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Author Topic: Speculating about Camp Zero  (Read 42770 times)

Malcolm McKay

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2012, 06:52:20 PM »

Malcolm

Out of curiosity, how big are your sheets of corrugated iron, and how much does one weigh?  How easy was it to lift and install on your shed?

I'm trying to find out where the Arundel buildings were located.  Unfortunately, when they were there in 1999, I don't think they had hand held GPSs like we did later on.

amck

Hello Andrew

They're about 6 feet long and about 2 feet wide. They're not heavy in the sense that an adult can easily lift them easily. If it was simply a matter of lifting one up and propping it on something like a tree trunk etc. to form a simply lean to shelter there would be no problems. Of course with my humble building effort I also made a light wooden frame and that required tools etc.

But as a temporary shelter, which I suspect is all any putative castaways would be thinking, then such a simple structure might suffice.

Malcolm
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2012, 05:36:50 AM »

I think Andrew's point here is, we are talking about AE, not ourselves. Was she capable physically to doing this, or was she a 'city girl" in a leather jacket? No offense to 'city girls', but I have the impression that AE probably wasnt a 'rough it' kind of girl. Camping, hiking, living off the land, like you might think someone from Kansas might be. I picture her as a socialite, kind alike Ginger Grant on Gilligans Island, and not Mary Ann.

In that respect---was she able to think about what needed to be done, and had she shown those capabilities in the past so we would KNOW she could do them? Just saying--
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2012, 05:57:59 AM »

We've seen the rusted remains of corrugated iron in several places on Niku.  The remnants of what we've found would seem to be bigger than 2x6, more like 4x6, and we've speculated how they got around the island given the bulky and heavy configuration, and yes, whether AE or FN might have moved them.  I think we researched this and came up with the weight of a 4x6 sheet of late 19th century corrugated iron coming in at something like 110 lbs, so carrying them about by oneself didn't seem very likely.  I'll have to go back and find the info.

How much does one of your 2x6 sheets of corrugated iron actually weigh?

Andrew
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2012, 06:32:13 AM »


How much does one of your 2x6 sheets of corrugated iron actually weigh?

Andrew

I suspect it differs in size from place to place and country to country or what it is used for. My pieces are roofing type corrugated iron, but I suspect for convenience that if it was used for walling then it would come in larger widths and gauges. As to weight I'm afraid I have never weighed it but I could easily pick it up. I'm not especially muscular or tall, but it wasn't difficult - in fact I could hold a sheet with one hand by its edge if I balanced it in the middle. The only difficulty I had was that if the wind got up its tended to become difficult to handle. Another point with 19th century corrugated iron was that it was made to a width and length that could easily fit on the horse drawn wagons of the period - have a look at pictures from the mining camps of the period and you will see what I mean, especially pictures of the buildings attached to mining operations. 

For the purposes that I am thinking of someone who might use it for shelter it would be a matter of propping it up as a lean to against a tree trunk perhaps, and perhaps laying another sheet over it at the edge using the corrugations as a means to align the sheets. However without any tools it would be at best a rough shelter - one would I suspect have to weight the sheets with rocks or rubble at the bottoms and fond some means of tying them down to stop the wind from lifting them. But that would be better than nothing and would keep one out of the sun.

A rough shelter like this could easily be missed in the clearing of the Arundel area for planting coconuts. Which brings us back to the location of the Arundel camp - any luck on that? I am unconvinced, as you would be aware, that there is evidence at the Seven Site of anything other than sporadic transitory occupations over the span of the entire settlement of Nikumaroro, however I doubt if Earhart or Noonan if they were on Nikumaroro at all would have been willing or able to transport sheets of corrugated iron there.

But would there be a point to doing that? The Arundel area seems as good a point as anywhere for a camp if they were there and much closer to the natural landmark of the Norwich City wreck, and as regard to resources is there any real difference between there and the Seven Site. It seems to me, but I could be wrong, that the Arundel area doesn't seem to have been explored thoroughly even given the obvious disturbance that might have occurred during the PISS clearances making it a very difficult task. Another question is how open was it in 1937, had it completely reforested itself or were there still bare areas or areas of thin scrub, that might have made a better and easier camp location.       
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 06:41:07 AM by Malcolm McKay »
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George Pachulski

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2012, 06:42:03 AM »

I've wondered if there was a camp zero ? ever. They may have been too busted up from landing on a broken flat reef to get out of the plane and it and all was washed out to sea.  The odd bits like sextant cases, floatsom bits o wing etc were all that was left after the big wave sucked em under to parlez with davey jones .........
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2012, 06:56:42 AM »

I've wondered if there was a camp zero ? ever. They may have been too busted up from landing on a broken flat reef to get out of the plane and it and all was washed out to sea.  The odd bits like sextant cases, floatsom bits o wing etc were all that was left after the big wave sucked em under to parlez with davey jones .........

Well I'm the house sceptic as everyone is aware and you may have a point. I'm actually pursuing this line as much as to finding where the Arundel settlement was as arguing that it was the location of a putative Camp Zero. But in the spirit of fair play I must concede that given the observations of the Navy search airmen about recent occupation, then, other than whatever might have been discerned regarding the Norwich City survivors' camp, the Arundel site seems to fit the bill of settlement traces. If it did have usable materials then it could have made a reasonable camp site.
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2012, 07:49:53 AM »

The 7 site, although turning up some odd artifacts that had numerous candidates for their existence at the site, doesn't seem to be the logical location for a newly arrived out of gas plane crew. I can see it has its benefits, nice and cool, access to lagoon and sea, turtles, fish, birds, shade and so on. But if you are waiting to be rescued you would want to be in the vicinity of things that are easily spotted from the air, the NC wreck and your plane (while it was still a plane as opposed to a submarine).
The 7 site seems to be the place to be when all hope of rescue has gone and of course, a nice place to relax for the islanders, loran station crew and, whoever else fancied a nice relaxing BBQ. As Malcolm mentioned there are probably layers of occupation there.
Camp zero, if it existed, which would be likely under the circumstances, is the place to find artifacts that could only have come from AE, FN and Electra.

All IMHO of course
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George Pachulski

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2012, 08:10:19 AM »

All the camp 7 stuff discovered could have been floatsam from the now gone plane that washed down thru the lagoon to the site. Boots , boxes and bottles. There some half-caste put em on till the poisoned fish got him during a drunken rain dance.

Likewise all the plane pilot admitted to seeing were "markers" that someone was there , like maybe the water collection device on the east side? or did he really flyover Gardner at all?  There was room for a pilot and an observer , but no doubt the observer was not there to save on weight and fuel .

But that is all gone now -- even  the water device . So far there is no definative evidence and it would be very hard to find after 80 years of the habitation of the island by one or two people for a few months.

The water collection device was well within the capability of FN if he was well and had some time to make it. Probably only caught bird droppings on this desloate island though.
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2012, 12:07:57 PM »

Jeff
My take on the camp zero scenario being in the over wash area...
They wouldn't have known that and...
If they removed anything heavy from the plane it may still be there. Being heavy would have kept it from being washed away?
Tools?
Sextant?
Axe?
Radio?
Battery?
It's just a theory and of course, open to debate.
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George Pachulski

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2012, 12:16:21 PM »

Please realize that a 100 ton boiler from the Norwich ended up in the lagoon after one particular storm in the 2000's decade. You'd have to be big and very heavy to leave a mark ....
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 12:18:05 PM by George Pachulski »
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2012, 12:19:51 PM »

I'll have to admit I didn't notice that George. Any images of it sat in the lagoon? Did it show up on the sonar sweeps of the lagoon?
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2012, 12:37:39 PM »

I'll have to admit I didn't notice that George. Any images of it sat in the lagoon? Did it show up on the sonar sweeps of the lagoon?

The boiler is pointed out in the helicopter video of Niku.  As I recall, it's shown on the beach along the southern shore of the lagoon and west of Baureke Passage.
LTM,

Bruce
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2012, 01:16:09 PM »

Is this the boiler in question Bruce?
I can't find anything else about a boiler in the lagoon.
One good thing to note though is the direction that the heavy debris is moved after being overwashed, towards the lagoon/island not away from it. That's promising.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/32_SatPhoto/Nikusatphotopage2.html
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richie conroy

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2012, 02:29:39 PM »

in the black square is were i think the huts with galvanized roofs were according to this report

here is link to Norwich city report of T. Thomas

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Norwich_City/NorwichCity5.html
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2012, 02:30:44 PM »

Not a boiler, but a large steel tank from the NC got washed down the reef flat and through the channel ending up along the shore of the lagoon near Kanawa point.  This thing floated in, it wasn't somehow carried across the island by over wash.

See photos below.

Andrew
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