TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Ric Gillespie on November 02, 2016, 07:41:48 AM
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This may belong in Extraneous Exchanges but I've been catching grief from an emailer (who won't give his name) who claims that I have misrepresented the history of Lockheed 10E c/n 1042 - the only surviving Electra that was built as a 10E. I've always understood that the airplane was purchased from the defunct Wings and Wheels Museum in Florida by Grace McGuire after it was damaged in a hangar fire. My accuser says that's not right but doesn't seem to be able to provide documentation.
What I know about Grace McGuire and c/n 1042 is based mostly on personal recollection (and we all know how reliable that is). It's a sad story and worth telling, but we have to be sure we have it right. Can anyone find some good source material?
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This may belong in Extraneous Exchanges but I've been catching grief from an emailer (who won't give his name) who claims that I have misrepresented the history of Lockheed 10E c/n 1042 - the only surviving Electra that was built as a 10E. I've always understood that the airplane was purchased from the defunct Wings and Wheels Museum in Florida by Grace McGuire after it was damaged in a hangar fire. My accuser says that's not right but doesn't seem to be able to provide documentation.
What I know about Grace McGuire and c/n 1042 is based mostly on personal recollection (and we all know how reliable that is). It's a sad story and worth telling, but we have to be sure we have it right. Can anyone find some good source material?
Intverview with McGuire (http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-san-diegan-on-the-trail-of-amelia-earhart-2012aug02-story.html): "McGuire scoured the country for the same type of airplane Earhart flew on her last flight. It took two years before she and others found one: A 1935 L-10E Electra, tucked behind a Florida airplane museum and rotting."
Owned it for 34 years in 2016 (http://www.aviationpros.com/press_release/12244646/original-sister-ship-to-earharts-plane-to-make-final-journey-home-to-atchison-kansas-birthplace-of-amelia-earhart), so purchased it in 1982.
The Museum was called "Wings and Wheels" (http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/McGuireGrace/11194.htm):
"On February 18, 1970 the plane was sold to Zepherhills Parachute Center, Florida, and reregistered N355B it was used for sky-diving operations. Read this story about the pictured sky-diving episode.
"The plane was transfered to Vikings of Denmark Inc. on October 1, 1976 and was operated by Raeford Parachute Center in Raeford, North Carolina. Three years later, on September 15, 1979 the aircraft was sold to Dolf Overton and stored at Wings and Wheels Museum in Orlando, Florida.
"New Jersey flight instructor Grace McGuire purchased the plane August 3, 1982 and named the old Electra 'Muriel' after Amelia Earhart's sister Grace Muriel Earhart Morrissey. Grace met Muriel in the late 1980s at the Wings Club in New York City, the oldest aviation club in the world, and they became good friends and traveling companions. Grace plans to someday publish letters exchanged between them."
Nice pictures here (http://www.airport-data.com/forums/post-20078.html), with the same basic story.
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Thanks Marty. No mention of a hangar fire, so apparently I was wrong about that. I'll post a correction on Facebook and we should correct the entry in the Ameliapedia Electra Survivors (https://tighar.org/wiki/Electra_Survivors_Project)
At one point early in the Earhart Project we solicited funding from United Technologies (Pratt & Whitney, Hamilton Standard, Sikorski, etc.). We were not successful, but in the course of those discussions I learned that United Technologies had planned to fund Grace McGuire's proposed re-enactment of Earhart's flight using cn 1042 until they learned that Grace did not have a multi-engine rating. For many years Grace kept the airplane at Lakehurst Naval Air Station and then for a while it was in a hangar at little Woodbridge Airport in New Jersey. When we were first trying to figure out 2-2-V-1 I tried to get her to let us look at the airplane but she declined. I found Grace difficult to work with. She's a dedicated Crashed & Sank advocate.
I also remember that at one point before she moved it to California, the airplane was parked and Monmouth County Airport in NJ and advertised as being for sale.
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Thanks Marty. No mention of a hangar fire, so apparently I was wrong about that. I'll post a correction on Facebook and we should correct the entry in the Ameliapedia Electra Survivors (https://tighar.org/wiki/Electra_Survivors_Project)
Fixed.
"Restoring Muriel" (http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2010/mar/03/feature-restoring-muriel/):
"McGuire heard that an aviation museum in Orlando, Florida thought it had an old plane similar to one Earhart had flown on historic flights. McGuire immediately traveled south, where she learned that curators weren’t even showing the plane inside the museum. Instead, they had stuck it out back, to weather the elements. The museum’s owner indicated he was willing to sell the plane, and, with the help of some backers, McGuire bought it. Only after closely reading the bill of sale did she realize what she had."
"1000 Aircraft Photos: GRACE McGUIRE COLLECTION, No. 11194. Lockheed 10-E Electra (N1602D c/n 1042) "Muriel" (http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/McGuireGrace/11194.htm):
"It took nearly two years to find the same model plane as Amelia Earhart's in order to realize my ambition to recreate her flight. Christie's in NY was auctioning off the contents of the Wings and Wheels Museum in Orlando, Florida, but my L-10E was not included in the sale due to its awful condition and was left to rot in the back lot ... it was going to be cut up and sold for scrap! Muriel was the saddest looking plane you have ever seen but I had a feeling we belonged together. It was instant love the moment we met. So I purchased Muriel and it was trucked to Rentschler Airport in Hartford, Connecticut, to be restored for the flight. My first mechanic was Ward Oakly who was one of Earhart's mechanics. Ward called in Eddie Gorsky, Amelia's mechanic on her 1932 Atlantic flight."
Christie's auction (http://www.lostparks.com/timeline.html): December 6, 1981.
Lyme Net Europe (http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=176): "After a two-year search, a tip from Christie's Auction House sent her to the parking lot of the Wings and Wheels Museum in Orlando, Florida."
New York Times, 4 December 1981 (http://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/04/arts/auctions-vintage-plane-sale.html): "Vintage automobiles and airplanes from the Wings and Wheels Museum in Orlando, Fla., which is housed in a hangar at Orlando International Airport, will be auctioned there Sunday by Christie's of New York. A Sopwith Camel, the World War I British single-seater fighter plane, is expected to command a six-figure price. Also included are a 1934 Packard five-passenger dual-cowl Phaeton, which may sell for as much as $250,000; a 1945 Heinkel He.111, the World War II Luftwaffe medium bomber, up to $150,000, and a 1930 Duesenberg five-passenger Berline, up to $150,000."
"The Vintage Airplane," February 1982 (http://members.eaavintage.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/VA-Vol-10-No-2-Feb-1982.pdf):
"Everyone in the aviation world must have known about the sale of this tremendous collection of aircraft and automobiles with all the advance publicity it received. Handled by Christie's, an international auction firm, the big day was December 6, 1981 in Orlando, FL. The sale was attended by 400 registered bidders and about 600 observers."
This articles lists both a 10-A and a 10-E as "Not Sold." The expected price for the 10-E was $14,000. The article continues:
"The Wings and Wheels Museum was established four years ago when two not-for-profit organizations and a private collector pooled their resources to form one of the largest collections of classic aircraft and vintage automobiles in the world. In a hangar leased from the Orlando International Airport, the museum displayed the cars and planes supplemented by exhibitions of photographs, prints, and models as well as films tracing the history of transportation between two World Wars. Having lost their lease and not being able to find suitable space, the museum trustees decided to disband.
"Patrick Lindsey, a director of Christie's International came to Orlando from the firm's headquarters in London, England to conduct the auction. "
The bottom line: No evidence of a hangar fire; no evidence that the airplane had been damaged by fire. It was just kind of flown out, I guess.
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Note that Panair do Brasil was Pan American's Brazilian subsidiary in the 1930s: it was founded as NYRBA do Brasil, and acquired by Pan Am along with the rest of NYRBA. Pan American also owned a majority interest in Cia Mexicana de Aviacion during the 1930s, and the airline operated in concert with Pan Am. Finally, Pacific Alaska Airlines was also a Pan American subsidiary. So, while c/n 1042 was repeatedly re-registered in the 1930s, it stayed within the Pan American system.
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What follows is the registration history for Lockheed 10E, C/N 1042 as gleaned from the FAA registration records:
11/12/35 - Registered as NC-14972 -Lockheed Aircraft Corporation
11/19/35 - Sold for $10 to Pan American Aviation Supply Corporation, 135 East 42nd St, NY NY
12/3/35 - Sold to Compania Mexicana de Aviacion, S. A., Mexico
3/3/36 - US registration NC-14972 cancelled, operated under Mexican registration XA-BJC
6/14/37 - Mexican Registration XA-BJC Cancelled at the request of Compania Mexicana De Aviacion, S. A.
6/14/37 - Sold for $1.00 to Pan American Airways, Inc. 135 East 42nd St, NY NY
6/21/37 - US registration NC-14972 reinstated
10/19/38 - Transfer From PAA, Inc. to Panair Do Brazil, S.A., Rio De Janeiro Brazil
10/31/38 - US registration NC-14972 Cancelled due to being “Sold into South America”
1938 to 1955 - Operated in Brazil as PP-VAP. Eventually owned by VARIG
12/15/55 - Cancelation of PP-VAP by VARIG due to being “re-exported to the United states”
1/23/56 - Sold to Don Cardiff, 60 East 42nd St. NYC, NY
1/23/56 - Registered by Cardiff as CAA Registration number N2068A
3/16/56 - N2068A Sold to Provincetown - Boston Airline, Inc.
6/12/57 - N2068A Re-registered as N35PB by Provincetown - Boston Airlines
2/18/70 - N35PB Re-registered as N355B by Provincetown - Boston Airlines
11/24/70 - N355B Sold for $10,000 to Zephyrhills Parachute Cener, Inc., Zephyrhills, Fla
10/1/77 1976 - N355B Sold to Vikings of Denmark, Inc., Denmark SC
1/13/177 Registered by Vikings of Denmark [Edit added 6/22/17]
9/15/79 - N355B Sold to Dolph Overton, Smithfield NC
1/14/81 - N355B Registered in the names of Dolph Overton, Wings and Wheels, Orlando Fla
8/3/82 - N355B Sold to Grace McGuire, Rumson NJ. Registered as N355B
3/19/83 - N355B Re-registered as N1602D by Grace McGuire
6/27/84 - N1602D Sold by Grace McGuire to United Technologies Corporation
2/22/85 - N1602D Sold by United Technologies Corporation to Grace McGuire
3/3/85 - N1602D Re-registered by Grace McGuire - “A resident alien, with alien registration No xxx-xxx-xxx” [edited in case there is a privacy issue]
10/31/96 - N1602D Registration renewed by Grace McGuire
4/7/11 - N1602D Registration renewed by Grace McGuire
2/28/14 - N1602D Registration renewed by Grace McGuire
7/8/2016 - N1602D Sold to Atchison Amelia Earhart Foundation for $700,000 (Hard to read, may be $200K)
7/8/16 - N1602D Registered by Atchison Amelia Earhart Foundation
Some interesting twists in that history. The sale to United Technologies and back to Grace McGuire is particularly interesting. Ric pointed out that UT was a sponsor for a while, but who knew they took ownership of the aircraft for a while.
Cheers
Andrew
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That's great information Andrew. My understanding of United Technology's brief ownership of the airplane is based upon what I was told years ago when we were seeking sponsorship form Pratt & Whitney (part of United Tech.). They were thoroughly soured on sponsoring anything to do with Amelia Earhart.
Grace successfully pitched her world flight plan to UT and they agreed to fund the trip, including buying the airplane. When they discovered that Grace had misrepresented her flying experience and qualifications (she didn't even have a multi-engine rating) they backed out and sold the airplane back to McGuire. Undeterred, Grace continued to work on rebuilding the airplane at her own expense.
I knew she was born in Scotland but the description of her as a "resident alien" suggests that in 1985 she was not an American citizen. I don't know her present status.
The aircraft was sold to the Atchison Amelia Earhart Foundation last summer but, reportedly, Grace retains some degree of control. Not sure how that works.
One remaining question is whether the machine is airworthy. That was always Grace's goal and I know that the engines were run when the plane was in California but I don't think it was ever flown. As far as I know, Atchison has no plans to fly it.
Curiously, N1206D has not been rebuilt as a replica of Earhart's ship. It sports a loop antenna and a window in the cabin door (ala NR16020) but all of the standard cabin windows are there. There is a PAA logo on the fuselage but it's not like the plane's original PANAIR paint job. Like the Navy's Lockheed 10A in Pensacola, it's a generic Electra with a nod to Amelia. The only close-but-no-cigar replica of NR16020 is the Museum of Flight's (formerly Finch and Kammerer) converted 10A flown around the world by Linda Finch in 1997.
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Thanks Ric, interesting.
The last airworthiness record the FAA has was a major repair and alteration form 337 dated 4/14/1969 for an engine overhaul, so it would appear that nothing that has been done to the aircraft since has been reported to the FAA.
The last application for an airworthiness certificate in the FAA records was submitted by Provincetown- Boston on 7/3/56.
Makes you wonder a bit about the records the FAA has, but my guess is that it is not in airworthy condition, and hasn't been for a while.
amck
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my guess is that it is not in airworthy condition, and hasn't been for a while.
I think that's a good guess. Here's an interesting bit of trivia. The 10E that ditched off Cape Cod in 1967 was operated by Provincetown-Boston Airlines, the same outfit that operated c/n 1042 from 1957 to 1970. My recollection is that PBA ran between P-town and Boston during the summer months and routes in Florida during the winter. Apparently the big-engined Electras worked well for them.
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Tighar’s Mission Statement, as posted here: https://tighar.org/about.htm
TIGHAR (pronounced “tiger”) is the acronym for The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery, a non-profit foundation dedicated to promoting responsible aviation archaeology and historic preservation. TIGHAR’s activities include:
1.) Compiling and verifying reports of rare and historic aircraft surviving in remote areas.
2.) Conducting investigations and recovery expeditions in co-operation with museums and collections worldwide
3.) Serving as a voice for integrity, responsibility, and professionalism in the field of aviation historic preservation
TIGHAR maintains no collection of its own, nor does it engage in the restoration or buying and selling of artifacts. The foundation devotes its resources to the saving of endangered historic aircraft wherever they may be found, and to the education of the international public in the need to preserve the relics of the history of flight.
I’ll leave it up to you and your Board of Directors to ultimately decide either way, but in my personal opinion the contributors in this forum failed miserably in living up to the above mission. Unfortunately and as a result, misinformation about Lockheed 10-E c/n 1042 has been perpetrated by those that maintain this website, to the detriment of the general aviation public.
1.) Forum entry: In response to Greg Daspit’s post entry “a chance to look at a genuine 10E components in person is good news" Ric Gillespie (Executive Director/Administrator) replied “Yes and no, Grace McGuire has been rebuilding this beast since she bought it in the 1970’s after it had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire.” Mr. Gillespie’s statement “it had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire” is grossly, and I mean grossly incorrect. Mr. Gillespie made this statement as absolute fact, not even as a supposition, and that is truly unfortunate. None of the other “experts” that frequent this forum seem to step up to even challenge Mr. Gillespie’s misstatement.
2.) Mr. Gillespie also stated that he has “been catching grief from an emailer (who won't give his name) who claims that I have misrepresented the history of Lockheed 10E c/n 1042 - the only surviving Electra that was built as a 10E. I've always understood that the airplane was purchased from the defunct Wings and Wheels Museum in Florida by Grace McGuire after it was damaged in a hangar fire. My accuser says that's not right but doesn't seem to be able to provide documentation.” First of all, Mr. Gillespie never asked the name of the “emailer”. Also, in this statement, Mr. Gillespie stated that he “always understood” that the 10-E was damaged in a hangar fire. What exactly does “always understood” mean, when Mr. Gillespie has already stated that the “hangar fire” story as absolute fact? And by the way, is it common practice to ask for documentation to disprove a (mis)statement, when there was no documentation provided for that (mis)statement in the first place?
3.) Mr. Gillespie also posted that he found Grace McGuire “difficult to work with.” Could it be that she rebuffed his efforts because he was of the incorrect mindset that the 10-E “had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire”? If I had been on the other side of a conversation of that nature, I would have probably tried to run someone like that out of town.
4.) I am not disputing Mr. Andrew M McKenna’s statement that his 10-E information was “gleaned from the FAA registration records”, but I do dispute the implication of some of it’s information. His post includes the line “10/1/77 - N355B Sold to Vikings of Denmark, Inc., Denmark SC”. I know for a fact that Bobby Frierson (owner of “Vikings of Denmark”, a skydiving operation based out of Barnwell SC) already had possession of the 10-E as of April 16, 1977, because my friends and I made several skydives out of the 10-E on both the 16th and 17th, over Rocky Point, NC, during Wilmington’s (NC) Azalea Festival weekend.
5.) Mr. McKenna states that “The last airworthiness record the FAA has was a major repair and alteration form 337 dated 4/14/1969 for an engine overhaul, so it would appear that nothing that has been done to the aircraft since has been reported to the FAA. The last application for an airworthiness certificate in the FAA records was submitted by Provincetown- Boston on 7/3/56. Makes you wonder a bit about the records the FAA has, but my guess is that it is not in airworthy condition, and hasn't been for a while.” Although I am not disputing what the FAA has in its current records, I find it hard to believe that it had not been deemed airworthy since 4/14/1969 (or was it 7/3/56?). Mr. McKenna also states “makes you wonder a bit about the records the FAA has, but my guess is that it is not in airworthy condition, and hasn't been for a while.” Mr. Gillespie agreed. I can’t personally verify what date the 10-E was last used for skydiving, but my last skydive out of the 10-E was on February 17, 1979.
6.) Although I did not witness this personally, I have been told on more than one occasion that Bobby Frierson personally flew the Lockheed 10-E from Barnwell down to the Orlando area (a very difficult task indeed, if it had been "severely damaged in a hangar fire"). I received this information from someone who I trust, and would have had first-hand knowledge of the information. Also, even though I never saw the 10-E while it was down in the Orlando area and under the ownership of Dolph Overton, a good friend of mine (former skydiver and FAA air traffic controller) told me that he personally saw the 10-E when it was briefly on display on the interior of the museum. According to him, the aircraft was completely intact.
To summarize, I believe that the history of Lockheed 10-E c/n 1042 has been significantly misrepresented on this forum, and by at least one individual that is listed on the TIGHAR Board of Directors; that is a sad fact indeed. Also, it is of my personal opinion that Ms. Grace McGuire basically has gotten a raw deal in some of the posts in this forum, and that is also truly unfortunate. Does anyone feel that she deserves at least some sort of apology? Because of the blatant misinformation that appeared in this forum as it related to the Lockheed 10-E, could you really blame anyone if they questioned other “facts” as they appear in this forum and on this website? Personally, I think not.
(edited to only remove double signature)
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Thank you for that information.
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My pleasure.
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Mr. Gillespie also stated that he has “been catching grief from an emailer ... who claims that I have misrepresented the history of Lockheed 10E c/n 1042 - the only surviving Electra that was built as a 10E. I've always understood that the airplane was purchased from the defunct Wings and Wheels Museum in Florida by Grace McGuire after it was damaged in a hangar fire. My accuser says that's not right but doesn't seem to be able to provide documentation.”
From 1000 Aircraft Photos (http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/McGuireGrace/11194.htm):
The plane was transfered to Vikings of Denmark Inc. on October 1, 1976 and was
operated by Raeford Parachute Center in Raeford, North Carolina. Three years later,
on September 15, 1979 the aircraft was sold to Dolf Overton and stored at Wings
and Wheels Museum in Orlando, Florida.
New Jersey flight instructor Grace McGuire purchased the plane August 3, 1982
and named the old Electra "Muriel" after Amelia Earhart's sister Grace Muriel Earhart
Morrissey. Grace met Muriel in the late 1980s at the Wings Club in New York City, the
oldest aviation club in the world, and they became good friends and traveling companions.
Grace plans to someday publish letters exchanged between them.
Grace reports: "It took nearly two years to find the same model plane as Amelia
Earhart's in order to realize my ambition to recreate her flight. Christie's in NY
was auctioning off the contents of the Wings and Wheels Museum in Orlando,
Florida but my L-10E was not included in the sale due to its awful condition and
was left to rot in the back lot... it was going to be cut up and sold for scrap!
Muriel was the saddest looking plane you have ever seen but I had a feeling
we belonged together.. It was instant love the moment we met. So I purchased
Muriel and it was trucked to Rentschler Airport in Hartford, Connecticut to be
restored for the flight. My first mechanic was Ward Oakly who was one of
Earhart's mechanics. Ward called in Eddie Gorsky, Amelia's mechanic on
her 1932 Atlantic flight.
At least in the abstract, it seems conceivable that the "hangar fire," if any, could have happened in Orlando. It seems to have been flying in 1979. It seems then to have been in "awful condition and ... left to rot in the back lot," according to Grace McGuire.
Although I did not witness this personally, I have been told on more than one occasion that Bobby Frierson personally flew the Lockheed 10-E from Barnwell down to the Orlando area (a very difficult task indeed, if it had been "severely damaged in a hangar fire").
You have evidence that the fire did not take place before the last flight that you know of in 1979. Something happened between then and the time that the airframe was "left to rot." What we need is information from someone who knows what happened during those three years to change the airframe from flyable to sitting in the back lot waiting to be scrapped.
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Ric Gillespie and I have gone back and forth on the whole "hanger fire" issue in the past. During the time of jump operations in Barnwell SC (the 10-E was used at both the Barnwell SC and Raeford NC dropzones), one of the engines did briefly catch fire, but the flames were quickly put out. Repairs were made, and afterwards the 10-E was flown down to the Orlando area.
Personally, I think all of the confusion about a "hangar fire" is because the history of this 10-E was somehow mixed up with a Lockheed 12 (c/n 1225) that was "reportedy" (I have no personal confirmation) destroyed in a hangar fire in Miami:
http://www.flytoanothertime.com/AnotherTime/Lockheed1012.html
In other words, 2 + 2 = 5
The brief engine fire happened while the 10-E was based in Barnwell, and after my last jump out of the aircraft. Any "hangar fire" that would have even partially damaged any hypothetical 10-E would have resulted in not only a significant restoration, but a MAJOR rebuild, agreed? From what I can tell with Ms. McGuire's restoration, the fuselage is completely original, both wings are original, and the tail is original. Does that sound like the condition of the aircraft had been in a major "hangar fire" before restoration started? You know as well as I do, if an aircraft that was in marginal shape to begin with (skydiving aircraft of this type are usually stripped and gutted of all non-essentials before use). and if it was left out for 3 years in the elements, it would be in pretty sad shape, to say the least; especially one with a construction date of 1935.
Also, if you look at the information posted on 1000 Aircraft Photos and compare it with Mr. McKenna's information from FAA, you will see that the dates showing transfer from Z-Hills to Vikings of Denmark are off by a year.
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Ric Gillespie and I have gone back and forth on the whole "hanger fire" issue in the past.
If you've got a Florida eyewitness who can say, "I know there was no fire in the three years the 10-E was in Florida,
please name names.
If you are arguing from abstract possibilities and not from witness testimony, then it's just your imagination against Ric's.
The brief engine fire happened while the 10-E was based in Barnwell, and after my last jump out of the aircraft.
OK. So you are conceding that there was a fire in this airframe's history.
From what I can tell with Ms. McGuire's restoration, the fuselage is completely original, both wings are original, and the tail is original. Does that sound like the condition of the aircraft had been in a major "hangar fire" before restoration started? You know as well as I do, if an aircraft that was in marginal shape to begin with (skydiving aircraft of this type are usually stripped and gutted of all non-essentials before use). and if it was left out for 3 years in the elements, it would be in pretty sad shape, to say the least; especially one with a construction date of 1935.
There is some tension in what you are saying here.
I don't think Ric denies that the major components of the aircraft derive from the original.
That is one meaning of "original."
But you admit that the interior of the aircraft was "gutted." In that sense, everything that Grace put back inside to make it match Amelia's unique 10-E is NOT "original."
And therefore, examining the interior of "Muriel" would not help to answer questions about NR-16020.
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Mr. Moleski,
Please tell me that you are kidding. How can I or anyone else prove a negative? That would be like me challenging you to prove that you never cheated on your wife (assuming you are married). This website is supposed to be dedicated to "serving as a voice for integrity, responsibility, and professionalism in the field of aviation historic preservation." On July 26, 2016, Ric Gillespie plainly stated "Grace McGuire has been rebuilding this beast since she bought it back in the 1970s after it had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire." My response to you an others that continue to subscribe to that mindset is simply this: Prove It. Prove it prove it prove it.
In my personal opinion, you are helping dig the hole even deeper on the fact that misinformation about this Lockheed 10-E has been placed on this site, and by a member of the Board of Directors, no less. Do all the research that you can, and show me any evidence whatsoever that there was a hangar fire in the Orlando area in during the 3 years in question, and show me where it states that a Lockheed 10-E was severely damaged. A story of this nature must have made the news in the local Orlando area newspapers, yes?
Has anyone from TIGHAR even seen this aircraft up close and personal, must less put their hands on it, ever? So far, all I have been reading appears to be based on supposition and conjecture. Did TIGHAR even have a clue that there was a brief engine fire when the 10-E was based in Barnwell, and before it was flown to the Orlando area? Once again and so far, the answer appears to be "no". It was common knowledge at both the Raeford and Barnwell DZs that this event took place, mainly because the running joke was that Bobby Frierson (Barnwell) called Gene Paul Thacker (Raeford) and told him that his (Gene Paul's) side of the aircraft caught fire. That was the extent of it.
I guess at the end of the day TIGHAR can take one of 2 directions; either the power-to-be can admit that they made a huge mistake about the history of Lockheed 10-E c/n 1042, or they can continue to blatantly push a completely false and unproven narrative. The choice is yours. Skydive.
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What I know about Grace McGuire and c/n 1042 is based mostly on personal recollection (and we all know how reliable that is). It's a sad story and worth telling, but we have to be sure we have it right. Can anyone find some good source material?
This quote from the first post seems like an honest statement and is why more research was requested.
After Marty posted some research Ric said:
"No mention of a hangar fire, so apparently I was wrong about that."
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Please tell me that you are kidding. How can I or anyone else prove a negative? That would be like me challenging you to prove that you never cheated on your wife (assuming you are married).
Some negatives are easier to prove than others. I have a fairly long article on the subject on my website. (https://moleski.net/cac/Proving_negatives)
I am not now and never have been married.
That is a pretty provable negative, although it would take a fair amount of time and money to establish it beyond a reasonable doubt.
That I could not prove I never cheated on my wife, if I had a wife, is, of course, a more difficult proposition.
Finding someone who knew the museum between 1979 and 1982 would be difficult, but not on the same scale as that.
On July 26, 2016, Ric Gillespie plainly stated "Grace McGuire has been rebuilding this beast since she bought it back in the 1970s after it had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire." My response to you an others that continue to subscribe to that mindset is simply this: Prove It. Prove it prove it prove it.
I am not in a position to prove the truth of Ric's statement. He can defend himself, or not, as he chooses.
All I have attempted to do is to show that there is a time about which you do not have personal experience or witness testimony. Furthermore, the decay of the ship at the museum in Florida seems to be beyond a "reasonable" doubt. You have described how it was "gutted." Grace tells how it was left to "rot" outdoors and was slated to be destroyed. That, in turn, means that it is not an aircraft whose interior can answer questions that TIGHAR has about the original interior of NR16020.
In my personal opinion, you are helping dig the hole even deeper on the fact that misinformation about this Lockheed 10-E has been placed on this site, and by a member of the Board of Directors, no less. Do all the research that you can, and show me any evidence whatsoever that there was a hangar fire in the Orlando area in during the 3 years in question, and show me where it states that a Lockheed 10-E was severely damaged. A story of this nature must have made the news in the local Orlando area newspapers, yes?
No. Stuff happens. Some of it gets into the newspapers; some doesn't.
Has anyone from TIGHAR even seen this aircraft up close and personal, must less put their hands on it, ever?
Not me. I don't know about other TIGHAR members.
So far, all I have been reading appears to be based on supposition and conjecture. Did TIGHAR even have a clue that there was a brief engine fire when the 10-E was based in Barnwell, and before it was flown to the Orlando area? Once again and so far, the answer appears to be "no". It was common knowledge at both the Raeford and Barnwell DZs that this event took place, mainly because the running joke was that Bobby Frierson (Barnwell) called Gene Paul Thacker (Raeford) and told him that his (Gene Paul's) side of the aircraft caught fire. That was the extent of it.
OK. So there was a story of a fire associated with this aircraft. Thanks for providing that information. It's news to me.
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Thanks for all the posts. I always enjoy reading this type of discussion.
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As you know, this plane is now in Atchison, KS. I received an invite from the Atchison Amelia Earhart Foundation to go see it on July on their Festival Weekend. Sigh. I'd love to see that plane, but it's a long ways from my place in Sheridan, Wyoming.
Link here:
https://atchisonameliaearhartfoundation.org/2017/06/13/muriel-viewing-festival-weekend/#comments
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Once again for the sake of clarification an/or accuracy, it would be great to see some sort of documentation that the following statement submitted by Mr. Gillespie is actually correct; "We were not successful, but in the course of those discussions I learned that United Technologies had planned to fund Grace McGuire's proposed re-enactment of Earhart's flight using cn 1042 until they learned that Grace did not have a multi-engine rating."
According to an online article posted by Air & Space Magazine (an adjunct of the Smithsonian Institution's National Air and Space Museum), the reason is stated as such: "In 1983, along came Grace McGuire, who dreamed of reenacting Earhart’s flight. Searching for a 10E, she found a basket case at a Christie’s auction. United Technologies (parent company of Pratt & Whitney, which had made the Electra’s engines) heard of her plan and offered to restore the 10E to flying condition. Once the aircraft was evaluated, however, it was plain that the project would bust its budget."
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/lockheed-electra-10a-5653285/
Can anyone offer up any documentation or additional information, either way, to help clear up this obvious discrepancy? Thanks.
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Can anyone offer up any documentation or additional information, either way, to help clear up this obvious discrepancy? Thanks.
I was reporting what was told to me by the Pratt & Whitney VP for Communications in September, 1997. I was pushing to get sponsorship for our project and he was explaining to me why I was getting nowhere. "We're out of the Amelia Earhart business." The McGuire affair was an embarrassment and had soured the company on sponsoring Amelia Earhart projects.
It's not clear where the writer of the 2004 Air & Space article got his version of the story. The only informant he quotes is Bill Taylor. I knew Bill. Great guy. He was the mechanic in charge of restoring c/n 1052 for the New England Air Museum. Bill died about two years ago.
The Air & Space article has some inaccuracies. For example,
"In 1934 this particular Electra, a 10A, serial no. 1052, rolled off the Lockheed assembly line in Burbank, California,..." In fact, 1052 was delivered February 19, 1936.
"United Technologies (parent company of Pratt & Whitney, which had made the Electra’s engines) heard of her plan and offered to restore the 10E to flying condition."
This makes it sound like UT approached McGuire. According to the P&W executive I spoke to, that's not what happened. Corporate sponsorships almost never happen that way. You go to them. They don't come to you.
"In 1984, United Technologies bought Dolph Overton’s 10A and got to work."
I saw the airplane when it was still in the Lisbon, CT hangar (see photo below). Nobody "got to work" on 1052 until it went to Windsor Locks in 1994.
"Then McGuire fell ill with Lyme disease, and United Technologies changed management and ditched the McGuire project."
When I was first in touch with Grace she was still living in Rumson, NJ. I don't remember the year, but it had to be after 1988 when we began our Earhart investigation. United Technologies was already long out of the picture and she had not yet been diagnosed with Lyme.
Grace McGuire's hostility toward TIGHAR had nothing to do with my mistaken belief that her plane had been damaged in a fire. She disagreed with our theory. She was, and probably still is, convinced that AE crashed and sank because she had the wrong lat/long coordinates for Howland.
It may be possible to find out if Grace McGuire ever held a multi-engine rating.
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Hi Ric,
I do appreciate your response. I am sure that we are both aware that at times, "history" is passed along and written by authors that may either have agendas in mind, or based on their personal point of view, agreed? Here are 2 links that appear to either dispute or challenge the information that you just posted above.
According to this article, Grace was approached by an "international company" after an appearance on Good Morning America. Would that international company possibly be United Technologies?:
https://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=176
According to this online article, Grace McGuire appeared to have full-blown Lyme Disease as early as 1984:
http://www1.gmnews.com/2000/11/08/more-than-a-flight-of-fancy-rumson-pilot-restoring-plane-in-hopes-of-re-creating-amelia-earharts-journey/
I also frequent forums that deal with both my past and present hobbies. As we all know, it's extremely common for "facts" to be stated in these forums that may or may not be correct. Thus the expression "buyer beware". However, on a forum such as this on the TIGHAR website, and when historical information is posted (especially by one of the Executive Directors/Administrators), it would be prudent for that information, if indeed stated as fact, be verified as being truthful. From my point of view, TIGHAR's Mission Statement calls for nothing less.
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According to this online article, Grace McGuire appeared to have full-blown Lyme Disease as early as 1984:
And yet, the first article you cited says, "It was now the mid-l980's, and Grace had become very ill. Like many victims of Lyme disease, she was diagnosed with, and treated for, everything EXCEPT Lyme disease."
Sometime later "Grace had become so ill she was hospitalized. Incompetent doctors had no clue as to what her problem really was. She suffered bouts of blindness, meningitis, encephalitis, paralysis, muscle spasms, crushing head pain, a heart murmur, and profound fatigue and weakness. The diagnosis was probable multiple sclerosis AND Lyme disease."
She was not hospitalized when I talked to her.
Trying to sort out the timeline of McGuire's story is complicated by the many contradictions in the various accounts. We could probably do it with enough effort but her story has no bearing on our investigation, nor does her airplane. We have many conversations about a wide range of subjects on this forum. We don't always get everything right but we do make corrections when find out that we got something wrong.
http://www1.gmnews.com/2000/11/08/more-than-a-flight-of-fancy-rumson-pilot-restoring-plane-in-hopes-of-re-creating-amelia-earharts-journey/
I also frequent forums that deal with both my past and present hobbies. As we all know, it's extremely common for "facts" to be stated in these forums that may or may not be correct. Thus the expression "buyer beware". However, on a forum such as this on the TIGHAR website, and when historical information is posted (especially by one of the Executive Directors/Administrators), it would be prudent for that information, if indeed stated as fact, be verified as being truthful. From my point of view, TIGHAR's Mission Statement calls for nothing less.
[/quote]
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Looks like Grace McGuire did have a Commercial Multi-Engine ticket, and also a single engine flight instructor rating.
Commercial rating is dated 7/21/83, but her last medical was 4/1992 so maybe the lack of medical became an issue. Edit - Oops, I mis-read the date.
Andrew
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Looks like Grace McGuire did have a Commercial Multi-Engine ticket, and also a single engine flight instructor rating.
But when did she get her Multi-engine rating? Her Commercial ticket was issued 7/21/83. Did she already her Instrument and Multi ratings or did they come later? It was a year or two after I got my Commercial license before I got my Instrument and then another several months before I scrounged enough money to get my Multi.
United Technologies supposedly got involved in 1983 but it's not clear what year they bailed.
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Under Martin Moleski's first post in this thread is a link to an interview with Grace McGuire. In the interview she said:
"Original documents examined by McGuire and others suggested that Earhart and her navigator, Fred Noonan, were given the wrong coordinates for the tiny island they were trying to reach when they vanished.
The flight plan showing the location of Howland Island, deep in the Pacific, was off by seven miles. McGuire believes the mistake may have made the difference between life and death."
Does anyone know of these documents?
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The flight plan showing the location of Howland Island, deep in the Pacific, was off by seven miles. McGuire believes the mistake may have made the difference between life and death."
Yes.
Often discussed.
The correction location was known by the US Coast Guard and was communicated to AE and FN. (https://tighar.org/wiki/Howland_Island#Correct_location_of_Howland_Island_known_in_1937)
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There is also this: By TIGHAR's assessment, the aircraft was never within 100 miles of Howland. Even if Earhart somehow did not receive the island's corrected position, a five mile discrepancy wouldn't have mattered.
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Thank you so much for that information! Especially since I missed the previous discussions on this.
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For Gary Holbrook
Just so you know, what I did was request and pay for a copy of the FAA registration and airworthiness records that the FAA has, and then reviewed and reported what I found in those records. The research on the Forum is a collaborative process, and anyone including yourself as well as Board members are free to participate as long as they follow the Forum rules. If Board members, or anyone else for that matter, are expected to be perfect in all the research they contribute, no one would participate. It is a bar that is too high to meet. In the mean time, we try our best.
You wrote:
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4.) I am not disputing Mr. Andrew M McKenna’s statement that his 10-E information was “gleaned from the FAA registration records”, but I do dispute the implication of some of it’s information. His post includes the line “10/1/77 - N355B Sold to Vikings of Denmark, Inc., Denmark SC”. I know for a fact that Bobby Frierson (owner of “Vikings of Denmark”, a skydiving operation based out of Barnwell SC) already had possession of the 10-E as of April 16, 1977, because my friends and I made several skydives out of the 10-E on both the 16th and 17th, over Rocky Point, NC, during Wilmington’s (NC) Azalea Festival weekend.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Your post made me go back and review the information I got from the FAA, and indeed, I got the date of the sale to the Vikings of Denmark wrong. It would appear that the bill of sale was dated 10/1/76, not 1977, and the registration by the Vikings in their name is dated 1/13/77. I've edited my original post in this thread to reflect this correction. Sometimes the photocopies are hard to read and in somewhat confusing order. Copy attached.
You also said:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
5.) Mr. McKenna states that “The last airworthiness record the FAA has was a major repair and alteration form 337 dated 4/14/1969 for an engine overhaul, so it would appear that nothing that has been done to the aircraft since has been reported to the FAA. The last application for an airworthiness certificate in the FAA records was submitted by Provincetown- Boston on 7/3/56. Makes you wonder a bit about the records the FAA has, but my guess is that it is not in airworthy condition, and hasn't been for a while.” Although I am not disputing what the FAA has in its current records, I find it hard to believe that it had not been deemed airworthy since 4/14/1969 (or was it 7/3/56?). Mr. McKenna also states “makes you wonder a bit about the records the FAA has, but my guess is that it is not in airworthy condition, and hasn't been for a while.” Mr. Gillespie agreed. I can’t personally verify what date the 10-E was last used for skydiving, but my last skydive out of the 10-E was on February 17, 1979.
>>>>>
Note - I'm not an FAA Airworthiness Inspector, so what follows may not be 100% accurate. The records for airworthiness at the FAA are not the same as the aircraft being in airworthy condition. The FAA requires notification of any major repairs or changes to the original airworthy configuration. If no major repairs are done, or if no one properly reports such repairs to the FAA, then their records would not contain any information. In this case, it would appear that no one reported any modifications or major repairs after 4/14/1969. That doesn't mean that the aircraft wasn't airworthy at anytime after that date, and it could easily have had annual inspections and remained in airworthy condition every year after 1969 including when you flew in it in 1979.
Did the Vikings modify the aircraft for skydiving? Probably, but apparently they didn't report anything to the FAA. We do know that Grace McGuire did quite a bit of work on this aircraft, but none of it seems to have been reported to the FAA. Whether that was an oversight, or she never really intended to fly it again, I certainly don't know. Given that the aircraft was in "rotten" condition when she got it, I find it hard to believe that the kind of work she would have had to do to get it back in airworthy condition would not have required filing multiple Form 337s, but that is just my opinion. In any case, no F337s were submitted to the FAA that are currently in their records. Either they were not filed, or simply are lost to the FAA's archive. I don't know the answer.
I do object to your characterization that TIGHAR has "significantly misrepresented" the history of this aircraft. We put out the info we think we have to the best of our knowledge, figure out what is wrong, and then improve the accuracy from that point forward, which was the whole point of this thread. You have helped to clarify some of the history which is a great result, but I don't think you had to approach it with the level of animosity that is, in my opinion, contained in your postings. I'm glad to see that you've cooled off a bit in later postings.
I hope that you now see that we are not trying to seriously misrepresent the history of CN 1042, but rather we're trying to put together a more accurate picture of that history.
Thanks for your participation.
Best
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
I do appreciate your reply, along with the corrected information. My biggest complaint, as originally stated was based on Ric Gillespie's comment in a previous thread about Lockheed 10-E c/n 1042; Forum entry: In response to Greg Daspit’s post entry “a chance to look at a genuine 10E components in person is good news" Ric Gillespie (Executive Director/Administrator) replied “Yes and no, Grace McGuire has been rebuilding this beast since she bought it in the 1970’s after it had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire.” Mr. Gillespie’s statement “it had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire” is grossly, and I mean grossly incorrect. Mr. Gillespie made this statement as absolute fact, not even as a supposition, and that is truly unfortunate. None of the other “experts” that frequent this forum seem to step up to even challenge Mr. Gillespie’s misstatement.
The original post by Mr. Gillespie contained no documentation about any "hangar fire" that "nearly burned up" the 10-E, and there has been absolutely no documentation since that time that reinforces his original statement. To me at least, that in itself is a huge, huge misrepresentation of the facts as they relate to this 10-E. Once that misrepresentation had been stated, I believe that it helped set the tone for further comments concerning the 10-E and Grace McGuire.
I am also unfamiliar with FAA's inspection process, but it would make sense to me that any annual inspections that would have taken place would have deemed the aircraft airworthy, at least in the general sense. The hand and foot rails were installed while the aircraft was based at Raeford, I remember and know that to be a fact. If my memory serves me right, and once the hand and foot rails were installed, we had to wait for an FAA inspection before the 10-E was allowed to fly again. It is my understanding that Gene Paul Thacker (owner of Skydive Raeford) was part owner of the 10-E. He was a former Golden Knight, on the Board of Directors for USPA (United States Parachute Association), he was airport manager, and he also owned several 182s, a 185, and a Twin Beech. He was a by-the-book guy, and it does not make any sense to me that we would have jumped the 10-E before some sort of an FAA inspection.
Also, I disagree with your statement "Did the Vikings modify the aircraft for skydiving? Probably, but apparently they didn't report anything to the FAA." The 10-E was already set up for skydiving from its days at Zephyrhills; no significant changes at all would have been necessary.
In response to your statement "I do object to your characterization that TIGHAR has "significantly misrepresented" the history of this aircraft." My main reasoning for choosing those words were (and are) based on the original "after it had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire" comment. I believe that since Mr. Gillespie is Executive Director/Administrator of TIGHAR, my statement can be considered valid. On a smaller note, I believe that Mr. Gillespie tended to flavor his original post in this thread by stating "I've been catching grief from an emailer (who won't give his name)". Mr. Gillespie never asked for my name, and I have the emails to prove it. I do want to give him credit, however, on taking the steps to try to rectify the the history of this particular 10-E, and I sincerely appreciate that. Seriously.
In one email to Mr. Gillespie earlier this month, I also provided my cell number (I also asked him not to share it with others unless we discussed that in advance).
Despite all of the above, I was relatively cool on how things were progressing on this thread, that was until Mr. Moleski's (also a TIGHAR Administrator) comment "At least in the abstract, it seems conceivable that the "hangar fire," if any, could have happened in Orlando. It seems to have been flying in 1979. It seems then to have been in "awful condition and ... left to rot in the back lot," according to Grace McGuire." Being "left to rot in the back lot" is world's away from being in a "hangar fire". I am sure that most of us have seen aircraft that have been abandoned (for lack of a better word) at various airports, some of them may have also been stripped of parts. Just because these aircraft have been left out in the elements, does not put them in the same category as one that would have "nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire". For Mr. Moleski (TIGHAR Administrator) to even suggest that possibility, without any sort of documentation whatsoever is irresponsible, at least in my book.
I hate to keep preaching, but I feel like I must add this as well; nowhere on this forum have I seen any mention about any credit that is due to Grace McGuire's restoration efforts. Instead, there are times where she has been painted in a relatively negative light. TIGHAR's mission is "dedicated to promoting responsible aviation archaeology and historic preservation", agreed? Well, in my book, Grace McGuire didn't just talk about it, she physically did it.
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Despite all of the above, I was relatively cool on how things were progressing on this thread, that was until Mr. Moleski's (also a TIGHAR Administrator)
I am not a "TIGHAR Administrator."
I am a TIGHAR member.
I have run the web server since 2009.
I install and run software as needed on the server.
Just because these aircraft have been left out in the elements, does not put them in the same category as one that would have "nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire". For Mr. Moleski (TIGHAR Administrator) to even suggest that possibility, without any sort of documentation whatsoever is irresponsible, at least in my book.
I did not attempt to prove in any way that there WAS a fire between the time that you flew in it and the time when Grace found that it had been "left to rot."
All I said was that there was a three-year gap in your story.
IF there was a fire that contributed to the abandonment of the plane, then it MUST have happened in that 3-year period.
Your testimony does not contradict that argument.
There might have been a fire during that time.
You believe that is impossible.
I do not share your belief.
And the whole issue is moot, which means "endlessly debatable and not relevant" to the question of whether looking inside the aircraft can help determine what was inside AE's aircraft.
As I said in my long post: "All I have attempted to do is to show that there is a time about which you do not have personal experience or witness testimony. Furthermore, the decay of the ship at the museum in Florida seems to be beyond a 'reasonable' doubt. You have described how it was 'gutted.' Grace tells how it was left to 'rot' outdoors and was slated to be destroyed. That, in turn, means that it is not an aircraft whose interior can answer questions that TIGHAR has about the original interior of NR16020."
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Mr Moleski, these are your exact words"
"There might have been a fire during that time.
You believe that is impossible.
I do not share your belief."
Personally, I believe that you are grasping at straws here; do you have ANY evidence of ANY fire with ANY aircraft that was owned by the Wings & Wheels Museum during that time period, or any other time? Have you tried to research any sort of a aircraft-related fire, in the Orlando FL area, during that time period? (I have, and so far the answer is "no, nada, zilch"). You may want to check the image that is currently attached to your posts. You say that you are "not a TIGHAR" Administrator", your image says otherwise:
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Personally, I believe that you are grasping at straws here; do you have ANY evidence of ANY fire with ANY aircraft that was owned by the Wings & Wheels Museum during that time period, or any other time?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Marty is not saying there was a fire. He is merely saying the aircraft's history has not been fully documented so it's not possible to say for certain that there was no fire. That's not grasping at straws. This is a basic principle of historical investigation - recognizing what can and cannot be said with certainty.
Marty is a Forum Administrator, not a TIGHAR Administrator. There are no TIGHAR Administrators.
Once again, I was wrong in saying that the plane had been severely damaged in a hangar fire. I have admitted and corrected that error. Andrew had a date wrong. He has admitted and corrected that error. The history of c/n 1042, your experience as a skydiver, and Grace McGuire's personality are not relevant to our investigation of the Earhart disappearance. Further back and forth about all this would be merely sound and fury signifying nothing.
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Mr Moleski, these are your exact words"
"There might have been a fire during that time.
You believe that is impossible.
I do not share your belief."
Yes, those are my exact words.
They express my convictions pretty accurately.
do you have ANY evidence of ANY fire with ANY aircraft that was owned by the Wings & Wheels Museum during that time period, or any other time?
I think I've made it pretty clear that I do not have any evidence of a fire during those three years.
You may want to check the image that is currently attached to your posts. You say that you are "not a TIGHAR" Administrator", your image says otherwise:
Being an "administrator" on a "Special Machines Form" (the software that we use for this Forum) does not make me a "TIGHAR Administrator" (someone who has some authority for TIGHAR's operations).
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Hello all,
I thought that I would post a photo in reference to our conversation(s) above. The image itself is not that sharp, but it shows the condition of Lockheed 10E Electra c/n 1042 when Grace McGuire purchased it. The handwritten caption above says "one of the first photos taken of Muriel after Grace purchased her. Photo courtesy of Grace McGuire". The large vinyl sticker that Gene Paul Thacker (previous co-owner) installed while the 10E was used for jumping at Raeford NC can still be seen just aft of the door. Can we now all agree that this aircraft was not severely damaged in any sort of fire, or is this still an open issue?