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Author Topic: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream  (Read 415464 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #225 on: September 03, 2012, 09:01:32 PM »

   If I recall correctly you stated that ae had a knife at the seven site, I believe you found the handles.

Please don't try to recall things. Look them up. I never stated that AE had a knife at the Seven Site. We found a knife at the Seven Site.  It's an Easy-Open bone-handled, double-bladed jack knife made by the Imperial Cutlery Company of Providence, RI from 1930 until 1945.  It does not have handles.   The knife appears to have been beaten apart with a blunt object, apparently to extract the blades.  We found almost all of the knife except the blades.

It was surmised that she attached the blade to a spear for fishing.

We didn't surmise anything.  The dates of manufacture mean that the knife could have belonged to Amelia, or Fred, or any of the Coasties, or anyone else who may have visited the site after 1930.  We do know that there was a bone-handled, double-bladed jack knife aboard the Electra at the time of the Luke Field wreck, but it was a different manufacturer than the knife we found at the Seven Site. We don't know why the blades were removed but one reason we can think of is that a castaway may have wanted the blades for making spears.  The fact that there is known to have been a castaway at the same site supports that hypothesis.  Maybe you can think of a better one - but please get your facts straight.  It's not fair to ask others to take the time to correct your errors.

If the turtle was cut up by a piece of the jar it seems to me that it was done by some one else as ae would IMHO have used the knife you have inferred she had.

I've made no such inference, but I'll point out that if you bust up your knife to make a spear you can't then use the knife to cut up the critters you kill with the spear.

    There is not one event that happened at the seven site that can't be easily explained without creating IMO a urban legend type story about ae living and hunting done at the seven site. Please name one event, just one, that you know that ae and only ae could have done at the seven site.

I don't know that AE was ever at the Seven Site.  I do know that objects have been found at the Seven Site- first by Gallagher and later by TIGHAR - that strongly suggest the presence of an American female castaway who arrived after 1933 and was dead by 1940.  I can name a specific American female who disappeared in that region during that time period.  Her name was Amelia Earhart.  We've been trying very hard to find documentation of another one but with no success.  If you really want to knock a hole in TIGHAR's hypothesis, find another American woman who went missing in the South Central Pacific between 1933 and 1940.
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Jeff Scott

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #226 on: September 04, 2012, 12:43:17 AM »

Personally I find it somewhat of a stretch of the imagination to believe that, although only two ads for this product were apparently printed in these 75 years of this newspaper's publishing, we are supposed to take these two ads as proof this product was sold in New Zealand during the 1930s. Someone is going to have to come up with more than this to convince me.

I spent some time searching that site, and I noticed that quite a few keywords produce few results.  I believe that not all articles have been indexed, especially advertisements.
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Alan Harris

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #227 on: September 04, 2012, 03:05:43 AM »

Personally I find it somewhat of a stretch of the imagination to believe that, although only two ads for this product were apparently printed in these 75 years of this newspaper's publishing, we are supposed to take these two ads as proof  this product was sold in New Zealand during the 1930s. Someone is going to have to come up with more than this to convince me.

Well, it certainly seems like proof that Milne & Choyce Ltd. on Queen Street, Auckland had at least 1 jar to sell in 1930 and 1 in 1931.  Otherwise their advertising manager would be quite far out of line.  Agreed we cannot know from this whether they actually sold any of their inventory.

I spent some time searching that site, and I noticed that quite a few keywords produce few results.  I believe that not all articles have been indexed, especially advertisements.

Yes, that was also one of my thoughts, as in searching domestic publications I encountered many frustrating moments where either the document/paper was just scanned in by page and not indexed, or the text articles were indexed but the adverts were not.  Can't say for sure, but probable IMO.

Earlier posts in this thread by Randy Carson and myself (Replies 214 and 216) are tangentially relevant, as they discuss what seems to be a paucity of Berry ads in the USA.  One speculation I raised there was: the product may have been primarily marketed directly to druggists through salesmen, mailings, or in trade publications, such that the druggists would then "push" the product to their customers.  However, I don't have a specific example or reference to confirm that.  Repeat: speculation.

In any case, IMO the importance of 1930's advertising and sales should not be exaggerated, as the jar research strongly indicates that in the '30s the Berry's jar would have been white (opal) glass, not clear glass like the artifact jar, for which we have found no evidence later than 1916.  If a New Zealand or Australian ad for Berry's from that earlier time period should surface it would have additional interest.
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Bill Mangus

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #228 on: September 04, 2012, 04:14:29 PM »

What happens if you heat a white jar hot enough to partially melt it.  Does it change color?
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #229 on: September 04, 2012, 04:45:26 PM »

What happens if you heat a white jar hot enough to partially melt it.  Does it change color?


Glass white or clear melts between 1400 to 1600 degrees f depending on the composition.  It is a moot point however as a typical campfire only burns at 900 degrees to 1100 degrees f.  So the freckle cream jar would not have melted in a fire and no it won't change color since when they make Milk Glass it is heated to above 1600 degrees f. to pour.
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Mark Pearce

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #230 on: September 05, 2012, 12:50:58 PM »


"...jar research strongly indicates that in the '30s the Berry's jar would have been white (opal) glass, not clear glass like the artifact jar, for which we have found no evidence later than 1916.  If a New Zealand or Australian ad for Berry's from that earlier time period should surface it would have additional interest."

It may be from a "later period," but it is interesting just the same to find a New Zealand cosmetic manufacturer ran an ad in August 1942 asking readers to gather up USED cosmetic jars for recycling.  The advertiser emphasizes their own brand and, “…similar products are packed in squat round WHITE OPAL jars” and adds, “All these jars are imported. “

I’d hazard to guess the primary world-wide exporter of all cosmetic jars in that era and before, was the Hazel Atlas Co.

Maybe the jar floated to the island as trash, ... direct from New Zealand.  :)
 
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19420808.2.105.5&srpos=22&e=-------10--21----0cosmetic+jar--

Evening Post, 8 August 1942, Page 8

Jars Wanted- War Emergency

Here's an opportunity for YOU to help New Zealand's War Effort, make money, and ensure your future supplies of MONTEREY COSMETICS
 
MONTEREY CREAMS (and many other similar products) are packed in squat round WHITE OPAL jars 1 ¾” high and 2" wide, as illustrated. All these jars are imported.

Every jar that you can salvage, therefore, will be a direct contribution towards saving vital shipping space. Here's What to Do! Collect all such jars, with or without lids, and take them-to your regular Cosmetic Dealer who will pay you, provided they are the correct size and shape-

 1/3 per dozen —Cash

 Your dealer will then forward them to the factory where they will be scientifically cleaned and sterilised. Every foot of shipping space saved is equivalent to a shot at the enemy. This is your chance to do some shooting. Start saving and collecting jars NOW.




« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 12:53:04 PM by Mark Pearce »
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Matt Revington

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #231 on: September 05, 2012, 01:10:51 PM »

This link is to article about AE from 1932 after one her flights
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mVVgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=n3ENAAAAIBAJ&pg=1609,608767&dq=earhart+cosmetics&hl=en

" One english reporter was particularly interested in learning whether she had carried a vanity box with her across the Atlantic.  Mrs Putnam assumed(sic) him " You don't have any time for cosmetics flying the Atlantic, I didn't even have a comb."

Not exactly sworn testimony and vanity may have led to bend the truth a bit but still relevant.  Of course she was 5 years older for the  last trip and maybe somewhat more concerned about  her appearance.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #232 on: September 05, 2012, 01:24:58 PM »

Of course she was 5 years older for the  last trip and maybe somewhat more concerned about  her appearance.

I don't have them at my fingertips but there are references to her having cosmetics with her on the world flight.
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Alan Harris

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #233 on: September 05, 2012, 03:01:43 PM »

It may be from a "later period," but it is interesting just the same to find a New Zealand cosmetic manufacturer ran an ad in August 1942 asking readers to gather up USED cosmetic jars for recycling.  The advertiser emphasizes their own brand and, “…similar products are packed in squat round WHITE OPAL jars” and adds, “All these jars are imported. “

I’d hazard to guess the primary world-wide exporter of all cosmetic jars in that era and before, was the Hazel Atlas Co.

Maybe the jar floated to the island as trash, ... direct from New Zealand.  :)

Another interesting post, as usual, Mark!  We do know, thanks to you, that Hazel-Atlas was exporting glassware to England as early as 1915, so it's not a huge stretch to imagine their jars also going to NZ either directly from the US, or as a further movement by a British distributor.  Another avenue for exploration.  Hazel-Atlas was one of the largest, at times the largest, glassware manufacturers in the US.

Those who have old Hazel-Atlas catalogs (I do not) can look to see if the jar illustrated in your link looks like a Hazel-Atlas offering.  However, the shape is rather plain and probably not identifiable as uniquely being a single brand.  I note that the plain round jar shape does match that we have found for Dr. Berry's Poisonous Preparation in 1936, for whatever that is worth.

As a suggestion for your (apparently tireless) searches, "cosmetics" are not necessarily the only product category that could have originally been in the artifact jar.  I am not fully clear whether it is a proven fact that the jar contained mercury, but even if it is, I have found a reference in the '30's to mercury-containing "acne, blackhead, and eczema creams", which could be called medicinal rather than cosmetic; and prior to the '30's there were other medicinal preparations using mercury, see here for examples.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #234 on: September 05, 2012, 05:36:48 PM »

All of this struggling to show that the jar could have come from New Zealand or that it could have contained something other than Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream or that it probably dated from earlier than pick-a-year misses the point.

• The jar was found at a site where we can be quite sure a castaway, probably female, died prior to 1940.
• The jar was broken, almost certainly intentionally. (The glass is quite thick. Just dropping the jar on the coral rubble would not be sufficient to shatter it.  There is damage to the lip of the jar that suggests it was broken by hammering - possibly to get the lid off. See photo.)
• One piece of the broken jar was apparently used to cut up a turtle some distance from where the jar was broken.
• All of the above strongly suggests that the jar is associated with the castaway.
• Other broken glass containers found in the same area also suggest castaway-association, are of American manufacture in the early 1930s, and are of small (3 ounce) size.  One has been conclusively matched to Campana Italian Balm, a popular hand lotion made in Batavia, IL marketed to American women in the 1930s.

 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 05:40:07 PM by Ric Gillespie »
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Friend Weller

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #235 on: September 05, 2012, 10:19:27 PM »

...and are of small (3 ounce) size. 

The TSA would be be proud!   ;D

Keep up the good work -

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Mark Pearce

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #236 on: September 06, 2012, 08:17:43 AM »


"...It has always been the aggregate of these things that gave us an idea of what went on at the 7 site."

"...who knows what 'markers' we may yet find?"

Considering what has already been uncovered there, more ‘markers’ left by the Coast Guard will likely turn up before any artifacts positively connected to AE/FN are found.

This artifact is an important clue for example-
 
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Help/Artifact1.html

“The artifact is almost certainly associated with Unit 92, the Coast Guard Loran station at the southeast tip of the island. We know that personnel from the Loran station engaged in target practice at the Seven Site on one or more occasions. We’ve found numerous M-1 carbine shell casings and broken Coast Guard mess hall plates at the site. A burned out vacuum tube would make a good target.”

Would you agree the Campana Italian Balm bottle and the Mennen lotion bottle found at the site would also make good targets? 

“…Campana Balm was carried by every U.S. soldier and serviceman to prevent or heal burns.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Campana_Company
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #237 on: September 06, 2012, 08:54:08 AM »

Would you agree the Campana Italian Balm bottle and the Mennen lotion bottle found at the site would also make good targets? 

Absolutely.  The fact that we found only the bottom of the Campana bottle and the scattering of the Mennen bottle pieces suggest they were shot rather than broken by some less violent means. Ditto with the fragments of a WWII era Coke bottle and an octagonal glass container that seems to match a type of large government-issue salt shaker.  Other apparent Coast Guard targets are the pieces from vacuum tubes that you mention and, of course, the shards of two ceramic dinner plates, one of which carries the USCG logo.  So we know the Coasties were shooting up stuff they brought to the site from the Loran station.  The Campana bottle may have been among that stuff or it could have already been on the site and shot as a target of opportunity.  Same with the Mennen bottle. 

We have good reason to think that a castaway died there and we know that, several years later, some Coasties did some target shooting there. Sorting out which artifacts are attributable to which activity is easy in some cases and more problematic in others.

“…Campana Balm was carried by every U.S. soldier and serviceman to prevent or heal burns.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Campana_Company

Good catch. Very interesting, and I'm surprised that our researcher missed it.  That's a pretty sweeping statement, even for Wikipedia. But if only some troops were issued Campana Balm it should still be possible to find examples of how it was issued.  Little 3 oz. glass bottles (the bottle found at the Seven Site was made in 1933)?  Or unbreakable squeeze tubes?   More research is needed.
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Mark Pearce

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #238 on: September 06, 2012, 09:21:47 AM »

Here's an interesting bit of info related to the Mennen bottle-  an ad from 1946- showing the same or similar logo found on the bottle fragment.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/carlylehold/7390485060/ or-



See page three here for a photo of the bottle fragment-

http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2010Vol_26/1110.pdf
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #239 on: September 06, 2012, 10:09:10 AM »

I have the following response from Joe Cerneglia, our primary researcher who has been working with the Campana bottle:

 "I assure you we did not miss Wikipedia's statement that "Campana Balm was carried by every U.S. serviceman during the war.". This statement was added to the Wiki article by someone following the breaking news on the identification of the bottle as consistent with Italian Balm.  Someone else at this time also stated in the Wiki article that Amelia Earhart carried Campana Italian Balm on her last flight.  Tom and I consulted on this and decided to remove this statement.  We gave our reasons in the editorial history of the article:

 14:30, 20 June 2012‎ 198.228.201.146 (talk)‎ . . (5,173 bytes) (-426)‎ . . (→‎Notable users: Deleted. All we can conclude is that SOMEONE had Campana Italian Balm with them at the Seven Site; we have no evidence that AE had it, there or anyplace else.  Tom King, Archaeologist, TIGHAR

We believe remarks to the effect every soldier had a bottle of Italian Balm was an exaggerated, and inaccurate counter-response to the idea expressed that Campana Italian Balm was brought by Earhart on the World Flight.  A check of the history of Campana Company will confirm why the statement that every soldier carried Campana Balm is probably grossly inaccurate.

First, Campana Corporation manufactured burn ointment for soldiers.  It was supplied in tubes and carried the names M-4 and M-5.  We have no basis to know how widely it was distributed, and in any case most such ointments contained a boric acid-based emollient, very different from the ingredients in Italian Balm.

Second, the effort to supply the troops actually decreased substantially the number of bottles of Italian Balm (the product had actually been re-named Campana Balm in response to anti-Italian war sentiment) that could be produced.  Sales had already begun a decline by the outbreak of World War II. 

For more on this topic, see the section titled Impact of World War II in

http://www.bataviahistory.org/historian-vol-26-51/the-batavia-historian-vol-39/volume-39---number-2.aspx

This information may also be found in the last chapter of Batavia: From the Collection of the Batavia Historical Society, available on Amazon."


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