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Author Topic: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time  (Read 76055 times)

Joe Cerniglia

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2013, 12:09:44 PM »

I'm certainly no glass expert but here's my opinion.

I can't see how these 'scratches' could have been made post-manufacturing.

There are two features annotated on the attachment. Imagine trying to scratch these into glass.

1. The scratches go over the sharp edge of a chip then down the side of the chip in a continuous path. I would expect the tool to 'jump' at the edge of the chip.

2. (Zoom In) These small 'scratches' are almost exactly parallel. It's really hard to image even a specialized tool to create such uniform marks. In addition, there are no microchips visible. Every time I've tried to scratch glass the edges had many micropits.

Overall, these marks appear to be way too uniform to be made by a survivor using a hand tool.

So, my uneducated guess is that something in the manufacturing process caused them. Maybe while cooling?

That's number 3 of our working hypotheses, a manufacturing anomaly. Great work! So far as I recall, the lines did not extend into any areas of the shard that were inaccessible while it was whole. In other words, the lines didn't extend into the chipped edges. What you have annotated is the concave side of the interior, into which the scratches extend. If the scratches had extended into the chipped edges, this would imply to me that they were formed after the jar was broken. (However, this only shows the marks COULD have been made prior to breakage; it does not prove they were made prior to breakage.) It's all surface wear on the inside, not the outside (aka, obverse or flat bottom portion). I have some additional data from our bottle guru to apply to this idea, but that will need to wait until I have it handy.

Edit: I just took another look at your photo, Doug, and I can see now the chip you're pointing out. As I recall, the inside of the chip appeared to be "fissured" in some way, but these fissures did not appear to correspond with the surface scratches.  The direction of the marks shifted noticeably once you got into the chipped part of the surface.  This is more easily seen when the shard is handled than in a photo.  It is possible, however, that whatever marks exist on the shard may not be limited to a single event.  We could be seeing multiple events over its lifetime.

Here is a clue as to a working hypothesis I had.  What do you think?

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 01:55:32 PM by Joe Cerniglia »
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Ted G Campbell

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2013, 02:11:47 PM »

Caused by a mixer to mix the ingredients (say at a drug store) during local manufacturing?
Ted Campbell
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2013, 02:16:43 PM »

Caused by a mixer to mix the ingredients (say at a drug store) during local manufacturing?
Ted Campbell

In a word, yes.  That's what I was thinking, along with my friend Danny Kaye in the above "clue." The mixer to my mind could be your local, friendly, discerning (at least to attractive jars) and oh-so-discreet pharmacist.

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR
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Doug Giese

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2013, 02:44:20 PM »

Joe,

I couldn't make such precise nearly parallel lines on the glass without a specialized tool (or a diamond bracelet in some long forgotten TV show).

Do the 'scratches' show any micropitting or microchips as the the tool scraped along the surface? Do the scratches feel rough?


(Edit) Ted: Yes, using the bottle as a mortar with a pestle is a possibility. Rapid mixing could cause repetitive scratching, if the pestle were hard enough to scratch the mortar. In the photo, it appears the scratches could represent mixing from different directions.

In either case I can't see a survivor making the scratches. However if AE used compounded creams that could be significant.
------
Doug
 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 03:02:49 PM by Doug Giese »
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2013, 03:18:43 PM »

For anyone who might be interested in another explanation of the lines in the "freckle cream jar", here is an article about the Hertzain cone as it pertains to glass. I have also included an annotated picture of the area of the "freckle cream jar" in question and pictures of examples of glass fractures, including a Hertzain cone, for comparison.
Woody (former 3316R)
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2013, 05:07:21 PM »

That is another explanation, and I am interested, and very glad you brought it up.  The Hertzian cone as it's described in the article seems to depend on some sort of projectile or object strike, if my fast reading is correct. We didn't find any clear evidence of projectile strikes, although a highly glanced blow is, I suppose, possible.  The shard is fractured but shows no obvious central impact, or impact crater.  A use wear expert examined other shards from the jar and did not note these types of features.

I like the concept but I'm having difficulty getting it to fit what I saw. But nothing is impossible.

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR

« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 05:29:35 PM by Joe Cerniglia »
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2013, 06:19:13 PM »

That is another explanation, and I am interested, and very glad you brought it up.  The Hertzian cone as it's described in the article seems to depend on some sort of projectile or object strike, if my fast reading is correct. We didn't find any clear evidence of projectile strikes, although a highly glanced blow is, I suppose, possible.  The shard is fractured but shows no obvious central impact, or impact crater.  A use wear expert examined other shards from the jar and did not note these types of features.

I like the concept but I'm having difficulty getting it to fit what I saw. But nothing is impossible.

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR

Joe, most of what is shown in my picture 1 is, in my opinion, the "crater". What I think is the impact point I put the red box around in the same picture. The impact occurred on the opposite side of the jar (outside) and was a "low velocity impact", possibly caused by the jar being dropped on an object on the ground. The impact was also right at the edge of the thicker base of the jar. This distorted the crater and moved most of it off center to the left as you view the picture. If this impact occurred while the jar was still intact, the other part of the base will probably also have the fracturing or chipping inside like this part has.
Woody (former 3316R)
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2013, 07:03:29 PM »

Maybe.  It's possible I can see stress lines where the radial scratches form into different zones.

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:09:23 PM by Joe Cerniglia »
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2013, 07:29:16 PM »

Your suggestion has prompted me to read up on "fractography," a subject of which I'm unfamiliar (and with which I will only be slightly less unfamiliar after this post).

There's a type of glass damage called "Wallner lines," and it seems to fit.  Here's the definition, as found here:
Wallner lines are faint, striation-like markings formed by the interaction of stress waves reflected from
physical boundaries with the advancing crack front.

This FBI fact sheet on glass forensics talks about them as well.

C.W., you've led me to consider an obvious cause of the scratches - stress on the glass from shattering - that we had not considered.  Due to its simplicity, it would be in my opinion a cause favorable to Occam.  Once again, the Forum helps light the way!

As you can see, we were far too unsure of ourselves to mention this topic in our paper.  I can see now that erring on the side of caution before consulting with this group was a wise move.

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR
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Lisa Grinnell

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2013, 07:59:40 PM »

Bingo! Makes sense. Lisa
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2013, 08:07:04 PM »

Your suggestion has prompted me to read up on "fractography," a subject of which I'm unfamiliar (and with which I will only be slightly less unfamiliar after this post)........

C.W., you've led me to consider an obvious cause of the scratches - stress on the glass from shattering - that we had not considered.  Due to its simplicity, it would be in my opinion a cause favorable to Occam.  Once again, the Forum helps light the way!

As you can see, we were far too unsure of ourselves to mention this topic in our paper.  I can see now that erring on the side of caution before consulting with this group was a wise move.

Joe Cerniglia ~ TIGHAR #3078ECR

Joe, I don't claim to be a glass expert and my reason for bringing this up was to get you to do a little more research. I think I have done that and maybe helped you to solve the mystery.

You do good work. Keep it up.
Woody (former 3316R)
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John Ousterhout

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2013, 09:39:35 PM »

See also conchoidal fracture for information about glass fracture patterns (my wife's specialty): "...Conchoidal fractures often result in a curved breakage surface that resembles the rippling, gradual curves of a mussel shell; the word "conchoid" is derived from the word for this animal (Greek konche[1]). A swelling appears at the point of impact called the bulb of percussion. Shock waves emanating outwards from this point leave their mark on the stone as ripples. Other conchoidal features include small fissures emanating from the bulb of percussion..."
a tutorial on fracture analysis
and finally (warning: high geek content) , see also a really well done paper by an undergraduate student  that is NOT related to glass fractures.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2013, 08:26:59 AM »

More good stuff. Thanks John!
Woody (former 3316R)
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Kent Beuchert

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2014, 09:03:22 AM »

It was suggested that the freckle cream bottle may have washed ashore. From the description it would seem that it must have been broken by human hands, irregardless.
    My question is whether anyone has determined whether such a bottle (which is apparently quite heavy) could have actually floated in water, and if so, how empty did it have to be in order to do so?
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Mark Pearce

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Re: New Artifact Report: A Freckle in Time
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2014, 10:55:53 AM »


We don't know for certain that it is a freckle-cream jar.  The great problem is that all freckle-cream jars found so far are milk glass, not transparent.


Maybe it's a shoe polish jar? 



https://www.etsy.com/listing/89163394/two-old-jars-of-red-shoe-polish
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