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Author Topic: Can you explain what these little clips might be?  (Read 94656 times)

Greg Daspit

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #75 on: June 06, 2012, 01:03:11 PM »

Attached is an interpretation of the BOX1 image above.
You need to download and zoom in on the BOX1 image and you should be able to see the fan feature (stitches) what looks like the clip (2-6-S-03b) and the top of the screw with big washer below.

The clip may actually already be bent somewhat in this picture.
3971R
 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 03:58:35 PM by Gregory Lee Daspit »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2012, 11:03:23 AM »

There appears to be a dovetail joint at the bottom of the box in the box1 picture
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2012, 11:57:22 AM »

Gregory, I think you may be looking at the wrong kind of box here. If you check the large original picture, there are two people around the tail wheel of the Electra and they appear to be working on it possibly adding nitrogen to the strut or greasing the axle, but that is not clear from the picture. I would hazard a guess that these people were mechanics and the box you see was a tool box for one of them. During that period of time and even after WWII many working people constructed their own tool boxes out of wood. The one in the picture also appears to have a very substantial strap as would be needed to carry heavy tools.
 
AE and FN are on the opposite side of the aircraft and I doubt that Fred would have left his sextant that close to any work being performed on the aircraft because of the delicate nature of the instrument.

Just guesses on my part but something to be considered.

Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 11:59:38 AM by C.W. Herndon »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2012, 01:25:22 PM »

I agree C.W.
It may be the wrong kind of box. If you look back at post 71, I mentioned that upfront. I also posted the full picture from the Purdue collection.
However,  If you look back in the thread I also posted a picture of the box from one of Tighar's articles that is assumed to be Fred's sextant box on an earlier Pan Am flight and it has a strap that could be attached in the same place as this box.
The box under the plane is about the right size (from what can be seen), has a clip with similar features ( a screw on one end and a hole that could be sewn to the strap on the other). You will need to down load the picture then zoom in on it to see the features. It looks bent by the way the strap is forced out. It seems to have some anomalies where the sawcut teeth would be.
 I did multiple sketches on what the clip might be for, then found pictures that could show the attachment. This box has a similar attachment. Even if not the sextant box it shows a method of attachment conistent with the sketches I did.
   It does not make much sense, but who knows? Maybe the mechanics thought about using the box to prop up the wheel and Fred grabbed it away and bent the clip. He is sitting under the tail looking at his sextant box and laughing about it afterwards. Or they could have unloaded the plane to get at other stuff to help work on the wheel, and lighten the tail, and the sextant box just shows up in the picture.

edit: Fred could have seen how mechanics attached straps to their boxes and had them do the same to his sextant box.
edit: There could be 2 sextant boxes. One old one that was used as a tool box and one that held the preventer sextant
3971R
 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 10:26:01 AM by Gregory Lee Daspit »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #79 on: June 23, 2012, 11:36:05 PM »

Marty,
Do you know if the artifacts 2-8-S-35a&b ("gaskets" found in 2007) were found near these little clips that were found in 2001? Both were at the Seven site but do you know how close together?
Also, do you know the size of the gaskets or where there is a picture of them?
Have they been dated or identified?
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2012, 11:33:28 AM »

Do you know if the artifacts 2-8-S-35a&b ("gaskets" found in 2007) were found near these little clips that were found in 2001? Both were at the Seven site but do you know how close together?
Also, do you know the size of the gaskets or where there is a picture of them?
Have they been dated or identified?


My answer is essentially "no" to all of these questions.  I don't know about the location, size, or identification.  Someone else probably has better answers, but they are not necessarily involved in the Forum.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2012, 11:29:09 PM »

Marty, I think I found a picture of the gaskets that Irvine Donald took at D.C. The card with the clips said gaskets may be related.
What I was thinking is the gaskets may be used as an ease or cushion for threads passing thru a sharp metal hole.
Something similar shows up in the picture of a box below the plane. The pic needs to be download and zoomed-in to see it.
One way to see if they are related to the thread pattern is to see if the gasket is crushed where the thread fan pattern should be. Approx. 90 to 180 degrees of the gasket circle could be crushed.

An interesting thing to look at on the clips is gouging. Possibly the needle had less room to fit after the first threads were put in and caused the gouging at the rim behind the threads. See link that shows gouging
http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2004Vol_20/how.pdf

Also the shaft of the screw could indicate heavy wear near the head caused by the clip applying the load to the screw. Then below that, an un-worn but dyed ring where the strap would be, Then below that some minor wear rings where the washers would be. See link where the screw is out and cleaned. It could indicate that pattern.
Maybe something to look at for those with access to the artifacts
3971R
 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 09:52:45 AM by Gregory Lee Daspit »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2012, 12:36:20 PM »

Here is a more organized presentation. See PDF attached with annotations added.
The gasket artifacts relationship to the clip artifacts.
The gasket and clips were found in the same area.
 A gasket used for its intended use should be flattened evenly, yet the artifacts are not. A gasket protecting threads from being cut by a thin plate could deform the gasket un-evenly. See picture of un evenly deformed gasket and fan pattern with circular ring in the enlarged photo.

The clip relationship to the thread pattern
If the first threads filled up the hole, then forcing the remaining threads in behind them could gouge the rim of the hole behind the threads. An awl may have been needed to open the hole wider in the leather. An awl or heavy needle could cause the gouging seen on the artifact. See picture of clip for gouging than occurs behind where the first threads would be.  Note there are no rotation marks at the smaller hole, just at the one with the screw.

Regarding if the box in the picture is “The sextant box”
“Mr. Gatty thinks that the box is an English one of some age and judges that it was used latterly merely as a receptacle
That later use could have been a receptacle for tools before the flight. The box was described as having dovetail joints. The box in the picture has what appears to be dovetail joints. An aircraft mechanic could have made a tool box from an old sextant box or “The sextant box” was taken out to lighten the tail.

Possible “smoking gun”?
The artifact is not a machine manufactured item. The holes are not centered, the cuts un even. This artifact is a one of a kind item
The clip in the picture already looks bent out and has a similar size and shape to the artifact. The picture is only 96dpi. If what looks like teeth could be enhanced, they could serve as an identifying "bar code" if they match the hand cut teeth of the artifact. Also the gouge marks could identify the clip in the photo as the artifact found

I'm not sure of the scale of the gaskets.  I only have the picture Irv took of them from a presentation at DC. I attached a jpg crop of the gasket since making a pdf presentation from the jpg made some distortions.

Please click on the PDF below. Not just the jpg
3971R
 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 01:37:39 PM by Gregory Lee Daspit »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #83 on: August 07, 2012, 07:16:22 PM »

Attached is a 300ppi image ordered from Purdue (it lists as 300dpi in properties). See attached
The box is under the plane to the left
If you download it and then zoom in on the strap clip, it shows what could be "teeth" a little better (depending on the viewer used, and if quick view is turned off). However, the stitching and dovetail joints don't show up as well
Note the Coke bottles could be used to determine scale.

3971R
 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 07:34:21 PM by Gregory Lee Daspit »
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Tim Collins

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2012, 07:09:09 AM »

Any idea as to what function the teeth would have in the application you are suggesting?  Aren't "teeth" usually employed as sort of gripping mechanism on something that is adjustable? 
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2012, 07:59:32 AM »

Any idea as to what function the teeth would have in the application you are suggesting?  Aren't "teeth" usually employed as sort of gripping mechanism on something that is adjustable?

The teeth are meant to grip, however in the proposed application they are not adjustable. Adjustable mechanisms, like tie-downs with teeth, are what made me think of the strap as the use for the clip.  Although not adjustable, they would still distribute the load over the strap instead of the screw taking too much load and cutting into the strap.
Note the teeth are rounded off and not sharpened. This could mean they are intended to grip something soft yet not cut into it. The second hole of the clip is tied to the strap so it always keeps the teeth pointed in the opposing direction of the strap pull.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #86 on: August 11, 2012, 09:14:14 AM »

See side by side comparison of the clip in the 300 dpi image and a picture of the artifact at a more similar angle.
The screw is off center/ low on the artifact and the screw on the clip in the 300dpi image appears to be off center/ low. They appear to have the same error in the hole drilled.
In the picture of the artifact the screw is not set all the way down so the outline drawn shows where the hole is and does not show the screw.
See added comparison at bottom of attached PDF
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« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 09:16:39 AM by Gregory Lee Daspit »
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2012, 12:32:12 PM »

I am going to hazard a guess that the clips in question are not those of the handle for a Sextant Box.  The serrations though corroded by time would have been much sharper then and IMO used as some sort of an adjusting mechanism, for what I can't speculate.  Though the screw is a wood screw, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was used for the handle on a Sextant Box.  On this site, you can see a 1935 vintage Sextant Box.  This, in my humble opinion, would be more indicative of the type of handle and fasteners used on most of that period.  Notice the lid locking toggles and what appears to be a keyhole.  Were there any keys in Fred Noonan's inventory?  Maybe we will never know what those clips are from; that has raised so much speculation about what they are for.
Doc
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« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 02:27:09 PM by Bob Lanz »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #88 on: August 11, 2012, 02:49:25 PM »

I am going to hazard a guess that the clips in question are not those of the handle for a Sextant Box. 

Bob,
Although I am not married to the idea that the box in the 300dpi picture is "the sextant box", I believe the sextant box thought to be Fred's did have the wire pull handle it originally came with and a shoulder strap that was a modification made to a nautical sextant box for use in air travel. Since the trips are shorter on a plane than on a ship, the need to carry the box on and off is increased, so an added shoulder strap should make that easier.

Note that the sextant box that is thought to be Fred Noonan's has what appears to be both a shoulder strap and the wire pull handle. See picture below of the sextant box from TIGHAR files. I did a sketch showing where the strap appears to be back in post 73.

 If the box in the Pan Am picture below is Fred's  and was found on Gardner, it appears it had an added strap at one time. Gallagher did not describe that it had a strap so it could have been taken off at the Seven site and the clips could be all that remains.
edit Added numbers04 jpg with contrast adjusted to see strap better
3971R
 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 10:32:14 PM by Gregory Lee Daspit »
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #89 on: August 11, 2012, 04:49:59 PM »

I am going to hazard a guess that the clips in question are not those of the handle for a Sextant Box. 

Note that the sextant box that is thought to be Fred Noonan's has what appears to be both a shoulder strap and the wire pull handle. See picture below of the sextant box from TIGHAR files. I did a sketch showing where the strap appears to be back in post 73.

 If the box in the Pan Am picture below is Fred's  and was found on Gardner, it appears it had an added strap at one time. Gallagher did not describe that it had a strap so it could have been taken off at the Seven site and the clips could be all that remains.

Gregory,

Frankly in the picture with the yellow square, I do not see where there was a strap and it is too grainy to enhance.  I will agree in part that IF the box had a strap, the clips you show in your rendering would be reversed so that the strap would pull against the teeth of the clip.  That is likely why one of the clips though different in shape would have been bent, from pulling too hard on it.  That being said, those two "gidgies" as Marty called them are of a different shape.  Unless someone made them for FN as an add on later to the box, why wouldn't they be almost identical in size and shape?  Then I have to ask, what was the extra hole for?  It couldn't swivel if there were two screws. 
Doc
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