TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Irvine John Donald on December 16, 2011, 08:21:24 PM
-
You see it all the time in movies. The castaway records the passage of time, or writes notes for someday when they are rescued or their body found.
Would our intrepid castaways have created such a record? Where would it be? What would they have written it on? How would they store it? If they didn't write one then why not?
We can only speculate about this because as we all know there hasn't been anything like this found. Its possible they never wrote anything but if they did where would you store it? On the Electra? Protected on land somehow? A stone marker? What would you have written in it? Something like "I may not survive but I want to make sure the glory seekers of tomorrow, like Gary Lapook, get the story right! For the record Gary, Ric is right! Now to the story..."
Or would it be some sad tale of thirst and hungar where the castaways describe their efforts to radio for help and the sad disappointment when none arrives. Where AE writes that her and FN used the primary octant and second "preventer" sextant to compare sun and star sights to determine their position. 281 south of Howland. With AE finally admitting to FN that she keyed "north" by mistake. Where FN flies into a rage and pushes the Electra off the reef flat."
Seriously. If the Electra is discovered might a record be found? Is there a bottle with a message near the seven site? Was there even enough time for either one of them to think of this never mind actually do it? If one of them died early would the other have left a death record as an act of decency?
So many thoughts on this. What would I do? After a few days I would like to think I would try to leave some marking of my passing.
Any ideas folks?
-
Would our intrepid castaways have created such a record? Where would it be? What would they have written it on? How would they store it? If they didn't write one then why not?
These are interesting, but unanswerable questions--unless and until something is found.
All they would need is time, materials, and the inclination to use them.
I imagine that if they'd built a cairn, or something on that scale, it would have been found by now.
I also imagine that there was something in the sextant box, now lost and gone forever.
-
AE was a journalist and writer, so she would have had writing materials, and the inclination to keep a record. It's easy to imagine she would have written details of their experience, assuming they would be rescued, which would make a great story. Once hope faded, who knows if she would continue writing? Probably, but any paper record has not turned up.
As for Fred, I also believe he would write something. He may have had a more fatalistic attitude, having survived (three?) ship sinkings during the war. Then again, those experiences might have given him a sense of hope, since he was always rescued.
-
Hi Marty. I agree that this thread is pure speculation in that there is no current evidence to support it. I believe that someone with loved ones may at least have wanted to leave some record of who they are/were if for no other reason than to put their loved ones minds at rest. Look at what Putnam went through searching all angles, even seeking out Edgar Cayce. FN's wife would have suffered equally but in a less public manner.
The sextant box would have been a great choice for holding the few few familiar objects that a dying castaway might clutch in their last hours. But alas it was not designed for this. Paper notes would blow away or even mildew away. The native who found it may have dumped the "garbage" out when they found it. Innocently finding a treasure while depriving the world of its real recorded history.
Glass bottles or sealable containers? (My wife could write entire novels for the rest of her life and never fill all the Tupperware in our house).
Stone cairns? Seems natural to look for these. From what I've read about Niku I get the feeling that much of the island is unexplored. Not in the way you might go for a walk and observe your surroundings but in the TIGHAR way of scouring above and below the surface.
You're right Marty. Unprovable until you find that one piece of evidence. But isn't that just the way this mystery is?
A little experiment. Ask family and friends what they would do. Post your results.
-
My speculation is that if anything was written that it was eventually used as tinder in starting fires. Likewise any container / bottle would be used for immediate survival tasks. The Benedictine bottle would be an example: Castaway (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/01_Castaway.html)
-
Hi Marty. I agree that this thread is pure speculation in that there is no current evidence to support it. I believe that someone with loved ones may at least have wanted to leave some record of who they are/were if for no other reason than to put their loved ones minds at rest. Look at what Putnam went through searching all angles, even seeking out Edgar Cayce. FN's wife would have suffered equally but in a less public manner.
The sextant box would have been a great choice for holding the few few familiar objects that a dying castaway might clutch in their last hours. But alas it was not designed for this. Paper notes would blow away or even mildew away. The native who found it may have dumped the "garbage" out when they found it. Innocently finding a treasure while depriving the world of its real recorded history.
Glass bottles or sealable containers? (My wife could write entire novels for the rest of her life and never fill all the Tupperware in our house).
Stone cairns? Seems natural to look for these. From what I've read about Niku I get the feeling that much of the island is unexplored. Not in the way you might go for a walk and observe your surroundings but in the TIGHAR way of scouring above and below the surface.
You're right Marty. Unprovable until you find that one piece of evidence. But isn't that just the way this mystery is?
A little experiment. Ask family and friends what they would do. Post your results.
Read Dr Kings Thirteen Bones, thats exactly what happens in his story. When i read it I wanted to shout 'STOP' as the islander didn't know just how important the papers were.
-
Use your browser and look for Kensington Rune Stone as an example of the extent to which explorers might go to leave a record of their passing.
I don't know about AE's habits but when I flew I always had two thigh-mounted clipboards with tablets, approach plats, etc on which I recorded flight data etc. I think that, as a writer, AE had the materials and the inclination to record their experience.
-
Hi Harry. Thats a great article! I had no idea this runestone or it's controversy existed. This is precisely what I am thinking the castaways would have done. Leave something behind to identify themselves. Too bad it was likely on paper. :(
-
There was the 'G' anomoly near the 7 site ;)
-
I've often wondered about the 'G' anomoly; could it have been a cursive 'A' at one time and over the years the coral was moved by plant growth and critters? Would someone take the time and attempt to spell something out in cursive? One of those things we'll never know for sure...
-
Another interesting example is the story of the Lady Be Good diaries (http://www.ladybegood.net/diaries/index.htm). (This web site also has an interesting computer flight simulation of the end of the flight, and the discovery of the crew's remains.)
-
Chris
Link to info about "G" anomoly? First time that I am reading about it.
-
Link to info about "G" anomoly? First time that I am reading about it.
Info about the find. (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2001Vol_17/newmystery.pdf)
Analysis and guesses. (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2002Vol_18/hypotheses.pdf)
"Obscured" in 2007. (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Expeditions/NikuV/dailies2.html)
-
Thanks Marty for the info on the "G"anomoly. Perhaps it stood for "George" Putnam?
-
Thanks Marty for the info on the "G" anomaly. Perhaps it stood for "George" Putnam?
I think about all that we can say is that it is a constructed marker of some kind.
I believe someone put the marker there so that they or someone else could
come back to that exact spot.
So far as I know, that area hasn't been searched as intensively as the Seven Site.
We may never know who made the mark.
-
The "G" feature? How about this...
Possibly a 'spill' from someone carrying a bunch of collected white rubble. If someone was carrying a stash of white coral rubble (for whatever reason), then if the device they were using (bag, box, shirt, etc) to carry it ripped, broke open, lost balance, then the contents would 'spill' out creating the unusual pattern you see here. If the person rotated, spun-around trying to avoid and catch the spill, then the pattern would take on a more spiral orbit such as seen with the "G". The shape could very well have been any other elliptically based spiral orbit such an "S", an "O", a "C" or any other letter loosley resembling the shape of something spilling as you were turning to try and catch it. Just so happens the "G" was what karma had for that particular spill. The larger 'spot' within the shape of the "G" could simply be where the spill began or where it ended - causing a larger concentration of the contents to be there.
I doubt the "G" feature is anything done intentionally, but rather an accident (of sorts) from some other type of activity related to white rubble usage.
Which makes me want to think about the white arrowhead...
If in fact the arrowhead was a feature of very thin layer of white rubble, used to mark for aerial identification, then the thin color layer of 'white' would soon disappear to the sun and other elements, making it nearly un-identifiable years later. Since the original layer of white rubble would have to be 'harvested' from another location such as the lagoon and/or beach, then it would also have to be carried from that location. Thus, perhaps an explanation for the white "G" feature, from a spill while trying to create the arrowhead. Aren't the 'trails' seen in some aerial photos and maps located in that general vicinity?
Crazy thinking... possible explanation... thoughts?
-
The "G" feature? How about this...
Possibly a 'spill' from someone carrying a bunch of collected white rubble. If someone was carrying a stash of white coral rubble (for whatever reason), then if the device they were using (bag, box, shirt, etc) to carry it ripped, broke open, lost balance, then the contents would 'spill' out creating the unusual pattern you see here. If the person rotated, spun-around trying to avoid and catch the spill, then the pattern would take on a more spiral orbit such as seen with the "G". The shape could very well have been any other elliptically based spiral orbit such an "S", an "O", a "C" or any other letter loosley resembling the shape of something spilling as you were turning to try and catch it. Just so happens the "G" was what karma had for that particular spill. The larger 'spot' within the shape of the "G" could simply be where the spill began or where it ended - causing a larger concentration of the contents to be there.
I doubt the "G" feature is anything done intentionally, but rather an accident (of sorts) from some other type of activity related to white rubble usage.
Which makes me want to think about the white arrowhead...
If in fact the arrowhead was a feature of very thin layer of white rubble, used to mark for aerial identification, then the thin color layer of 'white' would soon disappear to the sun and other elements, making it nearly un-identifiable years later. Since the original layer of white rubble would have to be 'harvested' from another location such as the lagoon and/or beach, then it would also have to be carried from that location. Thus, perhaps an explanation for the white "G" feature, from a spill while trying to create the arrowhead. Aren't the 'trails' seen in some aerial photos and maps located in that general vicinity?
Crazy thinking... possible explanation... thoughts?
Hi Erik. I have to admit that your idea, IMHO, has real merit. A mere accident. I have to say that sometimes we read too much into things and your idea is not crazy but quite possible. It's the best explanation I have heard for this. Your posts are enjoyable to read. Thanks
-
Could the "G" be as simple as one of the 1938 settlers marking the atoll with a G for Gilbert, the island group from which they came?
Or for that matter G for Gardiner? or for "Gee, I don't know where I am?" (kidding)
-
G for Grave?
-
G for Grave?
That is one possibility that (I believe) has been eliminated by inspection of the ground nearby.
I'm not an archeologist, nor do I play one in my dreams, but I believe that Ric and the folks who have been to Niku can tell with a fair degree of reliability whether digging has taken place in a particular location. The white coral from the beach has been poured, accidentally or on purpose, on undisturbed ground.
The fellow who knows all about digging on Niku is Gary Quigg (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=009580785602718212762%3Anmcmqnbv5de&ie=UTF-8&q=gary+quigg&sa=Search&siteurl=www-open-opensocial.googleusercontent.com%2Fgadgets%2Fifr%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252Fcoop%252Fapi%252F009580785602718212762%252Fcse%252Fnmcmqnbv5de%252Fgadget%26container%3Dopen%26view%3Dhome%26lang%3Dall%26country%3DALL%26debug%3D0%26nocache%3D0%26sanitize%3D0%26v%3D838dfc00e4fe08f9%26source%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Ftighar.org%252Fnews%252Fhelp%252F82-how-do-i-search-tigharorg%26parent%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Ftighar.org%252Fnews%252Fhelp%252F82-how-do-i-search-tigharorg%26libs%3Dcore%253Acore.io%253Arpc%23st%3D%2525st%2525%26rpctoken%3D852957427#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=gary%20quigg&gsc.page=1). I would say that he is the strong, silent type, except there are too many stories about things he's said under various and sundry conditions. At any rate, no one has done more digging on the island than he since 1963. The other expert on digging is Tom King (http://tighar.org/wiki/Tom_King), TIGHAR's lead archeologist.
Unfortunately, neither Gary nor Tom participate in the Forum these days ...
-
The G feature could have served as a map of the island, for the purpose of explaining to a work group where the coconut palms were to be planted. It would not need to be "accurate" so much as "useful". The "snake head" is the village. The body of the snake runs from the village down the south-west side, rounds the point, and comes back up the north east side, mostly enclosing the lagoon. To someone who has only seen the island on foot, it might make sense when presented that way, especially if they weren't used to maps.
If a worker was in doubt, or asked where he was working, he could point it out on the "map". It would even have endured for future reference. What else did they have to work with? How was the planting planned, organized and directed?
-
John
Too logical. Then again the "G" could have meant "Go" as in Go over there. Kidding
-
Another interesting example is the story of the Lady Be Good diaries (http://www.ladybegood.net/diaries/index.htm). (This web site also has an interesting computer flight simulation of the end of the flight, and the discovery of the crew's remains.)
Great link Ricker, that march was more than impressive, its titanic.
The diaries make me wish even more that AE/FN managed to leave something to tell of their plight in the days after landing.
-
Would our intrepid castaways have created such a record? Where would it be? What would they have written it on? How would they store it? If they didn't write one then why not?
IMHO - We know that they had pens, pencils and paper so I consider the what a moot point, I think that if she was chronicaling her life as a castaway she would be carrying it on her person so as to have it handy to write in whenever the need or the chance arose. When the skeleton was found, no clothing was found so if it was in a pocket "GONE", the next logical choice would the sextant box and again "GONE". Exposed to the elements how long would paper last what before it disintegrated; 3 months? 1 year?
LTM,
Don
-
I agree that paper would be the logical choice Don. If you spent any time on a tropical island would the destructive nature of the weather and the environment not be noticed? Would you suspect that your paper records may not survive and try to protect them? Or would you suddenly realize that you aren't really "immortal" after all, and, as you lie there too weak to move, you determine you can't do anything about the paper diary now? Did the castaways have anything to store the papers in? Old tins from Norwich City food stores? Buried in a marker of stones (ok Marty, I know a search was made and no obvious markers found) or how about in the base of a banyan tree(?). Inside a thermos bottle? Inside luggage? All speculation at this point.
-
... ok Marty, I know a search was made and no obvious markers found ...
TIGHAR has not made an exhaustive search of every square foot of the island.
The island was inhabited.
It was surveyed.
TIGHAR has searched as best it can.
My belief is that it is unlikely that there is any cairn to be found.
I would love to read a diary from the castaway. Right now, the odds seem to be against it.
-
least we know she knew how to fish :)
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cgi-bin/getimage.exe?CISOROOT=/earhart&CISOPTR=693&DMSCALE=22.40478&DMWIDTH=600&DMHEIGHT=600&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&REC=12&DMTHUMB=1&DMROTATE=0
-
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cgi-bin/getimage.exe?CISOROOT=/earhart&CISOPTR=1157&DMSCALE=15.62175&DMWIDTH=750&DMHEIGHT=1023.38054572&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&REC=1&DMTHUMB=0&DMROTATE=0
look at what is used for markings "white washed stone"
:)
-
http://pipa.neaq.org/2009/09/searching-for-invasive-species-on.php
Searching for invasive species on Nikumaroro
Today, after a spectacular series of dives, PIPA director Tukabu Teroroko, Tuake Tema, Rob Barrel, Alan Dynner, Kate Madin, Larry Madin, Brian Skerry, Jeff Wildermuth and I landed on Nikumaroro to check for the presence of invasive species.
Invasive species are organisms that do not belong there and were brought by humans. Nikumaroro is uninhabited today, but over the centuries there had been periodic settlements. We were checking for rats, cats, rabbits, and other organisms that can harm the native animals and plants. Kiribati has successfully worked hard on Phoenix and McKean Islands to eradicate rats and rabbits. But Tukabu and I wanted to check for rats here on Nikumaroro. He knew there were cats on this island, but rats are more devastating to the hundreds of thousands of birds that call Nikumaroro home, and if he found strong evidence, he would plan an eradication.
We explored a small portion of the island, found old village structures, including a sunken room with coral walls that Tukabu said was perhaps an ancient marea, a place of worsiop. Tukabu looked at the fallen coconut fruits and reasoned that rats might not be too bad here, as they were not abundant bite marks on the coconut. Part of the long-term management plan for PIPA is to eradicate invasive species on all the islands to protect the amazing bird life on these islands; the Phoenix Islands are considered among the most important seabird nesting sites in the Pacific.
-
this is on that website aswell apparently 1 ov the propellers off norwich city
-
Richie
That is not one of the propellers from the NC. Fist, the prop of the NC would have been a lot bigger. Second, the whole back end of the ship went down into the deep water, we couldn't even find any significant part of it down to 300 meters with the ROV. I was one of the divers who inspected the reef below the remains of the NC stuck on the reef. There is no propeller there to be seen.
I find that photo at this link http://coralreefsystems.org/blog/shipwreck-ahoy (http://coralreefsystems.org/blog/shipwreck-ahoy)
The photo is attributed to David Obura, and carries the following caption:
"The black reef at the site of a shipwreck on uninhabited Nikumaroro (formerly Gardner Island) in the Phoenix Islands. Photograph by David Obura."
I'm very certain it was not taken on the reef at Niku. We would know about it if it was. I've emailed David to ask him to verify where the photo was taken.
Andrew
amck
-
Richie
The "sunken room" is most likely a babai pit, and it strikes me odd that Tukabu would not have recognized it as such. There are several on Niku, and they really are not quite large enough to "go into" other than walk through if you wanted. As described below, they are only a couple of yards deep - maybe a yard at most on Niku - and perhaps up to 12 yards long.
google babai pit and you will find many hits that say things like:
"The coconut economy of such coral islands as those of the Kiribati Group is a difficult one, demanding the utmost of the inhabitants. The idyllic life depends, not on the beneficence of Nature, but upon the resources and energies of the people. Here the human has had to develop techniques that permit survival. To grow taro or babai, the starchy root that is one of his main food crops, he must excavate a pit about twelve yards square and perhaps two yards deep - deep enough, anyway, to reach down to the table of fresh water that collects at sea-level below these porous islands where no fresh water flows." http://www.janeresture.com/kirricom/ (http://www.janeresture.com/kirricom/)
We've never seen a cat on Niku, other than the skeleton of one in the old village store, but we've seen abundant rats. The rats don't seem to have slowed down the bird population. I think one factor is that the Coco crabs and land crabs eat the rats (and probably cats too). In the rest of Micronesia, most of the Coco crabs have themselves been eaten, but not on Niku, so maybe the natural checks and balances still exist there.
amck
http://pipa.neaq.org/2009/09/searching-for-invasive-species-on.php
Searching for invasive species on Nikumaroro
Today, after a spectacular series of dives, PIPA director Tukabu Teroroko, Tuake Tema, Rob Barrel, Alan Dynner, Kate Madin, Larry Madin, Brian Skerry, Jeff Wildermuth and I landed on Nikumaroro to check for the presence of invasive species.
Invasive species are organisms that do not belong there and were brought by humans. Nikumaroro is uninhabited today, but over the centuries there had been periodic settlements. We were checking for rats, cats, rabbits, and other organisms that can harm the native animals and plants. Kiribati has successfully worked hard on Phoenix and McKean Islands to eradicate rats and rabbits. But Tukabu and I wanted to check for rats here on Nikumaroro. He knew there were cats on this island, but rats are more devastating to the hundreds of thousands of birds that call Nikumaroro home, and if he found strong evidence, he would plan an eradication.
We explored a small portion of the island, found old village structures, including a sunken room with coral walls that Tukabu said was perhaps an ancient marea, a place of worsiop. Tukabu looked at the fallen coconut fruits and reasoned that rats might not be too bad here, as they were not abundant bite marks on the coconut. Part of the long-term management plan for PIPA is to eradicate invasive species on all the islands to protect the amazing bird life on these islands; the Phoenix Islands are considered among the most important seabird nesting sites in the Pacific.
-
Richie
That is not one of the propellers from the NC. Fist, the prop of the NC would have been a lot bigger. Second, the whole back end of the ship went down into the deep water, we couldn't even find any significant part of it down to 300 meters with the ROV. I was one of the divers who inspected the reef below the remains of the NC stuck on the reef. There is no propeller there to be seen.
I find that photo at this link http://coralreefsystems.org/blog/shipwreck-ahoy (http://coralreefsystems.org/blog/shipwreck-ahoy)
The photo is attributed to David Obura, and carries the following caption:
"The black reef at the site of a shipwreck on uninhabited Nikumaroro (formerly Gardner Island) in the Phoenix Islands. Photograph by David Obura."
I'm very certain it was not taken on the reef at Niku. We would know about it if it was. I've emailed David to ask him to verify where the photo was taken.
Andrew
amck
Hi Andrew. What was the visibility like for both diver and ROV? Is it clear enough to conduct a search easily or is it cloudy where searching is slow due to visibility limitations?
-
Irvine Asks:
"Hi Andrew. What was the visibility like for both diver and ROV? Is it clear enough to conduct a search easily or is it cloudy where searching is slow due to visibility limitations?"
Visibility out on the reef was very good in 2001, you could easily see from 60 to probably near or beyond 100 ft would be my estimate. Same was true for the days when the ROV was in use during the 2010 expedition.
Visibility in the lagoon in 2001 was about 3-5 ft which made getting towed on a manta board behind the skiff interesting. At that time the Baureke passage was not open to the sea. In 2007 and 2010 when Baureke was open, the lagoon visibility was somewhat better, but we didn't do any diving in the lagoon on those trips, and the AUV didn't need good visibility to accomplish the side scan sonar survey of the lagoon bottom.
amck
-
Yeah, I am NOT a steamship expert by any means, but two things about that prop pic don't ring true for it being off the Norwich City - 1) not nearly big enough, the NC was a single-screw ship so the individual prop blades might have been at least 6-8 feet long each, and 2), the shape looks more "modern" than what the NC was probably using at that time period.