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Historic Aircraft Recovery and Preservation => War / Service Related Aircraft topics => Topic started by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 12, 2012, 10:06:03 AM

Title: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 12, 2012, 10:06:03 AM
This is the body of an e-mail sent to TIGHAR today.

The serial numbers were not in the e-mail.


From: Diving School of Bolsena Lake, Italy

On June 1944 a USAF B17 Flying Fortress was shot down by two German Fighters and crashed into the Bolsena Lake. None of the crew was found.

After research the Diving School found several pieces of the plane at a depth of 90 meters.

Now we write you because we need your help.

Our mission is give a name to those who lost their lives for our freedom.

In the Museum of our city we will put the parts of B17 and a plaque with the names of the crew members. A place where families can remember their loved ones.

Yesterday, during a dive. we found a small metal plate of the Engine Starter in perfect condition with the following written

AVIATION ENGINE STARTERCORPS TYPE. . . . . . . . .
MFR'S DWG NO. . . . .
SPEC NO

ACCEPTANCE. . . . . .
ECLIPSE AVIATIONDIVISION OF BBENDIX


AVIATION CORPORATION
BENDIX. N. J.
MADE IN USA

and also a lever with a handle and written ADEL

So. are you able to found the serial number of the plane with the serial numbers of the Engine Starter?

Do you have any news about a B 17 shot down over Bolsena Italy on June '44?

Could you know the names of the crew members of that mission?

Please give us as soon as possible all the info you can find.

Thank you so much.

Mario Di Sorte
BOLSENA ITALY

Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 12, 2012, 10:44:03 AM
Ok----I'll start. Whether the serial #'s were on the starter or not, is probably irrelevent as far as determining what B17 it was. Parts were changed in the field, and sometimes parts were removed from other non flightworthy aircraft.
Interesting find though.
Tom
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 13, 2012, 05:10:59 AM
Mario sent me a very excellent photo of the plate from the starter.

Aviation Engine Starter
...ORPS TYPE G-6  MFR's. DWG. NO. 104344-915-4 [remainder obscured]
[unknown field, apparently blank] SPEC. NO. 32304 ACCEPTANCE [two stamped marks]
ECLIPSE AVIATION
DIVISION OF BENDIX AVIATION CORPORATION
BENDIX, N.J., MADE IN U.S.A.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 13, 2012, 07:32:38 AM
The expedition boat and one of the crew working on the identification of the B-17.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 13, 2012, 09:51:45 AM
Marty

Likely to be a ship from...

Constituted as Fifteenth AIR FORCE on 30 Oct 1943.
Activated in the Mediterranean Theater on 1 Nov 1943.
Began operations on 2 Nov 1943 engaged primarily in strategic bombardment
of targets in Italy, France, Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Hungary
and the Balkans until the end of the war.
Inactivated in Italy on 15 Sep 1945.


http://www.frankambrose.com/pages/groups.html (http://www.frankambrose.com/pages/groups.html)

I am trawling through the various bomb groups to narrow down the likeliest suspects. If they can eye ball any ID on the tail it will give us the Bomb group, it's a start.

Are they certain about the date of the shoot down Marty, because if so it is the most important piece of evidence that will help identification
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 13, 2012, 04:49:13 PM
Mario gave us permission to publish his photos.  He'll send more after the next dive.

Here is a small image of the starter ID.  The attachment below is 4 or 5 MB.

(http://i46.tinypic.com/24vtt0h.jpg)
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 13, 2012, 05:39:31 PM
Ok thanks Marty

Here are some images of what the ID plate was attached to...
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 13, 2012, 06:11:40 PM
From an e-mail to Mario from Craig Fuller:

With the exception of occasionally engines and machine guns, there is not a way to tie individual component numbers to a specific airframe. This information was not recorded and parts were swapped out regularly in the field during maintenance.

Attached is a MACR list for losses in Italy, I would suggest doing so and seeing if any fall in the area your crash is located at. Keep in mind the Column "MACR Location" is not necessarily where the plane went down, but where the plane was last seen. If there is a location given in the "KU Location" (German Reports), this is usually much more accurate.

It is also possible that this was not a combat loss, but an operation accident. In which case it should be listed here:

 http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/dbacnty.asp?country=ITA&Submit=Go (http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/dbacnty.asp?country=ITA&Submit=Go)

(Note this is the first page of the list and you will need to keep clicking NEXT at the bottom of the page to see the rest.)

Sincerely,

Craig Fuller AAIR Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research

www.AviationArchaeology.com (http://www.AviationArchaeology.com)         

aair@aviationarchaeology.com
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 13, 2012, 06:34:54 PM
I am trawling through the various bomb groups to narrow down the likeliest suspects.

Thanks!

Quote
If they can eye ball any ID on the tail it will give us the Bomb group, it's a start.

They haven't said anything about the condition of the wreck.

They don't have their own web site to track what they're doing.

Quote
Are they certain about the date of the shoot down Marty, because if so it is the most important piece of evidence that will help identification.

That is an excellent question.  I don't have an equally excellent answer.  Two lines from the first e-mail make me think that they were deliberately searching the lake because they knew about the plane being shot down: "On June 1944 a USAF B17 Flying Fortress was shot down by two German Fighters and crashed into the Bolsena Lake. None of the crew was found. After research the Diving School found several pieces of the plane at a depth of 90 meters."

In 2001, a post on the Warbird Information Exchange (http://archive.warbirdinformationexchange.org/archives/post2455.html) said "Bolsena Lake.. B17 at 'great depth' surveyed but not recovered."
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Bill Roe on August 13, 2012, 06:46:20 PM
"None of the crew was found".

Does this mean that the crew may still be in the airplane or near it?  Isn't there some kind of USA Mia group who should be involved?  Getting our guys back should be a priority.

Edit:  further, have the Italians been advised how to proceed in the possibility of locating our guys?
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 20, 2012, 11:04:02 AM
Does this mean that the crew may still be in the airplane or near it?

From what I've heard from Mario so far, I get the impression that the wreck is in many pieces.  See my next post for an article about a 1960 group who spent four or five days diving on the wreck site.

Quote
Isn't there some kind of USA Mia group who should be involved?  Getting our guys back should be a priority.

My Italian is pretty weak, but I get the impression from the article attached in the next post that the dive was sponsored by "an American group devoted to identifying remains of airmen all around the world" (loose 'translation' from memory).

Quote
Edit:  further, have the Italians been advised how to proceed in the possibility of locating our guys?

Not by me.  I don't have any advice to give them.  Everything I know about them is in this thread already.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 20, 2012, 11:08:37 AM
Pictures of a new piece found on a recent dive.  Mario says that the wreck is a "puzzle," by which I think he means that it has broken into many pieces.  "Nobody knows what happened in November 1960. Some fishermen say that the plane was detonated [blew up?]. Effectively during the dive we can see something like a puzzle. There are a lot of parts. In the next few days we'll send you more photos."

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-QAbvzKVSzXg/UDJrB4orMjI/AAAAAAAAJVA/lUnCV_e-lxE/w466-h348-p-k/inspection%2Bplate.JPG)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DBYRUJ46QMI/UDJrB2nRSbI/AAAAAAAAJVI/qUKdgbCYui4/s515/back+of+plate.JPG)

An article in Italian about exploration of the wreck site in 1960.  As I said in my previous post, my Italian is weak, but I surmise that the wreck is deep (93 m?) and that it is cold, dark, and dangerous to dive down there.  The article refers to an American group, "Honor the Fallen," searching for remains of airmen lost in World War II, but does not name the group.  Any ideas who they might have been? [Mario answered this question from the article.]
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 21, 2012, 06:29:37 AM
Marty

The Bendix Eclipse G-6 was used on Consolidated B-24 Liberators as well...
“The Type G-6 Eclipse starter used on the B-24 is a combination electric and hand inertia starter, and in addition provides continuous cranking of the engine after the flywheel energy has been applied. This is accomplished by means of a heavy duty accelerating motor and a solenoid engaging device."

http://www.bomberlegends.com/pdf/BL_Mag_v1-4-TechTalk.pdf (http://www.bomberlegends.com/pdf/BL_Mag_v1-4-TechTalk.pdf)

The following link contains the Aviation Engine Starter
...ORPS TYPE G-6  MFR's. DWG. NO. 104344-915-4 [remainder obscured]
[unknown field, apparently blank] SPEC. NO. 32304  ACCEPTANCE [two stamped marks]
ECLIPSE AVIATION
DIVISION OF BENDIX AVIATION CORPORATION
BENDIX, N.J., MADE IN U.S.A.

Third ad' up from the bottom....
Series 43 Aircraft Starter.   Eclipse Aircraft Starter Type G-6A Spec 95-32304A

http://www.forgottenfield.com/amg/powerplant/ (http://www.forgottenfield.com/amg/powerplant/)

Which begs the question, is it a B-17 four engined plane or a B-24 four engined plane?


Here's why I say that...


3 December 2005 - After more than 60 years divers find the wreckage of a bomber in an Italian lake, reports Richard Owen.

ANNE STORM was only a year old when the birthday letter from her father arrived. Written on the eve of a mission in wartime Italy, it was the last that she would ever hear from her father, Flying Officer Bob Millar, Observer, RAAF. In the years to come she read it over and over, fuelling a life­long quest to trace the bomber in which he and seven comrades died. This week, after more than 60 years, that quest seems close to fulfilment with the discovery of an aircraft deep in an Italian lake.

Mrs Storm’s father went missing while flying in a Liberator bomber over Nazi-occupied northern Italy on 12 October 1944, to drop supplies to partisans. Six aircraft crashed in poor weather but the wreckages of five were located after the war.

Inspired to find the bomber by the tender lines written by her father, four years ago Mrs Storm visited the mountain villages where the partisans had been operating but could not find any leads.

She went to Neirone and Favale di Malvaro, villages in the mountains near Genoa, where the partisans had operated. “I spoke to the old men in the village squares, but they knew nothing about the fate of the Liberator, and in any case my Italian was not fluent enough,” she said.

She turned to Harry Shindler, the representative in Italy of the Star Association, an organisation for Second World War veterans who fought in the Italian campaigns. He studied the flight plan and concluded that the bomber must have disappeared in a lake. He pinpointed Lake Bolsena on the border between Lazio and Umbria and contracted a group of amateur divers to search it, resulting this week in the discovery of a “very large plane” 100 metres down.

http://www.theoddbods.org/2006_04/oddsnends12.htm (http://www.theoddbods.org/2006_04/oddsnends12.htm)

http://www.iphpbb.com/foren-archiv/3/139200/138320/b24-near-lake-bolsena-italy-81805422-79380-1849.html (http://www.iphpbb.com/foren-archiv/3/139200/138320/b24-near-lake-bolsena-italy-81805422-79380-1849.html)

I will try to source the parts you have posted up to see which type of four engined plane they belonged to.

Note: There's more than one aircraft at the bottom of that lake plus, one Chinook helicopter
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 21, 2012, 08:40:01 AM
... Note: There's more than one aircraft at the bottom of that lake plus, one Chinook helicopter

OK, the plot thickens.  Thanks for taking this on, Jeff!

:The latest from Mario: "Good morning Marty, thanks for your mail. What we are doing is not simple, but it becomes easier when we meet people like you. I would like to translate the beginning of the article I sent you: 'ONORANZE AI CADUTI ... HONOR THE FALLEN is the name of an organization in America which has existed for many years and operates all over the world. Mr. Schaefer directed the operations. Four, five days mean just the beginning of the research: they will remain here for more than a month.' Tomorrow we'll shoot video of the wreck from above to create a map."
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 21, 2012, 01:19:10 PM
Ok Marty, that sounds more promising.

The numbers visible on the part of the wreckage Mario sent come up as...

'Boeing helicopter flotation device' but I am sure it is probably just a coincidence as all the numbers are not visible/in shot.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 21, 2012, 01:33:19 PM
'Boeing helicopter flotation device' but I am sure it is probably just a coincidence as all the numbers are not visible/in shot.

The Chinook wreck seems to have been relatively intact in 2005 (http://www.deepimage.co.uk/wrecks/chinook/chinook.htm).  I imagine Mario and the gang are looking at a different wreck site.  Both of them are in deep water (93 and 100+ m).
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 22, 2012, 08:57:50 AM
From Mario:

The B-24 was lost in Northern Italy on 12 October 1944 during the night . But our B -17  was shot down on June 1944 on a sunny and hot day, 4 months before. We have a lot  of eyewitnesses. So that' s another story!

The author of the article that I sent you (he was one of the Sub [divers?] of  1960 expedition) wrote and described that they were definitely in a wreck of an American B-17 Flying Fortress.

MARCO PATUCCHI and HARRY SHINDLER wrote a book,  La mia guerra non è finita in which you'll find the exact and real story of B-24 (Dalai Editore 2011, 131-145). 

We know exactly how to proceed if we locate the remains of the crew ... if someone has not done it before (1960?).
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Bill Roe on August 22, 2012, 09:43:21 AM
From Mario:

We know exactly how to proceed if we locate the remains of the crew ... if someone has not done it before (1960?).


Thank you soooo much, Mario.    And thank you, Marty for this follow-up. 
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 24, 2012, 09:08:06 AM
From Mario:

"This is a photo of Massimiliano (Archaeological Diver and Vice-President of the Diving School of Bolsena (http://www.ssb.vt.it/organigramma.asp)) and me returning from shooting video this morning. I'm on the right side. Starting operations at 05.30 am. These days high temperature."

Mario has also sent me a picture that he will publish at a later time.  If I understand him correctly, it is definitive proof that they have found the B-17, not the B-24.  I'm not good enough with aircraft ID to confirm this.  I'm sure the group will publish all their findings in due course.

In the second e-mail, Mario said: "Today we talked on the phone with the widow of  one of the divers of the 1960 expedition. She told us that the mission was just to find the Crew, but we understood she knows other things as well."
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 25, 2012, 09:45:57 AM
Thanks for the info Marty. Shame it wasn't a B-24, there were only 2 of them MIA in that area :( as opposed to a myriad of B-17's MIA.
A B-17 search will take longer but Woody has volunteered his services as well and we are compiling a (growing) list of missing B-17's in/from that area and time span. Thanks Woody :)
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 25, 2012, 10:33:55 AM
Thanks for the info Marty. Shame it wasn't a B-24, there were only 2 of them MIA in that area :( as opposed to a myriad of B-17's MIA.
A B-17 search will take longer but Woody has volunteered his services as well and we are compiling a (growing) list of missing B-17's in/from that area and time span. Thanks Woody :)

Thanks to both of you--I don't have any extra time or energy to push this foward.   :-[
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 25, 2012, 10:54:56 AM
Thanks for the info Marty. Shame it wasn't a B-24, there were only 2 of them MIA in that area :( as opposed to a myriad of B-17's MIA.
A B-17 search will take longer but Woody has volunteered his services as well and we are compiling a (growing) list of missing B-17's in/from that area and time span. Thanks Woody :)

Thanks to both of you--I don't have any extra time or energy to push this foward.   :-[

No problem Marty. Just pass on any info Mario comes up with. We are working on a list of 10 MIA so far. A simple ID of the tail would give the bomb group thus reducing the list to 2 or 3.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: C.W. Herndon on August 27, 2012, 05:27:13 AM
Here is a link to the JPAC Central Identification Laboratory (http://www.jpac.pacom.mil/index.php?page=cil) which is, apparently, now responsible for recovering and identifying the remains of our missing service personnel.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Dave McDaniel on August 28, 2012, 02:14:58 PM
Hi All, have you guys tried these guys yet? You may have to mention the FOIA, but they won't give you the run-around.
Best of luck...Dave

Airforce Historical Research Agency
600 Chennault Cr.
Maxwell,AFB Al.  36112-6424

(334) 953-2395
Mon-Fri, 8:30AM-4:00PM, CDT

www.afhra.af.mil
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 28, 2012, 04:46:21 PM
One of the two agencies might be able to answer one of Mario's questions, which is: Did the 1960 American expedition recovery any remains?

My assumption is that someone might have a list of remains recovered from Bolsena Lake (if any).
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 29, 2012, 10:33:11 AM
Sold Date: 04/05/2008
Channel: Online Auction
Source: eBay
Category: Militaria & Weapons
My Father-in-Law was captured in Italy after parachuting from his disabled B-17 (now on the bottom of Lake Bolsena) in January, 1944. He was shot during his descent. He ended up in an Officer's prison camp in Barth , Germany for 15 months, which housed both British and American captured officers, and was liberated by the Russians in 1945.

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/p-o-w-jacket-from-stalag-luft-i-officers-camp   (http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/p-o-w-jacket-from-stalag-luft-i-officers-camp)

Will try to follow this lead but, suspect the date is wrong. List of B-17's missing in vicinity of Lake Bolsena coming along. Going through ALL B-17 losses over Italy to ensure none escape and, to confirm list.



Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 29, 2012, 10:42:25 AM
Will try to follow this lead but, suspect the date is wrong.

You might try the Wayback Machine (http://archive.org/web/web.php) to see if you can get at the original e-bay id or e-mail mentioned in the text.

I don't know whether the Wayback archives e-bay ...

Quote
List of B-17's missing in vicinity of Lake Bolsena coming along. Going through ALL B-17 losses over Italy to ensure none escape and, to confirm list.

Very much appreciated!
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 05, 2012, 10:45:50 AM
Latest update from Mario:

Buonasera Marty. During our research, a fisherman gave us some oxygen cylinders that his father had recovered in 1944 after the crash of the plane and used as floats for fishing nets. We are continuing our work and hope for more results in the next two weeks. Thanks a lot!

Mario
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on September 06, 2012, 01:36:20 PM
Thanks for the O2 tanks information Marty. They are in remarkable condition considering their age and continuous use since as fishing net floats, well built they were for sure.
These oxygen tanks were common to and inter-changeable with B-17's and B-24's. They were designed with this in mind. The 15th airforce for example which had some bomb groups that flew B-17's and others B-24's, having gear that was compatible with both types made servicing, maintenance and turnaround easier and quicker.
Which makes identification of aircraft in lake still 'pending' unfortunately.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 14, 2012, 10:43:44 AM
Buonasera Marty,

While waiting to make our next dive, I found a 1960 newspaper with an article on the American mission in Bolsena. I translated the most important parts.

     “After sixteen years, the ending of a tragedy in Bolsena."

"Three World Champions to recover from the lake the bodies of the pilots of a downed plane."

They are Cesare Olgiai, Alberto Novelli and Ennio Falco who last summer beat the world record of dive reaching 131 meters. The research was led by Mister Scheaffer of the Grave Registration Commission (GRC). The wreck of the "Flying Fortress" is at 93 meters depth.

The three divers arrived from Naples to assist the GRC, a research office attached to the Southern European Task Force (SETAF), to recover the bodies of the allied pilots on board the Flying Fortress when it crashed in the Lake sixteen years ago.

The mission is headed by Mr. Scheaffer, a US Army Officer on the GRC staff based in Frankfurt. With him is Sergeant Stufflebeam and Mr. Licio Polidori from Livorno, an interpreter who works in the Italian counterpart of the GRC, and head of the Italian team.

The Flying Fortress was part of a large formation of planes that in the summer of 1944 were sent to bomb an important city in North Italy. Over Bolsena the big plane was intercepted and shot down by two Stukas and an Italian Fighter ...”

Marty, it would be interesting to know the final report of the mission. What can we do ?

Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 14, 2012, 11:06:01 AM
Marty, Jeff Hayden and I have what we think is a pretty complete list of the B-17s that were lost over Italy during the month of June, 1944. Unfortunately, the records do not show where the aircraft craft crashed. They usually show where they were last seen. If we knew the day the aircraft in the lake crashed there, we could better determine which one it was and obtain a list of the crew members. 
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 14, 2012, 11:32:18 AM
Marty, Jeff Hayden and I have what we think is a pretty complete list of the B-17s that were lost over Italy during the month of June, 1944. Unfortunately, the records do not show where the aircraft craft crashed. They usually show where they were last seen. If we knew the day the aircraft in the lake crashed there, we could better determine which one it was and obtain a list of the crew members.

Would you be able to tackle it from the other end?  Can you contact Grave Registration Commission or their successor?
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 14, 2012, 12:57:40 PM
Would you be able to tackle it from the other end?  Can you contact Grave Registration Commission or their successor?

I don't know Marty. We'll have to do some checking about that.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on September 14, 2012, 01:08:45 PM
Would you be able to tackle it from the other end?  Can you contact Grave Registration Commission or their successor?

I don't know Marty. We'll have to do some checking about that.

Using this information we will be able to narrow the search quite considerably Woody...

The Flying Fortress was part of a large formation of planes that in the summer of 1944 were sent to bomb an important city in North Italy. Over Bolsena the big plane was intercepted and shot down by two Stukas and an Italian Fighter ...”

Knowing the target narrows down the search. A lot of the planes we have listed were targeting outside of italy.

Although the 'shot down by two Stukas' seems odd as the Stuka was predominantly a dive bomber. A possible error in the eyewitness accounts or, maybe there was a Luftwaffe unit that converted Stukas to a fighter role? Which would narrow down the search even further.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Bill Roe on September 14, 2012, 02:36:01 PM
Ja, Rudel was a JU-87 Ace. 

Hayden is correct though - the Stuka was designed to be a dive bomber.  However this is the first reference to any being near the Italian front.  At that time, most had been sent to the Eastern Front to annihilate the Russian Air Force.  And, at that time the Stukas were really obsolete - that's why the Eastern Front.

Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Chris Johnson on September 14, 2012, 04:01:09 PM
OK its not good to post without a source but I did see a documentary recently about Stukas and various variants (including a tank buster) so its not inconceivable that there was a variant able to shoot down a bomber.  Alternately the Italian may have done it?
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Bill Roe on September 14, 2012, 04:11:35 PM
OK its not good to post without a source ....................

Um.....

A combat pilot is an ace when he achieves 5 aircraft shot down by his own hand.  Rudel was a German Ace flying a Stuka (JU-87 Dive Bomber).  Therefore he was using his Stuka as a fighter.  I'll leave it up to you to prove me wrong.  BTW - I believe that Rudel may have been the most highly decorated German during WWll.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Bill Roe on September 14, 2012, 04:18:37 PM
Okay - Here ya go, Chris......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

Hans-Ulrich Rudel (2 July 1916 – 18 December 1982) was a Stuka dive-bomber pilot during World War II and a member of the Nazi Party. The most highly decorated German serviceman of the war, Rudel was one of only 27 military men to be awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds, and the only person to be awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds (Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit goldenem Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillanten), Germany's highest military decoration.[Note 1]

Rudel flew 2,530 combat missions claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed; including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery pieces, a destroyer, two cruisers, one Soviet battleship, 70 landing craft, 4 armored trains, several bridges and nine aircraft which he shot down.[1]

Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Monte Chalmers on September 14, 2012, 05:28:24 PM
  Alternately the Italian may have done it?
This is an interesting thread.  There is one point that I keep reading, though, that I believe is in error.  It's this Italian thing.  The Allied forces invaded Italy in
September 1943 - and soon after, Italy surrendered.  So it would seem to me that there wouldn't be an Italian fighter in the summer of 1944.









s
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Bill Roe on September 14, 2012, 07:46:08 PM
OK its not good to post without a source .....

Oops!  Chris - were you referring to your post or mine above re Rudel being an ace?  I think I screwed up.  If so, my apologies.  Rather than remove the posts, I'll leave them as others may find Rudel's stats interesting.  I'm glad I never came up against him - even in his half-way fighter Stuka.  And I wish he had been on our side.  Gotta admire the guy.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Bruce Thomas on September 14, 2012, 07:48:17 PM
So it would seem to me that there wouldn't be an Italian fighter in the summer of 1944.

After the armistice of September 8, 1943, the Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana (ANR) "was the air force of the Italian Social Republic during World War II, closely linked with the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) in northern Italy." 

The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeronautica_Nazionale_Repubblicana) from which I copied that quote goes on to say that, "Starting from June 1944, ANR started to receive Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6s for its fighter force." A long list of the various aircraft is included, which shows several varieties of the Ju 87 being flown by the ANR.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Bill Roe on September 14, 2012, 08:01:32 PM
Bruce -
To the best of my knowledge most Stukas were grounded by end of 1943 or 1944.  I know that the Germans moved most operational Stukas (after grounding) to the Russian front (1944) where they were successful in blowing up a few tanks.  I'm not certain that there were any around to do the shoot-down at that time.  Anyway, I'm tired - gonna hit the sack.  Check my history of the airplane at another time.

The reason I know a little about the airplane - I like the name "Stuka".  It's mean, nasty.  I also have admired Rudel's accomplishments in an obsolete airplane for that time.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Bruce Thomas on September 14, 2012, 09:10:32 PM
According to information on an Internet webpage (http://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/nsgr2.html), on June 1, 1944, 2./NSGr 2 (2nd squadron of Nachtschlachtgruppe 2) was transferred from the Eastern front (Budslaw, north of Minsk) to Northern Italy where it operated out of Turin-Caselle.  By then, all squadrons of the 2nd Night Attack Group had made the transition to the JU 87.

Later in the summer, that squadron became 3./NSGr 9, a group that had been operating Stukas in the area around Bologna (only 100 miles north of Bolsena) since at least April 1944 (according to an excerpt (http://stonebooks.com/archives/020120.shtml) from Ghost Bombers: The Moonlight War of NSG 9: Luftwaffe Night Attack Operations from Anzio to the Alps, by Nick Beale, published in the UK in 2001.

So, there were a few Stukas in Northern Italy at that time. 
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Chris Johnson on September 15, 2012, 09:53:28 AM
OK its not good to post without a source .....

Oops!  Chris - were you referring to your post or mine above re Rudel being an ace?  I think I screwed up.  If so, my apologies.  Rather than remove the posts, I'll leave them as others may find Rudel's stats interesting.  I'm glad I never came up against him - even in his half-way fighter Stuka.  And I wish he had been on our side.  Gotta admire the guy.

Bill,

no problem, i've got broad shoulders  ;D

So yes the Stuka looks like it has been used as an improvised fighter.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Monte Chalmers on September 15, 2012, 04:59:32 PM
After the armistice of September 8, 1943, the Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana (ANR) "was the air force of the Italian Social Republic during World War II, closely linked with the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) in northern Italy." 
Thanks for a bit of history I didn’t know.  I never heard of another Italian air force.  The news reports that we got  at the time were that the Italians put up little resistance and quit.  But I was young  - just must have missed it.  I did know about Hans Rudel.  I read his book , Stuka Pilot cover-to-cover  when I was in high school - fascinating reading.  I was wrong about the Italian air force, but I believe correct that Rudel has never been and never will be equaled. 
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on September 15, 2012, 05:17:34 PM
So yes the Stuka looks like it has been used as an improvised fighter and, After the armistice of September 8, 1943, the Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana (ANR) "was the air force of the Italian Social Republic during World War II, closely linked with the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) in northern Italy." 

Someone in the Axis forces must have recorded this shootdown, if it was in fact 2 stukas and an Italian fighter that took down a B-17.
Another line of enquiry, German Luftwaffe and Italian Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana records of enemy losses (us)during 1944.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 18, 2012, 04:06:05 PM
Mario sent two stills from a recent dive.  He's looking for help in figuring out what they might be.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Alan Harris on September 18, 2012, 05:23:39 PM
[** Collective sigh of relief that we at last have some underwater photos that no one will claim show lumps of coral ** ]   :)
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Bob Lanz on September 18, 2012, 05:32:31 PM
Marty, the bottom picture appears to be some sort of heat exchanger, possibly hydraulic or for cabin heat.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Ricker H Jones on September 19, 2012, 09:59:59 AM
Here is a design concept for late model B-17F's that shows wing ductwork and heat exchangers (http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA801373) in the exhibits toward the end of the article.  This may be of general help.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 19, 2012, 10:14:54 AM
Thanks Ricker. This may be a big help!
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 19, 2012, 10:16:11 AM
Here is a design concept for late model B-17F's that shows wing ductwork and heat exchangers (http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA801373) in the exhibits toward the end of the article.  This may be of general help.

The very last page says, "Sources of heated air were three exhaust-gas-to-air heat exchangers; one was located in each of two outboard nacelles and the third in the inboard nacelle."

Icing research: (http://history.nasa.gov/SP-3300/ch1.htm) "The deicing concept involved circulation of hot exhaust gas from the engines through the wings, and it proved to be effective. The first research publication of the Ames Aeronautical Laboratory (ref. 2) covered this work. This system was further developed to use inducted free-stream air warmed by an exhaust heat exchanger; it was then applied to the B-17 and B-24 heavy bombers (figs. 4 and 5) for wing and empennage deicing. Flight tests were carried out during the winter of 1943 at the Army Air Force Icing Research Base in Minneapolis. Results published in reference 3 for the B-17 showed that the system worked; similar performance was achieved for the B-24. With that success, the system was used on production versions of the Navy's PBY Catalina."


Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Ricker H Jones on September 19, 2012, 10:51:03 AM
Here is another document  (http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADB805325)with many more pictures.  Some of the drawings look similar to the photo, (but the scale in the photo, of course, is not known.) 
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 19, 2012, 11:06:17 AM
Here is another document  (http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADB805325)with many more pictures.  Some of the drawings look similar to the photo, (but the scale in the photo, of course, is not known.)

At a quick glance, this seemed to bear a little resemblance to one of the photos.

Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 23, 2012, 01:38:55 PM
Could the object shown in picture 2 below, from Bolsena Lake, be a portion of the B-17's tail gunner position shown in picture 1 below?
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 23, 2012, 02:25:57 PM
A couple of members sent me this link to photos of the restoration of the Memphis Belle (http://daytonipms.com/Walks/B-17F_Memphis_Belle/index.htm).
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on October 18, 2012, 05:22:13 PM
Woody
I have completed the list of 15th airforce losses June 1944. A/c numbers, MACR numbers/reports, nose art names, MIA crew lists. We're gonna need plan B, C and D. Nothing obvious or even close to being possible.
 :'(
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on October 27, 2012, 06:38:05 AM
I expected at least one article to uncover unexploded ordnance in lake Bolsena but, not a fishing magazine ;)

this isn’t some euphemistic story about a woman at the World Carp Classic; we’re talking about an actual bombshell! Italy’s Lake Bolsena is a leviathan of a lake – officially Europe’s largest volcanic lake at 7 miles across, and the high winds across the waters annihilated the peg occupied by Carpworld’s Lee Jackson and Ian Chillcott. Not only that, the WCC officials were forced to draw out the cards and disqualify a French pairing for going out in the boat together and leaving the rods unattended, and then one was caught without a life jacket on. Then after the competition, which saw plenty of pristine Lake Bolsena carp reach the banks, a World War II bomb was found, which the authorities are now dealing with. This comes not long after a diving school found pieces of a B17 Flying Fortress plane, which was shot down by German fighters in June of 1944. Not your ordinary snag, I’m sure you’ll agree. However, this didn’t stop Hungary’s Peter Micula and Norbert Pongracz of Team Nash taking top spot in the competition, followed by JRC’s Andrea Campanini and Filippo Mongrandi of Italy in second, and Yohan Lidon and Pete Wilson in third, fishing for England’s Big Fish Richworth team. Sadly the Carpworld team struggled, and didn’t manage to land a single fish over the 5-day competition, and were one of three teams to blank in challenging conditions. Frank Warwick and Jason Cann fared a little better, landing three fish of 19lb 3oz, 9lb 8oz, and 9lb 5oz, to take 52nd place overall.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on October 27, 2012, 05:43:45 PM
Well, the Italians had at least 100 Stukas...

* The Stuka was provided to most of Germany's allies. The Italians received 50 ex-Luftwaffe Ju-87B-2 and Ju-87B-2/Trop machines in the summer of 1940, with Italian Stukas seeing service in North Africa. They were quickly followed by a batch of Ju-87R-2 machines. Later, the Italians received 46 Ju-87D-2 and Ju-87D-3s, plus a few more Ju-87R-2s. The Allies honestly thought the Italians built the Stuka under license and so assigned a designation of "Breda 201 Picchiatelli" to Italian Stukas, but the Stuka was never produced by anybody but Junkers and Weser.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 01, 2012, 11:07:39 AM
Mario is asking for some help from folks who know their way around a Sperry Ball turret and or the Browning machine guns in it.

The first photo below shows the inside of the turret.  The second shows the LEFT machine gun data plate with a serial number of 155531.  It seems that this serial number is not sufficient to identify the airframe because records are incomplete.

They haven't been able to dive for a while.  Mario is wondering whether the serial number for the RIGHT machine gun will be on a plate that faces the inside of the turret--if so, they will have to do some chipping away of overgrowth to get at it; if not, there is no point in doing any chipping.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 27, 2012, 04:52:14 PM
From Mario:

Here are some pictures showing hand-painted letters on the Sperry Turret, on the right and left sides, just above the outlet hole of the Browning machine guns  barrels.

Because the turret is upside down, we have the letters  I L E  in the upper left and the letters  I S ( or maybe  O I S ) in the upper right.

The other letters are still covered by mud. Perhaps some veteran airmen might remember a B-17 at the Air Fields of LUCERA, CELONE or AMENDOLA (South Italy) with these letters on the Sperry Turret.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Rolland Swank on January 04, 2013, 07:27:00 AM
On 15 January 1944,   B-17F 41-24364 from the 2nd BG went down in the vicinity of Lake Bolsena,  (MACR 1814). In the MACR there is reference to Bolsena.    Unfortunately, as was apparently standard in the 2nd  Bomb Group, while they did record the engine serial numbers they did not record the serial numbers of guns in the MACRs. All the crew were either captured or evaded.  I have reason to believe the plane went into the lake.   I suspect this the "January" 1944 plane that is referenced earlier in this thread.

The ball turret gunner on the plane was Ralph Whitfield Truesdale.    In 1947 Ralph divorced his wife,  Lois Eileen Truesdale.   Note the difference in spelling on "Eileen" .  I suspect the "E"  is there on the turret, just covered up.
From the gunner's perspective, the names would be Lois - Eileen from left to right.   

You can read about the crew in the book "The Second Was First"  here starting on page 121.
http://www.2ndbombgroup.org/TheSecondWasFirst.pdf
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Francesco Battelli on January 04, 2013, 10:58:57 AM
Hi my name is Francesco, i am a frend of Massimilano.
 I've found one article talking about our plane 42-24364 in Italian language by Claudio Biscarini (well known by Mario I guess), at the following link:
http://www.dellastoriadempoli.it/?p=9117
It is very promising, it gives many details.
I hope that it cold be useful for the research.
Bye,
Francesco
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Francesco Battelli on January 04, 2013, 11:25:47 AM
Hi again.
More details about Sg.t Ralph W. Truesdale, B17 sperry gunner.
It seems that he was coming from Pinellas County in Florida, see the link:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article498534.ece
Bye,
Francesco
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: C.W. Herndon on January 04, 2013, 02:14:28 PM
Hi my name is Francesco, i am a frend of Massimilano.
 I've found one article talking about our plane 42-24364 in Italian language by Claudio Biscarini (well known by Mario I guess), at the following link:
http://www.dellastoriadempoli.it/?p=9117
It is very promising, it gives many details.
I hope that it cold be useful for the research.
Bye,
Francesco

Here is a link to the microsofttranslator translation of the article into English. (http://www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dellastoriadempoli.it%2F%3Fp%3D9117)
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on February 02, 2013, 11:43:49 AM
I've fallen behind on Mario's updates.

Some new pix confirming that "Eileen Lois" is painted on the turret.

Mario and the gang would love to learn more about the flight and the crew, if anyone has any leads.  He says, "I would love to find at least one photo of the crew in the vicinity of the plane."
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on May 24, 2013, 08:59:02 PM
Looks like the guys have recovered more wreckage. Would be nice to see some photos of the B-17 in the air though.

http://www.ontuscia.it/cronaca/vigili-del-fuoco-recuperata-torretta-con-mitragliatrici-dai-fondali-del-lago-di-bolsena-foto-90702 (http://www.ontuscia.it/cronaca/vigili-del-fuoco-recuperata-torretta-con-mitragliatrici-dai-fondali-del-lago-di-bolsena-foto-90702)

B-17F    41-24364
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on May 24, 2013, 09:18:25 PM
Even stranger. The USAAF Serial number 41-24364 B17-F was once a Royal Air Force B-17 serial number FA 679? to be confirmed by photographic evidence though...

"Air Ministry Serials Applied to USAAF B-17Fs (pages 30 to 32 and 151)
Britain ordered 300 B-17s, ‘nominally B-17Es’, in June 1941 under Defense Aid contract DA-16. They were allocated Air Ministry serials FA675 to FA823 (149 serials) and FH467 to FH617 (151 serials) but in the end none of these serials were applied to RAF-bound B-17Es. At least some of the 20 serials from the beginning of the first series, FA675 to FA694, are known to have been applied to early B-17Fs subsequently operated by the USAAF while the 19 B-17Fs delivered to Britain were allocated the next serials, FA695 to FA713. The rest of the FA serials, FA714 to FA823, and all the FH serials allocated to B-17s were never used.
No records for the application of these Air Ministry serials appear to have survived and there is no indication on their Individual Aircraft Record Cards, as there is for B-17Es assigned to Britain, that these B-17Fs were ever formerly intended for Britain.
One possible explanation for the application of the Air Ministry serials is that Boeing and Air Ministry personnel at Seattle initially understood that B-17Fs would follow the 45 B-17Es delivered to Britain after production of the latter ended. Boeing then applied the first available FA serials to up to 20 early B-17Fs, leaving FL465 to FL502 from the FL449 to FL502 allocation previously applied to B-17Es unused.
More photographs of the 20 B-17Fs have recently come to hand and an analysis of available images strongly suggests that all 20 Air Ministry serials FA675 to FA694 were applied in sequence with a contiguous block of USAAF serials as follows. Interestingly, the 19 Air Ministry serial numbers applied to smaller blocks of B-17Fs that were delivered to Britain ran in sequence with their respective USAAF serials.
USAAF Serials
41-24360 – 41-24379 Air Ministry Serials FA675 – FA694 (20)
Notes Confirmed match-up
41-24360 – 41-24362 FA675 – FA677 (3)
Matchups unconfirmed
41-24363 FA678 Photographic confirmation
41-24364 – 41-24367 FA679 – FA682 (4) Matchups unconfirmed
41-24368 FA683 Photographic confirmation
41-24369 FA684 Photographic confirmation
41-24370 FA685 Photograph indicates this aircraft had an over-painted Air Ministry serial
41-24371 – 41-24375 FA686 – FA690 (5) Matchups unconfirmed
41-24376 FA691 Photographic confirmation
41-24377 – 41-24379 FA692 – FA694 (3) Matchups unconfirmed


Full article....

http://mmpbooks.biz/Amendments%20-%2012.03.09.pdf (http://mmpbooks.biz/Amendments%20-%2012.03.09.pdf)


Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on May 28, 2013, 07:55:43 AM
From Mario:

After a long time I'm back to give you news. This is due to the complex recovery operation that I had to organize.

This is the result of  the great help and encouragement that you have given me.

Without it we would never have been able to write this page of history.

Thanks to you and to all the friends of your Forum.

A presto.

 Mario
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 14, 2013, 06:11:58 AM
Good news from Mario received in e-mail:

Finally, and thanks to your great help, the Sperry Ball Turret is now in the Museum of Bolsena. We have created a special section dedicated to this historical story. I was able to reconstruct the life of every single crewman after they bailed out of the plane over Italy and of those people who saved their lives by hiding from the Germans.

The new section of the museum will open on Saturday, January 11, 2014, at 11:00 am. The event will be attended by sons and families of some of the crewmen and also the families of the Italians who helped them. The American Embassy in Rome and the Military Attache will have representatives at the event.

Comment by MXM: It would be splendid if some member of the Forum could show up at the ceremony and take a bow on behalf of all who helped Mario with this research.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Monty Fowler on December 14, 2013, 08:09:42 AM
Never underestimate the power of the Forum! I learned that one a long time ago.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Chris Johnson on December 14, 2013, 10:47:33 AM
Its good to see that the TIGHAR community, members and non members have had an input into a recovery as such (even if it was mostly about IDing the plane and its history)  Cudos to the Italians for their perseverance.

Maybe this is an avenue TIGHAR should be perusing, International cooperation in identifying and recording lost planes through research by forum members.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on January 18, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
From Mario about the opening of the exhibit:

It was a beautiful day, very excited audience for the presence of the families of the crewmen of the B-17. I invited the three daughters of Lt. JosephTownsend the co-pilot and the son of Tail Gunner Horace Mahabirsingh. In all 14 people were just thrilled to get to know also the places where their fathers bailed out and the farmhouses where they were hidden by Italian families. The presence of U.S. Military Attache of the U.S. Embassy has made the event very interesting. The Sperry Ball Turret is beautifully displayed.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on January 18, 2014, 11:04:41 AM
A good result for all those involved Mario, Marty, forum etc...
Great photos!
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: JNev on January 20, 2014, 09:01:54 AM
Sweet outcome - glad to see this come to fruit.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on February 02, 2014, 05:03:29 AM
From Mario--seeking help to find information about three Prisoners of War:

Ciao Marty, it is very nice to have achieved something so important. Now, finally, we have a known history but, for me, it is not enough to tell the whole story. There are things in my research that do not yet have an answer--the stories of the three POWs : I have interviewed several witnesses close to where they landed, but nobody saw them nor do they know how and where they were captured.

I have not been able to find any trace of what happened to the three crewmen.
I have also talked with the relatives of the three airmen. I found a lot of material on their stay in the German prison camps, but their families do not know the details of how they were captured.
It would be interesting to know what happened when they touched the ground. I am convinced that in some military archives there must be a report from when they returned home.

Can we try to do something?
I am attaching a picture of a display in the museum that recounts a part of their history.
 
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Bruce Thomas on February 14, 2014, 12:05:52 PM
Just spotted on Discovery News: Name on WWII Bomber Reveals Story of Love and War (http://news.discovery.com/history/us-history/name-on-ww2-bomber-reveals-story-of-love-and-war-140214.htm)
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 14, 2014, 12:33:09 PM
And the TIGHAR forum gets a credit! Bonus!!!

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Ric Gillespie on February 15, 2014, 08:20:33 AM
DiscoveryNews.com (http://news.discovery.com/history/us-history/name-on-ww2-bomber-reveals-story-of-love-and-war-140214.htm) has written up the story and TIGHAR gets a good mention. 
The museum exhibit is a fine example of true aviation historic preservation.  The turret is conserved and restored (returned to a known previous appearance with minimal introduction of new material).  It is a genuine piece of history, not a stand-in. And it honors the people more than the technology - you made that possible.  Everyone who had a hand in this should be proud. 
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on October 12, 2016, 11:45:49 AM
News from Mario Di Sorte:

I'm really happy that a relative of  Lt. Pedersen is interested in his story. At the beginning of my researches I was able to find his nephew, but unfortunately he is totally uninterested.

A few days ago the English version of my book was published.  In Beyond the Lake. The last mission of a B-17: intertwined stories of downed American airmen in Italy during WWII, (http://www.ibs.it/code/9788875422691/di-sorte-mario/beyond-the-lake.html) I describe the historical period, the life of American airmen in Italy during the war, and of course tell the story of the fatal flight.  I also write about the solidarity of those poor farmers who risked their lives to save the American crewmen.

For the moment I'm waiting for some presentation of the book  in  USA.  Probably they will take place in New York at an air museum and  then at the Italian Cultural Institute in Washington. But still I do not know the exact dates.

Grazie for everything.

Mario Di Sorte
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on October 12, 2016, 07:39:30 PM
Please note that I have inserted Mario Di Sorte's full name as well as a link to the English version of the book in the preceding post.
Title: Re: Search and recovery: B-17 crashed into Bolsena Lake, June 1944
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on October 27, 2016, 12:29:55 PM
Mario sent me a copy of his book.


It is impressive--383 pages, nicely bound, with lots of pictures.


I haven't started reading it yet.  I wanted to get a scan while the cover was still in mint condition.