard way. 1. Throttle back somewhat after sucessfully getting into the air. It prevents having to land every :30 min or so for fuel. 2. Climb to at least 1,000' before setting off for where you are going. One can see a lot more landmarks and stand a better chance of not getting lost. Extrapolated: If Fred Noonan had laid belly down on the floor of the Electra in the tail, looking thru the plexiglas floor window, & AE had seesawed the rudder pedals, he would have gotten a wide, sweeping, panoramic view of the ocean, found HOW and eliminated the speculation of who was looking out of which side. Finding a mile square, 50' high, piece of land in the middle of an ocean has one thing in common with sex. It has to be experienced to be appreciated. RC ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:54:01 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Earhart's sister dead GANG: SORRY TO HEAR THIS, AS SHE WAS ONE OF THOSE WHO THOUGHT I WAS ON THE RIGHT TRAIL, ACCORDING TO ROBBY BENSON. BTW HAS ANTONE HEARD FROM ROBBY- THE A.E FAN NOT THE TEENY-BOPPER ACTOR DICK ************************************************************** From Ric If anyone can help Dick, please reply directly to him. Thanks. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:01:55 EST From: Kenny Feder Subject: search and rescue In a recent post to the forum about missing aircraft, the writer stated: >In keeping with the spirit of TIGHAR the link below is to a web site set up >by the family of a Lear jet crew that went down in New York State just before >Christmas. Over a year ago. They have a rough idea of where it went in but >haven't had any success yet. Their looking for volunteers in the areas to help >search on weekends. The still missing Learjet went down in *New Hampshire*, not New York. Ken Feder 2103 ************************************************************** From Dean Does anyone have any idea (speculation) on how many miles out the Itasca's smoke could have been seen on the day in question? This would give a minimum "miles out" figure ie. if you could see the smoke from 40 miles out and we have a pretty good idea that AE was south of Howland and Baker than one could surmise that they were over 40 miles south of Howland when they started travelling on their LOP. This in turn would perhaps give one a more accurate idea of just how far south they could have travelled.Does this make any sense ? Dean A. *************************************************************** From Ric Baker Island is 40 miles southeast of Howland, so they would have to be far enough south to not be able to see Baker either. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:02:12 EST From: Tom King Subject: Moving the aircraft Per Axelsson's question about taxiing the Electra deserves more response, I think. One of the hypotheses we've been working with is that having landed, she DID taxi up under the trees, because it would have been hot as the blazes inside the plane in the sun. On the last trip we measured the spread of an average buka tree (Pisonia grandis, the major native tree, which covered much of the island in '37) and found it to have a radius of about six to eight meters (ca. 20-25 feet). That could provide a fair amount of shade to a plane the size of the Electra, and make it pretty hard to spot from the air, particularly given the short time the Colorado pilots were overhead to judge from their flight plans. Tom King ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:02:44 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Noonan's Navigation >in all the reading i've done > on earhart (admittedly not exhaustive),i can't recall reading any > discussion about the effect (if any) on the electra's navigational > instruments caused byany possible anomalies created by magnetic changes > occasioned by crossing the equitorial line As a program manager for the Navy in geophysics, there are no navigational anomalies in crossing the equator, nor in the region of interest, nor in any other area of the world, except perhaps near the north or south magnetic poles. On the other hand, many navigators have problems in and around the equator AND the international dateline. Mixing up N S and E W by only 10 miles either way could really screw things up! >one of the versions i read > contains a quote form "reports" that some residents on the island of > tabiteuea (gilbert chain) "heard" her plane passing near the island. if > true, it would seem noonan had her dead-on for landfall at howland I agree, except we don't know where exactly this person heard the plane that night, and Tabiteuea is well over 50 miles long in a N S direction. Not much help there in constraining her flight. Randy Jacobson, Tighar #1364 ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:07:17 EST From: Simon Ellwood Subject: New forum suscriber I'm a new member of this very interesting forum. At the risk of repeating probably often asked questions:- 1) Is there a map of Nikumaroro on the Net somewhere so we can see where some of the places refered to are ? 2) What's the latest on the research into the fabled "L10E Wreck Photo". This is very intriguing ! Is there a higher resolution version than the 255x269 image on the TIGHAR web page ?? I'd be very interested in trying to descern more detail from a better scan. Thanks in advance. Simon Ellwood ************************************************************** From Ric We don't yet have a map of Niku mounted on the website. We'll get to it though. TIGHAR members, of course, have seen various maps in their printed issues of TIGHAR Tracks (hint, hint). The next issue of TIGHAR Tracks will have a write-up on the status of the wreck photo investigation, including some enhanced images. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:12:19 EST From: Gene D'Angelo Subject: Preponderence of evidence It occurs to me that it may be useful (if this hasn't been done already) to ake the accumulated facts and even the accumulated possibilities and assemble them intosome kind of coordinated chronological timeline flow chart. In this way, it would be possible to assess inferred situations at a glance, as well as have a more wholistic overview of what we're dealing with. It would also tend to tie together all of the facets of the fragmentary pieces of the puzzle to some extent. Cause and effect relationships may be more clearly illustrated as well. As an educator, I know that packaging the information at hand in this way can often yield observations of note, simply by virtue of the fact that some people's learning styles and reasoning (depending on dominant hemisphere, etc.) lend themselves to this format more than others. It's certainly worth thinking about. The amassed information exists. Why not make a chronological flowchart timeline with it? THanks for you consideration!--Gene Dangelo, Ph.D. ************************************************************** From Ric You're right Gene. It does help. If I had a nickle for every * * timeline and flowchart we've made over the ten years we've been working on this, our fund-raising problems would be solved. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:16:50 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Label Fragment I certainly agree that one can make a lot of very wrong assumptions about what the rest of that label might have been. From the time I first saw the picture, I wondered how valid the assumption of a G might be. However, it MIGHT be from some place in banana country and, if so, that would sure help date it. Anyway, let's hope some forensic work will come up with SOMETHING fairly definitive. *************************************************************** From Barbara K Hi Ric-I'm one of the new kids-just tuned in a few days ago and am fascinated by the dialogue.....Back to the bananas-The possible connection between AE and Beechnut caught my eye.....I live 25 miles (by crow flight path) from the Beechnut Baby Food plant in Canajoharie NY so I EMailed their Web site....to ask if they might have any information from that era......they responded that their historical library is right across the street from the plant and invited me to call their plant about it....would this be helpful? Is anyone else already doing? Don't want to waste your time (or mine) on a wild goose chase but I would like to help ....and while I love to fly and am fascinated by AE (and a member of ZONTA International) I cannot offer any technical advice on radios or planes etc.......... Thanks for creating this forum and for your (and TIGHAR's) dedication to the project.......my check ISN'T in the mail yet but will be soon,,,,,,,,,,,,, Barbara K *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Barb. It's certainly worth asking them if, by any chance, they produced canned bananas back in the '30s. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:28:29 EST From: Jim Holman Subject: genealogical research JIM HOLMAN HERE, NEW TO FORUM 3 WEEKS, SENT MESSAGE COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, NEVER RECIEVED REPLY, OFFERING SERVICES OF MY SELF AND WIFE AS TO GENEALOGICAL RESEARCH FOR THAT PURPOSE. THIS IS HOBBY WITH US, BEEN IN IT LONG TIME(FAMILY) RESEARCH. PRINTED YOUR MESSAGE WITH KNOWN DATA, WILL BEGIN SEARCH POST HASTE, WILL KEEP YOU POSTED AS TO FINDINGS. MAY I OFFER A THOUGHT? IF THE KNOWN MAX RANGE OF AE'S RADIO IS KNOWN AND THE POSITION OF SHIP AT LAST CONTACT IS KNOWN AND FUEL SUPPLY IS KNOWN(ESTIMATE) AND THE WEATHER AT TIME IS KNOW, WIHCH WOULD BE A FACTOR FOR RANGE OF RADIO AT THAT TIME, COULD YOU NOT TAKE CHART AND COMPASS AND SCRIBE A CIRCLE AND SEE WHAT IF ANY LAND MAY HAVE BEEN REACHED? SORRY FOR ANY OUTDATED THOUGHTS. BEST WISHES JIM. *************************************************************** From Ric Sorry we missed your previous offer. Thanks. The circle you describe can, and has been drawn. Of course, we can't be precise, but it does appear that the only points of land the flight could have reached were Howland, Baker, McKean, Gardner, Hull and Canton islands. There were people at all of those islands except McKean and Gardner. McKean is not much of a candidate - small, barren, rugged (we almost lost some people there in 1989). Gardner (now known as Nikumaroro), on the other hand, ..... ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:33:17 EST From: Ron Dawson Subject: USS Colorado aircraft If the search aircraft form the Colorado reported "definite signs of recent habitation", why didn't the Colorado put ashore a search party? Were they too far away or were they already convinced she had gone down at sea? Ron Dawson redawso@ibm.net *************************************************************** From Ric Good question, Ron. But why should I have all the fun? I'm going to let someone else answer this one. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:37:55 EST From: Al Hall Subject: cannibalizing Speaking of cannibalizing.....the picture I sent you of the Lockheed on Canton was REALLY cannibalized. Both engines ,, both wings beyond the engines, and the rear portion of the plane were gone, leaving the nose, engine cowls etc. and the cockpit [ which seemed to be in good shape] A HOOT FROM THE OLD 'AL' ************************************************************** From Ric Al makes a good point. The Lockheed Ventura wrecked on Canton during the war was cannibalized rather than vandalized. It looked very different from the wreck photo. Components were disassembled and cleanly removed. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:40:34 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: mapping needs I am just beginning to study GIS applications, (I'm a bit of a map nut). If you don't find anyone who is proficient, let me know..., I may be able to contribute alittle further down the road. It's also possible that the college I've been communicating with about their A.A.S. program in GIS would be willing to map out your data, (or maybe let me use their software?). I would be glad to ask them, as well. Sandy #2110 **************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Sandy. Let's see if anyone else responds. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 21:57:44 EST From: Tom King Subject: Reverence I can't find the post now, but awhile ago someone in the forum said that he or she appreciated TIGHAR's "reverent" attitude toward Earhart. As a Niku team member, I'm uncomfortable with this perception. Many of us are, I think, pretty irreverent by nature, and after sweating and slashing and bashing about the island awhile, one tends to become more so. I think it would be fair to say we respect Earhart. We're skeptical of such (at best) disrespectful premises as the one that has her fly dumbly along until she runs out of gas and goes splash, and the one that has her flying around in the darkness trying to spy on the Japanese. But we're NOT reverent, and we shouldn't let anybody think that we are. Tom King *************************************************************** From Ric Okay. I've been threatening to do this and now I'm gonna do it. One of the ways we deal with the considerable stress that is inevitiably associated with an expedition to Nikumaroro is by - well - writing songs. Irreverent parodies, for the most part. Deriding our own folly and poking fun at each other. Tom, in addition to being the best darned archaeologist I ever sailed with (he is also the only archaeologist I ever sailed with), is a master song writer and lyricist. Most of the other team members also contibute, some with genuine genius, but all with good will. Published below, for the first time anywhere, is one of the first songs of the Earhart Project. I have chosen one of my own creation so that no one else has to take the heat for the violence done to anyone's sensibilities. THE EARHART SONG (To the tune of the Air Force Song) Off we go, seeking Amelia Earhart Come along! It'll be fun! Waste your days, listening to lies from old farts Sail away, die in the sun. Down we dive, searching the reef for plane parts Up with none. Hell of a bore! We'll blame Japan. She's on Saipan. Or maybe that's her now at the front door. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:05:45 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Historians GANG- I prefer Arthur Godfrey's term "old fart" to codger instead of "historian" which is far more pretentious than 'researcher" as used by Prymak et al. Sorry Ric -Dick **************************************************************** From Ric Could we all, perhaps, agree on the term "historical guessers" to describe what we do? Sometimes we guess right. Most of the time we guess wrong. But, little by little, we hope that we're piecing together the truth. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:21:20 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan Aye, it's me again... I might be able to help with this one as well. I have quite abit of experience tracking ancestors. There is also quite alot of genealogy done via the internet now..., we might get lucky! I'd be happy to look into it. Sandy #2110 *************************************************************** From Ric Go for it Sandy. You'll note that subscriber (but not yet member) Ron Dawson is also on the trail of Noonan's kin. Now Dawson, like Noonan, is an Irish name, while Campbell is Scottish. Which of you has the advantage? I won't touch that one with a nine foot propeller. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:23:28 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Air Classics > And a 1995 episode of Star Trek: Voyager showed that she was really captured > by space aliens. uh..., maybe we should look for her in Roswell.... ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:28:44 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan Ric, I also meant to mention, that it shouldn't be too difficult to locate his parent's names... Where was his death certificate issued and who was the informant on it? When was he declared dead? Did he have a SS#? They were just starting to issue them at that point in history... Do you have any of his military records?? It "shouldn't" be that difficult to find some kin. Sandy ************************************************************* From Ric I don't know the answers to your questions, but as far as we know, Fred was never in the military. (And please don't anyone quote passages from various conspiracy books which allege that he was a naval officer. If he was, the Navy doesn't know about it. ) ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:37:20 EST From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Search and Rescue Years ago I trained search pilots for the Civil Air patrol. As part of that training I would have the pilots search a mountain side where there was an old T-33 wreck. The T-33 flew into the side of the mountain where there were no trees or other obstructions yet very few of the trainees ever saw the wreckage. Main problem they were looking for an airplane rather than broken up airplane parts. Airplanes on the ground are not easy to see from the air. Air airplane in the surf would be very difficult to see and even one sitting in choppy water easily missed. Has there been any consideration of asking one of the airlines to alter their normal flight plan to over fly Nikumaroro and install photographic equipment on that flight. Probably a long shot both in terms of doing it and the equipment required but a thought. Probably there are several airlines that operate through the general area. Having spent 27 years with Pan Am and United I am certain that no professional pilot would simply fly until running out of fuel if there was an alternate place to land if the primary destination could not be reached for what ever reason. Additionally, I can't believe that a pilot would want to land on either the water or land without engines operating if at all possible. Thus, if Howland couldn't be found and alternate land fall was available, I strongly believe that Amelia and Fred would seek that alternate landing site and land with enough fuel to insure a good landing. It would follow that some fuel would be in the tanks to operate an engine if the airplane was in good enough shape to start the engine following the landing. Dick **************************************************************** From Ric Your experience regarding aerial searches agrees with mine. As for airlines altering routes and equipping planes with cameras - I have to say that I've never heard of an airline doing such a thing. Your opinions of what a pilot would and wouldn't do also agree with mine, but one of the leading proponents of the crashed and sank theory (Elgen Long) is a former airline captain. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:50:05 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Thermometer, broken Vague memories keep rolling around in my head... But if you folks do not recognize the thermometer as typical of something found on an aircraft, I think it may be very difficult to associate it with Amelia and her Electra. Memories can be very misleading and I can not really solidify mine. I think I may have seen thermometers such as you describe... but exactly where? And I'm not sure I understand the description: "a formed right-angle hook 1 / 16 inch in length." (That's an awfully short hook) And: "... terminates in a bulb at the hooked end." Are you describing a thermometer that has been bent at a right-angle very close to the bulb end and that some small portion of the bulb remains? The most I've been able to remember of such bent thermometers is that they were a part of some sort of laboratory instrumentation. They were bent to allow the bulb to be where it needed to be but not to have the whole lingth of it sticking out awkwardly to get broken off. It may also have got the calibrated part of the stem in a better position to read it. Trying to dredge up memories of things I had association with long ago... I think one may be a "Flash Point Tester" used to determine the "flash point" of jet fuel, diesel fuel, etc. Another may have been part of an analytical system involving continuous flow of a very small sample and a temperature critical reaction that was part of the analysis. These kinds of things do not seem to fit at all in the Earhart puzzle. I'm inclined to doubt that the thermometer is really a piece of that puzzle. It's probably a piece from some other puzzle tossed in to make things more confusing! *************************************************************** More from Vern The broken thermometer and: "how did foreign material get 5 mm down into the central tube?" A possible mechanism: Each time the broken end of the capillary tube got wet, from rain or whatever, water would have been drawn into the tube by capillary forces... easily to 5 mm. Tiny particulate material could be carried in with the water. During dry periods, the water would eventually evaporate leaving the solid particles in place. Materials in solution would be deposited when the water evaporated and might tend to accumulate. Both were probably happening. We have no idea for how many years. Where's the rest of the thermometer? People have been there. People pick stuff up and carry it around. Then they loose interest and drop it. ************************************************************** From Ric Sounds like a good explanation of how the material got into the tube. We know that the area where it was found sometimes floods. I agree with your suspicion that the thermometer is not part of the puzzle. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:52:00 EST From: Tom King Subject: coax cable Re: Ric's point that Frank's scenario "still doesn't get the cable to the village that wasn't there yet when the airplane disappeared. At some point, somebody has to pick it up and take it home." Sure, and that's exactly what somebody may have done if, while clearing Aukaraime, they found not only the bones and such, but (perhaps nearby, but perhaps at another time) a pile of gear that had been pulled out of the Electra. Or if they found such a pile near a landing place somewhere else on the island. The "lightening the ship" idea is attractive if we posit a take- off after landing at Aukaraime or elsewhere, perhaps after the Colorado pilots fly over, and perhaps leaving one person dieing (or dead) at Aukaraime. But how we test any of that is anybody's guess. Tom King ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 23:06:55 EST From: Gene D'Angelo Subject: Reverence Hi, Ric! As a music teacher, I must say you've done a reputable job on the syllabication/adaptation of "The Earhart Song." Seriously, though, I did figure that there may be a timeline already in existence, but of course, just like today's computers, as soon as something new is discovered, it's obsolete! Is there someplace that the latest one can be accessed for reference / research / plain old pondering? Again, thanks for your consideration!--Gene :) ************************************************************* From Ric Now we're getting critical acclaim for the stupid songs! But I have to admit that I'm flattered. Tell you what. If we get 10 new members next week I'll treat everyone to Gary Quigg's timeless rendition of "If I Only Had A Rake" (to the tune of If I Only Had A Brain). One of the problems with an Earhart Project timeline is deciding which subject to timeline - the flight itself? the post-loss radio mesages?the history of the island? etc. etc. To do them all together would be a gigantic task and would result in something that would be so unwieldy as to be useless. Sorry. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 23:10:55 EST From: Rebecca Little Subject: USS Colorado Okay, I'll take a crack at this one. I believe the Navy knew Amelia was on land because they had received her SOS's for three days--seems to me there were headlines about that in the papers of the time. And I think it's possible that the Colorado thought Niku was inhabited by someone, so they probably didn't even bother with searching the island. Problem is, wouldn't it have made sense to go ashore and ask whoever they thought was living there if they had seen Amelia or any signs of her? The mystery would have been solved lickety split if they had done that. I put in my two cents on a question and threw out another one.....ah, the life of a historical guesser. Next? Rebecca Little ************************************************************** From Ric Sorry Rebecca. Wrong answer. Next? ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 23:12:34 EST From: Rebecca Little Subject: Reverence Cool song, Ric--I like it. Rebecca ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 21:16:27 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: USS Colorado Dear Rebecca, I am only slightly more familiar with this incident then you are. I am definitely not expert in the field. After posting several ignorant e-mails based upon books written by authors of questionable intent, I spent a bit more time in the library. Conspiracy theory are all the rage now. Books have been written that AE was a spy, shot in Saipan, abducted by aliens or living in Long Beach, California. None of these theories about a big bad conspiracy hold up to close scrutiny. At the behest of President Roosevelt, the support of the US Navy, and various government departments an airfield was built on Howard Island to support her flight. Every effort was made by the American government to support this endeavor. It would have been an accomplishment of great national pride. When her aircraft went missing the US Navy sent a battleship, aircraft carrier and several other ships on a search and rescue mission. The reports in the papers at the time did erroneously report that amateur radio operators claimed to have heard her transmissions. Upon closer scrutiny it was made apparent that a ham radio operators in Wyoming or California couldn't have conceivably have received such messages from the South Pacific. However they did cause confusion and wasted precious search time and effort by the few ships in the area. The batteries onboard the aircraft would not have operated in the water. The aircraft would not have stayed afloat for long in any case. Lockheed calculations were that even with empty tanks the aircraft weighed several thousand lbs. more then required to keep it afloat, (if it was perfectly watertight). On land the radios would have only worked if the he island doesn't have a runway, the propellers would have been torn up on landing and the engines massively damaged. I read some where that under optimal conditions the batteries used to run the radio, on land, would have sustained 30 minutes of radio time under perfect conditions Vacuum technology radios required massive amounts of power to operate. A seaplane from the battleship Colorado did over fly the Island of Niku but didn't see the aircraft or a sign of life. If you follow the e-mail on this subject you will observe some of the reasons that Navy ships couldn't have visited every island in the South Pacific in the time and fuel allowed. I respectfully suggest that you subscribe to TIGHAR Tracks if you're genuinely interested in the subject. Please pay little mind to the curt reply you received. The author answers several dozen e-mails every day. Answering the same question over and over tends to be a bit tedious. Kind of like the 57th person who asks you "what happened" when you've got a leg in a cast.The gentleman in question is by all accounts an individual of infinite jest..and has a good singing voice as well. You just caught him at a bad moment. Best wishes, Warren **************************************************************** From Ric Please don't apologize for me. I've invited forum members to answer Ron's question for a reason. I want to make the point that it's absolutely essential to get the facts right before you start speculating about the unknown. Rebecca was guessing without getting the facts. I simply told her she was wrong. It was not my intention to be short with her and I sincerely hope that she didn't take it that way. You have offered an explanation that is equally wrong, but you have laced it with erroneous statements of fact. For example: >Every effort was made by the American government to support this >endeavor... >Upon closer scrutiny it was made apparent that a ham radio operators in >Wyoming or California couldn't have conceivably have received such messages >from the South Pacific... >Lockheed calculations were that even with empty tanks the aircraft weighed >several thousand lbs. more then required to keep it afloat, (if it was >perfectly watertight)... >Since the island doesn't have a runway, the propellers would have >been torn up on landing and the engines massively damaged. I appreciate your suggestion that she become a TIGHAR member. It would be even nicer if you followed your own advice :) ************************************************************** From Skeet Gifford, TIGHAR 1371C I agree with the scenario that AE taxied the airplane under a tree for shade. The interior would have been unbearable during daylight hours. I can also personally attest to the difficulty of locating an airplane from the air, especially one that is camouflaged. I believe there were several factors in play which dissuaded the USS Colorado from sending a party ashore: 1) A presumption that she landed at sea (today, we call it the Confirmation Bias). 2) Lack of knowledge concerning inhabitants. 3) Concern for the safety of the party sent ashore. 4) The presumption that an aircraft on the island would be easy to spot. Skeet Gifford 1371C ************************************************************** From Dick Strippel >received her SOS's for three days WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN??????????? -DICK THE GADFLY *************************************************************** More from Dick Strippel >search aircraft from the Colorado reported "definite signs of >recent habitation", why didn't the Colorado put ashore a search party GOOD QUESTION! HAVE YOU READ LAMBRECHT'S REPORT? HE WROTE ONE FOR THE BUAER NEWSLETTER. IT'S AVAILABLE. I DON'T THINK HE REPORTED SIGNS OF RECENT HABITATION? --THAT GADFLY TRYING TO KEEP EVERYONE HONEST-- Dick Strippel *************************************************************** From Ric Rebecca and Warren please note. This is what happens when you start to theorize publicly. You had better be able to document your facts or guys like Dick will nail you to the wall. BUT, if you do your homework, you can respond like this: Dick, Yes, of course I have read Lambrecht's report in the BuAer (Navy Bureau of Aeronautics) newsletter, both in its unedited and edited version. What Lambrecht says (verbatim) is, "Here (meaning Gardner) signs of recent habitation were clearly visible but repeated circling and zooming failed to elicit any answering wave from possible inhabitants and it was finally taken for granted that none were there." ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 21:39:11 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Seven days As I understand the current working hypothesis, AE ditched sometime around mid-day on July 2nd. The suspected location on Nikumaroro was overflown by the Navy on July 9th several times and there was "no answering signal". Since they probably wanted to be rescued, they must have been incapable of signaling. Given the local conditions, does it make sense that they would have perished in this time frame? They had access to some food (emergency rations, birds, ?), but how about water? Any fresh water source, did it rain? Would they have searched the island for water if no source was immediately available. Did they have adequate shelter from the sun? What were local temperatures? Does current ID of bones as male suggest Noonan may have buried AE? (I tend to believe women most always outlive men in stressful situations) And, of course, there is the possibility of injury in the crash landing. Does this segment of time, in which they may have perished, fit the scenario? Check six, -jerry ************************************************************* From Ric There is no fresh water on the island, except for rainfall, which can be very sporadic. Rain showers, during that time of year, are usually in the form of isolated squalls and T-storms that happen to hit the island. Daytime temperatures range from the high 80s in the shade (and there is lots of shade) to more than 120F on the beach. We have no way of knowing whether or not it rained on the island during those seven days. If it didn't, they could have been in big trouble, if not dead, by the time the Colorado planes appeared overhead. However, we can not assume that just because the searchers didn't see them, they must have been incapacitated. It is perfectly possible that they were alive and well and waving their little arms off and simply weren't seen. As to whether AE died first and Noonan buried her - let me say this. The shoe remains found at that site suggest that there was a woman present. The bones that were found at the site were probably male. Assuming that the woman also died (a pretty safe assumption), it would seem logical that she therefore died first. Because no other bones were found, and because, in that environment, you would be highly motivated to bury your friend rather than watch her devoured by crabs, it is logical to assume that the male whose partial skeleton was found, buried the female, whose remains (apparently) were not found. Regardless of the identity of the individuals participating in this little drama, there may very well be a woman buried not far from where the shoes, bones, etc. were found. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 21:41:27 EST From: Ann Subject: song I too like your song Ric. Many times a little whistle or song helps when the bugs are biting,the head is pounding,the tummy is rumbling,and circumstances are crashing in on us. As an historical guesser I'd bet AE and FN had a song or too also. In other words, I feel it isn't a case of disrespect but one of knowing reality. Ann ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 21:50:09 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Canton Engine A couple of questions please about the engine. When first recovered by Bruce, what shape was it in? Did it show signs of being in a crash, like a bent propeller attached or part of an engine mount. Damaged fuel or oil lines. Did it have any broken parts? How about the spark plugs and harness? What about accessories on the back? Might be difficult for someone to remove these items without the proper tools. You can't remove a torqued bolt with a pair of pliers! Maybe you could talk about this engine a little more. There may be something to learn from it's condition as reported. Don Jordan (#2109) *************************************************************** From Ric The engine, as Bruce found it in the shallow water on the reef-flat, had no propeller, no mount, no accessories, no wiring harness, several of the cylinder heads were broken off, sand was packed into some of the cylinders. This was one beat-up engine. A coral reef and a few waves can remove things from an engine a whole lot faster than the world's quickest mechanic. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 21:59:02 EST From: Ann Subject: air search Upon lookin through some microfilm of July 1937 newspapers,I found some info.of interest in ref.to the Earhart search. From an AP report in the July10,1937 Hamilton,Ohio newspaper I found the following. ".....yesterday,a plane from the battleship Colorado alighted in a lagoon at Hull Island,southernmost of the Phoenix group, and the crew asked inhabitants if they saw or heard a plane about the time Miss Earhart broadcast her fuel was nearly gone and she could not sight land. The handful of whites and natives could give no help. Lt.J.O.Lambecht,who piloted the plane,said he got the impression they do not know who Miss Earhart is." The AP also reported(July 8)......inquiries to Mr.Putnam and Paul Mantz, Miss Earhart's technical adviser,developed the information the plane carried no water condenser as previously reported.......the fliers carried a month's emergency rations.Mr. Mantz reported the fliers carried three gallons of water when they left New Guinea and planned to rely in an emergency upon rain squalls to quench their thirst." Thought that I'd pass this on to share with the forum for what it's worth. Ann ************************************************************ From Ric Thanks Ann. The only thing I'd question in that press report is how Mantz could have known how much water was aboard the airplane when they left Lae. Nobody in the U.S. had any information about what happened in Lae until the Chater and Collopy letters arrived in the States much later, and neither of those sources mentioned water. Otherwise, the account of John Lambrechts landing at Hull, etc. is fairly accurate. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:09:59 EST From: Simon Ellwood Subject: New forum subsriber I'd love to join and am in the process. Just how quickly can you deliver the TIGHAR Tracks to me, here in England ?? (airmail...hint, hint) :-) Just a quick question, out of interest :- is the photo on the TIGHAR homepage a genuine shot of Amelia's L10E ?? Was it taken on her Round-The-World trip ?? Thanks Simon Ellwood *************************************************************** From Ric We send all international correspondence via airmail. Frankly, we generally lose money on overseas members but our international members are very important to us. Gives the organization perspective. As for the Electra on the homepage, it's really a 10B with Wright engines which belonged to Ansalanta Airlines in Australia. The picture just seemed to lend itself to our purpose. We doctored the nose to include a TIGHAR logo. I particularly like the crowd in the background. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:11:42 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Lady Be Good another wwii story with very similar scenario was the ditching of a b-17 bomber in the pacific ocean while enroute to canton island from hawaii , with wwi ace, eddie rickenbacker on board. they became "lost" in the vicinity of canton island, ran out of fuel &were forced to "ditch" the survivors (including rickebacker) spent almost a month in rafts on the open sea. i don't recall there was any clear explanation as to why they became "lost" & i'm certain they had much more advanced navagational equipment on board than a.e & noonan, so it's one more example of just how easily lost flyers can become when flying over vast areas of the oceans or deserts, without any discernable land-marks to guide their navagation. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:13:33 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Noonan's navigation The TIGHAR search is serious. The can label, while interesting, may only add to what we have as possible evidence. Satellite, air, water searches will most likely be needed along with DNA if bones can be found. In short, the hi-tech solution will most likely produce what we are looking for. As for Noonan's navigation skills, his final performance evaluation was written over 60 years ago. He failed. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:15:50 EST From: Mike Ruize Subject: coax cables With a Loran outfit formerly on the island, I bet plenty of wire can be found scattered around Niku. *************************************************************** From Ric Hey Frank! (Lombardo) That wire come from the Loran station? ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:17:11 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Historians all I recommend taking time to carefully review what Ric and TIGHAR have done on this issue. This should include carefully reading TIGHAR's homepage to assist with participation on the forum. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:37:55 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: search and rescue The questions I asked are not about AE & FN floating around in a raft in the middle of the Pacific. The question is about an Electra on Niku. If three planes repeatedly "circled and buzzed the island" and missed either scattered wreckage or an intact Electra on Niku seven days after the plane went down, the plane was not there (on land). That does not mean it didn't land there. ************************************************************* From Ric I have trouble with categorical statements about the results of experiments we neither observed nor know much about. We really don't know how much time the planes spent over Gardner, but based upon what we do know about where they went that morning (McKean, Gardner, Carondolet Reef, and back to the Colorado) when they left the ship (07:00), and when they returned (10:00), and the cruising speed of an O3U-3, it's hard to give them more than about ten minutes over the island. We don't know at what altitude they searched. Lambrecht's report specifically says that they tried doing McKean at 50 feet and got scared witless by the birds. After that they stayed above 400 feet. The photo of Gardner taken from one of the airplanes appears to be taken from about 1200 feet. These things always come down to opinion, but in mine, an aircraft parked in the shade of a tree or scattered wrecakge on the reef flat (we know from the photo that the tide was high and surf on the reef-flat was rough that morning) could have been easily missed. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:47:27 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: USS Colorado Extracted from a report submitted 29 July by the Itasca to commandant, 14th naval District, Pearl Harbor. [Ric, Please don't tell me that this summary extracted from an "exact" copy of the report in Appendix B also wrong. I'm really beginning to wonder if anything in these books is accurate] 2 July AE's aircraft goes missing. 2 July 2145 (local or Zulu?) Itasca told to stand by at Howard Island on 3 July to support arrival of a Navy plane from Hawaii. (Ric- sea plane?) 3 July Itasca informed that the Navy plane turned back because of bad weather. Itasca resumes search to the North. 6 July Coast Guard ship Itasca directed to report for duty with USS Colorado. 7 July USCG Itasca contacts USS Colorado and takes on fuel & commissary stores. The report doesn't give the geographic coordinates of the link-up but it must have been north or near Howard Island. The USS Colorado was a Battleship. It had 3 sea planes with which to search an extremely large area. The battleships burned massive amounts of fuel. Off loading fuel to other ships so that they could carry on the search must have also cut into their range. They likely attempted to search in the most effective pattern possible given the fuel and range limitations. The Battleship was relieved of search duties upon the arrival of the aircraft carrier Lexington around 11 July. Between the 7th and 11th is wouldn't have been practical for the battleship to visit and put ashore parties on every island in the region. (IMHO based upon books of questionable reliability. Void where prohibited by law.) Warren *************************************************************** From Ric You're getting warmer. The time line is accurate. The Navy plane sent to Howland and forced to turn back was a PBY-1. However, Colorado's urgency to conclude its search was not occasioned by a concern over fuel. She had plenty. There were two factors which nobody has mentioned yet. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:54:14 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: USS Colorado You probably all ready have this article rat-holed away in some file. No doubt you're swamped with useless news articles that don't really help. Probably not worth posting now but might fill in a tiny piece of the puzzle at a later date. I only pass it along because it included an item about the Colorado's seaplane search. Warren --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Museum of the City of San Francisco Web site: Lonely Ocean Still Holds Secret of Amelia's Fate Search of the Phoenix Islands in the South Seas was completed last night by planes of the battleship Colorado without a sign of Amelia Earhart and her navigator, Frederick J. Noonan. After returning from a fruitless morning flight, the three catapulted aircraft made an equally discouraging exploration of Canton island, largest of the group. And in San Francisco George Palmer Putnam, husband of the aviatrix, abandoned the sleepless vigil he has maintained since the last message came from the plane a week ago Friday and departed for his home in North Hollywood. "There is nothing further I can do here," he said before his departure. "It is not that I have given up hope. I am sure they will be found when the Lexington reaches the scene, but I can get the news just as quickly in Hollywood as I can here." He was accompanied on the United Air Line airplane to Los Angeles by his son from a former marriage, David Binney Putnam, 24. Chief hopes of those who believe Miss Earhart and her navigator are still alive rest with the aircraft carrier Lexington, approaching the scene of the search from Hawaii. Officers aboard the giant carrier radioed the 62 planes aboard are being brought on deck and fueled, and may take off today. The Lexington is expected to arrive south of Howland Tuesday, but it is believed some of her long range planes will take to the air before she actually reaches the scene. Although navy officials did not disclose the exact part the carrier will play in the hunt, it was believed the Lexington's flyers may first explore the Gilbert islands, about 400 miles west of Howland island. As an example of the difficulties confronting the three aviators attached to the U.S.S. Colorado, who have been flying over the South seas for several days, Lieutenant John O. Lambrecht, one of the pilots, related the details of a landing he made at Hull island, one of the few inhabited islands in the area. He brought his seaplane down to the waters of a lagoon inside the island. Great clouds of frightened birds blackened the sky as he flew to a landing and a throng of awe-stricken natives rushed from their huts. It was the first airplane any of them had ever seen. His motor idling, Lieutenant Lambrecht waited in the lagoon until a canoe manned by the entire population of 30 Polynesians and one white man was paddled alongside. The sole white man, an Englishman clad in immaculate white ducks, greeted the navy flyer with, "Cheerio!" When the Lieutenant asked if they had seen any trace of Miss Earhart's plane he encountered only blank faces. None of them had ever heard of Miss Earhart. After a chat of a few minutes Lieutenant Lambrecht took off and resumed his search. Besides the Colorado, the Coast Guard cutter Itasca and the mine sweeper Swan are still engaged in the search, the Itasca having arrived before the scheduled arrival of Miss Earhart July 2 at the end of a 2570-mile flight to Howland from Lae, New Guinea. Radio listeners heard no further signals on the three radio bands assigned Miss Earhart yesterday. San Francisco Chronicle July 11, 1937 *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks for posting that Warren. I'm not sure we have that particular wire story. Incidentally, the Englishman clad in immaculate whites was John William Jones who was managing the Tokelau laborers on Hull for the Burns Philp company. (sorry, just showing off) ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:15:56 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Moving the aircraft From movietone newsreel of the type of aircraft that could have been catapulted from the uss colorado, i seem to recall that such craft were single engine, open cockpit floatplanes, with only room for pilot & observer, not the best platform for making any kind of detailed observations from the air. my guess is, however, that the their flyover of gardner island was probably done at low level (wave-top), in order to give the pilot & or observer the best possible angle from which to eyeball any details on the groundlevel (in fact one report did note "signs of recent habitation'). i rather doubt they could have missed seeing an aluminum (in-tact) electra, even if it had been taxied up the beach into the shady area supplied by the trees, as i feel certain that the last thing a.e. noonan wanted to do was to hide from any kind of air search effort. does anyone know whether the naval flier who reported signs of "habitation" on his flyover of gardner island was ever interviewed as to his description of the type of habitation he observed?/ don neumann sandon@webtv.net *************************************************************** From Ric This is really good because it makes the point of how dangerous it is to draw conclusions from assumptions. As noted in my earlier post, the aerial of Gardner was not made from wave-top height. It was made from at least 400 feet if not higher. As to the question of "hiding" the airplane from an aerial search - remember that the last thing Earhart or Noonan could have expected was an aerial search. As far as they knew, the Itasca was the only search asset in their part of the world. Unless they monitored the search radio traffic they could have had no way of knowing, and probably would have been shocked to know, that the Navy was sending a battleship all the way from Hawaii to look for them. Their only means of calling for help was in the airplane and, in that environment, the unshaded Electra had to have been an oven. If they could get the airplane into the shade it seems to me like they would have. But that's just my guess. Lambrecht was interviewed by Fred Goerner in the early 1970s. When questioned about what was actually seen on Gardner he (reportedly) said, "Markers of some kind." There may have still been a flagpole on the beach with a placard on it, left there by HMS Leith in February of '37. Could that be what Lambrecht saw? Does that qualify as a clear sign of recent habitation? All of the other islands of the Phoenix Group also had flagpoles and placards installed in an effort to establish British ownership. Lambrecht doesn't mention seeing them. There were also some collapsed huts with corrugated iron roofing from the 1892 coconut planting operation. Might Lambrecht have described them as markers? What made him think they were "recent?" ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:25:26 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Badly researched books for fun and profit I'll try to quit bothering you with so many e-mails. Just another side note. (I haven't been able to order the non-digital copies of TIGHAR yet so you may have covered this in earlier publications.) I've finished Buddy Brennan's book "Witness to the Execution". The only redeeming feature was that the Appendix had copies of some original documents. Next. Got a copy of Joe Klaas's book "Amelia Earhart Lives." Glanced at the pictures but hadn't started reading it. Had the feeling that the book should have started "Once upon a time." Now I'm not sure it's worth the effort. Amongst the "Key" pictures for his "she was shot by the Japanese" theory was one of AE being served in a Japanese tearoom. The photograph is described as "unique and planted in Joe Gervais' safe" Coincidence. Someone mentioned that Air Classic magazine had an article in it about AE so I perused it today. Lots of smoke & mirror "what if stuff". But it does have one redeeming item. Page 50 has a photograph of AE. With the same Japanese ladies, tea table, etc as was shown in the Klaas book. Only difference is that her husband George Putnam is sitting next to her. Next. (Well I guess I save myself 272 pages of reading.) Should I bother with the book "The Sound of Wings" by Mary S. Lovell? Or any other of the long line of books? Thanks for your patience. Warren *************************************************************** From Ric Recieved your membership today. Thank you. "Amelia Earhart Lives" is a collectors piece. McGraw Hill pulled it off the market when they got sued because of the groundless allegations it makes. By all means read it. It's a scream. Mary Lovell's book is probably the best Earhart biography out there. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:33:38 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: search and rescue From the Electra No Land Club Three slow, low flying planes from the Colorado did not see a (shiny) Electra (or wreckage, which also should have had shiny parts) on 9 July because it wasn't there (on land). You are not going to miss an Electra on a setting like Niku. The October 1937 Gilbertese Tour did'nt see any plane either. (What amounts to a confirmation). There have been not 10's, but hundreds of people on Niku with no movie theatres to go to. Only hobby available: exploring the island (well, one of the few hobbies available) The Electra was either in the lagoon or the ocean by 9 July 1937. Signed, Electra No Land Club. **************************************************************** From Ric I guess we're going to have agree to disagree on this point. Until you've been to Niku and have seen the "setting" first hand its difficult to appreciate how easy it is for stuff - big stuff - to hide on that island. (Am I right team members?) According to people we interviewed on Funafuti last year, one of the things the kids did (because they had no movie theaters) was play on an airplane wreck over in the bushes on the Nutiran shore. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:50:11 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: USS Colorado aircraft I think that's because whatever they saw did not rank high enough in their minds to warrant a search. If the Colorado pilots eyes were sharp enough to see recent signs of habitation (such as a campfire), they certainly would have seen an Electra. *************************************************************** From Ric It's interesting to note that Lambrecht's report is directly contradicted by Friedel's (captain of the Colorado) report which says that no signs of habitation were seen. Lambrecht was there. Friedel wasn't. Ron's original question is still a good one. Why didn't Colorado put a party ashore? What might have motivated Friedel to dismiss (we won't use the term cover-up) rather follow up on any possible lead? There are a couple of very good reasons I haven't heard anyone mention yet. ************************************************************* More from Mike Also, three planes searched Niku. And if AE and FN weren't running up and down the beach waving, they were kaput by 9 July. ************************************************************* From Ric Let me tell you a little story. In 1989 a RNZAF P-3 Orion flew low (maybe 500 feet) over Niku while we were there. They knew about the expedition and were in the area anyway and just swung by to say hi. About 12 of us were standing out in the open, wearing brightly colored clothing, and waving our arms off. The P-3 made a couple of passes right nearby, buzzed our ship, but never showed any sign of having seen those of us on land. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:56:56 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Anthology Ric: Isn't all that type of information in the Earhart Anthology Project Book? What exactly is the EAPB? *************************************************************** From Ric The Anthology and the Project Book are two different things. The Earhart Project Anthology is a compilation of all the Earhart Project articles that have appeared in TIGHAR Tracks over the years. It's available in printed form and can be ordered via the website (www.tighar.org) The Project Book is a complete review of the project but hasn't been updated since 1993. We'll be doing that later this spring. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:14:22 EST From: Bill Zorn Subject: search and rescue in your response to Mike Ruiz you mention the photograph appers to have been taken from 1200 ft. does the original negitive or a contact print of the negative still exist. it should be possible to work backwards from that point, if you know the particulars of the camera involved, lens type, probaball f-stops, film type etc. it is possible to do a detailed analasis of the photo to arrive at and fairly presise altiude value. also knowing the resolution of the film could help. would have to factor in circles of confusion, and film grain, but you might be able to arrive at a value on how small an item might be visible. it is also possible with photo enhancement techniques to review any and all photographs before and after a.e.'s possible arrival of the island for new clues or indicators. or perhaps you have done this already, and i'm just not paying attention whz tigar member#1562c ************************************************************ From Ric Photek Forensic Imaging of Hood River, OR has looked at the best print we can get our hands on. The quality is pretty lousy. Not much information to be had. Photek has also done lots of digital enhancement work on other images of the island and we have found some very ineteresting stuff which has been written up in TIGHAR Tracks. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:32:01 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: USS Colorado Ric writes: >You have offered an explanation that is equally wrong, but you have laced it >with erroneous statements of fact. For example: > >>Every effort was made by the American government to support this >>endeavor. I based that upon a Xerox copy of a letter Amelia Earhart sent to the President of the United States (Nov 10, 1936). The attached memorandum dated 16 Nov 36 was sent to the Chief of Naval Operations says in total: "The attached letter was handed me this morning, together with the information that the president hoped the Navy would do what they could to cooperate with Miss Amelia Earhart in her proposed flight and that in this connection, contact should be made with her husband, Mr. Putnam. Paul Bastodo." There is also a letter dated may 7 1937 from Chief of Naval Operations Leahy to Mr. Putnam confirming that the Navy Department will be glad to cooperate with Miss Earharts flight. I won't bore you with other copies of letters from the White house informing AE that the proposed in-flight refueling idea was cancelled in favor of Federal funds being made available to construct an emergency landing field on Howard island. They specifically built a runway for AE on Howard Island. At least two US ships were dispatched to support that leg of her flight. The USS Swan and the USCG Itasca. They also put ashore a DF set on Howard Island. I'm not sure what you consider "full support" by the American government. I stand by my ill-informed opinion that "Every effort was made by the American government to support this endeavor" >>Upon closer scrutiny it was made apparent that a ham radio operators in >>Wyoming or California couldn't have conceivably have received such messages >>from the South Pacific. We can drag out all the newspaper clippings of stories that appeared in the papers about what radio operators claimed to have heard around the world. The one I'm looking at is a Xerox of a U.S. Coast Guard Official Dispatch from COMDT Ninth Naval District to OPNAV TOR is 0102 Navy 2 B2 (dated 6 July 37.) Msg reads in total: "2006 following unconfirmed report from Mrs. Young Wilmette Illinois unidentified party who claims to have received it via short wave voice at about midnight quote from Amelia Earhart we cannot last more than three hours longer position 42 miles north Howard island unquote source being checked 0030." There are other copies of dispatches sent to naval units of other alleged intercepts. My primary point on this matter is that while people may have read about radio reports (in the newspapers) after she went down, and they did cause some confusion, none of these alleged reports was ever verified. I safely stand by my assertion that radio operators across America could not have received distress calls from AE days after she went down. >>Lockheed calculations were that even with empty tanks the aircraft weighed >>several thousand lbs. more then required to keep it afloat, (if it was >>perfectly watertight). I'm not digging back through all those stacks of paper. However quoting from Mary Lovell's book "The Sound of Wings" page 289 a Lockheed Electra ditched under near ideal conditions and floated for eight minutes before sinking. If you have better information from Lockheed indicating that the aircraft would float indefinitely then please share it with the less informed of us. In the mean while I stick by my opinion that Lockheed never built a plane that would float for any sustained period of time >>Since the island doesn't have a runway, the propellers would have >>been torn up on landing and the engines massively damaged. Granted this on this one it's just a matter of opinion. But as a proud flyer on the Lockheed C-130 (the best tri-motor aircraft in the world (reference to our frequent engine problems) there was no scenario in which we would have tried a gear down landing on any surface other then a runway. One rock or tree stump and you cart wheel. It's gear up all the way. Of course we could be wrong. Having disagreed with you on several points, I just like to add. You're doing an excellent job of research. Please don't take any of my technical disagreements as personal affronts. And finally. If a nice rich old lady come up to you at a tea party and asks if you've talked to AE lately, bite your tong and explain that "No mam, she's gone missing and that's why we need your support. Drafting a polite form letter that says "Thank you for your suggestion /input, but we've all ready looking into that aspect of the case and find there is no evidence to support that theory" might be useful. Just a suggestion from someone who once worked trying to raise money for another campaign. Warren;) PS: I was trying to be polite, semi-humorous and helpful. I mailed the check off days ago. Really. *************************************************************** From Ric Good defenses. On the first issue, as you note, it comes down to your definiton of "every effort." As to whether it was theoretically possible for people all over the U.S. to have heard messages sent from Earhart in mid-Pacific, I think that any knowledgable radio person would tell you that HF signals can skip to literally anywhere. I'm not saying that any of the alleged reports were true (and I frankly doubt that they were) but there is no physical reason that they could not have been. It's true that an Electra ditched off Massachusets and sank in only a few minutes, but it didn't have the massive, empty, fuselge tanks Earhart's had. It was Lockheed's expressed opinion at the time of the disappearance that the machine could float indefinitley. Whether it really would or not is another question. There were several places on Nikumaroro in 1937 where it should have been possible to make a successful gear down landing. It seems like AE would have wanted to if at all possible. Remember that our conventional wisdom about going in gear -up if off-airport is largely the result of experience gained in WWII. I 1937, retractable gear was just becoming common. The Electra was the first retractable that Earhart owned. Thanks again for your membership. Rebecca joined too. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:36:11 EST From: Rebecca Little Subject: USS Colorado Why? Rebecca *************************************************************** And also from Rebecca Dear Forum Members, I answered Ric's past e-mail before I read this one, obviously. I also thank all of you who gave the info I was asking for. That's what we're here for--to learn. But there are some things I now want to ask all of you, the first being, "What have we been doing on this forum besides essentially speculating?" Filmmaker James Cameron once said that there are parts of history that are only matters of conjecture. This is true not only for Titanic in his case but also for Earhart in ours. We really don't know what exactly happened to AE and FN during their final whatever-it-was on this earth, and there's no way we can know. All we can do is take what we do have and arrange it, rearrange it, etc. I don't remember offhand who first coined the term, "historical guessers," but all that aside, what does this phrase actually mean? Does it mean we know everything there is to know about whatever topic that we are pursuing? Does it put us on some sort of pedestal? In my opinion historical guessing is exactly the opposite. The very word "guessing" is equivilent to speculation. You don't have to answer these questions here, but they are things that even the most inexperienced of us have to ask ourselves sooner or later, that is, if we want to gain any wisdom at all. Sincerely, Rebecca Little ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:51:31 EST From: Russ Matthews Subject: USS Colorado >There were two factors which nobody has mentioned yet. Okay, Ric. I'll ring in here with one of them and leave the other up for grabs. When word of the Earhart disappearance reached Hawaii on July 2, the U.S.S. Colorado was in the middle of "...a one month's training cruise of the Naval Reserve Officers Training Corps Students from the University of California, and Washington." On July 12, the Colorado was "...detached from the search group and directed to return to the West Coast in order to debark the Naval Reserve Officers Training Corps Students and Naval Resrve Officers. These students with the distinguished guests [faculty members from four colleges active in NROTC] embarked for a month cruise, which extended into a six weeks cruise..." The above quotes are taken directly from a report prepared on July 13, 1937 by Captain Wilhelm L. Friedell, USN (commanding officer, U.S.S. Colorado) entitled "Resume Earhart Search by the U.S.S. COLORADO (In Charge of Search Group)." It was an easy task for me to "do my homework" on this matter as the full text of the Friedell report (and 30 other relevant documents) is reprinted in a TIGHAR's "Earhart Project Companion." I'll bet there are still a few copies of this publication available - how about it, Ric? LTM Russ Matthews Member # 0509CE P.S. For me the expression that best captures the TIGHAR spirit would have to be, "take the work seriously, not yourself." ************************************************************** From Ric I knew the heavy-hitters would start weighing in eventually. We're presently revising the Companion because so many important new documents have come to light. *********************************************************** From Randy Jacobson, TIGHAR 1364 (and Senior Earhart project researcher) Okay. It is time to set the record straight. Three of many possible reasons why the Colorado did not put parties ashore was that they were having their "equator crossing" party at the exact time passing through the "passage" between McKean and Gardner Island. In addition, Navy Regulations require prior permission to land on territory of another country. Since the Phoenix Islands did not belong to the US (with the possible exception of Canton - that's another long story), it would only be in the most dire emergency to put men ashore. Poor Johnny Lambrecht got in trouble when he landed in Hull without permission. Finally, the current maps available of Gardner (based upon fleeting glimpses of the Southern Exploring Expedition (i.e. the Wilkes Expedition) of the 1840's) indicated a completely different island in shape and size than what was actually observed. In fact, Captain Friedell of the Colorado made several observations of the positions of the north and south points of Gardner, and sent a detailed letter to the US Navy's Hydrographic Office to help correct the errors. *************************************************************** From Ric And here's one more reason. This was to be Friedell's last cruise as CO of the Colorado. He had already had his farewell party at Hilo, Hawaii just before the ship was scrambled for the Earhart search. The failure of the ship's aviators to find Winslow Reef just before they searched McKean and Gardner created a great lack of confidence in the available charts. Friedell was not about to put BB-45 on a reef on his last cruise ans so was loathe to come anywhere near the islands with his boat. All the factors mentioned above, documented in original USN reports, added up to no search parties going ashore anywhere. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:45:45 EST From: John Clauss Subject: search & rescue Mike Ruiz, Keep in mind that Niku is much larger than most people visualize, approx. 4nm long by 1.2nm at it's widest point. I'll give you an example of something that happen during the 89 expedition. A New Zealand Orion on fisheries patrol overflew the island at an altitude of about 500'. They knew we were there and were looking for us. About ten of us were out in the open on the Nutiran mud flat waving and carrying on. They flew right over us, saw our ship, Pacific Nomad, but never saw anyone on the island. There are places on the island, in the bush, from which you couldn't get to an open piece of ground in a half hour. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:48:16 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Signs of habitation Tom Dawson asked about the "signs of habitation". Ric asked for someone else to jump in on the discussion. I wrote about this awhile ago in response to Tom Cook. My message and Ric's notes follow..... Attention Veteran Forum readers, if you recognize this exchange.....hit delete, it is long! Tom Cook asked: >Why wasn't Gardner searched on the ground if evidence of recent >inhabitance was reported from the air? The Navy had seaplanes available, >didn't they? Ric provided an excellent reply to this. I agree with all his statements. However, I would like to add some additional thoughts and information. Reports of various people seeing signs of previous habitation on Gardner Nikumaroro Island are discussed below. Prior to the disappearance of Earhart 1937, at least one visitor to the island reported seeing signs of human occupation. Within months of the Earhart flight, In addition to the Navy, at least one other person saw signs of human activity. Lets examine what other visitors saw and what they reported both contemporaneously and during later interviews or correspondence. This is not meant to be an exhaustive list of visitors to the island. Reference No. 1. NIKU Source Book 2. TIGHAR TRACKS, March 12, 1992, Volume 8, Number 12 3. Tom Kings personal files and Email messages to Kenton Spading (and others) 4. Kenton Spading's field notes from NIKU III and various Email messages to TIGHAR members. 5. TIGHAR TRACKS, June 15, 1993, Volume 9, Number 2 VISITORS, GROUP NO. 1, November 1929 a.) J. Thomas, Eyewitness Account of Gardner Island following the wreck of the Norwich City, See Reference No. 1, Tab No. 3, Doc. No. 14. Mr. Thomas was a survivor of the S.S. Norwich City which ran aground on Gardner Island in November 1929. Mr. Thomas states in a hand written note, (original spelling and grammar left intact): [J.T. referring to Gardner Island] "Near the palms we found two desused galvanised roofed huts and a large water tank which were in a state [of] collapse, but which indicated to us that the island had at one time been inhabitated most probably with a view of growing coconuts.......] The huts and water tank Mr. Thomas refers to were undoubtedly left behind by the John T. Arundel group. Mr. Arundel obtained a coconut (copra) license from the British government on Feb. 1, 1891. A group of natives were left on the island that year (some were reported to have arrived prior to 1891....). When the HMS Curacoa visited the island on May 28, 1892, 20 Niue natives (under the command of an Englishman) were working on the coconut project. Apparently the project was abandoned later that year. Later, Harry Maude reported 111 coconut bearing trees when he visited Gardner in October 1937. See Reference No. 1, Tab No. 3, Doc. No. 15. The aforementioned Document No. 15 mentions that Sir Albert Ellis found coconut bearing trees on the island during his visit in 1890 (a secondary source of info). VISITORS, GROUP NO. 2, July 9, 1937 b. Lt. John O. Lambrecht's (and crew) report on his flight over Gardner Island on July 9, 1937 as part of the search for Amelia Earhart carried out by the USS Colorado. See Reference No. 5, Page 6. Lt. Lambrecht wrote in his report of the flight over Gardner Island: "Here signs of recent habitation were clearly visible but repeated circling and zooming failed to elicit any answering wave from possible inhabitants and it was finally taken for granted that none were there" During an interview with Mr. Lambrecht in 1972 he stated that he saw "markers" (See Reference No. 5, Page 6). VISITORS, GROUP NO. 3, October 1937 b. Eric Bevington and Harry Maude (and natives), Excerpts from Mr. Bevington's diary and correspondence with Harry Maude regarding their visit to Gardner in October 1937. See Reference No. 2, Pages 6 and 7. Harry Maude and Eric Bevington visited the island in October of 1937 to conduct a survey as part of a colonial resettlement project. Mr. Bevington stated in his diary that he saw "signs of previous habitation" on the island. During an interview in 1992 he stated that (as best he could recall) "it wasn't much.....like someone had bivouaced for the night" He indicated (without knowing where TIGHAR had been) that the place was near the area where TIGHAR found the shoe artifact in 1991 (SE part of the island). See Reference No. 2, Pages 6 and 7. Dr. Tom King (TIGHAR member) corresponded with Mr. Maude recently. He asked him about the "signs of previous habitation" that Eric mentions in his diary. Maude remembered it as being [a] "pile of sand" (see Reference No. 3). During the Niku III expedition, I found relatively large piles of sand near the shoe artifact site. It looked like a Babai pit or an abortive well (see Reference No. 4). GROUP NO. 4, September 1940 Gerald Gallagher, British Magistrate, Gardner Island reports that a human skeleton, sextant parts, a women's shoe and other artifacts have been found on the southeast portion of Gardner Island. See Reference No. 1 Tab No. 4, Doc. No. 29. VISITORS, GROUP NO. 5, TIGHAR EXPEDITIONS , 1989, 1991, 1996, 1997 TIGHAR's expeditions have found items that support the previous observations of human activity. A large concrete marker was found in 1989, a bivouac site (in 1991) in the area described by Bevington, and in the same locale, piles of sand were found in 1997. (NOTE: the island had been continuously occupied from 1938 until 1963) Thoughts: The following discussion appreciates the fact that some of the aforementioned information was obtained from interviews that occurred many years after the event in question. The frailty of human memory must always be considered. However, a lot of the information was recorded contemporaneously. Getting back to Tom Cook's original question......"Why wasn't Gardner searched on the ground if evidence of recent inhabitance was reported from the air?" All of Ric's comments on this apply. In addition, we do not know what sort of questions fellow shipmates asked Lt. Lambrecht after his return to the Colorado and the filing of his official report. However, it is not too hard to imagine that he saw the corrugated tin roofs of the huts and other debris left behind by the Arundel group 40+ years earlier. The tin roofs might have seemed "recent" to Lambrecht as opposed to the much older masonry structures he may have have seen on other islands ( McKean Island?? circa mid 1800's?). In any case, this could have easily have been dismissed as being something built by the Earhart crew and for the all reasons Ric stated.....it was time to move on. The pilots may have seen other abandoned and occupied structures on other islands making old huts and associated debris a relatively common thing to see. The Norwich City survivors reported seeing Arundel's huts and a water tank in 1929 only 8 years prior to the Navy's search. The huts were apparently still identifiable as huts not just scattered debris. The British also made a point of placing a Union Jack flag on the island in 1892 and were very concerned about documenting their claim to the island (See Reference No. 1, Tab No. 3, Doc. No. 15.) The "marker" Lambrecht remembers could easily have been a flag pole or possibly a landing marker (for landing boats) or maybe a concrete monument claiming British ownership. Indeed, a large concrete monument was found near the beach during TIGHAR's NIKU I expedition. Bevington and Maude could have stumbled onto items left behind by the Arundel group. It is hard to say. The piles of sand found during the NIKU 3 expedition support Maude's "pile of sand" observation. The camp fire site found by the NIKU 2 expedition supports Bevington's "bivouac" observation. If Arundel's group had dug pits in the area, campfires for lunch were probably also needed which logically ties both observations together. It is clear that the Norwich City survivor observed structures related to the Arundel project. In my opinion, it is highly probable that the Navy also observed items left behind by the Arundel workers and thus dismissed them as being related to Earhart. What Bevington, Maude, Gallagher and TIGHAR found (especially Gallagher and TIGHAR) requires further study. We have strong evidence now that ties the shoe artifact site (or at least the SE portion of the island) to the Earhart flight. These things include: 1. pieces of a women's shoe, approx. the size that Earhart wore, and pieces of another shoe (possibly a man's?) found by TIGHAR 2. The discovery of a human skeleton, sextant parts and a women's shoe on the SE portion of the island found by Gallagher and his workers 3. and, of course, various aluminum and plexiglass items that appear to be from a civilian aircraft with characteristics similar to a Lockheed Electra I hope this discussion sheds more light on the subject. Love To Mother Kenton Spading 1382CE ***************************** Ric's notes on my message follow I have just a couple of comments on Kenton Spading's excellent and, as always, learned addition to my reply to Tom Cook's question about why the navy didn't search Gardner in 1937. Kent wonders whether Senior Aviator Lambrecht may have seen, in 1937, the same remains of Arundel's huts reported by the Norwich City shipwreck survivor in 1929. I think that's certainly possible. As Kent says, Lambrecht's characterization of what he saw on Gardner as "signs of RECENT habitiation" may be an attempt to contrast them to the obviously ancient "stone" ruins he had just seen at McKean Island. As a matter of fact, the last remains of Arundel's huts may still be standing. In 1989, TIGHAR team members John Clauss and Veryl Fenlason came upon and photographed some very delapidated wooden framing along the northwest shore of the island just north of the shipwreck. At the time we assumed that it dated from the 1938-1963 habitation of the island, but it could be much older. It has always amazed me how certain objects and structures on the island have survived the years. Kent mentions that: >The British also made a point of placing a Union Jack flag on the island in >1892 and were very concerned about documenting their claim to the island >(See Reference No. 1, Tab No. 3, Doc. No. 15.) Actually, another flag and placard were placed on the island just a few months before Earhart's disappearance. HMS Leith visited Gardner on 15 Feb 1937 just long enough to erect a flagpole and placard proclaiming the island to be the property of His Majesty the King. (Niku Source Book, Section 2, Item 2) >The "marker" Lambrecht remembers could easily have been a flag pole or >possibly a landing marker (for landing boats) or maybe a concrete monument >claiming British ownership. Indeed, a large concrete monument was found >near the beach during TIGHAR's NIKU I expedition. I have a little trouble with Lambrecht decribing a flagpole as a "marker" rather than as a "flagpole." If Leith's flagpole was still standing in July , it was apparently gone by October when Maude and Bevington arrived. The concrete landing marker we found in 1989 doesn't appear in wartime aerial photos and appears to have been constructed quite late in the 1938-1963 colonial period. Kent speculates: >If Arundel's group had dug pits in the area, campfires for >lunch were probably also needed which logically ties both observations >together. Except that we found a fragment of a colored can label in the campfire that might date from 1937 but certainly not from 1892. There's no indication that Arundel's workers spent anytime on the part of the island where the bones and campfire were found. The remains and artifacts found in 1940 (and suspected at the time as being those of Amelia Earhart) were not a random scattering but were all part of a single scene which can not, in my opinion, be explained by either of the two known instances of previous habitation (ie. Arundel's workers n 1892 and the Norwich City survivors in 1929). Ric Gillespie TIGHAR ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:56:04 EST From: Craig Fuller Subject: search and rescue As to the statement that they were not waving at the planes from the Colorado ("they must have been incapable of signaling"), that is an assumption. Based on an experience of mine I know that people looking from a plane can easily miss you. I was surveying a crash site in rugged desert mountains, limited vegetation, but variable terrain. We (4 of us) were walking back from the crash site to our vehicle a mile away when a friend who knew we were going to be there buzzed us in his C-182. Despite the fact that he buzzed us four times, saw the wreck and our vehicle he and one other passenger who were looking for us never saw us on the ground. We were wearing normal clothes, blue jeans and T's, not camouflage. Craig Fuller TIGHAR # 1589C Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research AAIR www.sonic.net *************************************************************** More from Craig I thought this issue was resolved by the number of pilots who wrote in on how hard it is to spot downed aircraft. I guess not, though I thought the CAP training exercise with the T-33 crash was pretty good . I have flown over many (100+) crash sites here in the US. Some you can spot from miles away, others only when the sun is right, some never. One in particular comes to mind. A P-38 in northern CA, rolling grass hills with oak trees. I spent eight years looking for it and countless hours flying over the general area. I finally found a hunter who took me there. The largest piece was a wing which on a P-38 is by no means small, plus numerous pieces 4+ feet square in size. After having been there on the ground I flew over it again. It absolutely could not be seen from the air because of several large oak trees. Another example is the UC-78 that crashed on Mount Graham in AZ on 28 December 1943. Despite being fairly complete and not spread out, it was not found until April 1974 with the pilots still in it. Now how many air searches for missing aircraft had been conducted in that area in 30 years? I can't give a number, but a lot! The UC-78 came almost straight down in pine trees that helped hide it, but not dense tropical jungle. I have been to other sites where it was cloudy, and the wreck blended right in with the ground. Bare aluminum looks light white rock (or sand) and engines look like dark boulders. Moral of the story: It is easy to miss a crash site or plane for a number of reasons even if you are looking for it, especially to someone who has not seen a crash site before and is used to seeing planes parked neatly at an airport. Craig Fuller TIGHAR #1589C Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research AAIR www.sonic.net *************************************************************** From Tom King, Project Archaeologist One addition to Ric's response to Mike Ruiz on this one: not only is it adventurous, to say the least, to state categorically that the plane couldn't have been there because the Colorado pilots didn't see it (for the reasons Ric gives and because arguments based on negative data are inherently suspect), but it also doesn't mean much that Lambrecht & Co. didn't see AE and FN out waving their hats on the beach. The island is not easy to run around on, and there's no particular reason to assume that Amelia and Fred, even if in tip- top condition, were lounging around on the beach waiting for an airplane to show up. They could well have been back in the bush seeking food, water, or some other survival necessity, and simply not made it into the clear in time to be seen. And even if they did make it into the clear, it's not necessarily easy to spot a human figure against the complicated lights and shadows of a well-vegetated coral island. Tom King ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:59:24 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: USS Colorado too bad none of the enterprising press reporters of that day thought to make any effort at a follow-up interview with lambrecht, in fact i wonder why mr. putnam himself never seemed interested in following-up on the only observation of any "habitation" on islands that were thought to be previously uninhabited? it is indeed frustrating (60+ years later) to try & piece together a mystery where there are so many "missing parts", which could have been so easilly uncovered if the original investigation had been conducted with the same degree of detail & due-dilligence as the one currently being pursued by the TIGHAR GROUP now! don n. **************************************************************** From Ric Actually, GP was not at all satisfied with the search and spent years encouraging efforts to look at more islands and to look more closely. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:04:03 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: USS Colorado Hi, Ric: Over the years I have heard stories of some sort of "distress siganls" being received from the Electra for several days after the disappearance. I imagine you have already thoroughly researched this, and was wondering what your conclusions are as to whether this is true or not (obviously, if true, it supports a landing of some sort and not a crashing and sinking at sea). Also, in another response on the Colorado you mentioned there were [two?]reasons, other than fuel consumption, why the vessel broke off the search. Are you in a position to say what the reasons were? Thanks for your time! --Chris Kennedy **************************************************************** From Ric We've studied the subject of the post-loss radio transmissions in depth. Bottom line: it's impossible to say for sure, but a few are very hard to dimiss. See recent postings on the subject of the Colorado for the answers you're looking for. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:07:56 EST From: Tom King Subject: Historical guessing Re. Rebecca's point about "historical guessing" and speculation. Scientists have a hoity-toity name for guessing and speculation; it's called "hypothesis formulation." A famous (or so some infamous) archeologist named Binford once said that it didn't matter where you got your hypothesis -- from data or from a dream -- as long as it was testable. Which is another way of saying that there's nothing whatever wrong with guessing as long as you don't assume your guess is the truth, but instead find objective ways to test it. Every hypothesis has "test implications" -- in other words, what the real world ought to look like if the hypothesis is correct. You test the hypothesis by seeing if the real world really looks like your test implications say it should. And any research scientist worth her or his sodium chloride will tell you that when you ask the question: "Is hypothesis X valid," the answer 9 times out of 10 (or more often) is "Nope." That's par for the course, and it's been the way things have worked in the AE search. We generate a hypothesis, we generate its test implications, we go to the data to see if they conform to the implications, and a good deal of the time they don't. But that's OK; it helps us narrow the range of possibilities, and in the course of discrediting one hypothesis we usually stumble onto data that causes us to generate another, or to think of new test implications that hadn't occurred to us before. The test implications lead us to decide on what kinds of research to do; without them we'd just be wandering around in the bush, or the archives, or the photo labs, without the least idea what to do. The point in all this long-winded exposition is just that it's OK to guess; in fact, it's fundamental to research. We've just got to test our guesses, and be willing to discard them if they don't test out. Tom King ================================================================ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:58:23 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan Ric, My ISP has "shredded" some of my mail, so I'm not sure I got all of the last message.... But, do we know Fred Noonan's last place of residence? Also wanted to ask you: I believe I remember you saying you were also a pilot; in your opinon, where exactly on the reef do you suspect AE may have put down? Not having been there, I'm trying to visualize where she had room to land a craft that size. Thanks. Sandy #2110 *************************************************************** From Ric Not sure of Noonan's last place of residence but I have the impression that it was in the Burbank, CA area. His wife, Mary Bea, came to the airport to see him off when they left there on May 20, 1937. The reported location of the wreckage on the island suggests that the landing was made on the reef flat off the western end of the island. Today, the reef flat in that area is marginal at best in being smooth enough to accommodate a landing. We don't know what it may have been like 61 years ago. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:23:01 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: search & rescue Just a quick note on S&R procedures and the flyover from the Colorado. The USAF uses a Search & Rescue Probability of Detection (POD) chart that may be of interest. Flying at 1000' and using track spacing of 0.5 miles (the width of the island?), with 4+ mi visibility, and Moderate vegetation, the AF would assign a POD of only 60%. In heavy vegetation, the POD is 35%. At an altitude of 500', the POD actually goes down to 50%. Heavy vegetation and 500' gives a POD of 30%. Heavy veg, 500', and 2 mile visibility gives a POD of only 20% Heavy veg, 500', 2 mile vis, and a 1 mile track spacing is only 10% These POD's are for a trained crew of three, Pilot, Observer, and Scanner., three sets of eyes, not the single pair of a pilot. Given a single sweep of search aircraft (two passes, up one side and down the other) I think it is clear that if the A C was either in the water or in the vegetation, the odds are that AE and FN would not be spotted even by trained eyes. Given the Pilot's report of "recent habitation", it would seem to me that they were really remiss in their duties not to look more closely. The question always comes up " why didn't the search aircraft see them if they were there?" The POD says that for a single sweep, the odds are not great for spotting a lost aircraft, never mind a single and most likely immobile person. This is why multiple searches are conducted. Q?? What altitude did the searchers fly at? Any idea of what the visibility was? I presume it was good 4+, but it may not have been. Andrew McKenna T#1045 *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks. This is very interesting information. The USAF POD system sounds a bit like trying to quantify the unquatifiable, but it certainly provides experience-based concurrence for our feeling that the airplane and the people could have been there and simply not been seen by the Navy search. Visibility that day was 10 miles plus. Search altitude was probably not lower than 400 feet. Vegetation on the beach itself was non-existant. Beyond the beach, vegetation was heavy. Visibility of objects on the reef, with surf running over the flat, would probably be similar to heavy vegetation. There were two sets of eyeballs in each of the three planes. Time on site was quite limited and it appears that much of th time was focused on a particular area. The Colorado pilots were not trained in SAR. The purpose of the battleship's airplanes was scouting for other ships and adjusting the fire of the ships guns. The three planes in the flight had radio (morse code) communication with the ship, but probably did not have any form of communication among themselves except hand signals. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:29:17 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: coax cables A Loran station on Niku? I think we can forget the co-ax. I doubt very much that we could hope to establish that it predated the Loran station and, hence WOULD have come from the Electra. *************************************************************** From Ric Now why would you say that? The USCG Loran station was built in July September of 1944. There were no airplanes based there. If the kind of coax cable found in the village (other end of the island) is specifically an aviation product, and if it can be shown to be a pre-war specification, it would be very difficult to expain in the context of the Loran station. I can't think of anything, however, that would establish that it HAD to have come from Earhart's airplane. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:37:39 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Photos of Electra To anyone interested in seeing just what the Electra looked like... In some of the many books on Amelia and the attempted around the world flight are very good photos of Amelia, Fred, and others, and of the Electra. There are photos of the Electra with and without engine cowling in place. In some, the loop antenna that was of no use to them whatever when it might have been their salvation is clearly visible. The photos are usually on slick paper and quite good. There is also a web site: http://www.worldflight.org There is a photo gallery with some pictures of the Electra Linda Finch flew around the world last year following Amelia's route -- 60th anniversary of Amelia's attempt. This is said to be an Lockheed 10E. The pictures are rather small and there appear to be no larger versions available for downloading. ************************************************************* From Ric Finch's airplane (cn1015, the fifteenth Electra built) was delivered in 1935 as a 10A and, much later, had the larger R1340 engines installed while it was serving as an airliner in Brazil. Despite the hype, it is a converted 10A , not truly a 10E. With its T-6 cowlings, it doesn't even look like a 10E. (Just being nasty) ================================================================ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:40:54 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: USS Colorado Some possible reasons are: 1.) He is about to retire, the crew is full of "short-timers' or somesuch? 2.) Didn't want to put the USS Colorado in too close to any shoreline without trustworhty charts? Right? Wrong? Maybe? some of the above? none of the above? Regards Fred M. *************************************************************** From Ric Good guessin' there Fred! (Fred's post was actually submitted before the long expository posts by Russ and Randy.) ================================================================ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:45:05 EST From: Russ Matthews Subject: Earhart Books Just thought I'd ring in here with another friendly admonition to Warren about making pronouncements without checking the facts - in this case reviewing a book without reading it first. "Amelia Earhart Lives" is many things, but it is not another "she was shot by the Japanese theroy, " In fact, as the title implies, Klaas and Gervais proposed that AE was alive and well and living in New Jersey under an assumed name. The process by which they reached that conclusion is a hysterical exercise in twisted logic not equaled since the "witch" scene in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail." LTM Russ Matthews Member # 0509CE ================================================================ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:48:54 EST From: Russ Matthews Subject: USS Colorado One more factor I always like to keep in mind regarding the 1937 search is that the navy personnel at the time were not engaged in an historical investigation - it was a rescue. As Ric pointed out, their knowledge of the Phoenix Islands was incomplete at best. Short of an obvious sign like airplane wreck or signal fire, they could not afford to stop and check out every little thing. For all they knew, Earhart and Noonan might be waiting on the next island over. Remember that when Colorado reached the search area, the crew of NR16020 had been missing at the equator with little or no water for seven days. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:55:58 EST From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Colorado search As a new subscriber - just been listening to this thread for a week or so, and shortly to be a new member, I have just a few points / questions for ya Ric :- 1) I haven't actually seen this explicitly mentioned in any postings about landing sites on Gardner but assume you haven't over looked a trivial point:- has it actually been calculated that at the time of the theorized arrival in the vicinity / fuel exhaustion that low tide conditions existed ?? 2) Surely the most obvious way to draw attention to yourself on an island when you expect some sort of search to be made for you (even if you're not aware it's an air search) is to light a fire - as large as possible. There should have been no shortage of material to burn on the often drought stricken island - even perhaps a small amout of fuel remaining in the tanks. Even if they had no matches, a small piece of glass in that fierce heat would light a fire. Even what would seem a relatively smokeless fire at ground level would form a dark haze on the horizon visible for tens of miles over sea to people searching and looking for signs. Perhaps (speculation again!) a fire was made for just this purpose, and kept alight for some time, but by the 9th, A.E. & F.N. were too weak/ incapacitated/ dead to tend the fire and it died out. Ric - what sort of size were the camp fire remains that were found on the island ?? 3) Ditching an aircraft under any circumstances is a an extremely tricky operation - water is a very dense substance and doesn't like to be quickly displaced. Successful ditching relies on being able to skim and bounce on the surface down to a fairly low speed. Any tendancy for a surface - such as a wing - to dig into the water at any sort of non-trivial speed would probably result in it's immediate loss and perhaps a cartwheel, with catastrophic results. Next time you're in a pool, just try moving your hand fast through the water and feel the drag. Now imagine a wing with hundreds of times the area at at least 10-20 times the speed (i.e. 100-400 times the drag force, as force is proportional to speed squared) and you start to appreciate the forces involved. I'm supprised to hear that an actual documented Electra ditching took place, and that it took a whole 8 mins to sink. Must have been a good ditching - with the aircraft mainly intact. So here's the point - just my opinion - but I doubt that Amelia, excellent pilot that she doubtless was, was in any state after such a long flight, fatigued - with the attendant stesses of not being able to find land and, almost certainly not trained to ditch an aircraft - was able to perform a ditching to the degree required to leave the aircraft intact and able to float indefinitely. My thoughts are that if the Electra never made land fall and was forced to ditch, then it didn't float for long. Let's hope she made Gardner. Simon Ellwood ************************************************************** From Ric Campfire remains were tiny (about 18 inches across) and inland. Perhaps a small cooking fire, not a signal fire. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:03:30 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: search & rescue Are copies of Lambrecht's report in the Anthology book? And yes, they could have missed the plane and AE and FN running down the beach waving. ************************************************************** From Ric Not in the Anthology, no. It's in the Companion that we're updating. Tell you what Mike. You took such a beating on the search and rescue issue, and were so gracious in defeat, I'll just go ahead and send you a photocopy of the report. (But, please, don't everyone start asking for copies of stuff. We'll get these source materials accessible to everyone as soon as possible.) ================================================================ Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:08:59 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: search & rescue From The Electra No Land Club OK, we can agree to disagree. And yes, I have not been to Niku. Lived in Panama though, so have some appreciation for dense underbrush. The Funafati story was late 50's early 60's? With the High Commands interest (via the telegrams) + Gallagher's knowledge of AE/ FN issue, you would think he would have searched the island. Hundreds of people have been on the island, but only one account of plane wreckage, no? As far as we know, none of the islanders reported to any of Gallagher's replacements this wreckage? My TIGHAR Tracks have long vanished to co-workers (my grandkids will never see them), but don't I re-call a whole lot of exploration on the island. Weren't towers erected all over the place for surveys, and lagoon soundings conducted, coconut plantings etc.? Before Loran stations are put up and the island checked for possible aircraft use, weren't extensive photos taken, lots of looking around etc. etc. Yet, no one saw plane wreckage (that we know of). TIGHAR Tracks laid out a very detailed chronology of the activity Niku has seen. I just think the plane is in the lagoon, a/ o reef, a/o ocean because someone would have seen something. Signed, the Electra No Land Club ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:41:54 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Engine I posted some more questions for you a couple of days ago about the engine. I have not seen a response. Did you get it, or should I ask again? Don Jordan (#2109) ************************************************************** From Ric I think I answered them yesterday, I think. If not, ask again. I'm dancin' as fast as I can. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:02:21 EST From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Responding to Rebecca Although Tom King responded to Rebecca's comments on "...guessing is equivalent to speculation." I would like to add a quick thought. Hypothesizing what happened to Amelia and Fred and what course of action they may have taken provides us with direction for our searching for clues. The clues may or may not confirm our original hypothesis and generally they lead to either a new or at least a modified hypothesis. Without the sense of direction we get from some reasonable guess about the events that occurred we stumble aimlessly missing many small elements to lead to a final solution. The final solution may never be found but if it is found it will, almost certainly, occur because there were attempts to think through all the possibilities and them eliminate those which prove themselves impossible and prove those that are probable. If identifiable parts of the Electra are eventually found on Nikumaroro or human remains of Amelia or Fred can be found and identified we will have an answer, not a hypothesis. Dick Pingrey *************************************************************** From Barbara Wiley Yes, it is ok to guess, speculate. It is not ok to discard within the genre and it is particularly pompous, as Shakespeare said, to try to evaluate yesterday's actions by today's values. Amelia's time was different than now, her accomplishments were beyond wildest expectations then, the memory of her contribution to our lives need not be forgotten. *************************************************************** From Ric I'm not sure what you mean by "discard within the genre." If a hypothesis has been shown to be preposterous (i.e. Secret Agent Amelia) it belongs in the trash bin. "Evaluating yesterday's actions by today's values" is another tricky one (but where did Shakespeare say that?). As we've so often said in this project, context is everything. Some values, however, are timeless. The slave trade cannot be excused because people just didn't know any better. On a less cosmic scale, publicity stunts were publicity stunts in 1937 just as they are in 1998. I'm not at all sure that Earhart's accomplishments were "beyond wildest expectations" in her time and her "contributions to our lives" are inspirational rather than practical (not to minimize the importance of inspiration). I'm being admittedly picky here only because I think that a reverential approach to the problem of discovering Earhart's fate is unrealistic and counterproductive. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:12:02 EST From: Barbara Wiley Subject: Noonan's navigation In 1989, I had the pleasure of meeting with Gen. J. Dolittle @ his Carmel home. He prefaced our 45 minute + visit with, "I know she was a dammed good pilot. A lot of people say she was not, but she was the best". He also said he did not know a thing about what happened to her out there. When I suggested a tale of intrigue, international political and military involvement he said, "I don't know if it is true, Barbara, but it would make a hell of a movie!" Technical, scientific investigation balanced with the interesting cronologic and geographic parallels of so many of "the theories" makes for fascinating copy and could serve to further the interest in the history of the woman, the event to spark courage and productivity for the future. *************************************************************** From Barbara on Preponderence of Evidence The kicker is when you begin to match up the "possible scenarios" there is an uncanny thread in all. It is particularly interesting to see that many of the conflicting theories, put into a time sequence could all have occurred. ************************************************************ From Ric Say what? ************************************************************* From Barbara on Historians Come on, let's call it what it is....the devotee... ************************************************************** From Ric I dunno. Devotee sounds kind of obsessive. I'll stick with historical guesser. *************************************************************** From Barbara on Badly Researched Earhart Books Try to find a copy of Meyers, Stand By To Die, interesting stuff, really opened up Pandora's box in the A.E. genre. Also, don't let anyone think that writing an "Earhart book" is profitable, I can site hundreds who study, read, write, and think endlessly on the subject just for the fun of it.....doesn't that sound familiar? ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:14:03 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Aircraft on Niku? One of our most critical questions is whether or not the remains of Amelia's Electra are on Niku. If there is a substantial portion of any aircraft on Niku, it seems to me that it should be possible to find it. The problem is to be able to see through the foliage. Dense as it may be, I suspect it may be possible to see a sizable piece of aluminum through the trees. I suspect a form of airborn radar could do it. With enough power at the right frequency, I'll bet you could get specular reflection from something like part of an aircraft wing despite the trees and general over-growth. A lot of energy would be absorbed, both ways, but not all. You wouldn't be out do do anything fancy, just detect a stronger return from certain places. It might require a pretty careful survey to identify places thay gave a strong return relative to "average" terrain. I'm inclined to suggest a relatively low-frequency signal (not up in the microwave region) to get some of it through the foliage. Power? I have no Idea. I'm envisioning something not unlike the old WWII vintage radar altimeter. It operated at about 400 mc with a transmitted power of less than 1/2 watt. It would work up to about 5,000 feet. Today, we can easily produce 10 or 100 times that power We're not concerned with FM-ing the signal to get altitude data, just to measure and record reflected signal strentgh while flying some sort of search pattern at low altitude. You could also get those aerial photos you still don't have! Maybe photography are the right wavelength would show something in the vegetation to hrlp confirm targets. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:21:48 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Tracking Noonan Maybe this is nothing new and maybe validity is questionable. One or more of the books indicate that Fred was married, perhaps more than once. As I recall, the last marriage took place very shortly before the final around-the-world attempt -- sometime in 1937. I don't recall if the place was indicated. If this is correct information, it might be a good place to start in the search for Fred Noonan -- Marriage records, perhaps divorce records as well. If you think it worthwhile, I'll try to find the reference. It's either the Doris L. Rich book, or the one by Loomis and Ethell. ************************************************************** From Ric Fred married Mary Beatrice Passadori around the time of the first world flight attempt. She died in 1978. Chasing Mary Bea isn't going to help, but marriage / divorce records might help establish Fred's place of birth. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:37:42 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Phone from Lae ric: regarding the paul mantz quote recorded in the hamilton,ohio newspaper article, is it possible that a.e. had some "private" phone or telegraph communication with putnam while she was at lae (there several days), which was never revealed to the public? (especially in view of her several references to "personnel" problems she was experiencing, perhaps she may have sent such a "private" message to putnam to further elaborate on the "problem", which she may not have wished to be publicizied. (it does seem interesting that mantz mentioned a specific amount of water (3-gallons) & not just a general statement that they had "some emergency water on board'. don n. sandon@webtv.net **************************************************************** From Ric Gore Vidal has alleged that he was witness to just such a telephone conversation between Putnam in NY and Earhart in Lae. Trouble is, Putnam was in San Francisco at the time and there was no telphone service from Lae. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:38:28 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: USS Colorado aircraft Sounds like a cover-up to me. *************************************************************** From Warren Since the subject has generated so much interest a small suggestion. (If some of the more experienced heads all ready have the answer stop me here) While much of the key information on AE's case is difficult to come by we have an opportunity to lets some of us ordinary folks contribute to the database. The hard to come by information would be: Location of the USS Colorado at the time Fred Goerner over flew the island Goerners flight plan and the other island he over flew. (We'll have to turn to the experts for help there) What an ordinary subscriber could contribute would be to visit a good library and find out: Type seaplanes carried by USS Colorado circa 1937? Range and performance figures for said aircraft? Was aircraft single seat or did it carry an observer? Other information about the aircraft (in particular reliability) Logic of these questions: I'm trying to avoid making assumptions. However there would be a considerable difference between an aircraft with a large margin of fuel and a dedicated observer watching the island below, and a single pilot, trying to fly and look at the same time, in an aircraft of shaky reputation, short on fuel making a pass over the island. I don't know if either scenario is correct. So I suggest that we collect a few technical facts to put the "search" over the island in perspective. No military pilot will admit that he gave it anything short of his best effort. But that effort may have been tempered by a variety of factors beyond his control. I'm on the road so I was forced to try to research this question on the web. No luck after 2 hours. I'll try to run this down in a real library next week if no one else has any success. When the answer just requires a bit of legwork I think so of us ordinary folks can kick in for the cause. Just a suggestion. Warr en ************************************************************** From Ric As you correctly guessed, we researched all that in depth about nine year s ago. At this point, I feel like I could probably check-out in an O3U-3 with about 30 minutes of dual. Forum subscribers would do well to remember that we have spent ten years examining most of the issues under discussion. That certainly doesn't mean that we've found out everything we want to know - far from it - but we do feel like we have a good handle on the obvious stuff. Some forum subscribers who have joined TIGHAR (like Sandy tracking Noonan relatives and Mike chasing satellite imagery) are carrying out current research projects. Most subscribers and subscriber members (not only Mike and Sandy, but Warren and Rebecca and Vern, and many others) serve as a valuable check on whether our hypotheses seem credible and our evidence supports our conclusions. We're always looking for new information, but at this point in the investigation, new information is coming from obscure archives, not public libraries. Please don't take this as a put down. Warrens instincts about what kind of information is required to assess the problem are excellent. It's just that we've been there and done that. ************************************************************** From Jim Cain, TIGHAR 1415 The story about the RNZAF P-3 Orion is sort of interesting. Any thoughts about approaching the New Zealand authorities about help in getting to or actually searching Niku ? They are an established entity in that region of the globe anyway with the resources and logistics support for the job. From what I've read in the forum, the barrier of red-tape prevents the use of U.S. government resources for Niku research. Possibly one of the government entities in that area of the world would have more flexibility and be inclined to help out?? After all AE & FN did visit New Guinea, Australia, etc. Jim Cain - Tighar member 1415 ************************************************************* From Ric Good thought, Jim. I'll look into it. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:38:36 EST From: Tom King Subject: Where to land? Re. Ric to Sandy on the most likely landing place: let's be clear that there are two competing hypotheses here. One has the landing take place on the reef flat off the western end of the island, the land called Nutiran. This is based on the reported existence of aircraft wreckage there in the 1950s, and the corroborative airphoto data. Trouble is, if they landed there, it doesn't account for the bones being found on the land called Aukaraime, a mile or better to the east. The other proposition is that they landed at Aukaraime, where there's a fairly level dry land area that's overwashed by storm events and as a result relatively clear of vegetation, pointed more or less into the prevailing winds and according to the pilots among us (of whom I'm not one) long enough to land an Electra on. This would account for the "campsite" with the bones being where it apparently was, but it doesn't account for the wreckage on the Nutiran reef. The variant on the hypothesis that accounts for both things has one or more of them (Earhart, leaving Fred dieing or dead on Aukaraime, to become Gallagher's skeleton?) taking off again, perhaps after the Colorado pilots miss them, trying to get up to send out a radio message that will be received, but crashing on the Nutiran reef instead. This is far too complicated for comfort, but it has the benefit of accounting for all the reported evidence. Of course, there are lots of other ways to account for the evidence -- like the bones are those of passing yachties or the plane wreckage is from another plane or -- or -- or..... Tom King ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:38:50 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Tracking Noonan If it will help in the search for Noonan, I believe his wife was from my area. Atwater, California is 5 mile from me. Don ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:33:29 EST From: Kris Tague Subject: Lady Be Good off topic but there is a very interesting book describing the groups "journeys" in their 3 rafts. It is called "We thought we heard the angels sing" . Rickenbacker also wrote a memoir of the incident and the contrasting viewpoints between pilot officer and the general are fascinating. A clear reminder of how differently two people can see the same thing. Kris Tague TIGHAR 0905CE ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:40:20 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Noonan's navigation ric: thanks for your response to my note. lacking any practical experience in aviation navigation, i wonder if you or any of the other members of the forum could comment on my question about the effect (if any) crossing the equitorial line might have had upon the navigational equipment on the electra, which might have created some variance (however slight) in a.e. following the correct heading she received from noonan? also in one of your responses, i recall you mentioning that you had a copy of laurence safford's unpublished manuscript:"flight into yesterday", would you tell me how i might obtain a copy of same? is it available through the smithsonian institute web addresses? what would the cost be ? thanks for all your help. don n. sandon@webtv.net **************************************************************** From Ric As I recall, Randy Jacobson addressed that issue a few days ago. The answer is no. No effect on navigational equipment. Human confusion due to crossing the date line is a possibility, but Noonan had done that before. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:42:51 EST From: Ric Subject: Safford's manuscript Oops. Forgot to reply to Don's question about Safford's unpublished manuscript. I'm not sure if the Smithsonian has it. Randy? Do you know? ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:17:18 EST From: Bob Sherman Subject: Fade Out As the sun slowly sinks in the west, we (hopefully) near the end of our fantasy trips with the Colorado, navigation, radios, search (sans rescue), and all the things that might have been, for a good nights sleep. Good Morning! It is a great new day. What can we add that may help to find more evidence on or near Niku that will tend to prove or disprove that AE & FN were there? Perhaps an outline of the problem by Ric will serve to focus the great amount of talent and experience that is out there. Respectfully, RC #941 ************************************************************* From Ric Thank you Bob. Outline follows. The hypothesis we are testing is: AE and FN reached Gardner Island and perished there. Having, through exhaustive archival research, established to our satisfaction that the hypothesis COULD be true, we are now focused on testing whether or not it IS true. To prove that hypothesis we need to find physical evidence that the events in question actually occurred. We may already have some such evidence (airplane parts, shoe parts, label fragment, etc.) and we need to continue to learn as much as we can about what we have. We also clearly need to find more physical evidence (the Canton engine, more airplane wreckage on Niku, bones, etc.). Existing or future imagery of the island, in whatever medium, may serve to assist in the location and recovery of physical evidence but is not, in itself, proof of anything. Anecdotal information can be useful in leading us to real evidence but, like imagery, does not in itself prove anything. Documentary evidence can satisfactorily establish that certain events occurred and can, like imagery and anecdotes, greatly facilitate the on-the-ground search. Ergo, if your offered posting does not concern some aspect of artifact identification, or the evaluation of imagery, anecdotal information or original source documents relating to the hypothesis - you're off topic. Lots of other Earhart chat, philosophizing, debate, speculation etc. is great fun and I won't say that we'll never indulge ourselves in a bit of that, but we're very much aware that reading this forum involves a time commitment on your part as well as moderating it does on ours. We want to make this forum as meaningful and productive and as worth your while as possible. Ric ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:27:06 EST From: Amanda Dunham Subject: Thermometer, broken Could the broken thermometer have been part of the "Flying Laboratory's" lab equipment? And speaking of incorrect assumptions, there is a color photo of Amelia. Check out: http://www.worldflight.org/youcansoar/amelia/photos3a.html Amanda ************************************************************** From Ric Except that there was no lab aboard the "Flying Laboratory." Some samples of air at altitude were taken during the trip by means of little bottles poked into the slipstream by propping the cabin door open. Other than that, the Electra was just an airplane with lots of fuel tanks. Amelia's idea of scientific research consisted mostly of keeping track of how tired she got and trying out different kinds of sunglasses. As for the color photo - POW! Got me. That's really neat. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:31:05 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: coax cables Re: Why give up on the co-ax cable? That kind of cable and connectors are typical of those used for all sorts of purposes associated with communications equipment and electronic stuff in general. The fact of possibly not being to government specs. by no means rules out its having been used in the Loran installation. Dating: Even if it can be established that the cable was made considerably before 1944, that doesn't mean a spool of it was not sitting in a warehouse somewhere and ended up in a 1944 installation. That was a time when one was not fussy, use whatever is available to get the job done. ************************************************************** From Ric Good point. Seems to me that the cables have very little potential for proving anything. Probably best not to spend time chasing them. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:32:46 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Radar Searching A search for aircraft remains on Niku by means of RF reflection would depend strongly on how well you could do it. Signal-to-noise ratio would be awful! You've probably seen something about the guy who supposedly finds buried dinosaur bones with a Geiger counter. The idea is that, over millions of years, some mechanism has resulted in a slight concentration of uranium in the bones. A number of people have tried to do this sort of thing with no particular success. Then this guy comes along with a rig on a cart he can pull along with a Geiger counter (or whatever detector) just above the ground. Some say they do, in fact, find bones where he says they are -- not just all over the place. If this is true, I think his success is largely due to very careful surveying. He lays out a close-spaced grid and surveys carefully taking time to get the best possible data. Then he maps the data looking for spots that show slightly higher count rates. Ideally, an RF reflectivity survey would involve repeated passes looking for places that averaged slightly higher reflected signal intensity. Clearly, this would require more cooperation from the weather than seems to have been your lot recently! ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:08:51 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: search & rescue Several points not previously discussed in terms of on-island reconnaissance. One, New Zealand survey team arrived in late 1938, and did a detailed topographic map (with the help of aerial photos) down to 1 foot elevations on the northern section of the island. Copies of the reports and maps have been obtained. The NZ'ers were there for about four months. Shortly thereafter, US survey parties of the USS Bushnell arrived, and did a similar mapping, and built several towers as control points. This information is also available (without the actual field notes, which are lost in the National Archives), and appears on the base map produced circa 1939. I've argued with Ric about the location of one of these control towers being reasonably close to the "shoe" location, and have suggested that perhaps many of these artifacts may date from the US survey in 1938/1939. Ric typically responds with there being a transvestite seaman (accounting for the woman's shoe). We also know of the 1940 expedition funded by Putnam by Capt. Johnson, who also landed on Gardner briefly. There were a few women on his yacht. Finally, British administrator Jones (from Hull) also landed on Gardner shortly before his landing on Hull in June, 1937 for one day. Jees, for an uninhabited island, it sure attracts a lot of visitors! Randy Jacobson, Tighar Member **************************************************************** From Ric True, the NZ survey party did a 1 foot contour map of Nutiran district. Does that mean that they walked every foot of that huge and densely overgrown area? Of course not. False, that the survey party was there for four months. They arrived December 1, 1938 and left on February 5, 1939. That's two months. True, that there may well have been some activity by the Bushnell survey party not far (about 50 meters) from where the shoe parts were found. False, that there is any realistic way to connect the Bushnell survey in November of 1939 with the shoes. Remember that the shoes, bones, can label, campfire, sextant box, Benedictine bottle, dead birds, and dead turtle found in 1940 are all part of one picture of a castaway who died, marooned on the island. If the Bushnell boys had left someone behind he could have simply taken up residence with the settlers who were already there by then. As for Capt. Johnson's alleged visit and lady friends, this is the first I've heard of it. As I recall, Johnson visited the Gilberts and collected the story about the folks on Tabituea hearing a plane flyover. What's your source for a visit to Gardner? I also need to see chapter and verse on your claim that Jonesy stopped at Gardner on the way to Hull. Burns Philp Ltd. (his employer) had no operations on Gardner and no intention of beginning one. I can think of no reason for him to stop there and recall no mention that he did. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:15:37 EST From: Gene Dangelo Subject: signs of habitation This might seem to be an incredibly stupid question, but I'm sure that it's neither the first nor the last such question ever to be asked by me, so here goes: Given all of the correspondence circa 1940 about the finding of artifacts (bones, sextant box, etc.), what ultimately became of the bones, who might have them now, and who would be the appropriate contact person for the location of same, so that the DNA work could be done? Also, has anyone seen the Canton engine LATELY? Lastly, what is the stall speed of a Lockheed Electra 10E utilizing the engines of Earhart's model? Not being a pilot myself, I can only guess that the minimum speed exceeding stall speed would be the slowest speed at which a gear-down landing could be attempted, wouldn't it? How would wet or dry sand bear up against tons of plane running into it at that speed? Could it support the plane as it landed, or would it snap the gear off and or flip the plane? Just curious. Thanks!--Gene Dangelo :) ************************************************************** From Ric Yes, of course we're doing our best to track down the bones (if they still exist). No, no one has seen the Canton engine lately. No, a landing on sand would not be necessary. The two sites we speculate that a landing may have occurred are both hard, flat coral. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:18:27 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: search & rescue Standard procedures for modern search and rescue by a flight of two military aircraft. (Based upon 6 SAR's onboard ABCCC & limited training to act as "King" the on the scene SAR coordinator until an HC-130 could be launched ... many years ago). One aircraft holds high while the other goes in low to take a look. High mans job is to watch out for his wingman. Make sure he doesn't fly too low or do something stupid ... (Like asking what type aircraft the USS Colorado carried. Failure to read NOTAMs and recent e-mail, guilty.) If the low aircraft makes an mistake and goes in during the low level run, the high aircraft marks the position, relays the location of the downed pilot and tries to get their story straight for the accident investigation board. (That last part is a joke. Military pilots would never do such a thing). I don't have any reference material that would support what type of procedures was in place in 1938. Common sense flying however wouldn't have all three aircraft going in low at the same time to take a look at the island. Does this help the discussion any? Warren (At great effort refraining from speculation) ************************************************************** From Ric No. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:20:31 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: coax cables Just in case I'm going to end up having made a fool of myself one more time... About the connectors on those pieces of co-ax -- I'm not able to relate to the "Jones Series 101" connector. Threw away too many old catalogs! Can someone tell me whether or not those connectors are generically the PL-259 plug or simply "UHF" connector? I've been assuming thats what they are from the description provided which is not very detailed. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:23:37 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Post-loss signals Since the subject came up just recently... I'm very curious about the claims that Amelia was heard after July 2nd. Those who say she could not possibly have been heard in the states from way out in the Pacific Ocean clearly have no acquaintance with amateur radio. Radio signals can "skip" in from great distances under some conditions. This is especially true at a time of maximal solar activity occurring on an 11-year cycle. At such times, it's not uncommon to hear a signal booming in so strongly that you figure it must be the guy next door. It turns out that he's on the other side of the world and only running 50 watts! It's very variable and you may not hear him long before it fades out. This does happen on the frequencies Amelia had available. I just checked and I find that 1937 was essentially at a peak of the 11-year solar activity cycle. It definitely could have happened. I suspect that radio amateurs would have been aware of the frequencies Amelia and Fred would be using. Those who make a hobby os short-wave listening probably were also. They were probably listening for Amelia from the time she left Burbank. A lot of those people had the best receivers and antennas available at the time. Is anything available on those reports of having heard Amelia after they were down? I think there was indication some of the people had been interviewed-- perhaps by TIGHAR? ************************************************************** From Ric I've talked to several people who claim to have heard messages at the time. Like all of the post-loss signals, they're fascinating but impossible to verify. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:26:47 EST From: David Kelly Subject: Thermometer, broken I have only just seen the note on the broken thermometer so forgive me if i ask something that has already been asked, however, it is possible that it may not be a thermometer but a barometer??? david kelly *************************************************************** From Ric Best guess so far is that it's a (busted) sling psychrometer. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:29:49 EST From: Per Axelsson Subject: Flares I'm sorry if i'm repeating someones question but didn't AE and FN have any flares or something like that? I noted that u Ric's comments (and about 2 million others) how difficult it is to spot people or planes from the air but a flare can't be too easy to miss. I mean if the island was circled by the navy, i suppose one can assume that AE & FN, if they were alive, would have noted an aircraft circling over them...or? Check's not in the mail but soon..:) Regrads Per Axelsson *************************************************************** From Ric The flare gun (heavy) was reportedly left in New Guinea. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:49:04 EST From: Clyde Miller Subject: Yet another book "Unsolved Mysteries of American History" has a chapter on AE. Rehashing all the old theories, however You and TIGHAR take up a couple of pages. The author's conclusions on the TIGHAR evidence is shortsighted and he places too much credit on the "Professional" pilot who overflew Gardner and saw no sign of AE and FN, especially in light of recent forum conversations referring to the difficulties of seach and rescue techniques .- He also Backs the Noonan was an alchoholic fired by Pan AM story. The main point I am trying to make is that the professional and tenacious efforts of TIGHAR are now becoming very much a part of the Amelia Earhart Story and that's a good thing. It is the only part of the story that consistently falls back on hard evidence concerning her disapperance and final disposition. Clyde Miller ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:11:35 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: Thermometer, broken "a (busted) sling psychrometer?" Was there ever a weather station there? Regards: Fred Madio *************************************************************** From Ric No, but it's not too hard to imagine that the guys doing the Bushnell survey in 1939 may have had such instruments with them. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:23:35 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Fade Out After reading through TIGHAR materials I still have several questions on two points: First, have you determined how much flying time remained after the final "running north-south..." communication from the aircraft? Also, it appears from the material that the weather at the time of the last transmission was not good. My point is, that if a significant amount of time would have elapsed between the time of the final, verified transmission and running out of fuel, isn't it to be expected that some sort of further communication would be received from the plane (even if it was that they were going down)? Further, if the weather was bad, might the plane have suffered a catastrophic event and gone down without an opportunity to get off a distress message? This could even have happened in good weather, and, since learning that AE was in communication with the Itasca until near the end, I have always wondered if something catastrophic ended the flight? Any thoughts? --Chris Kennedy ************************************************************** From Ric To quote a line from Cool Hand Luke, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." In my reply to Bob Sherman's Fade Out posting I attempted to explain why questions like the ones you ask above are off topic. I guess I failed miserably. Anyway, yes, we have determined how much fuel the airplane should have had at the time of the last transmission heard by Itasca. Roughly four hours. Communication was lost when Earhart changed frequencies from 3105 to 6210 khz. The loss of reception by Itasca was possibly due to the skip characteristics of 6210 khz. No, the weather was not bad at the time of the last transmission. The is no evidence (I know of) to indicate a catastrophic inflight event. C'mon folks. Let's stay on topic. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:25:03 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan FYI, I responded directly to Don on this. I've also got some inquiries out on names and record locations. He apparently didn't have a SS# and is also not listed in *that* death index. I also have someone checking the CA Death Index now and hope to hear from them in a day or two. If his last place of residence was CA and we knew the town, a review of those local newspapers might have a obit with revealing names and addresses to follow... regards aye, Sandy *************************************************************** From Ric I've come across some more information that may be of help. Back in 1989 a former team member did some research and came up with some information, but some of it looks pretty strange and I can't verify it's accuracy. Fred's second wife (no info on first wife) was supposedly born Mary Beatrice Passadori, married someone named Martinelli, then married Noonan, and finally married Harry B. Ireland of Santa Barbara. According to this research, she married Fred in March or April of 1937 in Honolulu, but that can't be right. Fred was only in Hono for a couple of days, arriving on Earhart's flight from Oakland on March 18th and leaving on the 20th after the accident. Until her death in 1978, Mary Bea lived at 126 E. Constance in Santa Barbara. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:37:03 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Psychrometer and Coax Ah, ha! The thermometer rises again! Is that what the little "hook" is? It goes though a hole in the mounting so the thermometer doesn't get slung out, huh? If Noonan was hanging out the door taking air samples, perhaps he was also checking humidity. He would scarcely need to "sling" the thing but the whole device with wet- and dry-bulb thermometers would still be a reasonable thing to use. On Niku, they were using it to know how damn hot it was! With that tiny capillary, it's certainly not a barometer. ************************************************************** More from Vern about psychrometer and coax cables. Back again to the remote chance that the subject items might be "possible" ties to Amelia and Fred... Two questions: 1. Fred was taking air samples. Who were the samples for? Was some scientific organization involved? This might indicate whether they might also have had an interest in humidity data. The documentation doesn't say where the broken thermometer was found. Was it at the site of the campfire and the other stuff? 2. The description of the cables says: "The construction of the cables indicates aviation use..." Is there something about the cables that does, in fact, indicate aviation use and is in conflict with my earlier coments about the stuff being used for all sorts of things? I'm reluctant to give up on anything that's still really an open issue! *************************************************************** From Ric My recollection is that the point of the air samples was to find out what micro-organisms were present in the upper atmosphere. Amelia referred to the procedure as "catching bugs." I don't recall who she was doing this for. Can anybody help on this? Here's how the cable is constructed. Starting at the center, the conductor consists of 10 strands of tinned 10 gauge (.010 inch) wire twisted together into a cable .030 inch in diameter and wrapped with cotton cloth. This assembly is sheathed in rubber insulation with an outside diameter of .1780 inch which is, in turn, covered with woven shielding made of braided tinned copper wire so that the shielding has an external diameter of .2010 inch. Over this is a final layer of rubber insulation with an external diameter of .2950 inch. This construction is consistent with 70 or 72 ohm coaxial cable generally used in aircraft for antenna lead-ins for receivers. It is not normally used for transmitters because the insulation is not sufficient to withstand sustained R.F. energy. It is my understanding that this type of construction is far more elaborate than would be expected for non-aviation use. Opinions? ================================================================ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:05:37 EST From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Wreck Photo & Ric bio Any interesting new leads on the Wreck Photo recently ? If you're still open to input & comments on the photo, I have a few points to make - most of them negative I'm afraid. I guess you'll have heard most of them before from Photek, but every new detail found through different people's objective analysis counts. From your comment "I feel like I could probably check-out in an O3U-3 with about 30 minutes of dual" , are you a G.A. pilot too ? Looking forward to receiving my mebership stuff. Simon Ellwood *************************************************************** From Ric Yes, we're still working on the wreck photo. Fire away. Yes, I'm a pilot. Mini-bio follows: My dad flew B-17s during the war (447th Bomb Group, Rattlesden, East Anglia) and owned a succession of general aviation aircraft during the late 40s / early 50s (Piper Supercruiser, Luscombe Silvaire, Republic Seabee), so I grew up (or rather, failed to grow up) around airplanes. I soloed at 16 and worked my way through university flying charters, pumping gas, washing airplanes and making bad coffee at the local airport. At the time I went into the U.S. Army in 1970, I was flying an ancient, badly-maintained DC-3 for a semi-pro ice hockey team. Going into the military at the height of the Viet Nam War made life considerably safer. When I was commissioned, I turned down the Army's generous offer to teach me to fly green helicopters in exchange for an additional three years tacked on to my obligation. Through a combination of great good fortune and a keen sense of self preservation, I did not go to Viet Nam. I served my time as a communications officer with the 1st Cavalry at Fort Hood, Texas and got out in 1972. I went to work for National Aviation Underwriters as a flying Risk Manager (read insurance salesman) and accident investigator. In 1980 I accepted a position as Asst. VP for Aviation at Bayley, Martin & Fay (a large insurance broker in Philadelphia). In 1984 I left the aviation insurance world in disgust over what it and the legal profession were doing to the general aviation industry in the U.S. (cold blooded murder) and, in 1985, with my wife Pat Thrasher, co-founded TIGHAR. Now I seem to spend a lot more time on boats than in airplanes. I'm not sure how that happened. I love airplanes. I hate boats. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:13:35 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan I'll put this in my file. You never known what little clue will help out later. I assume that he had no children?! Will keep you informed. Sandy **************************************************************** From Ric None that we know of. Good luck. **************************************************************** From Don Jordan I did a little research on Fred's wife as she was from my area. The very first phone call I made was to a Mrs Rose Passadori in Atwater, CA. She said she was 95 years old yesterday and to talk loud. I asked her if she was related to a Mary B. Passadori. She said "yes". She was her sister-in-law. She talked a mile a minute. I said I was trying to find out some information on Mary's husband Fred. Before I could say anymore, she said "Oh yes that Newman guy (sp) I met him, but you know they weren't married very long. He went on an airplane ride and got lost" Her words!!! AE was not mentioned at all. She talked about how they met on a boat and how she used to go visit them in Santa Barbara. Said she went to her funeral, but can't remember where. She also said to give her a week to think about it and call her back. Maybe something else will come to mind. I'll let you know if I can get any more information Don Jordan (#2109) *************************************************************** From Ric What a great story! Maybe that should be Fred's epitaph. "He went on an airplane ride and got lost." Met on a boat? Married in March or April 1937? Sounds like they may have met on the Malolo on the way back from Honolulu after the accident. This is getting very interesting. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:56:42 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Where to land? I too am concerned about the discrepencies about the artifact locations as Tom King mentions.. The only reasonable possibility (considering my background in oceanography!) is that the long-shore currents swept the wreckage to the north. This hypothesis is ameliorated by the Norwich City wreckage strewn in all directions. ************************************************************** From Ric Sorry to unameliorate your hypothesis, but the Norwich City wreckage is not strewn in all directions. Stand on the wreck and you can clearly see that the debris is distributed in a fan-shaped pattern on a south-easterly heading toward the shoreline just north of the main lagoon passage. That's hardly surprising, given that the big storms come out of the northwest. The only Norwich City debris we've found outside that arc has been a largish tank along the lagoon shore on the southwestern part of the island, which evidently floated through the passage. For wreckage near the southern lagoon inlet (Bauareke Passage) to travel westward along the shoreline, turn the corner northwestward, and then turn the corner again and travel back northeastward to the Nutiran shore seems incredibly migratory. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:28:02 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Whose bones? Okay, Okay, I was a little loose on the time duration of the Kiwi's. As for Capt. Johnson's visit, apparently I mispoke. He did visit the Phoenix Islands, but here is what he said: "On the way down from Honolulu we also searched in the Phoenix Group, but did not call at several inhabited islands including Hull. Three years ago these islands were not inhabited, but since then they have had a very bad drought in the southern Gilbert Islands and over 1000 of the natives have been transported to the Phoenix Group in order to relieve the food situation. This means that several government officers as well as these hundreds of natives have been in the Phoenix Group. This also means that schooners have crisscrossed many times between the Gilbert Islands and the Phoenix Islands within the last two years." I never meant to imply Bushnell personnel were left behind, but that the men were stationed on the island (i.e. camping overnight) for about two weeks. It is possible that many of the artifacts may be due to their visit. Obviously, any bones found were not due to the Bushnell personnel. Perhaps the stocky 5'5" person was from the Norwich City? As for our good friend Jones, the information is detailed in a cruise report by Richard Black late in 1937 when he and others from the Territories and Island Possessions branch of the Interior visited Hull, and this information was relayed to them from Jones. "Mr Jones told us of the wreck of the "Morwich City" lying on Gardner Island. She struct in 1919, and the "Makoa" saw her recently and stated there was much good material aboard her such as anchors, winches, etc. The bodies of nine men lost in the wreck, drowned or killed by sharks (he said) were buried ashore, but wild pigs [sic] dug them up and their skeletons now lie on the beach. The survivors were taken off the island." Since the Makoa was wrecked upon his arrival at Hull in June, 1937, Jones either had first hand knowledge of Gardner or the captain of the boat was there previously, and gave that information to Jones. I posit that a good hypothesis is that what the Makoa saw regarding bones may well be what Gallagher and the Gilbertese saw as well. Unfortunately, there is no information as to where along the island the Makoa saw the skeletons. *************************************************************** From Ric So Capt. Johnson did not, apparently, call at Gardner - it being, at that time (1940) inhabited. I don't recall what time of year he made his trip but it might have been very interesting if he had put in at Gardner looking for news of Earhart about the time Gallagher was boxing up bones he thought might be Amelia's. This story seems to be rife with near misses. The information Jonesy passed along to Black is very interesting. He has the wreck date of Norwich City wrong (she went aground in 1929, not 1919), but that's no big deal. More remarkable is the allegation that the bones of the nine men lie on the beach, having been dug up by wild pigs. Eleven men were lost in the wreck. Three bodies washed up and were buried by the survivors. If pigs (domestic probably, feral maybe, wild not) did dig up the bodies and scatter the bones it's possible that three guys might look like nine, or more likely, Jones had heard that nine men were lost and made the assumption that all were buried. The notion that what the Makoa saw is what Gallagher saw is hard for me to accept. Gallagher finds one partial skeleton inland from the lagoon shore two miles from the Norwich City wreck and 100 feet above the high water line. It is one element in a whole scene which strongly suggests that this was a castaway who perished at his make-shift campsite. When queried by the authorities, Gallagher is adamant that this scene is not associated with the shipwreck. Jones describes lots and lots of bones out on a beach which he (or someone) associates with the shipwreck. I think that its much more likely that he saw just what he thought he saw, although they were the remains of fewer men. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:52:02 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Engine I will repeat here my comments on the Kanton Engine. I guess I pushed the wrong button and you didn't get it... I asked about the engine found on the reef as to it's condition. You replied, "The engine had no propeller, no mount, no accessories, no wiring harness and several cylinder heads were broken off. This was one beat up engine. Waves can remove things from an engine a lot faster than the world's quickest mechanic". I agree with you about what the waves can do. I also think that the engine should be found and the serial number checked. That's the only way to be sure if it came from the Electra. However, how could the waves remove a propeller hub? Bend it, break it maybe, but remove it....I don't thinks so. If I were going to discard an old worn out or damaged engine, those are the things I would most likely remove for future use before tossing it over the side. What do you think???? Don Jordan (#2109) **************************************************************** From Ric Good point. How do you end up with no hub? Break the shaft? Whew! How do you do that? If the engine is still on the plane, seems like the mounts would fail before the shaft would break. If the engine is already off the plane, the mass of the engine by itself seems insufficient as a resisting force that would cause the shaft to break. On the other hand, if this is AE's engine it has been kicking around on that reef for 34 years in 1971. That's plenty of time, in that environment, for the steel shaft to turn to reddish-brown powder while the aluminum prop might hold up somewhat better. On the other hand, if somebody decided that they wanted to use an old airplane engine for an anchor or a mooring point they would certainly want to remove all that stuff, just as you say. The big question, out on any of those islands, is where the heck anybody would get a small, nine-cylinder, single- row radial to use as an anchor, paperweight, or whatever. Good questions. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:13:25 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan Came across this today. Thought you might be interested, (if you haven't already seen it!). It provides quite a few leads to follow up. What makes it "credible" data, to me is that it's dated July 3, 1937... What do you think? Can we suppose he served in US Navy during WWI ? Hmmm.... Sandy #2110 Fred Noonan Adventurous Master Pilot Oakland, Calif. July 2 _ (AP) _ Fred Noonan, 44, master mariner on the sea and in the air, graduated from the old white-winged square riggers of Atlantic and Pacific sea lanes to the great monoplanes of the airways. Twenty-two years of ocean travel as a navigator preceded his lengthy servce as a flyer. Seven times he rounded Cape Horn _ three times in wind-jammers before compeltion of the Panama Canal. He went to sea at the age of 15. Three of his ships were torpedoed in the World War. Noonan was instructor of aerial navigation for several transport companies. In 1930 he joined Pan-American Airways in Miami. He served as transport pilot; later as airport manager at Port Au Prince; as travelling inspector and as instructor. He came to Oakland in 1935. He was a navigator of the first clipper ships pioneering the route from Oakland to Honolulu. He resigned after this service had been launched. Noonan was educated in Chicago public schools, in a private military academy in Illinois, and attended London Nautical College. Last March he married Mary Marginella of Oakland. He participated in a number of rescues at sea. In one, five French soldiers adrift at sea on an ice floe were saved. Another time the crew of a Portuguese fishing boat was rescued after the craft sank. From The Hartford Courant, July 3, 1937 ************************************************************** From Ric Good work Sandy! This seems to be where a lot of stories we've heard about Noonan come from. Accuracy is another question. For example, Mary Bea's name before she married Noonan was apparently Martinelli, not Marginella. No, I doubt that Noonan was in the navy. So does the navy. It seems more likely that he was in the merchant marine during WWI. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:19:24 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan This is fantastic! Good work, Don! Keep in touch with her. I've found in doing genealogy, little old people *LOVE* to talk! See if she would sit down with you and be "interviewed", bring a little tape-recorder, (a genealogist's best friend!). What is curious, though is that an article from a Conn. newspaper, dated July 1937, said Fred married a Mary Marginella of Oakland, in March. I'm presently trying to follow up with their sources\references. Interesting, indeed.... SAndy #2110 *************************************************************** From Ric Here's how I think it goes: She was born Mary Beatrice Passadori. Married a guy named Martinelli. He either died or they were divorced. She married Fred immediately following the failed first world flight attempt. Ahe married Harry Ireland after Fred went for an airplane ride and got lost. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:32:08 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan Aye.., what a tangled web we weave.... All in all, though, it still doesn't connect us with any female blood relatives. But knowing who he lived with and where they lived can possibly lead us to other family members, (of his). In your other post, you said the navy wouldn't claim him; but maybe the Merchant Marine..., have you looked for that record, or should I? I know TIGHAR has done so much investigating and just don't want to be redundant. I am trying to get to the library sometime this week and check 1900, 1910, 1920 Federal Census, (CA & IL) for sisters. But wouldn't a daughter of his brothers also be a source for m-DNA? Tracing the female line is a wee bit more difficult! Sandy **************************************************************** From Ric We have not looked for Fred in the Merchant Marine or the Federal Census. By all means, go for it. As to whether a daughter of a brother works for mDNA, I don't know. Can anybody help us here? *************************************************************** From Randy Jacobson I've seen references in books to the fact that Noonan was in the British Navy, but I agree, that it is more likely the merchant marines, either English or American. Some have said FN was in the US Navy Reserves. I have checked all Navy records regarding reservists since 1920, and Noonan does not appear. Considering the amount of historical work done on Earhart, hardly any has been done on this poor soul. After all, he pioneered marine aviation navigation! ************************************************************* From Don Jordan Rose Passadori did say that Mary B. married a Harry Ireland after Fred "Got lost". Her memories of Mary would most likely be that of her and Harry and not her and Fred. Since they were married for such a short time. But...she instantly knew of Fred when I mentioned him. She called him "That Newman Guy". Sandy...your idea of an interview with a tape recorder is in the works. Maybe next week. Don't want to wait too long. She is 95. What specific questions, other than the obvious, should I ask? I think it would be a good idea to try and locate Harry Ireland now also. Or at least his relatives. Somebody has all of Mary's old things. Maybe some old letters from Fred, if Harry wasn't a jealous man. Don Jordan (#2109) *************************************************************** From Ric Don Jordan called me last night with news of a (possibly) very significant lead he has developed. I won't steal his thunder. He should know more early next week. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:33:46 EST From: Amanda Dunham Subject: Catching Bugs My copy of "Last Flight" is in storage, but I have a vague memory that Amelia was "catching bugs" for somebody at Purdue. Another possibility, and this is pure guessing, of course: she was doing a favor for one of her weatherman friends. I believe she got Atlantic data from Doc Kimball in New York. I don't know who she consulted in L.A. / Burbank. I think Purdue is far more likely; afterall, they paid for the airplane. Amanda ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:54:40 EST From: Ann Subject: publications In a real effort to avoid using up your time,patience,and good nature with my endless questions I'm in the process of ordering Earhart project publications. In addition to the Earhart Project Historical Investigation report and the project anthology should I also request the project companion or is this being updated?I'd appreciate any suggestions you may have for my studying up on the subject. Thank you, Ann#2101 ************************************************************** From Ric Bless you heart. The anthology is your best bet for right now. The Project Book (official title: The Earhart Project - An Historical Investigation) and the Companion are being updated. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:12:59 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Kanton Engine I'm not sure I understood what you were saying about the propeller hub. I assumed from your post that there was no propeller, and therefore, no hub. Was the crankshaft intact? Where there open holes where the starter and generator went? I think what I am trying to figure out is, did someone remove these things after it somehow appeared on whatever island it was on. If so, where did they find it? Could it be the missing engine from the "Wreck Photo" Also did her plane have two generator or one? Most twins have two. One on each engine (as you know). If her's had only one, what engine was it on? The wreck photo was missing the starboard engine. If AE's plane only had one generator, and it was on the port engine and if this engine was from her plane, then there would not be a "Hole" for the generator or it was plugged. I'm not sure I'm making any sense here, but do you follow my logic at all??? Also...We don't even know for sure what island the engine was found on. Can we somehow get the name of the pilot from Bruce, or any information from him that would lead to the flight plan for that day? Nobody would go flying around the South Pacific without filing a flight plan. If it is her engine...and it wasn't found on Niku...we are in trouble!!!! Don Jordan (#2109) **************************************************************** From Ric Good questions but, unfortunately, hard to answer. Remember that Bruce recovered the engine in 1971 as a casual lark. His recollections today are understandably spotty and he has been very forthright in specifying ewhat he remembers and what he doesn't. My understanding is that about all he can say for sure is that there was no prop on the engine. Bruce does not recall the name of the pilot but he is now doing research to try and find whatever records survive which may produce that name and possibly even a flight log. (Bruce, ol' buddy, feel free to jump in and comment on this.) Sure, Bruce's engine could be the missing engine from the infamous Wreck Photo. During the 1937 search, in response to speculation that the airplane was afloat somewhere and calling for help, someone (exactly who was not specified) who was familar with the airplane's layout insisted that, for the airplane to be transmitting, it had to be on land and able to operate the right hand engine. We can only surmise that this was because only the starboard engine had a generator. That strikes us as odd, but there it is. If Bruce's engine is one of Amelia's and it didn't come from Niku we're not "in trouble." We're interested only in finding out what realy happened. If the Nikumaroro hypothesis is wrong, that's fine. If Amelia's engine was found on some other island, we'll be on our way there faster than you can say, "Ooops!" ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:22:38 EST From: Tom King Subject: Response to No Land Club To relieve poor Dancin' Ric of a little of the load, I'll try to respond to Mike Ruiz' latest: Mike Says: With the High Commands interest (via the telegrams) + Gallagher's knowledge of AE / FN issue, you would think he would have searched the island. Response: Well, he DID search the vicinity of the location where the skull had been found, and there found the rest of the bones, the bottle, the turtle and bird bones, the sextant box, etc. etc. Given that he had a number of other things to do (like administer the colony), I don't know why he would have felt motivated to search further. Mike says: Hundreds of people have been on the island, but only one account of plane wreckage, no? As far as we know, none of the islanders reported to any of Gallagher's replacements this wreckage? Response: Gallagher didn't have a replacement until after the War -- long after the bones, etc. were found. As far as we know, no one reported any aircraft parts discoveries to him. We also have no evidence (at present) that finds of aircraft pieces were reported to any authorities during the 1950s or '60s. If they were, the records are most likely in the Kiribati National Archives on Tarawa, a place we badly want to go look. Mike says: My TIGHAR Tracks have long vanished to co-workers (my grandkids will never see them), but don't I re-call a whole lot of exploration on the island. Weren't towers erected all over the place for surveys, and lagoon soundings conducted, coconut plantings etc.? Before Loran stations are put up and the island checked for possible aircraft use, weren't extensive photos taken / lots of looking around etc. etc. Response: Well, there was the New Zealand survey in '38, which involved pretty detailed mapping, depth soundings, etc., and didn't report any airplanes, dead bodies, etc. Then over the next ten years or so, much of the island was cleared for coconuts. It was apparently during one of the clearing episodes that the bones were found. What might have been found during the War years we just don't know, because there wasn't an organized, full-time administrative presence to whom a report could be made. And then we're up into the '50s, when we're told that airplane parts WERE seen. There were quite a few airphotos taken, and some of those taken during the period when people reported finding stuff on the reef DO show something that could represent wreckage, as has been repeatedly discussed in this forum. Mike says: Yet, no one saw plane wreckage (that we know of). Response: Somebody obviously DID see plane wreckage, and brought it to the village, since we find it all over the place. Most of it, at least, isn't from Earhart's plane, but it's thought-provoking to note that we don't have any record of ANY of it being reported to anyone. And in the 1950s, we DO have oral accounts of people finding such wreckage, but only when stimulated to report it by TIGHAR's interviews on Funafuti. Mike says: TIGHAR Tracks laid out a very detailed chronology of the activity Niku has seen. Response: Yup. And we're steadily refining it. Mike says: I just think the plane is in the lagoon, a/o reef, a/o ocean because someone would have seen something. Response: I just think it's cabled to the starboard nacelle of the Starship Voyager. Seriously, what you seem to be assuming is that the failure of one of the colonists to seek out a colonial administrator and report the discovery of aircraft wreckage, and the failure of that report to survive and / or surface in what we've searched so far, means that nobody ever saw anything. We didn't think there was evidence of anybody finding bones until quite recently; there's no telling what will turn up in the next archive we're able to get into. But there's also no particular reason I know of to think that the colonists would have reported aircraft wreckage if they had found it, assuming they could find someone to report it to. The colonists were many things, but Earhart afficianados is not one of them. Tom King ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Tom. *************************************************************** From Jerry If you would like to divert this to the leading proponent of the "no land", that is fine with me. Has anyone calculated the bouyancy of the AE aircraft with empty tanks? It seems like some simple calculations ought to give some idea if the craft would float, knowing the volume of the tanks, how much fuel was remaining, the density of the fuel and the weight of the aircraft. Some assumptions would probablly be necessary. I would be willing to attempt this if you and others thought it would be time well spent. jerry #2113 **************************************************************** From Ric In 1991, when we were planning our sonar survey of the waters surrounding the island, Oceaneering International calculated the the airplane, assuming empty tanks, as being 1,200 pounds buoyant. (7,000 empty weight versus 1,151 U.S. gallons of air in 12 separate tanks) The big question would be how the integrity of the tanks would hold up. They were never intended as flotation devices. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:36:36 EST From: Tom King Subject: Tin roofs and "recent habitation" I'd like to expand a bit on a point that Kenton Spading made awhile back. Kent noted, with regard to Lambrecht, that: "(I)t is not too hard to imagine that he saw the corrugated tin roofs of the huts and other debris left behind by the Arundel group 40+ years earlier. The tin roofs might have seemed "recent" to Lambrecht as opposed to the much older masonry structures he may have have seen on other islands ( McKean Island??" For the benefit of Forum readers who haven't been there -- McKean Island is virtually devoid of vegetation, and has a number of quite impressive stone structures on it, constructed by Guano miners in (as close as we've been able to determine) about the 1860s. The structures are very obvious, and obviously old. Hull and Sydney Island have prehistoric structures, which probably aren't as obvious (we haven't been there, so can't be sure) but might have been visible to the Colorado pilots. So Kent makes an excellent point, I think. When Lambrecht says "recent' he may not mean "last week" or "last month," but "not decades or centuries old," and when he says "habitation" he may mean real full-time residence, not just camping out. This is purely speculative, of course, but it would account for why he gave the "signs" such short shrift. Tom King **************************************************************** From Ric Whatever Lambrecht saw caused him to expect that "repeated circling and zooming" might bring current residents out onto the beach to wave. If Arundel's huts were collapsed, as they were not long after this, it is hard for me to see Lambrecht reacting as he did. Years later, when asked by Fred Goerner to describe what he had seen on Gardner, Lambrecht supposedly said, "Markers of some kind." So did he see the corrugated tin roofs of the collapsed huts as "markers?" And, if so, would these logically cause him to think that someone was home? ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:41:03 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Ric's Bio Ric, thanks for the bio....... Love DC-3's, the best of the best....... ************************************************************** From Ric Don't get me started about -3s or we'll never find Amelia. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:50:26 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Research resources Here is some info I found on the web from the SF Museum regarding Coast Guard radio listening efforts www.sfmuseum.org/hist6/amelia2.html Probably you have all this, but I thought I'd send it for you to glance through (there is even a link to TIGHAR). Check six, -jerry *************************************************************** From Ric I'm passing this along to the forum. Interesting site with some excellent links. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:53:58 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Coax With one exception, the detailed description of the cable sounds exactly like virtually every coaxial cable I've ever seen. The exception is the stranded center conductor. That's not real common. I can believe a stranded center conductor might be favored in aircraft applications because it's less subject to breakage with repeated flexing. It might also stand up better under vibration. I'm not sure how strong a case can be made of that. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:55:29 EST From: Tom King Subject: Fire on Niku Further response to Simon about fire on Niku. There's certainly plenty of fuel there now, in the form of coconut fronds and husks, which we burned with great ease when we were on the island overnight. In '37 these would have been a lot rarer, and nonexistent at Aukaraime, where the bones apparently were found, but there should have been plenty of other kinds of wood. I don't know how smoky a fire this would have made. And whether such a fire would have left anything that the Colorado pilots would have interpreted as a sign of recent habitation would depend on where the fire was built -- on the beach where it could wash away before they flew over, or someplace more stable. Something that would be worth some experimentation, next time on the island (or on a similar island with the right kinds of wood). Tom King ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:56:44 EST From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Coax To answer Vern's question on coax cable plugs. Having seen the cable in question personaly I can say they were not PL-259 plugs. Being a Ham myself I use that type now. I have also questioned the fact that it is an Antanna coax for two reasons 1. It seemed to be of small diameter. Early coax for antanna's were of a very large diameter. 2. It was very short, something we would use for a jumper between radio and power meter, or radio and amplifier. My belief and it is opinion is that it could actually be a mic.or speaker coax. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:11:58 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: AE's radio procedure dick & ric: doesn't it strike you as odd that a.e. never made any mention of a forced landing or ditching in any of the radio transmissions, before or after she was determined to have run out of fuel? nor does she mention sighting any landfall, in fact there are no other "confirmed" radio contacts from her after the last recorded contact on the itasca log, in which it would seem she was still airborne, yet not giving any clue as to just how critical her fuel situation was nor any attempt to "stay-on-the-air" longer so as to give itasca a better opportunity to gain a "fix" on her position. i have always been puzzled by the fact that a.e.'s radio transmissions were of such short duration, particularly when she "knew" she must be in close proximity to howland. given fact that she was not "well trained" in emergency radio procedures, it would still seem the exercise of simple common sense (which she did seem to possess) would dictate that the longer one stayed on the air, the better chance of having someone at howland obtain the needed "fix" on her position to bring her home. another point to be made, since we all seem to be in agreement that noonan was not drunk or hung-over ( at that stage of the flight anyway ) & since it has been reported he'd been torpedoed and sunk several times as a merchant seaman during wwi, he would certainly have realized the critical importance of maintaining radio contact until the very last moment (of course the relationship beteen the two of them by that point may have become so "strained" that input from noonan might not have been all that welcome) ************************************************************** From Ric Lots of "would haves" going on here. Let's remember that Itasca stopped hearing Earhart when she changed frequencies. There is no indication that she stopped transmitting, just that they stopped hearing her. The fact that the last transmissions received made no mention of an imminent ditching might indicate that the fuel situation was as we have argued (about 3 hours remaining) rather than the critical situation postulated by the crashed-and- sank school. Earhart's failure to make long transmissions might be explained by an incident which occurred during the Oakland/Honolulu flight in March. On that occassion, when approaching Hawaii, Harry Manning made a long transmission to enable Pan Am to take a bearing. The transmitter promptly failed. Earhart and company beleived that the long transmission had burned out the generator. In fact, it only blew a fuse (as was established later on the ground). The point is, Amelia got it into her head that a long transmission could blow your transmitter. Speculating in the absence of any information whatsoever about possible tensions in the cockpit strikes me as pointless. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:43:41 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Weather randy: thanks for the input on equitorial magnetic anomalies (or the lack thereof) & the report of people in the gilbert's "hearing" the earhart plane fly over. we'll never know what was taking place in that plane during the flight (she never reported any problems on the "air" during the flight), yet knowing exactly what caused her to fly off course would make the job of determining where her plane ultimately landed a much easier task. from the scant "weather" info she supplied in the radio communications recorded, she was experiencing : "cloudy overcast" conditions, which the itasca log reports was observed to the north northwest of the anchorage at howland, while weather to the south southeast of that position was described as:"clear sunny". somehow, she managed to fly "past" howland, without "seeing" same, from her northerly positon, in order to reach the phoenix chain, where we all seem to agree she ultimately came down. *************************************************************** From Ric Can't resist shooting down another Earhart myth. Chief Radioman Bellart's original radio log shows the entry for 0345 as: EARHART HEARD FONE WILL LISSEN ON HOUR AND HALF ON 3105 - SEZ SHE Later, when this entry appears in Commander Thompson's official report it has changed to: Heard Earhart on phone. (ITASCA from Earhart - ITASCA from Earhart --- OVERCAST - WILL LISTEN ON HOUR AND HALF HOUR ON 3105) When Earhart researcher Elgen Long interviewed Bellarts on April 11, 1973 and asked him about this discrepancy, Bellarts said that the only remark Earhart ever made about the weather was her 0453 comment "PARTLY CLOUDY." He also said that at 0345 he was the only one wearing headphones and the speakers were not being used, so nobody could have heard anything other than what he heard. It would appear that Earhart never said "OVERCAST" and that the word's inclusion in the radio transcript was an embellishment added by Thompson. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:55:23 EST From: Ann Subject: catching bugs (and Noonan) In a recent forum posting one of the members mentioned Last Flight and reference to catching bugs.Having my copy near by,I too did a little searching and found the following. (P.77, Orion Books, paperback)...."...Fred goes back to catch a bug....the creature to be caught was a micro-organism of the upper air. Fred C.Meier of the Department of Agriculture equipped me with a 'sky hook"similar to that carried by Colonel Lindbergh in his 1933 Greenland flight.This is a device to obtain in flight samples of air content which are then preserved in sealed aluminum cylinders for microscopic laboratory examination later....." Additionally in the chapter headed THE SOUTH ATLANTIC,on p.65 of the edition I have,can be found the following:"It's all a matter of comparison,"Fred assured me."We're impatient about a day's delay.....back in 1910 I was on the bark CROMPTON which was then the largest square-rigged ship under the English flag....."Perhaps this can help some with the tracing of Noonan's records.Just a thought.Ann *************************************************************** From Ric Good work, Ann. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:01:52 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: search and rescue As i recall, landing catapult launched seaplanes at sea was a hazardous venture at best, especially close into any island with the type of "surf" that gardner appeared to have been surrounded, in fact lambrecht took a real chance even landing in the lagoon at hull, given the "bird" hazard as well as the possibility of ripping-up his float on any submerged coral. by the way, i've been re-reading through some of the "popular" books on this subject, in order to see if there is any further info to be gleaned or additional "links" that might be explored, that i might have missed on my first reading. in klass' book "amelia lives" i noted some "frames" allegedly taken from u.s.navy 16mm film, supposedly released by the navy after the conclusion of their "search", showing scenes off "hull" island, which were taken by planes from the u.s.s. colorado. judging from the angle shot, it appears whoever was responsible for taking these films had to be flying at "wave-top" level. any idea whether these films are bonofide or just another example of the "artistic license" taken by writers of popular books, to reinforce their scenarios? don neumann ************************************************************** From Ric At-sea recovery of floatplanes was indeed a hairy procedure that could not be accomplished close-in to any land mass as it generally involved making a big sweeping turn with the ship to create a calm area for landing. I've often wondered about that alleged film. We haven't been able to find it in the National Archives (where it should be) and there is no mention in any of the reports of motion picture film having been taken during the search. On the other hand, there is no mention of still photos being taken either and we have one of Gardner taken that same day. Wouldn't it be great to find film of the signs of recent habitiation at Gardner? ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:06:45 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Noonan's navigation mike; lest we be too harsh in our judgement of brother noonan's navigational skills on ae.'s last flight, remember he only provided the course to be followed, it was earhart who was reponsible for actully flying such course & recalling how she countermanded noonan's directions as they approached the coast of africa (putting them several hundred miles off course), who can say that the same thing didn't occur on this occasion? *************************************************************** From Ric It's myth-debunking time again. After examining the original charts, with notations, that Noonan used on the Atlantic crossing, Randy Jacobson has deciphered what apparently really happened - and it ain't what got published in Last Flight. Over to you Randy..... ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:16:23 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: signs of habitiation ric: could lambrecht's comment about "signs of habitation" include wheel tracks of the heavy electra, from the beach to the shade trees, where it had been "taxied"? sorry, just speculating! don neumann ************************************************************** From Ric In theory, sure. But the sand on the beach is usually quite soft and deep. I'd be surprised if the Electra could taxi there at all. However, down in Aukaraime district where we think a landing could have been made, it's not sand at all but hard-packed coral rubble - chunks of coral about the size and shape of a severed human thumb (but not at all squishy). I think I'd better stop now. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:28:45 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Thunder Is Bruce on-line??? Would sure like to hear from him. Also, what I meant about "Being in trouble" is, Niku IIII would be in trouble. But Manra I, or Mckean I, or Orono I might be in order. And, I don't mind you posting our conversation on the Forum. I have no thunder...We have thunder....Maybe. Don Jordan (#2109) ************************************************************** From Ric Okay, so Don goes to this local person (sorry, I'm going to withhold the name for right now) and asks if he knew Mary Bea. The guy says, "Sure, she was my aunt." Don explains why he's interested and the guy responds, "I've been looking for you for a long time. I have a whole bunch of stuff pertaining to Uncle Fred and I've never known what to do with it. I got it from Paul Mantz who was a friend of Aunt Mary's. I need to check with my attorney first, but let's meet next Monday, and you should be sitting down." The preceding is my paraphrasing. Stay tuned for the next exciting episode. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:36:17 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Book I came across this book in a B&N catalog... Have you seen it? Is it worth the purchase? Thanks. Sandy #2110 Amelia Earhart: Lost Legend: Compilation of Accounts by Specific Island Witnesses of the... Donald Moyer Wilson David Mancini(Illustrator) Russell Reynolds(Illustrator) Pub. Price $12.95 Regular discounting not available on this title. ISBN#: 096377770X Publisher: Enigma Press Format: Paperback Publication Date: March 1994 *************************************************************** From Ric Don Wilson has taken all, or at least a great many, of the various anecdotal accounts of the lady flyer with the short hair who was captured by the Japanese and put them all in one place - his book. The only real question is what to do with the book. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:56:56 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Revisionism: The Coast of Africa Don Neumann wrote: > mike; lest we be too harsh in our judgement of brother noonan's > navigational skills on ae.'s last flight, remember he only provided the > course to be followed, it was earhart who was reponsible for actully > flying such course & recalling how she countermanded noonan's directions > as they approached the coast of africa (putting them several hundred > miles off course), who can say that the same thing didn't occur on this > occasion? Hmm. Where to start? First, there are only a few points marked on the map in the middle of the Atlantic, and some don't make sense. As AE and FN approached Africa (to the south of the intended track), Fred lays out his line of position (taken from the sun), and propagates it to the east until it reaches Dakar. He believes (correctly) he is south of Dakar, and passes the note to AE saying at 3:36 change to 36 degrees [magnetic]. I estimate this time to be 79 miles from Dakar roughly SSW. Their heading is approximately 80 degrees true, so a change to 36 degrees magnetic (20 degrees true = sun-line of position = 020 / 200 degrees). When AE changes course to 36 degrees magnetic (this is a left turn to the north, by the way), they encounter fog along the coast, and don't know that they are now over land. Proceeding further, they find the fog lifting, and lo and behold, they are flying from the land to the sea! Dakar is situated on a point of land jutting out into the Atlantic, and the land bends to the NE and to the SE on the north and south, respectively, at an angle greater than 20 degrees true. So, it is clear from a map of Africa that FN misjudged his dead-reckoning advance way back in the Atlantic by about 10 miles or so (he's previously stated that 10 miles is about the level of accuracy), and if the weather had been clear, they would have passed about 10 miles east of Dakar. Well, what to do now? It is approaching sunset, there is thick fog to the south, and St. Louis just to the north with a landing field. AE puts her reply on the note "what put us north?" (meaning, why did we end up north of Dakar), and followed the coast to St. Louis. Meanwhile, FN erases his lines on the chart (but not completely!), and back-calculates where he really was, based upon his determination of where he ended up along the coast as he had AE fly his LOP at 20 degrees. Everyone, and I mean everyone! assumes that the 36 degree course change is a turn to the south, when just a simple look at a chart would indicate this is a turn to the north. Apparently everyone believes what is written in Last Flight. This is what is written by AE and published in the NY Herald: "When we first sighted the African coast thick haze prevailed. My navigator, Captain Fred Noonan indicated that we should turn south. Had we done so a few minutes would have brought us to Dakar. But a "left turn" [quotes original] seemed to me more attractive, and fifty miles of flying along the coast brought us here". What did AE mean by a left turn? I don't know (it definitely should have been a right turn of about 20 more degrees to 040), but her use of quotes suggests something unusual. Note too, that FN correctly diagnosed the situation, and AE acknowledges this. The quotation above also appears in Last Flight, with quotations intact. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:21:08 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Advice from Mr. Stripple I basically agree with you, but it's astounding how many people come up with an "answer" without reading and digesting even the most basic references. Start with the daily newspapers, then read the Navy and C.G. reports. Then there are several important books one must read, such as Nanyo and a couple of the more recent definitive works on the Pacific War. I have a bibliography if you're interested. One at a time, please. Dick Strippel PS. READ THESE AND YOU 'LL IMMEDIATELY SEE WHY MOST THINKING INDIVIDUALS DISAGREE WITH THE GREAT GOD RIC. *************************************************************** Note from Ric Personal attacks and insults are only posted on this forum if they are directed against me. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:11:04 EST From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Kanton Engine Don wanted to know if I was on line? Don I have not missed one post. I will try and fill all in on what I know about the engine I have located and retrieved. First you need to know I was on the build up team for Samtec thus meaning there were not many rules as yet and the operation was running very loose, if I can use that term. It always seemed if someone wanted to fly we went. I am not sure there were any flight plans as such at that time, mainly that we had left for a given destination and when we were expected to return. Long flights were always made with two helo's, one for the work detail and the other for rescue if needed. We would take cargo and workers to the other sites. Sometimes to other islands for, I suppose, some kind of research. Normally on long flights when we arrived at the destination all we (flight crew) had to do was scout around and look for glass fishing balls that may have washed up on the shore. It at times got purely boring out there as Samtec had not set up entertainment or R & R distractions as yet. Therefore, one made or found his own. This is how the engine came to be retrieved. As we were flying off of an island I sat in the cargo door and watched the beach and coral reefs go by under the helo. One could always see large sharks and stingrays swimming from time to time. One day we were leaving and I saw this engine on the coral reef. I talked the pilot into retrieving it and we all agreed (pilots thought I was nuts) so we slung the engine under the helo for the return to Canton. We made an approach from the north east direction so others (managers) would not see that we had brought cargo back and what it was. It did not however take long for them to ask where I had gotten that engine. To this day I had thought I retrieved it from Gardner Island. Only Tighar has been able to cause me to think I could be wrong because I never remembered a distinct land mark had I got it there. The fact is I did get it from one of the islands. Condition of the engine; The engine was placed alongside our hangar where our work occurred when not flying. I would tinker with it from time to time. It was very corroded and the top cylinder heads (those that stuck out of the water on the reef) had corroded away. the cylinders were there and coral sand was impacted into the cylinders. I could not dislodge it easily. I suspect that the chemical residue of corroding aluminum mixed with the sand turned it into a concrete type substance. Bolts that were attempted to be turned were frozen and shoulders where corroded to the point you could not get a good bite with a wrench. I recall there being a hole in the case and I could see gears. The crankshaft is a blur at this point except I recall there being items attached (definitely not a prop but could have been the remains of the hub). I do not recall an engine mount or if the accessories were removed or corroded away The one thing I do know, I had the engine sitting on what was left of the cylinders and it sat up without needing to be propped up with shoring. This means there were items sticking off of the engine to prop it up. To get an Idea what I mean try balancing a quarter on edge and you will see what I mean. Mags, generators, starters would or should have been corroded to the point of coming off of the engine during wave action of the ocean. All of these Items have aluminum mounting faces and once they corroded there is nothing left to hold them on. I got bored very soon with the engine as I was a young man and my attention span was the length of the excitement. I could, however, watch the World Airways stewdesses stand on the ramp for hours trying to determine what they were wearing or not wearing and after 10 minutes they normally were not wearing much in our eyes. Ok, a 2 star General was to do some kind of inspection and the boss wanted the area cleaned up for that inspection so I was told to hide the engine. Well, totally bored with it, I took it to a salvage area and dumped it. You may say, " Why?" I did not have much interest in history or A.E. At that time I was a young man trying to start his family and that had occupied most of my time. I did not learn of TIGHAR until I saw an article in the paper about their expedition to Gardner. (Early) the paper talked about the islands and that caught my interest in TIGHAR and I discovered she may have went down there. I then remembered the engine and its size. It struck me, would TIGHAR like to know about it? I tried to find them but soon lost interest. Lady Finch's flight brought out another story and at the end of the article TIGHAR was mentioned again. This time I had the internet and could not find them but I did get an e-mail address from Purdue Universty's Library. The rest is history to this point. I spelled and named islands as I knew them to be during that time. I will be happy to respond to any questions one might have. I have kept this as short as possible and left out as many irrelevant details. Keep in mind, my initial interview for TIGHAR took three to four hours of dialog so in writing this I have left out the small verbiage. Love To Mother Kung Butai Bruce A. Yoho *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Bruce. That's an excellent summation. For the forum: "Love to mother" is the traditional sign-off for the Earhart Project research team (as explained in an earlier posting). Kung Butai is a Gilbertese expression of greeting and camaraderie that has become popular with the team. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:14:44 EST From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Weather I believe in Tighar's written works there is mention of the weather report, as to winds aloft that A.E. received before take off and after the flight ended there was an issue that the winds were stronger than what she was given. If my asumption is correct this does help explain why they would be south of Baker island some where on their intended lop. Would reciting that help the discussion of off course. Bruce ************************************************************** From Ric The issue of winds and what they really were versus what Earhart/Noonan expected has often been used to explain various theories. Randy...can you speak to this? ================================================================ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:17:42 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: The Coast of Africa Don: Ok, I revise my opinion. Tom: According to TIGHAR Tracks, Gallagher & Bevington were aware there was a $2000 reward put up for info on AE's fate, that's a possible motivator. If the villagers found aircraft wreckage, they put it to local use (they had modern tools I understand). And when they left, I understand they took everything they could, including roof thatching. If there was a school on the island that means kids, and kids means exploring............I think they would have found the plane, if it was there. And once they found it, the Lockheed became the Special Phoenix Island Line of dinnerware....... The thought of the Lockheed being cabled to the Starship Voyager is interesting...... Ric: Had some discussions with the Spot folks, we conclude spending $5k or so per picture isn't worth it, Spot resolution at this point does not appear to be of use. We continue to look. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:25:12 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Re: Advice from Mr. Strippel You and TIGHAR have conducted a fantastic effort contributing to history. I look forward to meeting you and many of the other TIGHAR members in person someday. Signed, a thinking (well, sometimes) individual who agrees with Ric & Co. (on most things) PS- Most of the other thinking folks on my end agree with you too. *************************************************************** From Russ Matthews, TIGHAR 0509CE I'd like a chance to reply to this posting since being a bona-fide deity, the GREAT GOD RIC may not wish to concern himself with these earthly matters. Better to read a few words from me than be hit with a thunderbolt from on high, right? Seriously folks, I think the only appropriate response to Mr. Stripple's posting is that it is WAY off-topic. It was stated at the beginning (and several times since) that the purpose of this Forum is to further research into TIGHAR's hypothesis that the Earhart flight ended at Gardner / Nikumaroro Island. That doesn't mean that you have to agree with everything TIGHAR says - far from it. We are after the truth here. If the truth is that we have part (or even all) of the story wrong, then so be it. Every piece of the puzzle we can add OR discard contributes to our over all understanding. Just be sure that you have a specific point to make and be prepared to back it up with solid evidence. On a more personal note - as someone who holds a B.A. in History (Davidson College, 1991) and has read EXTENSIVELY about Amelia Earhart, I consider myself a "thinking individual." As such, I AGREE with the TIGHAR hypothesis. I must also say that I feel my GREAT FRIEND RIC would be the first to admit that this hypothesis represents the cumulative work of numerous dedicated TIGHAR members and not just his own. ************************************************************** From Ric You're darned right. I'm not about to take all the blame for this myself. ================================================================ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:31:30 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: mDNA Just about the only thing I've learned about mitochondrial DNA at this point is that it is passed on ONLY by the female. Whatever one can figure out from that about who we need to find. Ric.... Why are we on mitochondrial DNA rather then just DNA? ************************************************************** From Ric We can not reasonably expect to get anything but mDNA from old bones. Now, if we could just get the CIA to release her embalmed body..... ================================================================ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:56:27 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: coax cables and rubber unisex heels, etc --dick **************************************************************** From Ric Dick is right. Heels of the sort found on the island are "unisex" in that they were used on both men's and women's shoes. If a heel was all we had we would not be justified in saying that we have the remains of a woman's shoe. However, the nail holes in the heel perfectly match the nail holes in the shoe sole found beside it. The tight spacing and pattern of the stitching holes present in the sole enabled the Biltrite Company to identify the shoe as a woman's blucher oxford. A brass shoelace eyelet found nearby is (according to Biltrite) too small to accommodate a man's shoelace and is almost certainly from a woman's shoe. In addition to this physical evidence collected by TIGHAR, other shoe remains found at what appears to be the same site in 1940 are described by Gallagher as being those of a "woman's stout walking shoe" (pretty good description of a blucher oxford). In a recent posting, Dick cautioned against making decisions about what happened "without reading and digesting the most basic references." Full descriptions of the artifacts found on the island are available on TIGHAR's website at www.tighar.org ================================================================ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:19:15 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Engine THIS MAY BE THE FIRST AND ONLY REAL CLUE RIC HAS COME ACROSS! ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT THE AVIATION/WWII WORLD KNOWS OF THE B-25 THAT CRASHED ON TAKEOFF FROM KANTON/CANTON. YOUR COMMENTS, RIC??????? *************************************************************** From Ric Not being as well informed as the Aviation/WWII World, I haven't yet seen any documentation on the B-25 alleged to have crashed on takeoff from Canton. I am aware of, and have seen photos of, a Lockheed PV-1 Ventura which crashed on takeoff there. I've also seen the paperwork on a Consolidated B-24J (44-41029) which went into the water just off Canton shortly after takeoff on 19 July 1944. In addition, there was a Lockheed Constellation operated by the FAA that crashed at Canton in 1961 with five fatalities. Other aircraft were probably lost at Canton Island, including one or more B-25s. All of the above are irrelevant to the question of the engine reportedly recovered and then discarded by Bruce Yoho. That engine came from a different island and is reported to have been a very different kind of engine than those used on the aircraft mentioned above. So far, the only aircraft loss we know of at an island in the Phoenix Group other than Canton is what seems to have been a B-24D lost at Sydney Island. We have photos taken in 1971 of two of the R-1830 14 cylinder twin-row radials from that wreck. They're in the jungle. Not on the reef. The engine Bruce recovered was a small, 9 cylinder, single-row radial in the shallow water of the reef flat. Bruse believes that it was a Pratt & Whitney R-1340. We know of no aircraft which served in the region which used such an engine. If we find such an engine on Kanton in the general location where Bruce remembers dumping it, it would seem logical to conclude that it is his engine. The question would then become, is it Amelia's? ================================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:49:54 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Re: Advice from Mr. Strippel Ric's not a God... Everyone knows, God is a woman! sjc ================================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:52:13 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: mDNA >Now, if we could just get the CIA to release her embalmed body..... Careful..., you might start something! I did a little review of my biochemistry and it seems that mDNA is only carried on the female gene, thus can only be passed on through the female line, (XY) Males are (YY). There are differences in DNA, as in where their are replicated\located, etc. rDNA (ribosomal), tDNA (transcriptase?), mDNA (mitochondrial).. Unfortunately, I don't have the knowledge of forensic biochemistry to go any further. I'll stop here before someone more learned embarrasses me. Sandy #2110 ================================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:57:53 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Tracking Noonan Somewhere it said she might be from Oakland, so I checked marriage certificate records for 1937. No dice. They were not married in Oakland area (Alameda county). Maybe SF or Santa Barbara or ? Check six, -jerry ================================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:02:54 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Engine For Bruce, Thanks for the information on the engine. Maybe if I could read your statement to TIGHAR, I wouldn't have to ask these questions. But I haven't , so I do. I only hope I'm not over stepping my bounds, being so new to TIGHAR and all. I guess someone will let me know if I am. Anyway...I think is is very important to identify the island you found that engine on. My questions here are for that purpose. You said "We all agreed and the pilots thought I was nuts" I'm sure some attempt has been made to identify the others on the Helo. Right? I know it was a long time ago, but I want to ask anyway, do you remember what the purpose of the flight was that day? You also said "We approached from the NE so nobody would see us" Do you have any idea which way you turned to approach from the NE? Do you remember about how long the flight was from engine pick up point to Kanton? Did you fly over, or see any other islands enroute? The cylinders that were broken, do you remember if they were top or bottom cylinders? ( Broken bottom cylinders could indicate a crash) When you first saw the engine, do you remember what side of the island it was on? If you saw it after leaving another island enroute to Kanton, it couldn't have been on Niku. I would think Niku was a destination island. There is nothing beyond it to be coming from. If I were flying over that much water, I think I would alter course a little to "Island hop" in case of emergency. Sounds like you and I are from the same area? Thanks for posting this Ric. Don Jordan (#2109) ================================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:05:56 EST From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Kanton Engine Thanks to Bruce Yoho for his great summation of his finding the engine - - excellent for us forum "late arrivals". Since Bruce was nice enough to invite questions - just a recap for us newbies (to test your memory Bruce!):- 1) Both the R-985 and R-1340 are visually very similar, the 1340 being slightly larger in diameter. Is there anything in particular that made you think it was a 1340 and not a 985 ? The 1340 has a distinctive metal tubular ring mounted around the base of the crankshaft "bell" housing, above the valve tappet guides. Any memory ? I suspect, though, that this ring would be quite vunerable to corrosion/sea action and may have been missing from the recovered engine if initially present at all (i.e. a 1340 and not a 985). Interesting to note that this ring is visible in the "Amelia sitting on L10E nose" photo on Worldflights web page at: http://www.worldflight.org/mediaae3.html Copy the picture to local and then boost the brightness & contrast and many engine details become apparent. 2) Any memory at all of an ID/serial no. plate on the front crankshaft "bell" housing ? Obviously you wouldn't have remembered the s/n (!!) itself or the recent Kanton trip wouldn't have been needed - just wondered if you had a memory of the plate on the bell housing. On a R-985's and R-1340's it's fairly prominently mounted. If the engine is recovered and this plate is missing due to perhaps corrosion, then is there any other way of identifying the engine (i.e. do any of the individual parts have a s/n cast or machined onto them) ? Better get in with the lingo:- Love To Mother Simon Ellwood ================================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:10:24 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Coax cable I can't seem to let go of that damn cable! Despit my earlier comments, based to some degree on misunderstandings (assumptions!), I'm back to thinking we might be able to do something with the cable. It probably will not be definitive, but we might be able to say it COULD have come from the Electra and that it's at least unlikely that it's of much more recent origin. Maybe we can say it probably did NOT arrive as late as 1944. But we'll never be sure of that. First, the connectors. Now that it has been pointed out that they are NOT the PL-259 "plugs" I assumed, I have to rethink things. My hands-on acquaintance with such things only goes back to about 1950. The Jones Series 101 connectors are unfamiliar to me -- or I just don't remember. I will be able to find out just what sort on connectors those are. I'll find some catalogs or some such that will have pictures. My present understanding it that it has been established that the connectors match what was on Amelia's radio equipment, whether Western Electric or Bendix. The fact that I don't remember these connectors causes me to wonder if there may have been a change in what was typically used sometime between 1937 and 1950. Maybe not too long after 1937?? Perhaps the PL-259 came to be more favored. I think that's a military designation which may not be significant. Question: Do we know whether or not there was any change in connectors used on aircraft radio equipment produced after 1937? Second, the cable. I continue to be troubled about the innermost insulation layer being characterized as "rubber." I don't believe I've seen anything other than polyethylene insulation in coaxial cable for radio frequency applications. Its excellent dielectric properties and resistance to moisture penetration make it the material of choice. My best information at present indicates that the first commercial production of polyethylene plastic began in Great Britain in 1941 and in the United States in 1943. That's cutting it pretty close. If it was available to them, the polyethylene insulated cable would have been preferred in the Loran stations. And it's what I would expect in aircraft radio equipment installed after about the mid 40s. If nobody is actively working on the insulation of the cable, I would be interested in examining a peice of the insulation. That's the only thing I can think of that I might do with it. I would like to assure myself what the material is. If you could send a small piece of it to me, I can determine what it is -- and stop fretting about it! A piece (an inch or so) of the inner insulation is all I would need. Your very complete description and dimensions pretty thoroughly define the overall construction of the cable. ************************************************************** From Ric What method would you use to identify the material? ================================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:18:03 EST From: Van Hunn Subject: Re: Advice from Mr. Strippel I agree completely with Russ in his response to the insulting remarks made by Strippel. My opinion is that personal attacks and insults have absolutely no place in the forum. In all my experience, I have never worked with a group of ladies and gentlemen that is more professional, honest and knowledgeable as TIGHAR members. This applies especially to RIC. VAN *************************************************************** From Ric Painful as it is for me, I must point out that not only is Mr. Strippel's remark off topic, but so are the many reactions to it. Let's get back to business. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:32:20 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Kanton Engine That engine was sure a mess even in 1970! And that was 28 years ago. With all the holes exposing gears etc. inside the crank-case, one wonders if any serial numbers still exist. But if so, and if Pratt & Whitney does have good records from that time, it could be the clincher. Since the team had neither the time nor equipment to dig for the engine, I guess I'm just impatient to know what options are being considered. It's a terrible way to conduct an archaeological dig, but I expect you've considered contracting with someone in the vicinity to try to dig up the engine. I think you would still have to have at least one TIGHAR person on the scene to be sure an honest effort was made to find the engine, and to take custody of it, if found. ************************************************************* From Ric We're naturally impatient to dig up that dump but the Kanton Yellow Pages didn't have any listings under Excavation. The only vehicle on the island that could support a backhoe is a small Kubota tractor. We're presently researching the specifics and expense of obtaining a backhoe that would fit it and then somehow getting the thing to Kanton. Rest assured that when the time comes to open up that dump it will be done under TIGHAR supervision. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:38:23 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Weather The factors of weather obviously enter into the equation of Earhart's last flight from Lae to wherever she ended up. There are two basic problems I've encountered with the weather reports: (1) the reports are few in number and most are only forecasts, and (2) we do not know if AE and FN adjusted their flight paths to accommodate wind directions. Further, we do not know which weather forecasts AE and FN had when they took off, but we can make some educated guesses. I (and some colleagues at Dan Wagner and Associates) wrote a computer program to simulate AE's flight using Monte Carlo techniques. What this does is create thousands of flight paths, each with a sampling from a statistical representation of the wind vectors at various points along the track at various times. We interpolated between points (for example, between the Ontario sea surface measurements and Howland upper air measurements). Further complicating things is that winds tend to veer and intensify from the sea surface as one moves higher up in the atmosphere. While preparing for this, I encountered a flaw in reasoning and logic, to wit: AE gives us position reports (barely), which indicates some aspect of winds. Her knowledge of weather is based upon what she was told prior to takeoff and what she experienced (deduced from navigational positions, etc.). Our knowledge of weather comes from reports and information that AE did not have at her disposal. One cannot combine these two datasets in any consistent manner, so I treated them separately. I ran flight paths calculated only from what AE knew and assuming complete dead reckoning all the way (we have no idea of any actual celestial fixes FN took), and another set knowing the actual wind vectors. Each pair of runs used the same statistical sampling of actual weather. Finally, based upon prior knowledge that AE's reporting of positions are made long after the positions are calculated, almost everything fits together. Winds aloft are somewhat comparable at the beginning of the flight to what was predicted, and only slightly higher near Nauru and the Ontario. Near Howland, winds are much less than what AE was told in the forecasts. Based upon the computer runs, there are a good number of runs that predict AE's path directly to Howland (that is, what she thought she was doing), but the actual paths end up to the SW of Howland. Most of this is due to (1) AE adjusting flight path to account for non-headwind components (assumed) and the wind directions being a little more easterly than ESE than predicted, putting her to the south, and (2) slightly stronger winds at the beginning of the flight, pushing her to the west. While I can only run the computer models until she says "Must be on you but cannot see you", it seems clear that there is an excellent chance that AE and FN are well (beyond 40 miles!) to the SW and far out of visual range of Howland and/or the Itasca at this time. We do not have any idea of what AE does after she believes she arrives at the supposed advance of the dead-reckoning to the line of position passing through Howland: she could fly in circles, go backwards, do anything else, since she never tells us what she did. The only piece of the puzzle that cannot be reconciled is whether she saw the Ontario or the Myrtlebank at 1030 GMT at night: each have only a small probability of being seen. I suspect the Myrtlebank, however, but cannot produce enough ammunition to conclude that. What I cannot figure out is after flying around for at least an hour and a half is why FN did not shoot the sun again to doublecheck his LOP, which should have told him whether he was aligned with Howland or not. One possibility was that the weather was cloudy and he could not. Finally, remember that if AE was flying around to see Howland for an hour and a half, the winds were from the east, so she would have been set to the west even farther during this time. Hope this helps. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:41:21 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: Coax Cable For whatever it may be worth, I tend to agree with Bruce's opinion about the coax being more likely associated with a mic or speaker cable. The reason for this is traceable to the fact that the center conductor is reported to be made of stranded cable instead of a solid conductor. Stranded cable would be the "smart choice" for any connector that is likely to experience lots of flexure in service. I've also done a quick check with some of the communications experts here at MITRE and they say that antenna coax cables usually use a single solid conductor (at least at UHF and VHF frequencies) in order to reduce transmission losses between the transmitter and antenna. What I'm not sure of is if this was common design parctice at HF frequencies sixty odd years ago practice. So the question is supposing that it is a mic cable --- are there any 'photos showing the microphone in AEs aircraft? Regards . . . Fred Madio ================================================================ Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:50:01 EST From: Craig Fuller Subject: Canton crashes Should we be on the lookout for any crashes on Canton island or only aircraft that had single row radials? For single row radials, off the top of my head, I only come up with a few aircraft, perhaps some other forum members can think of other U. S. WWII aircraft that might have been in the area that had single row radials. Plane Engine Notes OS2U R-985 Every USN accident report has been checked for OS2Us and none crashed on Canton Island or the Phoenix Group. AT-6 R-1340 Fuel range in question L.10E R-1340 Hmmm SBD R-1820 Range??? B-17 R-1820 Possibility I am sure there are others, any suggestions? Granted Bruce is pretty sure that the engine is a 1340, but any chance it could be of Japanese or British descent? Bruce? Craig Fuller TIGHAR # 1589C Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research AAIR www.sonic.net/azfuller **************************************************************** From Ric Forget T-6s. There is no record of one being anywhere near there. PBYs used R-1820s, as did one lonely B-18 based at Canton. Also, there was a whole squadron of A-24s (the Army version of the SBD) based at Canton in 1943. But, again, none of these were reported lost. I'll let Bruce comment on whether he thinks the engine he recovered might have been an 1820. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:26:40 EST From: unknown Subject: polyethylene and DNA Polyethylene is the insulator in most coax cables since WW 2. I remember some promotional plastics ad that stated it was a secret material during WW2, and that the Germans used it by melting down old insulation fron U.S. (and British) made airplanes. I doubt that AE's coax would be polyethylene. Mitochondrial DNA is passed directly from mother to child. Fathers do not pass on their mitochondrial DNA. You would need a sister, mother, maternal great grandmother, etc. Although the relative would not have to be a female, all of the links on the family tree between Noonan and the relative would have to be female. This type of analysis was used on the Romanovs. I spoke with a medical geneticist, who was certain that you could use DNA other than Mitochondrial DNA, by using two techniques called PCR (polymerase chain reaction) and RFP (restriction fragment polymorphisms). To do this well, you would need Noonan's DNA, which you might still be able to get from a bloodstain or something. Relatives are less useful for this type of analysis, the further away from Noonan you get. You might be able to say that the bones were definitely not his, but you could not say that they were his unless you had a sample of his DNA. Females are XX and males are XY. Incidentally, with bones this recent, any decent forensic pathologist should be able to get enough DNA to definitively establish the sex of the skeleton. *************************************************************** From Ric So, if we can document that all insulation after a certain date was polyethylene, and that the insulation on our cable is rubber, then the cable must have been manufactured prior to that date. Yes? Anybody got any bloodstained clothes that belonged to Fred? ================================================================ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:41:19 EST From: Ken Feder Subject: DNA Some inaccuracies and confusion have crept into the discussion of DNA its usefulness here and I though I might chime in. FIrst of all, female human beings have two X chromosomes (XX) and males have and X and a Y (so us guys are XY; some say that the Y chromosome is merely a defective X--that would explain a lot!). About mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA; I have always seen it abreviated as mtDNA, not mDNA). It is located in the mitochondria (remember from high school biology, the "energy factories" of each of our cells). mtDNA is present in each of our cells, including our sex cells. It just so happens that the mtDNA in a sperm cell is located in the tail and the tail is jettisoned on conception. As a result, only the female's mtDNA is present in the fertilized egg. So everybody, male and female, has mtDNA, and we all inherit our mtDNA only from our mothers. It's like your family name; it gets passed down from fathers to their children. If women didn't change their names upon marriage, genealogists could trace all people-men and women-by their family names, but only along the line from father to father. It's the same with mtDNA, only it is traceable along the maternal family line. mtDNA has become incredibly useful because it is so much easier to analyze than nuclear DNA (the double helix). Nuclear DNA codes for more than 100,000 genes; mitochondrial DNA codes for 37. The genes coded for by our nuclear DNA are still being mapped (The Human Genome Project). Scientists have already mapped all of the human mitochondrial genome. Using mtDNA, the bones thought to be those of Tsar Nicholas were compared to a sample drawn from British Royalty (yes, the two families were related in the female line; it was inconsequential that the bones and blood of two men were being compared) and, sure enough, the bones found were of the same mtDNA lineage and so, most likely belonged to the Tsar. Sorry for the long-winded post. All this means that if the stocky adult male's bone recovered on Gardner were, in fact, Noonan's, and if they can be found at this point, they can be traced using mtDNA if any mtDNA can be located from his maternal lineage. Ken Feder 2103 (I think) ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Ken. I had never heard the bit about mtDNA (not mDNA, my mistake) being in the tail. That's why it doesn't get passed on by the sperm. Cool. Yes. Your TIGHAR member number is 2103. Incidentally, while TIGHAR member numbers are often regarded as indicators of abnormally high intelligence, they are not passed on in either the male or the female line. They can only be obtained by joining TIGHAR. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:10:00 EST From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Canton Crashes All the PBY's I can find reference to had twin row 1830's. Did they do a version with the 1820 ? *********************************************************** From Ric No. You're right. I was wrong. They all had 1830s. ************************************************************ From Simon Other 1820 powered aircraft circa WWII, a couple of amphibians that might have originated from a ship: SC-1 Seahawk J2F-6 Duck Also, but of doubtful geographic likelihood: A-29 Hudson Possible Japanese contenders for the engine are: Nakajima "Kotobuki", approx. 700hp Nakajima "Hikari", approx. 700hp Tokyo "Amakaze", approx. 500hp - all 9 cylinder single row radials. Hitachi Ha13, approx 500hp, ?? cylinders, single row. The Kotobuki powers the Nakajima Ka-34 "Thora", and the Ha13 powers the Tachikawa Ki-54 "Hickory", both of which I guess must be candidates for the wreck photo as they fit the general description and were made in large numbers and used extensively in the Pacific war. Simon Ellwood ************************************************************ From Ric We've wondered about the Ki-54 as a candidate for the wreck photo. I'll have to look up the Ka-34. ************************************************************* From Bruce Yoho Simon Ellwood asks: 1. Differences of 985 to 1340? The 1340 is larger in diameter and the cylinders are closer spaced, the 1340 has thinner and a larger number of cooling fins the case is slightly larger in diameter. To me the cylinder spacing, fins and diameter are very noticeable if you know both engines. 2. Name plate? I did look for the Pratt and Whitney logo plate it was not there. I do not recall seeing the name plate.?? 3. Someone asked if it could have been a foreign engine? No and double No It was a Pratt & Whitney. Kind of like a mother picking her child out of a line up. I would not know however if it was a foreign owned Pratt & Whitney Thanks LTM Bruce ************************************************************** From Ric Prewar S3H1 versions of the 1340 had the data plate mounted on the REAR of the case. Look at the many photos of her standing in front of the airplane (for example, the cover of the latest issue of TIGHAR Tracks). No data plate. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:13:51 EST From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Canton Engine I would like to answer all questions, but will have to do it in two posts. First for Don Jordan's questions. 1. Identification of others on the flight? I can picture the three pilots in my mind but the name of them I do not remember. Two pilots few and we had one that traded off on flights for relief. We are trying to come up with a list of some names that would help me. This type of mind recollection is very hard. I have talked to one of the mechanics that was on the Island and he has helped some. 2. Purpose of the flight that day? No recollection on this one 3. Approach to landing with the engine.? We would almost always approach the Island from the south on a north westerly heading we would fly up the east side of the island and when close enough to see what helo traffic was on the ramp would then swing left heading westerly and land on the ramp of the runway. On the day of the engine we made a similar approach however stayed out further to the east with the island barely in site and continued north past the island and we approached from a north west direction on a south east heading. heading which brought us in over the bank and the grass(weeds) field we used to store cargo on. This caused use to make almost a 180 degree left turn back to the island but let us approach over the close ocean end (west end) of the island. This would prevent anyone in the terminal building from seeing us just by looking out the window. They would have had to walk out the building half way to the middle of the ramp to have seen us. Not that we were really that worried, no one had told us we could not bring stuff back nor had they said we could. 4. How long a flight and did we fly over any other islands? No recollection to flight time. We very seldom would fly over or close to another island. We always flew what I call straight line courses. We knew where the others were in fact we did have a vibration once and headed for Bernie. but seldom purposely diverted course to fly over the island. When a flight was of such length that a helo dispatched from canton would take to long to get to us we would always fly with two helo's one designated as rescue. These helos could land in water, and if a controlled landing would float. We always thought what we would do. Land leave rotors turning and get in the life boot of which was a very large inflatable. 5. Broken cylinders top or bottom? No the cylinders did not appear to be broken the appeared to have corroded off as there were some with still part of the Head on them. The engine had all cylinders it was the heads on about three that were missing and corroded. It appeared all pistons were there as the sand impacted them and was like concrete. 6. what side of the island did I find the engine on? These directions are tuff. I am stating it was on the left side of the island as we were heading home and I sat on the right side of the aircraft in the door way looking at the island. We always head northerly towards home that means bottom of the earth south pole to the top of the earth north pole. One problem I had at Canton was I really could have cared less what direction we were going in, that was the pilots job and mine was to see we made it mechanically and we did not interfere with each other. If the pilot was going in the wrong direction, well I was going with him!!!!!!!!!! Location I am in Long Beach ,Ca. Sorry I am so long winded but it is very difficult to think and remember 29 years ago with out a lot of over lap. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:15:15 EST From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Canton Engine Mr. Ellwood questioned the metal tube that was seen in a picture? I was sure, I thought, but had to see what ring he could have been talking about. What the ring is, is a thin tube that the ignition harness is incased in, to prevent the wind from blowing it all over or it would have taken a lot of Adel clamps to have held the harness in place. This was done on a lot of radial engines especialy for the front row of the engine due to wind. These tubes are thin some times chromed (they were very visible) this tube was not on the Canton engine ( would of been one of the first items to corrode away ) LTM Bruce ================================================================ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:17:37 EST From: Tom King Subject: Lockheed dinnerware Response to Mike Ruiz: Yes, Gallagher was aware of the reward, and presumably this was in his mind when he opined that the bones might be AE's and sent them off to Fiji. Having scoured the area where the bones were found, though, there would have been little reason for him to search farther until he heard back from Suva. He then heard from Isaac on Tarawa that they were the bones of a Polynesian male; hence no reason to get more involved with them. By the time Hoodless did his examination and concluded that they were male but NOT Polynesian, Gallagher was virtually en route to Fiji, and died on his return; so again no time to follow up. However, Dr. Macpherson, who accompanied Gallagher on his return to Niku, and tried unsuccessfully to save his life, was a specialist in forensics, and it's possible that part of his charge was to investigate the bones discovery further. We don't know what he did in the days following Gallagher's death, but are trying to find out -- looking both for his own notes and for the log of the Viti, the ship on which they travelled. Gallagher died in September '41; about three months after that there were some events in the Pacific that tended to distract attention from Earhart and Niku, and the island had no administrator to whom things could be reported for several years. Did kids find pieces of the airplane? Well, again, there are lots of aircraft parts in the village, and some of them indeed were used for "dinnerware" if you count laying aluminum over a fire and cooking on it as dinnerware. For that matter, there's the "Holy Grail," a hand-made aluminum cup we found in the village last trip. Aircraft aluminum was also used to make combs, almost certainly jewelry, probably fish lures, and other handicraft items. Trouble is, when stuff gets cut up small enough to do things like that with it, it's not identifiable as to the aircraft of origin. TK ================================================================ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:18:11 EST From: Bob sherman Subject: coax cable Fred Madio wrote: > So the question is supposing that it is a mic cable --- are there any 'photos > showing the microphone in AEs aircraft? What you say is of course possible, however, does one use #10 wire, 0.1" dia., capable of handling at least 30 amperes safely for a mic that may draw a hundreth of an ampere? And mic cables are multi wire because the push -to-talk button operates the 'change over' relay (changes the antenna lead from the receiver to the xmitter & shorts the recvr. term. to preclude high voltage from xmtr from any possibility of burning up the recvr's. rf section). A single conductor coax could not possibly be used as a mic cable on any aircraft even today. # 10 wire would be just fine for several hundred watt applications. RC *************************************************************** From Ric I'm not sure I followed all of that but I'll mention that Earhart did not use a transceiver. Her transmitter and receiver were totally separate units and her mic had no connection to the receiver. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:49:11 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Lockheed dinnerware Tom: Thank you for the info. Mike ================================================================ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:07:19 EST From: Ron Dawson Subject: Kiribati Archives I was wondering where we stand r.e. the Kiribati archives? How much did Peter McQuarrie have a chance to see? Is more research needed? Also, what is the K archives admin. attitude toward Earhart research, cooperative or lukewarm? Do you think there are any files which may be off limits? Also, what about colonial records in England? Thanks, Ron Dawson, #2126 **************************************************************** From Ric Bear in mind that when Peter McQuarrie ran across the file about bones being found on Gardner, he was not researching Earhart at all. Peter writes books (excellent ones) about the impact of WWII upon the people of the Pacific islands. he is also a TIGHAR memeber and, as such, was aware of our interest in the folklore concerning bones found on Gardner. His original message to me about coming across the file was quite casual. My response to the news was not. We really don't know what more may be lurking in the archives in Tarawa and getting one of our researchers, such as Dr. Tom King or Kenton (aka Kanton) Spading, out there to spend some time digging is a high priority. As for the attitude of the Kiribati archives toward Earhart research, it seems to be the same as it is in most archives towards any research - somewhere between dutifully helpful and indifferent. We have no indication that any file is off limits. Kenton Spading is engaged in active correspondence with the archive of the Western Pacific High Commission in England (the source of the recently discovered report by Dr. Hoodless). They seem to be very cooperative and helpful. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:15:26 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: Coax Cable Ric, I follow Bob Sherman's argument, and it seems to make sense to me. Therefore, it appears unlikely that the "coax cable" in question was ever a mic cable. Good job Bob. Regards Fred M. *************************************************************** From Vern How to determine what the dielectric material is... You start with a familiarity with the materials it might be. If it's over 60 years old, examination of elasticity and tensile strength is dubious but do it anyway. Then apply the poor chemist's gas chromatograph... burn a little piece of it and note what it smells like. Also note how it burns and what the smoke is like. Of course, your sense of smell is detecting combustion products, not original material. Doesn't matter, it's distinctive. Extinguish the flame, assuming it does flame, note any residue and examine the burned / melted end. You can also note the effects of various solvents -- it disolves or it doesn't and it may take up some organic solvents swelling considerably. If it will melt, check melting-point. And if you're still unsure, try to inlist the aid of a sure enough polymer chemist with all the fancy equipment available to him. That's what I would do. The material has been characterized as "rubber." Maybe that's exactly what it is. If it's real old natural rubber it's not difficult. Burn a little piece of it and see what you think. The synthetic rubbers were just on the scene in the 30s not very good and not widely used for much of anything. It was not until about 1940 that a variety of synthetic rubbers appeared and became widely used. I may be able to learn something about what the heck was being used for dielectric in coaxial cable for RF applications in the 30s. Just have to find time to get to the library. **************************************************************** From Ric Vern, Sounds like a plan. I'll be in touch by private email to discuss possible transmittal of artifact samples for testing. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:36:10 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: DNA My apologies to the forum about mixing up my X and Ys' !! (I never could type) sjc #2110 ================================================================ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:58:55 EST From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Canton Crashes From Simon Ellwood Ric wrote: >Prewar S3H1 versions of the 1340 had the data plate mounted on the REAR of the >case. Look at the many photos of her standing in front of the airplane (for >example, the cover of the latest issue of TIGHAR Tracks). No data plate. Good point Ric, I only have pictures of the 1340 circa WWII. It had occurred to me that the AE L10E photos had no plates on the engines - I assumed they were perhaps on the other side of the crank housing, out of shot. Bruce actually remembers looking for the P&W Logo plate (presumably this is also the ID s/n plate) but not finding it. Back to my question in a previous posting - can we positively identify it if the plate's corroded away ? Perhaps the pistons etc. are stamped ?? Bruce makes a point about not knowing whether the P&W could have been foriegn:- As far as the Japanese are concerned, according the my ref. books, the Japs had licences to build quite a few European type engines in the inter-war period but no U.S. engine types. They developed their own improved versions i.e. the Nakajima Kotobuki is a developed Bristol Jupiter. I think that in the heart of the Pacific in the era of WWII the U.S. and the Japs were the only two real powers so I think it's safe to say that if the engine's a 1340 it's almost certainly U.S. Ref:- the Ki-34, I have some details & a photo if you need them. Simon Ellwood *************************************************************** From Ric It is my understanding that the crankshaft and cams are individually serialized. Matching those numbers against P&W's records of what engines they went into would be quite a job but would be theoretically doable, providing the records still exist. The presence of a Japanese engine on any of the islands of the Phoenix Group would be very hard to explain. The public has the impression that the entire Pacific is littered with Japanese and American airplane debris from WWII. That is, of course, only true for places where there was wartime activity. The only known Japanese involvement anywhere in the Phoenix Group was one bombing raid on Canton early in 1943. No Japanese aircraft were reported lost. If the Ki (or is it Ka?) -34 is a stressed aluminum, twin-engined airplane powered by engines with two-bladed propellers, I'd like to see a photo. Thanks. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:08:53 EST From: Dan Subject: Remote Sensing Tutorial >From: "Ronald G. Blom" >Subject: ARSC: May be of interest-Remote Sensing Tutorial > >Hi, > >I just found out about this and thought it might be of interest......... > >http://ode935.gsfc.nasa.gov/Tutorial/TofC/Coverpage.html > >cheers! > >Ron >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ronald G. Blom, Ph.D. >Lead Scientist, Terrestrial Sciences Research Element >Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Mail Stop 300-233 I checked this out briefly. It looks like a good place to go, to learn about satellite photos and other remote sensing techniques, including aerial photography. I doubt that the resolution of any satellite data currently available is good enough for what we would want to use it for. It might be possible to find something the size of a grave or fuselage, or most of a wing. If anyone wants to join me in working there way through this tutorial, I'd be happy to have company and discuss things with them. Dan ================================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:26:27 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Remote Sensing Tutorial Dan, How about short cutting the process by contacting the people who wrote the tutorial and asking for help and advice? Blue skies, -jerry ================================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:25:26 EST From: Al Subject: Photos of the Electra Someone was talking about pictures of the Electra.....Purdue Univ has several large pictures of the plane and of AE. Next time you come to see the Purdue Boilermakers play basketball (or football) drop into Stewart Center and go to the 2nd floor. There is quite a bit of stuff there. AL *************************************************************** From Ric Purdue has one of the finest collections of Earhart photos, documents and memorabilia anywhere. The present curator of the collection is: Prof. Katherine (Katie) Markee Purdue University Libraries 1530 Stewart Center W. Lafayette, IN 47907-1530 765/ 494-2904 ================================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:27:49 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Remote Sense Tutorial I agree, an excellent tutorial. I believe section 8 is of particular interest to our efforts. Clyde Miller has done good work in this area as well. I'll contact both of you. Mike Ruiz ================================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:34:10 EST From: Bob Sherman Subject: Coax Cable III For Fred Madio *** FRED: I goofed! In equating the 10 strands of 0.010" conductors, I added the numbers. A greek named PI then rolled over in his grave. The cross-sectional area of the 10 strands is equivalent to a #24 conductor; considerably smaller than a #10. Thus the cable would not be too heavy for 'mike use'. Further, Ric said that AE did not have a 'transceiver', but a separate xmitter, thus a a single conductor, shielded cable was at least possible for a mike. At the moment the cable is being analyzed. We hope to learn if it was in use prior to 1936. If not, then what it was used for will not make any difference. RC ================================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:05:28 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: DNA and other topics Thanks to Bruce for that infomation on the engine. Guess we just have to buy a shovel. Wish I could go along! Ric, Your idea of finding some bloody clothes of Fred's for DNA might not be a bad idea. Even though bloody clothes would be impossible to find, maybe there is something else we can use. They got DNA from one of Jesse James teeth, how about getting DNA from one of the envelopes Fred sent home. He had to lick it to seal it. Could there still be some DNA in the glue? Are there any letter available? Just a thought... Also, I found a newspaper article today in the Stockton Record, July 5, 1937 issue, that said the Electra had a portable radio on board in case of a water landing. I don't believe it, but it was interesting to read. It also said the Electra was like a raft. With all the empty gas tanks it could float indefinitely. Which brings me to my questions. With all that airplane debris in the water, assuming the waves broke it up, why hasn't anything ever been found on a beach or floating around. Of course you can't answer that...Just another thought. It would seem if it were on Niku, broken up, more would have been spotted during the search. There should have been junk everywhere. (Thinking out loud) If she landed on Niku and was able to run an engine for power to send radio signals, I wonder why she never made any mention of a big marker, like the S. S. Norwich City. She must have been in sight of it. Has anyone ever gone through that old (new then) wreck to see what is in it. Would that be possible? One more thing. The Stockton Record also said the charts of that day were inaccturate. So much so that the Navy search planes could not locate Winslow Reef which is about 175 miles south east of Howland. There is nothing on my chart about Winslow Reef. Do you know anything about it. How high above water is it, What were the tides like that morning? Now that I really stirred the pot...I'll go to bed now. Don Jordan (#2109) *************************************************************** From Ric DNA from a sixty-one year-old envelope? Would that work? I dunno. If the Electra broke up on the reef flat at Niku it does seem reasonable to assume that there would be quite a bit of junk washed up on the beach. The actual amount of junk would depend upon: 1. How badly the airplane broke up before the main body of wreckage either sank off the edge of the reef or washed up into the bushes (I tend to favor the latter scenario). 2. How much of the broken up debris was either buoyant or had a surface-area- to-mass ratio that caused it to be moved by the surf action. We do have a number of anecdotal accounts which describe washed up wreckage, but they date from a later time when there were people on the ground. How visible scattered debris would be from the air is hard to assess. Also, any debris on a beach would not stay out in the open for long. Surf activity would soon either bury it in the sand or move it up into the treeline. We have no way of knowing whether some of the airplane debris we found in the village might have been originally found washed up on a beach. We've never done an intensive metal-detector search along the section of beachfront we now suspect as being the most likely place debris may be found. If the post-loss radio signals were genuine, why didn't Earhart mention the Norwich City? Remember that none, but one, of the more credible transmissions had any discernable content. Most were just weak carrier waves on Earhart's frequency. The one message that had content - the cryptic "281" message - was fragmentary. Bottom line: for all we know Earhart and Noonan were describing the Norwich City in great detail and saying that they were Gardner Island. For what it's worth, one of the unverifiable messages reported by ham operators in the U.S. supposedly included the phrase, "SHIP ON REEF SOUTH OF EQUATOR." Was "ship" a reference to the Electra (as was supposed at the time) or was this part of an attempt to describe a unique feature of the island? Inquiring minds want to know. Norwich City burned when it went aground. By 1937 the wreck was a very rusty, gutted hulk. Today very little is left except for the massive triple- expansion steam engine. As for the saga of Winslow Reef, that's Randy Jacobson's department. Ric ================================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:27:38 EST From: Bill Zorn Subject: Japanese aircraft found some information re: japanese aircraft and engines in "japanese aircraft from the pacific war by rene j. francillion published by naval institute press (a fabulous series of books for us armchair-aviators) library of congress # 86-63962. pg. 523 phot0, engine, side view, nakajima kotbuki KAI 1 nine cylinder air cooled radial pg 507-508 text & photo & three view drawing. Lockheed type LO (allied code name 'TOBY'): 1938 Lockheed exports 30 type 14-38 (Lodestar? certainly not Electra) aircraft powered by Wright R-1820; 1939 Tachikawa manuf. under licence for army. A modified version powered by Mitsubishi 900 hp Ha-26-1. (page 515 a.k.a Army type 99 Model 1 14 cyl, air cooled. photo /side view pg 517 shows 99 model 2 a.k.a Ha-26-II ) three blade metal prop in text and photograph. Total production by Tachikawa 1940-1942 -64 aircraft, by Kawasaki 1940-1941-55. One airframe modified by Tachikawa 1943 to pressure-cabin . Used briefly for experimental work. a.k.a type SS-1 re-design of airframe type L.O. leads to Kawasaki Ki-56, pg.108 -109 text & photo & three view drawing . Kawasaki Ki-56 (allied code name "THALIA") september 1939 (parallel develoment similar to lockheed, unlicenced) improvements to wing structure, flaps, fuselage and engine 99 model 2 a.k.a Ha-26-II three blade metal prop in text and phograph. in production to september 1943-121 examples --- other japanese aircraft 'similar to either lodestar or electra' but similarly unlikely candiates most w/ photos & 3 view drawings KAWASAKI pg. 93-102 (from the K-38 prototype 12 cyl.radial no other signifcant data ) Kawasaki Ki-45 TORYU 'dragon killer' variants Ki-45 KAI, KAIa, KAIb, KAIc, KAId. prototypes ( 3 blade 9 cyl. engine. production only 3) post-prototype 3 blade metal 12 cyl. and 14 cylinder production appx 1700 pg.123-124 Ki-66 3 blade metal 14 cylinder producton run of 6 pg.127-128 Ki-96 3 blade metal 14 cylinder producton run just 3 pg.134-138 Ki-102 (allied code name RANDY) 3 blade metal 14 cylinder production apx 260 MITSUBISHI pg 155-164 Ki-21, Mc-21 (allied code name Betty) 3 blade metal 14 cylinder production 2704, 1936 to 1944 by mitsubishi and nakajima see also Ki-57 below. pg.168-177 Ki-46 (allied code name DIANA) 3 blade metal 14 cylinder production appx 1750 pg.182-185 Ki-57 (allied code name TOPSY) a.k.a Mc-20, army type 100 transport, Mc-20 (civil), navy type 0 transport model 11, L4M1. 507 examples pg. 350-357 GM3 (allied code names NELL, TINA) a.k.a. Ka-9 (liquid cooled) Ka-15, G3M1,G3M2 model 21, L3Y1,L3Y2, 12 cyl, 14 cyl, 3 blade metal, &4 blade wood variants. 1048 produced NAKAJIMA pg 204-205 Ki-34 (allied code name THORA) a.k.a. Army transport type 97, (AKAGEWA)At-1, At-2, navy type At-2, L1N1. many types with 9 cylinder 2 blade wood, boeing 247 windshield fuselage profile in photograph .351 produced. thus endth the book report. hence beginnith the editorial. submitted for your consideration I would strongly suggest that any forum members, TIGHAR members, fans, critics and undecided all view and consider the site dealing with the missing Learjet in upper New England. Certainly, if an aircraft can vanish today in such a manner and place, consider the scope of this search. TIGHAR has presented the most logical approach to the quest for AE FN that I have seen thus far, leader Ric has admitted that it is an ongoing evolving quest, and we may never have all the answers, or could be dead wrong on the basics other than they "went for a ride in an airplane and got lost". I wouldn't be here if I thought this was simply "Ric and TIGHAR's excellent adventure, send donations to....." type of organization I think TIGHAR's methods are valid. If we are wrong, we are wrong, and the plane went down in the water, far far from land. That sort of search involves technology and resources far in advance of this civilization. (I would also strongly suggest that forum members, TIGHAR members, fans, critics and undecided assist in the Learjet search if so able.) At this time, this is the best we have, and its pretty d@mn good. As to the Japan as villain societies. Most of these types are real or imagined military history buffs. Following this period of time, Japan was about to generate a lot of "bad press." Emotionally in the late 30's into the 40's many were willing to believe that Japan would have expended the resources to find, capture, kidnap, torture, kill AE FN . Perhaps it is time to put out a map ( nothing we like better than a good map!) , on and off-line gleaned from official records and say, here is where the Japanese actually were, here is where the USA thought they might be. Any flight paths involved would have been at best, suicidal. Reconnaissance from the air (and avoiding same) was a fetal science in the 1930's. Were AE FN supposed to look out the window and say "(no) (some) (many) rising suns here? Alert the president!" An equally likely scenario would have Nazi U-boats with death rays pirating the Electra away to advance the Luftwaffe ( if a book comes out now, with Nazi's as villains, you heard it here first) (and hopefully last) What do Japanese records as to ship movements at this time say? Assuming any informative records survived WW2. It should be easy to demonstrate that there- were-no-Japanese-here. once and for all. There must be a quote or a moment from that Star-Trek Voyager episode we can use. Admittedly, the worst episode from the weakest of the s.t. / paramount franchise. To all the serious trek-volk out there all I can say is, to you, the children of tama, sewkath-his eyes closed, chaka-when the walls fell : and mirrab, his sails,unfurled, to that episode. Most illogical. William H. Zorn zornwmh@aol.com TIGHAR 1562c trekin from the 70's **************************************************************** From Ric Whew! Great stuff, and fun to read, but you lost me there at the end. So the Ki-34 had a wooden prop. We can cross that one off the list. As for Japanese ship movements, that has been well-researched by Randy and is quite interesting. But do not for a moment think that providing solid documentation as to the idiocy of the conspiracy theories will in any way thwart those whose lives only find meaning in that dark realm. "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and annoys the pig." ================================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:57:34 EST From: Dan Subject: Remote Sensing Tutorial Jerry Hamilton wrote: >How about short cutting the process by contacting the people who wrote the >tutorial and asking for help and advice? Good idea, but they appear to be off-line at present. I will keep trying. Dan ================================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:08:31 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Ric's Request I have a request to make of everyone who submits postings to the forum. Please write your messages the same way you would write a letter to Aunt Mabel. Capitalize proper nouns, use commas and periods in the customary places, and if you can't spell, avail yourself of the miraculous spell- checker. This request is not part of any crusade to save the world from slovenly writing. It is merely an attempt to save time. Most forum submissions are not a problem and I want everyone to have his or her say, but I'm not going to post illegible cyber-speak on TIGHAR's forum. So, on those occasions when hard-to-read and harder-to-understand messages come in, I fix them, and it takes time that I'd rather spend doing something else. Thanks for humoring me. Ric ================================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:20:24 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: Re: Coax Cable III So the coax cable is back in the ball game?? If so -- what is its length? Is it too short to be useful as a mic cable? If it still makes sense as a (possible) mic cable, are there any 'photos showing it in the aircraft, etc? . . . Fred Madio ************************************************************** From Ric Because the cable was already in two pieces when found, we can't be sure whether we have one piece of cable with a connector on each end, or two separate cables, each with a connector on one end. If the former is the case, the cable seems to have been about 40 inches long. I don't think I've ever seen a mic with a detachable cord . ================================================================ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:26:16 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Winslow Reef >As for the saga of Winslow Reef, that's Randy Jacobson's department. I wrote an article in EOS, Transactions of the American Geophysical Union regarding Winslow Reef and the search by the Colorado pilots. Unless you have access to a good library with geophysical-type journals in it, I can mail you a copy, if you email me directly. I have plenty left over. Randy Jacobson rjacobson@erols.com **************************************************************** From Ric For those with a more casual interest in Winslow Reef, the bottom line is; it's there but it's hard to find and it's not surprising that the boys from the Colorado didn't see it. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:49:00 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Tracking Noonan Where can one get the collection of all radio messages that were reported. I think you said there were some two or three hundred of them. As for my contact here in regards to Fred, this is what he said today. He talked to other family members last night and it seems they all have "stuff" about Fred and Mary. They want him (Jerry) to look it over first to see if any of it would embarrass the family. He wants me to call him next Wednesday. Boy I'm getting tired of this run around. I told him I was only interested in items about Fred, not Mary, unless it pertains to Fred. As for your request, we all make mistakes. I haven't seen anything too bad on the forum yet. You must have corrected them first. I do the best I can, so did Fred. If I have to have everything perfect before I submit it...I might as well drop out of this Forum now! Don Jordan (#2109) **************************************************************** From Ric Whoa....easy boy. I'm not the high school English teacher that made your life hell and I don't grade anybody's papers. Your postings, like most, are just fine. What I'm talking about are those who somehow feel that email exists in some alternative universe where words and letters can be strung together like some kind of cryptography. Speaking of mysterious communications, there is unfortunately no one place where all of the three hundred or so post-loss messages are compiled. Randy Jacobson has data-based the roughly three THOUSAND official government messages relating to the Earhart flight and the subsequent search and those contain many references to post-loss messages. The tougher ones to track are the ones reported by ham operators. They appear in various newspaper articles and wire stories. One skeleton that may be lurking in the Passadori closet may involve an automobile accident Fred and Mary Bea had in April or May of 1937. It was apparently fairly serious and (speculation) may have been alcohol-related. Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:07:07 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: The No Land Club Don: In reference to your wreckage questions: I represent a hard line forum faction known as the Electra No Land Club. Over lunch and at the water fountain (coffee pot, actually) several co-workers and myself have engaged in intensive debate over the question: what happened to the Electra? We believe the Electra was not on Niku when searched by air on 9 July 1937. While we continue to hear war stories about Lear Jets lost in the woods, aircraft in the desert missed time and time again, buka tree measurements etc., we remain firm in our belief that the Electra was not on Niku at that time. It was in water. Over the years, the lagoon or ocean may have spit up pieces onto Niku. Note the aviators in our group do not doubt the search and rescue stories, we believe they are true. Search & rescue is difficult. That is not the debate we engage in here. Niku has a unique geographical layout. Niku is approx 1500 ft wide at its widest point. The unanimous perspective on this end of the net (based on TIGHAR Tracks photos) is that Niku is a particularly easy aerial search subject. Simply put, none of us on this end think the Electra was on land 9 July 1937, if ever. The three aircraft + six aviators who searched the island did not see the plane because it was not there. The plane probably floated off the reef into the ocean. We do not believe the plane is on land; consequently, wreckage was not seen when an aerial search was conducted, and when the Gilbertese toured the island in October 1937. We think the plane went off the reef into the ocean by 9 July. Ric: What bothers me about your statement written today is that if the bush is thick enough to hide a 747, a significant percentage of the debris would have been rejected by foliage density for a period of time, which would result in visible wreckage that would have been seen by the air search (July) or ground visit(October). We believe the Electra dragged off the reef losing an engine on the way, before we believe a radial moved 1.5-2 miles across the lagoon, thru the inlet, and onto the reef. If the engine got to the reef from Aukaraime (which is possible I suppose), it happened between 1963-1970, when the island was uninhabited. Before 1963 the Gilbertese would have intercepted it, because to get to the reef, the engine would have to travel over what appears to be a very shallow inlet, that went right by their village. ************************************************************** From Ric I can't see an engine making its way from Aukaraime to the reef flat. I can see an airplane on the reef flat being washed shoreward, losing an engine on the way, and ending up in the dense foliage along the shoreline in such a way as to be hard, if not impossible to spot from the air. Differences in opinion is what makes horse races. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:12:36 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Mic Cable and Coax I think we have to admit the possibility that the co-ax might be a mic cable. If we believe the cable would not have been detachable from the microphone, then we seem to have pieces of cable from two microphones. A shielded cable does make sense -- less pickup of electrical noise from other equipment such as engine ingition, generator brushes, etc. Present mic cables are often shielded although we don't think of that sort of cable as being co-ax as is used for RF -- just shielded mic cable. There was an earlier reference to a push-to-talk switch such as would be on the microphone today. I think there would be such a switch, but not necessarily on the microphone. In 1937, who knows? This probably has little to do with anything but, who knows at this point? It was was pointed out that Amelia had a separate receiver and transmitter as opposed to a transceiver. I think there would still have been a change-over switch (relay?) to switch the antenna from the receiver to the transmitter. I would expect the same antenna was used for both. Even if there were separate antennas, You would still have to protect the input circuits of the receiver when the transmitter was on -- disconnect antenna and short input. So, there must have been a "talk switch"... somewhere. I understand that it has been established that the antenna connections to the receiver and the transmitter, whether Western Electric or Bendix, were connectors that match the Jones Series 101 plugs on the cable pieces. What about the microphone connector on the transmitter? Do we know what that was? Earphone connector: That picture of Amelia fiddling with the radio... Those sure look like good old "Murdock" earphones. I'll bet there's a PL-55 sort of plug on the end of the cord. *************************************************************** From Ric The radios were Western Electric and/or Bendix, so the connectors would have to be appropriate. We haven't established anything for certain about the microphone or its connections. *************************************************************** From Vern We have co-ax that appears to have a rubber dielectric. And that's probably just what it is. Polyethylene would not be mistaken for rubber. I'm trying to zero in on just when co-ax with polyethylene dielectric would have first become available and in widespread use. I've only scratched the surface but this is the way it's looking right now. It looks a little strange. In the literature of the mid-30s and even up to 1940, I'm seeing no evidence of flexible co-ax being used in HF radio. Not in articles nor in the advertising. The wire and cable makers were not offering coaxial cable. This is troublesome. Where did that co-ax with rubber dielectric come from, whenever it was made? In the period I'm looking at, connection to receiving antennas was twisted-pair, presumably with rubber insulation -- what else was there? Transmitters were connected with uninsulated wire pairs spaced several inches apart with insulators, usually porcelain, located at intervals along the length. This certainly does not seem likely in an aircraft! Are we seeing something unique to aircraft radio installations? Was that virtually the only market for coaxial cable until sometime later than 1940? As I say, I've only scratched the surface. I'll keep on scratching. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:10:14 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Accident? I would like to know the position and make-up of Winslow Reef. Also how was it ruled out as a possible landing sight.? Accident by Fred and Mary huh? Was that around this area? I'll look in the paper and see what I can find. An interesting note, Jerry Passadori said that Mary was married before Fred but that he was a drunkard. Would she marry two? I don't think what Jerry has will help us in the quest, but you never know. My goal is to find hand writings samples for Fred and other personal information. Who knows? Back to the radio messages...If one believes that most of the radio messages were false or a hoax, then the rest must be real. I am convinced that at least one was real. Which one I don't know, but the fact that I believe one was real means I believe she must have landed on land (Reef) gear down. I think if she landed gear up, the Electra would have been too damaged to turn on power for the radio. I wish there were some way to compile all the messages into one digest and "pretend" she sent them all. Just to see what kind of a picture they would paint. As we learn more each year, old information might make sense. I have a hard time believing all the junk (Electra) on the beach was gone by the time the island was flown over. I just don't think that's possible. Could the interior of that island really hide an airplane all these years? Maybe if I could read the old TIGHAR Tracks I could answer my own question? Are copies of all the research material available? Don Jordan (#2109) ************************************************************* From Ric Winslow Reef is well north of the Phoenix Group and is not far from the 157/337 line of position. It is usually completely underwater and in tidal conditions when it does break the surface it is not more than a line of breakers over some jagged coral. Not a possible landing place at all. I applaud your desire to study up on the work that has been done, but it's not necessary to order all of the old TIGHAR Tracks. I'd suggest that you order the Earhart Project Anthology (available though the website at www.tighar.org). It's a compilation of all of the Earhart Project article that have appeared in TIGHAR Tracks. At $15 it's a steal (we'll soon be raising the price to $25 just to cover costs). ================================================================ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:14:01 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Coax Cables Ric wrote: >The radios were Western Electric and/or Bendix, so the connectors would have >to be appropriate. I'm missing something here... Do we know that these radios did, in fact, have connectors that mated with Jones Series 101 plugs? *************************************************************** From Ric Gotta be careful here. We know that Western Electric and Bendix were among the manufacturers who used this type of plug. We do NOT have direct evidence that Earhart's radios used this plug. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:25:54 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Tracking Noonan Did anyone follow up on the film production guy in California who was supposed to be related to Fred Noonan? I will volunteer if this still needs doing. blue skies, -jerry **************************************************************** From Ric Thanks. I'll email you the contact information. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:29:39 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: DNA Ken Feder: My thanks also for the most interesting and informative post! You were only half long-winded! I know from long-winded. I've done lotsa long-winded! So, if we should be so fortunate as to find that Fred Noonan had a sister and if she had one, or more, children they would be potential candidates for mtDNA matching, whether male or female. Is it possible to tell us a bit more about how all this works in terms we might comprehend without making a project of learning about DNA? Maybe something in the nature of "DNA for Dummies." I expect some of us are familiar with the electrophoresis equipment and how that works. But what's between some old bones and the electrophoresis separation? What confidence could be assigned to the matching with one of the children of Noonan's theoretical sister? Thanks for any enlightenment you can impart to us dummies! ================================================================ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:51:23 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Cover Photo That's an interesting picture on the front cover of the September 30, 1996 issue of TIGHAR Tracks. I wonder if we may be seeing that coaxial cable the way it looked in 1937? The picture looks like it might be inside the Electra. Running up the wall is what appears to be a cable of about the right size. It's held in place by what look like a couple of ceramic stand-off insulators. They look like the kind of insulators widely used by radio people at that time in all sorts of applications. If that is co-ax, the insulators are superfluous. The shielding braid would be "grounded" (connected to aircraft structure). No need to insulate it -- just hold in in place with any sort of clamps or straps. But radio people were used to supporting antenna leads that way. They had been doing it since long before co-ax existed. May the box she's sittin on contain the radio gear? Whatever it is, it seems to have a "grounding" wire connected at the corner. The box may be on some sort of vibration isolating pad or some such. Later, "shock mounts" would have been used. In any case one would certainly "ground" the enclosure. I don't see evidence of the "spedometer cable(s)" leading forward to the tuning head. Nor do I see power wiring. Maybe not in veiw, maybe under the flooring. I take the two lines with fittings to be fuel lines, perhaps from extra fuel tanks located behind her. I can't make much of what is behind her -- maybe a tie-down of some sort and possibly more fuel lines running upward -- and something just behind her head that I can't figure out at all. *************************************************************** From Ric (The same photo can be seen on the TIGHAR website on the first Earhart project page beside the caption Sixty Years Is Long Enough To Wait.) AE is in the cabin just forward of the cabin door and facing aft. The silver thing behind her is the rear-most fuselage fuel tank. The wire you see running up the wall beside her is the lead in from the airplane's dorsal V antenna to the Western Electric Type 13C transmitter she is sitting on. Yes. It does look to be approximately the same diameter as our cable. The thing in front of her feet is the auxilliary battery box and the two lines with fittings appear to be power lines running forward from that battery. I don't know what the switch-like thing is behind her head. This photo was taken before the installation of the fancy plywood navigator's table that Paul Mantz put in for Harry Manning's use on the first world-flight attempt (and which may have been removed prior to the second attempt). My guess, (from the equipment, AE's appearance, and her cute pose) would be that this picture was taken in February '37, possibly when AE was having some radio work done by Western Electric while she was on the East Coast. Lots and lots of things got changed between then and a bad morning in July. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:09:04 EST From: Bob Subject: Possible breakthrough I have both the FCC Commercial and Amateur Radio License, 45-years experience in electronics, and 31-years working on Avionics with Pan Am. I have been leaning towards the thinking that the coax was from a receiving circuit, not transmitting, because of the rubber dielectric. However, in talking about this with a friend of mine, who is a Radio Broadcast Engineer, Amateur Radio Operator, Private Pilot and has been involved in some older aircraft restoration, he immediately recognized the cable and the Jones connector as being used in the 20's and 30's as magneto/spark plug wires. He says that the Jones plug connected to the magneto and another type connector was on the spark plug end. He mentioned Eisman and Sintella (sic) type magnetos? This theory may be worth looking into. Regards, Bob ************************************************************** From Ric This is very interesting. A quick check shows that the Lockheed Model 10E came equipped with Scintilla mags. Crucial questions: Can he provide examples of the magneto/plug cable and connectors for comparison? Does this type of set up differ from what was used during WWII? Significance: If we can prove that these cables are uniquely aviation components which are inconsistent with WWII and are consistent with the Lockheed Model 10, they become very important artifacts indeed. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:13:36 EST From: Ann Subject: Noonan's accident In a recent posting to the forum you mentioned an automobile accident inwhich Fred Noonan was involved.In the book Last Flight(the chapter titled INTERLUDE)AE wrote:....the human cargo for the next flight was pared down.As Captain Manning had to return to his Atlantic command, his place as navigator was taken by Fred Noonan,whose desire to go along seemed unshaken by our experience.As to Noonan, I came to realize that there was a humanitarian aspect to the flight.Shortly before the Oakland take-off Fred was in a serious automobile accident.Soon after our return to California he survived another highway smash-up.So he and Mrs. Noonan were eager for him to take to the air for safety!(exclamation point is the authors).It would be interesting if this seemingly insignificant event would lead to a clue in Noonan's DNA hunt.I'm thinking of possible emergency room blood samples,tissue samples,etc.It's a far fetched thought probably...like looking for one particular grain of sand in the Sahara Desert.Thanks for your patience. Ann *************************************************************** From Ric Two accidents! How about police reports? Newspaper articles? Fred was famous before he got involved with AE. The accidents may have gotten some press coverage. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:29:12 EST From: Bob Subject: Magneto wire I talked with my friend again about the the Scintilla mags and wire. He has no examples. At the airport shop where he hangs out, there is an old manual that lists various parts and their numbers. He is going to look up the Jones connector part number and get back to me. He says that the Scintilla mag system was in use from the late 20's-early 30's until the late 50's. Then Bendix bought out Scintilla and the connectors changed to another type. Today, when restoring an aircraft, they either reuse the connectors/mags, and just replace the shielded cable or completely replace the system with a new Bendix type. He said that the engine manufacturers manual should show in detail how the mag and the wiring looked and have their part numbers. I don't think that the Lockheed 10 used any RF coax for it's transmitting systems. Low loss coax (with poly dielectric for RF transmitter output use), wasn't developed and put into use until about 1939. The coax that we have, with the rubber dielectric, could only have been used for received signals, audio and ac or dc voltages. It could also have been used for mic cables, but they wouldn't have use this type of Jones connector. The cable that we have is a coaxial type of construction but is really only just a simple shielded wire. Regards, Bob *************************************************************** From Ric Okay. It looks like we need to: 1. Really verify that NR16020 had Scintilla mags. 2. Get hold of a manual for the appropriate model and see if we see what looks like our cables. 3. If at all possible, find an existing, preserved example of an airplane that used the same set up and make a comparison of the cables. (NOTE: The chances of No. 3 above are real iffy. We'll have to find an airplane that has not been "restored." It's this sort of thing that drives me nuts about the air museum world. But that's a different issue and off topic.) Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:36:47 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan After going through the 1900 Il federal census soundex, which covers all, ("most") variations of name spelling, I found only *one* Fred Noonan..., but, birth place was not Chicago, but in Warren County. Also his birth date was Dec 1899. Parents, John and Ella Noonan. He has 3 older sisters and two older brothers. Also located a marriage record for John Noonan and Ellen Shunick 1883 in Warren Co, IL. Now it is possible Fred stretched his age abit so he could sail the seas and that could explain the difference in the earlier mentioned birthdate of 1893. Warren county isn't too far from Chicago, either. This is the best I can do not knowing for sure what Fred's father's name might be.... *But*...! If this IS our Fred...., we've got at least 3 sisters to track! Also loacted an obiturary for Mary Bea Ireland, which was tells abit about her, but has no mention of past life with Fred. Only "clue" it has, states she lived in Santa Barbara for 41 years, after moving there in, yes you guesssed it, 1937... Sandy #2110 *************************************************************** From Ric Excellent work. Sounds like you may be on the trail. Does the census give middle names or initials? Our boy was Frederick J. (don't know what it stood for though). Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:33:42 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Lambrecht Report Thanks for the Lambrecht Report, very interesting. I scanned the report into Word, and am cleaning it up now. I will forward you a Word version that can made available to who ever is interested via an- e-mail attachment . If any one out there wants a copy of the Lambrecht Report (the Lambrecht Report is the Navy aerial search report for AE & FN) let me know and I can e-mail it to you when I am done. Let me know if you need it in something other than Word. Ric, can you send me the anthology and charge my cc number, or do I need to re-send the order form? My number is 2088. What is the cruising speed range of the 03u-3? ************************************************************** From Ric Your anthology will be on the way shortly. >What is the cruising speed range of the 03U-3? I don't know, but I also don't understand why we need to know. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:34:06 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Accidents Can anyone tell me where and when Fred had those two accidents? When I finish my days work at the RENT paying job in other towns, I always go to the library and read microfilm. I've read about everything in all papers from my area for the period June and July 1937. What other dates shall I start reading? By the way Ric, I'm in the microfilm business if that's of any interest. Don Jordan (#2109) *************************************************************** From Jerry When would these Noonan auto accidents have taken place? Any guess as to where? Blue skies, -jerry ================================================================ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:41:35 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Coax Cables Bob, Do you know what they were using to connect antennas to aircraft radio equipment in the 30s ?? ================================================================ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:01:16 EST From: Bob Sherman Subject: Magneto wire Ric wrote: > 3. If at all possible, find an existing, preserved example of an airplane > that used the same set up and make a comparison of the cables. ***Why not ask Elgin Long?? No harm in asking & he may be able to shed some light on it, even though his L-10 may have a modified ignition. RC # 941 ************************************************************** From Ric Elgen Long does not have a Lockheed 10. You may be thinking of the airplane in the Western Aerospace Museum in Oakland. That machine belongs to a gentleman named Fred Patterson. As you note, chances are that any airplane that remained in service for a long time had the mags and wiring updated at some point. This kind of question has come up many times in the past and we find that the best chance for getting an answer is to find a airplane in museum storage that nobody has gotten to yet. There are no Lockheed 10s that fit that description but there may be other airplanes of the same mid-1930s vintage with Scintilla mags. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:02:18 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Tracking Noonan Some of the Noonan info suggests Fred was educated in "Chicago" public schools and went to private Illinois military academy. Any thing in the Warren county area that can be checked? Blue skies, -jerry ================================================================ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:45:06 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Magneto wire Perhaps the "Confederate Air Force" can be of some help in Harlingen, Texas. --Chris Kennedy ************************************************************* From Ric The CAF moved from Harlingen to Midland, TX a few years ago. They rebuild and operate WWII-type aircraft. They are not engaged in historic preservation. Anyone who rebuilds and maintains old-type aircraft in airworthy condition must have safety, not history, as the first priority. I sure hope that nobody is out there flying around behind 60 year-old mag wiring. I think that it's more likely that we might find some help from the EAA Antiques and Classics Division. We're looking for examples of the kind of components they may be accustomed to replacing. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:45:55 EST From: Bob Subject: Antenna lead in Re the TIGHAR Tracks Sept. 30, 1996 Issue Cover Photo.(an example) The wire going up the bulkhead, attached to stand off insulators, is just a large copper wire with a covering of insulation of some type. It is the antenna transmission line. The wire goes up to the antenna directly, insulated from the airplane, from the output of the transmitter. As noted, the transmitter is grounded to the airplane and the airplane itself (electrically) makes up the other half of the antenna. Regards, Bob ================================================================ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:47:47 EST From: Bob Sherman Subject: Antenna lead in > Do you know what they were using to connect antennas to aircraft radio > equipment in the 30s ?? Parallel wires separated by four to six inch insulators every eight inches to a foot were common "lead-in" for transmitters & receivers, until (Radio Frequency*)coax.came along. Coaxial cross section construction, similar to "shielded wire", except that the dimensions were such that the wire would appear to the load (antenna, & xmitter or recvr.) as a certain "impedance" (sort of ac resistance). Max power is transferred between RF devices when their impedance matches.; mismatching wastes power. RC #941 ================================================================ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:48:57 EST From: Ann Subject: Noonan accident dates I assume from the comments AE made in LAST FLIGHT about Noonan's accidents,March 1937 might be a good starting point. Ann#2101 ================================================================ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:53:40 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: No prop? Just a quick thought regarding the engine found on the reef without hub or propeller attached. If the Electra had landed on the reef flat, and if the propeller(s) were bent or damaged due to a prop strike, collapsed gear, or a gear up landing, wouldn't it be logical to remove the propeller/hub in order to safely operate the engine during an attempt to power the radios/battery? Stikes me that the vibration and noise from a bent blade would be a powerful motivator to remove the prop altogether. Would AE & FN have had the tools & knowhow to do the job? What would it have taken? Just wondering how & why a propeller gets pulled off an engine. Andrew McKenna, #1045 ************************************************************** From Ric I'm sure that we have some forum members who can describe what would happen if you ever got a radial engine started with no prop attached. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:15:35 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Lambrecht & explosion We are interested because you mentioned Lambrecht's Gardner search was short, possibly only 10 minutes or so. What do you think about Walter Korsgaard's note that Artifact 2-2-V-1 indicates a "typical low-grade fuel/air explosion"? And if that were to happen near the batteries, would that rule out radio transmissions? And if the plane exploded 4 July or after (they should have had some fuel left), we are talking fire and something Lambrecht would have seen, no? ************************************************************* From Ric Randy Jacobson used 95 knots as the cruising speed for the Corsair (O3U-3) when he did his study of the attempt to find Winslow Reef. The airplane's "cruising speed range" would seem to be immaterial in a discussion of how long the airplane loitered over Gardner. We know the flight was catapulted at 0700 and was back aboard Colorado by 1000. Clearly they had sufficient range to make the flight that they made. We know that they went from the ship to Mckean, to Gardner, to Carondelet Reef, and back to the ship (now at a different location). The best you can do is measure the miles they covered against their estimated cruising speed and the time they were gone, and try to estimate how much extra time they had (total), then guess about how they divied up that time among the three locations examined. One rather large unknown factor is how long it took to land and recover the three airplanes when they were done. Lambrecht says only that they were back aboard by 10. I'm not sure we have enough information to make an accurate assessment of how much time they spent over Gardner except to say, "not very much." Everyone (NTSB and Korsgaard) agrees that 2-2-V-1 exhibits damage that was probably caused by the sudden application of a powerful fluid force to the interior surface of the skin. That fluid force could be air (as in the low grade fuel/air explosion Korsgaard described) or water (such as waves). Walter did not see the black combustion products he would have expected to see on the interior surface had there been an explosion. Of course, there has been ample opportunity for such material to be removed by the elements. My current opinion is that we're probably looking at water damage. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:18:22 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Radial engines Try these places for info on the Scintilla mags, etc.: www.radialengine.com. It's Holloway Engineering and they say they are antique radial engine specialists. www.outwest.net/~hhechter They say they have R1340 parts. Good hunting. Blue skies, -jerry(#2128) ************************************************************* From Ric Hmmmm. We'll give it a try. Thanks. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:23:35 EST From: Roger Kelley Subject: O3U-3 Mike Ruiz ask for info on the Vought O3U-3 Corsair. I offer the following from The Complete Encyclopedia of World Aircraft, 1997 edition, Barnes & Noble Books, page 900: 76 aircraft built. Max speed: 167 mph, Range: 680 miles. Engine: R-1340-12 (550 hp). Aircraft depicted in photograph on page 900 has the type desgination on tail as "O3U-3" and "Colorado" on mid fuselage. However, aircraft in photograph has duel wheels, tail wheel and arrester hook. Discription states that aircraft could be equiped with wheels or floats. The lack of range would indicate that unless the Colorado was close by , 50 miles or less, time over island for search would be very short, or if other islands were also to be searched, again time over island would be even shorter still. Roger Kelley #2112 ================================================================ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:25:00 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Tracking Noonan I talked with Richard Noonan of Studio City. He didn't really have anything more than he had already mentioned to Ric. He says his father was a cousin of Fred Noonan. His grandfather would have been a brother to Fred Noonan's father John Noonan. His grandfather (Thomas Francis) was born in Jersey City in 1864/63. Maybe Jersey is a place to start to search for records tieing this together by verifying Fred's father John had a brother named Thomas Francis. Does this make sense and does it really matter or help us get anywhere? Dick did give me the name of an old PanAm Clipper pilot who flew out of San Francisco. Unfortunately, he started flying there after Noonan's death and didn't know anything specific about Fred. But he was a kick to talk with. Blue skies, -jerry #2128 ================================================================ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:28:34 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Tracking Noonan In Susan Butler's book, "East To The Dawn", a good friend of Noonan's is mentioned to whom he sent letters while on the flight. Her name is Helen (Day) Bible and Ms. Butler says she interviewed her and used some of those letters. It occurs to me that Helen Bible may know something about Noonan's sisters and brothers. Do you have any connection with Butler? Or do you know about Bible? Must be my day to send you cyber messages. Blue skies, -jerry ************************************************************** From Ric No, we have no connections with Butler and we didn't give her book a very favorable review in TIGHAR Tracks. I don't know anything about Ms. Bible. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:34:53 EST From: Chuck Jackson Subject: XC-35 Yer old "friend" Ed Werner tells me that the one and only (I'm not sure I believe that) XC-35 is awaiting restoration at the NASM holding area in the Silver something area---I'm not an east coast guy---don't know the territory. Prob is ignition system may be special for high alt. work. Maybe some early D-18s around. I know one----at the antique a/c museum next to south county apt.---1 hr. s of SJC---I'LL CK IT OUT. It's sittin out back. Also, I'll check with a P&W rebuilder @ SCK who is called Mr.Pratt & Whitney of northern Calif. **************************************************************** From Ric Ed is right. There was only one XC35 built and its sitting in storage at "Silver HIll", the old name for the Smithsonian's Paul E. Garber Facility (I'm an East Coast guy). I know the folks there pretty well and I've climbed all through the XC-35 before, but I wasn't looking at magneto wires. Maybe I'll pay her another visit.