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Ric Gillespie

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10E c/n 1042
« on: November 02, 2016, 07:41:48 AM »

This may belong in Extraneous Exchanges but I've been catching grief from an emailer (who won't give his name) who claims that I have misrepresented the history of Lockheed 10E c/n 1042 - the only surviving Electra that was built as a 10E.  I've always understood that the airplane was purchased from the defunct Wings and Wheels Museum in Florida by Grace McGuire after it was damaged in a hangar fire.  My accuser says that's not right but doesn't seem to be able to provide documentation.
What I know about Grace McGuire and c/n 1042 is based mostly on personal recollection (and we all know how reliable that is).  It's a sad story and worth telling, but we have to be sure we have it right.  Can anyone find some good source material?
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2016, 08:11:53 AM »

This may belong in Extraneous Exchanges but I've been catching grief from an emailer (who won't give his name) who claims that I have misrepresented the history of Lockheed 10E c/n 1042 - the only surviving Electra that was built as a 10E.  I've always understood that the airplane was purchased from the defunct Wings and Wheels Museum in Florida by Grace McGuire after it was damaged in a hangar fire.  My accuser says that's not right but doesn't seem to be able to provide documentation.
What I know about Grace McGuire and c/n 1042 is based mostly on personal recollection (and we all know how reliable that is).  It's a sad story and worth telling, but we have to be sure we have it right.  Can anyone find some good source material?

Intverview with McGuire: "McGuire scoured the country for the same type of airplane Earhart flew on her last flight. It took two years before she and others found one: A 1935 L-10E Electra, tucked behind a Florida airplane museum and rotting."

Owned it for 34 years in 2016, so purchased it in 1982.

The Museum was called "Wings and Wheels":

"On February 18, 1970 the plane was sold to Zepherhills Parachute Center, Florida, and reregistered N355B it was used for sky-diving operations. Read this story about the pictured sky-diving episode.

"The plane was transfered to Vikings of Denmark Inc. on October 1, 1976 and was operated by Raeford Parachute Center in Raeford, North Carolina. Three years later, on September 15, 1979 the aircraft was sold to Dolf Overton and stored at Wings and Wheels Museum in Orlando, Florida.

"New Jersey flight instructor Grace McGuire purchased the plane August 3, 1982 and named the old Electra 'Muriel' after Amelia Earhart's sister Grace Muriel Earhart Morrissey. Grace met Muriel in the late 1980s at the Wings Club in New York City, the oldest aviation club in the world, and they became good friends and traveling companions. Grace plans to someday publish letters exchanged between them."


Nice pictures here, with the same basic story.
LTM,

           Marty
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2016, 09:37:01 AM »

Thanks Marty.  No mention of a hangar fire, so apparently I was wrong about that.  I'll post a correction on Facebook and we should correct the entry in the Ameliapedia Electra Survivors

At one point early in the Earhart Project we solicited funding from United Technologies (Pratt & Whitney, Hamilton Standard, Sikorski, etc.).  We were not successful, but in the course of those discussions I learned that United Technologies had planned to fund Grace McGuire's proposed re-enactment of Earhart's flight using cn 1042 until they learned that Grace did not have a multi-engine rating.  For many years Grace kept the airplane at Lakehurst Naval Air Station and then for a while it was in a hangar at little Woodbridge Airport in New Jersey. When we were first trying to figure out 2-2-V-1 I tried to get her to let us look at the airplane but she declined.  I found Grace difficult to work with.  She's a dedicated Crashed & Sank advocate. 
I also remember that at one point before she moved it to California, the airplane was parked and Monmouth County Airport in NJ and advertised as being for sale.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 09:42:46 AM by Ric Gillespie »
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2016, 10:50:31 AM »

Thanks Marty.  No mention of a hangar fire, so apparently I was wrong about that.  I'll post a correction on Facebook and we should correct the entry in the Ameliapedia Electra Survivors

Fixed.

"Restoring Muriel":

"McGuire heard that an aviation museum in Orlando, Florida thought it had an old plane similar to one Earhart had flown on historic flights. McGuire immediately traveled south, where she learned that curators weren’t even showing the plane inside the museum. Instead, they had stuck it out back, to weather the elements. The museum’s owner indicated he was willing to sell the plane, and, with the help of some backers, McGuire bought it. Only after closely reading the bill of sale did she realize what she had."


"1000 Aircraft Photos: GRACE McGUIRE COLLECTION, No. 11194. Lockheed 10-E Electra (N1602D c/n 1042) "Muriel":

"It took nearly two years to find the same model plane as Amelia Earhart's in order to realize my ambition to recreate her flight. Christie's in NY was auctioning off the contents of the Wings and Wheels Museum in Orlando, Florida, but my L-10E was not included in the sale due to its awful condition and was left to rot in the back lot ... it was going to be cut up and sold for scrap! Muriel was the saddest looking plane you have ever seen but I had a feeling we belonged together. It was instant love the moment we met. So I purchased Muriel and it was trucked to Rentschler Airport in Hartford, Connecticut, to be restored for the flight. My first mechanic was Ward Oakly who was one of Earhart's mechanics. Ward called in Eddie Gorsky, Amelia's mechanic on her 1932 Atlantic flight."

Christie's auction: December 6, 1981.

Lyme Net Europe: "After a two-year search, a tip from Christie's Auction House sent her to the parking lot of the Wings and Wheels Museum in Orlando, Florida."

New York Times, 4 December 1981: "Vintage automobiles and airplanes from the Wings and Wheels Museum in Orlando, Fla., which is housed in a hangar at Orlando International Airport, will be auctioned there Sunday by Christie's of New York. A Sopwith Camel, the World War I British single-seater fighter plane, is expected to command a six-figure price. Also included are a 1934 Packard five-passenger dual-cowl Phaeton, which may sell for as much as $250,000; a 1945 Heinkel He.111, the World War II Luftwaffe medium bomber, up to $150,000, and a 1930 Duesenberg five-passenger Berline, up to $150,000."

"The Vintage Airplane," February 1982:

"Everyone in the aviation world must have known about the sale of this tremendous collection of aircraft and automobiles with all the advance publicity it received. Handled by Christie's, an international auction firm, the big day was December 6, 1981 in Orlando, FL. The sale was attended by 400 registered bidders and about 600 observers."

This articles lists both a 10-A and a 10-E as "Not Sold."  The expected price for the 10-E was $14,000.  The article continues:

"The Wings and Wheels Museum was established four years ago when two not-for-profit organizations and a private collector pooled their resources to form one of the largest collections of classic aircraft and vintage automobiles in the world. In a hangar leased from the Orlando International Airport, the museum displayed the cars and planes supplemented by exhibitions of photographs, prints, and models as well as films tracing the history of transportation between two World Wars. Having lost their lease and not being able to find suitable space, the museum trustees decided to disband.

"Patrick Lindsey, a director of Christie's International came to Orlando from the firm's headquarters in London, England to conduct the auction. "


The bottom line: No evidence of a hangar fire; no evidence that the airplane had been damaged by fire.  It was just kind of flown out, I guess.
LTM,

           Marty
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« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 11:12:52 AM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
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Arthur Rypinski

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2016, 08:42:14 AM »

Note that Panair do Brasil was Pan American's Brazilian subsidiary in the 1930s:  it was founded as NYRBA do Brasil, and acquired by Pan Am along with the rest of NYRBA.  Pan American also owned a majority interest in Cia Mexicana de Aviacion during the 1930s, and the airline operated in concert with Pan Am.  Finally, Pacific Alaska Airlines was also a Pan American subsidiary.  So, while c/n 1042 was repeatedly re-registered in the 1930s, it stayed within the Pan American system.
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2016, 10:53:27 PM »

What follows is the registration history for Lockheed 10E, C/N 1042 as gleaned from the FAA registration records:

11/12/35 - Registered as NC-14972 -Lockheed Aircraft Corporation

11/19/35 - Sold for $10 to Pan American Aviation Supply Corporation, 135 East 42nd St, NY NY

12/3/35 - Sold to Compania Mexicana de Aviacion, S. A., Mexico

3/3/36 - US registration NC-14972 cancelled, operated under Mexican registration  XA-BJC

6/14/37 - Mexican Registration XA-BJC Cancelled at the request of Compania Mexicana De Aviacion, S. A.

6/14/37 - Sold for $1.00 to Pan American Airways, Inc. 135 East 42nd St, NY NY

6/21/37 - US registration NC-14972 reinstated

10/19/38 - Transfer From PAA, Inc. to Panair Do Brazil, S.A., Rio De Janeiro Brazil

10/31/38 - US registration NC-14972 Cancelled due to being “Sold into South America” 

1938 to 1955  - Operated in Brazil as PP-VAP.  Eventually owned by VARIG

12/15/55 - Cancelation of PP-VAP by VARIG due to being “re-exported to the United states”

1/23/56 - Sold to Don Cardiff, 60 East 42nd St. NYC, NY

1/23/56 - Registered by Cardiff as CAA Registration number N2068A

3/16/56 - N2068A Sold to Provincetown - Boston Airline, Inc.

6/12/57 - N2068A Re-registered as N35PB by Provincetown - Boston Airlines

2/18/70 - N35PB Re-registered as N355B by Provincetown - Boston Airlines

11/24/70 - N355B Sold for $10,000 to Zephyrhills Parachute Cener, Inc., Zephyrhills, Fla

10/1/77 1976 - N355B Sold to Vikings of Denmark, Inc., Denmark SC

1/13/177 Registered by Vikings of Denmark [Edit added 6/22/17]

9/15/79 - N355B Sold to Dolph Overton, Smithfield NC

1/14/81 - N355B Registered in the names of Dolph Overton, Wings and Wheels, Orlando Fla

8/3/82 - N355B Sold to Grace McGuire, Rumson NJ.  Registered as N355B

3/19/83 - N355B Re-registered as N1602D by Grace McGuire

6/27/84 - N1602D Sold by Grace McGuire to United Technologies Corporation

2/22/85 - N1602D Sold by United Technologies Corporation to Grace McGuire

3/3/85 - N1602D Re-registered by Grace McGuire - “A resident alien, with alien registration No xxx-xxx-xxx” [edited in case there is a privacy issue]

10/31/96 - N1602D Registration renewed by Grace McGuire

4/7/11 - N1602D Registration renewed by Grace McGuire

2/28/14 - N1602D Registration renewed by Grace McGuire

7/8/2016 - N1602D Sold to Atchison Amelia Earhart Foundation for $700,000 (Hard to read, may be $200K)

7/8/16 - N1602D Registered by Atchison Amelia Earhart Foundation


Some interesting twists in that history.  The sale to United Technologies and back to Grace McGuire is particularly interesting.  Ric pointed out that UT was a sponsor for a while, but who knew they took ownership of the aircraft for a while.

Cheers

Andrew
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 12:35:27 PM by Andrew M McKenna »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2016, 08:07:40 AM »

That's great information Andrew.  My understanding of United Technology's brief ownership of the airplane is based upon what I was told years ago when we were seeking sponsorship form Pratt & Whitney (part of United Tech.).  They were thoroughly soured on sponsoring anything to do with Amelia Earhart.
Grace successfully pitched her world flight plan to UT and they agreed to fund the trip, including buying the airplane.  When they discovered that Grace had misrepresented her flying experience and qualifications (she didn't even have a multi-engine rating) they backed out and sold the airplane back to McGuire.  Undeterred, Grace continued to work on rebuilding the airplane at her own expense.

I knew she was born in Scotland but the description of her as a "resident alien" suggests that in 1985 she was not an American citizen. I don't know her present status.

The aircraft was sold to the Atchison Amelia Earhart Foundation last summer but, reportedly, Grace retains some degree of control. Not sure how that works.

One remaining question is whether the machine is airworthy.  That was always Grace's goal and I know that the engines were run when the plane was in California but I don't think it was ever flown.  As far as I know, Atchison has no plans to fly it.

Curiously,  N1206D has not been rebuilt as a replica of Earhart's ship.  It sports a loop antenna and a window in the cabin door (ala NR16020) but all of the standard cabin windows are there.  There is a PAA logo on the fuselage but it's not like the plane's original PANAIR paint job.  Like the Navy's Lockheed 10A in Pensacola, it's a generic Electra with a nod to Amelia.  The only close-but-no-cigar replica of NR16020 is the Museum of Flight's (formerly Finch and Kammerer) converted 10A flown around the world by Linda Finch in 1997.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 08:09:18 AM by Ric Gillespie »
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2016, 08:44:01 AM »

Thanks Ric, interesting.

The last airworthiness record the FAA has was a major repair and alteration form 337 dated 4/14/1969 for an engine overhaul, so it would appear that nothing that has been done to the aircraft since has been reported to the FAA.

The last application for an airworthiness certificate in the FAA records was submitted by Provincetown- Boston on 7/3/56.

Makes you wonder a bit about the records the FAA has, but my guess is that it is not in airworthy condition, and hasn't been for a while.

amck
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2016, 09:17:33 AM »

my guess is that it is not in airworthy condition, and hasn't been for a while.

I think that's a good guess.   Here's an interesting bit of trivia.  The 10E that ditched off Cape Cod in 1967 was operated by Provincetown-Boston Airlines, the same outfit that operated c/n 1042 from 1957 to 1970.  My recollection is that PBA ran between P-town and Boston during the summer months and routes in Florida during the winter.  Apparently the big-engined Electras worked well for them.
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Gary Holbrook

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2017, 07:36:54 AM »

Tighar’s Mission Statement, as posted here:  https://tighar.org/about.htm

TIGHAR (pronounced “tiger”) is the acronym for The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery, a non-profit foundation dedicated to promoting responsible aviation archaeology and historic preservation. TIGHAR’s activities include:

1.)    Compiling and verifying reports of rare and historic aircraft surviving in remote areas.
2.)    Conducting investigations and recovery expeditions in co-operation with museums and collections worldwide
3.)    Serving as a voice for integrity, responsibility, and professionalism in the field of aviation historic preservation

TIGHAR maintains no collection of its own, nor does it engage in the restoration or buying and selling of artifacts. The foundation devotes its resources to the saving of endangered historic aircraft wherever they may be found, and to the education of the international public in the need to preserve the relics of the history of flight.

I’ll leave it up to you and your Board of Directors to ultimately decide either way, but in my personal opinion the contributors in this forum failed miserably in living up to the above mission. Unfortunately and as a result, misinformation about Lockheed 10-E c/n 1042 has been perpetrated by those that maintain this website, to the detriment of the general aviation public.

1.)    Forum entry:  In response to Greg Daspit’s post entry “a chance to look at a genuine 10E components in person is good news" Ric Gillespie (Executive Director/Administrator) replied “Yes and no, Grace McGuire has been rebuilding this beast since she bought it in the 1970’s after it had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire.”  Mr. Gillespie’s statement “it had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire” is grossly, and I mean grossly incorrect.  Mr. Gillespie made this statement as absolute fact, not even as a supposition, and that is truly unfortunate. None of the other “experts” that frequent this forum seem to step up to even challenge Mr. Gillespie’s misstatement.

2.)   Mr. Gillespie also stated that he has “been catching grief from an emailer (who won't give his name) who claims that I have misrepresented the history of Lockheed 10E c/n 1042 - the only surviving Electra that was built as a 10E.  I've always understood that the airplane was purchased from the defunct Wings and Wheels Museum in Florida by Grace McGuire after it was damaged in a hangar fire.  My accuser says that's not right but doesn't seem to be able to provide documentation.”   First of all, Mr. Gillespie never asked the name of the “emailer”. Also, in this statement, Mr. Gillespie stated that he “always understood” that the 10-E was damaged in a hangar fire.  What exactly does “always understood” mean, when Mr. Gillespie has already stated that the “hangar fire” story as absolute fact? And by the way, is it common practice to ask for documentation to disprove a (mis)statement, when there was no documentation provided for that (mis)statement in the first place?

3.)    Mr. Gillespie also posted that he found Grace McGuire “difficult to work with.”  Could it be that she rebuffed his efforts because he was of the incorrect mindset that the 10-E “had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire”?  If I had been on the other side of a conversation of that nature, I would have probably tried to run someone like that out of town.

4.)   I am not disputing Mr. Andrew M McKenna’s statement that his 10-E information was “gleaned from the FAA registration records”, but I do dispute the implication of some of it’s information.  His post includes the line “10/1/77 - N355B Sold to Vikings of Denmark, Inc., Denmark SC”.  I know for a fact that Bobby Frierson (owner of “Vikings of Denmark”, a skydiving operation based out of Barnwell SC) already had possession of the 10-E as of April 16, 1977, because my friends and I made several skydives out of the 10-E on both the 16th and 17th, over Rocky Point, NC, during Wilmington’s (NC) Azalea Festival weekend. 

5.)   Mr. McKenna states that “The last airworthiness record the FAA has was a major repair and alteration form 337 dated 4/14/1969 for an engine overhaul, so it would appear that nothing that has been done to the aircraft since has been reported to the FAA. The last application for an airworthiness certificate in the FAA records was submitted by Provincetown- Boston on 7/3/56.  Makes you wonder a bit about the records the FAA has, but my guess is that it is not in airworthy condition, and hasn't been for a while.”  Although I am not disputing what the FAA has in its current records, I find it hard to believe that it had not been deemed airworthy since 4/14/1969 (or was it 7/3/56?).  Mr. McKenna also states “makes you wonder a bit about the records the FAA has, but my guess is that it is not in airworthy condition, and hasn't been for a while.”  Mr. Gillespie agreed.  I can’t personally verify what date the 10-E was last used for skydiving, but my last skydive out of the 10-E was on February 17, 1979.

6.)   Although I did not witness this personally, I have been told on more than one occasion that Bobby Frierson personally flew the Lockheed 10-E from Barnwell down to the Orlando area (a very difficult task indeed, if it had been "severely damaged in a hangar fire").  I received this information from someone who I trust, and would have had first-hand knowledge of the information.  Also, even though I never saw the 10-E while it was down in the Orlando area and under the ownership of Dolph Overton, a good friend of mine (former skydiver and FAA air traffic controller) told me that he personally saw the 10-E when it was briefly on display on the interior of the museum. According to him, the aircraft was completely intact.

To summarize, I believe that the history of Lockheed 10-E c/n 1042 has been significantly misrepresented on this forum, and by at least one individual that is listed on the TIGHAR Board of Directors; that is a sad fact indeed.  Also, it is of my personal opinion that Ms. Grace McGuire basically has gotten a raw deal in some of the posts in this forum, and that is also truly unfortunate. Does anyone feel that she deserves at least some sort of apology?  Because of the blatant misinformation that appeared in this forum as it related to the Lockheed 10-E, could you really blame anyone if they questioned other “facts” as they appear in this forum and on this website?  Personally, I think not.

(edited to only remove double signature)
Gary Holbrook
 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:58:43 AM by Gary Holbrook »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2017, 07:47:21 AM »

Thank you for that information.
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Gary Holbrook

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2017, 07:49:46 AM »

My pleasure.
Gary Holbrook
 
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2017, 09:49:37 AM »

Mr. Gillespie also stated that he has “been catching grief from an emailer ... who claims that I have misrepresented the history of Lockheed 10E c/n 1042 - the only surviving Electra that was built as a 10E.  I've always understood that the airplane was purchased from the defunct Wings and Wheels Museum in Florida by Grace McGuire after it was damaged in a hangar fire.  My accuser says that's not right but doesn't seem to be able to provide documentation.”   

From 1000 Aircraft Photos:

Quote from: 1000 Aircraft Photos
The plane was transfered to Vikings of Denmark Inc. on October 1, 1976 and was
operated by Raeford Parachute Center in Raeford, North Carolina. Three years later,
on September 15, 1979 the aircraft was sold to Dolf Overton and stored at Wings
and Wheels Museum in Orlando, Florida.

New Jersey flight instructor Grace McGuire purchased the plane August 3, 1982
and named the old Electra "Muriel" after Amelia Earhart's sister Grace Muriel Earhart
Morrissey. Grace met Muriel in the late 1980s at the Wings Club in New York City, the
oldest aviation club in the world, and they became good friends and traveling companions.
Grace plans to someday publish letters exchanged between them.

Grace reports: "It took nearly two years to find the same model plane as Amelia
Earhart's in order to realize my ambition to recreate her flight. Christie's in NY
was auctioning off the contents of the Wings and Wheels Museum in Orlando,
Florida but my L-10E was not included in the sale due to its awful condition and
was left to rot in the back lot... it was going to be cut up and sold for scrap!
Muriel was the saddest looking plane you have ever seen but I had a feeling
we belonged together.. It was instant love the moment we met. So I purchased
Muriel and it was trucked to Rentschler Airport in Hartford, Connecticut to be
restored for the flight. My first mechanic was Ward Oakly who was one of
Earhart's mechanics. Ward called in Eddie Gorsky, Amelia's mechanic on
her 1932 Atlantic flight.


At least in the abstract, it seems conceivable that the "hangar fire," if any, could have happened in Orlando.  It seems to have been flying in 1979.  It seems then to have been in "awful condition and ... left to rot in the back lot," according to Grace McGuire. 

Quote
Although I did not witness this personally, I have been told on more than one occasion that Bobby Frierson personally flew the Lockheed 10-E from Barnwell down to the Orlando area (a very difficult task indeed, if it had been "severely damaged in a hangar fire").

You have evidence that the fire did not take place before the last flight that you know of in 1979.  Something happened between then and the time that the airframe was "left to rot."  What we need is information from someone  who knows what happened during those three years to change the airframe from flyable to sitting in the back lot waiting to be scrapped.
LTM,

           Marty
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« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 09:53:57 AM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
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Gary Holbrook

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2017, 10:58:17 AM »

Ric Gillespie and I have gone back and forth on the whole "hanger fire" issue in the past.  During the time of jump operations in Barnwell SC (the 10-E was used at both the Barnwell SC and Raeford NC dropzones), one of the engines did briefly catch fire, but the flames were quickly put out.  Repairs were made, and afterwards the 10-E was flown down to the Orlando area.

Personally, I think all of the confusion about a "hangar fire" is because the history of this 10-E was somehow mixed up with a Lockheed 12 (c/n 1225) that was "reportedy" (I have no personal confirmation) destroyed in a hangar fire in Miami:

http://www.flytoanothertime.com/AnotherTime/Lockheed1012.html

In other words, 2 + 2 = 5

The brief engine fire happened while the 10-E was based in Barnwell, and after my last jump out of the aircraft.  Any "hangar fire" that would have even partially damaged any hypothetical 10-E would have resulted in not only a significant restoration, but a MAJOR rebuild, agreed?  From what I can tell with Ms. McGuire's restoration, the fuselage is completely original, both wings are original, and the tail is original.  Does that sound like the condition of the aircraft had been in a major "hangar fire" before restoration started? You know as well as I do, if an aircraft that was in marginal shape to begin with (skydiving aircraft of this type are usually stripped and gutted of all non-essentials before use). and if it was left out for 3 years in the elements, it would be in pretty sad shape, to say the least; especially one with a construction date of 1935.

Also, if you look at the information posted on 1000 Aircraft Photos and compare it with Mr. McKenna's information from FAA, you will see that the dates showing transfer from Z-Hills to Vikings of Denmark are off by a year. 
Gary Holbrook
 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 11:18:31 AM by Gary Holbrook »
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2017, 02:55:53 PM »

Ric Gillespie and I have gone back and forth on the whole "hanger fire" issue in the past. 

If you've got a Florida eyewitness who can say, "I know there was no fire in the three years the 10-E was in Florida,
please name names.

If you are arguing from abstract possibilities and not from witness testimony, then it's just your imagination against Ric's.

Quote
The brief engine fire happened while the 10-E was based in Barnwell, and after my last jump out of the aircraft. 

OK.  So you are conceding that there was a fire in this airframe's history.

Quote
From what I can tell with Ms. McGuire's restoration, the fuselage is completely original, both wings are original, and the tail is original.  Does that sound like the condition of the aircraft had been in a major "hangar fire" before restoration started? You know as well as I do, if an aircraft that was in marginal shape to begin with (skydiving aircraft of this type are usually stripped and gutted of all non-essentials before use). and if it was left out for 3 years in the elements, it would be in pretty sad shape, to say the least; especially one with a construction date of 1935.

There is some tension in what you are saying here.

I don't think Ric denies that the major components of the aircraft derive from the original.

That is one meaning of "original."

But you admit that the interior of the aircraft was "gutted."  In that sense, everything that Grace put back inside to make it match Amelia's unique 10-E is NOT "original."

And therefore, examining the interior of "Muriel" would not help to answer questions about NR-16020.
LTM,

           Marty
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