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Author Topic: Norwich City  (Read 62335 times)

Erik

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2011, 08:50:55 AM »

The 'black rats' was actually from another newspaper article - sorry.  Does 'black' have any significance that may worth pursuing?  If so, can we post a snippet of copyright material?

Yes, you may quote snippets of copyright material.  It's called "fair use."

Not that I'm sure we can draw any inferences from black rats myself.

I fear it is me just knit picking, black rat could be a rat that is black in colour or The Black Rat

The Polynesian Rat can also be black in colour.

Maybe the dog wasn't the only animal survivour from the vessel and Black Rats got off the ship.  Their not there now though.

The AP report originiated in Sydney.  For what it's worth deciphering the 'black' terminology.
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JNev

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2011, 10:02:27 PM »

"Hardship on Gardner Island" is a fascinating read, thanks for that Eric.

One thing that struck me was the description of what was happening to the ship while the surf pounded it, as witnessed and described: the continued destruction of the ship by forces of surf against ship and reef.  The fuel oil tanks ruptured and started the fire that lent more rapid ruin to the hulk.

Imagine an Electra in that place under a similar attack...

LTM
Except the plane was not out in the surf line or it would have been destroyed before sending out any radio messages.

gl

We don't know that it wasn't in the surf line, or near enough to be overtaken as surf and winds may have later risen.  The winds were high and surf up in the case of the Norwich City, if I understood the article correctly.

Anyway, the point is that it is not hard to imagine destructive forces acting on such a craft after considering what was reported aboard Norwich City.  I think it's quite possible that NR16020 could have rested for some time in more placid conditions only to be overtaken by more destructive forces in a rising surf sometime later. 

I believe it has been discussed that post-loss transmissions appear to have stopped sometime before the navy overflights, so obscuration or disappearance of airframe into the surf by the latter time may well have been the case - and one possible reason for cessation of transmissions.

LTM -
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2011, 11:11:19 AM »

Last credible post loss transmission was 8.18 pm on Wednesday night. Overflight was approx 38 hours later on Friday between 10am and noon. All local Gardner island time.  Plane went from being able to run the right engine and crew were able to transmit. 38 hours later the aircraft is not seen by aerial searchers. 
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2011, 12:00:27 PM »

It has been speculated that the Electra may have been slowly pushed towards the edge of the reef flat during the first days on the island. Aircraft still able to run its engine and transmit during this period. Then during the window of Wednesday night to Friday noon it finally went over the edge.  Maybe during a high tide. Then, because it's close to the reef edge the breaking surf action would have obscured the aircraft from overhead surveillance.  The timing of this all happening just before the search is probably yet another one of those small misfortunes that just added to the litany of errors.  Such a shame.

In fact the whole disappearance happened in a short period of time. In a matter of hours AE and FN went from closing in on Howland to gone. It wasn't days or weeks. Just hours. 
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2011, 01:50:33 PM »


Irvine John
The real shame is that, faced with the binary choice of searching in the NW quadrant or the SE quadrant (running N and S on the line 157/337), the Itasca and later the Navy went NW.  Had the Itasca gone  SSE on the line 337 to 157 at about 18 knots they might have arrived at Gardiner in 20 hours ( at about 0700 or 0800 Howland time Saturday 7/3). Assuming they got underway around 1100 or 1200 7/2.  Poor communication by AE in not giving a heading in her last transmittal (0843 Itasca time).  Apparently, that was her style, she couldn't be bothered with such mundane details.  Pity.
Relative to the last radio transmission at 2018 Wednesday 7/7,  As far as I know, It isn't known whether the engine was running at that time or not, the radio could have been operating on its previously fully charged status from a previous day.  I am suggesting that they had run out of fuel to run the starboard engine and the radio was operating on slowly discharging bateries (I don't know how long the batteries could last when only powering the transmitter, perhaps someone here knows?)
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2011, 02:28:59 PM »

LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2011, 03:17:58 PM »


Marty
Thanks for that link.  Excellent analysis from which I gathered that the batteries alone could provide enough juice to operate the transmitter for 90 minutes from full charge to zero charge. It was interesting to note that the total transmission time for all post-loss radio transmissions was about 940 minutes or so (15 hours and 40 minutes or so)  At 6 gallons per hour fuel usage at 900 rpm on 1 engine that would represent a total fuel usage of 94 gallons.
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2011, 04:47:56 PM »


Marty, all
My previous post was wrong about total time of the post-loss transmissions.  The total time was 451 minutes (7 hours, 31 minutes). At 6 gallons per hour that represents 45 gallons ir so.
Sorry, my bad.
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LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2011, 06:23:52 PM »


Marty, all
My previous post was wrong about total time of the post-loss transmissions.  The total time was 451 minutes (7 hours, 31 minutes). At 6 gallons per hour that represents 45 gallons ir so.
Sorry, my bad.

Harry, is that calculation just for the credible post loss signals?
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2011, 08:36:37 PM »


Irvine John
Good Point!  The 451 number is the  total for the Dredible Post-Loss Receptions.  I'll have to look around for tthe total total number.  Perhaps that's why the 941 number of my previous post stuck in my mind but don't hold me to that yet  hehe
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richie conroy

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Greg Daspit

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2012, 10:52:35 AM »

http://home.earthlink.net/~djackson24/TrampSteamer2.pdf
The link above has general information on Tramp Steamers

In studying it I noticed the decks below the forecastle had a collision bullkhead which may have helped stop the spread of fire. The lack of cargo in the number 1 hold could have slowed the fire too. Water running off the forecastle may have helped stop the fire too. The crew deck and ship store decks below the forecastle may have survived

 NZ wreck pictures indicate a wood superstructure just before the forecastle that was still there 9 years after the wreck and fire. I don't see how it was determined by the initial rescuers that the ship was"gutted forward" without boarding the ship? Maybe they used the term "gutted"like insurance companies used ""totalled" for cars. "gutted" could mean that it's not going to ever be salvageble for use again. It could still have valuable resources just like "totalled" cars.

What ever was left could make a good first home while waiting for rescue. Its high so you can search for ships to signal and get breezes from all directions, close to the plane wreck, easy fish to catch in the hold per Bevington's report, and rainwater could be collected from the deck scuppers and running off the deck.

Maybe some items they off loaded from the plane ended up on the ship and were later scavanged and thought to belong to the ship. Maybe Fred died there and that's why Amelia never returned. Scavengers may have thought his bones belonged to the shipwreck.

 Of course it would be hard to get to and from, noisy, structurally unsound, and the main reasons to stay there go away after it's clear rescue efforts are over.
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John Ousterhout

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2012, 01:17:13 PM »

Gregory,
would you be so kind as to direct me to the location of the wreck photos you mentioned that show the wood deck?  I'm sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate the help.  I tried searching the NZ report, but was only able to find a very few photos posted, none showing the forecastle area.
Also, you raise a very interesting idea, that if there was a suitable remaining place in the hull to camp, that any remains would be quite likely to have been scavanged by later visitors.  This might also raise some question about the age of the camp-7 visitors - why would anyone remain at camp-7 if there was a more comfortable place in the wreck?  Might the answer be as simple as it not being more comfortable, being an iron solar-oven?
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2012, 01:57:33 PM »

John,
The NZ pictures are all I could find. The forward superstructure I was discussing shows up in these 2 pictures. From the article, the "3 island" superstructures were typically wood. I believe it made the ship less top heavy and cheaper. The one that shows up right behind the forecastle was not there when the ship hit the bridge. It looks like a modification/ addition done when repairs were made.

In the picture taken from the reef, it shows up just left of the white bulwark. It is light colored and looks like it has several small portholes in it.

In the picture taken from the sea, it shows up as a big black rectangle, in shadow, blocking the view of the forecastle deck. That's why I don't understand why they could see the condition of the decks below the forecastle. I can't see them from the sea because the foreward superstructure blocks the view.

To clarify, I believe the superstructures were wood, not the main deck. The deck of the forecastle could be steel for added strength at the bow and to hold up the anchor gear there, at least the very most forward part of the forecastle deck likely was.

I would still like to see pictures of the starboard side from the Maude / Bevington survey to see if what looks like an "SOS" was there then. If those pictures exist in the Bevington scrap book?  I was trying to determine if the"SOS" wasn't there 3 months after AE dissapeared and was there in the NZ survey 1.5 years later? If it was AE, and if it is an SOS, then she was alive more than 3 months.

I agree it would be hot but maybe the breezes high up helped, cool water in the hold could help too. I think if they stayed there it was just a few weeks to watch out for rescue. When that became a lost cause she, or they, left the ship.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2012, 03:14:44 PM »

John,
What Dick Evans refers to in the quote below that he thinks was the bridge, is the superstructure I was referring to.

"Regarding the name Norwich City. As I recall the name could be read on the bow of the ship (1944) although it was not very plain. On one occasion several of us walked thru the hole torn in the port side of the hull and climbed up to the forepeak. From there we could see several places where the name was painted on equipment. For the next few months we threatened to climb back up and work our way to the bridge, which was in good shape. But like most things, this got lost in the scope-watching and similar exciting things we were doing. Don't know if this is any use to you or Lawrence, but there it is.
 
Dick Evans

From Ric

"Thanks Dick. This is really very interesting. You're correct, of course, about the hole on the port side and it would make sense that there would be features aboard that bore the ship's name. Whatever you saw as the bridge, however, must have been something else. Photos of the ship prior to the accident show a white-painted superstructure just forward of the funnel and a smaller structure further aft that are missing in Bevington's 1937 photos of the wreck. These seem to have been of wooden construction and were consumed in the fire that engulfed the vessel at the time of its stranding."
3971R
 
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