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Author Topic: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)  (Read 33278 times)

Chris Owens

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Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« on: May 03, 2011, 10:29:11 PM »


I presume someone has already checked into this item from the Purdue collection?



http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/earhart&CISOPTR=33&CISOBOX=1&REC=4
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2011, 05:30:20 AM »


I presume someone has already checked into this item from the Purdue collection?



http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/earhart&CISOPTR=33&CISOBOX=1&REC=4

Yes.  They wouldn't let TIGHAR test the rouge, so TIGHAR purchased its own Mondaine compact.
LTM,

           Marty
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2012, 07:24:20 AM »

It's  just a theory but, if you missed the first rescue planes when they flew over wouldn't it be wise to find a way of signalling to the next over flight of rescue planes? How about a mirror or piece of glass from the wrecked plane, that should get their attention. Of course the planes never returned so you were left with a make up compact on a deserted island?
In the military we all carried a small mirror, not for lookig at our ugly mugs but for signalling purposes, a piece of glass works just as well.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2012, 08:40:16 AM »

It's  just a theory but, if you missed the first rescue planes when they flew over wouldn't it be wise to find a way of signalling to the next over flight of rescue planes? How about a mirror or piece of glass from the wrecked plane, that should get their attention. Of course the planes never returned so you were left with a make up compact on a deserted island?

In the military we all carried a small mirror, not for looking at our ugly mugs but for signalling purposes, a piece of glass works just as well.

This argument makes perfect sense to us in "our" day.  As a boy 50 years ago, I had an army surplus mirror on a compass.  The mirror had a hole in the middle to help use to aim it at search aircraft or other interested parties, and my Boy Scout handbook hand instructions on how to use such a mirror to signal for help.

Here's how to push your idea forward as something tenable: can you find any evidence in the literature of the 1920s and 1930s about such use of signal mirrors?  How far back does this survival idea go?  Is it likely that AE or FN knew this? 

At the end of the helpful research, we would still be making a "coulda, woulda, shoulda" argument, at best.  So long as we indicate that we are using a very weak argument, and don't inadvertently cross the boundary from what they might have done to speaking as if this were an established fact, it may still be thrown into the hopper of possible explanations for finding remains of a compact at the Seven Site.
LTM,

           Marty
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2012, 09:09:39 AM »

It's  just a theory but, if you missed the first rescue planes when they flew over wouldn't it be wise to find a way of signalling to the next over flight of rescue planes? How about a mirror or piece of glass from the wrecked plane, that should get their attention. Of course the planes never returned so you were left with a make up compact on a deserted island?

In the military we all carried a small mirror, not for looking at our ugly mugs but for signalling purposes, a piece of glass works just as well.

This argument makes perfect sense to us in "our" day.  As a boy 50 years ago, I had an army surplus mirror on a compass.  The mirror had a hole in the middle to help use to aim it at search aircraft or other interested parties, and my Boy Scout handbook hand instructions on how to use such a mirror to signal for help.

Here's how to push your idea forward as something tenable: can you find any evidence in the literature of the 1920s and 1930s about such use of signal mirrors?  How far back does this survival idea go?  Is it likely that AE or FN knew this? 

At the end of the helpful research, we would still be making a "coulda, woulda, shoulda" argument, at best.  So long as we indicate that we are using a very weak argument, and don't inadvertently cross the boundary from what they might have done to speaking as if this were an established fact, it may still be thrown into the hopper of possible explanations for finding remains of a compact at the Seven Site.
Yes Marty, will do. The point I was trying to show was that finding evidence of a ladys make up compact on a deserted island was more likely to be down to trying to be rescued rather than making their face look acceptable  ;)
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JNev

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2012, 11:52:58 AM »

A wiki article suggests native indians used mirrors, but I found no real reference.

I found in a thread elsewhere that the Coast Guard published some interesting information from WWII which suggests that U.S. conceptions may have still been somewhat immature in AE's time, but a war time event may have advanced the idea dramatically -

"...1944 book also suggests a single occurence:

http://www.archive.org/stream/firstfleetthesto011061mbp/firstfleetthesto011061mbp_djvu.txt

Full text of "First Fleet The Story Of The U S Coast Guard At War"

The Story of the U. S. Coast Guard at War-

REG INGRAHAM

INTRODUCTION BY SECRETARY OF THE NAVY FRANK KNOX

THE BOBBS-MERRILL COMPANY

Publishers
INDIANAPOLIS NEW YORK

pp. 260-261

"The majority of the Coast Guard's wartime safety measures are based on careful analysis of the experiences and recommendations of a large number of survivors, but a few of them can be traced to individual occurrences.

One group of seamen, for instance, came ashore after a protracted period in a lifeboat and it was discovered they had been overlooked repeatedly by patrol planes.

"We could see the PBY's [Navy flying boats] go by," they related, "but we were unable to attract their attention."

Finally one of them hit on an idea. Taking the bottom of a tin ration can, he fastened it to the blade of an oar and used it to flash the sun's rays back at the planes. This crude heliograph proved effective, too, and soon thereafter the Coast Guard made it mandatory for all lifeboats to be equipped with polished steel signaling mirrors.
They are somewhat more elaborate, of course, than the piece of tin can fastened to an oar blade, and each mirror is accompanied by simple instructions for sighting it so as to give the maximum chance of the signal being seen. "

========================================
The text above was also verified by searching each paragraph to verify it as being present in the Google Books online "snippet view" version here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zRnTAAAAMAAJ

..."

I don't think I really advanced this topic, but maybe it can be a useful starting reference for Jeff Hayden or someone to follow-up on.

LTM -
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2012, 12:06:58 PM »

A wiki article suggests native indians used mirrors, but I found no real reference.

I found in a thread elsewhere that the Coast Guard published some interesting information from WWII which suggests that U.S. conceptions may have still been somewhat immature in AE's time, but a war time event may have advanced the idea dramatically -

"...1944 book also suggests a single occurence:

http://www.archive.org/stream/firstfleetthesto011061mbp/firstfleetthesto011061mbp_djvu.txt

Full text of "First Fleet The Story Of The U S Coast Guard At War"

The Story of the U. S. Coast Guard at War-

REG INGRAHAM

INTRODUCTION BY SECRETARY OF THE NAVY FRANK KNOX

THE BOBBS-MERRILL COMPANY

Publishers
INDIANAPOLIS NEW YORK

pp. 260-261

"The majority of the Coast Guard's wartime safety measures are based on careful analysis of the experiences and recommendations of a large number of survivors, but a few of them can be traced to individual occurrences.

One group of seamen, for instance, came ashore after a protracted period in a lifeboat and it was discovered they had been overlooked repeatedly by patrol planes.

"We could see the PBY's [Navy flying boats] go by," they related, "but we were unable to attract their attention."

Finally one of them hit on an idea. Taking the bottom of a tin ration can, he fastened it to the blade of an oar and used it to flash the sun's rays back at the planes. This crude heliograph proved effective, too, and soon thereafter the Coast Guard made it mandatory for all lifeboats to be equipped with polished steel signaling mirrors.
They are somewhat more elaborate, of course, than the piece of tin can fastened to an oar blade, and each mirror is accompanied by simple instructions for sighting it so as to give the maximum chance of the signal being seen. "

========================================
The text above was also verified by searching each paragraph to verify it as being present in the Google Books online "snippet view" version here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zRnTAAAAMAAJ

..."

I don't think I really advanced this topic, but maybe it can be a useful starting reference for Jeff Hayden or someone to follow-up on.

LTM -

Thanks for the pointer Jeff. I will follow up on what to some may seem a trivial pusuit but, it all adds up.
Jeff
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2012, 01:04:43 PM »

Yes Marty, will do.

Great!

Quote
The point I was trying to show was that finding evidence of a lady's make up compact on a deserted island was more likely to be down to trying to be rescued rather than making their face look acceptable  ;)

It is a conceivable explanation and worth investigating to see what AE and FN might have known in 1937.

Others are possible and not mutually exclusive. 

It may have been comforting simply to have a souvenir of happier times.

AE might have used the powder or rouge as a primitive sunscreen, if her mind ran along those lines.

I imagine that if I were lost in the wilderness and had a mirror with me, I might look at myself in it from time to time to see how I was doing or just to pass the time.  I've been lost a few times on hikes in quite benign territory, and not all of my choices in those circumstances were completely rational.  People have different tastes and temperaments--and there is no accounting for taste.

My own long-standing conviction is that if the debris found by Gallagher was hauled there by AE and/or FN, there ought to have been a journal and a pencil to write in it.  That seems to be something common to many survivors--or, rather, often found among those who survived a long time before dying.  Backpackers worry about extra ounces, but I can see why AE or FN might have thrown the compact into a handy box before setting out to explore the island.

LTM,

           Marty
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2012, 02:44:25 PM »

WW2 era USAF Survival Guide

online version

Mentions mirrors for signaling, nothing about checking your makeup though  ;D
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2012, 03:51:56 PM »

WW2 era USAF Survival Guide

online version

Mentions mirrors for signaling, nothing about checking your makeup though  ;D

Heh heh.

I now remember having read a 1910 survival guide, where I think I first learned about the inadequacy of a rabbit-only diet.  Rabbits have too little fat to keep humans alive as the sole source of nourishment.

I don't remember where I found the guide, nor whether it might still be on my shelves somewhere.  If I'm remembering correctly (and that is a big if), then it does suggest that there was "survival literature" long before 1937.

I love this line from your source: "Stay clam. This is the primary role for any emergency."  Sounds like good advice, if you know how to "stay clam."
LTM,

           Marty
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Bruce Burton

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2012, 04:31:55 PM »

I love this line from your source: "Stay clam. This is the primary role for any emergency."  Sounds like good advice, if you know how to "stay clam."

Perhaps, clams have a higher fat content than rabbits.  ;)
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Dale O. Beethe

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2012, 04:45:49 PM »

For what it's worth, the Army used a fairly extensive heliograph system in the Southwest during the Apache campaigns of the 1880's.  I realize that says nothing about whether AE or FN knew anything about using mirrors as a signalling device, but such things were known and used well before 1937.
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JNev

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2012, 07:42:22 PM »

I think abundant evidence that the method has been used for a long, long time can be found - but the army having used it (as did native Americans, supposedly) and the Coast Guard having to learn of it the hard way a half-century later suggests a lack of continuity in knowledge of it's use among our own institutions.

It would help to understand how well the method might have been codified into the minds and institutions that would have reached AE and FN.  We will probably never know with any certainty - but it does appear worthwhile to try to understand how likely AE and FN might have been to realize the concept.  It could help fill in 'why' the compact was brought there.

I've also thought that even ordinary rouge might have some small sunscreen benefit, too - but I don't know.

We do know that AE had a habit of keeping compacts handy.  I think we also know through TIGHAR's research that what was actually found is consistent with a type of compact that she had owned.  That seems to be the vital link, but it does not alone advance our understanding of 'why'.
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
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John Ousterhout

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2012, 09:39:42 PM »

I've read (and agree) that the importance of finding a 1930's-era ladies compact on Niku was that it indicates the presence of a lady on the island in the late 1930's.  It is unlikely that any man on the island at any time would have left a 1930's-era compact.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2012, 09:43:48 PM »

I think abundant evidence that the method has been used for a long, long time can be found - but the army having used it (as did native Americans, supposedly) and the Coast Guard having to learn of it the hard way a half-century later suggests a lack of continuity in knowledge of it's use among our own institutions.

It would help to understand how well the method might have been codified into the minds and institutions that would have reached AE and FN.  We will probably never know with any certainty - but it does appear worthwhile to try to understand how likely AE and FN might have been to realize the concept.  It could help fill in 'why' the compact was brought there.

I've also thought that even ordinary rouge might have some small sunscreen benefit, too - but I don't know.

We do know that AE had a habit of keeping compacts handy.  I think we also know through TIGHAR's research that what was actually found is consistent with a type of compact that she had owned.  That seems to be the vital link, but it does not alone advance our understanding of 'why'.

Thanks Jeff. Do we have evidence that she had the habit of keeping compacts handy?  My wife just keeps hers in her purse and it goes where she goes.  Could it be as simple as this?  Purse or handbag goes ashore just because it's automatic to do?   I asked my wife what she would do with her purse if she landed on a desert island. She said because it contains her private life it would go ashore right away. I'm sure this will be disputed as non evidentiary because it's not already documented in TIGHAR somewhere. (Said tongue in cheek).

To John....  It can be argued that woman was not AE.  Not by me but others. I believe you need to adopt a policy of saying "What is likely?" when there is no evidence to point at.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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