TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: richie conroy on June 24, 2012, 05:23:44 PM
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Marty
have area's i have arrows pointing to been searched ?
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Talking with Art Carty about what areas have and have not been searched by TIGHAR, I've become persuaded that it would be worthwhile to look for the remains of "Camp Zero."
I'm with Art! If there's an undiscovered sextant anywhere on Niku, I'm persuaded it would be at Camp Zero (just up the hill from Marty's Notch (http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/f/fd/Island.jpg)?), lying in coral rubble covered by scaevola and etched with Naval Observatory number 1542. What a find that would be for Megan Lickliter-Mundon during Niku VII! (Well, I can fantasize with everyone else (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Tqe0JGpEBDE/T0UosEYhWrI/AAAAAAAAAe0/2Cio5qKeUmk/s1600/peanuts-clouds426x289.jpg), can't I?)
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have areas i have arrows pointing to been searched ?
I honestly don't know, Richie.
I haven't got a comprehensive map of where TIGHAR has been on the island. This is something for a Geographic Information System (GIS) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_information_system) expert to produce, working with data that is not available in GIS format on the website. They would have to take the notes from every expedition and make entries in a database about the known paths TIGHAR researchers have taken on and around the island. It would not be a trivial task, and the results might not be hugely useful for TIGHAR's work.
What I heard about the potential location for "Camp Zero" (the first survival camp close to where the plane might have landed on the reef) is that TIGHAR has not yet done a thorough search in that vicinity. It also seems not to have been an area where the colonists did any development.
As Bruce said, if the aircraft landed on the reef somewhere near where the Bevington Object was located, and if AE and FN made a camp ashore near the landing site, then there may be some large metallic objects to be found at their first campsite.
When this topic came up previously, I argued that both TIGHAR and the colonists had been all over that territory, and that the odds of finding remains of the campsite were therefore low. I seem to have been mistaken about the facts of the matter, such as they are.
So far as I know, TIGHAR has not published the information that Jeff Glickman shared at the Symposium about the location of the Bevington Object. That might provide a reasonable starting point for searches nearby.
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I'm with Art! If there's an undiscovered sextant anywhere on Niku, I'm persuaded it would be at Camp Zero (just up the hill from Marty's Notch (http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/f/fd/Island.jpg)?)
Although I'm flattered to have a feature named after me, we probably should use something more meaningful for the sake of folks who were not at that session of the Symposium. ::)
I suggest we speak of it as "the Northwestern Notch." People with a better command of shoreline cartography might have an even more accurate name for it. It's the big indentation in the shore that you come to as you walk north from the Norwich City wreck.
(http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/e/e5/Northwestern_Notch.png)
Notice the difference in vegetation, which suggests to me that this is an area that gets overwashed fairly regularly. I don't know what it looked like in 1937, nor can I guess whether the storm surges that seem to have hit there would tend to bury or remove materials in the overwash zone.
..., lying in coral rubble covered by scaevola and etched with Naval Observatory number 1542. What a find that would be for Megan Lickliter-Mundon during Niku VII!
I don't know whether Megan will be aboard for Niku VII (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7.html), which departs about nine days from today (2 July). Even if she is on this team, I doubt she'll get up around the Notch. ;)
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Martin,
That is a really nice photo, do you have more like it around the Northern end of the island?
Thanks.
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Marty---seems like some of us talked about this in DC. Not to disagree with Tom King, Lorrie Shorrer, and Ric, but it seems to me that the 7 site is a long way from the site landing site. Camp Zero seems like a better deal to me.
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That is a really nice photo, do you have more like it around the Northern end of the island?
It's a snip from a 412 MB JPG recently created (16 June 2012) by the GeoEye Foundation (http://www.geoeyefoundation.org) using their GeoEye-1 Satellite. They are supporting Niku VII (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7.html). The TIF file is 732 MB and has something like half-meter resolution (?)--1 pixel = 0.5 m (?). This is a screen capture from the JPG. I don't know how much information is lost by producing images this way:
(http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/0/00/Northwestern_tip_of_Niku.png)
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what if Electra was camp zero
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"...what if Electra was camp zero..."
then we dont know where "camp zero" was, unless we make assumptions of where the Electra was at the time. Maybe it was on the reef. Maybe it was on the water, somewhere nearer Howland. If they were using the Electra as "camp Zero", assuming it was on the Niku reef north of the Norwich City, then we can make some presumptions. Am I right to make these assumptions?
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what if Electra was camp zero
People who have spent time in an Electra sitting in the sunshine reported that it was unpleasantly hot.
The food and water in the Electra were in limited supply.
If they stayed in the Electra, then they disappeared with the aircraft.
If they got off the Electra, then some place on the island was their first camp, which is what we mean by "Camp Zero." The hope that there might be a trove of metal artifacts there is, admittedly, wishful thinking; but it is a thought that might be tested by surveying that part of the island.
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Reading the account of Niku IIIIP (http://tighar.org/wiki/Niku_IIIIP_%281999%29) it seems to me that area (the coastal section of Nutiran) was searched back in 1999. One thing does occur to me that, as is noted in the entry http://tighar.org/wiki/Nutiran (http://tighar.org/wiki/Nutiran) -
"Nutiran was the site of John Arundel's failed coconut planting project in the 1890s, which left ruins of structures with corrugated iron roofs noted by both survivors of the Norwich City wreck in the late 1920s and early survey teams about ten years later.",
if corrugated iron roof material was still available it would make an excellent roof for a rough camp. I must admit to being puzzled why anyone marooned on the island would leave the area of the Norwich City which is a land mark and move to the other end of the island, unless proximity of a dead body which couldn't be protected from the depredations of the coconut crabs became untenable.
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Here is a description of the work in 1999.
<<<<<<<
Nikumaroro Reconnaissance
On Nikumaroro, work was hampered by heavy rain, but the following work was accomplished (See Fig. N-41):
Intensive search of ___(RIC, HOW MANY?) twenty-meter squares plotted over the area identified by airphotos as including the site of the large structure and the possible wreckage;
Search of the dense mao along the shore north of the Norwich City, employing thrity- to forty-meter long transects cut at twenty-five meter intervals;
Excavation of a grave found on the Nutiran shore near the Norwich City;
Visual inspection of the Taraia shoreline;
Visual inspection of the Nutiran reef flat in and well beyond the area identified by Emily Sikuli as the site where she had been shown wreckage;
Visual inspection of Kanawa Point, including evaluation by Dr. Burns; and
Similar inspection of Aukaraime South.
Unfortunately, time did not allow a visit to the third candidate "bones site" on the southeast windward shore.
>>>>>>
There were 12 team members. They left from Fiji which is a 5 day transit to and from, and spent 10 days ashore. Given all the things they were trying to accomplish, my impression is that the "search" of the Nutiran shore was pretty high level with limited manpower and limited time. The expedition report says they covered about 700 meters north of the NC, so that would take them pretty much to the tip of the island.
Cutting 40 meter transects through Scaevola every 25 meters leaves a lot of territory un-searched. It is hard to see beyond 6 meters in dense scaevola. Camp Zero could have easily been there and not found.
Richie - I'm pretty sure that TIGHAR has visited the sites you indicate, but I don't know to what degree they have been searched in the sense of using metal detectors etc. They are natural clearings, and you can still see them on the new sat photo Marty posted.
Malcolm - The Nutiran shore is one of the driest and hottest areas for whatever reason, probably because it is sheltered by the prevailing winds. Once the Colorado planes few on, the realization that they weren't coming back might have reduced the value of hanging out near the NC At some point it would be natural to begin to explore your new home, such as it is, driven by the need for water and sustenance.
The other end of the island is where there is a breeze, the turtles come ashore to nest, there is buka forest, and there are plenty of birds. In relative terms, it is a more comfortable place to be.
And, there is the dead body issue. In my mind the first one to go gets at least partially covered up with coral rocks, not fully buried - it would be not only difficult without the right tools, but dangerous to dig a true grave given the water loss required - so the idea of the first body being unpleasant to hang out near is a good one in my mind. The last one to die in our AE scenario, ends up on the surface ala the castaway.
Again, we're speculating here, but I think we all have some experience with human nature upon which to base some speculation.
Andrew
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While we are speculating about a possible camp zero let's apply some logic to it.
Ok, so assuming they reached Gardner Island and managed to put the plane down on the reef flat what would be the likeliest thing they did first?
Try to communicate with SAR!!!!!!
Explore, first to shipwreck, it's an obvious landmark.
Explore, the whole island? Not yet.
Explore, the local area where we are so we can continue transmissions as well and, stay near obvious landmark.
If you take a look at the images I have placed 2 red circles where the exploration of the local area ended. From these 2 circles you are able to see the island layout. The circle by the lagoon passage means you have found the lagoon entrance and, can proceed no further in that direction but, you can see the other end of the island across the lagoon. The other circle allows you to see the whole length of the island along the shoreline, again, to the other end of the island.
Don't want to stray too far away from the plane, transmissions. Don't want to stray too far away from shipwreck, obvious landmark
For these 2 reasons it would make sense to set up a campsite inland from the Electra/shipwreck first. For whatever reasons make a site that is more suitable for a long stay later, somewhere more hospitable.
Why would you want a long stay campsite?
Plane washed away?
Missed the SAR planes?
Who knows...
It's just a theory with logic applied that I would have used but, that's me applying the training I endured to a theory about AE and FN.
(http://)
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Jeff
you say The circle by the lagoon passage means you have found the lagoon entrance and, can proceed no further in that direction but, you can see the other end of the island across the lagoon
but the lagoon passage is passable at low tide.
However I've often thought that AE/FN may not have attempted to cross it whilst the plane was still on the reef as they may have seen the passage as un fordable.
Fred "those sharks sure look mean"
That's right Chris, I had wondered if any attempt would be made to ford the passage but as you say the tide would make it possible and, of course the tide would also make it impossible to cross when the tide came in. Of course you are now on the other side of the lagoon and it's a fair old yomp to get back around the whole island to where you started in the first place. Better to watch the tides for a day or two to see when it is safe to get across and back without having to make the few mile yomps around the whole island. You are probaby right about the sharks and the lagoon, it would make a perfect nursery for young sharks and, be a good source for feeding on fish as well especially when the tide isolates it.
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Thinking about camp Zero and detectable items, it makes sense that if AE/FN had the wits to empty the plane of items while they waited that there may be a sizable cache of items that they would have left behind as they searched for another camp site.
A tool kit may look useful when you have a plane but less so (at first) when its gone over the edge.
Could just be a wrench or two with the sextant in the vola ;)
That's a good point Chris. I am not sure if it has been debated or mentioned before but...
If the plane was washed away did it come as a total surprise/shock to them or, were there warning signs that it was likely to happen e.g. tides/waves moving the plane about. If it was the latter they would have had time to remove items from the plane, if it was the former, oh dear!
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Here's a couple of videos
The first one is a small light aircraft 'landing' on the surf line. Notice how it behaves in the surf. The crowd managed to pull it up onto the beach, good work!!
The second one is a float plane landing onto water but, the pilot hasn't retracted the wheels, the wheels protruding were enough to flip the plane onto its back. Note: the Electra wheels were not fully retractable and protruded beneath the engines nacelles. So for a ditch and sink they would have to very very careful in the Electra.
IMHO
http://youtu.be/EWyUSdQ2ujY (http://youtu.be/EWyUSdQ2ujY)
http://youtu.be/pucmWr55cgw (http://youtu.be/pucmWr55cgw)
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Good point about the overwash area on the coastline where the NC shipwreck is Jeff. We know from all our high tech gizmos that this area is subject to overwash and, you can see clearly from the sat' images that this is the case. Of course AE and FN wouldn't have known that but, it would still be a logical place to set up your initial camp. Close to the plane and obvious landmark of NC shipweck.
IMHO
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Andrew makes a great point about moving towards the 7 site---one from having experience on Niku. So, if I think abou this, Camp Zero makes alot of sense, and AFTER the failed overflight rescue, moving to another part of the island does too. Andrew's statement about the breezes, the food sources, etc, does make sense. I did have a problem with AE possibly moving that distance from the time of the 'landing', to the overflight on July 9. But in the post-overflight timeline, certainly does become more probable.
The statement also on the 'dead body' brings up some interesting things. Perhaps there is a grave on the northwest side of the island that is yet to be discovered, especially with the scaevola. As has been reported before, you might be within feet of something, and not see it.
IMHO---once TIGHAR finds wreckage of the electra on the reef, and 'proves' it was there, which also putsAE & FN there, then a more detailed archaeological paln can be made, not only for the 7 sie, but possibly near camp zero also.
tom
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Another point of logic re: camp zero (if it existed)
Think about it, if you removed anything from the Electra i.e. tools/food/water/navigational aids/ etc... wouldn't it be logical to put the gear salvaged in a camp close to where you took said items from. Look at the logistical difficulties in humping all that gear 1.5 miles up the coast away from the plane and the obvious landmark of the NC shipwreck.
Maybe when there is little chance of rescue then you could find suitable site and then move everything there, if you felt up to it by then.
IMHO
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Good point jeff----but by then, was AE alone?
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Good point jeff----but by then, was AE alone?
Could very well have been Tom. Which leaves poor old FN to be buried in an area that is over-washed by the sea sometimes. Not such a nice resting place.
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I think that is a fair puzzle, for sure.
The reason you mention could become compelling, I suppose - I've wondered about that. And I've wondered about other possibilities - eventual need to try to find water, a cooler spot with some shade and breeze perhaps - don't know, just ideas.
Yes Jeff - I mentioned in the first post that the accounts as late as the New Zealand expedition say that traces of the Arundel settlement were still extant. To me the corrugated iron if it was still there would make a first rate temporary shelter. Also there is the puzzle of what if anything was carried ashore from the Electra. No traces of that have been found aside from some speculation about the origins of a couple of very small items found at the Seven Site.
Andrew has pointed out that the Nutiran area of the island is hot and dry which may well be a reason for a move. But with respect is an assumption of a motive rather than an demonstrated explanation, and I wonder if I was on the island in those circumstances that is conjectured for Earhart and Noonan that I would be willing to leave a place where some material existed which would make a basically habitable camp for one in which there was no shelter other than the trees and scrub.
Also, as I understand it, Nutiran is the main area for the later cultivation of the coconut plantation on which Nikumaroro was to base its economic existence. This would have involved land clearing and other work yet we seem to be rather bereft of any reports of pre-settlement activity in that area, unlike the reports we have concerning the two areas on either side of the lagoon on the southern section of the atoll. Could this indicate that in the clearance and preparation for planting any signs of more recent occupation were confused with the Arundel site and simply ignored.
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I assume by camp Zero it is the first place they set up a camp and not just the first place they slept and maybe brought a few items. That may be perpendicular to the plane and in the shade.
If it is the first place they actually made a camp, then I think Camp Zero could be where they could hopefuly see the Itasca coming from the north and also see the planewreck, and also be in the shade. So maybe triangulate those three points. Basically the area where you round the tip enough to see the north, and still see the plane and also be in the shade.
2nd choice would be the Norwich City to get height to see and signal from. A Coast Guardsmen in the 40's did board it, climb up it and described what he thought was an intact bridge he wanted to explore later. Though it was not the bridge(it was gone) I think he saw some structure intact. Maybe it was camp zero. The NC had fish in the hold (see Bevington), and possibly decking forward of the collision bulkhead to divert rain water and provide shade. The crews rooms were in the area forward of the collision bulkhead and could have survived the fire, beds and all.
I understand they could not taxi to the shore but maybe they tried to taxi closer to the NC. If they were able, it could have been a shorter distance to travel back and forth on a slippery reef.
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Good point Malcolm, and Ive wondered about that for some time. All speculation, but moving a base camp would take some effort, especially to the 7 site, and the distance to travel, possibly alone.
Gee----seems to me that we are opening up a whole new area for our archaeological friends to explore.
Maybe those that have been there---Tom King, Lonnie, andrew, etc, could answer this: The overwash area---about how far inland do you think it goes, and the possibility that AE actually stayed there for a period of time? If i remember right, I think it was stated that this area hadnt been explored very much.
Thoughts?
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Another point of logic in favour of an initial site being in close proximity to plane and NC shipwreck. It would have been wise to take from the plane items that you might need, toolkit, axe, food, water, nav' equipment, clothing, useful kit etc...
kit an ex ships captain might select. I can't recall anything like that being found at the 7 site, a penknife in bits, a broken jar of freckle cream, a broken ladys compact?
Hardly survival items but still might give a hint of who was at the 7 site and, who wasn't. So where's the kit FN would have thought they needed from the plane?
Just a thought and, doesn't imply they actually made it to Gardner but, we will know soon enough.
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Also ANYONE KNOW THE EXACT LOCATION OF THE ARUNDEL BUILDING???? sorry for shouting :)
No need to apologize - that question has also been bedeviling me. We do know that the settlement was abandoned because of potable water problems, but then so eventually was the settlement of the PISS settlers at Ritiati. The island is borderline inhabitable at the best of times. I am assuming that the Arundel settlement area was searched during Niku IIIIP in 1999, but I can understand that the subsequent clearing for the PISS plantation would have disturbed much of anything that remained.
One thing I note is that corrugated iron can survive in a usable form for many years. Recently I added an extra annex to one of my sheds to store some gardening stuff and used sheets of ungalvanized corrugated iron that was 70 years old, and had always been stored outside (I never throw out useful stuff ;D ) It was a bit rusty but otherwise serviceable and a quick brush down with a wire brush and a quick coat of paint and it was fine. I note on this site pics of the ruined structure at the PISS village site where there is corrugated iron that would be about 30 years old or more. The Arundel material would only have been around 45 years old in 1937 so I would conjecture that if Earhart or Noonan had landed on the island and were looking for shelter then that would be the place to head for. It would have at the least provided better shade than the trees.
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Malcolm
Out of curiosity, how big are your sheets of corrugated iron, and how much does one weigh? How easy was it to lift and install on your shed?
I'm trying to find out where the Arundel buildings were located. Unfortunately, when they were there in 1999, I don't think they had hand held GPSs like we did later on.
amck
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This debate reminds me of the aircrash in the Andes mountains in 1972. The survivors remained with the wreckage for shelter from the weather throughout their 2 month ordeal. However, when it became obvious no rescue was likely, 2 of them went in search of civilisation.
Initial camp <_________> no rescue likely <________> off you go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Air_Force_Flight_571#Radio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Air_Force_Flight_571#Radio)
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This debate reminds me of the aircrash in the Andes mountains in 1972. The survivors remained with the wreckage for shelter from the weather throughout their 2 month ordeal. However, when it became obvious no rescue was likely, 2 of them went in search of civilisation.
Initial camp <_________> no rescue likely <________> off you go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Air_Force_Flight_571#Radio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Air_Force_Flight_571#Radio)
is ths what the film Alive was based on ?
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sorry as i read down i seen paragraph on film Alive d'oh :)
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Malcolm
Out of curiosity, how big are your sheets of corrugated iron, and how much does one weigh? How easy was it to lift and install on your shed?
I'm trying to find out where the Arundel buildings were located. Unfortunately, when they were there in 1999, I don't think they had hand held GPSs like we did later on.
amck
Hello Andrew
They're about 6 feet long and about 2 feet wide. They're not heavy in the sense that an adult can easily lift them easily. If it was simply a matter of lifting one up and propping it on something like a tree trunk etc. to form a simply lean to shelter there would be no problems. Of course with my humble building effort I also made a light wooden frame and that required tools etc.
But as a temporary shelter, which I suspect is all any putative castaways would be thinking, then such a simple structure might suffice.
Malcolm
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I think Andrew's point here is, we are talking about AE, not ourselves. Was she capable physically to doing this, or was she a 'city girl" in a leather jacket? No offense to 'city girls', but I have the impression that AE probably wasnt a 'rough it' kind of girl. Camping, hiking, living off the land, like you might think someone from Kansas might be. I picture her as a socialite, kind alike Ginger Grant on Gilligans Island, and not Mary Ann.
In that respect---was she able to think about what needed to be done, and had she shown those capabilities in the past so we would KNOW she could do them? Just saying--
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We've seen the rusted remains of corrugated iron in several places on Niku. The remnants of what we've found would seem to be bigger than 2x6, more like 4x6, and we've speculated how they got around the island given the bulky and heavy configuration, and yes, whether AE or FN might have moved them. I think we researched this and came up with the weight of a 4x6 sheet of late 19th century corrugated iron coming in at something like 110 lbs, so carrying them about by oneself didn't seem very likely. I'll have to go back and find the info.
How much does one of your 2x6 sheets of corrugated iron actually weigh?
Andrew
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How much does one of your 2x6 sheets of corrugated iron actually weigh?
Andrew
I suspect it differs in size from place to place and country to country or what it is used for. My pieces are roofing type corrugated iron, but I suspect for convenience that if it was used for walling then it would come in larger widths and gauges. As to weight I'm afraid I have never weighed it but I could easily pick it up. I'm not especially muscular or tall, but it wasn't difficult - in fact I could hold a sheet with one hand by its edge if I balanced it in the middle. The only difficulty I had was that if the wind got up its tended to become difficult to handle. Another point with 19th century corrugated iron was that it was made to a width and length that could easily fit on the horse drawn wagons of the period - have a look at pictures from the mining camps of the period and you will see what I mean, especially pictures of the buildings attached to mining operations.
For the purposes that I am thinking of someone who might use it for shelter it would be a matter of propping it up as a lean to against a tree trunk perhaps, and perhaps laying another sheet over it at the edge using the corrugations as a means to align the sheets. However without any tools it would be at best a rough shelter - one would I suspect have to weight the sheets with rocks or rubble at the bottoms and fond some means of tying them down to stop the wind from lifting them. But that would be better than nothing and would keep one out of the sun.
A rough shelter like this could easily be missed in the clearing of the Arundel area for planting coconuts. Which brings us back to the location of the Arundel camp - any luck on that? I am unconvinced, as you would be aware, that there is evidence at the Seven Site of anything other than sporadic transitory occupations over the span of the entire settlement of Nikumaroro, however I doubt if Earhart or Noonan if they were on Nikumaroro at all would have been willing or able to transport sheets of corrugated iron there.
But would there be a point to doing that? The Arundel area seems as good a point as anywhere for a camp if they were there and much closer to the natural landmark of the Norwich City wreck, and as regard to resources is there any real difference between there and the Seven Site. It seems to me, but I could be wrong, that the Arundel area doesn't seem to have been explored thoroughly even given the obvious disturbance that might have occurred during the PISS clearances making it a very difficult task. Another question is how open was it in 1937, had it completely reforested itself or were there still bare areas or areas of thin scrub, that might have made a better and easier camp location.
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I've wondered if there was a camp zero ? ever. They may have been too busted up from landing on a broken flat reef to get out of the plane and it and all was washed out to sea. The odd bits like sextant cases, floatsom bits o wing etc were all that was left after the big wave sucked em under to parlez with davey jones .........
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I've wondered if there was a camp zero ? ever. They may have been too busted up from landing on a broken flat reef to get out of the plane and it and all was washed out to sea. The odd bits like sextant cases, floatsom bits o wing etc were all that was left after the big wave sucked em under to parlez with davey jones .........
Well I'm the house sceptic as everyone is aware and you may have a point. I'm actually pursuing this line as much as to finding where the Arundel settlement was as arguing that it was the location of a putative Camp Zero. But in the spirit of fair play I must concede that given the observations of the Navy search airmen about recent occupation, then, other than whatever might have been discerned regarding the Norwich City survivors' camp, the Arundel site seems to fit the bill of settlement traces. If it did have usable materials then it could have made a reasonable camp site.
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The 7 site, although turning up some odd artifacts that had numerous candidates for their existence at the site, doesn't seem to be the logical location for a newly arrived out of gas plane crew. I can see it has its benefits, nice and cool, access to lagoon and sea, turtles, fish, birds, shade and so on. But if you are waiting to be rescued you would want to be in the vicinity of things that are easily spotted from the air, the NC wreck and your plane (while it was still a plane as opposed to a submarine).
The 7 site seems to be the place to be when all hope of rescue has gone and of course, a nice place to relax for the islanders, loran station crew and, whoever else fancied a nice relaxing BBQ. As Malcolm mentioned there are probably layers of occupation there.
Camp zero, if it existed, which would be likely under the circumstances, is the place to find artifacts that could only have come from AE, FN and Electra.
All IMHO of course
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All the camp 7 stuff discovered could have been floatsam from the now gone plane that washed down thru the lagoon to the site. Boots , boxes and bottles. There some half-caste put em on till the poisoned fish got him during a drunken rain dance.
Likewise all the plane pilot admitted to seeing were "markers" that someone was there , like maybe the water collection device on the east side? or did he really flyover Gardner at all? There was room for a pilot and an observer , but no doubt the observer was not there to save on weight and fuel .
But that is all gone now -- even the water device . So far there is no definative evidence and it would be very hard to find after 80 years of the habitation of the island by one or two people for a few months.
The water collection device was well within the capability of FN if he was well and had some time to make it. Probably only caught bird droppings on this desloate island though.
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Jeff
My take on the camp zero scenario being in the over wash area...
They wouldn't have known that and...
If they removed anything heavy from the plane it may still be there. Being heavy would have kept it from being washed away?
Tools?
Sextant?
Axe?
Radio?
Battery?
It's just a theory and of course, open to debate.
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Please realize that a 100 ton boiler from the Norwich ended up in the lagoon after one particular storm in the 2000's decade. You'd have to be big and very heavy to leave a mark ....
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I'll have to admit I didn't notice that George. Any images of it sat in the lagoon? Did it show up on the sonar sweeps of the lagoon?
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I'll have to admit I didn't notice that George. Any images of it sat in the lagoon? Did it show up on the sonar sweeps of the lagoon?
The boiler is pointed out in the helicopter video of Niku. As I recall, it's shown on the beach along the southern shore of the lagoon and west of Baureke Passage.
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Is this the boiler in question Bruce?
I can't find anything else about a boiler in the lagoon.
One good thing to note though is the direction that the heavy debris is moved after being overwashed, towards the lagoon/island not away from it. That's promising.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/32_SatPhoto/Nikusatphotopage2.html (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/32_SatPhoto/Nikusatphotopage2.html)
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in the black square is were i think the huts with galvanized roofs were according to this report
here is link to Norwich city report of T. Thomas
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Norwich_City/NorwichCity5.html
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Not a boiler, but a large steel tank from the NC got washed down the reef flat and through the channel ending up along the shore of the lagoon near Kanawa point. This thing floated in, it wasn't somehow carried across the island by over wash.
See photos below.
Andrew
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Not a boiler, but a large steel tank from the NC got washed down the reef flat and through the channel ending up along the shore of the lagoon near Kanawa point. This thing floated in, it wasn't somehow carried across the island by over wash.
See photos below.
Andrew
I stand corrected ... it's a tank, not a boiler, that's seen on the shore of the lagoon ... just after 19:00 in the Aerial Tour of Nikumaroro video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL9FGsvB3E8).
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Interesting find, Richie
Talking with a few of the Nikumaroro Veterans, the impression has been that the Arundel buildings were farther up the Nutiran shoreline. We found the remains of some old structures just a bit south of the NC wreck, and inland about 50 meters - see the screen shot. The assumption was that they could be the remains of the Arundel buildings based upon the building materials, but I don't think we've ever actually established that. Could have been colonial era buildings, we just don't know for sure.
This area is somewhat coincident with the NC survivors camp, and the NZ survey camp, so there is a lot of overlap it would seem.
That doesn't rule out Arundel buildings down on the N side of the lagoon passage as Richie indicates. I spent some time in that area and did not see anything that look like the remains of shacks, but we did see ruins further N.
Andrew
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also to note i have just been reading through the Eric Bevington journal wed 13th Oct 1937
he states they come across clean and dry whale bones on shore side, Could this have been a food source for Amelia and Fred ?
also to note in the thur 14th oct 1937 entry half way down there is mention of sign's of recent habitation ?
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Bevington_Diary.html
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in a interview with Lt. John O' Lambrecht. will find link
He stated in over flight he saw " sign's of recent habitation and markers in the area" i have marked out in red circle
i wonder if they could have crossed the lagoon entrance to Ritiati, and were unable due to rising tide get back to Norwich city wreck
The reason for heading that way is, if they worked out that pieces of wreckage off the Norwich city drifted that way they may have come across washed up items, i.e broken boxes of unopened wine or washed up tin's of food etc
just thinking allowed :)
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Interesting find, Richie
Talking with a few of the Nikumaroro Veterans, the impression has been that the Arundel buildings were farther up the Nutiran shoreline. We found the remains of some old structures just a bit south of the NC wreck, and inland about 50 meters - see the screen shot. The assumption was that they could be the remains of the Arundel buildings based upon the building materials, but I don't think we've ever actually established that. Could have been colonial era buildings, we just don't know for sure.
This area is somewhat coincident with the NC survivors camp, and the NZ survey camp, so there is a lot of overlap it would seem.
That doesn't rule out Arundel buildings down on the N side of the lagoon passage as Richie indicates. I spent some time in that area and did not see anything that look like the remains of shacks, but we did see ruins further N.
Andrew
Hi Andrew
Do u know the area of the small, lake, pond, pool, what ever it was
that is mentioned in Norwich City reports ?
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I think we need to re-define Camp Zero
At the start of this thread, Marty describes it this way:
"What I heard about the potential location for "Camp Zero" (the first survival camp close to where the plane might have landed on the reef) is that TIGHAR has not yet done a thorough search in that vicinity. It also seems not to have been an area where the colonists did any development."
Camp Zero in my mind is the first place AE and FN drag themselves ashore, along with whatever they felt was important enough to get ashore with them.
They want to stay as near to the Electra as possible since they are periodically heading out there to either gather up another load, or try to talk on the radio. With the body of post loss signals, this would mean they might have used Camp Zero for a few days, maybe three to five days. Keep in mind that the post loss signals are mostly at night, so we're not getting much sleep overnight, and with the heat during the day, daytime is a good time to lie low and rest up.
During this time, there is probably a little exploring done when not resting, just as the NC survivors tried to explore, but I think that we all agree that you wouldn't want to be too far away from the Electra knowing that there was likely a search on, and with the Electra being the thing that will be seen, psychologically you want to be nearby when the searchers arrive.
Then on Day 5/6, the Electra disappears, perhaps battered about a bit by the rising tide, then floated off the reef and into the deep. Your reason for hanging out at Camp Zero just disappeared, so its time to seek better accommodations.
Exploring down the beach turns up the Arundel buildings and / or the NC survivors cache, which you would make use of, so you set up Camp One. Water is now the big issue, maybe the NC cache has water, or maybe you've found the brackish source the NC survivors found, but enough to keep you from dying. You could be gathering water back there one morning when suddenly there are three airplanes overhead who pass on by, circle and zoom a bit over some place you are not, and then fly on just as you come running out of the trees waving your arms off.
Two days later you shake off your depression over being so close yet so far, and decide that its time to pull up your shorts and figure out how to live on this island as it appears you are going to be there for a while. That means doing some serious exploring to see what assets you've got to work with. So you load up with a few essentials such as some of that yummy brackish water you've been boiling, carefully funneled into a nice Benedictine bottle, some essentials in the sextant box - signal mirror / compact and sun protection ointments, put on your stout walking shoes, and head out.
Camp 2 could be the bivouac site near Kanawa Point. Camp 3, who knows. Camp 7 is at the 7 site of course, where you come across turtle tracks on the beach, so you hang out there to catch one, butchering it with the crude tools you have, and cooking it in a fire. Seems like a pretty nice place to hang out, birds are easy to catch, crabs are available, clams nearby, Buka forest is cool when the breeze blows. About as nice as any place on the island, and certainly nicer than Nutiran which was really hot. Nice enough that you end up going back to Camp 2 where your stuff is stored, and bringing whatever items you fancy down to the 7 site.
Who knows, the 7 site may not even be the final camp site, but it does have several of the ingredients as described by Gallagher, so it is an intriguing place, only compounded by the odd stuff we've found there.
Anyway, a bunch of speculation, but my point is that if we're going to talk about Camp Zero, I think we should focus only on the very first camp up where the airplane may have been. That is where the useless items might have been abandoned once the Electra went over the edge.
Andrew
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Andrew
As you Have been on the reef, Based on were we speculate the Electra come to rest, following the safest path to the shore ?
what path is most likely
X marks the spot, 3 arrows 3 routes to shore, What direction in your experience would be safest way.
in my opinion you would set up camp close to safest path back to Electra ?
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Chris
I don't think the Arundel camp would be so easy to spot from the air, nor from the landing spot. AE would have been pretty focused on getting the aircraft safely back on the ground, not searching stuff in the trees. My opinion only, Gary's mileage may vary. He has REALLY good eyes. :-)
If the Arundel building was 50 yards into the bush, it would also be very hard to see from the beach. There is typically a wall of Scaevlola right along the beach that is hard to see and walk through, but inside a bit there often are clearer areas, and you can see this on the Sat photo. It is in these semi cleared areas that it is easier to build stuff and I think that is why the Arundel building, the NZ camp, and the NC survivor's Camp #2 (remember they moved from their Camp Zero to a new spot 2 days after the grounding) were built inland a tad in the shade around the edges of these clearings. Also offers some protection from the bad weather.
So I'm imagining that after some exploring, AE / FN finds what looks like a trail or path through the scaevola and follows it from the beach back into the bush only to find the Arundel buildings in the clearing behind.
Richie
Crossing the reef flat is usually driven by two principles
1 as direct as possible to minimize the distance and therefore the risk
2 any way you can - meaning you have do pick and choose your route based upon what you encounter - bumps, holes, slippery stuff, cracks, whatever. Often it is easier to go through the big holes as the footing is better in the bottom than around. If the tide is up a bit, it can be easier to semi swim in shallow water rather than try to walk.
So to answer your question, if my goal is to get ashore and I'm not headed anywhere else afterwards, like back to the village, I'd take the most direct route, i.e. the middle arrow. Could be that a better path is found during subsequent trips, but I don't think the variation would be enough to move camp.
It is possible to cross the Tatiaman passage. It is easiest to do so at low tide when the water is about waist high, but it has been done at high tide, when the water gets about chest high. There are times in between high and low tide when the current is running strongly into or out of the lagoon, and those times would be the most dangerous to try. If you don't like what you see, just wait a few hours, the calm waters found during high or low tide are always only 6 hours away.
Yes, the sharks do come to investigate, and it is un-nerving at first, but you can dissuade them by being aggressive back at them. They prefer easy pickin's that don't fight back. After the first time you'd prepare yourself with a long stick or center part of a palm frond (or metal detector) to slap the water with as they approach. If you haven't seen Mark Smith's video on YouTube, you should. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PacL4n2Oy4c&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PacL4n2Oy4c&feature=plcp) See how they turn and run the second time.
I hope that helps.
Andrew
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....During this time, there is probably a little exploring done when not resting, just as the NC survivors tried to explore, but I think that we all agree that you wouldn't want to be too far away from the Electra knowing that there was likely a search on, and with the Electra being the thing that will be seen, psychologically you want to be nearby when the searchers arrive......
I'd pretty much go along everything ...with one slight corollary.
This is speculation (and I am often quite wet on such things), but I might offer that although they were expecting a Search-and-Rescue operation they may very well have presumed that operation to be solely in the form of ships, launches, and landing parties. There were precious few aircraft of any sort in that part of the world at that time. It doesn't seem inconceivable that, as such, (unless they knew of an aircraft carrier in the neighbourhood) they felt that they could spend great amounts of time in the bush because any ship or landing party sighted would be around much longer than it would take to crawl out of the scrub to meet it.
I wonder if the appearance of aircraft overhead was not just a huge surprise. After all, the whole enterprise seems to have been fraught with miscalculation and error ....beginning right at the takeoff roll at Lae. The Gods hadn't smiled on them once.
tb
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Yeah, you could be right about straying farther, and yes I do think the aerial search would have caught them by surprise.
I still think that as long as the Electra was there, they would have not strayed too far. With being up at night trying to broadcast, run the engines, etc, and the fact that sleeping in the open is not easy - read the NC survivors story about trying to sleep the first few nights - they would have been pretty pooped during the first week. At least the big crabs aren't as active in the heat of the day. I imagine them catching up on their sleep during the day the first week.
All speculation, could have, would have.
amck
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although they were expecting a Search-and-Rescue operation they may very well have presumed that operation to be solely in the form of ships, launches, and landing parties. There were precious few aircraft of any sort in that part of the world at that time.
The appearance of aircraft overhead may well have come as a completes surprise
Very good point Thom and, Not sure if it has been discussed before.
WE are all assuming that they expected to be rescued by being seen by SAR planes.
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This has been a very interesting discussion. I n fact-I think there has been enough 'speculation' about camp Zero, and the possibility of maybe some artifacts, that an archaeological survey is indicated. 7 site is very revealing, but I think kknowing about the first few days on the island is important. We feel strongly abou the radio transmissions the first few nights, so making a camp near the electra is reasonable. Whether its near the shoreline, or back in the trees, it IS the place where AE was, at least for a time. Granted, winds, tides, storms, overwash, etc, are all working against us in our search of this area, but if we can find 1 item, it warrants further investigation.
And, shows we are on the right track as far as 'proving' AE was there.
Thoughts?
Tom
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I think that the idea of looking for Camp Zero has risen in the priority list of things we would like to do there next time we get out there.
We've not done a really concentrated search up that far, although part of that area seems to have been covered in 1999.
andrew
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Yeah, you could be right about straying farther, and yes I do think the aerial search would have caught them by surprise.
I still think that as long as the Electra was there, they would have not strayed too far. With being up at night trying to broadcast, run the engines, etc, and the fact that sleeping in the open is not easy - read the NC survivors story about trying to sleep the first few nights - they would have been pretty pooped during the first week. At least the big crabs aren't as active in the heat of the day. I imagine them catching up on their sleep during the day the first week.
All speculation, could have, would have.
amck
There is the other side to that coin....and I guess that was essentially my point. Although they wouldn't stray far on a permanent basis, as long as there was a big red and silver airplane sitting in the open on the reef it couldn't help but catch the attention of a search. As such, they could safely delve deeper into the bush knowing that big shining beacon was there. It certainly would be seen long before two people running about and waving their arms.
Of course, all of this is moot anyway as the big shiny beacon on the reef had become a big shiny anchor at the bottom of the deep by the time help arrived. My guess though is that they still thought they'd have upward of a half hour to meet that help...instead of a couple minutes. If so, that assumption capped off every other bit of bad luck they'd had that week and they paid the price for it.
Who knows, perhaps this bit of bad luck is what actually drove them to the Seven Site. With the least obstructed view in all directions.....perhaps, among everything else, they were making sure they didn't make the same mistake twice? Save of course they never got another chance.
As you said.....it's all idle pie-in-the-sky speculation.
Unfortunately, I have to wonder about any real chance of success in finding Camp Zero. Anything left behind in the move to the Seven Site would have been picked over first by Bevington and Co., and the rest by 25-odd years of colonials.....it being so close to their own respective camps. (Of course, this all assumes we are correct as to the location of the landing site....and I think we are.) Any fire features and etc would have been similarly absorbed...or at the very least trodden over to the point of obliteration. Any piece or part of Camp Zero found would be compleatly unidentifiable as uniquely Camp Zero (unless it happens to be Freds' captains' license or some such.)
That has been the beauty of our luck at the Seven Site. It's apparently the one part of the island that nobody else ever had much interest in.
Not at all saying that the effort shouldn't be made....only that it seems the longest of long shots. But hey...if we're going to take a swing, we might as well swing for the bleachers.
tb
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Thom sez "... My guess though is that they still thought they'd have upward of a half hour to meet that help...instead of a couple minutes."
Your post brings to my mind that, assuming AE/FN had transmitted from the reef, that the arrival of "help" overhead would have signaled to them that their transmissions had been detected and DF'd to their current location. In other words, they THOUGHT THEY HAD BEEN FOUND. They might not have considered that the aircraft flying overhead were conducting a broad area search, rather than a search of only those areas the Pan Am radio operators triangulated.