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Author Topic: Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched  (Read 13462 times)

Al Leonard

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Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched
« on: March 21, 2013, 11:35:33 AM »

Sorry if this topic has been previously discussed but I'm wondering if on previous Tighar expedetions the Arundel camp was examined. The reason I ask is that perhaps some of the artifacts found at the Seven Site might have come from the Arundel camp. Assuming the castaway found the Arundel camp remains she/he might have found something useful there  and brought it to the Seven Site. This is obviously speculation, and an aside, but I find it a bit odd that Amelia and Fred would have carried a Benedictine bottle on their flight. I can see something like that having been discarded by an Arundel worker or overseer and left to be found and brought by a castaway to store drinking water.  It would be worthwhile to investigate the Norwich City survivor's camp (if location is known) to look for items that match those found at the 7 site.

The castaway  did not have a lot of survival gear, so anything that might be useful from these two sites would be re-used for her/his survival

Alf
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John A Fisher

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Re: Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2013, 03:06:04 AM »

My understanding for what it is worth, after reading the Ameliapedia, is that the settlement has not been properly surveyed. There is a general idea of its locations but nothing else. As it was a part of the plantation area during the PISS occupation I would like to think that it would be, if located properly, shown to have minimal disturbance from the later activities. I've been following this project for a long while but only as a guest and it was only in the last week or so I decided to join the discussion. TIGHAR doesn't need another ill-informed voice I told myself but the Arundel period of settlement has always interested me as there appears to be so little information beyond "some people tried to plant coconuts then left" type information. But to me it seems that as it was near to the wreck of the Norwich City and if Earhart and Noonan had landed as TIGHAR theorise then that location would be a natural magnet for investigation. I've never been marooned but I like to think that I would look for the nearest evidence of habitation if there was one and stop there.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2013, 05:19:22 AM »

... to me it seems that as it was near to the wreck of the Norwich City and if Earhart and Noonan had landed as TIGHAR theorise then that location would be a natural magnet for investigation. I've never been marooned but I like to think that I would look for the nearest evidence of habitation if there was one and stop there.

You're not alone in this line of thought.

TIGHAR has been talking about searching for Camp Zero in recent years. 

It's on the "wish list" for future expeditions, I believe.
LTM,

           Marty
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Al Leonard

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Re: Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 10:46:48 PM »

Another possible source of the Benedictine Bottle could be the SS Norwich City. The ship was broken open and the interior was accessible to a castaway. A Benedictine bottle sounds like something that could have been on the ship--sailors and liquor kind of go together after all, at least in our popular imagination. The castaway would have known the ship was there and would have searched it for things useful for survival.

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Al Leonard

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Re: Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2013, 12:03:17 AM »

Perhaps there is a better place to post this question, but maybe this is an ok spot, too.

My question is: Have any of the Tighar expeditions to Nikumaroro ever turned up evidence that the Colonists scavenged items from the Norwich City?

When the US Navy investigated the wreck, they reported crockery and 'silver' (I think this meant knives, forks, and spoons) in the Captain's cabin. So, there were items from the Norwich City that they (the colonists) may have found useful, though not necessarily the crockery or silver. To a castaway with little in the way of survival gear, knives and forks and crockery would be useful tools for survival, of course...

« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 02:39:36 PM by Al Leonard »
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Will Hatchell

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Re: Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2013, 07:29:00 PM »

When the US Navy investigated the wreck, they reported crockery and 'silver' (I think this meant knives, forks, and spoons) in the Captain's cabin. So, there were items from the Norwich City that they (the colonists) may have found useful, though not necessarily the crockery or silver. To a castaway with little in the way of survival gear, knives and forks and crockery would be useful tools for survival, of course...

Al,

Can you post your source for the US Naval investigation of the NC? I'm curious when this occurred as well as whether they issued a detailed inventory report or just a general description. Thanks kindly.
Hatch

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John Ousterhout

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Re: Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2013, 10:19:08 PM »

Whilst looking for information concerning any US Naval investigation of the NC wreck, I noticed something significant:
"At dawn on Tuesday several men went to the beach to look for ships, but seeing none, returned to camp. An issue of milk and a biscuit was made, before several men walked to the other side of the island. Two ships were then spotted which came around to the wreck side of the island: one from the north and one from the south. Everyone gathered on the beach as the Lincoln Ellsworth lowered a motor boat, and the Trongate lowered the whale boat from her aft deck." (from http://tighar.org/wiki/SS_Norwich_City)
The thing that jumped out at me was the line "...several men walked to the other side of the island..."
There is precious little information there, other than the statement that "several" people walked far enough "around" the island to be able to see the rescue ships approaching "...one from the north and one from the south...".  Is this a fair suggestion of some place near the "7 site", or is the interpretation that the "several" people headed NW, rather than heading around the south end of the island?
Cheers,
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2013, 06:30:56 AM »

Whilst looking for information concerning any US Naval investigation of the NC wreck, I noticed something significant:
"At dawn on Tuesday several men went to the beach to look for ships, but seeing none, returned to camp. An issue of milk and a biscuit was made, before several men walked to the other side of the island. Two ships were then spotted which came around to the wreck side of the island: one from the north and one from the south. Everyone gathered on the beach as the Lincoln Ellsworth lowered a motor boat, and the Trongate lowered the whale boat from her aft deck." (from http://tighar.org/wiki/SS_Norwich_City)
The thing that jumped out at me was the line "...several men walked to the other side of the island..."
There is precious little information there, other than the statement that "several" people walked far enough "around" the island to be able to see the rescue ships approaching "...one from the north and one from the south...".  Is this a fair suggestion of some place near the "7 site", or is the interpretation that the "several" people headed NW, rather than heading around the south end of the island?

Everything depends on what the author meant by "other," "side," and "island," as well as some assumptions that have to be made about the visibility of the two ships from various points out of view of the wreck site.

The closest "other side" is the other shore of Nutiran.  Circle that point of land and, after a relatively short trek, you are out of sight of the wreck and can see two ships approaching the island from a distance, one steaming for the NW tip (Nutiran) and the other for the southeast tip (Ameriki).  I suppose you might even be able to retrace your steps and shout "ships in sight" before either one would be visible from the wreck.

It is impossible to say that the 7 site is not on "the other side of the island."  But if you're trying to get the scouting party to leave a skeleton, a sextant box, shoe parts, corks on brass chains, and a Benedictine bottle (or some subset of the detritus), that seems like more of a stretch.  I can't imagine them getting that far, since they still had provisions at their base camp.  Your mileage may vary (YMMV).  I know that I am offering a "coulda, woulda, shoulda" argument here.





LTM,

           Marty
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Al Leonard

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Re: Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2013, 07:04:57 PM »

When the US Navy investigated the wreck, they reported crockery and 'silver' (I think this meant knives, forks, and spoons) in the Captain's cabin. So, there were items from the Norwich City that they (the colonists) may have found useful, though not necessarily the crockery or silver. To a castaway with little in the way of survival gear, knives and forks and crockery would be useful tools for survival, of course...

Al,

Can you post your source for the US Naval investigation of the NC? I'm curious when this occurred as well as whether they issued a detailed inventory report or just a general description. Thanks kindly.

Look at through the USS Bushnell papers. You won't find a detailed inventory report, just a few general comments about the ship, because they weren't there to investigate the Norwich City, they were there to map Nikumaroro.

A curious detail, as I remember it, is that the Bushnell report says that indications of the name Norwich City had been removed from the wreck.


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Al Leonard

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Re: Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2013, 07:10:06 PM »

Whilst looking for information concerning any US Naval investigation of the NC wreck, I noticed something significant:
"At dawn on Tuesday several men went to the beach to look for ships, but seeing none, returned to camp. An issue of milk and a biscuit was made, before several men walked to the other side of the island. Two ships were then spotted which came around to the wreck side of the island: one from the north and one from the south. Everyone gathered on the beach as the Lincoln Ellsworth lowered a motor boat, and the Trongate lowered the whale boat from her aft deck." (from http://tighar.org/wiki/SS_Norwich_City)
The thing that jumped out at me was the line "...several men walked to the other side of the island..."
There is precious little information there, other than the statement that "several" people walked far enough "around" the island to be able to see the rescue ships approaching "...one from the north and one from the south...".  Is this a fair suggestion of some place near the "7 site", or is the interpretation that the "several" people headed NW, rather than heading around the south end of the island?

Everything depends on what the author meant by "other," "side," and "island," as well as some assumptions that have to be made about the visibility of the two ships from various points out of view of the wreck site.

The closest "other side" is the other shore of Nutiran.  Circle that point of land and, after a relatively short trek, you are out of sight of the wreck and can see two ships approaching the island from a distance, one steaming for the NW tip (Nutiran) and the other for the southeast tip (Ameriki).  I suppose you might even be able to retrace your steps and shout "ships in sight" before either one would be visible from the wreck.

It is impossible to say that the 7 site is not on "the other side of the island."  But if you're trying to get the scouting party to leave a skeleton, a sextant box, shoe parts, corks on brass chains, and a Benedictine bottle (or some subset of the detritus), that seems like more of a stretch.  I can't imagine them getting that far, since they still had provisions at their base camp.  Your mileage may vary (YMMV).  I know that I am offering a "coulda, woulda, shoulda" argument here.



Thanks for the map. I often have trouble remembering which parts of the island have which names, so this will be handy.

FWIW, I would agree with Martin's comments. My guess is that the Norwich City sailors 'rounded the horn' at Nutiran, but never got any farther than maybe where Taraia begins on the above map. But I admit that is just my gut feeling.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Has the Arundel Camp been found/searched
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2013, 07:51:32 PM »

Thanks for the map. I often have trouble remembering which parts of the island have which names, so this will be handy.

I have trouble with the names, too.  That's why I assembled that image.

There is a gallery of Niku Maps on the wiki.
LTM,

           Marty
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