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Author Topic: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?  (Read 28465 times)

Sheila Shigley

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Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« on: December 19, 2010, 10:53:19 PM »

The [what sound to me] urgent repetitions of "Marie" and (something like) "New York" have me wondering whether AE had made contact with an amateur (or other) radio operator in addition to the proposed brief exchange with W40K.

But yet another female radio enthusiast/operator picking up AE's signal in 1937, and this one with a transceiver?  :)

Have the possibilities of "Marine" been explored, either as a radio contact designation, or possibly a reference to the Norwich City as a marine visual target?

Thinking "Marie, New York" may also refer to a location, I did a preliminary Google Maps search but haven't found anything close yet.

My apologies if some/all of this has been addressed - I did some searches through the forum to try and avoid duplication but may have missed earlier discussions!




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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 07:21:53 AM »

Have the possibilities of "Marine" been explored, either as a radio contact designation, or possibly a reference to the Norwich City as a marine visual target?

That's seems to me to be a new theory, FWIW.  Some genealogists may be able to help you play with Soundex to help explore the possibilities.
LTM,

           Marty
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Gus Rubio

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 08:07:41 AM »

Fred Noonan's second wife, married in March 1937, was named Mary.  Now, Mary (MAry) and Marie (MarIE) are 2 different names and pronounced differently, but maybe Betty heard or spelled it wrong.  
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 08:10:22 AM by Gus Rubio »
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Jennifer D

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 08:31:00 AM »

I would say it was noonan relaying a message to his wife.
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Sheila Shigley

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 09:47:00 AM »

I'd be more inclined toward the wife theory if AE hadn't also seemed to call out, "Marie."

Beside the first "N.Y. N.Y. N.Y." Betty has marked, "In here they were both on radio."  This observation that both AE and FN were talking seems to cover the next fragments as well: "Marie Marie : N.Y. N.Y. : Oh if they could hear me : N.Y. N.Y. : Marie" and then switches back to only AE, who says "It's going."

A possible interpretation of this as AE and FN both jumping on the radio at once and calling out "N.Y. N.Y. N.Y" and "Marie Marie" could be consistent with excitement at having made contact with someone.  "It's going" could of course refer to the fading signal.

But certainly, heightened emotions could lead AE to also call out FN's wife's name in desperation, though it doesn't seem as likely.

On the other hand, the seeming turn-taking later (AE calling "George," followed by FN calling "Marie") could point back to the wife theory, though it could also be interpreted as AE's message to George being interrupted by new contact with "Marie," especially considering that they seem to then switch from personal messages back to "Marie, hey!"  "Watch that battery!"  "SOS"

But Betty's notes may not indicate time gaps, if I understand correctly - and so much meaning in human speech is conveyed by timing and pacing.
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 10:56:01 AM »

I've just been re reading Betty's note book http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Documents/Notebook/notebook.html
and yes you can read some of it like they have voice contact with someone (is that technicaly possible on a harmonic? I don't know)

Trouble is you an read anything you wan't out of a set of words if you so desire.

IF they had 2 way radio contact with another operator it could account for all of the apparent attempts at passing bearings onto them.  If the signal was bad then the similarity in some of the numbers could be accounted for by them having to repeat what they hear in the phones and then correct them.

Idal speculation I know and no thread of evidence for I appologise ;)
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Don Dollinger

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 01:03:52 PM »

Quote
IF they had 2 way radio contact with another operator it could account for all of the apparent attempts at passing bearings onto them.

Would think that highly improbable as they couldn't hear ITASCA voice on either channel.

LTM

Don
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 01:11:06 PM »

Agree, that why i was stressing idel speculation but at least you confirm the idea that 2 way contact was not possible due to the lose of the training antena.

What then is the meaning of the numbers, some of which could be positions?
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Sheila Shigley

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 04:33:59 PM »

I apologize in advance if the answer to this has been given--but are we sure Betty implied "City" in her "N.Y." entries?

I understand that her "or something that sounds like New York" implies that her "N.Y." was an abbreviation for two full words, but did she ever imply three full words?

It's probably moot, since "N(ew) Y(ork)" could be "Norwich" alone, regardless.
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ken jay brookner

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2010, 07:45:19 AM »

In 1935 and 1939 W4OK was assigned to F.G. Carroll from Lake Worth, Florida and West Palm Beach, Florida respectively.

I had to find a fellow ham with callbooks this old.  Unfortunately, amateur radio callsign data this old is not available online.  Don, K8MFO, had these books and provided the info.  I'm a member of the Boatanchors email list, which is a large group of hams who like to discuss and restore old amateur, military, and commercial radio equipment and that's where I went to find someone with the info. 

I don't recall the radios used to receive these post loss messages, but I've restored some commercial home consoles from that era.  While their dials are not very accurate as to frequency received, some were decent shortwave receivers.  Considering that 1937 was about the height of that solar cycle for radio propagation and that the transmitter was right adjacent to salt water (a great reflector), it's certainly possible that these signals were heard in the US and elsewhere.

You can see a graph of past solar cycles here.  Look for the "Monthly  Sunspot Numbers 1900-1999" graph.  The higher the sunspot number, the better for radio wave propagation.  http://www.wm7d.net/hamradio/solar/historical.shtml

As an aside, another member recalled a project in 1966 or 67 to duplicate the Earhart/Noonan mission.  Collins Radio may have been involved and this member remembers listening to the radio communication audio in his house which was piped in via telephone.  His father became an engineering director with the Apollo program about this time and was somehow connected with this project.  That was all he knew about it.

kenb, KY5G
 

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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2010, 09:03:51 AM »

In 1935 and 1939 W4OK was assigned to F.G. Carroll from Lake Worth, Florida and West Palm Beach, Florida respectively. ...

Great first post, Ken!  TIGHAR had gone through the same exercise to identify W4OK.

The sunspot information about 1937 is news to me.

I'm a lowly tech (KC2NEB), but a friend is encouraging me to move up in class.   :)
LTM,

           Marty
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Bob Brandenburg

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2010, 09:35:33 AM »

Ken,

We also are interested in knowing -- in connection with another post-loss signal we're working -- who held ham license W6CHI in 1936.  Could you ask K8MFO to check?

Thanks,

Bob Brandenburg
TIGHAR #2286
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ken jay brookner

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 10:09:20 AM »

Hi Marty!

Thanks re the post...

I expect that TIGHAR has already run propagation predictions between the island and Florida using this, or similar data.  I ran a quick, unscientific prediction and it looks like there was reasonable probability that propagation for EA's signals to have been heard in Georgia existed--the closest location to Florida that was a default in the program I used.  I looked at 3, 6, and 12 MHZ and I did not take into account transmitter power at various frequencies, including harmonics, or the transmitter and receiving antennas used.  So, YMMV.

Propagation programs are not absolute, but provide probabilities that a path may exist and how good that signal path might be.  Setting these predictions up can become quite involved and time consuming--and I did not do that in this instance.  So, basically, I was looking to see if any kind of path existed at any time during the day.  I use these tools often in my hobby, but I'm not expert in their use.

I think I'm beginning to stray a bit off topic...

Bob, sure, I'll check that call out for you.

BTW, Marty, I began as a tech.  Right, move up to General and get on HF.  It'll open up a whole new world for you.  Let me know if I can help.

73,
kenb
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2010, 10:15:15 AM »

... I began as a tech.  Right, move up to General and get on HF.  It'll open up a whole new world for you.  Let me know if I can help.

The only reason for me to move up is to get a cooler callsign.

I got the tech license for RC aircraft.  I've been on the air once in my life, on a borrowed set.

I don't think there's anything you can do for me but to keep making great posts.  Much appreciated!   :)
LTM,

           Marty
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ken jay brookner

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Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2010, 10:57:26 AM »

Bob...

Don does not have a 1937 callbook, but is looking at 1935 and 1939 books and bracketing the results.

Don writes:

W6CHI
 
In the 1935 Callbook - Charles Miguel - 525 Filbert Street - Oakland, Calif.
The call no longer appears in the 1939 Callbook, nor in 1948.
Going back further than you asked .. .in the 1930 Callbook, W6CHI belonged to Donald Kirk - 211 E. 24th St. - Los Angeles, Calif.


I don't know the context of the W6CHI call, but if this were a morse code contact--and i doubt that it is--Don goes on to say:

The difference between and "E" and an "I" is of course one DIT.    So it would be possible to copy W6CHE and W6CHI in error, one way or the other.
 
In all of the books I have here, from 1930 to 1948,  W6CHE belonged to Jack McCullough in California -- he was a very well known amateur -- he and his friend Bill Eitel - W6UF formed the company EIMAC, maker of quality transmitting tubes, which are still made today.       I believe both McCullough and Eitel passed away years ago.     Of course I was not around in the 1930s as a ham, but the only call similar to the ones you've listed that I am familiar with is W6CHE.  It's possible that he had a state of the art station at that time.


"E" and "I" would be difficult, but not impossible, to confuse on phone.

Hope this helps.

kenb
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