TIGHAR

Chatterbox => Extraneous exchanges => Topic started by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on April 06, 2011, 09:51:12 AM

Title: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on April 06, 2011, 09:51:12 AM
The Virgin Oceanic catamaran (http://www.virginoceanic.com/vehicles/catamaran/) will serve as the mothership for the DeepFlight Challenger sub, (http://www.virginoceanic.com/mission/) which is designed to reach the bottom of the Mariana Trench in the Pacific.

It sure would be nice if they'd do some deepwater laps around Niku on their way to or from the big dive.

Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Tom Swearengen on April 06, 2011, 10:29:52 AM
Already sent Ric a message about this---
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Chris Johnson on April 06, 2011, 12:30:15 PM
The Virgin Oceanic catamaran (http://www.virginoceanic.com/vehicles/catamaran/) will serve as the mothership for the DeepFlight Challenger sub, (http://www.virginoceanic.com/mission/) which is designed to reach the bottom of the Mariana Trench in the Pacific.

It sure would be nice if they'd do some deepwater laps around Niku on their way to or from the big dive.



Looks neat but I wouldn't want the motor to fail on at the bottom!
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 06, 2011, 12:41:55 PM
Impressive technology but way overkill for our needs.  We can do what we need to do without putting people down where, if something goes wrong, they're gonna die.
Rule #1: It's not worth hurting live people to look for dead ones.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on April 06, 2011, 01:31:55 PM
Impressive technology but way overkill for our needs.  We can do what we need to do without putting people down where, if something goes wrong, they're gonna die.

Rule #1: It's not worth hurting live people to look for dead ones.

My thought is that they wouldn't be TIGHAR people.

These folks are planning on sending a human or two to the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

Some sightseeing around Niku would be child's play for them.

They're planning to do five oceans and five record dives with the sub. (http://www.dailypilot.com/news/education/tn-dpt-0401-branson-20110331,0,4978373.story)

25,000 miles on that mother ship.

I know it's a long shot that they would help out or that any dives they could do would turn up good results.

But strange things do happen.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Tom Swearengen on April 06, 2011, 01:35:37 PM
But its the search to 'see' if anything is there. the trench is there. Whats at the bottom is anyones best guess---until they get there. Whats around the bottom of the reef at Niku? Hopefully parts of an Electra, but is it there? Thats the excitement of the search!
He'll go for it.
Tom
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Chris Johnson on April 06, 2011, 01:40:40 PM
No harm in trying but Sir Richard is British and i'm afraid AE does not have a high profile over here compared to the States.  The number of people I have to explain who she is to!

I didn't even know who she was until I was watching the Mallory and Irvine (British early 20C mountiners who vanished on Everest) expeditions that my brain said 'Oi didn't a group claim to find some American Pilot on a Island in the Pacific.

On the Plus side Sir Richard is an avid aviator so who knows.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Bill Lloyd on April 06, 2011, 06:55:32 PM
No harm in trying but Sir Richard is British and i'm afraid AE does not have a high profile over here compared to the States.  The number of people I have to explain who she is to!

I didn't even know who she was until I was watching the Mallory and Irvine (British early 20C mountiners who vanished on Everest) expeditions that my brain said 'Oi didn't a group claim to find some American Pilot on a Island in the Pacific.

On the Plus side Sir Richard is an avid aviator so who knows.
I would suspect that Richard knows about AE and the search. As I recall he was involved with the Steve Fossett search a couple of years ago and if approached he might be interested in finding the Electra.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Tom Swearengen on April 07, 2011, 05:30:22 AM
I'm sure that Ric is intrigued by this, but there may be contractual issues with Discovery on other search partners. I think the more assets that can be brought in, the better the chance of finding parts of the Electra, and in the long term, save some money.
But---what could it hurt to ask?
Tom
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 07, 2011, 12:44:34 PM
I'm sure that Ric is intrigued by this, but there may be contractual issues with Discovery on other search partners.

There are no contractual issues with Discovery about who we select to conduct the search.  We'll pick the technology and the contractor that, in our estimation, will do the best job.  We won't go hat-in-hand to deep pockets attached to big egos.  That's a good way to lose control of a project.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Tom Swearengen on April 07, 2011, 01:25:18 PM
I agree. I was thinking that any help could be useful.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Bill Lloyd on April 07, 2011, 08:09:35 PM
  We won't go hat-in-hand to deep pockets attached to big egos.  That's a good way to lose control of a project.
What is the status of your fundraising for the deep sea search?  What is your primary method of fundraising?
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Thom Boughton on April 07, 2011, 11:43:25 PM
No harm in trying but Sir Richard is British and i'm afraid AE does not have a high profile over here compared to the States.  The number of people I have to explain who she is to!


I would bet bottom dollar that Branson not only knows who AE was ...but also knows her full history and every theory as to her eventual plight.  And if one could make a plausible case for it, I suspect it might not be terribly difficult to coerce him to do such a survey.  For no other reason than, should it prove successful, the publicity would be huge.  And it appears that Sir Richard is always quite motivated by publicity about Sir Richard.

I also believe in what Ric has said....'going hat-in-hand is a good way to lose control of the project'.  And THAT would be a crying shame.




TB
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Bill Lloyd on April 10, 2011, 08:24:00 AM
I would bet bottom dollar that Branson not only knows who AE was ...but also knows her full history and every theory as to her eventual plight.  And if one could make a plausible case for it, I suspect it might not be terribly difficult to coerce him to do such a survey.  For no other reason than, should it prove successful, the publicity would be huge.  And it appears that Sir Richard is always quite motivated by publicity about Sir Richard.
TB
Based on his aviation activities and past involvements Branson might be entirely intrigued with the idea of finding the Electra. Due to the publicity that this project has received lately, there may be other "deep pockets" out there with investment money that might be interested, however, such comments by TIGHAR that "we won't go hat-in-hand to deep pockets attached to big egos" does not help the cause as some people would consider those comments offensive.  If TIGHAR is as under funded as they say, then perhaps a well organized fund raising approach to viable investors is in order.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 10, 2011, 08:57:25 AM
...such comments by TIGHAR that "we won't go hat-in-hand to deep pockets attached to big egos" does not help the cause as some people would consider those comments offensive.  If TIGHAR is as under funded as they say, then perhaps a well organized fund raising approach to viable investors is in order.

Thank you for your advice.  Perhaps your experience as a fund raiser has been different from mine.  I've been the principal fund raiser for this organization for 26 years.  I won't say that it has been easy and I don't think I've been very good at it. There has never been as much money as we've really needed to do everything we've wanted to do. But I can assure you that I've mounted countless well organized fund raising approaches to viable contributors (we can't solicit "investors").  I've made the mistake of accepting big donations from deep pockets with big egos.  I can show you the scars.  And yes, I've offended people and will undoubtedly do so again. Perhaps I have offended you. But I've found the money for ten trips to Nikumaroro without surrendering control of the organization or the project. It is my hope and intention to do so again.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on April 10, 2011, 09:26:00 AM
... But I've found the money for ten trips to Nikumaroro without surrendering control of the organization or the project. It is my hope and intention to do so again.

I wonder whether it is conceivable that one could partner with someone with deep pockets (and a thoroughly exellent submarine) without "surrending control of the organization or the project."

There is a lot of territory to search.

It seems to me that Virgin Oceanic has the kind of gizmo that should be good at doing that kind of search.

"One observation is worth 10,000 expert opinions."

In this case, it seems that you have decided in advance of investigation not to talk with Branson on the grounds that, being wealthy and having an ego as big as all outdoors, that the only way to cooperate with him would be to surrender control to him.

You may be right.  But it seems to me to be a small risk to actually talk to the guy about what TIGHAR has accomplished and seeks to accomplish in its next expedition.  Perhaps the contact with him would confirm your prejudice; perhaps not.  Strange things do happen. 
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 10, 2011, 09:29:45 AM
Branson's gizmo is not appropriate to our needs. We're actively working some better possibilities.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Ted G Campbell on April 10, 2011, 06:27:33 PM
Ric,
It's called a "joint venture".
Ted Campbell
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Irvine John Donald on April 10, 2011, 07:09:21 PM
I think that Ric knows what he is looking for and right now it's not a partner like Branson. Sir Richard, like many rich and/or famous men have huge egos. Ric has been chasing this mystery down for many years. To be this determined he needs to be there at the end. Standing in front of TIGHAR as it's spokesman announcing the mystery is solved. He has found the right way to fund expeditions and make significant finds. It's like hunting for a diamond ring in a giant landfill site. You work at it for a big chunk of your life. Then some guy wanders by that hasn't shown any interest before and finds it. Who do the press go to? Who gets the prize?  Ric doesn't need lessons or advice about partnering from us.  He has been partnering with the public and every TIGHAR member who ever joined and the corporate sponsors.  He needs decent funding to get the right underwater search gear.  The electra is down there.  My two cents.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 10, 2011, 07:11:56 PM
Thank you sir.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Monty Fowler on April 11, 2011, 10:54:08 AM
Not to coin a phrase, but Ric "doesn't want to get on the cart."

Darn, there I go again ...  ;D

P.S. - the next check is in the mail.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Bill Lloyd on April 11, 2011, 11:10:21 AM
...such comments by TIGHAR that "we won't go hat-in-hand to deep pockets attached to big egos" does not help the cause as some people would consider those comments offensive.  If TIGHAR is as under funded as they say, then perhaps a well organized fund raising approach to viable investors is in order.

Thank you for your advice.  Perhaps your experience as a fund raiser has been different from mine.  I've been the principal fund raiser for this organization for 26 years.  I won't say that it has been easy and I don't think I've been very good at it. There has never been as much money as we've really needed to do everything we've wanted to do. But I can assure you that I've mounted countless well organized fund raising approaches to viable contributors (we can't solicit "investors").  I've made the mistake of accepting big donations from deep pockets with big egos.  I can show you the scars.  And yes, I've offended people and will undoubtedly do so again. Perhaps I have offended you. But I've found the money for ten trips to Nikumaroro without surrendering control of the organization or the project. It is my hope and intention to do so again.

I have not been offended. I am just making observations on what I see. It is just not good business policy to go around offending people that you do not really know and who could possibly benefit your endeavors.

You obviously have had success in funding the ten trips that you have made to Nikumaroro and the evidence that you have collected is very good. It is certainly not easy to organize and carry out an expedition to some remote island in the ocean as you have done ten times. 

It appears that more funding would have allowed the expeditions more suitable transportation to the island and once there, faster transportation of the work parties in and around the work sites. The impression that I get from the photos and videos is that a large amount of time and energy was spend riding in motor boats and hiking with lunch boxes and equipment to and from work sites. Helicopter transportation would be very advantageous.

You should not be overly concerned about surrendering control of your organization. TIGHAR is a registered corporation in the State of Delaware (https://delecorp.delaware.gov/tin/GINameSearch.jsp). Enter file number 2053299 to see details. The registered agent listed is Richard E. Gillespie which is you of course. Unless you decide to change the charter, then you will remain in control.

As a non profit corporation, you are allowed to receive grants and donations.  Investors cannot be taken on in the traditional sense because you do not sell stock and have shareholders, however, investors can participate in a non equity basis.  All donations to a non profit are tax deductible.  I am sure that you already know all of this, just my observations. 
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Irvine John Donald on April 11, 2011, 10:56:50 PM
I'm struggling with your points Bill. Are you suggesting that Sir Richard Branson would spend his time and money to assist with the search for the Electra and agree NOT to seek publicity if it was found? That somehow Ric would be able to step up and take the credit because he is the registered agent of TIGHAR?  Have you watched a super bowl game? Who gets the credit for the win?  I don't think the owner gets interviewed first. The player who got the team into the winning position does.  Then the coach. Then maybe the owner, but by then everyone has headed to the bathroom or changed the channel. The owner can't tell the media who to interview. If Ric agreed to take assistance from Sir Richard there would be strings attached. Ric has told you that he has done this before and has the scars to show for it.  He is working from past experience.  What makes you believe Branson would be any different?  Look at Sir Richards record of achievements. Very impressive and I think he deserves his knighthood for all his marvelous adventures. But every interview at the conclusion of his adventures is a video with him in the forefront talking about "his" success. Not standing behind someone else and listening. Even AE wanted the spotlight.  She got it. Not the people who got her there.

BTW. Suggesting what "could" have been done on past expeditions is counter productive.  Of course he could have done more research with more funding.  But that's in the past and he admits to not being perfect.  (But who is?) Put it positively and look at how much was done with so little.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Hilary Christine Olson on April 12, 2011, 06:45:58 AM
Just my 2 cents here .The search for unarguable  proof on how  AE & Noonan met her fate has been going on for how many years..74?   There has been multiple theories out there over the years and many folks with deep pockets in the search . I am sure if the interest was there more could have done it on their own $$ without  aid from TIGHAR but they aslso have  other commitments & projects they fund ........................Also  I believe Tighar is not all about glory and,"I told you so," but about  Historic Aircraft Recovery of which The Earhart Project is one of several. TIGHAR has worked hard on this and when the ,"smoking gun " is disccovered it will be  great to give AE  and FN Peace.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Tom Swearengen on April 12, 2011, 07:21:15 AM
I really didn't mean to start a fight over the Branson submirsible project. TIGHAR, for all its done, is still lacking sufficient funds to do the expeditions that Rics wants to do. I mearly made the suggestion because Branson has the deep pockets, is an adventurer, likes aviation, and was going to be in the area anyway. I havent seen any other group step up to help--Ballard included. My thoughts were certainly well intended towards TIGHAR, Ric, and Amelia.
Tom
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Irvine John Donald on April 12, 2011, 07:41:22 AM
Well said Hilary.  I believe TIGHAR has been the front runner in "Finding Amelia" and the search for what happened may have been dropped completely without the persistence of Ric and the many TIGHARS to keep pushing. It will be satisfying to them to find that unarguable piece. But as you so rightly point out, it will give peace to AE and FN, and their current relatives, peace of mind in knowing what happened.

To Tom's post.... I don't think it's a fight, but rather a discussion.  Everyone is entitled to express their opinion and when it comes to this mystery there are many.  When something takes so long to solve there is bound to be retracing of steps and rethinking the same points. Over and over. This is healthy dialogue in case something has been missed.  Well intentioned dialogue.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Ted G Campbell on April 12, 2011, 07:22:53 PM
I still say a well structured "Joint Venture" with the likes of Branson should be given serious consideration.

If he's in the area he just might make a visit to Niku on his own and if he finds the L10 where would this leave TIGHAR?

Ted
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Dale O. Beethe on April 12, 2011, 07:54:42 PM
I still say a well structured "Joint Venture" with the likes of Branson should be given serious consideration.

If he's in the area he just might make a visit to Niku on his own and if he finds the L10 where would this leave TIGHAR?

Ted
I'd guess it would leave TIGHAR about the same place as it would be if the "Joint Venture" was undertaken.  If Mr. Branson finds the Electra it will still prove TIGHAR's theory, and at least some people will realize he wouldn't have known where to look without the work Ric and others have done previously.  The ones who wouldn't take the time to learn the truth are probably not people who care much anyway. 
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Bill Lloyd on April 12, 2011, 10:41:13 PM
Are you suggesting that Sir Richard Branson would spend his time and money to assist with the search for the Electra and agree NOT to seek publicity if it was found?
No, I don' think that is an issue nor should it be an issue.

Quote
That somehow Ric would be able to step up and take the credit because he is the registered agent of TIGHAR? 
Ric has previously stated that he does not want to lose control of his organization. The legal issue is that he is protected by the law in that Branson nor anyone else cannot dissolve the charter, thus Ric remains in control of TIGHAR. Who steps up and takes credit is simply not an issue.

Quote
Have you watched a super bowl game? Who gets the credit for the win?
That is irrelevant in regards to the search for Amelia and Fred.

Quote
Suggesting what "could" have been done on past expeditions is counter productive.
I disagree. Learning from past experiences is a proven principle of good management.



Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Irvine John Donald on April 13, 2011, 12:07:50 AM
And your last point Bill is important. "Learning from past experiences is a proven principle of good management". Ric told you he had past experience in dealing with people with big egos and had the scars to prove it. So you agree that as a good manager he should learn from his past experiences and not approach Branson?

"Learning from experience is a proven principle of good management" is correct Bill but I sure get this feeling you don't think Ric is right in this matter.  Please correct me if I'm wrong. But don't get me wrong. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion just as I'm also entitled to mine and Ric to his.

I read these forums and respect everyones opinion.  Read Ric's responses to many of the points in the forums. As the head of TIGHAR he has to be careful in what he says and how he says it. He really doesn't want to offend anyone but also doesn't want to be offended, especially by his own members "second guessing" his decisions. It's not that he just doesn't want to seek help from "big ego" adventurers with deep pockets.  He has done that and it didn't work out. How much clearer does he have to be?

 P.S. After the last few posts I feel like I'm ready to " climb on the cart". In fact Bill may be ready to help me onto it. LOL.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Irvine John Donald on April 13, 2011, 12:15:31 AM
I still say a well structured "Joint Venture" with the likes of Branson should be given serious consideration.

If he's in the area he just might make a visit to Niku on his own and if he finds the L10 where would this leave TIGHAR?

Ted
I'd guess it would leave TIGHAR about the same place as it would be if the "Joint Venture" was undertaken.  If Mr. Branson finds the Electra it will still prove TIGHAR's theory, and at least some people will realize he wouldn't have known where to look without the work Ric and others have done previously.  The ones who wouldn't take the time to learn the truth are probably not people who care much anyway. 

I think this is an excellent point Dale. Well said.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on April 13, 2011, 05:03:26 AM
... It's not that he just doesn't want to seek help from "big ego" adventurers with deep pockets.  He has done that and it didn't work out.

This is called "stereotyping."  It's also known in logic as a hasty generalization. 

"I've met that kind before.  They're all one and the same.  No need for me to treat them as individuals."

My opinion is that a thorough search is going to take time and money on a scale that TIGHAR has not yet reached.  One way to get time and money is to talk to people who have a lot of both.

If it is the case that the mothership and the manned sub are not the right technology to use in the search, that is a different and, in my view, a more respectable reason for not talking with the folks who hope to use it to set five records in five oceans.
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Bill Lloyd on April 19, 2011, 08:22:26 AM
Richard will now get his legs shaved (http://realbusiness.co.uk/news/richard-branson-auctions-off-leg-shaving).  ;D
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Tom Swearengen on April 20, 2011, 05:29:41 AM
Thanks Jeff, and I agree with you. Bransons sub isnt equipped to do what TIGHAR needs. But, it can get there, as others could. My thoughts were that were aren't real sure of the depth of the ocean floor off the reef. Bringing another 500-1000 meters of cable for a ROV may ----or not  be enough. It would be a real shame to think the ocean floor is at 1500 meters, and it be at 2500 or 3000 meters, and the fuselege or wings of the Electra be just out of sight.
Actually, this is probably one of those never ending debates. Like the meaning of "gas running low". For the sake of discussion, are there any other submirsibles around with the capability, and availability? I think the University of Hawaii has one, and one in Hong Kong, or Singapore, but I really dont know. For sure the NAVY has one, but that is out of the question.

Is there any other way????
Tom
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Ted G Campbell on April 20, 2011, 08:03:03 PM
A well crafted "Joint Ventue" will satisfy both parties.
Ted Campbe

Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Tom Swearengen on April 26, 2011, 01:53:25 PM
News today about Triton Submarines---going to the ocean depths. HUMMM----Ok--sorry I started this again-
Tom
Title: Re: Virgin Oceanic & DeepFlight Challenger sub
Post by: Don Dollinger on May 03, 2011, 09:47:25 AM
Quote
Bransons sub isnt equipped to do what TIGHAR needs. But, it can get there, as others could. My thoughts were that were aren't real sure of the depth of the ocean floor off the reef. Bringing another 500-1000 meters of cable for a ROV may ----or not  be enough. It would be a real shame to think the ocean floor is at 1500 meters, and it be at 2500 or 3000 meters, and the fuselege or wings of the Electra be just out of sight.

I couldn't agree more.  If nothing else it will at least provide a bit of very valuable data, that being just how deep is the ocean floor in that particular area, not a guess but the actual real data.  He may find what Ric is looking for or he may not but at least Ric will gain the knowledge of how deep he will need to go to ensure that he is able to explore it all, once and for all.

Knowing what little I know of Branson, one thing I do believe is that if approached he would probably be salivating at the fact that he may be able to put another feather in his cap as the one who located the smoking gun.  He will be in the area anyhow and he would not have known where to look if it where not for all the fine work that TIGHAR has done over the years.  A little shared glory is not at all a bad thing and if anything is discovered that may be a part of the Electra, it would probably be alot easier to get donor dollars to go back and prove it by recovering or at least examining it closer after the fact.  I would think that if Branson did see a big hulking radial engine in the depths his submersible would not have the capabilities nor would he have the knowledge of what to look for to prove or disprove it is from Amelia's Electra and it would pinpoint for TIGHAR just where they need to concentrate their efforts.  As it just a theory, it is very possible that Nessie is something entirely different then believed and she landed on the other side of the Norwich City or for that matter on the other side of Niku.  Very unlikely, but not impossible either.

LTM,

Don