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Author Topic: Amelia's past accident history  (Read 14691 times)

Randy Conrad

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Amelia's past accident history
« on: May 10, 2011, 11:44:16 PM »

I was just wonderin if any of you out there may have taken into account Amelia's past flying history and how many accidents she had? Especially the ones where she had forced landings, broken propellers, nose- over landings, and broken landing gears? I was glancing briefly at the Ameliapedia and briefly caught how many accidents she had to how many merit of achievements she had. It almost seems like Amelia had issues with landing? Ric, could this be the case with the Electra and how she has landed in the past!!! If this is the case, then this could explain the picture of the landing prop sticking out of the water. If the prop is indeed from the Electra, then this also could explain a roll-over landing possibly. Anyway, after seeing this past history it makes you wonder if she didnt make the same mistake twice (in this case 4 times). Now the next question is...and for all you avid pilots out there...What actually happens when you force a landing and what series of events take place when a plane goes into a roll-over landing? Do you come in really fast at a steep angle or shallow angle, or do you have your wings tilted too far to the left or right? Wanting to know??? Let's just say for example that Amelia did force the landing, and did experience a roll-over accident...what kind of damages would have been done to the Electra, and what would the outcome be possibly?
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2011, 06:06:00 AM »

I was just wondering if any of you out there may have taken into account Amelia's past flying history and how many accidents she had? Especially the ones where she had forced landings, broken propellers, nose-over landings, and broken landing gears? I was glancing briefly at the Ameliapedia and briefly caught how many accidents she had to how many merit of achievements she had. It almost seems like Amelia had issues with landing? ...

1. I wrote the Ameliapedia article on Earhart precisely to document a claim that Ric had made about the distribution of accidents and incidents during AE's flying career.  His observation in the e-mail Forum was that she seemed to have trouble every time she moved up in class to a more powerful or more complex aircraft, then became more competent as time went on (understandably).

Earhart never had a landing accident or incident with the Electra.  The timeline of the second round-the-world attempt shows that she made a lot of successful landings on that journey.  Her takeoff from Lae was masterful, in marked contrast to the disaster at Luke Field.  Earhart showed courage and self-discipline in getting the heavily-laden plane off the field, then letting it find its own equilibrium just above the ocean as they flew away from the field.  Her piloting instincts, in my view, were not all bad.

The entire Niku Hypothesis depends on the tacit assumption that Earhart could make a safe landing on the reef.  The post-loss radio messages seem to support the idea that she made a survivable landing. 

2. Please note how I have provided links to the pages on the website so that newcomers to TIGHAR can find what is being discussed in this thread.  Would you be so kind as to learn how to do the same?  This saves people from trying to guess where the information you found is located.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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James G. Stoveken

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2011, 08:29:10 AM »

What actually happens when you force a landing...

I'm not quite sure that you understand the terminology.  A "forced landing" is not something a pilot does.  It's something he/she is "forced to do" because of some adverse situation... usually a loss of power.  In Amelia's case, TIGHAR believes that her landing on Niku was accomplished with power (the engines were still running) and the landing would have been much the same as if she had landed on an actual runway. (The reef landing)  It was only a "forced" landing in the sense that at that point she had no other options.
Jim Stoveken
 
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Rich Ramsey

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2011, 10:57:48 AM »

You are assuming of course that she still had power. How does one know if she landed at Niku (following our hypothesis)under power or not? It is entirely plausible that they searched the islands for their landing strip and picked Niku only when they had no other option (IE ran out of gas). This would also explain the fact that there was no fire and they were able to send messages out on the radio.
"Hang Tough"
Rich
 
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Mona Kendrick

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2011, 11:33:10 AM »

When you're low on fuel, as she said she was, you don't shop around amongst islands separated by hundreds of miles looking for the best one.  You take the first island you find.

Mona
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2011, 12:30:19 PM »

You are assuming of course that she still had power. How does one know if she landed at Niku (following our hypothesis)under power or not? It is entirely plausible that they searched the islands for their landing strip and picked Niku only when they had no other option (IE ran out of gas). This would also explain the fact that there was no fire and they were able to send messages out on the radio.

They needed fuel to run the engine to recharge the batteries to use the radio.
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Dan Swift

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2011, 09:26:48 AM »

Shoot, kicked me off in the middle of this post.  So if it appears twice.....sorry in advance. 

AE was probably a good enough pilot to land on the reef, and a bad enough pilot to try it.  But she may have had no choice depending on fuel situation.  Pure speculation, but if I see a smooth reef, and large landmark (Norwich City) that can be used for ID of location purposes, I am thinking I won't be there too long.  In fact, it may be even inhabited.  So, low on fuel (this would have been a few hours after they thought they were near Howland), set her down and figure this out.  Again, pure speculation. 
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david alan atchason

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2011, 10:20:38 AM »

I was reading a little of Carol Linn Dow's comments yesterday. She claims that the Coast Guard men stationed on the island during the war spent much of their downtime time exploring the island just for something to do. I'm wondering what they thought and said. I don't recall reading any interviews with any of them or don't remember what was said. Did they mingle with the islanders? Did they hear any stories from the natives? Did any of them have any clue that Amelia might have landed on Gardner? I assume they never noticed any peculiar wreckage off the reef or if they did, would they  have thought it was not noteworthy due to all the Norwich City parts lying around? Maybe Dow is wrong, perhaps they stayed entirely in their compound.
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 11:04:47 AM »

I was reading a little of Carol Linn Dow's comments yesterday. She claims that the Coast Guard men stationed on the island during the war spent much of their downtime time exploring the island just for something to do. I'm wondering what they thought and said. I don't recall reading any interviews with any of them or don't remember what was said. Did they mingle with the islanders? Did they hear any stories from the natives? Did any of them have any clue that Amelia might have landed on Gardner? I assume they never noticed any peculiar wreckage off the reef or if they did, would they  have thought it was not noteworthy due to all the Norwich City parts lying around? Maybe Dow is wrong, perhaps they stayed entirely in their compound.

I think this will answer your question USCG_LORAN_Station

about half way down  :) 3rd Paragraph to be exact
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 12:13:35 PM by Chris Johnson »
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Alex Fox

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 12:11:41 PM »

I can't get that link to work...  :\
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2011, 12:12:39 PM »

I can't get that link to work...  :\

just fixed it.  Fear of the link police made me rush  :P

Editor's note: "Fear of the link police is the beginning of wisdom."  MXM, SJ
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 04:39:14 PM by moleski »
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Alex Fox

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2011, 12:36:17 PM »

just fixed it.  Fear of the link police made me rush  :P

Thanks! 

Quote from: dubious wikipedia article
In March 1946 a Coast Guard work crew disassembled and secured the station's LORAN gear in the quonset huts which had been used as living quarters. A member of this crew, Chief Carpenter’s Mate Floyd Kilts, later (1960) told a San Diego newspaper reporter that one of the Gilbertese told him of "the skeleton of a woman with American shoes and the skull of a man" found by the island's first settlers in 1938.

Hmm... Skeleton of a woman with the skull of a man.  Sounds like Yeti or chupacabra type stuff.  Amazing how storeis change over time.  Ever played that game where a large group of people whispers something in each other's ears and by the end of the circle the story has morphed into something asininely different?  Sounds like the Gilbertese played that game.
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david alan atchason

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2011, 01:13:55 PM »

I read that link and still have questions. Neither the PBY pilot nor Floyd Kilts were stationed there when the post was active. It says the commander of the station ordered the men not to fraternize and not to leave their area. Did anyone ever attempt to find a member of the crew stationed there to see if the men actually never crossed over their perimeter or "fraternized" with the natives? It makes me wonder. If they strictly obeyed orders then it makes Carol Dow an inventor of stories. Where did she get her info? Did she talk to any of the crew? Kilts account makes it sound like they found the skeleton of a woman (including skull?) and the skull of a man. I can't remember Gallaghers account, did he indicate there was an extra skull or am I simply very confused? (As usual) I'm trying to get a fix on the authenticity of Carol Dow. Has it already been proven she is most likely inaccurate or does she just have a different interpretation of the known information?
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david alan atchason

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2011, 01:43:45 PM »

Searching through the Loran links, I saw the request from Ric for any of the crew members to contact him. I guess no one did. Were the natives restricted to stay out of the CG area? I see that document from Lt. Sopko forbidding "push-push" with the natives. I gather this must be a technical term used in LORAN operations. What I'm getting at, of course, is that if the natives were friendly, they might have talked of how they retrieved aluminum airplane parts from a wreck that according to photographs was not visible.
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Amelia's past accident history
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2011, 01:45:48 PM »

I read that link and still have questions. Neither the PBY pilot nor Floyd Kilts were stationed there when the post was active. It says the commander of the station ordered the men not to fraternize and not to leave their area. Did anyone ever attempt to find a member of the crew stationed there to see if the men actually never crossed over their perimeter or "fraternized" with the natives? It makes me wonder. If they strictly obeyed orders then it makes Carol Dow an inventor of stories. Where did she get her info? Did she talk to any of the crew? Kilts account makes it sound like they found the skeleton of a woman (including skull?) and the skull of a man. I can't remember Gallaghers account, did he indicate there was an extra skull or am I simply very confused? (As usual) I'm trying to get a fix on the authenticity of Carol Dow. Has it already been proven she is most likely inaccurate or does she just have a different interpretation of the known information?

Recomended reading The Casterway

Read this, it should answer most of your questions
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