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Author Topic: The Question of 2-2-V-1  (Read 732815 times)

richie conroy

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2014, 05:32:48 PM »

Sorry should have been more specific

My bad

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Jeff Carter

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2014, 11:40:22 PM »

Is anything more known about the PV-1 that crashed on Canton Island.
http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro

In this type of accident, would the PV-1 have been repaired on Canton Island and flown out, or written off?


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Chris Johnson

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2014, 02:27:47 AM »

What about post war planes prior to the end of the settlement from Canton?

Is there evidence of scrap being imported to the island for use in the settlement (I'm thinking WW2 aluminium from the Pacific theatre)
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Bill Mangus

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2014, 07:16:38 AM »

Believe AE is standing at the nose of the aircraft.

Could the man and woman(?) under the fuselage be FN and his wife?
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John Ousterhout

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2014, 08:47:15 AM »

Is there a reasonable limit to the distance over which a piece of aluminum might be imported to Gardner/Niku Island?  Canton Island has already been suggested, but what about more distant places?  There were a lot of documented wrecks all over the Pacific, but obviously not all were within "reasonable" distance from Gardner to consider for importation.
I can think of 3 different importation scenarios - 1) Gardner Islanders visiting family on other islands or mainland and bringing pieces back home, 2) Supply ships or other visitors bringing a variety of stuff for sale or trade, and 3) Military personnel bringing stuff that gets left with the islanders, either as gifts or abandoned in place.
(There's a 4th scenario - aircraft pieces arrived on the island by air, in the form of a complete flying aircraft, while the island was unpopulated before the war.)  Each of these scenarios might imply a different importation radius. Military personnel for one example might bring spare parts from the US (or Britain, Australia, or even Japan, if any of them visited the island before, during or after the war).  The USCG Loran station on Gardner was resupplied occasionally by aircraft, which might have been repaired on-site for example, leaving the left over scraps. The type of material and rivets would (presumably) be unique to US military aircraft and easily distinguished from 2-2-V-1, wouldn't it?
What is known about islanders likely family visits?  Emily Sikuli was living in Fiji when TIGHAR interviewed her, and went to school in Tarawa, but never returned to Gardner.  What route did she take to get to Tarawa and Fiji, and were those trade routes that might have also been a way for metal scrap to find its way back to Gardner?
Would US, British or Japanese pre-war flying boats have used similar metal/rivets?  They were operating in the South- and Western-Pacific as early as 1935 or 36.  Many of them got shot up early in the war, especially in Australia, and might have been salvaged.  Is Australia too far away to consider as a source?
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2014, 10:03:07 AM »

Is there a reasonable limit to the distance over which a piece of aluminum might be imported to Gardner/Niku Island?  Canton Island has already been suggested, but what about more distant places?  There were a lot of documented wrecks all over the Pacific, but obviously not all were within "reasonable" distance from Gardner to consider for importation.
I can think of 3 different importation scenarios - 1) Gardner Islanders visiting family on other islands or mainland and bringing pieces back home, 2) Supply ships or other visitors bringing a variety of stuff for sale or trade, and 3) Military personnel bringing stuff that gets left with the islanders, either as gifts or abandoned in place.
(There's a 4th scenario - aircraft pieces arrived on the island by air, in the form of a complete flying aircraft, while the island was unpopulated before the war.)  Each of these scenarios might imply a different importation radius. Military personnel for one example might bring spare parts from the US (or Britain, Australia, or even Japan, if any of them visited the island before, during or after the war).  The USCG Loran station on Gardner was resupplied occasionally by aircraft, which might have been repaired on-site for example, leaving the left over scraps. The type of material and rivets would (presumably) be unique to US military aircraft and easily distinguished from 2-2-V-1, wouldn't it?
What is known about islanders likely family visits?  Emily Sikuli was living in Fiji when TIGHAR interviewed her, and went to school in Tarawa, but never returned to Gardner.  What route did she take to get to Tarawa and Fiji, and were those trade routes that might have also been a way for metal scrap to find its way back to Gardner?
Would US, British or Japanese pre-war flying boats have used similar metal/rivets?  They were operating in the South- and Western-Pacific as early as 1935 or 36.  Many of them got shot up early in the war, especially in Australia, and might have been salvaged.  Is Australia too far away to consider as a source?

By what I understand of the material involved in 2-2-V-1 (vintage - distinctly pre-WWII metal as-marked and by presence of brazier rivet) this part did not come from just any airplane, but something of the L10's time and make-up - and something distinctly of American technology.  That limits likely sources to domestic 'other than' war types reliably well, IMO.  Yes, there were 'other types' operating where you note - New Zealand, Australia, New Ginea, etc. - all a long way from Niku. 

So what are odds of scrap as we see making its way from such places to Gardner / Niku?  Did islanders who turned up there have relatives in places where those operations were going on, and did they have access to airfield (or crash) sites where scrap could be harvested?  If they did, did they come and go in such manner so as to obtain odds and ends to take back for trade and to work into useful things?  Seems far-fetched to me as I undersand the people who inhabited Niku: they weren't exactly highly-mobile enough to reach such places or their circumstances wouldn't have put them on Niku.

Did someone export such stuff in hopes of promoting trade?  Somehow the notion of westerners thinking to do that - glean odds and ends out of junkpiles to stow away for eventual trade doesn't seem likely ("oh what a nice torn piece of dural - think what a nice comb some islander could make for that if I take it there in hopes of gaining favor...").

We can't know for sure, of course - but this stuff looks like it was opportunistically gotten from the field - off of damanged goods.  Why the diversity, of which some obviously came from a non-L10 type (like the PBY bookcase)?  Not easy to answer - stuff other than 2-2-V-1 generally doesn't appear to have come from Niku because we don't know of any potential donor craft that would have borne that stuff by definition.  The island was visited prior to and during WWII by some known types, with no accidents known: Colorado's biplanes - no landing; a Walrus overflight - British, different construction, no accident; seaplane visits to Loran station - no accidents known.  No real opportunity to glean such stuff from those birds.

We know there were military losses on other islands in the area - DC-3, PBY, etc. - all potential donors for some things we see, but not good sources for what we observe in 2-2-V-1 (vintage of metal and fastener don't add up to those types).  So back to 'did someone obtain this off of a civilian pre-WWII type elsewhere - south to west Pacific - and import'?  Can someone show me why it is believeable that islanders had that kind of reach for such stuff?  We're talking 2000 miles distant, and then either access to a crash or an airfield scrap bin - fairly narrow case at the end of a long journey.

I submit that this stuff was of more local and easily-opportunistic origin - that the military-like stuff could easily have come from neighboring islands, wherever there was a crash that produced donated stuff.  So where, nearby then, was the pre-WWII lightly-built ('cabin class twin' is a good description) that bore external pre-war metal stampings on alclad that was fastened with light no. 3 brazier rivets?  If a donor for that was found on another island, wouldn't we likely know of it, like we do the DC-3 and PBY, etc.?  I submit 'probably so' - but we don't.

So where was the donor?  We have anecdotal accounts of a wreck at Niku - not anything firm but a potential source; more than that, we have a distinct piece of aviation repair history that by markings and a remaining fastener speaks volumes as to the presence of 'something very much like a Lockheed L10' having been about.  We're back to a very narrow, pointed case IMO - not too many donor craft in the area, and where is the mostly likely spot for an L10 to have passed with far too little notice, as other history and circumstances suggest?

I'm not sure the public, or even many aviation specialists for that matter, really appreciate how unique 2-2-V-1 is as to how the stars cross on its markings and fasteners, right down to a grip length indicated on the surviving brazier rivet that it was tacked onto .060" of underlying structure, consistent with what we see in the museum shots of the L10 belly.  We have a very unique piece of aviation metal on our hands - found on Niku, and with no really good explanation for it finding its way there short of having flown in on an intact ship that never left that way.  Further, the way it broke away - whether in one explosive action or by being 'worried' at by the sea and finished by man's hand, etc. we do see evidence of it suffering fatiguing trauma that is consistent with mother nature's hand in the surf: something fretted with this metal over time before it got to where it is, and it was not lacking in some violence to have come from the parent structure in the form that we see today.
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 03:28:12 PM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Walter Runck

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2014, 12:46:48 PM »

The plane and its crew back in California, the obvious task was not to lament the past but prepare for the future. Like broken bones which Nature knits slowly in her own special process, the injured parts of an airplane must be painstakingly restored. There is no short cut to full usefulness in either case if perfect healing is desired. In addition to "healing," a strengthening of certain members to withstand the excessive strain to which overloading subjects them as in order for my Electra. This meant some actual redesigning, another process which could not be hurried. As to the precious engines, they were already in the Pacific Airmotive shops at Burbank being thoroughly checked. After the plane and engines were together, some time would have to be allowed for testing.
 
"Those who had an opportunity to observe miss Earhart at Miami I final preparations for her round-the-world flight could to help being impressed by the calm and unhurried manner in which he made sure that everything about her hip was as ready as expert technicians could make it before she would consider starting the trip. There was no hurrying or harassing of mechanic to finish their wok o that she might take off at a given time, no slightest indication of impatience when a difficult job took longer to finish than might have been expected. "it was interesting to watch the effect of such an attitude on the Pan American Airways mechanics and others who were assigned to give Miss Earhart whatever assistance they could. Being men and being engaged in a highly essential phase of the serious business of air transportation, they all naturally had preconceived notions about a woman pilot bent on a 'stunt' flight - not very favorable notions, either. it was, undoubtedly, something of a shock to discover that the 'gal' with whom they had to deal not only was an exceptionally pleasant and reasonable human being who 'knew her stuff,' but that she knew exactly what she wanted done, and had sense enough to let them alone while they did it. There was an almost audible clatter of chips falling off skeptical masculine shoulders.

This is the kind of stuff that press agents write, not serious people.  Almost devoid of content, but chock full of how they want to be perceived.  Read it one line at a time and at the end of each sentence, ask yourself what conclusions can be drawn from the preceding words?  The writer hopes that you will be unable to distinguish impressions from conclusions and walk away with the former thinking it to be the later.  Remarkable how little time changes things.

The one line that accidentally gets near something of substance concerns a need to redesign components to withstand overloading.  Other than putting skis on the belly so that there is something to slide on after you overload and collapse the gear by trying to take off sideways, what is she talking about?  Is there any indication that she asked Lockheed to change anything, or just put it back together so I can get out of here?
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2014, 03:59:19 PM »

Could the man and woman(?) under the fuselage be FN and his wife?

I think it's just two men on repair crew watching the photographer.

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richie conroy

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2014, 04:11:44 PM »

Ric

it is defo a woman an man

 ;D

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2014, 04:13:10 PM »

Is anything more known about the PV-1 that crashed on Canton Island.
http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro

In this type of accident, would the PV-1 have been repaired on Canton Island and flown out, or written off?

Dunno.  We may be able to dig up the accident report.  The notation doesn't makes any sense - "Gear up landing after aborted takeoff at Canton."  If the takeoff was aborted there was no landing. It may be that the pilot aborted the takeoff and ran off the end of the runway collapsing the gear.  Could be repairable.  Could be a write off.

In any case, the question is whether there is anywhere on a PV-1 where there are #3 rivets in a .032 skin. The PV-1 is a Model 18, same as a USAAF C-60 or a civilian Lodestar.  The Model 18 was a much bigger airplane than a Model 10 and was almost entirely flush riveted except for one small section in the tail.  I doubt - but don't know for sure  - that the rivets were itty-bitty #3s.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2014, 04:24:38 PM »

What about post war planes prior to the end of the settlement from Canton?

Big four-engine airliners and only one loss - 1962, an FAA Constellation checking navaids crashed during a touch and go. No way it could be the source of 2-2-V-1.

Is there evidence of scrap being imported to the island for use in the settlement (I'm thinking WW2 aluminium from the Pacific theatre)

Yes.  Definitely.  All of the identifiable parts we've found have been from a B-24 - possibly the Liberator that crashed after takeoff at Canton 19 July 1944.  5 fatals.
Scrap from that loss and others was probably brought back to Nikumaroro after the war by people from Niku who worked for the airlines on Canton.
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richie conroy

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2014, 04:41:04 PM »

Ric

according to wiki the only people to add to population of Niku in 1944 was the Loran station guys ?

And giving how precious aluminium was them days would the sea escorts/passenger ships actually let precious metal as such be taken of ship to be used for unspecified things ?
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Jerry Germann

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2014, 04:50:34 PM »

Testing the Hypothesis once more ….Would you have a photo of the Electra… pre/post luke field repairs that gives evidence of a remaining al-clad print? I know it's been stated that some impression could remain after detailing, however any evidence to prove or disprove this may be helpful. The following statements by Earhart seemly describe at least a fair amount of attention to it’s appearance. The photo gives me an indication as to it’s just gifted sheen, …though black and white photos don’t tell the whole story , it appears the Electra outshines her new Cord automobile.

The following are all per Earhart
With the plane the only specific job to be done, so far as appeared, was curing one small leak where a gauge let flow a few drops of gasoline, though from a harmless source. But while everything was working well, a complete inspection was in order, and an oil change, greasing, check of landing gear and the like. further, the plane itself was given a thorough-going scrubbing. Moisture of the preceding week had tarnished its metal surfaces, which every so often should be cleaned and burnished to a degree
Karachi
In our hurried scheme of things, with the problems of our own special transport uppermost, most of or time "ashore" was spent ih and around hangars. More important far than sightseeing was seeing to it that our faithful sky steed was well groomed and fed, its minutes mechanical wants cared for.

We did not intend to stay at Akyab overnight. Instead we hoped to reach Rangoon at least, and started off from Akyab after checking the weather and fueling Once in the air the elements grew progressively hostile. the wind, dead ahead, began to whip furiously. Relentless rain pelted us. The monsoon, I find, lets down more liquid per second that I thought could come out of the skies. Everything was obliterated in the deluge, so savage that is best off patches of paint along the leading edge of my plane's wings. Only a flying submarine could have prospered. It was wetter even than it had been in that deluge of the mid-South Atlantic. The heavens unloosed an almost unbroken wall of water which would have drowned us had our cockpit not been secure. After trying to get through for a couple of hours we give up, forced to retreat to Akyab.
Dakar
The Dakar airport is excellent, picturesquely situated on a jutting point of land with the pink city nearby. I am finishing this account of the flight to date, writing in the hangar while he good mechanics of air France work. Every inch of the plane has been  scrubbed with soap and water. The Electra's periodic face-washings were performed by natives. i must say the aspect of the African grease monkies was sometimes considerably simian. it was not only oily when we arrived but thee was a curious pattern from dust and rain made b the airflow over the wings. 

 
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/earhart&CISOPTR=3607&CISOBOX=1&REC=15
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Jerry Germann

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2014, 05:08:05 PM »

The plane and its crew back in California, the obvious task was not to lament the past but prepare for the future. Like broken bones which Nature knits slowly in her own special process, the injured parts of an airplane must be painstakingly restored. There is no short cut to full usefulness in either case if perfect healing is desired. In addition to "healing," a strengthening of certain members to withstand the excessive strain to which overloading subjects them as in order for my Electra. This meant some actual redesigning, another process which could not be hurried. As to the precious engines, they were already in the Pacific Airmotive shops at Burbank being thoroughly checked. After the plane and engines were together, some time would have to be allowed for testing.
 
"Those who had an opportunity to observe miss Earhart at Miami I final preparations for her round-the-world flight could to help being impressed by the calm and unhurried manner in which he made sure that everything about her hip was as ready as expert technicians could make it before she would consider starting the trip. There was no hurrying or harassing of mechanic to finish their wok o that she might take off at a given time, no slightest indication of impatience when a difficult job took longer to finish than might have been expected. "it was interesting to watch the effect of such an attitude on the Pan American Airways mechanics and others who were assigned to give Miss Earhart whatever assistance they could. Being men and being engaged in a highly essential phase of the serious business of air transportation, they all naturally had preconceived notions about a woman pilot bent on a 'stunt' flight - not very favorable notions, either. it was, undoubtedly, something of a shock to discover that the 'gal' with whom they had to deal not only was an exceptionally pleasant and reasonable human being who 'knew her stuff,' but that she knew exactly what she wanted done, and had sense enough to let them alone while they did it. There was an almost audible clatter of chips falling off skeptical masculine shoulders.

This is the kind of stuff that press agents write, not serious people.  Almost devoid of content, but chock full of how they want to be perceived.  Read it one line at a time and at the end of each sentence, ask yourself what conclusions can be drawn from the preceding words?  The writer hopes that you will be unable to distinguish impressions from conclusions and walk away with the former thinking it to be the later.  Remarkable how little time changes things.

The one line that accidentally gets near something of substance concerns a need to redesign components to withstand overloading.  Other than putting skis on the belly so that there is something to slide on after you overload and collapse the gear by trying to take off sideways, what is she talking about?  Is there any indication that she asked Lockheed to change anything, or just put it back together so I can get out of here?

Earhart was an author as well as aviator, they do have ways of saying things that the general populous wouldn't,..perhaps in the hopes of holding an audience's attention,..and to bring a sense of excitement to their story, with the ultimate goal of enabling the reader to imagine he/she is actually there, experiencing it. A bit of flamboyant wording,... perhaps,.... untruths,.... I believe not.   
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 06:23:09 PM by Jerry Germann »
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2014, 07:51:04 PM »

Have been searching for pre-WW2 civilian aircraft which flew around the vicinity of the Phoenix Islands, apart from the obvious Pan-Am flying boat activities at Canton Island 1937-1942. Came across this aircraft loss over Pago Pago, about 600K from Gardner?

"Samoan Clipper was one of ten Pan American Airways Sikorsky S-42 flying boats. It exploded over Pago Pago, American Samoa, on January 11, 1938, while piloted by famous aviator, Ed Musick. Musick and his crew of six died in the crash.

The aircraft developed an engine problem (caused by an oil leak)[1] shortly after taking off from Pago Pago Harbor. The S-42 was fully loaded with fuel and exceeding the gross weight maximum for a safe landing. Because of this, Captain Musick elected to dump fuel before attempting an emergency landing. However, because of the seaplane's weight and reduced power, the S-42 circled the harbor with flaps extended to maintain lift while fuel dumping was in progress. Apparently, Sikorsky and Pan American had never tested fuel dumping with flaps fully extended. The position of the fuel dump vents on the wing, coupled with the consequent airflow with extended flaps created a back flow of vaporizing fuel which lingered and grew around the trailing edge of the wing.
It is believed that an explosive fuel/air mixture eventually extended to the engine exhaust manifold causing a catastrophic detonation that destroyed the plane in flight."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoan_Clipper
This must be the place
 
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