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Author Topic: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)  (Read 33695 times)

John Ousterhout

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2012, 09:47:00 PM »

I didn't say AE.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2012, 11:46:20 PM »

That's correct John. You did not say AE.  Are you suggesting another lady?
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2012, 10:06:29 AM »

A wiki article suggests native indians used mirrors, but I found no real reference.

I found in a thread elsewhere that the Coast Guard published some interesting information from WWII which suggests that U.S. conceptions may have still been somewhat immature in AE's time, but a war time event may have advanced the idea dramatically -

"...1944 book also suggests a single occurence:

http://www.archive.org/stream/firstfleetthesto011061mbp/firstfleetthesto011061mbp_djvu.txt

Full text of "First Fleet The Story Of The U S Coast Guard At War"

The Story of the U. S. Coast Guard at War-

REG INGRAHAM

INTRODUCTION BY SECRETARY OF THE NAVY FRANK KNOX

THE BOBBS-MERRILL COMPANY

Publishers
INDIANAPOLIS NEW YORK

pp. 260-261

"The majority of the Coast Guard's wartime safety measures are based on careful analysis of the experiences and recommendations of a large number of survivors, but a few of them can be traced to individual occurrences.

One group of seamen, for instance, came ashore after a protracted period in a lifeboat and it was discovered they had been overlooked repeatedly by patrol planes.

"We could see the PBY's [Navy flying boats] go by," they related, "but we were unable to attract their attention."

Finally one of them hit on an idea. Taking the bottom of a tin ration can, he fastened it to the blade of an oar and used it to flash the sun's rays back at the planes. This crude heliograph proved effective, too, and soon thereafter the Coast Guard made it mandatory for all lifeboats to be equipped with polished steel signaling mirrors.
They are somewhat more elaborate, of course, than the piece of tin can fastened to an oar blade, and each mirror is accompanied by simple instructions for sighting it so as to give the maximum chance of the signal being seen. "

========================================
The text above was also verified by searching each paragraph to verify it as being present in the Google Books online "snippet view" version here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zRnTAAAAMAAJ

..."

I don't think I really advanced this topic, but maybe it can be a useful starting reference for Jeff Hayden or someone to follow-up on.

LTM -
Jeff
Didn't Eddie Rickenbacker and crew ditch into the pacific in a B17 and floated around for weeks while they saw search planes overhead unable to see them?
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2012, 01:08:15 PM »


Jeff
Didn't Eddie Rickenbacker and crew ditch into the pacific in a B17 and floated around for weeks while they saw search planes overhead unable to see them?

They did, Jeff, and here's one account.

Flares aboard the ditched airplane, but not a mirror so far as I can tell.  Eventually the rescuing airplanes did spot the men on the water anyway.  Maybe there's a lesson in there about surviving long enough against all odds so that one is finally spotted; another lesson for today is how valuable it might be to have a handy mirror!

LTM -
Thanks for that link Jeff. I had heard about it but never looked into the incident in any detail. Shame there wasn't a female member of crew aboard they could have used her compact case to signal.
Jeff
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2012, 02:46:31 PM »


Jeff
Didn't Eddie Rickenbacker and crew ditch into the pacific in a B17 and floated around for weeks while they saw search planes overhead unable to see them?

They did, Jeff, and here's one account.

Flares aboard the ditched airplane, but not a mirror so far as I can tell.  Eventually the rescuing airplanes did spot the men on the water anyway.  Maybe there's a lesson in there about surviving long enough against all odds so that one is finally spotted; another lesson for today is how valuable it might be to have a handy mirror!

LTM -

Thanks Jeff for that link. Great story of survival at sea. A good read.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2012, 10:32:00 AM »

Thanks Jeff

I did find references in the forum to someone who has two photos of AE holding a compact that is said to be similar to the pieces found.  However until I see those photos and can post them it is pure speculation. 
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2012, 11:03:54 AM »

Here is one link to a picture in 1934 where AE is getting a haircut.  She is holding a small mirror in her hand by her knee.  Naturally it can be argued that this mirror has nothing to do with her compact but as Gary says in another thread, perhaps we can make a reasonable inference.  It is up to the reader however to make that distinction.  I am hunting for the other picture now.  I don't believe the one in the link below is new to TIGHAR.

http://www.summitpost.org/carl%E2%80%90dunrud%E2%80%90giving%E2%80%90amelia%E2%80%90earhart%E2%80%90a%E2%80%90haircut%E2%80%901934/654501
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2012, 06:53:08 AM »

The thing that bothers me about finding evidence of a lady's make up compact on a deserted island is that it's not something you would expect to find on a desert island. Bits of sea going vessels, bits from the Loran station etc...I am sure the native female population during the colonisation period would have been interested in their appearance but, an American 1930's compact on a remote part of the island?
If it did belong to AE then I would be suprised if she thought she needed to look photogenic for FN or, any other possible passers by. After all the situation was by now looking a tad gloomy. A plane that can't be flown, a missed search plane over flight, lack of drinking water, an injured navigator?those bloody crabs etc...
Still, there's no telling what goes on in a females mind and I guess Marty could be right in suggesting that AE simply might have wanted to look her best. They do seem to carry an awful lot of kit around in their handbags  :)
Jeff


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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2012, 07:51:51 AM »

The thing that bothers me about finding evidence of a lady's make up compact on a deserted island is that it's not something you would expect to find on a desert island. Bits of sea going vessels, bits from the Loran station etc...I am sure the native female population during the colonisation period would have been interested in their appearance but, an American 1930's compact on a remote part of the island?
If it did belong to AE then I would be suprised if she thought she needed to look photogenic for FN or, any other possible passers by. After all the situation was by now looking a tad gloomy. A plane that can't be flown, a missed search plane over flight, lack of drinking water, an injured navigator?those bloody crabs etc...
Still, there's no telling what goes on in a females mind and I guess Marty could be right in suggesting that AE simply might have wanted to look her best. They do seem to carry an awful lot of kit around in their handbags  :)
Jeff

Just ask your own wives/partners about compacts and purses and the automatic nature of taking it everywhere with them.

I have thought about the likelihood of a coastie owning the compact. Stranger things are true but what is a reasonable inference?  I believe, IMHO, that the reasonable inference is it was a woman. A coastie may decide that women's cosmetics may be beneficial to his skin to provide skin protection or have some other medicinal effects. But would they carry it in a woman's style compact?  Not likely. A glass jar or a tin maybe but a compact would lead to some teasing. (putting it mildly).  It is not inconceivable that a coastie may have had a different sexual orientation and this compact was his connection to that side of his character. But in the 40's on a very small island it would have been difficult to explain a woman's compact in your possessions. My reasonable inference is a woman.

The Picture I linked previously shows a square compact mirror, the artifact is a square mirror.  How common were square mirrors vs round mirrors?  We know AE carried a square or rectangular compact. Was this shape common or uncommon?  The answer may help narrow this down. Off to Google.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2012, 09:32:11 PM »


The Boy Scouts of America was founded in England by Lord Pobert Baden-Powell in ?? and here in the US in February 1910 by William Boyce, Ernest Seton and Daniel Beard.

As a Scout in the late '40s/early 50s and as a Leader in the 70s I can attest that the use of a mirror as a signalling device was taught.  I am looking into whether Fred Noonan was a Boy Scout as a youth and might have had some wilderness survival training or whether Pan Am had any such trng for its crews.
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2012, 10:15:37 PM »


The Boy Scouts of America was founded in England by Lord Pobert Baden-Powell in ?? and here in the US in February 1910 by William Boyce, Ernest Seton and Daniel Beard.

As a Scout in the late '40s/early 50s and as a Leader in the 70s I can attest that the use of a mirror as a signalling device was taught.  I am looking into whether Fred Noonan was a Boy Scout as a youth and might have had some wilderness survival training or whether Pan Am had any such trng for its crews.

The US and British military used mirrors in their signalling systems starting in the 1860's.
Heliographs And a short history can be found here:  http://tlongpublications.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/heliographs/

Harry I think investigating the Pan Am survival training is a great idea.

I don't think it would have been a conscious act of taking the compact ashore to use as a signal mirror but rather because it was already in a handy carry all or purse.  After the overflight I hope she took it out of her purse.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2012, 10:20:03 PM »

I think abundant evidence that the method has been used for a long, long time can be found - but the army having used it (as did native Americans, supposedly) and the Coast Guard having to learn of it the hard way a half-century later suggests a lack of continuity in knowledge of it's use among our own institutions.

It would help to understand how well the method might have been codified into the minds and institutions that would have reached AE and FN.  We will probably never know with any certainty - but it does appear worthwhile to try to understand how likely AE and FN might have been to realize the concept.  It could help fill in 'why' the compact was brought there.

I've also thought that even ordinary rouge might have some small sunscreen benefit, too - but I don't know.

We do know that AE had a habit of keeping compacts handy.  I think we also know through TIGHAR's research that what was actually found is consistent with a type of compact that she had owned.  That seems to be the vital link, but it does not alone advance our understanding of 'why'.

Thanks Jeff. Do we have evidence that she had the habit of keeping compacts handy?  My wife just keeps hers in her purse and it goes where she goes.  Could it be as simple as this?  Purse or handbag goes ashore just because it's automatic to do?   I asked my wife what she would do with her purse if she landed on a desert island. She said because it contains her private life it would go ashore right away. I'm sure this will be disputed as non evidentiary because it's not already documented in TIGHAR somewhere. (Said tongue in cheek).

To John....  It can be argued that woman was not AE.  Not by me but others. I believe you need to adopt a policy of saying "What is likely?" when there is no evidence to point at.

Sorry, Irv, thought I answered this and just realized it never showed up -

I thought there was some commentary on this on AE keeping a compact handy on the TIGHAR site but somehow I'm not able to find it.  Maybe it came from elsewhere, but no luck so far other than about the item at Purdue, etc.

It does seem to be an object that is consistent with what we know about her though, and since we know she had one as evidenced by Purdue and that it would be an odd thing to have washed ashore at Gardner... well, seems like a worthy item of study.

LTM -

Thanks Jeff. I did read in one account that at one of their stops Fred went to get out of thevElectra and AE pulled him back in. She pulled out her compact and puffed her face once or twice then came out for the photographers. I'll find that account and post the link. This would suggest AE kept it very handy just as you posted.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Erik

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2012, 09:39:35 AM »

That's correct John. You did not say AE.  Are you suggesting another lady?

How about this lady?

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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2012, 10:06:21 AM »

That's correct John. You did not say AE.  Are you suggesting another lady?

How about this lady?



Hi Erik

Could be but how about this lady?  http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=%2Fearhart&CISOPTR=398&DMSCALE=19.82816&DMWIDTH=600&DMHEIGHT=600&DMMODE=viewer&DMFULL=0&DMOLDSCALE=3.16389&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&DMTHUMB=1&REC=13&DMROTATE=0&x=59&y=125

I have linked one picture of AE holding what is a square mirror about the size of the one found on Niku and this one which is also the right size but I can't prove (yet) is a compact.  You have posted a picture of a lady on Niku.  I won't be able to post a picture of AE on the island so your picture keeps this aspect of the mystery very much up in the air. I will keep looking. :-)
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Mirror (2-6-S-18 and 2-8-S-1)
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2012, 08:34:27 PM »

Where there are mirrors, there must be smoke...

Fascinating - a 'European' appearing lady on Gardner, for gosh' sake - no compact in-hand, but...

AND a woman known to have frequent contacts with compacts who we think was once there... alas no photo of her posing with the coconut crabs.

I think this exploration will run on for some time to come.

Wonder who the lady with the kid may be?  British officer or official's wife?  With their penhant for records we ought to be able to find out something.

LTM -

If we could find that out then we might have another source of information to follow up.
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