TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Chris Johnson on June 23, 2012, 08:47:12 AM

Title: NIKU VII
Post by: Chris Johnson on June 23, 2012, 08:47:12 AM
Latest from main site

Updated expedition news (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7expedition.html)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on June 23, 2012, 09:06:47 AM
If that amount of kit doesn't find something nothing will.  ;)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Randy Conrad on June 23, 2012, 09:48:05 AM
In a matter of days...the long awaited journey begins and the 75 year mystery will be answered! Whether we find anything or not is yet to be foretold. However, each and everyone of us has played a unique part in this upcoming voyage! For many of you, like myself, it started years ago when a shoe part was found, and many of us took to the forum as our getaway per say. For many of us, Amelia has spirited us into broadening our horizons, and telling us not to give up!!! Then came the expedition teams and the voyages to Niku. There was those long days and nights, when many of the team members spent countless hours cutting all that folage and digging into the rocky reef looking for anything. Almost twenty years later, and many expeditions, things are popping out of the sand, and artifacts are being discussed. We now have airplane skin, shoe parts, compact mirror pieces, bottles, and freckle cream jars, and rouge. There are those smoking gun parts that we have in our midst, but still no gun (such as the landing gear). As the team over the years came into new evidence and artifacts, so did they encounter the hardships of living on an unhabited atoll. The painstaking heat, snowcrabs and hermit crabs, sharks, and anything else imagineable. There were those times of sadness, as we learned as a whole on the passing of Karen, but remember her passion for her field of work (not only at Tighar but around the world). Finally, twenty years later we have come to this point in the journey. As for Ric Gillepsie...its nice to see him at the helm of this mission! He deserves it!@ It seemed just like yesterday that he was asked about Amelia, and now he has the excellent opportunity to answer the biggest mystery question of the century. For many of you like myself, I wish I could have had the big bucks, but any denomination would have helped in raising the funds for this voyage. I would have liked to been there, but I don't know if the ship would hold all us Amelia enthusiasts. Anyway, my point in all my writing madness this morning, is to conduct a blessing to our wonderful friend Ric, and the tighar team and ship crew that will make this voyage happen. Ric...for many years now God has blessed you with many blessings. The ability to see things that most people had laid to rest and given up on. You've taken your God-given talents and applied them to finding new ways and means on locating the Electra. Along the way, God has blessed you with a outstanding team and placed you in the midst of so many friends. We are thankful that many of us after so long, we're given the opportunity to go to Washington D.C. for this historic conference, but to see for ourselves the artifacts and the theories at hand. Yes, you encountered most of us. From the wittiness of Collin Cobb (you gotta admit this guy is a hoot!!!), to the outspoken Thomas King, Anthony Mckenna, Irv, Tom Swearigen, Martin Moleski , Skip, Lonnie, Monty, and the list goes on. Let's not forget Julia!!! As much as we debated her theories, most of us have to admit she has the beauty of Amelia inside of her. Which is a spirit many of us possess in our hearts. Always searching for something! As we await the countdown, most of us will dig out that old bottle of wine, or cold brewski in the fridge, or might take that trip to the pub....and then celebrate all the accomplishments!!! If you find something my friend...Its double cheers to you and drinks around per say. Whatever the case....we toast you with many blessings on your journey back to Niku, and we pray to God that you will have safe travels during this time! Bon Voyage Ric and Crew!!!! (Hold Glasses up High Guys!!!) GOD BLESS TIGHAR AND GOD BLESS YOU!!!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 23, 2012, 09:59:31 AM
Thanks Randy, but I'm just the guy who blows the whistle, waives the pistol, shouts "Follow me!" and goes over the top - and is usually the first one to get shot.

We'll do our best out there.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 23, 2012, 10:39:13 AM
Thanks Randy, but I'm just the guy who blows the whistle, waives the pistol, shouts "Follow me!" and goes over the top - and is usually the first one to get shot.

Sometimes from behind.   ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on June 23, 2012, 11:00:25 AM
Thanks Randy, but I'm just the guy who blows the whistle, waives the pistol, shouts "Follow me!" and goes over the top - and is usually the first one to get shot.

Sometimes from behind.   ;D

Haha Class  ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on June 23, 2012, 03:21:51 PM
All of us, no matter what theory we believe or not believe, wish Ric well with the Expedition. I'm pretty certain the they will find something, and my personal hope is the Electra.
Randy speaks more eloquently than I, so I'm jut second his best wishes.
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Randy Reid on June 24, 2012, 11:24:52 AM
Quote
Thanks Randy, but I'm just the guy who blows the whistle, waives the pistol, shouts "Follow me!" and goes over the top - and is usually the first one to get shot.

Well, just so long as you don't shoot yourself ;D

anyhow, good luck,
the other Randy(not nearly as eloquent)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tim Collins on June 25, 2012, 07:36:32 AM
For what it's worth the days and dates on the itinerary don't match up. 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 25, 2012, 07:59:12 AM
For what it's worth the days and dates on the itinerary don't match up.

Yeah, we just spotted that.  We'll fix it.  The dates are right.  Some of the days of the week are wrong.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 25, 2012, 11:27:33 AM
Thanks Randy, but I'm just the guy who blows the whistle, waives the pistol, shouts "Follow me!" and goes over the top - and is usually the first one to get shot.

We'll do our best out there.

Shouldn't that be - First one out of the boat and into a bottomless pit of ... nahhh, we don't want to talk about it.  ;D  I know, my bad.

LTM, who remembers what Martin Sheen said about getting out of the boat,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Edgard Engelman on June 25, 2012, 12:49:54 PM
Thanks Randy, but I'm just the guy who blows the whistle, waives the pistol, shouts "Follow me!" and goes over the top - and is usually the first one to get shot.

We'll do our best out there.

Shouldn't that be - First one out of the boat and into a bottomless pit of ... nahhh, we don't want to talk about it.  ;D  I know, my bad.

LTM, who remembers what Martin Sheen said about getting out of the boat,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

That's for the Marines. Ric was Army
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on June 25, 2012, 01:18:36 PM
Ric,
please tell me: How long will it take that anyone who is interested in NIKU VII will know that something was found? (If something was found) I guess there will be an update every day. Do you post quickly: There seems to be a plane down the reef or will you say nothing till you're back again?
Good luck to you and all the guys being at Niku!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Gary LaPook on June 25, 2012, 02:24:16 PM
Thanks Randy, but I'm just the guy who blows the whistle, waives the pistol, shouts "Follow me!" and goes over the top - and is usually the first one to get shot.

We'll do our best out there.

Shouldn't that be - First one out of the boat and into a bottomless pit of ... nahhh, we don't want to talk about it.  ;D  I know, my bad.

LTM, who remembers what Martin Sheen said about getting out of the boat,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

That's for the Marines. Ric was Army
Actually Sheen was in the army but the guy who said "never get out of the boat" was a navy guy after he got chased by a tiger.

gl
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Leon R White on June 25, 2012, 03:13:36 PM
Is anyone ready to go on the record for the final time before the dives?  There are lots of posts, facts, data, hypothises, opinions, debates and questions already.  Who is up for their final statement on the outcome of the trip?

I'll start.

I predict they will find aircraft wreckage of at least one non military, pre-war aluminimum aircraft, on or near the beach of Niku (within say 2000 Yards) submerged or not. (the wreckage, not the beach)

I  predict they will find evidence of an electra type aircraft (real or japanese version).

I believe they will find evidence of the electra from AE, and that it will show evidence of having had a controlled (or uncontrolled) landing on or near the island of Niku.  This evidence will be smoking gun level: unique markings, parts, assemblies, features, locations and condition that some of us will accept as indicative of proof. (Not proof mind you, I don't want to have one of those discussions again, just indicative of proof.)

I believe there will be sunburns and tense moments with at least one member of crew or passengers thrown overboard while at anchor (watch out Ric).

I believe some previous or current forum members will offer alternative explanations on what happened to AE and FN, based upon the newly discovered information. These explanations will seek to offer alternatives to AE and FN ever having been on the island, or they will refute something supporting the AE and FN Niku theories.

I'll bet that one or more new sea going pessimists, never seen by science before, will be seen and recorded.

I'll bet the Bevington Object is not found. 

I pray that all concerned remain safe, that they enjoy the moment, regardless of outcome, and that no gear or patience is lost (at least not lost permanently).  If any of these things occur, I promise not to define Valid again.

Godspeed Ric and team, one and all.

Leon




Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on June 25, 2012, 03:22:35 PM
Very well put Leon, and I personally am in agreement with your thoughts-except the Bevington Object----I bleieve our ROV friends will find it, along with the black squiggely thing with a deflated Goodyear Turf Tire.
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Leon R White on June 25, 2012, 03:33:46 PM
The black squiggley thing (coral) will be rubber seal, gasket, or such.  If not, have a cold beer on . . Ric.

L
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on June 26, 2012, 09:41:31 AM
Probably not a brake hose like I first thought last year. Jeff Nevill and I thrashed that pretty throughly. Black coral---thats for our geololgists friends. BUT----if I'm right---we'll ALL have one on Ric! LOL

Wow---that does bring up and interesting question for Mike and the ROV guys----how much 'lifting" capacity does the ROV have? We know it did a great job getting the Air France flight recorders, but 'could' it lift something like a gear strut? That is, of course, that its there.
tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on June 26, 2012, 10:58:29 AM
i believe the black squigy will be the rubber sleeve cover for the pipes  :-X
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on June 26, 2012, 11:40:27 AM
just watching this video on youtube of an Electra, it's not hard to see why the landing gear was so fragile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=halcPvrj-hI
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: George Pachulski on June 28, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
I wish them luck , but ten thousand years of coconut husks, bird guanno, and a big, big, deep ocean full of coral hunks from the settlers ship waterway slip may give them a lot of rouble trouble.  Not to mention the gynormous aft end of the Norwich herself  sittin on an electra ....leaves me to speculate ... I have a queasy feeling about this ..
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: don hirth on June 28, 2012, 11:04:49 AM
Re: Leon White's predictions........I hope/believe, that one or more 'heavy' (non-floatable) items are found and with the necessary 'preliminary scratching/probing' a definite LINK with AEs Electra
is established. I'm thinking in terms of engines, instrument panel, interior fuel tanks, wheel
assemblies or portions of the airframe (skeleton) Of course aluminum parts which can be matched would also be welcome. I only wish that addn. provision was incl. in THIS trip for removal and 'capture."  As to the island itself, I fear that colonists, weather, overgrowth and
father time have combined to preclude any meaningful discoveries. ('Hope I'm wrong on this)

Bless the expedition and all of its participants. Work safely and with imagination and may Lady Luck, once again rear her head!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on June 28, 2012, 12:39:18 PM
HUMMMM --nothing from our on site reporter---LISA ANNE where are you??????? ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Cynthia M Kennedy on June 28, 2012, 01:08:05 PM
I will be eagerly awaiting the news from NIKU VII--that the Electra has been located.

Prayers for a safe journey.

LTM,

Cindy
TIGHAR #3167
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on June 28, 2012, 01:20:04 PM
I will be eagerly awaiting the news from NIKU VII--that the Electra has been located.

Prayers for a safe journey.

LTM,

Cindy
TIGHAR #3167

Prayers for a safe journey.

That's the important bit Cindy
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: C.W. Herndon on June 28, 2012, 01:32:44 PM
AMEN!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: JC Sain on June 28, 2012, 04:11:15 PM
Safe trip for everyone. Fingers crossed.

My prediction is based on how things have gone so far. Which seems to be the hard way. Thus the Electra is covered with debris from the ship. If parts can be found and identified they are under tons of ship and cannot be recovered at this depth.

I hope to be wrong.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on June 29, 2012, 01:07:58 PM
A FedEx press release (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/on-75th-anniversary-of-amelia-earharts-disappearance-search-for-answers-continues-with-departure-of-tighar-expedition-2012-06-29) at 1 p.m. today says this about Niku VII:  "The 26-day expedition and its findings will be captured by a film crew from Discovery Channel and aired as a documentary in August 2012. "
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on June 29, 2012, 01:11:17 PM
Bruce--you arent going? :o (!) Hopefully we will get some daily updates with "breaking news'
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on June 29, 2012, 01:14:52 PM
Bruce--you arent going? :o (!) Hopefully we will get some daily updates with "breaking news'

Watch this spot! (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies.html)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: JC Sain on June 29, 2012, 02:55:47 PM
I have been watching that spot in your post but it has not moved yet.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Sheila Shigley on June 29, 2012, 11:58:40 PM
Best of luck and Godspeed, Ric and crew!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Lisa Anne Hill on June 30, 2012, 03:46:31 PM
It's getting close! (I'm here, Tom S., never fear...)
Hopefully will be able to post some pics tomorrow or Monday...I can't figure out how to get my photos on the forum! Help! I've tried to 'attach' a pic but it doesn't seem to work for me. Can anyone shed light on this?

Thanks,

Lisa
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on June 30, 2012, 04:20:09 PM
It's getting close! (I'm here, Tom S., never fear...)
Hopefully will be able to post some pics tomorrow or Monday...I can't figure out how to get my photos on the forum! Help! I've tried to 'attach' a pic but it doesn't seem to work for me. Can anyone shed light on this?

Thanks,

Lisa

When you're keying your text in, just look below the white box .... there's a clickable thingee "Attachments and other options." It allows you to attach up to 4 pictures.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Randy Conrad on June 30, 2012, 08:01:04 PM
I don't know bout you all...but this suspense is starting to kill me! Afterall, you're looking at a guy who found this woman interesting since grade school, and has been a part of the forum for many years. Like so many of you...I've had alot of late nights and alot of early mornings ponderin on certain questions and theories that have been brought to play! Overall, its brought us together as a group to solve the greatest mystery of all time. I think Ric needs to place a clock in the upper hand corner of the website. Kinda of like the liftoff clock at Cape Canaveral. Anyway, whatever the outcome and I can honestly say that its been alot of fun over the years!!! In the coming days it will be intense suspense for those aboard the crew and for Ric, we can only imagine a new father waiting patiently in the birthin waiting room. Its kinda of like a surprise birthday party and we're just waiting  for that door to open up and there she'll be. Or will it be a retirement party!!! Either way, most of you will agree that its been alot of fun. I was really overtaken by those at the conference in D.C. who have become addicted to one woman and what she has stood for in American History. It was quite evident of those who drew upon her exhibit at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum. Mostly those were young girls fascinated by her accomplishments and there hearts cry "If Amelia could do it....So can I" attitude!!! I was truly taken by the thought how this woman could make an impact long after she's gone. If in the coming days, Ric and the crew do find something...I believe it is our duty to recognize her nationally by a major monument or some form of ceremony. Maybe a day in her honor...Amelia Earhart Day!!! She may have had a hard time landing planes, but I can honestly say she had more guts than I ever will to get in a plane 15 minutes after seeing it. Anyway, the days are counting down and in just two days we will mark that fateful day 75 years ago!!! Let's all pray for Ric, the Tighar Crew, those involved with ship operations, and those running all the mini-subs, for their personal safety. We pray that there will finally be an answer and a resolve, and that finally a chapter in American History will finally be read! Good Luck and God Bless!!!!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 01, 2012, 07:29:04 AM
Very well said Randy. Amelia has touch us all in certain ways. Yes, Godspeed to Ric & Co for a safe trip to Niku, for finding what we are looking for, and returning safely with the evidence we need to solve this mystery.
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jon Romig on July 01, 2012, 05:03:39 PM
I, a recent donor and latecomer to this forum, also wish success, and the best of luck, to the Niku VII team.

At the same time I am disturbed that so many of us appear to believe that "THIS IS IT!" - that Niku VII will finally provide the positive proof we are all seeking and hoping for. Unfortunately, there are many reasons that Niku VII could fail, too many to enumerate. How can anyone believe that the odds of success exceed 25% or so?

So I offer my hearty "good hunting" to the team, but I am also in this for the long haul, which is likely what it will take.

Patience and perseverance has done it so far. Meanwhile, let's enjoy the chase.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 01, 2012, 05:13:36 PM
I, a recent donor and latecomer to this forum, also wish success, and the best of luck, to the Niku VII team.

At the same time I am disturbed that so many of us appear to believe that "THIS IS IT!" - that Niku VII will finally provide the positive proof we are all seeking and hoping for. Unfortunately, there are many reasons that Niku VII could fail, too many to enumerate. How can anyone believe that the odds of success exceed 25% or so?

So I offer my hearty "good hunting" to the team, but I am also in this for the long haul, which is likely what it will take.

Patience and perseverance has done it so far. Meanwhile, let's enjoy the chase.

Welcome to the madhouse Jon!
I for one expect this trip to come up with something more than bits of broken glass, clam shells and turtle bones. The guys have put in a lot of effort recently and deserve a break. It will be a boost to find aircraft wreckage on the reef and should provide a big piece of the jigsaw regarding the Electra and its whereabouts. If not here then...well, it's the remains of someones aircraft.
IMHO of course
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 01, 2012, 07:46:51 PM
Hi Jon, and welcome from me too! You now, some members may be right, and the pictures are of lumps of coral. Some may be right, and it may be aircraft wreckage. I would think that most of us agree that the search is warranted, whatever becomes of it. The results of the search wont be debated, although the theories will be. Thats why we search.
Jump in---the water is warm, although there are sharks in the area!!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 01, 2012, 08:06:02 PM
Bruce--you arent going? :o (!) Hopefully we will get some daily updates with "breaking news'

Watch this spot! (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies.html)
I have been watching that spot in your post but it has not moved yet.

First post for the Niku VII expedition (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies.html) has been put into place.  In the immortal words of Jack Lord/Steve McGarrett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Five-O), "Book[mark] 'im, Danno!"  <sigh> Oh, for the good old days when I lived in Honolulu and the Hawaii Five-O production trailers would zip past on the highway. </sigh> Maybe if we all think good thoughts, a current TIGHAR living in the Honolulu area will perform a drive-by of the K-O-K and give us a report.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 01, 2012, 08:53:45 PM
TIGHAR,
Thanks for sharing the story of these two adventures taking place 75 years apart.
To the NIKU VII team, a safe voyage and good luck.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 02, 2012, 02:21:37 AM
BBC news coverage UK + TV coverage 2nd July 2012

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18670048 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18670048)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 02, 2012, 06:27:05 AM
July 2, 2012 -- the 75th anniversary.

On NBC's Today show, shortly after 8 a.m. EDT, Brian Williams teased a report that'll appear on this evening's NBC Nightly News about the Niku VII expedition.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 02, 2012, 07:21:11 AM
Randy---all of us ( i think) are on pins and needles! Gee wouldnt it be nice if we had a live feed to see what was going on!!! I guess we'll just have to see the daily reports, and the discovery show.
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 02, 2012, 07:30:45 AM
July 2, 2012 -- the 75th anniversary.

On NBC's Today show, shortly after 8 a.m. EDT, Brian Williams teased a report that'll appear on this evening's NBC Nightly News about the Niku VII expedition.

I saw it. Just hope they get the story close to right. I guess that sometimes any publiciity is better than none. Maybe help the fund raising.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Ricker H Jones on July 02, 2012, 10:47:02 AM
The first of the "daily reports" is up here (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies.html).
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Lisa Anne Hill on July 02, 2012, 11:55:27 AM
This is gonna be a great day!

At noon or so Hawaii time I will be down at the UH marine research center, presenting Ric a small token of well-wishes from his friends on the forum (I hope no one minds me speaking on their behalf!) ;D
He was very gracious to offer me a tour of the ship and a ride down to the fueling dock (mini-harbor cruise). So...I'm callling in sick today. LOL
If I can ever find out how to get images from my computer posted here...sigh.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 02, 2012, 12:05:22 PM
Lisa---I dont think anyone on here will have an issue with that!.   So-----you called in WELL---like well i have somethin more important to do than work. Damn thats cool!!!!!
Say hey to Ric for us!
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Gus Rubio on July 02, 2012, 12:35:04 PM
Just a quick note to the Expeditioners from a well-wisher- stay safe, be thorough, and bring Amelia and Fred back home.  God bless and the very best of weather and luck!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 02, 2012, 12:58:28 PM
This is gonna be a great day!
...
If I can ever find out how to get images from my computer posted here...sigh.

Lisa Anne, as you begin to compose a new message, look below the composition (see image #1 below) window and click on the "Attachments and other options" link.  That expands that option to present you with a "browse" function so that you can navigate to the picture file in your computer, choose, and attach it (see image #2 below).  For attaching multiple pictures (up to four), click on the  "(more attachments)" underneath where your first picture's file name appeared.

Just remember that when you "preview" your message, you will not be shown your attachments.  But when you "post" the message, they will be there.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Dave Potratz on July 02, 2012, 01:56:48 PM
Best wishes for Ric and ALL associated with NIKU VII.  May you experience good karma all the way.

Most Exciting!! 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 02, 2012, 03:04:40 PM
little clip from YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHaV0WsnM2M
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: David S Kuharski on July 02, 2012, 10:17:44 PM
I enjoyed the YouTube video but the comments below it are very disturbing. Is that really how the public is viewing this expedition?

Either way, best of luck on the search! I am looking forward to the daily updates!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on July 03, 2012, 12:03:06 AM
I enjoyed the YouTube video but the comments below it are very disturbing. Is that really how the public is viewing this expedition?

Either way, best of luck on the search! I am looking forward to the daily updates!

Yes, some of the comments are very stupid. So we should write our comments too.  (Did so!) All should know that no taxpayer's money is wasted.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Leon R White on July 03, 2012, 07:47:26 AM
I agree.  In the US, when you look at comments after an article the majority are hyper-critical, angry, sarcastic and negative.  The only exception is the death of someone trying to do a good deed, or about the good deed if the person is successful.  I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't keep seeing it over and over.  And it is hard to ignore.  It seems we are consumed with anger.

Well I'm not, and the first angry person I meet I'll fight to the death to prove it. Nobody is going to call me angry!!

But all seriousness aside, I tried to post there but have had login trouble.  I'm not a 'believer' as some might criticize, but I am a well wisher (I do believe TIGHAR is right, but this is not a trivial undertaking and not entirely safe either.) So I'll hold the right thought for safety and no mechanical failures, and look for a positive result. 
And I'll remember the people like Leo Bellarts as I last saw them in interviews, and hope this is the answer.

Leon

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 03, 2012, 07:59:37 AM
Well said Leon
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bill Roe on July 03, 2012, 09:25:52 PM
I enjoyed the YouTube video but the comments below it are very disturbing. Is that really how the public is viewing this expedition?

Either way, best of luck on the search! I am looking forward to the daily updates!

Yes, some of the comments are very stupid. So we should write our comments too.  (Did so!) All should know that no taxpayer's money is wasted.

By all means we should weigh in with the truth.  Sad, such negative, ill-informed stuff showing up.......................

LTM -

Absolutely!  Aren't most followers negative when they don't have enough information to be positive? 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 04, 2012, 08:02:33 AM
Wow Bill---great statement!!!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 04, 2012, 08:11:20 AM
Any news today on KOK sailing? Lisa----did you stowaway? ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 04, 2012, 11:52:44 AM
Today's posting by Jeff (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,721.msg15546.html#msg15546) on another thread is a reminder that, as we wait with bated breath for the next morsel of news from the expedition, we should gratefully acknowledge those companies (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7expedition.html#sponsors) that have made major contributions to the funding of Niku VII -- especially the company that built NR16020 (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/features/2012/earhart.html).
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 05, 2012, 01:14:20 PM
My favourite plane ever!
Lockheed U-2 and TR series planes. You gotta admire a plane design that requires the pilot to stall it to get it on the ground. Those birds loved to fly, they hated the ground. ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 06, 2012, 12:43:54 PM
i have just been reading on sky news that the expert that retrieved the black boxes from Air France crash is aboard ship.

Is that to help find parts, Buried by sediment or is there a possibility parts could be raised on this expedition ?

http://news.sky.com/story/955538/expedition-to-find-amelia-earharts-plane
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Lisa Anne Hill on July 06, 2012, 03:51:11 PM
So by now I bet some of you thought I DID stow away on KoK - if only that had been the case. Sigh. ;)

What a great time, though, made possible by Ric's generosity and the friendliness of everyone aboard that I met. I was able to spend Monday afternoon on the boat, even rode down to the refueling dock and back (fun but in truth not all that exciting. Smooth ride)

Ric loved the gift - in case these pictures don't make it up on the Forum, I'll tell you all what it was: Bruce Thomas had the idea to get Ric and the team a bottle of Benedictine as sort of a gag gift (thanks again Bruce for the idea!! Can't believe I pulled it off!). They'll have to "sneak" it on the boat though since the cap'n runs a "dry" boat...

I cannot express enough how nice it was that Ric took the time from his busy schedule to show me around and introduce me to everyone - and if I try to name everyone, I know I will forget someone...but what a class act. I can't wait to hear what happens at Niku!  I've invitied everyone from the team to come to the Battleship Missouri for tours, time permitting, when they return - that is if there aren't any big earthshaking press conferences to announce...well, you know.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Lisa Anne Hill on July 06, 2012, 03:56:18 PM
YAY! Pictures made it! I wonder if it's something having to do with my computer at home? oh well... ???

Almost forgot - Ric wanted me to say "hi" to y'all here on the forum and thank you for your support and good wishes.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 06, 2012, 04:51:03 PM
So by now I bet some of you thought I DID stow away on KoK - if only that had been the case. Sigh. ;)
I was beginning to worry, Lisa!  Ask Tom.

They'll have to "sneak" it on the boat though since the cap'n runs a "dry" boat...
There shouldn't be any problem there with the cap'n.  After all, you did empty the contents and fill it back half-full of water like I told you, didn't you?  WHAT!!

Seriously, I'm tickled that you got the opportunity to have your own little Earhart75 Symposium there in Honolulu.  Now we'll all have to just be patient until midnight July 11 (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies.html#n0705), while the K-O-K imitates a slow boat to China Niku.

Thanks for the update (and especially the pictures!), Lisa.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 07, 2012, 10:06:15 AM
Hey Lisa=====glad you made it back to shore---thought maybe you did stowaway!!! ;D
Great pics----you'll have to tell us about your mini symposium!
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on July 11, 2012, 08:05:19 AM
Lets see, in the dailies found here

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies2.html#n708 (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies2.html#n708)

Pat says "They should arrive at Nikumaroro in the wee hours of Thursday, July 12, local time. They will begin immediately to map the primary search area with the Multi-Beam; if it’s still dark when they finish that, they’ll do a lap around the island (about two hours) to generate a general profile of the reef."


Since local Niku time is UCT +13, that means they should be arriving about now = UCT Weds July 11, 1400 hrs.  Should be 3 am Niku Time, July 12th (Did I get that right?), and they just might have fish in the water by now.


Happy fishing, hook the big one.

Andrew
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 11, 2012, 08:18:46 AM
you guys are better at keeping time than I am-----but i hope you are right.
so Pat is writing the dailies. COOL----excellent job!
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Anthony Allen Roach on July 11, 2012, 10:31:50 AM
I thought I read somewhere that the dailies are being posted based on our time and date as of Eastern time in the U.S.  If that is true, then the KOK should arrive in the early morning hour of tomorrow for the U.S., which would be Friday on the other side of the dateline.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 11, 2012, 10:48:53 AM
Lets see, in the dailies found here

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies2.html#n708 (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies2.html#n708)

Pat says "They should arrive at Nikumaroro in the wee hours of Thursday, July 12, local time. They will begin immediately to map the primary search area with the Multi-Beam; if it’s still dark when they finish that, they’ll do a lap around the island (about two hours) to generate a general profile of the reef."


Since local Niku time is UCT +13, that means they should be arriving about now = UCT Weds July 11, 1400 hrs.  Should be 3 am Niku Time, July 12th (Did I get that right?), and they just might have fish in the water by now.


Happy fishing, hook the big one.

Andrew

Actually, we have here a similar situation to what AE faced with Itasca at Howland Island, where the ship used a different local time from those on the island, and AE was using GMT.  It gets all confused.

Each night, I've been plotting the lat/long in Google Earth that Pat has put on the webpage, watching the slooooow progress in a "perfectly" straight line of about 213 degrees out of Honolulu (for Ric's sake, it passes comfortably offshore McKean, and headed for the west of Niku).  I've also been comparing her figures to what KoK's daily report is saying (and that seems to conform to the way other vessels I've traveled on) to be a noon-time posting.  So some of my pushpins on GE have "local time" and others say "EDT".  (For a nice GE view, see what Rick Jones has just posted (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,605.msg16312.html#msg16312).  I wonder how many of us have been doing the same surrepticiously! ;-) )

In Pat's posting last night that you reference, she spoke of them crossing the equator yesterday (Tuesday) at about 10 minutes before 2 p.m. ship-time.  On the daily report of KoK (http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/UMC/Reports/KOKreport.htm), they wrote
Quote
POSITION: LAT: 00-13.7 N   LONG: 171-30.2 W
MILES RUN: 217 NM
TOTAL MILES RUN: 1495 NM AV. SPD 9.0 @ 230 RPM
DISTANCE TO GO: 349 NM
CROSSING EQUATOR AT APPROX 1400 HRS. 
WE SHOULD ARRIVE ON STATION NIKUMARORO IS.  APPROX 0300 7/12/12. 
SHIP AND CREW DOING FINE.

(BTW, for weekend noon reports, the daily postings usually don't appear until Monday or Tuesday.  So I guess it's a manual process involving someone back in Honolulu to update that webpage.)

Anthony has just posted something while I've been composing this that sounds right from what I can discern.  From the "APPROX 0300 7/12/12" in yesterday's (local) noon posting, I infer that they aren't (yet) considering themselves to be on the other side of the virtual Kiribati dateline.   Whether they're using Honolulu time, or have pushed their clocks back an hour or two, is unknown to me.  But I'm expecting that as I'm watching TV late tonight, KoK will be slipping past McKean in the mid-afternoon (ship's time).  And when I wake up tomorrow, she'll be carefully preparing to avoid the fringing reef of Niku in the dark of about 3 a.m. (ship's time).   Paraphrasing the late Rodney King, "Can't we all use GMT/UCT?"
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Gus Rubio on July 11, 2012, 12:44:16 PM
The suspense is killing me!

The daily updates are great to read, if brief.  I just hope there are no technical or other issues that hamper the search. 

Wishing the TIGHAR crew clear water, cooling winds, and amazing discoveries.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Matt Revington on July 11, 2012, 12:51:12 PM
Yes there is a lot of suspense especially because even if they find   smoking gun they won't be able to tell us because of the agreement with Discovery.  We will be left to try to decode clues in the daily updates.  It would be nice to have a signal if they find something significant even if they can't give details until they get back to Hawaii or wherever the Discovery news conference would be.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on July 11, 2012, 01:05:14 PM
OK, according to Pat at TIGHAR Central:

"So far they are planning on staying on the U.S. side of the dateline. It's all pretty arbitrary and it helps everyone keep track of the days so that they get back in time for everyone to make their flights out."

Makes some sense and avoids a lot of confusion.  So it isn't UCT +13, it is UCT - 11 hrs, so they should be arriving there 1200 - 1400 hrs UCT July 12th.

Drat ! another half a day to go.

Andrew
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Dave Potratz on July 11, 2012, 01:13:29 PM
I'm figuring/hoping that, info-wise, "the cat" will not be able to stay in "the bag" and the floodgates will open right up (forgive the mixed metaphor  ::) ).

ExCITing?   Oh no, not HARDLY!!  :D

dp
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Anthony Allen Roach on July 11, 2012, 01:16:56 PM
Paraphrasing the late Rodney King, "Can't we all use GMT/UCT?"

That's why we always used to have a big meeting the night before any fleet exercise or amphibious operation, and make sure everyone was on the same sheet of music as to the time.  Of course, we would help the Marines by showing where Mickey's hands should be pointing.   :D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 11, 2012, 01:23:29 PM
oh anthony-------we all know that when there is a fight , the Navy give the Marines a ride.
Son of a 31 year Marine Gunner---(EOD)---and PROUD
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Anthony Allen Roach on July 11, 2012, 01:28:27 PM
I love the Marines.  And they loved working with me.  Just could not resist a little friendly poke in their direction.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 12, 2012, 04:57:12 AM
Bob---you are the man!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 12, 2012, 07:06:52 AM
It's now 1300 UTC, 0900 EDT, and (I think) 0300 ship's time.  In my mind's eye this morning, I see Ka'imikai-o-Kanaloa beginning to glide in the dark, parallel to the Nutiran shore, scanning the reef slope with sonar.  But in my mind's nose last night, as I drifted off to sleep, I was there in spirit, leaning on the rail of K-o-K looking toward where McKean should be, 10 miles off, and sniffing its fertile presence.

In honor of this day's achievement of Ric and Niku VII reaching the destination, I am compelled to share my favorite posting from 10 years ago, documenting Ric's recollection of TIGHAR's 1989 visit to McKean.  Even the imagery of troops in an LST approaching their target destination, which Pat evoked in last night's Niku VII progress posting (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies2.html#n711), is echoed in this story. 

Enjoy!

Quote
Date:         Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:33:26 EST
From:         Tom King
Subject:      Re: quicksand

Ric, I really think you have to tell them about McKean....
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Ahh McKean ... I can smell it now.
1989.  We had gone ashore over the reef (no landing channel at McKean Island)
riding the surf and slamming onto the beach like we were the 2nd Marine
Division.  We immediately came under heavy automatic droppings fire from the
one million (count 'em) seabirds that are the island's only inhabitants.

We divided our forces to recon the island and see if there was any indication
of airplane wreckage.  While the main group headed off for the far end, I set
off alone (sheer genius) to investigate the "lagoon" which is really just
a huge shin-deep pool with a bottom composed primarily of guano - Latin name:
Bird Shit.  Smithsonian ornithologists who had been there had assured me that
the lagoon was only about 18 inches deep.  True enough, but what they failed
to mention and perhaps had been smart enough to avoid finding out for
themselves, was that the bottom is made up of a crust of guano beneath which
is a seemingly bottomless pit of the most disgusting ooze you can imagine.

I was a good hundred yards out into the pool when the crust let go.  I
suddenly found myself up to my thighs in historic avian manure and every
movement I made prompted further descent.  At this point I said to myself,
"Self, you have a problem."  For lack of a better idea I got on the radio and
called the rest of the team.
"Hey guys, I'm sinking in the guano and I can't get out."
"What do you expect us to do about it?  We're on the other side of the
island."
"I guess I just wanted to let you know where to search for the body."
"Okay, good luck."
"Thanks."

By now I'm up to my crotch.  The phrase "What a way to go" does not begin to
express my disappointment at the prospect of continued sinking.  Time to get
creative.  Sitting or laying down would distribute my weight over a wider
area but if my butt broke through I'd be just that much closer to the unthinkable. 
I decided to compromise.  I leaned way forward and supported
some of my weight on my hands and gave a highly motivated heave on one leg.
Sssssssmuck! Out it came.   Now supporting my weight on two hands and one
knee I hauled the other leg out and crawled to what seemed like a firmer
spot.  There I was able to stand up and make my way to the lagoon shore like
a guy walking on eggshells.

When I eventually caught up with the team they were (I told myself) happy to
see me but insisted that I keep my distance.  They said I smelled bad.  I
recounted my adventure and then asked Russ Matthews, our video cameraman, to
come with me.
"Where we going?"
"Back to the lagoon."
"Are you CRAZY?  You just said that you damned near died back there, and now
you want to go BACK?"
"Yeah, we need to document what that lagoon is like, but it's too dangerous
to do alone."
"Swell."

Russ is a stout-hearted fellow and we succeeded in getting the documentation
we needed and by very judicious selection of where we walked we only broke
through a couple times and were able to help each other get unstuck.

However, I can tell you that if there is airplane wreckage in the bottom of
that lagoon, as far as I'm concerned, it can friggin' STAY there.

LTM,
Ric
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 12, 2012, 07:43:00 AM
Bruce, my dream was alittle different. leaning over the rail, looking into the clear blue water as KOK glided slowly, I look down and see-----a wing!!

Then my alarm went off----anothor hot day in south carolina
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 12, 2012, 03:08:47 PM
will they have started work there now ?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 12, 2012, 03:33:26 PM
will they have started work there now ?

From the dailies (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies2.html).  I've inserted local times in bold:

They’re within 100 miles of Nikumaroro. Current ETA, 1:30 a.m. local time [July 12].

When they arrive they will immediately start working the primary search area with the Multi-Beam to map the ocean bottom. Ric will be on the bridge to give local knowledge to the Captain – what is where, what that shadow is, and so on. There will be very little moon (last quarter) and they will be relying heavily on radar and that local knowledge to work the edge.
That will take about two hours;
[3:30 AM]

 then they will do a perimeter sweep of the island to get a general sonar map, arriving back at the primary area at daybreak.
[say, 6:00 AM]

The AUV will go in the water for a four hour test in the search area.
[10:00 AM]

 When it returns for download and to have new programming and batteries installed, the ROV will go in for a two hour test run.
[noon]

 Then the AUV will go back down for the first “real” run of the expedition, eight hours of data collection.
[8:00 PM]

== end excerpt from the dailies ==

I am writing this at 5:30 PM EDT.
If TIGHAR Niku Time (TNT) is GMT -11, that makes it 10:30 AM out there now (on July 12, because they are ignoring the date line).



Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Randy Conrad on July 12, 2012, 03:37:33 PM
So what you're saying Martin is they won't reach the island until late tonight Kansas time?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 12, 2012, 03:48:52 PM
so is Niku -16 hours behind uk ?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 12, 2012, 04:18:30 PM
So what you're saying Martin is they won't reach the island until late tonight Kansas time?

No, they were estimating they would get there roughly 9-10 hours ago.  They should be having lunch about now, looking out at Niku's western shore.  See my post upstream in this thread.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Gary LaPook on July 12, 2012, 04:48:31 PM
so is Niku -16 hours behind uk ?
10 hours behind GMT so 11 hours behind British Summer Time.

gl
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: John Hart on July 12, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Perhaps I can help everyone visualize this. I am not condescending.  This is no kidding how a dumb fighter pilot figures it out.

Grab or visualize a globe with the sun shining on half and the rest is dark. Chris' folks grabbed the Prime Meridian as we all know where the center of the universe is. Well it is the best bitters and single malt scotches. So they got the zero but that means the 180 is on the other side. That is 12 hours (half the globe) away.

Now picture that sunlight moving around the world from Chris' sunrise. Remember the sun is always pushing today away from it. So as midnight approaches the 180 line it is pushing today into tomorrow. From the dateline backwards it is still today. So even though the sunrises at the dateline at the same time, one foot east of it it is rising today and one foot west it is rising tomorrow.

Now since Chris' folks grabbed the zero line they get to set GMT, UTC, as their clock (disregard daylight savings as it confuses the issue). So noon at Chris' house is midnight at the dateline of the new day (tomorrow). Some islands have moved the dateline so they get to be first to have a New Years party.

Now make it easy on yourself. You are on a computer so go try to change the time on the bottom right. It will let you select time zone. Your time zone will tell you what your UTC is plus or minus. US EDT is currently UTC, or GMT,minus 5 hours. Hawaii is minus 10 and the dateline is UTC minus 12. Now KOK is on W side of dateline so it is Friday for them. But if they choose to observe today for most of us that does not change their UTC from 12 hours from Chris. It is 18:45 EDT as I write this. That's 23:45 UTC at Chris' house and 11:45 UTC at Niku.  It is actually Friday morning but they are staying with us in a little bubble of today extending into tomorrow. Hope that helps. JB
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Anthony Allen Roach on July 12, 2012, 05:01:12 PM
As I post this, it is 4:00 p.m. on July 12, 2012, in California.  It's 11:00 p.m. GMT, London is 12:00 a.m.  It's 7:00 p.m. on the East coast of the United States.  It is 1:00 p.m. in Honolulu, Hawaii, on July 12th. It's 11:00 a.m. on Friday, July 13th in Auckland, New Zealand and 9:00 a.m. in Sydney on Friday the 13th.  Nikumaroro is on the other side of the International Dateline, so it is Noon Friday for them locally.  I think they are posting local times and GMT, and using the days of the week and dates for the U.S. side of the International Date Line.  I hope this irons this out.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 12, 2012, 05:05:56 PM
so is Niku -16 hours behind uk ?
11 hours behind GMT so 12 hours behind British Summer Time.

gl

so at present they are preparing, the AUV for it's second two hour stint as we speak
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: John Ousterhout on July 12, 2012, 05:16:45 PM
  I see that actual donations are lagging behind the pledges.  This seemed like a good time to send TIGHAR my pledged $200, and buy a NIKU-VII shirt.  I know what I'd do if I were you...

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Anthony Allen Roach on July 12, 2012, 06:01:34 PM
I blew the time for London.  "Its 11:00 p.m. on July 12th in London, which is on GMT. "  At the time I posted, it was 11:00 p.m. GMT, but midnight in London.  Apparently they've adopted a form of daylight savings time that takes them away from GMT half of the year.  I was hoping because they were British, they would be doing it better than the Americans. ;)  No offense meant to the people who drive on the left side of the road.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 12, 2012, 06:05:52 PM
I think they are posting local times and GMT ...

They are supposed to start that with today's update.

Quote
, and using the days of the week and dates for the U.S. side of the International Date Line.

Yes.  From the dailies (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies2.html):

"Date links refer to U.S. days; Nikumaroro is on the other side of the date line, so it’s tomorrow there, but the ship will keep U.S. dating so that there is slightly less confusion."

"Housekeeping: Beginning with the 12 July update, times will be offered in local and GMT. This should help everyone figure out what time it is for where they are."

 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 12, 2012, 06:50:55 PM
considering there is about 4 British an 1 Scouse member in forum's, i'll accept your blaming the 4 British members haha  :D ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Guillermo on July 12, 2012, 06:57:42 PM
This could be something like 'Nessie'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYYNJIFMNkg
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: John Hart on July 12, 2012, 07:00:36 PM
Hey, I gave them props for the good Bitters and forgot to mention the beetles. Being of Scottish heritage didn't worry about offending them but props for the single malts anyway.

Told everyone to ignore daylight savings time as not all country's, and not all US states, observe it. But the computer trick always works as it knows if it needs to apply it and will show that on your "select time zone" screen.  You can find all the other places on that screen too.

JB
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Gary LaPook on July 12, 2012, 09:34:41 PM
will they have started work there now ?

From the dailies (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies2.html).  I've inserted local times in bold:



I am writing this at 5:30 PM EDT.
If TIGHAR Niku Time (TNT) is GMT -11, that makes it 10:30 AM out there now (on July 12, because they are ignoring the date line).
But looking at the Dailies it is now clear that the KOK is keeping their clocks set to 10 hours behind Zulu, not 11. The Phoenix island keep their clocks set to 13 hours ahead of Zulu, (the same as 11 hours behind Zulu but plus one day of 24 hours) which is 17 hours ahead of EDT. The KOK is also ignoring that Kiribati has chosen to keep its date the same as west of the date line but the KOK is keeping the date as east of the date line, the same as the U.S.  so if they were to go ashore on one of the inhabited islands in the Phoenix's, their calender would be one day lower than those on shore and their clock time would be one hour ahead of the clocks on the island. This puts the KOK time six hours earlier than Eastern Daylight Savings Time. So your example, at 1730 EDT July 12th it was 1130 KOK time on July 12th and 1030 Phoenix Island time on July 13th.

gl
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Gary LaPook on July 12, 2012, 10:54:20 PM
If TIGHAR Niku Time (TNT) is GMT -11, that makes it 10:30 AM out there now (on July 12, because they are ignoring the date line).
But looking at the Dailies it is clear that the KOK is keeping their clocks set to 10 hours behind Zulu, not 11.

That is perfectly clear from the July 12 report (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies2.html), which was not available when I made my calculation.

You will notice, of course, that my proposition began with the word "if."  I couldn't find my source for the idea that they were using UTC -11, so I did not assert it unconditionally.   ::)
I modified my post and added the word "now."

gl
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 13, 2012, 07:34:53 AM
I modified my post and added the word "now."

You da man!  :)

Thanks for helping to get it sorted out.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 13, 2012, 08:04:31 AM
Interesting to note that there is equipment problems on this expedition, as was the case with the previous expedition. Is there something down there that doesn't want to be discovered?
Cue theme music from the twilight zone ;)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 13, 2012, 11:59:35 AM
seemed to work OK in Hawaii-----maybe the spirit of julia---I mean AE, is protesting a bit-----
 :o
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Randy Conrad on July 13, 2012, 04:43:06 PM
WOW!!!! Maybe, their Friday the 13th came early! Then again....the crew should have gone to the island first thing and put sand on their faces as indicated by Ric at the conference in D.C. That seemed to work from previous expeditions. Anyway, like most underwater toys...dealing with electronics, technology, and salt water...you're bound to have a few glitches and gremlins now and then. Anyway, I just read my facebook posts and found out our wonderful Thomas King has changed his profile picture. And to think we've been searching for so long for this missing skull and bones for quite some time. Anyway, I had to laugh at his sense of humor! I'm sure the crew could use a good laugh after the first day of misfires per say. Anyway, in the past couple of days I've wondered if anyone has taken note of the little things that Amelia had in her possession at the time of her world flight. In one of the telegrams as indicated by the Purdue collection, it mentions that they traveled light. In one of the youtube videos it does indicate that she had only one briefcase (which was completely full) and occasionally she wore glasses. Does anyone else know what her and Fred had with them on that flight? We know she had fuel cans! What did they store their drinking water in? We know that she must have had luggage...but how much did she carry on board? Did they update their inventory list before they left Lae? Did they have any kind of flare system with them on the plane? How much rope did they have? Questions, that I'd like to hear from most of you on!!!

Also, on a serious note... If Fred had been drinking on the flight and they landed the plane...and the water supply ran out and he ran out of alcohol...what kind of life expectancy is there for someone like that, and does he fall prey to other things such as rubbing alcohol or other chemicals to supplement his drinking binge?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 13, 2012, 05:00:18 PM
Randy you will find all your answers in previous forum topics, all 15 pages of them

everything you have asked, has been answered in general discussions

I think  :-\

anyways have any of you's been following this story of late ?  http://www.plmk.com/content/baltic-sea-underwater-mushroom-shaped-object-weird
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 13, 2012, 07:39:11 PM
It's the old 'millennium falcon' story again Richie. Chewbacca denies it but, we know better.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 13, 2012, 08:18:01 PM
Strewth, nearly lost the AUV!
Check out the latest daily report.
There is definitely something which doesn't want to be discovered!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 13, 2012, 08:24:46 PM
Sounds as though that reef face/seamount is as unfriendly as we thought it was. :-\
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Anthony Allen Roach on July 13, 2012, 08:41:54 PM
My hands got sweaty reading that last daily.  I was terrified the whole time that they had lost the AUV.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on July 14, 2012, 03:14:10 AM


Also, on a serious note... If Fred had been drinking on the flight and they landed the plane...and the water supply ran out and he ran out of alcohol...what kind of life expectancy is there for someone like that, and does he fall prey to other things such as rubbing alcohol or other chemicals to supplement his drinking binge?

Randy,
please notice:
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/FAQs/noonan.htm (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/FAQs/noonan.htm)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 14, 2012, 06:39:04 AM
Wonder why no updates today :(
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 14, 2012, 07:09:22 AM
Wonder why no updates today :(
There are.  Go to the newly-created "Week 3 (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies3.html)" page to read about freaky Friday the 13th.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 14, 2012, 09:22:44 AM
[iThanks bruce  8)


An they have found an  object cat 2, 6 metres by 2 metres wide

With a bit of look on closer inspection it may look like this

We can hope anyway
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 14, 2012, 09:39:10 AM
Richie, we don't know the exact location of the object on the reef face, yet. The size quoted may well indicate it as being a chunk of the Norwich City but, hopefully not. It's interesting to see how the AUV and ROV work in partnership, the AUV pinpointing WHERE to look and the ROV doing the looking (and rescuing). Plus the hard work of the teams in getting the kit working despite the odd hiccup or two.
From the specifications of both the AUV and ROV I can only imagine the amount and quality of the data collected so far, not forgetting the expertise of the teams running them.
Slow and steady does it.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 14, 2012, 10:07:05 AM
Seem's luck is on there side managing to get AUV free
 
Let's hope there is no more accidents. 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 14, 2012, 02:00:05 PM
Obviously, yesterday wasnt the best day. But---they learned to improvise. Gee---if Andrew were there, he could have dove down and freed the AUV, AND done a visual on the target! I know I know-----but what the hell ---I can dream --for Andrew---right?
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on July 14, 2012, 02:03:43 PM
Free diving from the surface, 1600 ft, no problem!  Just like those polynesian pearl divers.....

Adapt and overcome, that is the name of the game when visiting Nikumaroro.

Andrew
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 15, 2012, 02:07:38 AM
Daily report 14th July. Looks promising when you hear the people who use and live with the kit say positive things about the data they are collecting.
Interpreting what you are looking at is a two way process. Looking at rocks and coral and trying to identify people stuff works the other way around as well, we do it all the time in real life without even realizing it. As an example when you are in the Market for a new car you might try to visualize what it would look like if it was a different color, had 5 doors as opposed to 3 etc... Or if the house had different window styles, a conservatory, an extension etc...
No one in their right mind would try to visualize what a car or house would look like after 70+ years of coral growth, erosion and distribution had taken their toll. That's what makes it hard to visualize and accept.
So far so good.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on July 15, 2012, 03:53:05 AM
If the Electra is down there, wouldn't it be in one piece? Or maybe three big pieces, wings and fuselage? Why should there be many small parts? Yes, I assume some small parts, (landing gear, etc.), but also some big parts, or one big electra barely demaged.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Monty Fowler on July 15, 2012, 09:06:46 AM
Just a gentle reminder to all of us who are eagerly following the Daily Updates with fingers crossed - this is NOT free. TIGHAR has NOT raised all of the money it needs to pay for all of this.

I got paid on Friday. My latest donation check to TIGHAR went out the same day. If you believe in the Niku hypothesis, it's time to pony up some $$$$$. Talk is cheap, answers ain't.

LTM, who trys to pick the winning ponies,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 15, 2012, 09:19:26 AM
I doubt very much if it would be in one piece Oskar. Probably a combination of your other two choices, big pieces, small, pieces and small parts. Even tourist, bottom of blue lagoon aircraft wrecks have bits broken off and parts scattered about. The Niku reef slope/seamount is causing problems with the kit being deployed on this expedition, a good indication of how inhospitable it is, 45 to 90 degree slope.
The scenario is that the plane was swept off of the reef flat and got chewed up on its way down. Add to that the erosion and corrosion of parts over the years, especially those that hold other parts together, once they go the parts they hold together will obey gravity and head down the slope. Heavy gear like engines will place a considerable strain on decaying superstructure especially significant on a steep slope.
Electra is the hope but, at this stage let's just say aircraft wreckage for now and, remember planes are constructed to be strong and light weight where as cargo ships are built to be strong and, well, strong.
IMHO of course
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 15, 2012, 09:20:20 AM
If the Electra is down there, wouldn't it be in one piece? Or maybe three big pieces, wings and fuselage? Why should there be many small parts? Yes, I assume some small parts, (landing gear, etc.), but also some big parts, or one big electra barely damaged.

As you note, there are anecdotes and maybe a picture of parts: aluminum inlay, aluminum in the village, aluminum pieces picked up by TIGHAR, the Bevington object.

We know that storm surges can be quite destructive.

We know that improbabilities are different from impossibilities--strange things do happen.

Right now, it is just a matter of making guesses and placing bets.  TIGHAR is betting that there could be identifiable pieces in the area it is searching; others bet otherwise.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 15, 2012, 09:44:18 AM
A spur and groove reef face, shallow part, hence the divers and, not verey steep at all. Not the sort of place that light weight aluminium construction would tend to thrive in IMHO
http://youtu.be/Na4dMzVp-aY (http://youtu.be/Na4dMzVp-aY)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 15, 2012, 11:50:42 AM
I too think it is in several larger pieces, then much smaller ones that have drifted. Wings, fuse, both tails and horizontals are most likely in separate pieces, and scattered. The panels, and attaching skins have probably migrated elsewhere. I still hope there is enough of a wing to show part of the N number. If Ric finds that----I'll eat a steak in his honor!
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on July 15, 2012, 12:19:19 PM
Well, I think, the best "smoking gun" would be a WASP. An engine will be found easier than anything else. Do you agree?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 15, 2012, 12:42:38 PM
am looking forward to tomorrow's update, as we should find out if any man made objects have been picked up by AUV on slope under Nessie  :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 15, 2012, 12:51:48 PM
Well, I think, the best "smoking gun" would be a WASP. An engine will be found easier than anything else. Do you agree?

Spot on Oskar an engine would do nicely, even one in a hundred bits.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 15, 2012, 01:04:25 PM
am looking forward to tomorrow's update, as we should find out if any man made objects have been picked up by AUV on slope under Nessie  :)

1. They are not picking anything up on this expedition.

2. They are most unlikely to disclose any details to the public until Discovery clears them to.  Big money is at stake.  Discovery paid the piper and gets to call the tune. (Other major sponsors would probably get word of results prior to a public announcement.)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 15, 2012, 01:17:18 PM
That's the way it should be Marty, plus the wishes of the Republic of Kiribati. There will be plenty to do later.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 15, 2012, 02:11:44 PM
sorry Marty i meant picked up in the sense "picked up on sonar like the other objects"

my fault i should have been more specific on what i meant or worded it better  ::)

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 15, 2012, 02:22:04 PM
am looking forward to tomorrow's update, as we should find out if any man made objects have been picked up by AUV on slope under Nessie  :)

1. They are not picking anything up on this expedition.

2. They are most unlikely to disclose any details to the public until Discovery clears them to.  Big money is at stake.  Discovery paid the piper and gets to call the tune. (Other major sponsors would probably get word of results prior to a public announcement.)

In all honesty Marty

I have been surprised by how much data/info we have been told about.

Also can you tell me what category 2 is ?

I have an idea, However would like it clarified   :)   
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 15, 2012, 03:31:19 PM
This will give you some idea Richie. The AUV contact is assessed using a set of criteria and the reults given a grading of 1 to 5. Something of a similar nature will be used on this expedition...
http://searchforamelia.org/contact-2 (http://searchforamelia.org/contact-2)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 15, 2012, 03:38:49 PM
Thank's Jeff  :)

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: John Balderston on July 15, 2012, 04:13:23 PM
A spur and groove reef face, shallow part, hence the divers and, not verey steep at all. Not the sort of place that light weight aluminium construction would tend to thrive in IMHO
http://youtu.be/Na4dMzVp-aY (http://youtu.be/Na4dMzVp-aY)

JVH, the spur and groove reef description in the video is interesting - thanks for sharing.  Not being an expert in any of the disciplines that go into it (oceanography, marine bio, hydrodynamics), I imagined reefs would be built by the reverse of erosion (venturi effect) - raised geography or channels cause increased water speed in local area, decreasing the probability that micro-organisms attach there, and increasing the chance they attach elsewhere, exascerbating the effect, etc.  Anyway, really rugged environment for anything fragile to survive, that's for sure! -jb
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 15, 2012, 04:25:32 PM
Also can you tell me what category 2 is ?

"Possible artifact--worth examining with the ROV."

Of course, the artifact in question could come from fishing boats, the Norwich City, garbage dumps, Japan's Tsunami, etc.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 16, 2012, 06:35:48 AM
I think I posted something like this before, but seems to me that Niku's reef slope 'might' look something like this. Kauai coastline----but if Niku looks anything like this, it might be tough going.
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Anthony Allen Roach on July 16, 2012, 08:54:25 AM
I'm not a geologist, but my understanding of coral atoll formation is as follows:  At some time in the geologic past, an underwater volcano grow from the ocean floor, and broke through the ocean's surface.  The volcano goes extinct, and subsides.  As it subsides, a fringing reef develops on its sides.  So it seems to me that unlike the sea floor in coastal waters that gradually slopes to a continental slope, the side of the reef is very steep, built up on the side of an extinct volcano that is also steep.  I think that steepness affects the ability of ships to anchor off the coral reefs.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 16, 2012, 09:30:01 AM
That's about right Anthony. Nikumaroro is the top of a seamount...
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seamount (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seamount)

It is still referred to as the Gardner seamount...

 http://earthref.org/cgi-bin/sc-s2-list.cgi?database_name=sc&search_start=main&selected_smnt_id=65 (http://earthref.org/cgi-bin/sc-s2-list.cgi?database_name=sc&search_start=main&selected_smnt_id=65)

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Leon R White on July 16, 2012, 12:55:03 PM
Is there any stated process or protocol that Ric has  planned regarding announcements of a find, or of no find?  Are they going to have discovery announce it first? will they do that while still out on the expedition? is it all going to be held til they return to hawaii? 
I've got to stock up on tranquilizers so any planning help would be appreciated.

Leon
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 16, 2012, 12:55:52 PM
they need to find that rope and wire  :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 16, 2012, 01:02:37 PM
hard to say Leon

Ric has been very forthcoming with information so far

however he has said no man made objects have been found in primary search area

but then if he said there was man made objects worth a second look, then the media would go in overdrive as well as ourselves

 :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 16, 2012, 01:06:41 PM
The main sponsors get priority Leon and, that's how it should be. They put a lot of money and trust in Tighar and, I'm ok with that aspect, no problem.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Leon R White on July 16, 2012, 01:20:52 PM
great. I understand the sponsors get priority.  Is there a plan that has been discussed openly?

If the plane is not found on this trip, what are the chances there will be any more work on this theory? And what would that work be, do you think?

Leon

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 16, 2012, 02:15:36 PM
it won't be the end of the theory

Tighar will have to re evaluate the evidence and try finding new smoking gun evidence on land 

however i believe it won't come to that  :-X
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Anthony Allen Roach on July 16, 2012, 02:49:55 PM
It seems to me that it may be entirely possible that the Electra or remnants may be further out in deeper water.  In my naval architecture class, we used to tinker around with ship models in the wave tanks.  We never experimented with aircraft.  It seems to me that a plane that can glide in the air will also have a glide path in the water as it sinks and comes to rest.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 16, 2012, 02:57:04 PM
And Jeff---its deeper than we have video footage for!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 16, 2012, 03:26:26 PM
great. I understand the sponsors get priority.  Is there a plan that has been discussed openly?

Yes.  The plan is for the Discovery Channel to decide what gets published when.

They purchased the rights to the story.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Rafael Krasnodebski on July 16, 2012, 03:46:42 PM
If it is good news, can't we even get a hint ... like a smiley face from Ric? The suspense is doing my head in  :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Michael Calvin Powell on July 16, 2012, 03:47:39 PM
It seems to me that it may be entirely possible that the Electra or remnants may be further out in deeper water.  In my naval architecture class, we used to tinker around with ship models in the wave tanks.  We never experimented with aircraft.  It seems to me that a plane that can glide in the air will also have a glide path in the water as it sinks and comes to rest.

Actually, I've always thought there is a fair chance that most of the plane would be off shore by a good ways.  Those empty fuel tanks mean that the plane was extremely bouyant.  If a storm washed it out to sea then it may have floated a good ways off.  That doesn't fit with the recollection of settlers of airplane wreckage but consider this from the Ameliapedia:

Buoyancy of NR16020
"The opinon of supposed experts at the time was that, with all those empty fuel tanks, the Electra would float 'indefinitely.' We actually had some calculations run by Oceaneering International in 1991. There were 12 individual fuel tanks aboard NR16020 – three in each wing and six in the cabin. If all the tanks were empty and intact, the 7,000 lb (empty weight) airplane would be 1,200 pounds buoyant. Damage to one, or even all, of the tanks in one wing should not be sufficient to sink the airplane."

Of course the storm could batter the plane so much that the tanks would no longer be airtight but it still seems to be that it might float a good distance away from the reef - just hopefully leaving debris behind.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Randy Conrad on July 16, 2012, 04:26:37 PM
As mentioned in the past couple of dailies, Ric keeps talking about how steep the reef face is and how treacherous it has been to maneuver stuff around! With the reef face that steep and treacherous, has there been any indication that at any time there might have been any seismic activity to suggest movement of corral and debris. Let's say for example that indeed the plane did fall off the reef's edge and down below...Is there any sign that boulders and rocks of corral could have buried the Electra or parts of the plane? Also, Ric at the conference Jeff, Irv, Tom, and I noticed that on the aluminum plane piece that you had on exhibit. Noticed that the small rivet holes appeared to be normal. As if they were never used. But, also appeared that the rivets could have possibly been pushed out by some means of force. In most scenarios a push or a kick on aluminum or tin usually tears things up. So the question I have is...what is the pressure like at the depths you guys are searching...and is it possible that pressure could blow a plane apart at those depths. Especially the Electra?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: don hirth on July 16, 2012, 05:26:55 PM
Well, I think, the best "smoking gun" would be a WASP. An engine will be found easier than anything else. Do you agree?
Yes, Oskar. (Best bets) engine/s, cockpit, front wheels, 'perhaps' a substantial
section of the fuse. 'skeleton.'
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 16, 2012, 06:09:14 PM
if I can indluge for a moment--Guys dont make me stand in a corner over this !!!
Ok---we know the original ROV footage was somewhere around 800 feet. Richie, Jeff V H, and alot of others have poured over this and 'found' some interesting things. From what I gather from the dailies, The AUV & ROV are around 1200, and just finding parts of the shipwreck. So---I'm guessing---MY OPINION ONLY, is that they have targeted those things that Richie and Jeff spotted, and are going back to them, or they didnt find them, or---3rd possibility is they aint saying. My hope would be option 3 (aint saying), so we can have the big reveal and a party.
The one good thing about all of this is that the Kiribati Govt will get a really good idea of the reef slope around Niku, and have documented stuff thats there. Hazards to navigation and all that stuff.
Hearing that the NC larger parts are around 1200 is very interesting, and plays into the idea I had about the reef slope looking like the Napali Coastline of Hawaii, or the north shore of Molakai. 3-4000 feet almost vertical, with crevasses and outcroppings. It will be very interesting to see the footage that Discovery releases. I hope for history's sake, that the include  a bit on the Norwich City, to give some background on what we are going to see.

Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 16, 2012, 08:18:04 PM
We are learning alot from the underwater search. First lesson, nothing is written in stone, ahh coral. Even the best in the business have issues. WE knew it was going to be tough, but WOW!
Glad they have spares on board, or this could get expensive in a big hurry. I bet Ric is sweating bullets everytime the remotes go in the water. Hang in there Ric---you are closer than you think.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 17, 2012, 12:51:58 AM
I bet. target 1 has two rope wire laying on it weather it be electra or norwich city wreckage
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on July 17, 2012, 05:46:31 AM
It is interesting to note that not everything gets mentioned in the TIGHAR Daily Reports.

Check this tidbit from the KOK log found at http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/UMC/Reports/KOKreport.htm (http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/UMC/Reports/KOKreport.htm)


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
DAILY REPORT FOR SATURDAY, JULY 14, 2012

KOK 12-07, TIGHAR
POSITION: LAT: 04-39.4 S//LONG: 174-33.8 W MILES RUN: 0 NM//
TOTAL MILES RUN: 1844 NM ON STATION NIKUMARORO ISLAND

COMMENTS: ON STATION NIKUMARORO IS.
THEY GOT THE AUV UP AND RUNNING. CONDUCTED AUV SURVEY ALL
NIGHT ,RECOVERED AUV 0800 THIS MORNING. DIVING ROV TODAY.
YESTERDAY AFTER AUV RECOVERY, LITHIUM BATTERY BOX WAS SMOKING,
FRIED CIRCUIT BOARD, REPLACED WITH NEW AND OPERATIONS ARE
GOING BETTER. 0900 START ROV SURVEY.  SHIP AND CREW DOING FINE.
>>>>>>>>>
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 17, 2012, 05:57:39 AM
They are not having an easy time for sure. The conditions on the reef face are even worse than I imagined, and I have always thought it was bad but, even this comes as a surprise.
It is becoming clear that this is no place for an aircraft to rest in peace. Full marks for the teams in keeping the equipment up and running in such a hostile environment. The hand printed sign 'worst environment imaginable' sounds like an understatement.

IMHO of course
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 17, 2012, 06:46:08 AM
Kudos for the crew and staff of Phoenix for getting things up and running.  Very professionally done from what I read.
Thanks andrew for the tidbits---interesting that they would be having equipment issues, other than the thether on the ROV. I can certainly understand that. but smoking batteries on the AUV? HUM---Perhaps the Electra doesnt want to be found. 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 17, 2012, 02:22:16 PM
how long is left of expedition ?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: John Balderston on July 17, 2012, 05:02:44 PM
how long is left of expedition ?

Richie, the expedition itinerary gives the last search day as 19 Jul(http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7expedition.html).  However, don't know if the entire itinerary moved a day to the right due to delayed departure from Honolulu.

Like everybody else I'm chomping at the bit to hear some news. . .  :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Zach Reed on July 17, 2012, 09:23:42 PM
2200 feet, that's sure deep...are they looking for the Electra at that depth, or is this a subplot for Discovery?

DC really can't get anything but positive returns on their investment: you have Earhart, you have the Norwich City (and with the crash report, a fascinating story in its own right), the experience of the settlements in the waning days of British colonialism, the flora and fauna of a South Sea isle, and then of course neato search equipment to boot.

This "obscure" little island has quite a story going for itself...
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 17, 2012, 09:38:20 PM
Enough material for a film plot Zach. The island appears to be a benign innocent looking tropical paradise, the bit above the surface anyway. The bit beneath the surface is a different story. Will be lucky to get away without losing any of the kit.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 17, 2012, 10:47:39 PM
Just read today's daily report.
They had to allocate ROV time to rescue the AUV again.
Really cool to see the picture of the island with the K-O-K  off shore.

It was probably already mentioned but since sea level is about 6" higher since 1937, maybe the supposed landing area could have been longer then. Even in a different place that is not as clear now. Not forgetting the Bevington photo or wreckage, or witness to a wreck...just saying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_sea_level_rise

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on July 18, 2012, 02:00:19 AM
I just ran across this promo bit on the Discovery channel site

http://dsc.discovery.com/show-news/amelia-earhart-search-continues.html (http://dsc.discovery.com/show-news/amelia-earhart-search-continues.html)

And they have some video of the expedition before they left Hawaii that shows the AUV and ROV being tested.

http://news.discovery.com/videos/history-amelia-earhart-search-continues.html (http://news.discovery.com/videos/history-amelia-earhart-search-continues.html)

I note that the end of the video has text that says "Stay tuned for Discovery Channel's exciting Amelia Earhart special Coming in August 2012"

I think that is a very ambitious timeline if they are going to incorporate video from the current expedition, but I hope they can deliver.

Andrew
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 18, 2012, 05:15:31 AM
Well----seems yesterdays expedition activities got everyone's heart rates elevated! Bet Phoenix wasnt prepared for this, as no one else was. Think out of the box. Wonder if 2900 feet is the bottom, or if it is just a ledge? Man, a deep dive submirsible with windows would be nice--
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Leon R White on July 18, 2012, 07:28:12 AM
For any folks around then:  Was Niku VI like this, with all the equipment problems and jury rigging solutions for the AUV?  I was just wondering what percentage of time was spent in VI with equipment problems/opportunities compared to VII.

And what is the story with the AUV on VI?  It's use was limited to the lagoon?

Any info would be welcome.
-Leon
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 18, 2012, 08:40:28 AM
leon, I dont recall these kinds of issues. I know they lost a side scan, or something on one of the searches. But what we know NOW about the reef slope, its no wonder that things havent gone quite to plan. I figured the multi-bean from the KOK would have given a better profile of stuff. Guess I misread what they were telling us in DC.
Here's hopeing nothing else goes wrong.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on July 18, 2012, 09:15:50 AM
There was a towed sonar fish lost in one of the early expeditions, 1999 or so.  Location was south of the current search box on the ridge that falls away to the west.

During Niku VI, all the AUV work was in the lagoon.  The AUV did have some difficulty when it came up against some of the coral heads, but it usually just backed up and tried to go around.  Walt or John Clauss would know better, but I think it always managed to come home after the mission.  Maybe it had to get rescued once, I can't remember.  I don't think we had any technical issues with the unit itself - burning circuit boards and the like.  We were able to keep it charged with the solar powered "Gobi Pack" battery suitcases we had with us.

The lagoon is only 15 ft deep, and the AUV was operating just below the surface, so the difficulty of searching, staying out of trouble, and of recovery wasn't quite like what we're seeing on this search.

Unfortunate that it is proving so difficult.

amck
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Ingo Prangenberg on July 18, 2012, 12:27:06 PM
Ric, if your reading this, I'll trade you my entire collection or rare 1950's German beer coasters for just one teeny-tiny image of the "suspected possible target" that the AUV picked up! It doesn't even have to be color, I'll settle for black and white.

With an offer like that, I'm sure you cannot resist. I'll sit right here and wait for your response....

 :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 18, 2012, 01:54:17 PM
One thing's for sure, the difficulty's they are having now

Probably means they won't be able to retrieve any artifacts in future expeditions  :(

But we live in hope  :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 18, 2012, 02:33:59 PM
Ingo---you might be waiting awhile. might want to eat lunch first!. Boy it would be nice though.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 18, 2012, 02:40:51 PM
Richie---as much as I hate to admit it, you may be right. Seems to be very unforgiving territory. If the AUV is having issues, and the tethered ROV is having similar issues with the cables, then I'm sensing that recovering of anything might be a lost cause. On the floor, might be a different story, but I dont know what that looks like. Ric does. Certainly along the slope with its crevasses and coral outcroppings would be hazardous and difficult for salvage or artifact recovery.
Lets hope for right now, the we get some good pics of good targets, see some identifiable parts.
Without loosing any assets.
Be safe everyone--
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 18, 2012, 02:49:20 PM
My thoughts exactly Tom

However if anyone can pull this off, It's Ric  :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: don hirth on July 18, 2012, 05:16:34 PM
'Never like taking the negative track, but...........unless a mini-miracle takes place in the
next 4 - 5 days, this ex. is likely to be somewhat of a failure. Too many glitches with the rovers,
too much time wasted. We need a 'deep pockets' benefactor willing to pony up for a
manned underwater craft having more sophistication and control while in that environment.
My belief is that in lieu of this 'miracle', an all inclusive vessel (still photog., video WITH retrieving
claws, extensive operating power, etc.) is a MUST for any future expeditions. Time has already
been a formidable enemy regarding identification and retrieval and at roughly 2 - 3 yr. intervals
between expeditions, will become more so.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 18, 2012, 05:26:35 PM
I expect they will be used to seeing images like this one. This is at only 100 metres but, look at the slope on the reef.
Not the Gardner seamount by the way.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 18, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
They are scheduled to depart tomorrow, on the 19th per the original schedule. They mentioned the team had flights to catch so I think they may follow the schedule.
I keep checking to see if the daily update for the 18th is uploaded. I hope the ROV got in some good time at it's primary job.

 This is better than the superbowl. I'm pulling for the Tighars.

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Walter Runck on July 18, 2012, 07:10:11 PM
'Never like taking the negative track, but...........unless a mini-miracle takes place in the
next 4 - 5 days, this ex. is likely to be somewhat of a failure. Too many glitches with the rovers,
too much time wasted.

Hmmm.  At this point and from where I'm sitting, I can't tell the difference between a strikeout and a home run.  If they found something, I wouldn't expect to know about it yet.  Even if they thought they hadn't found anything yet, they certainly will be coming home with data that may yield results during future examination.  It's premature to make any sort of conclusion now, so go ahead and let your imagination run wild. 

The fun speculation is what they would be doing if they had found something and had to vamp for time until public release of the discovery.  How would you fill that void?  A red herring here, some equipment trouble there, a little expedition to the island in between.  Maybe a day or two without any news? 

The point is that we don't know what is happening out there.  A known unknown.  But maybe something special behind the curtain.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 18, 2012, 07:31:08 PM
All of the above is true. Many problems. I had actually hoped that there was going to be deep dive submirsibles on this trip, but after talking to Ric in DC, found out otherwise. I understand the reasoning, but coming up with the Large $$$$$ its going to take to go back is going to be tough. UNLESS, there is an understanding with Discovery in place. Kinda doubt it.
Hope I'm not being negative here guys, but we really need something to perk us up.
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Zach Reed on July 18, 2012, 09:34:23 PM
Regarding the pic...just think how long it must have taken to "build".

Regarding Earhart...I'm sure there's an Electra engine somewhere off that island. Maybe nothing else at this point, but at least the engines.

I'll also toss this out there as idle musing: I've always subscribed to the General Theory posed by TIGHAR, but my own "runner-up" idea was that they simply crash landed on the NE side, near the Seven Site itself. There is no clear motivator for the two or three mile walk from W to NE...and besides, all the items found at the Seven Site could have easily washed up there. I bring that up not to rehash old discussions, but because an idea just occurred to me that sort of blends the two theories.

Let's say they crash landed on the west side, Noonan dies soon after, Earhart sends radio signals for three days, before a storm knocks off small pieces of the plane (pieces that would later be scavenged and found in the village), snaps the landing gear, and pulls the now water-logged plane into deep, welling water just outside the reef. The storm's powerful current, coming from the southwest, batters the Electra alongside the reef and towards the north side of the island, where it finally settles in deep water just off the reef. The next day Earhart, anxiously looking for signs of her plane and any surviving equipment, combs the north beach. Slowly, one by one she finds the grenadine jug, the navigator's box, and the broken lense in the surf...she keeps going, and by the time she nears the eastern tip of the island, she realizes she's not going to find anything more. Exhausted, very dehydrated, weak with hunger, and arms half-full, she simply stops in her tracks, spending her final handful of days at what is now known as the Seven Site.

That's a slight variation on the General Theory, but uses all the pieces we already know: snagged landing gear, radio signals, storm, pieces in the village, and the materials at the Seven Site. I guess the question is whether it's plausible that storm waves would push an object to the north.

In any case, there's an engine out there somewhere...hopefully they'll find it!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on July 19, 2012, 12:29:10 AM
Don Hirth says:

"Never like taking the negative track, but...........unless a mini-miracle takes place in the
next 4 - 5 days, this ex. is likely to be somewhat of a failure. Too many glitches with the rovers,
too much time wasted. "

It is tempting to feel that unless we come up with the smoking gun, the expedition is a "failure", but that is faulty thinking.  In a scientific exploration, all we can do is work up a hypothesis, test it, learn from what doesn't work, and figure out how to re-test it.  We're learning that the environment there is more challenging than we expected, and we may not have the right tools. The right tools may not exist for that matter.  You can hope for the "home run" but more likely than not, as in this project, progress is incremental. 

Believe me, we've left Nikumaroro many times feeling skunked, only to figure out after the fact through analysis of our work there that we  collected some very interesting artifacts.  We don't know what data the AUV and ROV are collecting, and while they are trying to look at it now on board, something interesting may not come out until further analysis months from now.

It is all part of the process of discovery and we have to accept when things go frustratingly slow.  No expedition is a failure as we always come back with more information than we went out there with. 

Eventually the puzzle will be filled in, but if you think about it, working a puzzle is always more fun than after it is completed.

Andrew
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Leon R White on July 19, 2012, 06:46:48 AM
Andrew,
I want to believe ...  but when you have as much expertise etc. (in the public's eye), and they fail to find what they were looking for, it will appear to have failed.  And unless there is a sugar daddy for TIGHAR, raising money to come back again is iffy.
There are two unwelcome comparisons - the boy who cried wolf, and mel brooks 'the producers.' The home run is what we should all be hoping for.  The team has been to the island before, ROV'd some areas, and had the AUV there. The underwater environment shouldn't be that unknown, the argument might go.  The only theory that could be left is that the stuff is farther out in deeper water, that needs a deeper ROV. That doesn't fit the current hypothesis, and presumes all 'near-reef' areas have been ruled out. OR you have to come back with different gear and re-do the inner reef areas. That approach would depend upon the 'we ran out of time' reason, so often used in discovery exploration shows.

I guess my pessimism is showing.  I keep trying to hold the right thought, but the daily reports are killing me. 
You guys that have been there and been around here much longer then I have and I'll support your notions, but I've read the WAITT institute stuff, and their "helped mankind by mapping the bottom" consolation prize doesn't mean much when they were looking for the plane.
Well, we camel in the cloud amatures are just that - amatures. So forgive us for our desperation.

L
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on July 19, 2012, 08:06:56 AM
I totally understand what you are saying, it isn't like I won't be disappointed either. 

Every time I've left the island, the feeling is we ran out of time.  If only we had more time.  Its a heart breaking feeling.

I've often wondered if I or anybody will ever go back there with regard to this project.  Every time something turns up to sustain the momentum and get us back there.  I think it is because we've got the right place.

The aircraft is out there somewhere, we just have to look in the right place with the right tools.  May take a few tries to get the formula right but we have to start somewhere.

Hopefully, the search will still turn up something.  Many times on past expeditions something was found on the last day that turned out to be important.  I've got my fingers crossed.

Andrew
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Paul R Titus on July 19, 2012, 09:30:28 AM
Well said, Jeff; sometimes the scientific method takes time.....look how long it took them to find the Higgs bosun!!  :D

And, as I just posted in "Stills from ROV" thread, even Titanic wasn't found with sonar; they discovered it "mowing the lawn" visually. So hang in there everyone!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: John Balderston on July 19, 2012, 10:21:26 AM
So hang in there everyone!

Well said Paul!  Look at the enhanced Bevington photo and tantilizing hints in the 2010 ROV clips, and think of the planning and preparation that certainly went into Niku VII.  Would the expedition team conceivably come back empty-handed?  And think of scientific "burdon of proof" as well as media team-member's requirements.  Will big news be disclosed in expedition team daily reports?   Come on - big news is certainly coming.  We've waited 75 years for this - let's have a little faith!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 19, 2012, 11:37:28 AM
Jeff and others---well said. Perked me up quite a bit!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 19, 2012, 11:49:50 AM
The ROV on this mission may yet turn out to be the ace in the pack.
The spec' is a step up from the previous expeditions ROV which, although fairly basic in comparison, did quite a remarkable job.
Here's the spec for the TRV-005 which it all hangs on now?
http://www.ssirovs.com/images/stories/documents/TRV_005_Specs.pdf  (http://www.ssirovs.com/images/stories/documents/TRV_005_Specs.pdf)



Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Rafael Krasnodebski on July 19, 2012, 12:15:30 PM
Some pretty depressing stuff on here ... what is it you American types say? "It's not over 'til the fat lady sings". Perk up folks. We're all gunning for you!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 19, 2012, 12:56:04 PM
yep----no delayed gratification here----want it yesterday!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 19, 2012, 01:01:46 PM
Notice how the Gardner seamount wants to grab hold of and keep anything that strays too close to it (the AUV). It doesn't want to give up its secrets easily either :(
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 19, 2012, 01:28:04 PM
or is it Julia in another form? :o
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Gus Rubio on July 19, 2012, 02:50:30 PM
I too am fighting disappointment, but as the pros here have said, it's not necessarily what they find while they're out there, it's what they learn after reviewing all the video and data.  that said, hopefully they will extend the mission a day or two, that could be all it takes to catch something on video that cracks the coconut.  Despite the lack of a "Eureka!" find, I can almost feel it, there's something down there, waiting to be found.  Such victories are sweeter when they cost you.

Speaking of cost, I'll tell you something: if I were to win a stupid amount of money in the lottery, like that half-billion-dollar jackpot or whatever it was recently, you better believe I'd throw a couple mil at the Electra search.  I'll let all y'all know when that happens.   :P

One upshot on this outing for the crew- no crabs!  Am I right folks?   :D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Dave Potratz on July 19, 2012, 06:46:51 PM
Quote
One upshot on this outing for the crew- no crabs!  Am I right folks?
   
...probably have to ask Ric and Party after their shore trip.   I wonder how far they got.


Folks,  anybody baseball fans out there?  No, no, not thread drift, here!

If I may, it's just the point that, and i'm not being trite, but as any ball player will tell you, "you got to stay within yourself"...

In other words, there can be no doubt that Niku VII are doing the very best they can in an entirely unique environment and purpose.  They're doing just as THEIR training and resolve call upon them...no less...perhaps a lot more.

I believe that success will result from their efforts.

I look forward to that with fascination.

Er, to be honest, the tuffest thing for ME right now is to "stay within MYself"... when all i'm doing is just tagging along on the adventure.   8)

LTM, who always applauded the Quest.

dp
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 19, 2012, 07:08:46 PM
Quote
One upshot on this outing for the crew- no crabs!  Am I right folks?
   
...probably have to ask Ric and Party after their shore trip.   I wonder how far they got.


Folks,  anybody baseball fans out there?  No, no, not thread drift, here!

If I may, it's just the point that, and i'm not being trite, but as any ball player will tell you, "you got to stay within yourself"...

In other words, there can be no doubt that Niku VII are doing the very best they can in an entirely unique environment and purpose.  They're doing just as THEIR training and resolve call upon them...no less...perhaps a lot more.

I believe that success will result from their efforts.

I look forward to that with fascination.

Er, to be honest, the tuffest thing for ME right now is to "stay within MYself"... when all i'm doing is just tagging along on the adventure.   8)

LTM, who always applauded the Quest.

dp

None of us are on that ship apart from Ric so were all tagging along so to speak

so say it how you see it ?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 19, 2012, 08:57:10 PM
The latest report puts the ROV at the same depth as the previous expedition and, will search the ledge located at this depth. It's the ledge that hung up the Norwich City aft section so, it's a good 'catchers mitt'. That's good news ???
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 19, 2012, 10:34:59 PM
A smoking gun dosn't tell the whole story just look at the Edwardian era pillaging of royal tombs in Egypt.

Actually, to be pedantic, the wholesale pillaging began in ancient Egypt. So much so that the Pharaoh Ramesses XI (1107 BC to 1078 BC) ordered that the surviving mummies of the pharaohs be gathered up and reburied in two separate burial chambers. The usual post burial practice in ancient Egypt was for the locals to wait a couple of months and then tunnel in and grab as much as they could to be melted down. It seems that the Pharaoh's devout subjects were less concerned about his afterlife and more concerned with the gold.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 20, 2012, 05:44:49 AM
A smoking gun dosn't tell the whole story just look at the Edwardian era pillaging of royal tombs in Egypt.

Actually, to be pedantic, the wholesale pillaging began in ancient Egypt. So much so that the Pharaoh Ramesses XI (1107 BC to 1078 BC) ordered ...grab as much as they could to be melted down. It seems that the Pharaoh's devout subjects were less concerned about his afterlife and more concerned with the gold.

I had no idea - thanks for that, Malcolm! 

All this time I've labored under some elementary notion that the ancients were solumn and true to their dead kings, etc. and that the kings enjoyed their afterlives in solitude until recent incursions... all the while, in fact they were just as human as we tend to be today!!!  :D

I guess recycling isn't a new thing, and value is wherever it is found - be it gold or aircraft aluminum.  If the stuff found at Niku did come from a wreck on or around that island (Electra or otherwise) it's a demonstration of the same thing, I think - despite the whisperings of 'there be ghosts there, children, go not to that place', someone bothered to reap some goodies from it for economic betterment.  Interesting.

LTM -

Most of the problem was economic - if all the gold that was buried with each Pharaoh had been left in the graves then the Egyptian economy of the time would have collapsed. The priests responsible would also have turned a blind eye, and as the tombs were constructed by the inhabitants of the same villages who knew the Valley of the Kings like the back of their hand and how many tombs were interconnected with others, or easily accessed with some easy mining, it was a thriving business.

Tutankhamun was a pretty minor Pharaoh who died very young, and we all know the wealth that was buried with him so imagine the value of the wealth deposited with the really great Pharaohs. So once the Pharaoh died and the mourning period was over the heir was pretty tied up with making sure of his own place in the afterlife so give it a couple of years and the tomb robbers could get to work pretty unhindered. All they had to do was not make the tomb robbing too public and they were OK. In fact in the 19th century when Egyptology began to take off descendants of those same villagers were still making a nice profit ferreting out stuff. There is some evidence that Carter had been alerted to Tutankhamun's tomb years before he actually "found" it.

These days it would be considered the greenest of green occupations   ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 20, 2012, 06:32:24 AM
malcolm----that is very interesting. thank you for sharing. HUMMM______wonder if there is anything on NIKU? Maybe some unobtainium. Naaa---probably just some coral, shells, birds, crabs, steel, iron, aluminum-----sharks. Sounds like paradise :o ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 20, 2012, 07:52:29 AM
No drift, but maybe some positive views. Having thought about this search for a while, I concluded that it is another stepping stone to a larger story. No journey is without setbacks, if you want to call this that. I recall the space race very well. I liken this to that, in some ways. Without some of the problems in the early days of that adventure, we may not have gotten to the moon, and beyond. We perserverred.
When TIGHAR went on this expedition, there were great hopes of finding stuff. They may have, and we just dont know it. We do have a greater understanding of the underwater features around Niku, and how man-made things interact with it. That will be very important to a follow up expedition with submirsibles (maybe?). Like sending the unmanned vehicles to the moon in search of a good landing spot. Great idea, but not without some minor tweeking on the actual landing. So, this is similiar. Ric & Co now has some very hard data on what obstacles may be there. I think it will make sending a deep dive submirsible a little less intimidating.
I feel confident of a return to Niku, with all of our partners on board. I, for one, have a new found respect for Ric. Glad he is at the helm of TIGHAR. Pat------keep him straight.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 20, 2012, 11:10:43 AM
interesting to note that there havent been any online updated to the KOKs deck log.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 20, 2012, 11:51:18 AM
interesting to note that there havent been any online updated to the KOKs deck log.

Tom I thought that was interesting too.
As well as the Tighar report from the 19th. Where I thought the plan was to "mow the lawn" with the ROV for that day,  but after reading the report they only used the ROV for about 2 hours then put it away and brought out the AUV to get more scans of the primary search area and area south of the Norwich City. Why stop the "mow the lawn" plan after only 2 hours to re survey an area? 

02:00Z 7-19 (16:00 7-18 KOK)
Launched ROV to continue mowing the lawn in the primary search area.

04:00Z 7-19 (18:30 7-18 KOK)
Recovered ROV after completing two lines – 1,200 to 600 feet. We only go up the hill because it’s hard to see the surface going downhill. We are not searching the vertical cliff that goes from 600 ft up to 250 feet.

06:00Z 7-19 (20:00 7-18 KOK)
Launched AUV for all-night mission to re-survey the primary search area and collect side-scan data south of Norwich City
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 20, 2012, 12:02:10 PM
Greg---i'm thinking the coral outcroppings are worse at shallow depths. My thoughts are they dont want to loose the ROV, since its tethered to the KOK. But with the issues with the AUV, I would think at this late stage, you use the assets that you have. Guess I'm wrong.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 20, 2012, 12:23:29 PM
Discovery news...
http://news.discovery.com/history/earhart-plane-search-hope-fades-120720.html (http://news.discovery.com/history/earhart-plane-search-hope-fades-120720.html)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 20, 2012, 01:25:16 PM
Jeff H, here is a paragraph from Niku VI daily reports

Aboard VvS1, the ROV found the first underwater man-made objects seen on this trip. On the ledge right off the “Nessie” location at about 265 meters they spotted a length of rope or line, and a semi-circular piece of wire. The wire is two to three millimeters in diameter, and light enough that the ROV’s thrusters made it stir. But this is very exciting: the reef slope and ledge are not littered with debris and to find something right off the location where we have a photograph of something is huge. They are planning to retrieve the wire today.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Expeditions/NikuVI/Niku6dailies.html

I was under the impression they didn't know were the rov was at the time, However when they tried to locate wire/rope again they were unsuccessful

Will be interesting to view wire/rope area, If they found it again, With this better technology  :) 

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 20, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
Didn't have the GPS co-ordinates Richie as the GPS was down at the time but...
to find something right off the location where we have a photograph of something is huge

They don't mean the target was huge obviously, just the significance of its location.  Sure sounds like ledge number 2 @300 metres-ish. If its large enough to support the Norwich Citys backside then aircraft wreckage should fit in as well.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 20, 2012, 06:56:04 PM
Yer i got onto that  :)

Jeff listen to this  :)  yesterday morning i had to pick some glass up for a job that had been dropped off at my brothers house, it's is firm i work for  ::)

Why i was there my sister in law, Asked me 2 questions while inquiring about how expedition was going

Q.1- If wreckage is found how can you be sure it is that of Amelia Earhart's Electra ? I said cos it will be ? All i could come up with at time

Q, 2- You as in me, claim the wire/rope in rov video is part of Electra, How do you know that ?,  When the wire/rope looks new an the other stuff u claim is wreckage is covered in coral, Or is corroded enough to resemble coral ?

A, 2- I said because the cable is designed to cut out noise and interference, If it is Antenna cable ?, It act's like a magnet the plus side draws debris/interference, While the negative side reflects and diverts interference and that is why wire looks new cos it reflects matter or particles so to speak  :)

I didn't answer Q, 1

Not yet anyway
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 20, 2012, 07:29:34 PM
Good points Richie
1. It is the only possible aircraft to be @ 300 metres down on the Gardner seamount (that we know of)
2. If it is what I suspect then it was concealed from the elements for a long time in ducts/ under flooring. Only when this deteriorated did cable become exposed.
IMHO of course
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Michael Calvin Powell on July 21, 2012, 09:08:34 AM
Coverage of the mission:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112660667/amelia-earhart-lockheed-model-10-resting-place-to-remain-a-mystery-for-now/





Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 21, 2012, 09:55:19 AM
Not as disappointing as it first appears. Lots of new data and footage to analyse and, you never know. Shame the wire and rope couldn't be found this time around but, without the GPS co-ordinates and, given the topography of the reef, no surprise really. If the aircraft had remained in one piece or even big bits, it would have stuck out like a sore thumb.
IMHO
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 21, 2012, 10:54:24 AM
Jeff,
A major part of the plan was to pick targets with the AUV, then use the ROV.
It seems it took multiple passes of the AUV just to pick out the giant stern of the Norwich City. The plane could still be in big pieces and was still misssed so I don't know if it would stick out like a sore thumb if the pieces were big. At least not to the AUV. If it was there.
They didn't search everywhere with the ROV.
From the Dailies:
 "everything with the AUV’s sonar turns on the exact angle as it flies past, and it’s tough to program in repeated passes when you don’t know what’s there or what might be there. In fact, the AUV did not see any of the Norwich City wreckage on the first several passes – it required a completely different angle and approach and suddenly the great mass of crumbling steel appeared"
BTW I do know the difference between the design of aluminum planes and steel ships (from your previous response to my saying it would be difficult to pick out sonar targets to search in the NC debris you noted that difference for some reason) It turns out even coral can be thought of as a very good target based on sonar. They did have a very difficult task.
I do agree they have alot of data,ROV footage,AUV scans from different angles, etc. to go thru, They still could have found something important and haven't said it or don't know yet
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 21, 2012, 11:12:41 AM
Yes agreed, AUV's prefer a flatish surface underneath them Gregory to make best use of the technology. It became apparent early on that a reef face like the Gardner seamount was going to be a challenge for sonar, too many grooves, caverns, holes, ridges, plates, boulders, shelves, gullies,. Too many false targets hiding real targets...?
Still, the ROV won't be so easily misled, it records what is there and, makes it easier to sort out the above from...?
They were able to identify and eliminate NC wreckage quite easily but aircraft wreckage won't survive as well as ship wreckage in those conditions.
All IMHO of course
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 21, 2012, 12:06:11 PM
Very interesting the end bit of today's update, About the wire and net on reef slope  :)

 http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies4.html
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 21, 2012, 04:47:19 PM
Very interesting the end bit of today's update, About the wire and net on reef slope  :)

 http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7dailies4.html

A fishnet rope tangle, who in their right mind would be trawling a seamount? Takes all sorts I guess. That's one sure way of losing your net/ship ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 21, 2012, 05:47:03 PM
how long as island been uninhibited ?

would be interesting to find out date/era of net, so hopefully Ric will post video for us to analyze it  :)   

 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 21, 2012, 06:02:36 PM
how long as island been uninhibited ?

would be interesting to find out date/era of net, so hopefully Ric will post video for us to analyze it  :)

The Pacific Ocean is positively replete with large commercial fishing fleets from countries that border it. In fact their lost nets and cables are one of the biggest threats to marine life in the Pacific. It is no surprise that a net and its lines would turn up on the slope off the island - in fact that is the obvious answer to what that piece of cable in the video is, I worked that out the first time I saw it.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 21, 2012, 06:26:51 PM
I was thinking more on the lines of how far it was from surf line ?

If you were captain of vessel that lost that rig if it is from fishing boat, you would have to be suicidal to go so close to reef, Norwich city being the example why

which lead's me to believe it may have been dropped off reef edge at low tide, because it would have floated into or beyond nc wreck if it were from ship far out ?

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 21, 2012, 09:06:02 PM
I was thinking more on the lines of how far it was from surf line ?

If you were captain of vessel that lost that rig if it is from fishing boat, you would have to be suicidal to go so close to reef, Norwich city being the example why

which lead's me to believe it may have been dropped off reef edge at low tide, because it would have floated into or beyond nc wreck if it were from ship far out ?

Didn't need to get close - before they were banned some of these nets were 50 kms long, some countries still use extra long nets. If they snag, the skipper just cuts the line. They are absolute environmental disasters.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_netting

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 22, 2012, 12:07:05 AM
What we couldn't work out was how the 'fishing line' managed to get trapped underneath whatever it is and, weave its way through whatever it is. They might have been the unluckiest fishermen in history when whatever it is landed/fell on top of their lines or, they caused a huge underwater landslide which trapped their lines. That'll teach them to trawl a 90 degree seamount, sonar faulty or, just ignored it?
$36,000 rig cut loose (North sea, 2009 prices) no wonder fish is so expensive ;)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 22, 2012, 07:34:58 AM
I have a lot of confidence in the fact that, with all the data and video capture there will be a significant outcome to this expedition. The haystack is heading back to Hawaii, it's just a matter of searching it for the elusive needle.

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Randy Conrad on July 22, 2012, 09:37:50 AM
Jeff, I'm kind in agreement on what you are saying! What I would like to know, as much as Richie would too, is how big is this net? Plus, was this net capable of retrieving the whole Electra, or parts and pieces of her. You never know! Also, in past expeditions, did the ROV that searched the other side of the island, did they by chance run into any nets or rope over there? Was this net used on the Norwich City and did by chance Amelia and Fred use this to catch fish with. Getting back to the size of the net, and the chance of someone using it to pick up the Electra or pieces of her. At one point, did a fishing boat or maybe the "Japanese" stumble on her.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: JNev on July 22, 2012, 10:46:00 AM
The net / associated rope just adds one more huge variable to the search - think about what Malcolm has shared. 

Those nets are huge and can turn up anywhere; I think they can also drift well enough to about anywhere.  I don't know much about net construction, but some may have flotation of some sort built in too which could cause drift to be a big factor in what happens once those buggers are free.

Why the variable for the search?  If the wreck was anywhere in the path of such a net, and the net was being moved by other forces such as a ship that hadn't cut it loose yet or a storm, the wreck might be dragged off a shelf, etc.

One thing TIGHAR definitely will bring home from Niku this time is more knowledge that we search in a very tough environment.  If there really is a needle in that haystack, it well may have been moved around.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 22, 2012, 01:25:42 PM
It would be interesting to see this net Jeff. It may shed some light on type of fishing and, age of fishing gear. Deep sea fishing is a recent development, 1970's, with the advent of  the technology for long range commercial fishing vessels and fleets. Yes, prehistoric man did deep sea fishing but obviously not with cables/wires/nets etc... Or, 6000 miles from his home.
The flotation devices, if any, will be a good clue as to the type of fishing and, likely origin.
Notice how we already have something to debate from this expedition. Let's hope there will be more 'somethings'.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 23, 2012, 07:52:56 PM
There seems to be a lot of unwarranted negativity regarding this expedition and that's before the KOK has even made it back. So, no smoking gun? A bit early to say that given the amount of data and footage that has to be analysed. Despite the problems with the AUV and various other bits of kit they did spend a considerable amount of time on the reef face. This ROV was a step up from the previous one, another plus point in favour of finding something interesting.
All in all a gallant effort that may yet pay off. The hard work begins now.


Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 23, 2012, 09:27:42 PM
From today's report and press release.
"Due to the limitations of the technology, we were only able to see standard-definition video images during actual search operations. Now that we're examining the recorded high-definition video, we’re already seeing objects we want our forensic imaging specialist, Jeff Glickman, to look at"
That is interesting that they were only looking at standard definition during the search.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 24, 2012, 05:04:16 AM
That sounds more promising Gregory. My guess regarding the HD and standard is that it is due to the available bandwidth during real time searching, transmitting from ROV to ship. HD is recorded straight to memory to be analysed later so no restraint on bandwidth.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Gus Rubio on July 24, 2012, 08:04:09 AM
There seems to be a lot of unwarranted negativity regarding this expedition and that's before the KOK has even made it back.

You should read some of the comments on NBCnews.com's article about the search- it saddens (and confuses and angers) me that so many people can be (or choose to pretend to be) so short-sighted and ignorant.  (Big crazy long link, wouldn't paste correctly, sorry.)  Comments like: "A waste of tax-payer money;" "What's the point, she's dead, stop looking;" "That money could have been spent somewhere more useful;" "The plane probably won't even be salvageable, why look for it?"  All I can say is, where's my Tylenol...?

Quote
All in all a gallant effort that may yet pay off. The hard work begins now.

Verily.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 24, 2012, 08:31:59 AM
Thanks for that news Gus, we in the UK tend to miss out on the American coverage. Having read all the comments yes, there's lots of in-accuracies but, that's to be expected I guess.
The one comment that made most sense regarded the fact that there is a mountain of data and information to analyse before any conclusions can be drawn.
IMHO there is aircraft wreckage on the reef, not readily recognisable as such, yet, but what should we expect to see given the time span and, the conditions down there?
If it had been a shipwreck then I would expect to see big recognisable chunks, but an airframe? Not so sure there would be anything as clear cut as that readily visible.
All IMHO of course
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Rafael Krasnodebski on July 24, 2012, 10:59:46 AM
 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18972529

How's this one grab ya?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 24, 2012, 11:16:49 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18972529

How's this one grab ya?

More doom and gloom before anyone has had the chance to analyse the data Raf.
The glass is either half full or half empty. (depending on whose round it is next)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 24, 2012, 11:51:31 AM
Well unless KOK has some sort of transporter beam, it hasnt returned yet. She's still at sea. Evidence---well unless Ive been absent from class, I thought the data was being analyzed.
Gee. Sounds like the US media. Hum------Notice discovery has been quite---and they were there
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Paul John Patten on July 24, 2012, 11:58:09 AM
It's fun to read the followup blogs to the network and newspaper stories. It makes me feel like an absolute genius to read how stupid some people really are. Semper fi.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 24, 2012, 12:42:45 PM
This video [scroll to end] by CBS takes an interesting 'middle of the road' approach-

"Latest Amelia Earhart search falls short"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57478379/latest-amelia-earhart-search-falls-short/
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 24, 2012, 03:03:44 PM
I hadn't seen this one before

http://landing.newsinc.com/shared/video.html?freewheel=90962&sitesection=csmonitor&VID=23651898
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 24, 2012, 03:31:02 PM
Is it just me or has the 23rd of july daily report been edited ?

inset, Only until we have had thorough analysis can we say what we have found and that answer will be revealed Sunday, August 19th only on Discovery.

does that mean what i think it does  ;)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 24, 2012, 05:44:06 PM
Hum----maybe they did find something------I dont reall reading the part about revealing Sunday --august 19 ONLY ON DISCOVERY. That sounds like a media promo. For a show that reveals coral formations, and black tip sharks? Naa----we can see that any time. On the other hand----promo to promote something they found sounds better to me. Ok----
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 24, 2012, 06:00:04 PM
It was edited. Here is what was there this morning
"Did TIGHAR’s Niku VII expedition find the Earhart aircraft? It’s far too early to say. Big pieces of airplane wreckage were not immediately apparent, but after 75 years in Nikumaroro’s severe and unstable underwater environment, that is hardly surprising. Whatever survives is hard to find.
 We have volumes of sonar data and many hours of high-definition video to review and analyze before we will know whether we found it. Due to the limitations of the technology, we were only able to see standard-definition video images during actual search operations. Now that we're examining the recorded high-definition video, we’re already seeing objects we want our forensic imaging specialist, Jeff Glickman, to look at. We’ll also be getting expert second opinions on our best sonar targets. We should have some results by the time the Discovery Channel show airs on August 19th"
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 24, 2012, 06:16:30 PM
The comment over the link to the Daily Report:
"The new daily report is up, featuring the "official" press release. They are stuck down in reviewing video and sonar imagery and are finding interesting things."

In looking at the edited press release compared to the original that I pasted in the post above, I suspect that Discovery had something to do with changing it.
 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 24, 2012, 06:38:49 PM
Is it just me or has the 23rd of july daily report been edited ?

inset, Only until we have had thorough analysis can we say what we have found and that answer will be revealed Sunday, August 19th only on Discovery.

does that mean what i think it does  ;)

Yes Richie it was, and that can be taken anyway you like.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Thom Boughton on July 24, 2012, 11:42:26 PM

More doom and gloom before anyone has had the chance to analyse the data Raf.
The glass is either half full or half empty. (depending on whose round it is next)


Oh, I don't know.  Other than the fact that it assumes conclusions not yet reached, it's actually somewhat more even-handed than many such articles being published on this side of the Atlantic.  They're off the mark....but but not nearly as far off as the rest.


Re the glass.....as always, it is neither half empty nor half full.  Rather, it has obviously been over-engineered and is merely twice as large as is necessary for its intended purpose.







tb
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 25, 2012, 07:57:44 AM
I'm guilty----of reading into the daily reports---looking for a hidden tidbit that satisified my minds thirst for something factual. Perhaps I overstepped alittle. Here's to hoping the 'target' Ric wants Jeff G to look at is promising. Hope we get to see it. 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Gus Rubio on July 25, 2012, 07:59:52 AM
Here's to hoping the 'target' Ric wants Jeff G to look at is promising. Hope we get to see it.

Here's hoping the target is a big roundish object with 9 pronounced lumps around the perimeter...
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 25, 2012, 08:40:14 AM
LOL-----I was going to say that sounded like my ex-son in law---I'm with you Gus---anything right now to keep up the positive attitude!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: don hirth on July 25, 2012, 09:39:48 AM
Gus Rubio, Yes. Wouldn't a 9 cyl. P and W be the "Holy Grail." but we'd settle for anything
that is numbered or otherwise prove that it's an AE, Electra artifact. Cross your fingers.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 25, 2012, 10:07:40 AM
I'm guilty----of reading into the daily reports---looking for a hidden tidbit that satisified my minds thirst for something factual. Perhaps I overstepped alittle. Here's to hoping the 'target' Ric wants Jeff G to look at is promising. Hope we get to see it.

Tom i think you will look into it more when you read latest report  :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 25, 2012, 10:19:42 AM
I did Richie----guess Im on pins and needles again
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Rafael Krasnodebski on July 25, 2012, 10:51:34 AM
Ooooh it's exciting .... and I'll have to wait longer than the rest of you, because it'll be the 20th over here when the program goes out  ;) ... Now where did I leave those blood pressure tablets?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 25, 2012, 10:53:30 AM
If you find them I think we could all use one or two. :D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 25, 2012, 11:40:56 AM
At least it wont be reruns of the Deadlest Catch!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 25, 2012, 11:52:19 AM
Riiiiight! ::)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 25, 2012, 09:32:06 PM
It's really sad to see how many in the media are misreporting about the length of time that KoK was on station at Nikumaroro.  It's become quite the mantra of negative reporting.  For instance, a NatGeo article says this:
Quote
TIGHAR's $2.2-million expedition was originally slated to last ten days, but "equipment problems directly attributable to the severity of the underwater environment at Nikumaroro" cut the search time to only five days.

A ten day expedition cut down to "only five days."  Yeah, right. 

It's sad that the reporters crafting such stories cannot read the times in the publicly-accessible daily reports and do the simple arithmetic. 

KoK arrived at the island at 11:30Z on 12 July (Thursday) and immediately began its side beam sonar mapping.  KoK departed the vicinity at 10:00Z on 20 July (Friday) after performing a final side beam sonar mapping on the southern side of Nikumaroro.  That's a stay at Niku of just two hours shy of a full 8 days on location -- a stay significantly longer than the 5 days that the media continues to misreport.

 

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 25, 2012, 09:49:39 PM
It's really sad to see how many in the media are misreporting about the length of time that KoK was on station at Nikumaroro.  It's become quite the mantra of negative reporting.  For instance, a NatGeo article says this:
Quote
TIGHAR's $2.2-million expedition was originally slated to last ten days, but "equipment problems directly attributable to the severity of the underwater environment at Nikumaroro" cut the search time to only five days.

A ten day expedition cut down to "only five days."  Yeah, right. 

It's sad that the reporters crafting such stories cannot read the times in the publicly-accessible daily reports and do the simple arithmetic. 

KoK arrived at the island at 11:30Z on 12 July (Thursday) and immediately began its side beam sonar mapping.  KoK departed the vicinity at 10:00Z on 20 July (Friday) after performing a final side beam sonar mapping on the southern side of Nikumaroro.  That's a stay at Niku of just two hours shy of a full 8 days on location -- a stay significantly longer than the 5 days that the media continues to misreport.

Perhaps it might be that after all the hype prior to the trip the media is just reflecting the rather underwhelming results. What didn't help was that rewrite of the original comments on the daily progress site, after leaving the island on the return trip, which did look a bit like someone in PR realised that with a downer like that TIGHAR won't attract any donations at all, so it was decided to make it look a bit more upbeat. We know the whole Earhart/Nikumaroro thing is about 90% spin so I can't see what TIGHAR has to complain about if the truth of the matter leads the media to ignore the spin. We all live in the modern media age and we all know the difference between advertising spin and reality.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 26, 2012, 05:12:18 AM
Damn Malcolm---not only are you a 'archaeologist' but you have ESP, and a chrystal ball as well. You can see the results of the trip before the data has been extracted. If thats the case----give all of us the answers. ---or go about your merry way
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 26, 2012, 06:27:30 AM
let me ask you malcolm----would you put your reputation on the line, alot of your own money, lots of time, effort, sweat into a project like this, OR would you rather conjure up a a hoax, spend someone elses millions, just for some TV time, a picture with Sec. Clinton, and some WONDERFUL vacation time in paradise at a luxury resort on Nikumaroro?
 Tell you what-----Lets go to New Brittan---you do the fund raising, and some of your own money, get your picture taken with -------(who;s the young dude in North Korea?), and lets hike to where ever the resort is in New Brittan to look for your wreck for evidence that it actually came from Alpha Centauri.  I'm in----oh---I need a plane ticket too.

Give us a break. have you ever met Ric and Pat? Thought so. I have, as well a alot of members here. If you are going to make a accusation like that-----you might want to tell it to their face and be a man.

Email me for my address to sent the plane ticket--
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 26, 2012, 08:34:02 AM
Most data and information takes time to analyse, it would be worthless if you did otherwise.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Dave Potratz on July 26, 2012, 12:40:58 PM
Quote
We all live in the modern media age and we all know the difference between advertising spin and reality.

...and then there's the kind of spin that certain individuals attempt to advance in support of their own personal "reality," in a seemingly obsessive effort to suck away energy from a legitimate endeavour.

....one kind is designed to build-up in the name of advancing knowledge... the other just an illegitimate muse to try to tear it down...

...and so it goes...
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 26, 2012, 04:11:56 PM
KoK's deck log for 7/24/2012 describes some unpleasant surface conditions:
Quote
BUCKING STRONG HEAD
WINDS 2O-25 KTS WITH HIGHER GUSTS.  TRYING TO MAKE ETA HONOLULU
 AFTERNOON OF SUNDAY, JULY 29TH.

But of course, today Time Magazine's reporter  (http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/07/26/group-fails-to-find-amelia-earharts-wreckage-again-how-many-times-have-we-seen-this-before/) knows better:
Quote
On Tuesday The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery landed back in Hawaii, empty-handed, after a nearly three-week-long expedition.

Great job, reporter Tim Newcomb.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on July 26, 2012, 06:21:06 PM
What can ye say they have to sell news,

 However at least let them get back to shore before releasing a story like that  ???
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 26, 2012, 09:58:54 PM
Damn Malcolm---not only are you a 'archaeologist' but you have ESP, and a chrystal ball as well. You can see the results of the trip before the data has been extracted. If thats the case----give all of us the answers. ---or go about your merry way

No Tom - just mildly curious as to why the original diary entry was rewritten with a totally different meaning. When that happens people will ask questions like that, and in fact I think the more that do the better.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 27, 2012, 06:17:31 AM
That is a good point Malcolm, and I have been curious about that too. Guess I misunderstood what you meant. Appologies. Does seem to me however, that the Dailies I'm seeing are different that what you and others are seeing. Never saw a daily where the seas were rough and the winds high----just that the captain had increased speed. So---I can see where there is room for seeing things alittle differently.
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bob Lanz on July 27, 2012, 09:44:34 AM
That is a good point Malcolm, and I have been curious about that too. Guess I misunderstood what you meant. Appologies. Does seem to me however, that the Dailies I'm seeing are different that what you and others are seeing. Never saw a daily where the seas were rough and the winds high----just that the captain had increased speed. So---I can see where there is room for seeing things a little differently.
Tom

Tom, I think where that came from is on the DAILY REPORT FOR WEDNESDAY, JULY 25, 2012
 (http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/UMC/Reports/KOKreport.htm)
WEATHER: CLOUDY
 WIND: 080 T // 22 KTS// SEA STATE: 5 // SWELL: MIX // 10  FT.
 BAROMETER: 29.85 IN // TEMP: 80 DEG F. COMMENTS: UNDERWAY FOR HONOLULU.  RUNNING ON SCRS #2 AND #3
 SCR #1 OPERATIONAL.   CONTINUING AT 215 SHAFT RPM PORT, 225
 SHAFT RPM STBD.  BUCKING  SEAS AND SWELLS. STILL TRYING TO MAKE
 ETA HONOLULU  AFTERNOON  OF SUNDAY, JULY 29TH. NEED TO MAKE
 GOOD 7.8-7.9 KTS FOR AFTERNOON ARRIVAL. WEATHER IS  FORECAST
 TO IMPROVE SOME OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 27, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
I see that now----I forgot how to get to the deck logs. Found it!
Thanks---gee it woul dbe EASIER if they woudl just tell us something!
i know, I know---delayed gratification
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 28, 2012, 01:36:49 AM
I see that now----I forgot how to get to the deck logs. Found it!
Thanks---gee it woul dbe EASIER if they woudl just tell us something!
i know, I know---delayed gratification

This is the current wording for the 21st -

Seas are a bit rough but we’re still averaging 9 knots pounding our way homeward. We crossed the equator at 22:05Z (12:05 KOK). In this location, the equator is also the boundary of Kiribati and, therefore, an east/west dogleg in the International Dateline. Although we have stayed on Hawaii time for convenience, officially today was the 22nd before we crossed the equator. July 22 is team member Tim Mellon’s birthday so he has now had one birthday this year and he’ll get another one tomorrow.

In addition to catching up on sleep, everyone is compiling and organizing data, video imagery, and still photos. The Discovery guys are reviewing and editing their footage and, in some cases, shooting additional material to fill gaps.

We won’t actually know what we might have on either the sonar data or on the HD video until some time after we get back to the States. There is a mountain of material to get through, and real time isn’t anything like sufficient to see and understand all the images and information we’ve collected. So the results of the expedition are truly not known. No big shiny silver airplane, obvious to all, but the data on the various storage devices may hold treasures.


The original was a lot less upbeat, in fact rather pessimistic. This current version appeared a few hours after the original without explanation - the original appears to have been the one that some media picked up.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 28, 2012, 10:57:33 AM
I recieved this article today via a link e-mailed to me by one of my colleagues who works for the ESA on consultancy basis. Having read through it I noticed it relates to Data and information gathered and, the analysis of said data and information.
It's one of the big questions: Are we alone on this blue marble or is there life elsewhere in the cosmos? To shed some light, astronomers are searching for habitable worlds circling far-off stars.

A team has now published updated evidence for a planet that could be the most Earth-like yet. According to the US Planetary Habitability Laboratory, it would be the fifth potentially habitable world known outside our Solar System.
So what do we know about these five Earth-like planets, and how likely is it that they could support life?


The discovery of Gliese 581g was announced in September 2010 by a US-led team. But as soon as they made the announcement, doubts began to surface. The team at the Geneva observatory which had discovered all four other planets around the star Gliese 581 failed to detect it in their own data. However, the original discoverers of 581g have now published an analysis using a greater amount of data to provide more promising evidence for its existence. [/b]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19008908 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19008908)

Life on another planet? An Earth like planet? The closest yet to being an Earth like planet?
No, it doesn't prove anything except, the benefits and advantages of studying all the data and information that you have collected, thoroughly over the period of time needed to extract the details.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 28, 2012, 06:38:53 PM

Life on another planet? An Earth like planet? The closest yet to being an Earth like planet?
No, it doesn't prove anything except, the benefits and advantages of studying all the data and information that you have collected, thoroughly over the period of time needed to extract the details.

So are you saying that Amelia was abducted by aliens from another world or that data should be analysed?  ;D

Of course analysis is required, but I do rather hope that we are not descending into a situation as I mentioned once before which is the making of one of those dreadful "scientific" documentaries where some narrator with a deep voice intones about all the possibilities that said data indicates but finishes with "and we will have to wait until next whenever for the final pieces in this puzzle". That is not science or history, that is soap opera.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 28, 2012, 09:46:56 PM
I do rather hope that we are not descending into a situation as I mentioned once before which is the making of one of those dreadful "scientific" documentaries where some narrator with a deep voice intones about all the possibilities that said data indicates but finishes with "and we will have to wait until next whenever for the final pieces in this puzzle". That is not science or history, that is soap opera.

That is a fact-free belief--an opinion.  It is not based on the area where you have credentials.

It seems to me that much of science has to wait for "final pieces" of puzzles to be found so that they can be fit into place.  Consider, for example, the work being done on dark matter and dark energy.  There is no shortcut to solving the problems for which those theories are suggested answers.

It is not unusual in research for one to be incapable of predicting when the work will be complete.  TIGHAR is not manufacturing data to fit its hypothesis.  It is testing its theory by searching where one would expect to find evidence if the hypothesis is true.  There is no "science clock" by which one can measure how long the search will take.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 29, 2012, 10:14:53 AM
Well, as the name of the channel implies, Discovery. What were you expecting it to be called, Solved?
And, no sign of J R Ewing, yet ;)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bill Roe on July 29, 2012, 02:20:56 PM

Marty's points are point-on.


You know, respectfully I must disagree.

Marty is comparing science related to solving a curiosity as opposed to solving a science that will benefit mankind.  The Discovery Channel is entertainment.  And entertainment directed at a particular segment of the population.  They, as other entertainment venues, are profit driven.  And they'll exploit a subject just as handily as the Playboy Channel.

{Um......I'm trying to remember what the Playboy Channel is about....... ;)}
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 29, 2012, 03:24:40 PM
Marty is comparing science related to solving a curiosity as opposed to solving a science that will benefit mankind.

By what science have you arrived at the conclusion that the "curiosity" is insoluble?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bill Roe on July 29, 2012, 03:38:10 PM
Marty is comparing science related to solving a curiosity as opposed to solving a science that will benefit mankind.

By what science have you arrived at the conclusion that the "curiosity" is insoluble?

HUH?  Now you're doing to me what you've done to Malcom {comprehension 101}.  Show me where I clearly stated that a curiosity is unsolvable. In particular trying to find out what happened to AE and her airplane - a curiosity. 

I was merely .... oh, never mind.  I'm not about to argue a ridiculous point.  Read my post - no interpretation necessary.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 29, 2012, 04:44:25 PM
I'm not about to argue a ridiculous point.  Read my post - no interpretation necessary.

I agree that the point you made is ridiculous.

I don't agree with you that the source of funding changes the essential nature of investigation.

If we don't have all of the pieces of a puzzle, whether the question is about satisfying curiosity about a historical event or satisfying curiosity about the cosmos, it does not make sense to declare that it is unscientific to want to find the missing pieces of the puzzle. 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bill Roe on July 29, 2012, 07:31:33 PM
Thanks Jeff -

"Looking for a needle in a haystack" - and that's the only thing you'll find.  Search hard for the needle and you'll miss all the hay around it.

Hopefully that's what'll happen when they get back - that is, take a look at the hay.

I'm curious about AE and her airplane also.  However, I'm skeptical that we have the proper or advanced enough technology to answer the question definitively. 

I'm also a good enough businessman and planner to know when I'm wasting assets.  At the same time, I'm not part of the TIGHAR inner circle thus it's impossible to determine, fer sure, that assets are not at their most productive.  Yet, from what I've read here, it could be questionable.

I've also got enough time in the air under difficult circumstances that weighs my opinion toward Malcom's - she went down in deep water and was lost.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 29, 2012, 10:10:32 PM
I've also got enough time in the air under difficult circumstances that weighs my opinion toward Malcom's - she went down in deep water and was lost.

I think that you may be thinking of LaPook's hypothesis (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,696.0.html) (box search, then splashed-and-sank).

So far as I know, Malcolm has not made a commitment to any of the splashed-and-sank scenarios.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bill Roe on July 29, 2012, 11:34:20 PM
I've also got enough time in the air under difficult circumstances that weighs my opinion toward Malcom's - she went down in deep water and was lost.

I think that you may be thinking of LaPook's hypothesis (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,696.0.html) (box search, then splashed-and-sank).

So far as I know, Malcolm has not made a commitment to any of the splashed-and-sank scenarios.

This is where I remembered reading - just forgot the context.....

I offer another purely hypothetical scenario, and I stress hypothetical because as we all know I have a quite serious reluctance to accept the validity of much of the cited physical evidence, however in fairness it is one that bears consideration.

The Electra ran out of fuel and came down at sea and sank. Either Earhart and Noonan or both of them made it into the life raft which eventually drifted ashore at Nikumaroro. The survivor lasted long enough to die on the island which explains the skeleton, and also the lack of any wreckage so far found - it might explain possible personal items like the freckle cream and the compact. Those being in a bag hastily grabbed as the plane sank.

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 30, 2012, 12:01:35 AM

This is where I remembered reading - just forgot the context.....

I offer another purely hypothetical scenario, and I stress hypothetical because as we all know I have a quite serious reluctance to accept the validity of much of the cited physical evidence, however in fairness it is one that bears consideration.

The Electra ran out of fuel and came down at sea and sank. Either Earhart and Noonan or both of them made it into the life raft which eventually drifted ashore at Nikumaroro. The survivor lasted long enough to die on the island which explains the skeleton, and also the lack of any wreckage so far found - it might explain possible personal items like the freckle cream and the compact. Those being in a bag hastily grabbed as the plane sank.


It is a possible variation on the Nikumaroro hypothesis. Overall I am remaining pretty neutral as far as Earhart's fate is concerned, but if I was asked on peril of instant extinction if I didn't provide an opinion I would take splashed and sank as the most likely fate. Simply because some of the hypothetical gymnastics involved in getting her down on some searchable island are of Olympic standard.

But we will see. They are going back to East New Britain in October, TIGHAR have pictures to analyse, Nauticos are continuing their efforts and NASA is about to put another ROV down on Mars which might beam back pics of the Electra and the Martian museum in which it is contained.   
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 30, 2012, 12:22:16 AM

I agree that the point you made is ridiculous.

I don't agree with you that the source of funding changes the essential nature of investigation.

If we don't have all of the pieces of a puzzle, whether the question is about satisfying curiosity about a historical event or satisfying curiosity about the cosmos, it does not make sense to declare that it is unscientific to want to find the missing pieces of the puzzle.

An interesting and not particularly value free interpretation of what Bob posted Marty. The origin of funds in scientific research is often of immense importance, I trust you have read Naomi Oreskes & Erik M. Conway Merchants of Doubt. If you have ever been employed as a consultant in industries such as mining, as I have, then you will be aware of how tricky it is to maintain balance and objectivity. Invariably some people from both sides will try and influence results.   
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 30, 2012, 06:09:31 AM
An interesting and not particularly value free interpretation of what Bob posted Marty.

I have not embraced a philosophy which makes its highest value being value-free.  To me, that seems like nonsense.  We can, if you wish, discuss this further in the Chatterbox.

Quote
The origin of funds in scientific research is often of immense importance, I trust you have read Naomi Oreskes & Erik M. Conway Merchants of Doubt. If you have ever been employed as a consultant in industries such as mining, as I have, then you will be aware of how tricky it is to maintain balance and objectivity.

If you have successfully maintained "balance and objectivity," then so can TIGHAR.

If you have sold out to your backers, then you are a self-confessed charlatan.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on July 30, 2012, 06:22:47 AM
I assume that KOK made it back to Honolulu ok? havent seen any deck log updates-----
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 30, 2012, 07:46:58 AM

If you have successfully maintained "balance and objectivity," then so can TIGHAR.

If you have sold out to your backers, then you are a self-confessed charlatan.

Umm.... why if you are so eager to maintain good discourse have you thrown in that last comment? Perhaps you should reconsider.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 30, 2012, 07:51:27 AM
I have not embraced a philosophy which makes its highest value being value-free.  To me, that seems like nonsense.  We can, if you wish, discuss this further in the Chatterbox.

I think that you are mistaken - you put a spin on it that wasn't in the original so the value that was missing was accuracy.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 30, 2012, 08:12:16 AM

If you have successfully maintained "balance and objectivity," then so can TIGHAR.

If you have sold out to your backers, then you are a self-confessed charlatan.

Umm.... why if you are so eager to maintain good discourse have you thrown in that last comment? Perhaps you should reconsider.

I have simply made explicit what is implicit in your comments.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

If you have prostituted your work to please your benefactors, that is reprehensible.

If TIGHAR does the same to please its benefactors, that is reprehensible.

If you have resisted that temptation, so can TIGHAR.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Malcolm McKay on July 30, 2012, 08:22:11 AM

If you have resisted that temptation, so can TIGHAR.

Well yes, as I resisted then TIGHAR can also. But sometimes people don't and therein is why funding sources and the extent to which some will bring pressure is very important when considering the value of published material and the important question of selective use of data. The asbestos and tobacco industries among others provide lessons to us all that money will often overcome scruples. That is why it is so necessary to turn data and published conclusions inside out.   
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bill Roe on July 30, 2012, 10:39:16 AM

If you have resisted that temptation, so can TIGHAR.

Well yes, as I resisted then TIGHAR can also. But sometimes people don't and therein is why funding sources and the extent to which some will bring pressure is very important when considering the value of published material and the important question of selective use of data. The asbestos and tobacco industries among others provide lessons to us all that money will often overcome scruples. That is why it is so necessary to turn data and published conclusions inside out.

Uhmmm.......Let me see here.  I think you just stated that the only thing money won't buy is poverty?  (Simply put)   ;) ;) :D :D ;) ;)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 30, 2012, 06:34:18 PM
Welcome Back NIKU VII

"ARRIVAL REPORT FOR K-O-K 12-07
TIGHAR
JULY 3, 2012 to JULY 29, 2012

1433   Passing Honolulu sea buoy
1500   First line pier 45
1505   Secure starboard side to pier 45

25 days 23 hours 20 min.  Total time underway
3688     NM               Total miles run
49,520  gal               Total fuel consumed
42,366  gal               Total fuel on hand
155     gal               Total lube oil consumed
515     gal               Total lube oil on hand"
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 30, 2012, 07:16:57 PM
YES!!! ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on July 31, 2012, 06:24:52 AM
Great to have everyone back safe and sound. Wonderful job done, now the hard work begins!

It is my feeling that Time ripens all things; with Time all things are revealed; Time is the father of truth.
Francois Rabelais

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jim Doughty on July 31, 2012, 10:49:04 AM
Hello all,

First post of substance from a new forum member. I also have an entry in the New Members thread.

While the question I have feels worthy of discussion, I do feel as if I'm asking for the back of someone's hand. So here, in a perfectly cheerful and respectful tone, I stick out my cheek:

The focus of Niku VII was the underwater search. However, the opportunities for land-based searching seem to be far from exhausted. In particular, there seems to have been a lot of speculation in recent months about Camp Zero, notwithstanding any additional work that could take place at the Seven Site or elsewhere.

Did TIGHAR consider making Niku VII a combined land-sea expedition? Could a team have been ashore looking for Camp Zero, etc. while the K-O-K performed the operations that actually did take place?

I can think of a few potential reasons why this did not happen.

1. Not enough room on the vessel for additional personnel. Staffing and equipping the underwater search took up the entire available capacity.
2. Unlike the Nai'a, which visited the island for the express purpose of supporting operations ashore, the K-O-K had to move where the underwater search took it and could not keep station for the convenience of launching and receiving boats.
3. Lack of available/willing personnel.
4. Lack of funding necessary for the extra effort (manifestly, since the expedition as scoped is not fully paid for yet).
5. It did happen and I have failed to pay adequate attention.
5. ???

It's easy of course for a forum contributor to spout off and tell TIGHAR what it coulda shoulda done, and I understand the wisdom behind the standard response: If you have the money, pal, go ahead and knock yourself out. I know from having followed previous expeditions that it takes a huge expense in time, money and effort to get a human being onto Niku.

But in this case, that would have been a marginal expense. The ship was there. The arrangements with the Kiribati authorities were made. TIGHAR personnel spent several days with the island right in front of them -- and except for a single short visit, didn't go there.

I raise this not to claim there isn't an answer, but to express my faith that there is one and to satisfy my curiosity about what it might be.

Thanks,
Jim
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 31, 2012, 11:02:47 AM
While the question I have feels worthy of discussion, I do feel as if I'm asking for the back of someone's hand. So here, in a perfectly cheerful and respectful tone, I stick out my cheek:

 :P

Quote
Did TIGHAR consider making Niku VII a combined land-sea expedition?

Not that I know of.

My completely uninformed guess is "no."

Quote
1. Not enough room on the vessel for additional personnel. Staffing and equipping the underwater search took up the entire available capacity.

I doubt it.  The KOK can carry a lot of people (http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/UMC/RVKOK.htm), it seems:
Quote
2. Unlike the Nai'a, which visited the island for the express purpose of supporting operations ashore, the K-O-K had to move where the underwater search took it and could not keep station for the convenience of launching and receiving boats.

A grain of truth, but probably could have been worked out. 

Quote
3. Lack of available/willing personnel.

Doubtful.

Quote
4. Lack of funding necessary for the extra effort (manifestly, since the expedition as scoped is not fully paid for yet).

That seems most likely to me.

Quote
But in this case, that would have been a marginal expense. The ship was there. The arrangements with the Kiribati authorities were made. TIGHAR personnel spent several days with the island right in front of them -- and except for a single short visit, didn't go there.

I raise this not to claim there isn't an answer, but to express my faith that there is one and to satisfy my curiosity about what it might be.

We may eventually hear something in TIGHAR Tracks (http://tighar.org/wiki/TIGHAR_Tracks).  At this time, I'm not conscious of having heard an official answer to your question. 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: John Balderston on July 31, 2012, 07:22:44 PM
AV Web  (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/EarhartSearchersReturnWillExamineData_207140-1.html) is running the following Niku VII news item:

Earhart Searchers Return, Will Examine Data
July 31, 2012
By Mary Grady,
Contributing editor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A team from The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery has returned to Hawaii after searching a reef on a remote Pacific atoll in search of evidence to support their theory that Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan ditched their Lockheed Electra there. The team spent about a week exploring the site with a research ship, using submersible vehicles, but reported no definitive signs of the airplane. However, the team collected "volumes of new sonar data, thousands of photographs and hours upon hours of high-definition video," Kate Aconfora, a spokesperson for the Discovery Channel, told AVweb. The TIGHAR team will now be "reviewing and analyzing" all of that material, she said.

This was TIGHAR's 10th expedition in search of definitive evidence of the fate of Earhart and her navigator, Fred Noonan. Nikumaroro is about 1,800 miles from Hawaii, and 400 miles away from Howland Island, which was Earhart's planned destination. Earhart and Noonan vanished 75 years ago during an attempted round-the-world flight. Aconfora said the results of the team's analysis will be revealed on a Discovery Channel special at 10 p.m. on Sunday, Aug. 19.

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on August 01, 2012, 02:26:29 AM
Jim D asks:

"Did TIGHAR consider making Niku VII a combined land-sea expedition? "

Actually, the answer is yes, this was discussed at some length in several variations, combined on one ship, combined on separate ships visiting at the same time, and two expeditions independent of each other.  We even discussed drafting a "castaway corp" of indentured servants to be dropped off on the island and live unsupported by the ship for the duration of the deep water work.  I volunteered, but there weren't too many enthusiasts behind that idea :-) 

"Could a team have been ashore looking for Camp Zero, etc. while the K-O-K performed the operations that actually did take place?"

In theory, yes, this could have been done, but when the planning was being put in place, Camp Zero was not really a target we were thinking much about, so the discussions were focused on how to work at the 7 site while a deep water search was going on.  Logistics to the reach the 7 site are considerably more complex than Camp Zero as a lagoon based launch is needed to move down the lagoon, and in turn that means a fuel depot on the lagoon side shore, etc.  The castaway corp idea would have required yet another level of logistical planning and implementation.

There was enough room on the KOK to accommodate if we had really wanted two teams to go there.  May not have been comfortable, but probably could have been done, and I'm sure we could have mustered willing participants for a ground based team.  As you point out the incremental costs would have been relatively small.

But in the end it was the logistical issues surrounding having one deep water search ship try to support both a deep water search, and a ground based search. The big money was getting spent on searching the deep water, every hour out there was going to be extremely expensive - something like $3500 an hour.  By comparison, the Naia costs about $950 / hour or less.  It became clear that every hour that the ship was not engaged in supporting the deep water search was not a good use of the resources at hand.  As you point out the KOK had to follow the AUV about and breaking off to deal with land based operations would have either cut short the deep water work, and not breaking off would have forced the land based team to operate on the AUV schedule, which as we saw, became extremely variable.

Anyway, the upshot was not to try to combine the two efforts.  It is better to focus the assets on hand on what they are efficient at doing.  A shore based search would have reduced the effectiveness of an already difficult deep water search.

So, the search for Camp Zero will have to wait until we head back for more shore based work.

Andrew
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 01, 2012, 04:57:57 AM
Looks like Discovery is set on the Aug 19 air date. I wonder if that means good news or bad news? The press release didnt sound like it was positive for aircraft wreckage.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 02, 2012, 07:08:18 AM
Yes, everybody is now home safe and sound.  With so much post-expedition work to do, I'm not able to participate in these discussions as much as I'd like, but I'll take a moment here to say that our decision not to try to combine a land search with the underwater search turned out to be a wise one. 
First of all, KOK is limited by law to a maximum of 19 in the scientific party.  There's no wiggle-room to add extra berths.  We could not have added a land team if we wanted to.
Second, supporting the AUV at night and the ROV during the day kept the ship completely occupied.  The only time we were able to put people ashore during the entire time we were there was for a couple of hours on the afternoon of the 17th while the ship was making repairs to the propulsion system after rescuing the AUV that morning.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 02, 2012, 07:14:25 AM
hey RIC------from all of us here, welcome home. Glad everyone is safe. Surely do hope the Discovery show has some good news. Great news would be even better.
Tom
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: John Hart on August 02, 2012, 07:34:49 AM
Ric,

I add my welcome home. I finally read your book and it was very helpful bounding the issue. Wish I had more time to pursue. Particularly decision making process. Details about earlier decisions in flight, PAA SOP that may be instructive to FN thinking although flying boats have more options than land planes, etc.

Hope your review of data is productive.

Regards,

JB
TWW
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jim Doughty on August 02, 2012, 12:00:27 PM
Thanks to all for thoughtful replies to my question about land operations.

Happy to see that Ric and crew have returned safely. Can't wait to see the Discovery broadcast.

Jim
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Harry Howe, Jr. on August 08, 2012, 03:55:16 PM
Discovery Special on Saturday August 19th, at 10:00PM    10:00 PM in which ime zone???  Eastern, Central,Mountain,  Pacific, Hawaii?????   Geez.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Harry Howe, Jr. on August 08, 2012, 04:09:52 PM
Er,  Sorry   Sunday, August 19th  10:))PM  Which time zone??
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bruce Thomas on August 08, 2012, 04:46:39 PM
Er,  Sorry   Sunday, August 19th  10:))PM  Which time zone??

Looking at the Discovery Channel website and their posted schedule (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/weekly.html?date=20120813.226-20120814.227-20120815.228-20120816.229-20120817.230-20120818.231-20120819.232), their program times are valid for both ET/PT.

And, as of right now, it looks like their daily schedule is only fully fleshed out through Thursday, August 16.  Stay tuned!  JITS! (Just In Time Scheduling)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Monte Chalmers on August 09, 2012, 11:35:58 AM
As of today they're up to 3AM on the 19th with the finish of Shark Week.  "not available" after that. I'm used to finding schedules to a month's end at channels I visit.   Not to complain though because they provide some fine programming.   
I was interested in the date/time to include in an email note to Betty - thought maybe she would be interested.  (She had said she would be interested in hearing from any of her classmates.  Since I went to all 12 years of the same schools she went to - but somewhat after, I thought I'd give it a try last month. It was apparently delivered - it didn't come back - but no reply.  :-\) 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on August 09, 2012, 11:52:03 AM
Not sure if we will get to see it here in uk on 19th as I read it will be on the u.s discovery channel on the 19th so wether they show same programs as us remains to be seen
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bill Roe on August 09, 2012, 12:15:17 PM
Not sure if we will get to see it here in uk on 19th as I read it will be on the u.s discovery channel on the 19th so wether they show same programs as us remains to be seen

Is it possible to stream it to your computers from the Discovery website?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on August 09, 2012, 12:53:54 PM
The time I av had to wait to see the program I will find a way  :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 09, 2012, 12:58:02 PM
I expect that we'll be able to send DVDs of the show to TIGHAR members at the TIGHAResearcher level.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Monte Chalmers on August 09, 2012, 01:05:51 PM
Is it possible to stream it to your computers from the Discovery website?
Ric's answer is a good one.  I've also got a Viewer Relations question at the Discovery website asking for an answer to your question.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on August 09, 2012, 02:08:52 PM
I expect that we'll be able to send DVDs of the show to TIGHAR members at the TIGHAResearcher level.

Have the DVDs already been made, of this expedition ?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 09, 2012, 02:10:13 PM
Have the DVDs already been made, of this expedition ?

No. I won't get a DVD of the show until sometime after it airs.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on August 09, 2012, 02:21:07 PM
I am depressed now  ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bob Lanz on August 09, 2012, 02:29:23 PM
The time I av had to wait to see the program I will find a way  :)


Here you go Richie: Discovery Channel Live Stream UK. (http://www.stream2watch.me/live-tv/discovery-channel-live-stream)
 

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on August 09, 2012, 03:14:31 PM
The time I av had to wait to see the program I will find a way  :)


Here you go Richie: Discovery Channel Live Stream UK. (http://www.stream2watch.me/live-tv/discovery-channel-live-stream)


 :) ;) :D thanks Bob
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bill Mangus on August 09, 2012, 03:17:22 PM
Is the special slated for 1 hour or 2?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on August 09, 2012, 03:37:05 PM
Is the special slated for 1 hour or 2?

1 hour special  :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Monte Chalmers on August 09, 2012, 03:51:35 PM
Cool TV tool, Bob - I counted way over a hundred channels - USA, UK, Germany, France. 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: John Balderston on August 13, 2012, 11:42:43 PM
Discovery Channel special "Finding Amelia - Mystery Solved?" (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/special.html?paid=1.18198.137853.0.0) is now listed.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Cynthia M Kennedy on August 14, 2012, 08:28:46 AM
I just checked the on-screen TV listings for DISH in the San Antonio TX area, and all that is listed on August 19, from 7:30 p.m. to 1:30 a.m. Central Time is something called "Auction Kings."  How disappointing.  I really, really wanted to watch the Earhart special.  I wonder why they would have the special listed on their website, but not show it in one part of the U.S.?

Cindy Kennedy
TIGHAR # 3167
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Thom Boughton on August 14, 2012, 10:04:40 AM
Hmmm.....North Carolina is getting Auction Kings as well.

How nice






tb
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jim F Dix on August 14, 2012, 10:18:14 AM
Auction Kings still listed on Time Warner Southern Tier NY
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bob Lanz on August 14, 2012, 10:41:54 AM
I don't know what to believe now.  My local channel says Auction Kings and  Discovery.com (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/special.html?paid=1.18198.137853.0.0) says August 19 at 10:00 PM and August 20 at 12:00 PM.  I wonder if Ric can use his contacts to find out?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 14, 2012, 10:47:53 AM
or just give us a live feed so we can see!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Dave McDaniel on August 14, 2012, 04:41:41 PM
Hi Tom, Cox cable finally updated the listings here in Arkanasas, and lists it as being shown at 9PM CDT and again at 11PM CDT...Dave

Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on August 14, 2012, 04:52:57 PM
hey guys here is sneak preview  :) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/finding-amelia-earhart-mystery-solved-discovery_n_1776233.html
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bill Mangus on August 14, 2012, 06:44:52 PM
 ;D  Looks like a wing to me!!  Look at the grin on Ric's face!

Sunday night will be interesting!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 14, 2012, 07:27:16 PM
Thanks Richie.
Now, the time and date on the footage matches the information in the expedition log. The footage is exremely promising to say the least. The quality of the footage is 100% better than I expected. Ric deserves the smile, as do the rest of the team.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 14, 2012, 08:25:01 PM
I'll sleep pretty good tonite----i think
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: dave burrell on August 14, 2012, 10:55:39 PM
Waiting anxiously...if they found an airplane wing, then there have been some very quiet researchers.... first news reports said nothing was found but that the video and sonar would have to be analyzed. Now we have a short clip showing a guy on the research boat looking at what appears to be solid man made objects...why was it reported nothing was found? odd.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bob Lanz on August 14, 2012, 11:17:57 PM
Screen shots of the video from Huff Post.  Did they find NR16020?
Ric, what is the round object the finger is pointing to in the bottom picture?
Was that something known to be on the wing of and Electra LE 10?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Greg Daspit on August 14, 2012, 11:36:19 PM
Thanks for posting the link Richie
The "wing" sonar image at 42 seconds could be from when the Dailies mentioned promising targets that ended up being boulders or dismissed as Norwich City skeletonized hull.
Note the date on the monitor was edit: July17th for the video at 56 seconds so maybe the Dailies can hint at what was going on then. Probably NC debris
Im looking forward to seeing the adventure after following the dailies.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: dave burrell on August 14, 2012, 11:41:51 PM
manmade for a fact. But what. Wreckage from the Norwich or plane.
very interesting the 3 white circular objects in a straight line.
Can't imagine what those are....
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Thom Boughton on August 14, 2012, 11:52:39 PM
My TiVo has now changed its' mind.  Looks like we'll get to see Ric and Co. after all.



tb
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bob Lanz on August 14, 2012, 11:53:45 PM
manmade for a fact. But what. Wreckage from the Norwich or plane.
very interesting the 3 white circular objects in a straight line.
Can't imagine what those are....


Dave, I would think if that was from the Norwich it would be more rust colored and not light colored as in aluminum from a plane.  The circular objects could be for the fuel filling ports.  I think there were three fuel tanks in each wing.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: C.W. Herndon on August 15, 2012, 04:22:43 AM
Dave, I would think if that was from the Norwich it would be more rust colored and not light colored as in aluminum from a plane.  The circular objects could be for the fuel filling ports.  I think there were three fuel tanks in each wing.

Bob, yes three fuel tanks per wing but there were only two fuel filling ports and they were in the engine nacelles.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 15, 2012, 05:12:23 AM
So---did the Huffington Post get the jump on Discovery? Hum--
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: C.W. Herndon on August 15, 2012, 05:37:22 AM
Here's a possible explanation, picture 2, for the dark circles being pointed out in the first photo.

The lightening holes in the wing behind the engine.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 15, 2012, 06:08:09 AM
Waiting anxiously...if they found an airplane wing, then there have been some very quiet researchers.... first news reports said nothing was found but that the video and sonar would have to be analyzed. Now we have a short clip showing a guy on the research boat looking at what appears to be solid man made objects...why was it reported nothing was found? odd.

The Discovery Channel have first priority Dave which is only fair I guess. They are one of the major sponsors.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 15, 2012, 06:24:01 AM
Well apparently Discovery has released this to some people----the screen shot shows the Discovery Logo on the bottom right corner. Perhaps this was a 'screening" of the show footage.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 15, 2012, 06:30:06 AM
Media coverage will boost the viewing figures Tom. Huffington post though? Not exactly a well known media outlet.
Footage looks promising though Tom so here's hoping.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: John Balderston on August 15, 2012, 06:38:59 AM
Philadelphia Enquirer, breaking news (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20120814_Next_phase_of_hunt_for_Amelia_Earharts_plane_begins.html)
 
BREAKING NEWS
NewsSouth Jersey NewsObituariesWeatherTrafficPoliticsWeird News
Posted: Tue, Aug. 14, 2012, 9:55 AM
Next phase of hunt for Amelia Earhart’s plane begins

By Peter Mucha
Inquirer Staff Writer

AP
In a 1937 file photo, Amelia Earhart and her navigator, Fred Noonan, pose in front of their twin-engine Lockheed Electra in Los Angeles prior to her historic attempt to circle the globe. They flew east, making stops in the United States, South America, Africa and Asia before the final Pacific legs. They disappeared trying to reach Howland Island on the way to Hawaii. On Aug. 19, a Discovery Channel special was scheduled to tell about a new underwater search for the plane's wreckage off a remote Pacific island.

 Earhart search ends with sonar, video to sift through New $2M search hopes to solve Earhart mystery

Some media reports got it wrong.

"Amelia Earhart search fails to find clues," read one July 24 headline. "Search for plane wreckage yields nothing," declared another.

But it's way too soon to slap labels, like failure, on the recent $2.2 million undersea search near a remote Pacific island that was documented for a Discovery Channel special set to air Sunday at 10 p.m.

"The jury is still very much out on this trip," said expedition organizer Ric Gillespie. ". . . "We're just now getting to the point were we can review the video to see what we saw."

Only this weekend was high-resolution video delivered to West Coast forensic imagining specialist Jeff Glickman for analysis, said Gillespie, executive director of a The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery (TIGHAR), based in Wilmington, Del.

"It's been a big job just getting the footage in viewable format," he said.

In mid-July, off the island of Nikumaroro, in waters too deep to dive, a ship-tethered remote-operated vehicle (ROV) spent days relaying fuzzy images of a steep sea bottom coated with sediment and strewn with clumps of coral that can mimic metal shapes.

"We could have easily missed something in the real-time standard-definition video that will show up in the high definition," Gillespie said.

Detecting sediment-covered parts of a Lockheed Model 10 Electra isn't like recognizing the Titanic, he said.

Also just starting to be scrutized: "volumes" of side-scanning sonar data collected by a torpedo-like autonomous underwater vehicle (AUV), which roamed almost a mile down.

If new clues are found in time, the hope is to reveal them on Sunday's show. Thoroughly examining all of the images and data, though, could continue for weeks or even months.

Science takes time, Gillespie said, noting that he's still waiting from results of a third round of DNA testing on bone fragments found during a 2010 visit to the tiny uninhabited atoll, part of the Republic of Kiribati.

New findings or not, the show shouldn't lack for intrigue and adventure, Gillespie said, as it recounts the history of the mystery, lays out tantalizing though inconclusive clues collected by TIGHAR over seven expeditions since 1988, and chronicles mission-jeopardizing setbacks encountered during the latest search.

The evidence fits the theory that Earhart and navigator Fred Noonan crashed off the island, where she may have lived her final days, perhaps using a spear fashioned with a knife to catch birds and fish, Gillespie said.

A 1937 report by Navy flyers spoke of signs of "recent habitation" on the island. An American-style woman's shoe, consistent with ones Earhart wore, was discovered during a 1991 TIGHAR expedition. Evidence of a campfire was found in 1997, consistent with reports that near the camp site, a bottle, a can and human bones were found. A doctor's 1941 analysis concluded those since-lost bones were from a man, but an expert told TIGHAR the measurements were more consistent with a woman.

The latest expedition was launched in early July with much fanfare, because even Secretary of State Hillary Clinton expressed support in March after the discovery of a 1937 photograph showed what could be landing gear sticking out of the water off Nikumaroro.

Contact staff writer Peter Mucha at 215-854-4342 or pmucha@phillynews.com.
 
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 15, 2012, 07:27:16 AM
Agreed Jeff---but NOTHING on Discoverys site. You would think they would put something out there. Also---has anyone seen an update on TIGHARS Facebook page? I keep getting stuf from late in the expedition.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 15, 2012, 09:24:07 AM
Ok---my stupidity is going to show-----but WHY August 19, a month after the expedition to showcase what was found? Why not analyze the footage better before announcing a show date?
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Greg Daspit on August 15, 2012, 09:56:10 AM
Yes 30 days never seemed like enough time. And they set the date of the show while they on the way back. Could it be they found something on the way back while looking at the "interesting things" so went ahead and set the time?  If so then why the question mark after the Mystery solved? Why the lack of a major announcement by Discovery Channel (so far) etc. Could it be they found aircraft weckage in looking at the images later, but not enough info and clarity to tie it for certain to the Electra?
Only a few more days to see.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tim Collins on August 15, 2012, 10:18:08 AM
Yes 30 days never seemed like enough time.

Unless it was obvious.

Could it be they found something on the way back while looking at the "interesting things" so went ahead and set the time? 

I would suspect they were going to do a show regardless of what was or wasn't found. Haven't we all seen enough of such shows on Discovery etc. that serve only to tease about potential solutions and discoveries?

If so then why the question mark after the Mystery solved? Why the lack of a major announcement by Discovery Channel (so far) etc. Could it be they found aircraft weckage in looking at the images later, but not enough info and clarity to tie it for certain to the Electra?

Well, think about it. If i recall correctly they set out with the deliberate claim that nothing would be retrieved for analysis during this expedition so any corroboration and subsequent conclusion would be by visable means only. Wasn't that the same level of proof that Ballard presented when he "found" PT 109?. Without rock solid, documentable proof - the smoking gun as it were - best had by in hand analysis of evidence, then there's still the possibility that the mystery hasn't been solved.  anthying less than 100% certainty means you still don't know:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJohCpifELE
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 15, 2012, 10:21:08 AM
Some good points raised there Gregory. The suspense issue goes a long way in boosting viewing figures for sure and, Discovery Channel being a major sponsor, I see their point.
We spent around 6 months dismantling 2-3 minutes of video footage. This trip there is hundreds of hours of footage to trawl through so it will take time. There's probably no point in delaying the show until it has all been digested and, while the expedition is still fresh in people's minds.
I like the point you raised regarding the question mark?
The suspense...
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Bob Lanz on August 15, 2012, 10:26:57 AM
Dave, I would think if that was from the Norwich it would be more rust colored and not light colored as in aluminum from a plane.  The circular objects could be for the fuel filling ports.  I think there were three fuel tanks in each wing.

Bob, yes three fuel tanks per wing but there were only two fuel filling ports and they were in the engine nacelles.


Woody, that could have been a revision when they added the 102 gal. tanks in each wing.  I don't recall ever seeing refueling points in engine nacelles.  We need an actual picture of a non re-fitted LE 10 to see where they are.  I don't have time to do it today, maybe you could find one or someone here already knows where one is.  In any event those pictures are encouraging.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Dave Potratz on August 15, 2012, 10:27:40 AM
Richie wrote: 
Quote
hey guys here is sneak preview  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/finding-amelia-earhart-mystery-solved-discovery_n_1776233.html

hey thanks, Richie!  VERY tantilizing clip there.  Makes me wonder if it is possible that the Discovery contract would indeed delay the announcement of a major find?

I've a hunch, though that the time-code would match up with the Team's examination of a object that apparently turned out to be confirmed as from the N.C.   That would not be atypical "created suspense" from Discovery Channel.

Regardless, can't wait to see the show!!

LTM,
dp
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 15, 2012, 10:48:32 AM
I would suspect they were going to do a show regardless of what was or wasn't found.

That's right.  Discovery sees value in covering the process.

Haven't we all seen enough of such shows on Discovery etc. that serve only to tease about potential solutions and discoveries?

If you're not interested in what happened, don't watch the show.

Well, think about it. If i recall correctly they set out with the deliberate claim that nothing would be retrieved for analysis during this expedition so any corroboration and subsequent conclusion would be by visable means only. Wasn't that the same level of proof that Ballard presented when he "found" PT 109?. Without rock solid, documentable proof - the smoking gun as it were - best had by in hand analysis of evidence, then there's still the possibility that the mystery hasn't been solved.  anthying less than 100% certainty means you still don't know.

What Bob Ballard claims is up to Bob Ballard.  We made the decision not to recover artifacts on this trip because the recovery and conservation of artifacts is a completely separate process than searching for them. Wreckage is often tricky to recover without damaging or losing it completely and aircraft aluminum that has been immersed in salt water for 75 years is highly unstable. It would be irresponsible to recover it without being ready to conserve it, and we can't be prepared to recover conserve something that is unknown. 
You can rest assured that, regardless of what we have found or may find, I will not proclaim anything to be a "smoking gun."  That's not my call.  That's up to each individual to decide based upon the evidence presented.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tim Collins on August 15, 2012, 11:23:19 AM
[
Haven't we all seen enough of such shows on Discovery etc. that serve only to tease about potential solutions and discoveries?

If you're not interested in what happened, don't watch the show.


I think you've read something into my statement that was not intended. Relax, I'm on your side.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 15, 2012, 11:25:50 AM
Hey Ric---a  ;D would be nice!!!!!
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on August 15, 2012, 11:31:18 AM
Hey Ric---a  ;D would be nice!!!!!

Tom

Am sure you can wait for Sunday  ;)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 15, 2012, 12:32:06 PM
not much choice richie. But you know what------I think Ive seen this screenshot pic before. I think you posted something very similiar early on in the video thread. Now that would be something.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Alan Harris on August 15, 2012, 12:57:12 PM
Regarding those very interesting shots in the Huffington Post teaser, I'm thinking the following quote from the 20 July item on Discovery News (http://news.discovery.com/history/earhart-plane-search-hope-fades-120720.html) might be relevant:

"Disappointingly, two promising targets identified a couple of days ago, turned out to be a large coral boulder and a much degraded piece of the Norwich City's keel."
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Tom Swearengen on August 15, 2012, 01:08:23 PM
Alan you may end up being correct, but my friend Jeff Nevill told me to be optimistic---so I am.
Getting the popcorn ready for Sunday nite
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: C.W. Herndon on August 15, 2012, 01:38:52 PM

Woody, that could have been a revision when they added the 102 gal. tanks in each wing.  I don't recall ever seeing refueling points in engine nacelles.  We need an actual picture of a non re-fitted LE 10 to see where they are.  I don't have time to do it today, maybe you could find one or someone here already knows where one is.  In any event those pictures are encouraging.

Doc, I don't recall seeing many pictures of refueling of the wing tanks. Picture #1 shows part of the defueling of the electra after the Luke Field accident with the refueling door open and one of the fuel caps on the cowling.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,263 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,263)

Picture #2 shows mechanics preparing to refuel the starboard side fuel tanks.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,437 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,437)

Here is the link to the TIGHAR Research Bulletin that describes the NR16020 fuel system.

 http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/61_FuelSystem/61_FuelSystem.htm  (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/61_FuelSystem/61_FuelSystem.htm)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 15, 2012, 01:41:55 PM
The sonar return imaging doesn't take any prisoners. It gives the outline as it sees it. What you make of it is up to you but, and it's the important but, the sonar gives you something to direct a more detailed inspection by ROV at. The way these two technologies work together is the key point.
Lumps of Norwich city wreckage will be easily separated from 'other' due to the nature of their construction purposes.
Brilliant work by the teams, a difficult environment, worse than I described and the results we have glimpsed so far are exceptional given the circumstances.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on August 15, 2012, 02:21:40 PM
What would be the chance's of a freak piece of Norwich City debris being the nearly exact dimensions of an Electra  :o

It's fairly recognizable the object in image, so roll on Sunday  :)   
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 15, 2012, 02:36:36 PM
What would be the chance's of a freak piece of Norwich City debris being the nearly exact dimensions of an Electra  :o

It's fairly recognizable the object in image, so roll on Sunday  :)

Pretty slim Richie unless the ship was designed to fly as well. The two are designed with different requirements and purposes in mind Richie. Aircraft strong but lightweight, ship even
stronger but weight not such an issue.
Weight to size ratio aircraft win every time.
How many 4000 ton ships have you seen made from aluminium?
How many aircraft have you seen made from iron and steel?
Chalk and cheese.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on August 15, 2012, 02:53:15 PM
What would be the chance's of a freak piece of Norwich City debris being the nearly exact dimensions of an Electra  :o

It's fairly recognizable the object in image, so roll on Sunday  :)

Pretty slim Richie unless the ship was designed to fly as well. The two are designed with different requirements and purposes in mind Richie. Aircraft strong but lightweight, ship even
stronger but weight not such an issue.
Weight to size ratio aircraft win every time.
How many 4000 ton ships have you seen made from aluminium?
How many aircraft have you seen made from iron and steel?
Chalk and cheese.

I am thinking along the lines, of what Ric said about a possible target 1 or 1 & 1/2 what turned out to be part of the keel of the ship.

Could this be the sonar image what Ric said was target 1 1.1/2, ? As i think most of us are going through the emotion's that the team must have felt when viewing this bit of data

 :) ;) ;D

Saying that would Ric do that to us  ;)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 15, 2012, 03:24:04 PM
Early days Richie. What is certain is there is more than coral down there. Ship or aircraft debris? How about both.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: Shaw Durman on August 15, 2012, 04:22:45 PM
Any news of a British airing date for the Discovery documentary yet anyone?

me getting excited and impatient!  ;D
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: richie conroy on August 15, 2012, 04:37:48 PM
Early days Richie. What is certain is there is more than coral down there. Ship or aircraft debris? How about both.

As we already knew init  :)
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: C.W. Herndon on August 16, 2012, 12:23:59 PM
Woody, that could have been a revision when they added the 102 gal. tanks in each wing.  I don't recall ever seeing refueling points in engine nacelles.  We need an actual picture of a non re-fitted LE 10 to see where they are.  I don't have time to do it today, maybe you could find one or someone here already knows where one is.  In any event those pictures are encouraging.

Doc, here are some pictures from the internet showing other L-10 Electras. I have not been able to find any signs of fuel fillers on the wings of any of the aircraft. On some of the pictures, the fuel filler door on the cowling nacelle does show up.
Title: Re: NIKU VII
Post by: C.W. Herndon on August 18, 2012, 10:16:26 AM
Doc, here are a couple of more pictures I found indicating the location of the fuel fillers on AE's Electra.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,524 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,524) "AE inspecting the fuel port".
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,299 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,299) "Mechanics refueling Earhart's Electra plane".

Corresponding pictures below.