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Author Topic: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look  (Read 69368 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2014, 05:15:33 PM »

Do we have a photo of the aircraft configured at 30° Flaps for comparison?

No.  This is a screen capture of the airplane landing at Burbank in March 1937 after a test flight with Kelly Johnson. 
The full 45° of flap appears to be deployed.  As you can see, it's pretty obvious when the flaps are down. There were no flaps deployed at Lae.

Normal takeoff procedure for the 10E did not call for the use of flaps.  Film of the takeoff from Oakland for the first world flight attempt shows no flaps deployed (and for that takeoff Paul Mantz was in the right seat and possibly making the takeoff). That was a heavy takeoff but Oakland had a long runway. It's all about speed. If the 3,000 foot runway at Lae had been maybe 500 feet longer she probably could have reached sufficient speed (around 100 mph) to rotate and establish a positive ,if shallow, rate of climb. 

She's probably moving at about 95 mph when she sees the end of the runway approaching. (Collopy says she's 150 feet from the end.) Aborting the takeoff is not an option.  She has no choice. In desperation she horses back on the yoke and the airplane lurches off the ground, but it won't climb out of ground effect.  If she applies any further back pressure it shudders on the edge of a stall.  Once she passes the drop off at the end of the runway the plane settles until it's back in ground effect over the water.  It must have been awfully tempting to pull back on the yoke as it settled toward the water but if she had done that the flight would have ended then and there and we'd be trying to solve some other mystery.
According to Report 487, with 30° of flap the airplane should fly off at 90 mph after a run of 2,100 feet and climb at 500 fpm. The conditions at Lae were a bit different than at Burbank.  Lighter weight but turf instead of a paved runway. Probably a little higher density altitude. I'm guessing the airplane would have come unstuck after a run of about 2,600 feet.  Bob Brandenburg may be able to balance out all the variables and give a more informed estimate.

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Dale O. Beethe

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2014, 05:31:06 PM »

I could be totally wrong here, but I find myself getting more and more an impression of AE being more interested in being a famous aviator than in being a really good aviator.

Ya think?
I've just wondered for years why she's always portrayed as a great aviator when her career results would point the other way.  Seems to me a case of "famous for being famous".
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2014, 06:13:18 PM »

I could be totally wrong here, but I find myself getting more and more an impression of AE being more interested in being a famous aviator than in being a really good aviator.

Ya think?
I've just wondered for years why she's always portrayed as a great aviator when her career results would point the other way.  Seems to me a case of "famous for being famous".

An interesting discussion of AE's piloting ability, written by Alex Mandel, can be found here-

http://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A1012500/conversation/view/F119902/T1787262
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JNev

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2014, 07:47:07 PM »

I felt kind of stupid for not noticing this before, as a pilot myself... then it rang a bell - been a while, but it was touched on here before: a little challenge and some interesting back-up stuff posted a while back -

http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,524.msg6877.html#msg6877

http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,524.msg6881.html#msg6881

http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,524.msg6884.html#msg6884

http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,592.msg11673.html#msg11673



It now seems incredible that Earhart would have overlooked this, except for what Ric rightly pointed out about here, and yes - she seems to have been more occupied with fame than great flying, despite making peace with all the birds she first wrecked.
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 07:53:47 PM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2014, 07:49:25 PM »

An interesting discussion of AE's piloting ability, written by Alex Mandel, can be found here-

http://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A1012500/conversation/view/F119902/T1787262

I've done a listing of AE's records, accidents, and incidents in the Ameliapedia article on Earhart.

Some old joke comes to mind.  I think it was Mae West who said, "When I'm good, I'm very good, and when I'm bad, I'm better."  When AE was good, she was very good, but when she was bad, she was really bad.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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Tim Gard

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2014, 08:30:04 PM »

Great info Ric.

Many thanks.

/ Member #4122 /
/Hold the Heading/
 
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2014, 08:40:05 PM »

I think the key here is that "Normal takeoff procedure for the 10E did not call for the use of flaps." and she followed the normal operating procedure, just as she / Mantz did in Oakland, rather than the procedure suggested in Report 487.  Makes one wonder how familiar Earhart was with the Report 487, if at all.

The fact that she didn't yank it up into a departure stall is something of a testament to her ability to discern the ragged edge of what was flyable and what was not.  She was good enough to recognize that she needed to stay in ground effect for enough time to gain the required airspeed.  I'm not a proponent of AE as a great pilot, but she did manage to fly herself out of a potentially disastrous situation - yes perhaps sloppy and self created - but she dealt with it.  How many of us would have done as well, given the mistakes and situation?  Must have been some serious pucker factor involved.

Amazing that after all this time looking at that takeoff video, we're just now figuring this out.  Something new every day.

Andrew
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2014, 08:52:01 PM »

Old saying:
An exemplary pilot uses his exemplary judgement to avoid situations requiring his exemplary skill.
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2014, 09:00:44 PM »

Yes, for sure, she was no Chuck Yeager, but also not a complete neophyte either as she avoided what would have been a typical mistake / response to the situation.  What's interesting is that she thought nothing of applying "normal operating procedures" to what was obviously a non-normal situation, essentially ignoring the Report 487.  Why? 

amck
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JNev

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2014, 09:30:13 PM »

Because she seems to have suffered from a lack of attention to essential details?

Yes, she made it through - and I've credited her with good handling of that 'near thing' take-off.  But as has been pointed out, she really almost blew that one with a very stupid oversight - it didn't have to be that close.
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2014, 07:56:41 AM »

Because she seems to have suffered from a lack of attention to essential details?

It's another window into her character.  She certainly invites amateur psychoanalysis, but one thing seems certain. The real Amelia Earhart was quite different from the Amelia Earhart of legend.  That's not uncommon in folklore.  Think Davy Crockett.
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Ted G Campbell

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2014, 08:39:44 PM »

Ric,

Do we have any idea of the gross take off weight of AE's plane out of Hawaii and any pictures taken from the rear looking forward of the subsequent wreck to see what her flap setting might have been?

What I am looking for is more evidence that AE didn't read/nor adhere to the recommendations put forward by Lockheed.

Let's all remember that Kelly Johnson's recommendations weren't only how to get off the ground but to do it in such a way as to maximize range.  Question is, did AE demonstrate that she read the report?

In summary, I would have to "guess" that AE just said "top it off" with fuel on each of her stops (knowing she had plenty of runway ahead of her to get off the ground) but her main concern was did she have enough fuel to reach her next destination.  However, she muffed it going out of Lae!  Did she do a weight and balance calculation on each of her stops?

Ted Campbell


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Mark Samuels

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2014, 11:57:38 PM »


In summary, I would have to "guess" that AE just said "top it off" with fuel on each of her stops (knowing she had plenty of runway ahead of her to get off the ground) but her main concern was did she have enough fuel to reach her next destination.  However, she muffed it going out of Lae!  Did she do a weight and balance calculation on each of her stops?

Ted Campbell

Mr. Campbell,

Found this in the crash report.  Someone else will have to answer your other questions.  I am only guessing, but I would bet that she expected the ground crew to pre-flight the aircraft.

"a total load of 900 gallons according to a statement made by Miss Earhart. At 4:45 A.M."  From the Luke Field Crash Report.  I can't find a picture of how much runway she had ahead of her after the crash.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2014, 09:20:04 AM »

Do we have any idea of the gross take off weight of AE's plane out of Hawaii and any pictures taken from the rear looking forward of the subsequent wreck to see what her flap setting might have been?

What I am looking for is more evidence that AE didn't read/nor adhere to the recommendations put forward by Lockheed.

The photos of the crash scene show the flaps in neutral position. 
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Tim Collins

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2014, 03:24:17 PM »

Does this have any effect on the fuel consumption estimates? Or would it relatively negligible in the grand scheme of things?
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