Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 9   Go Down

Author Topic: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?  (Read 157767 times)

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2012, 03:53:56 PM »

Didn't the credibility factor of some of these transmissions depend on the low and high tides at Gardner on the dates and times concerned?
How do the teenage hoaxers fit in with these tide dates and times?
Coincidental exact match or random?
Or am I talking a load of bull#*#t ?
At the symposium, Ric put up a graphic showing the state of the tide in relationship to the messages. Has Ric put that graphic up somewhere on the website, I couldn't find it? That would answer these types of questions.

gl
Logged

pilotart

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2012, 04:35:00 PM »

Just how would a Hawaiian/Chinese ethnic America teenage boy sound imitating a lady from Kansas?

I believe the Island Colonist's Transmitter was code only, no voice possible.  I read on the forum archive that they had a hand cranked 400 Volt Generator (from the Army) which must have been for their transmitter.

I think that their Battery powered receiver would receive voice as well, wonder how they charged their batteries?

From Ric:
Quote
November 07, 2011
We have a set of tide charts for the reef from July 2 to July 9 with the credible post loss signals overlaid. We're presently coding them up for publication on the TIGHAR website.  Get a good grip on your socks.

Earhart Project Research Paper
August 15, 2006
does show the tide level for each Transmission.
Art Johnson
 
Logged

pilotart

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2012, 04:41:35 PM »

Art Johnson
 
Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2012, 04:59:58 PM »

Thanks for the link Pilot and Jeff, I'll browse through 2moro to see if it sheds any light on this debate.
This must be the place
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2012, 06:21:44 PM »

Didn't the credibility factor of some of these transmissions depend on the low and high tides at Gardner on the dates and times concerned?
How do the teenage hoaxers fit in with these tide dates and times?
Coincidental exact match or random?
Or am I talking a load of bull#*#t ?
At the symposium, Ric put up a graphic showing the state of the tide in relationship to the messages. Has Ric put that graphic up somewhere on the website, I couldn't find it? That would answer these types of questions.

gl

Good call, Jeff and Gary -

Here is a link where the tide tables can be found.
I've seen that but it is not the graphic that Ric put up at the symposium, you remember what it looked like Jeff?

gl
Logged

dave burrell

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2012, 07:04:41 PM »

Just how would a Hawaiian/Chinese ethnic America teenage boy sound imitating a lady from Kansas?

Well It has been established that at most we are referring to a word or two. How many times did Jeff count? two instances, 4 words received by Professional operators?

Nobody heard Amelia Earhart reciting the Gettysburg address or even saying "this is Amelia Earhart". Not even that much.

Given that dialects are very subjective to each ear, and given that we know there were new zealand boats within the transmission range,
and Russian signals within the transmission range,
and British boats within the transmission range,
and Two islands within the triangulation, with high school boys whose voices were probably not mature and gruff,
and most of all a japanese radio station playing the hits of the 30's, with perhaps Tokyo rose(yes I know that is a WWII reference but there could have been a woman DJ) spinning the platters,
and possibly multiple Japanese vessels fishing since this area was near a prime whaling ground(lets not forget one Japanese fishing boat helped offered to search, so they were out there in unknown numbers),
I think it's safe to say given these 4 words, there are a fairly large number of sources that they could have originated from. Hearing from one of those numerous sources, an excited operator could exclaim "we have her!" (with a weak signal no less, and couldn't understand a word said)..

So the voice evidence is scant to be kind, by any reasonable definition of a pronouncement of an emergency.

Same with the Code evidence. Take 31057, 22 dashes that Bradenburg said was plausible to only come from Earhart.
Well Dr.Bradenburg doesn't know how many Japanese Tuna and Whaling Boats were there testing their equipment either.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Brandenburg/signalcatalog2.html

Bottom line, the Navy said it best, a lot of people were sending stuff, and  different nationalities were just doing their jobs catching fish, and piloting their boats, and operating their Navy craft, and were receiving and possibly transmitting on 3105. The rest of the world didn't stop for Amelia Earhart. There was no full sentence heard by anyone outside the mainland US(determined to be hoaxes). Except for famous Betty of course in Florida. Well even she didn't hear a full sentence, but Leaving out Betty, Are you sure a young Japanese or Chinese boy, or woman japanese radio broadcaster wasn't the source of these precious few fragments of words? One weak and barely heard word spoken by a woman Japanese broadcaster from thousands of miles away might sound like Amelia to an overactive and excited mind.
Just saying.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Brandenburg/signalcatalog2.html
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 07:17:56 PM by dave burrell »
Logged

Mark Pearce

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2012, 08:21:21 PM »

Very well done Dave.

The 'Sydney Morning Herald' published an editorial on July 10, 1937 that touched on some of the same areas you have introduced here. 

[...and this Tasmanian newspaper did the same on July 9, 1937]

FALSE CLUES.
MRS. PUTNAM'S PLIGHT.
A Psychological Study.
(BY A. PALMER.)

The disappearance of Mrs. Amelia Earhart Putnam, and her navigator, Captain F. J. Noonan, while flying across the Pacific from Lae (New Guinea) to Howland Island, and the subsequent deluge of false clues provided by amateur radio operators in various parts of the world, have provided psychologists with an interesting study in human reactions to disaster.

Immediately it was learned that Mrs. Putnam's 'plane had been forced down somewhere on the ocean within 100 miles of her destination, radio operators reported having received messages from the lost flier, giving her approximate position and describing her predicament. The reports were so conflicting, and in some cases so "realistic," that the officials were forced to conclude that they were either false or were the result of imagination on the part of those persons listening-in. This belief was strengthened when the Lockheed Company of America, manufacturers of Mrs. Putnam's machine, explained that if the airwoman had come down on the water it would be "utterly impossible for her to send out wireless calls." Only one conclusion remained, and that was that many of the radio operators who claimed to have heard messages were suffering from a "will to believe," and had imagined that they had been in touch with the lost flier.

NOTHING NEW.
This is no new phenomenon. It was amply demonstrated in New South Wales only a few months ago, when a search was being carried out for the Stinson monoplane of Airlines of Australia, which was subsequently found by Mr. Bernard O'Reilly in the Macpherson Ranges. On that occasion hundreds of messages were received by those conducting the search, and by the newspapers, from persons who had "heard the 'plane crash," saw it "flying south," or "burst into flames as it struck a hilltop," hundreds of miles from the scene of the disaster. A number of persons were convinced that they had seen it crash into the sea just north of Sydney. Many of the people who claimed to have seen the machine were reputable citizens, and were honest in their belief. How to account for their apparent certainty or awareness of something that did not exist will never be satisfactorily explained, unless it is described as a form of mental and optical illusion, conjured up by a hope that the persons in danger might be found safe- a form of self-hypnosis.

Many similar incidents can be found right through recorded history, and the writer has a vivid recollection of one of the most striking examples of how the mass mind can be influenced by this will to believe. The incident referred to occurred in London a few years ago. A prominent “'Plane Advertising Company” announced that it intended to carry out a height-judging competition for a well known London evening newspaper. An aero-plane was to fly over the city and the readers were to be asked to judge the height at which it passed overhead. The newspaper published beforehand full particulars, of the times and routes over the city which the company had contracted to fly. Substantial prizes were offered, and consequently public interest was keen.

NO 'PLANE UP.
The great day arrived, but, owing to a heavy rainstorm, and forecasts, of dangerous flying conditions, the 'plane did not leave the ground. Nevertheless, to the amazement of the advertising company, and those associated with the newspapers, hundreds of replies were sent in to the competition, by persons who "saw the plane flying over the city." In all seriousness they estimated the height at which it had flown at figures varying from 50 feet to 7000 feet, and gave the time at which it passed certain points. An exhaustive inquiry proved that no aeroplane had flown over the area at any time during the day.

Several remarkable letters have been preserved complaining of the danger to the public of machines being allowed to fly over congested cities at "such a low altitude." There seems to be no doubt that many of the messages alleged to have been received from Mrs. Putnam during the last week were the result of a similar form of self-hypnosis, inspired by a deep and sincere desire on the part of the radio operators concerned, working under high nervous tension, to do everything possible to rescue a brave flier from imminent peril.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 08:33:39 PM by Mark Pearce »
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2012, 07:27:00 AM »

These assume that the ZULU times are correct.

83
Identifier    41512PY
Z Time/Date    1512 July 4
Local Time/Date    1512 GCT July 4 0312 July 4
Gardner Time/Date    0412 July 4

...

Bob says: "The Pan Am reports used GMT, and make no mention of local time, so we assume they used GMT as local time (catalog footnote 15).   We used GMT-11 for Gardner local time."

I don't know enough about the methodology of the catalog to say whether this is consistent with what they have done elsewhere.  If they are strictly recording the data in the "Local Time/Date" field, then it would be wrong for them to carry out a calculation to "fix" the record (the suggestion you have made in red).  1512 GCT (or GMT or UT or Z or whatever, more or less) seems to be what was in the record, and they have apparently correctly made the Z field identical to what is in the logs.

This is one of those things about which reasonable people may reasonably disagree.  When you do your own analysis, you may choose a different strategy than Ric and Bob have.
 
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2012, 09:24:00 AM »

OK, one last note from Bob:

"With one exception the local time entries for the Pan Am sites are correct.  The Pan Am reports use only GMT, and decisions about those signals do not depend on local zone time, so we adopted the convention of using GMT as local time for those sites.
 
"The exception is 41523PU, which incorrectly shows the local time as 0453-1600 July 4.  That should be 1523-1520 Z July 4.  We'll fix it.
 
"Gardner local time is computed as GMT-11, because we use Hull Island as the tide reference station for Niku tides, and the UK Hydrographic Office -- which provides tide hindcasts for Hull -- computes tides for GMT-11."
 
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2012, 03:43:18 PM »

OK, one last note from Bob:

"With one exception the local time entries for the Pan Am sites are correct.  The Pan Am reports use only GMT, and decisions about those signals do not depend on local zone time, so we adopted the convention of using GMT as local time for those sites.
 
"The exception is 41523PU, which incorrectly shows the local time as 0453-1600 July 4.  That should be 1523-1520 Z July 4.  We'll fix it.
 
"Gardner local time is computed as GMT-11, because we use Hull Island as the tide reference station for Niku tides, and the UK Hydrographic Office -- which provides tide hindcasts for Hull -- computes tides for GMT-11."
That is the strangest idea of "local time" that I have ever heard of and it must have been difficult for the personnel on Midway to have to eat lunch  at midnight as required by Brandenberg's clock saying that the middle of the night is twelve, noon local time. And the justification that they were just copying, without any changes, the logged time breaks down as they made up a time for the Gardner local time field calling it 11 hours behind Greenwich when it should be 12 hours behind Greenwich.

gl
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2012, 05:09:49 PM »

That is the strangest idea of "local time" that I have ever heard of and it must have been difficult for the personnel on Midway to have to eat lunch  at midnight as required by Brandenberg's clock saying that the middle of the night is twelve, noon local time. And the justification that they were just copying, without any changes, the logged time breaks down as they made up a time for the Gardner local time field calling it 11 hours behind Greenwich when it should be 12 hours behind Greenwich.

As I said, making a decision about how to report their findings is something about which reasonable people may reasonably disagree.

The fact that the radio logs were kept in Zulu says nothing about how other clocks were set on board the ship.

The reason for using 11 rather than 11.5 or 12 is that it makes it easy for them to work with their tide tables.  Having spent a couple of days working on the article on timezones, I know the value of getting information into some kind of standard format.

Since they have explained the arbitrary choices they have made, anyone who wishes to treat the data differently may do so by making their own arbitrary choices.  So long as both of you apply your own methods consistently, all should be well.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2012, 01:21:51 AM »

Another error in the data base:

118
Identifier    50916CS
Z Time/Date    0916 July 5
Local Time/Date    0116 July 5
Gardner Time/Date    2216 July 5     2216 July 4

gl
Logged

dave burrell

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #72 on: September 24, 2012, 03:42:27 AM »

One last point I missed during thread weave. I'll call it the howland of silence.
Quite catchy?.. ok maybe not. Anyhoo...

I started this thread to bring attention that the Islands at "ground zero" might be the most logical spot to look for where the transmissions were coming from. In Dr. Bradenburgs report (which is due proper respect,), a lot of transmissions were rated as "credible" in large part on the assumption that there was no other source possible for logistical reasons, that being no other radios transmitting on AE's frequency. Well I have shown there were radios in range able to complete the task. Two islands nearby and an unknown number of military and civilian boat traffic, as well as Japanese and Russian radio stations on 3105khz as well.(though of course Mainland Asia would not triangulate)

 Multiple stations using the 3105 frequency is a fact. So a fragment of speech, or a dash, could have come from any of those stations by intent or accident if in the right area.That is not speculation. Bradenburg considered Nicaraguan sources, but left off the Japanese military,boats, and Howland and Baker islands. What Japan had and where is unknown in 1937 and without that knowledge we cannot say with any degree of certainty any transmission is from the Electra.

Baker and Howland is where I started this hoax theory. Because they fit the triangulation area and had Ham sets. Japan is the huge variable because what they had and where it was at is the great unknown. One country alone could be the source of all these transmissions.

But I started at the Howland/Baker duo as the first possible alternative source, so I would like to clarify a point I was making on the islands; so back to the Ham operators and if they could pull off a hoax....
1. They had radios. They could listen and probably transmit to the required frequency. They had the means and opportunity with minor speculation.
2. Their actions were odd in hindsight. Motive? who knows. Excitement? Spite?
 Let's go back for a minute..
On day two of the loss, Baker finally chimes in and reports Amelia was heard BY VOICE. Not many voice transmissions were heard. What is odd is that it was reported from Baker to Howland to Itasca. It was listed as "delayed". So baker gets it, sends to his pal yum on Howland, who holds this information for another day, then sends it to Itasca. One of the very few voice transmissions from the electra, life and death, and it's delayed?  Now maybe there is a good reason for that, but I cannot think of one. That is a circumstantial event that can lead to the subjective opinion of accepting or rejecting the source.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Brandenburg/signalcatalog.html

But we also have something even more odd in my opinion going on with these two amateur stations on Howland and Baker. If you read the catalog, you will find most transmissions are picked up by the Itasca. Which makes sense, being as it was fairly close, say 400-600 miles from Niku? It was close. But Baker and Howland were even closer. The post loss catalog is a lot of Itasca hearing signals, but next to nothing from Baker and Howland.
Isn't that odd? Especially since it has been postulated that there were issues with the Itasca's recievers or attenna as a reason the Itasca could sometimes not hear a transmission a New Zeland or British Boat did hear. The Itasca may have not had tuned radios but the vast majority of transmissions were received by that old boat. A lot of fragments heard by the Itasca and her supposedy bad antenna or receivers. There was Amelia out night after night transmitting, too bad the only receiver within 500 miles had bad antenna right?.. well wrong.

We have the silence of Baker and Howland. How many did they receive? The closest radios. They both heard zilch as Amelia went further and further away from Howland to Gardner supposedly. They did not hear her frantic the first night after landing on a reef. Well we know of the one weird example just listed. The "delayed" transmission. I believe there was one other transmission received by these two islands.

Why?To speculate, the obvious answer is they were doing the transmitting.
The first "delayed" report Yum sent over after holding it a day might have been looked on with suspicion from the Itasca. They had not heard it. This young Chinese kid heard Amelia talking and the military had not?
Both of these two islands inactivity in this search, being the closet to Niku, is just weird. They were only 350 miles away. Lae heard Earhart 400 miles away. The Itasca was picking up signals all over it's search area. There were people in Toronto, Kentucky, getting Amelia hits. Not so much with the new Chinese operators at the scene of the crime so to speak. Not even a fragment on day 1. The theory of Baker being too close to hear,  may be theoretically feasible. I rather doubt it. That they were listening would seem  given the magnitude of the event and demands of the Navy.
Their logs prove they were receiving Japanese music on 3105khz.
But not a lot of Amelia activity after the one delayed report Yum turned in.
At the least, perhaps a study of the Ionosphere and propagation results could answer why Baker and Howland had so few receptions.

Just speculation? Yes and No.
No speculation in pointing out multiple sources for transmitting on the 3105 frequency. Baker and Howland were there. It is speculating that Howland , Baker, or the Japanese pulled a hoax, a transmission block, or innocent and accidental transmissions that were picked up in fragments and misinterpreted.

Yes a few possible transmissions triangulate close to Gardner. But there were other possibilites for each and every one of these transmissions besides Amelia.A boat searching for Tuna, or the Japanese wanting to check out our ships and response times, or it could be as simple as a disgruntled Chinese teenager on Howland/Baker.
They could all triangulate as well.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 05:51:19 AM by dave burrell »
Logged

dave burrell

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2012, 07:50:45 AM »

Well maybe Disgruntled is a bad term. I would say disinterested until Black woke them up.
Here is Jacobson
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/JacobsonDatabase/RADIOLOG/RADREST.PDF
Reading this all you hear is Itasca, over and over calling every station.
Howland wasn't involved. Even with the Howland DR down, they didn't jump to the plate to help.
After a couple days go by Itasca issues urgent message to Howland from Black. " Keep listening to 3105, keep the "boys' (his term), UP, and ready."
The way he was referring to the amateurs at Howland and Baker did not seem like he had high regard for them. Read it how you wish.
Black seemed irritated by them and wanted their help.
 
It seems to me that Black himself was asking why Howland wasn't reporting anything.  Then and only then, does Howland begin to get involved. They do their delayed report of hearing Amelia,  Yum begins to report on a continous wave that apparently was nothing, "near 3105". Yum begins to answer Itasca. Before it appeared he ignored Itasca.
The first two days it seems like Howland was not even there. Itasca could never reach them.
Hell maybe Lum was asleep, at one point he asks Itasca can he go sleep.

Throughout all that Baker is silent, even after Black intervened. Itasca is asking about Baker through Howland and nothing is received. I didn't find one transmission to Itasca from Baker.

So it could be a couple of things.
1. They were asleep or surfing during the flight. With dead batteries. Only after the big shots got involved did they begin to answer the radio. They then did the best job they could. Unfortunate they were not listening sooner while Amelia flew to Gardner.
2.Or two, they were doing the best job they could all along, but wanted to stay out of the way. Very Young, and didn't feel it was their place. They never heard anything regardless.

Neither scenario one or two precludes Yum getting excited after the Black transmission and starting to "create" stuff. He begins to add transmissions as a hoaxer does to be even more involved, a hero, or self hypnotized, realizing this is big time.

Baker never got involved in any event that I can find. No record of Itasca talking to them. Or hearing from them but once.

So does yum or baker get creative? I don't know. Is it possible he got involved and started to key in some dashes? Lapook says it's easy, you say it's not proven they could transmit.
I think they could transmit, nothing I have read says a Ham set can only listen on 3105 but not transmit as well. Gary knows more than moi, so I'll go with Gary on that.

If it is possible, then that is all I was stating. The Brandenburg report says there was no other source possible. I am stating there was. It may have been right under our noses, and it was possible.

As far as the Japanese, I wasn't saying the Japanese were transmitting from mainland Japan. Of course that is outside the triangulation. I was saying we have no idea of the Vessels or where they were at or their frequencies. They are unaccounted for. People talking about it being against the Federal rules are missing the point. IT"S JAPAN GEARING FOR WAR.
They definitely used that frequency, and we cannot account for their vessels,(or for that matter their new fortifications on Islands unknown) then they cannot be eliminated as a source.
You cannot put out a huge research paper saying this is signal is credible because it came on 3105khz, because we in America only use 3105 for aircraft, therefore the only plane in the area is AE. That is crazy.

Hooven thought it possible the Japanese were involved blocking American signals, I'll go one step further. It's possible they made American signals to watch our response and ship movements.
Improbable? That is another issue. We are asking if it was possible.
If we want to talk improbable let's discuss Miss Paxton In Kentucky hearing Amelia...
It was not impossible for these signals on 3105khz to be totally unrelated to Earhart.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 08:02:17 AM by dave burrell »
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Post loss Transmissions. Solved?
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2012, 04:21:33 PM »


I started this thread to bring attention that the Islands at "ground zero" might be the most logical spot to look for where the transmissions were coming from. In Dr. Bradenburgs report (which is due proper respect,), a lot of transmissions were rated as "credible" in large part on the assumption that there was no other source possible for logistical reasons, that being no other radios transmitting on AE's frequency. Well I have shown there were radios in range able to complete the task. Two islands nearby and an unknown number of military and civilian boat traffic, as well as Japanese and Russian radio stations on 3105khz as well.(though of course Mainland Asia would not triangulate)

 Multiple stations using the 3105 frequency is a fact. So a fragment of speech, or a dash, could have come from any of those stations by intent or accident if in the right area.That is not speculation. Bradenburg considered Nicaraguan sources, but left off the Japanese military,boats, and Howland and Baker islands. What Japan had and where is unknown in 1937 and without that knowledge we cannot say with any degree of certainty any transmission is from the Electra.


Their logs prove they were receiving Japanese music on 3105khz.

Just speculation? Yes and No.
No speculation in pointing out multiple sources for transmitting on the 3105 frequency. Baker and Howland were there. It is speculating that Howland , Baker, or the Japanese pulled a hoax, a transmission block, or innocent and accidental transmissions that were picked up in fragments and misinterpreted.

Yes a few possible transmissions triangulate close to Gardner. But there were other possibilites for each and every one of these transmissions besides Amelia.A boat searching for Tuna, or the Japanese wanting to check out our ships and response times, or it could be as simple as a disgruntled Chinese teenager on Howland/Baker.
They could all triangulate as well.
Mainland Asia does "triangulate," contrary to what you said, meaning that the bearing taken by Wake could well have been from a station located in China, Korea, Russia, or Japan, see attached chart. In fact, Japan is a couple of hundred miles closer to Wake than is Gardner. The Wake bearing could also have been from any station located anywhere within the ten degree bounded areas (or even larger areas, I am just using the plus and minus ten degree limits for convenience, larger areas are possible according to the official government publication that I posted before) from ships and islands, including Samoa, and Fiji is just outside the area. However, as I said before, you can not cross or "triangulate" bearings taken at different times and I am working on a detailed post to illustrate why that is the case.

gl
 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 12:41:01 AM by Gary LaPook »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 9   Go Up
 

Copyright 2024 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines Powered by PHP