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Author Topic: Possible Rope video (2012)  (Read 107461 times)

richie conroy

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2012, 04:06:32 PM »

Obviously due to lack of any electrical wire i think it safe to say the wire/rope is possible off ov norwich city, Attached to tie downs on wings

Well to be more precise the right wing as i believe the rope meant for left wing was attached to gear assembly. I.E Bevington object
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2012, 05:09:10 PM »

As I understand this, the topic is Possible Rope Video which has now evolved to an antenna or control cable.

Yes, the topic is Possible Rope Video.  Other possibilities are being discussed. Nothing wrong with that.

  My research has concluded that in 1937 antennas were generally copper clad steel.  Two dissimilar metals.  Were it this type of antenna, galvanic corrosion would have reduced it to nothing in the past 75 years.  If it is a control cable, the same would apply due to being in an electrolytic (salt water) environment for that long.  Given that, there would be no need to look further for any hardware that connected either as none would be found in the debris field.

Invalid.  Unsupported speculation stated as fact.

As witnessed by the little that is left of the Norwich City after 83 years a mostly steel ship, rust and corrosion has reduced it to a mere skeleton.  A mostly aluminum airplane with many dissimilar parts would likely be reduced to almost nothing due to galvanic/electrolytic corrosion.

Nonsense. There are dozens of examples of aluminum aircraft submerged in salt water for similar periods that survive in good condition.

  And to my knowledge there were no zinc anodes attached to the Electra that would have protected it for very long if there were any.  Those would have been eaten up in a very short period of time anyway.  There are eight different types of corrosion in a salt water environment, (too much to define here) most if not all would fatally destroy any fasteners on control cables or antennas.  It is however possible that chromium plated stainless steel fasteners could have survived but those came along after 1937 as far as I know and could show some deleterious effects.

This kind of opinion stated as fact is not helpful and I'm letting this posting stand only as an example of what not to do.  If you have research that supports your opinion, cite your sources.

For example, if you want to argue against the survival of antenna wire you could point out that the TBD-1 Devastator - a design contemporary with the Electra - had a wire antenna that went from a mast in front of the cockpit to the top of the vertical fin.  The TBD-1s in Jaluit lagoon - one at 50 feet, the other at 125 feet - have been there for 70 years. No antenna appears to be present on either aircraft.
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william patterson

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2012, 05:36:27 PM »

It looks like Polyester boating rope to me. One that has been in the water a few years, at least long enough to coat it in silt and algae growth.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2012, 05:39:53 PM »

For example, if you want to argue against the survival of antenna wire you could point out that the TBD-1 Devastator - a design contemporary with the Electra - had a wire antenna that went from a mast in front of the cockpit to the top of the vertical fin.  The TBD-1s in Jaluit lagoon - one at 50 feet, the other at 125 feet - have been there for 70 years. No antenna appears to be present on either aircraft.

Of course, many things are missing, including the rear canopy and cowling. Also, depth means that environment is somewhate different.

Tim
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 06:55:54 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2012, 05:43:37 PM »

It looks like Polyester boating rope to me. One that has been in the water a few years, at least long enough to coat it in silt and algae growth.

IMHO, the threads are too flat and too few for it to be boating rope. And the rings towards each termination mitigate against boating, and for antenna.
Tim
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2012, 06:33:45 PM »

Of course, many things are missing, including the rear canopy and cowling. Also, depth means that environment is somewhate different.

Hardly anything is missing.  That's what's so remarkable about this aircraft.  The cowling pieces have fallen off and/or corroded away.  We don't know why.  The canopy sections are all in place in the open position.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2012, 06:36:50 PM »

A closer view of the TBD radio mast confirms that there is no wire present.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2012, 06:50:26 PM »

  The canopy sections are all in place in the open position.

Agreed. Good picture.
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2012, 07:03:01 PM »

Quote
For example, if you want to argue against the survival of antenna wire you could point out that the TBD-1 Devastator - a design contemporary with the Electra - had a wire antenna that went from a mast in front of the cockpit to the top of the vertical fin.  The TBD-1s in Jaluit lagoon - one at 50 feet, the other at 125 feet - have been there for 70 years. No antenna appears to be present on either aircraft.

Thanks Ric, I'll rest my case on the issue.  The antennas corroded away.  8)

Quote
IMHO, the threads are too flat and too few for it to be boating rope. And the rings towards each termination mitigate against boating, and for antenna.

Tim, "The threads are too flat"?  They don't look very flat here.  My guess is a rope or line deposited long after the Electra slid down that slope.
Doc
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 10:23:23 PM by Bob Lanz »
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2012, 10:13:41 PM »

Tim, what do you make of the object circled in the attached pic?
Doc
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 10:15:16 PM by Bob Lanz »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2012, 11:24:32 PM »

Tim, what do you make of the object circled in the attached pic?
.         

Looks like the outside case of the HF transmitter.
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« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 01:42:01 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #71 on: December 23, 2012, 12:49:12 AM »

Tim, what do you make of the object circled in the attached pic?
.         

Looks like the outside case of HF transmitter. See "Summary of Debris" thread.                                   

Can you show a picture of the type of HF transmitter that was on the Electra with the same image I circled on it?  This might lend some credibility to your identification of the HF transmitter.
Doc
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #72 on: December 23, 2012, 06:32:06 AM »

Tim, what do you make of the object circled in the attached pic?

Bob, the attached photograph is of a typical airline HF radio, not necessarily the Western Electric 13C transmitter.CORRECTION: I imagine the bottom portion would have bee removed to the cockpit as it appears to have the control functions associated. The fourth picture shows, faintly, a control dial similar to the one on the knee panel in the cockpit. The Amplifier in the far top corner might be the tube that is showing in the Debris field snapshot. I think that Bob Brandenburg ought to be consulted on the specifics, as I know next to nothing about radios, new or old. The components I noted can be seen through a hole in the side of the transmitter that is above and to the right of the circle you drew (second picture attached).

Don't you find it somewhat ironic that this transmitter, if that is what it is, is on top of the"rope" you say was thrown down long after the Electra arrived at this place?
Tim
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« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 07:53:20 AM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #73 on: December 23, 2012, 07:26:25 AM »

Quote
IMHO, the threads are too flat and too few for it to be boating rope. And the rings towards each termination mitigate against boating, and for antenna.

Tim, "The threads are too flat"?  They don't look very flat here.  My guess is a rope or line deposited long after the Electra slid down that slope.

Pictures comparing braided hemp (3 strands), typical for the time, and a section of the "alleged" HF antenna cable (only 2 strands). The little valleys between the strands look deeper on the hemp sample, IMHO.
Tim
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Possible Rope video (2012)
« Reply #74 on: December 23, 2012, 07:41:35 AM »

Can anything be noted about the condition of control cables within the TBDs from any of TIGHARs data or photos of them?

I'll look but I don't think we have photos of anywhere within the aircraft where control cables would be visible.
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