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Author Topic: The Question of 2-2-V-1  (Read 1022986 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #255 on: February 21, 2014, 02:09:25 PM »

I hope the museum will cooperate - what a great chance to see some rare birds in a special way.

One nice thing about NMUSAF (try pronouncing that) is that most of the aircraft are just parked out on the hangar floor with no velvet ropes or other barriers to prevent the public from getting up close and personal.  Some aircraft, but not many the last time I was there, are presented in a diorama setting so you can't get up close to them.
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Tim Collins

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #256 on: February 21, 2014, 02:17:06 PM »

I may be able to get some special cooperation from the museum ...

Best case scenario, what do you suggest this could entail?
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #257 on: February 21, 2014, 02:24:13 PM »

I may be able to get some special cooperation from the museum ...

Best case scenario, what do you suggest this could entail?

I'd like for us to be able to meet with knowledgeable people from the restoration shop, show then the artifact, and get their thoughts.  That will require approval from the front office.  Apparently they keep those guys on a tight leash.
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Walter Runck

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #258 on: February 21, 2014, 02:37:54 PM »

Speaking of travel:

How many of you Rivet Heads - KoolAid drinkers and skeptics alike - would be interested in getting together to look at 2-2-V-1 in the flesh and comparing it to aircraft in the National Museum of the United States Air Force collection at Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton, Ohio?  They don't have a Lockheed 10 but they have examples of most of the alternative possible aircraft - and that's what we need to focus on.

I may be able to get some special cooperation from the museum and special rates from a local hotel if we have a decent sized group.  We'd want to pick a date later this spring when the weather is a bit more reliable.  It would be a chance to do hands-on verification of some very important issues and it's always great to get people together in person.

Let's have an initial indication of who would be interested in attending, then we'll see if we can agree on a date.

Sounds great, but I might need some help staying focused and on task in such an environment.  Maybe a leash would work.  I'll watch for details and see if I can make it.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #259 on: February 21, 2014, 02:44:33 PM »

Sounds great, but I might need some help staying focused and on task in such an environment.  Maybe a leash would work.

We'll probably need to rope everyone together like a kindergarten class.
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Mark Appel

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #260 on: February 21, 2014, 04:50:39 PM »



We'll probably need to rope everyone together like a kindergarten class.
[/quote]

A small price to pay! The chance to visit the greatest air museum in the world, in the context of a seminal historical investigation is a rare privilege... Oh, and one hell of a lot of fun! Now, I'm left to figure out which title to put on my name badge... probably a hybrid: "KoolAid Drinker Aspiring to be Rivet Head" fits best.
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Karen Hoy

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #261 on: February 21, 2014, 06:13:19 PM »

I've never been to Dayton either. The week of March 21-28 is wide open for me. Every museum group needs a librarian!

Willing to consider any date,
Karen Hoy
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richie conroy

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #262 on: February 21, 2014, 07:47:27 PM »

Hi All

I have attached this image due too the space in between rivets matching, I believe the artifact covered a T  shaped stringer joint

thanks richie
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Jeff Carter

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #263 on: February 22, 2014, 09:16:47 AM »

At least in theory, measuring the existing rivet head diameter will identify it as either a AN455 Brazier Head or a AN456 Modified Brazier Head.  For 3/32" shank rivets, the head diameter of a AN455 should fall between .222" and .246"  Head diameter of a AN456 should fall between .146" and .166"

Rivet specifications-  one current, one from 1942, below-
http://www.hansonrivet.com/aerospace-solid-rivets.htm

This is really interesting -- the factory head of a 1/8" modified brazier rivet is identical to the head of a 3/32" brazier rivet.  So when inspecting museum aircraft or photographs of aircraft, the rivet size cannot be determined from the rivet factory head.

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #264 on: February 22, 2014, 09:22:48 AM »

This is really interesting -- the factory head of a 1/8" modified brazier rivet is identical to the head of a 3/32" brazier rivet.  So when inspecting museum aircraft or photographs of aircraft, the rivet size cannot be determined from the rivet factory head.

Well damn!  How do we deal with this?
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Walter Runck

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #265 on: February 22, 2014, 10:02:59 AM »


This is really interesting -- the factory head of a 1/8" modified brazier rivet is identical to the head of a 3/32" brazier rivet.  So when inspecting museum aircraft or photographs of aircraft, the rivet size cannot be determined from the rivet factory head.

Unfortunately the head shape is very similar, so size is about the only clue an exterior view is going to provide.  It seems like you would only use a modified brazier AN456 instead of an AN455 brazier if you were willing to sacrifice pull-through resistance to gain a low-profile head.  Drag reduction in stressed skin seems to be an area where this combo would be desirable, so we should tread carefully here.

The contemporary design manuals should have some guidance regarding the choice of head style and the results of that would be reflected in the manufacturing drawings.  Do we have any Electra drawings showing the details of skin attachment?
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #266 on: February 22, 2014, 11:53:15 AM »

Do we have any Electra drawings showing the details of skin attachment?

I haven't found anything in the engineering drawings that specifies rivet style, size or pitch.  Seems like it has to be there somewhere.  The parts manual lists all kinds of fasteners with AN designations but no rivets.  Odd.
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #267 on: February 22, 2014, 01:40:32 PM »

The [huge] Consolidated PB2Y Coronado flying boat may have to be included as another possible source for 2-2-V-1.  On July 31, 1944 a PB2Y- operated by Pan Am for the Naval Air Transport Service- crashed in the Funafuti Island lagoon, killing nearly all the passengers and crew.  The sad story is briefly told in the 2005 book "The Pan Am Journey" by Thomas Kewin.  [Search on Google books- look for page 31]

"One of the Coronado's crashed on a night take off from Funafuti lagoon when a unlit Liberty ship drifted into the seaplane area killing everyone on board except the Purser, Sam Toarmina, the Engineer, Terry Toles, and the Radio Operator, Larry Good.  Sam was thrown clear, and survived with minor injuries.  Terry went through the side of the airplane and was found floating in the water, still strapped to his seat...  Rear Admiral Charles Cecil and his entire staff were killed."

Only one PB2Y exists today, in the National Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, FL.  Photos show many areas that might match up with the rivet pattern on 2-2-V-1.   

http://www.abpic.co.uk/popup.php?q=1361324

http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1361324/

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/howard_mason4/pb2y_coronado/index.php?Page=1

[Here's an interesting bit of info about this particular plane, found on the War Bird Information Exchange.]

"The Coronado survives thanks to Howard Hughes. He bought it to learn how to handle steering a large flying boat to help him learn to fly the Spruce Goose."
http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33732
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Bill de Creeft

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #268 on: February 22, 2014, 01:58:05 PM »

yeah but...wouldn't the existing hole drilled for the rivet give an indication of the rivet size?
Don't want to waste time here or divert effort...but the hole, if recent, would tell me what size drill to use.
Since 2-2-V-1 has been subject to 'wear & Tear' you might not be able to determine that but didn't I see something on here about an original part off the Electra that was retrieved from the runway in Hawaii after the first ground-loop ?
Or can the 'experienced eye' come up with an answer?

Can all this be put together and sort of balanced or figured out ?

Bill
(on the scent with the rest of the Hounds !!)
Bill de Creeft

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Greg Daspit

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #269 on: February 22, 2014, 02:17:01 PM »

yeah but...wouldn't the existing hole drilled for the rivet give an indication of the rivet size?
Don't want to waste time here or divert effort...but the hole, if recent, would tell me what size drill to use.
Since 2-2-V-1 has been subject to 'wear & Tear' you might not be able to determine that but didn't I see something on here about an original part off the Electra that was retrieved from the runway in Hawaii after the first ground-loop ?
Or can the 'experienced eye' come up with an answer?

Can all this be put together and sort of balanced or figured out ?

Bill
(on the scent with the rest of the Hounds !!)
Bill, I believe the rivet size in 2-2-V-1 is determined to a good degree but the problem is how to determine the size of other possible donors by looking at just the rivet head in a museum plane where the hole may not be visible. The rivet found it 2-2-V-1 had part of the shank still there, plus all the holes are visible.
I'm very close to the Cavanaugh Flight Museum. Don't see anything relative in the colection, maybe the B-24A but I can go look if needed, it's in, and they let me. The B-29 just left yesterday. I work near the end of the runway. So cool everytime the B-24 or B-29 flies over.
3971R
 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 02:33:11 PM by Greg Daspit »
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