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Author Topic: Confidence  (Read 83415 times)

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Confidence
« Reply #120 on: July 30, 2012, 06:01:48 AM »

I don't think that Bill was saying that at all - he was simply asking a question.

Is it possible to make statements in question form?

Are some questions more loaded than others?

Do you know how to play the question game?

Could I go on like this for some time, without ever using a declarative sentence?

Do you suppose people would get my meaning?

Did you notice that my reply to Bill was also nothing but questions?

When does a group of intelligent, dedicated individuals say:  "It doesn't exist - let's stop wasting time and bucks"?

... Would it be OK with you to allow them some time to review the high-definition tapes they are bringing home with them before declaring "it doesn't exist"?  Or would examining the data somehow be unintelligent and a sign of a lack of commitment to you?

If asking questions means making no commitments, why do you support Bill's questions and criticize mine?
LTM,

           Marty
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« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 06:03:56 AM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Confidence
« Reply #121 on: July 30, 2012, 07:15:28 AM »

Malcolm, I fail to understand your reasoning here. You cite anecdotal evidence, which you have on several occasions declared to be unreliable, as possible proof that the French crew may have been the first to fly from Paris to New York. Since they did not reach New York how can the reports be proof of something that did not happen? (my emphasis added)

Well actually it was TIGHAR who were the ones who started looking for that aircraft based on the anecdotal evidence, not I. But there is also a lot of anecdotal evidence used in TIGHAR's search for the Electra (Betty's notebook, the supposed aircraft wreckage sighted by the islanders on Nikumaroro, etc.) however I do find it rather a disappointment that nothing came of the TIGHAR search for the L'Oiseau Blanc despite TIGHAR's excellent efforts as it is an aircraft of great historical importance.

Malcolm, although it was very simple, you didn't answer my question.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Michael HALL

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Re: Confidence
« Reply #122 on: July 30, 2012, 07:42:12 AM »

I have not had time to read all the thread just the last page, but from the angle I am reading I think there is an assumption that if the plane was not found its game over, roll over, waste of cash move on.

If so this is not the case, the search is to PROVE AE landed there, not to bring up a decaying old plane in the hopes to find FN bones embedded in the back of the pilots seat.

Looking for a golden nugget of undisputible evidence is way more important in historic terms than bringing up whats left of a plane. This is not a salvage operation, its an operation to once and for allow AE's and FN memory to be laid to rest with diginity.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 07:44:54 AM by Michael HALL »
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Confidence
« Reply #123 on: July 30, 2012, 07:56:21 AM »


Malcolm, although it was very simple, you didn't answer my question.

My apologies - you are right it didn't reach New York, well not in any recognised way, but its historic importance lies in the idea that it may have actually crossed the Atlantic from Europe and reached the United States. It is that that would be interesting to ascertain. An incredibly brave endeavour.
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Confidence
« Reply #124 on: July 30, 2012, 08:00:18 AM »


Looking for a golden nugget of undisputible evidence is way more important in historic terms than bringing up whats left of a plane. This is not a salvage operation, its an operation to once and for allow AE's and FN memory to be laid to rest with diginity.

I think, given the chances of finding recognizable parts of the aircraft are pretty slim, that you may be right. Still we wait to see what the film shows.
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Confidence
« Reply #125 on: July 30, 2012, 08:24:18 AM »


My apologies - you are right it didn't reach New York, well not in any recognised way, but its historic importance lies in the idea that it may have actually crossed the Atlantic from Europe and reached the United States. It is that that would be interesting to ascertain. An incredibly brave endeavour.

Malcolm, you still hedged a bit here (my emphasis again), but I agree with most of what you say.

Thanks.
[/quote]

Well that was intended to be a bit tongue in cheek  ;D
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: Confidence
« Reply #126 on: July 30, 2012, 08:45:55 AM »

Malcolm Said
<<<<<
Quote
Well I must admit I took that as meaning that as TIGHAR didn't have the facilities to process and stabilize recovered parts then recovery was no longer an objective. But there is nothing wrong with simply locating and allowing others who have the facilities to do the recovery - although these days with national governments becoming more heritage conscious then the waters become murkier (pardon the pun).
>>>>>>

TIGHAR certainly does not itself have the facilities at the moment to process and stabilize an aircraft any more than we own a ship capable of conducting deep water searches, but as we've seen in Niku VII, they can be obtained for the right price.  We have done much research on the process that is required, consulting with the best experts on the subject worldwide that we can find, so we know what has to happen to prevent aircraft that have been in salt water for a long period from crumbling into bits once they're brought out of the salt water environment.
 
There are many museums willing to take possession of the P-38 once it has been recovered and conserved.  This presents the problem of just who is going to recover and conserve the aircraft - something that could take a couple of years and cost millions of dollars - just so it can be donated to the right home.  No museum is currently willing to pony up the money and risk having the conservation not work out as well as they'd like.  While the P-38 is historic - an authentic 8th Airforce combat aircraft - it simply hasn't been compelling enough to attract the kind of donations needed like the pursuit of some other aircraft have.

You are suggesting that we "allow others who have the facilities do the recovery" however there is no one yet with the right expertise and facilities who has stepped forward with the cash, but who is also willing to have the aircraft end up in a museum in its conserved state.  I'm not even sure that the private recovery world would be willing to spend what it will take, so in fact there may not be anyone who has the right facilities including expertise, technology, and cash to recover this aircraft and conserve it.  There are plenty of folks who would be willing to salvage the P-38, take what parts they can use including the all important data plate, and rebuild a flying P-38 around the data plate, which they would then claim was the "authentic" and "original" WWII aircraft.  Great for entertainment, bad for historic preservation.  Would be easy enough for TIGHAR to salvage it and sell the parts, but the end result doesn't match up with the founding mission and goals of the organization.

Just to complicate things further, the aircraft lies in the intertidal zone that experiences tidal swings of several meters which would make recovery challenging, and it happens to sit on the border between two nature preserves, one marine and the other shoreward, each controlled by a different governmental entity, so there are many jurisdictions that would all have to be in alignment before anything could move forward.  Oh, and the best place for conservation is in the US, but the Brits are a bit loath to let it leave their shores for fear it will never come back.  Murky waters indeed.

The P-38 in particular will be a very complex recovery and conservation.  Until all the moons are in alignment, it will probably stay where it is.  Thankfully that happens to be out of sight except for the occasional odd circumstances that result in her revealing herself.

All of this is to illustrate that TIGHAR hasn't abandoned planning of aircraft recoveries, we just want to do it professionally, and for the right reasons.

Andrew

« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 08:06:49 AM by J. Nevill »
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Confidence
« Reply #127 on: July 30, 2012, 06:52:51 PM »


All of this is to illustrate that TIGHAR hasn't abandoned planning of aircraft recoveries, we just want to do it professionally, and for the right reasons.

Andrew

Thanks Andrew - I'm glad that is clarified.
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Lauren Palmer

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Re: Confidence
« Reply #128 on: August 08, 2012, 03:15:02 PM »

To clarify, I do NOT mean the possible strut/assembly whatever that's pictured in the surf on the reef in the 30's - I was referring to some one else's claim that they found another different airplane part (claim to be wheel without tire) washed up higher (on the inlet to the lagoon?) and since vanished.  Said person claimed he didn't mention it previously because he thought TIGHAR already had been notified of it's presence (!)  And now I can't find the reference, it's still hard for me navigating around this fascinating site ...
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: Confidence
« Reply #129 on: August 08, 2012, 04:26:49 PM »

To clarify, I do NOT mean the possible strut/assembly whatever that's pictured in the surf on the reef in the 30's - I was referring to some one else's claim that they found another different airplane part (claim to be wheel without tire) washed up higher (on the inlet to the lagoon?) and since vanished.  Said person claimed he didn't mention it previously because he thought TIGHAR already had been notified of it's presence (!)  And now I can't find the reference, it's still hard for me navigating around this fascinating site ...
Lauren, there's an entry in Ameliapedia that mentions the so-called "Wheel of Fortune" that you're referring to.  Also, TIGHAR Research Bulletin #31 in 2003 gave the details about that vanished wheel.
LTM,

Bruce
TIGHAR #3123R
 
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don hirth

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Re: Confidence
« Reply #130 on: August 11, 2012, 10:34:26 AM »

Well, Lauren......Thanks for refreshing my aging memory regarding the WOF! 9 more days until the Discovery program and since we are in a bit of a 'limbo' until then, all are asked to humor my
thoughts/beliefs about the Niku landing. 1. The reef was definitely 'landable.' 2. Betty and the young man from Montana were sufficiently credible regarding their radio receptions. 3. Other
post loss signal monitors pretty much zeroed in, on Niku. 4. There was 'enough' remaining fuel
after "we're lost" to make Niku. 5. Dr. Stone's, WOF has a DISTINCT probability of being an
Electra component. 6. Various aluminum artifacts although not ABSOLUTELY proveable as Electra
connected are never the less, strong circumstantial evidence. 7. Emily Sikili's recollection of a
wrecked aircraft scenario is compelling. 8. The nessie photo (to me, at least) represents another
"compelling" factor. It would be interesting, if it could be done, to assemble and present this
compilation to a panel of judges or jury and see what the verdict would be.
dlh
 
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