So what are the numbers he has?
I don't know if this is any help - but is taken from an eBay listing. It's the collimation certificate for a sextant from the U.S. Naval Observatory dated Jan 1945. There are other pictures of the box.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=170512363630
A Google search on "Brandis sextant" yielded some results.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-1938-us-navy-sextant-no-4267-brandis
Brandis 4765, U.S. Navy Sextant Brandis & Sons, Brooklyn N.Y. Navy no. 4267
sold on eBay
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/us-navy-sexton-brandis-sons-new-york
The original box is very nice with nicely dovetailed walls & brass hardware.
No numbers. Sold on eBay 08/18/2008
Seller Shawn at Cottonwood Village Antiques and Country Store 4300 Dawsonville Hwy Gainesville GA 30506
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1921-us-navy-sextant-owned-by-enola-gay-admiral
Incomplete information. This is a 1921 United States Navy Sextant made by Brandis & Sons of Brooklyn , New York. The sextant is marked US Navy #1146 on the bottom of the graduated scale. The case has the original Certificate of Inspection from August 27, 1921 for Brandis sextant number 1146.
Sold on eBay 12/11/2006
A possible expert ...
http://fer3.com/arc/m2.aspx?i=108211
Bill Morris
Pukenui
New Zealand
Book:
Sextants at Greenwich: a catalogue of the mariner's quadrants, mariner's ...
By W.F.J. Mörzer Bruyns, Richard Dunn
Another book - just published.
http://sextantbook.com/inside-the-book/
See his article on rebuilding a Brandis aircraft sextant. Great photos.
http://sextantbook.com/category/aircraft-bubble-sextants/
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1919PA.....27..359W
Brandis sextant 3257 noted as one of the instruments used to determine the longitude and latitude for observation of the eclipse of June 8, 1918.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/h/item/7445914?ah=21-169a4&category=&itemtype=all
(lot of 2) American ships sextant, Brandis & Sons Inc.
Sold May 2010 at Auston Auction Gallery, Austin, Texas for $250 512-258-5479
Decent pictures of box. Fair pics of sextant.
Maybe someone can track down the buyer and ask for numbers.
My own cost-benefit analysis says "not worth it." What we really want is the mother-lode: the Naval Observatory's master list.Marty, can you say whether the Naval Observatory has already been approached about that list or not?
QuoteMy own cost-benefit analysis says "not worth it." What we really want is the mother-lode: the Naval Observatory's master list.Marty, can you say whether the Naval Observatory has already been approached about that list or not?
There's a Brandis sextant on eBay item #350401896246. Numbers are 2734 and USN 362. Several pictures and a written description. Buy-it-Now for $675.
There's another Brandis sextant on eBay - item# 250718198372
The only number seen in the photos is 916 stenciled on the box.
I'm hoping someone knows enough about sextants so that they can contact the seller and direct them where to look to find the numbers on the instrument. Location is Brooksville, FL.
Yet another Brandis sextant on eBay. Item# 260687912625 It's a beauty.
No numbers are given in the posting; but some can be surmised from the photos.
Folks, At the moment there are three Brandis sextants on eBay. On 2734 we already have the data. On another, Item# 260687912625, both Andrew and I have made inquiries to the seller about numbers. We are awaiting a reply.
I have just heard back from the third seller - item#250718198372. She states ...
"After about an hour of cleaning & searching, this is what I've been able to come up with: Inside the box, by the right hinge, all I can make out is the #4. On the sextant itself.....towards one end of the arc is the #3702. At the other end I can make out fragments of the USNO, but I'm pretty sure the rest of the #s have worn away.On the outside of the box the # 916 has been stenciled on. On the inside, on the front hinge, is the #121. I sure hope this helps you! Alice (PS...thanx so much for all the help!)"
So it looks like Brandis 4345, USN 1914, although the box may have originally been for Brandis 4001. Note that the Ser 1914 is hand written on the box, and I think was probably added later when instrument #1914 was placed in box 4001.
In any case, I think we can add
Brandis 4345, USN 1914
Brandis 4001, box only
There are a bunch of other numbers on the box as described in the seller's answer to Dan and Jim.
QuoteMy own cost-benefit analysis says "not worth it." What we really want is the mother-lode: the Naval Observatory's master list.Marty, can you say whether the Naval Observatory has already been approached about that list or not?
Here is the contact list (so far):
- Dr. Archinal, formerly with the NO, now with the USGS regarding the historical instruments at the NO. Andrew McKenna wrote to him twice, but never got a reply.
- Dr. Rafferty, mentioned in Archinal's work, said: "Contact Dr. Dick, former NO historian, now Chief Historian with NASA."
- Dr. Panossian, mentioned in Archinal's work
- Dr. Dick, former NO historian, now Chief Historian with NASA. McKenna: "Dr. Dick wrote back that the instruments division was moved to the Norfolk Naval Yards in 1950 or so, and that I should contact Goeff Chester, the USNO Public Affairs Officer."
- Carolyn Moore Mueller, Public Affairs Specialist/Editor, Norfolk Naval Shipyard; worked for Goeff Chester, US Naval Observatory Public Affairs Officer. Recommended looking at http://www.history.navy.mil/]Naval History and Heritage Command (NHHC) (http://Naval History and Heritage Command (NHHC)) and at Norfolk Naval Shipyard Museum (http://hamptonroads.com/2010/04/norfolk-naval-shipyard-portsmouth).
We haven't followed up on the two suggestions made in the last item on the list. A TIGHAR member did have some contact with the NHCC in April, 2009, but missed being introduced to the curator.
Let's not all call them all at once. We have 288 people registered in the Forum and a variety of guests who visit anonymously. But it would be splendid if we could get one person to take the lead on this and figure out whether the master list still exists somewhere. Then we could see whether there is an entry for a sextant with maker number 3500 and Naval Observatory number 1542.
Hi Marty, first time poster here. Has the search for the Naval Observatory records advanced any since your post of 7/21/10? If no one is pursuing this, I have some ideas and would like to take a stab at it.
Excellent! Off I go, crashing into the bundu of government bureaucracy. If you don't hear back from me by 2012, LTM and tell her I went bravely.
Another Brandis on eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Sextant-Max-Kuner-Co-Brandis-Sons-Brooklyn-/290579960462?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a7ea528e (http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Sextant-Max-Kuner-Co-Brandis-Sons-Brooklyn-/290579960462?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a7ea528e)
Brandis Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Sextant-Max-Kuner-Co-Brandis-Sons-Brooklyn-/290579960462?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a7ea528e)
Seller lists the number as 5935. The name Max Kuner Co. Seattle is located about the midpoint of the arc. A Google search indicates that Max Kuner was a company that sold nautical supplies to the commercial boating marker. I doubt this sextant was ever owned by the U.S. Navy. I sent a request to the seller asking if additional numbers exist on the instrument or box.
You can add Brandis 3444 / USN 1461 to the list.Thanks, Walter. I've updated the list (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant) with this one. Its position right next to the theoretical Niku sextant is very spine-tingling!
... I have contacted the Naval Observatory, National Archives, U. S. Naval Historical Center, and Norfolk Naval Shipyard, Portsmouth, Va. all with scant return. The Naval Observatory did the calibration on optical and timekeepers until about 1953 when this task was transfered to Norfolk Naval Shipyard. I have spoken with long time employees of the Norfolk Naval Shipyard and much to my dismay when these shops were closed in the late 1980s the material and records were not recognized as the historical treasure they were. ...
I have found that production dates of the instruments and the Naval Observatory calibration numbers do not exactly track in line but generally trend in order.
Good luck in finding the log books, I have tried for 20 years and the trail grows cold at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard. I hope this information gives some new researcher with time and energy at least a starting point and saves some search time. If I can be of any further help please let me know.
Jim Dyson
Portsmouth, Va.
757-646-1827
www.chelseaclockmuseum.com (http://www.chelseaclockmuseum.com)
New eBay listing for a Brandis box only:
Brandis Box (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160623039450)
From the listing: "Here I have a very nice Brandis - U.S. Navy Sextant Mahogany Box. Information on the label is U.S. Navel Observatory, Washington, D.C. Collimation Certificate. Date Mar-7-1946. Sextant no. 2919. Type, Survey. Maker Brandis No. Mfg. #2919. Looks like it was signed by G.E. Jasper, Lt. U.S.N. There is a tag on the front with the number 248- U.S. Navy - 109706. It is missing the hooks to hold it closed. No key. The box is 9-7/8" x 9-7/8" x 5-1/2"."
I sent a message to the seller asking if there are any numbers in the hinge area.
I asked the seller if there were any numbers printed in the hinge area. His reply was: "To the right hand side of the right hinge when opened the number 2919 is inscribed twice on the edge of the top and again on the base. Above the hinge stamped in ink is the number 5310. In two areas it is stamped on the inside cover in ink Brandis & Sons Inc. 754-758 Lexington Avenue, Brooklyn, New York."
I will leave it to others more experienced in this area to decide which number might be the Brandis number and which might be the NO number.
How about #5675 and some of the other Smithsonian owned Brandis sextants that are mentioned in this link:
http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/navigation/maker.cfm?makerid=35 (http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/navigation/maker.cfm?makerid=35)
How about #5675 and some of the other Smithsonian owned Brandis sextants that are mentioned in this link:
http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/navigation/maker.cfm?makerid=35 (http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/navigation/maker.cfm?makerid=35)
We have all the sextants from that list (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant#Sextant_Box_Numbers:_Suggestive_Patterns) that have Naval Observatory numbers on them, I believe.
Seller replied Brandis number is 4672. No numbers or any information on the box.Thanks for the info. The table in Ameliapedia (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro) has been updated.
NO number is 1889.
Here is a sextant that shows that by 1941 the Navy numbering system had been institutionalized from the hand etched numbers we see on the earlier Brandis sextant to a stamped and painted number complete with the symbol N inside a circle, the number, and the year. This instrument is Navy #9746, and the box is Has Navy #13692Thanks for the info. The table in Ameliapedia (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro)has been updated.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260866658773&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123#ht_600wt_1328 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260866658773&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123#ht_600wt_1328)
This sextant was apparently used on the USS Hector AR-7, a repair ship that was launched at the end of 1942, and commissioned in April of 1944 and has a distinguished WWII history.
http://www.usshector.com/shipslog.html (http://www.usshector.com/shipslog.html)
I find it interesting that a sextant with a 1941 Navy number was issued to a ship that wasn't launched until late '42 and commissioned in '44. I guess the Navy was buying sextants well in advance.
Andrew
One more on eBay. Questions sent to seller regarding numbers and box. Certificate in box states Brandis number as 3320 and NO number as 4799. Seller states NO number is 4794. Certificate looks hand made. Box does not look like other Brandis boxes. BTW starting bid is 99 cents. There is a reserve.Thanks for the info. The table in Ameliapedia (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro) has been updated.
Brandis Sextant (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330646043013)
Seller reports that Brandis 3320 has NO # 4799 on the arc. 4794 was a mistake.Table has been updated as you requested.
Bruce, Can you modify the table to remove the (now know as false) discrepancy?
New eBay listing. Brandis #4994, NO #2741Thanks for the info. The table in Ameliapedia (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro) has been updated.
eBay Brandis (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-WWII-U-S-Navy-Brandis-Sextant-Naval-Navigation-Instrument-Antique-1942-2-/160694328083?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256a20db13)
New eBay listing. Brandis #4994, NO #2741
eBay Brandis (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-WWII-U-S-Navy-Brandis-Sextant-Naval-Navigation-Instrument-Antique-1942-2-/160694328083?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256a20db13)
http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/navigation/type.cfm?typeid=11 (http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/navigation/type.cfm?typeid=11)
lists several Brandis instruments in Smithsonian "Behring Center". You may already list them all, but the photos are nice.
According to the Ameliaopedia, Harry Manning loaned FN a US Navy Pioneer Bubble Octant, #12-36, in a letter dated March 20, 1937. When looking at the Smithsonian pictures of Brandis Aircraft Sextants, they are identified as "Octants" (the difference being that an Octant can only measure up to 90 degree angles, which is all that is needed for aircraft use). These "Octants" have boxes essential the same as "sextant" boxes.
The "Ludoph Sextant in Pensacola Box 3547/173" appears to be an Octant (http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Moffettsext.jpg (http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Moffettsext.jpg))
This raises my suspicions even more that the "Sextant" FN borrowed from Manning would have been in a "sextant" box.
Moreover, we need to be looking for "Octant" numbers as much as "Sextant" numbers.
Martin: I'll gladly move this if it is inappropriate in this thread.
There might be no need for FN to have carried a second instrument to explain how a 1930's era Sextant box arrived on Gardner. It might have held FN's borrowed Octant.
Yet another Brandis on eBay. Brandis #3893 and NO #4569 with Certificate of Inspection date of 3/14/41. Box and instrument NO numbers match. Seller has not verified maker's number on instrument. Number stamped on box matches certificate. Sextant (http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Brandis-Sons-Navagation-Sextant-Case-/370582199930?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56486b9e7a)
Another Brandis on eBay: Brandis # 5577, NO# 4485. Numbers on instrument and box match. Certificate of Inspection lists class as "Survey."
Brandis Sextant (http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Navy-Brandis-Sextant-WWII-Vintage-with-Dovetail-box-/140725135617?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c3df2901)
Is there any advantage in listing sextant serial numbers that are far from the range surrounding #3500 and NO #1542?
New listing on eBay for a Brandis. NO number is 1421. I've asked the seller for additional info.
Brandis NO1421 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brandis-Sons-Navy-Sextant-1910s-WWI-US-NAVY-1421-Case-and-all-Parts-/160785476139?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256f8faa2b)
Looks like the number stenciled on the box near the right hinge is 4551 or 4553
Vendor replies the manufacturer's number on the arc is 3331. The number on the box is 4551. As before the NO is 1421.
The Gardner box had 3500 and 1542 on it. I like the above numbers.
| | serial number | N.O. number | N.O. inspection date |
| Brandis | 3339 | 1415 | 1942-12-26 |
| Brandis | 3331 | 1421 | |
| Brandis | 3444 | 1461 | |
| Brandis? | 3500 | 1542 | |
| Brandis (box only) | 3483 | 1567 | 1932-01-27 |
Here's an octant box that is closer in style to a sextant box.But that box and octant came well after the Earhart disappearance, it wasn't produced until 1941. (http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/navigation/object.cfm?recordnumber=451519)
PIONEER INSTRUMENT MARK III MODEL 7. Scroll down for more photos.
Unique Box (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-ORIGINAL-WW-II-AIRCRAFT-OCTANT-PIONEER-INSTRUMENT-MARK-III-MODEL-7-/230742557030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b9540166)
Thanks Marty for the above post. If we assume the Navy purchased sextants in batches, there would be no compelling reason to test them in order of manufacturer's serial number. However, the grouping of NO numbers around a particular set of manufacturer's numbers (the bounds of the batch) seems significant. Let's hope a few more sextants show up in the desired range.
Vendor replies the manufacturer's number on the arc is 3331. The number on the box is 4551. As before the NO is 1421.
So we're talking about two different sets of numbers here, B 3331 / NO 1421, and B 4551 / NO 1762. #3331 is simply in the wrong box, which we've seen frequently in the past.
Marty, we should be able to log both sets on the table, yes?
You can add 3985, but I'd like someone to confirm the NO number as 1826. It's on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380451003032&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123) and the listing says NO 4829 but I believe the 4 is a stylized 1 and the 9 is just a mistake.
Nice unit, looks complete including some tools I have seen before. Box in better shape than most, but no evidence of collimation cert on inside of cover. Numbers I suggested a in general conformance with the pattern, although a minor conflict with 4551, which I believe was just a box with a non-matching sextant in it.
There is another Brandis on ebay, #5084. I can't tell if there is a USNO number from the photos, and I've sent a question to the seller.The narrative says that number 5084, but the photo (upside down) has it inscribed as 5804.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251134812762&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123#ht_1453wt_1144
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251134812762&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123#ht_1453wt_1144)
Andrew
I was unable to locate the magazine again. (It may have been in the U of Michigan library.)
Not the greatest agreement but someone with a better grasp of statistics could easily say whether the latter estimat is really different from 4600 at a high confidence level...
Brandis 4097
Navy 4657
Looks like the box matches as well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/271069168476?item=271069168476&ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/271069168476?item=271069168476&ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123)
John, I'm enjoying reading what you've dug up for the sextant numbers. I'm not very accomplished in the realm of statistics, but reading your latest made me think of the German Tank Problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem), a famous use of statistical analysis of serial numbers of captured German tanks during WWII that led to an accurate estimate of German tank production numbers. Perhaps there's something from that analysis of serial numbers that you can exploit.
Perhaps a new thread should be posted on USNO chronometers?
There are four Keuffel & Esser sextants in the Ameliapedia sextant table with Naval Observatory numbers. In the table below I list the N.O. number, K&E serial number, date of manufacture as indicated by the table from Surveying Antiques, and date of the eccentricity certificate we have for the sextant. The last sextant in the table is the sextant that I mentioned in reply #99, whose N.O. number we don't have .
N.O. K&E K&E E.C.
# # Date Date
405 18446 1908 N/A
415 4940 1901 1936
575 5418 1901 1918
1555 37548 1918 1919
N/A 4730 1900 1942
The dates of manufacture would of course be the earliest the sextants could have appeared at the Naval Observatory, while the eccentricity certificate dates may represent re-certifications rather that the first certification of the sextant.
The K&E sextant with an N.O. number 1555 is only a few removed from our holy grail sextant, N.O. #1542; if we have a correct date for the K&E sextant then it would seem that the sextant with N.O. #1542 passed through the Naval Observatory for the first time in 1918 or 1919. It is interesting to note that the Ludolph sextant that Noonan gave to a fellow Pan Am pilot, has a 1919 manufacture 1919 (as indicated by the Roman numerals XIX).
Fascinating.
I'll try to expand the Ameliapedia article (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro) tomorrow morning--oh, no, I mean, later this same morning!--unless Bruce beats me to it.
If the K&E folks have tables like that, maybe some Brandis collectors do, too.
... it appears that if Gallagher’s sextant box once held a USNO sextant it was assigned its N.O. number in 1918 or 1919 and therefore this would be the earliest that our castaway could have arrived at Gardner. ...
And yet another sextant appears on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-WW1-U-S-NAVY-BRANDIS-SONS-SEXTANT-Captain-KLEIN-AIRSHIP-COMMANDER-/130782684441?pt=UK_Collectables_Scientific_MJ&hash=item1e73416519), this one marked 'Brandis & Sons, Brooklyn NY', with serial number 4522 stamped into the arc. The Naval Observatory number is 1868.
I had quick look at list, But didn't see maker number 2919 so here is link to ended ebay page http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brandis-U-S-Navy-Survey-1946-Sextant-Mahogany-Box-/160623039450 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brandis-U-S-Navy-Survey-1946-Sextant-Mahogany-Box-/160623039450)
Hello all, I am a newbie to the forum, this only being my third post. I have came across a web sight that has a plethora of sextant, and octant information, and photos. http://landandseacollection.com/id2.html (http://landandseacollection.com/id2.html)
I apologize if this source of information is already within this thread. Did not see it posted anywhere. Furthermore, I have a distant relative, whom lives in town, that I am told has a extensive collection of antique sextants. I am in the midst of making arrangements to examine his sextant collection. I am very excited about it, and hope that I can produce some valuable information, and photos for the table in Ameliapedia..
The Land and Sea Collection doesn't have any Brandis sextants or boxes. Those are the only ones, to my knowledge, that have, to date, exhibited the pairs of numbers found on the Niku Sextant.
[
Well, actually I do see a tantalizing image of a Brandis sextant and its box (http://landandseacollection.com/id858.html) on the Land and Sea Collection! And on the arc of the sextant (or more properly, apparently it's a "quintant" rather than a "sextant") is the typical scribing of the Navy number. The last digit is obscured by the apparatus covering over it, but the Navy number looks to be 142? -- TIGHAR's table of sextants in Ameliapedia (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant#Sextant_Box_Numbers:_Suggestive_Patterns) has an entry for Navy number 1421.
I took the liberty of contacting Mr. Joel Jacobs (Land and Sea collection). He actually responded within 1 hour of my inquiry. ...
I took the liberty of contacting Mr. Joel Jacobs (Land and Sea collection). He actually responded within 1 hour of my inquiry. ...
Thanks, Jimmie--much appreciated!
It sounds as though they have been dealing with a much later vintage of instruments than we have been tracking.
If these guys are still around, it might be worthwhile to enlist them in the search.It's not that I had thought badly of them, it is only that it IS funny for them to have such a glaring error on their website and then to make the pompous claim of being the only knowledgeable people left when it comes to sextants. I pointed out this error to Mr. Jacobs, so that he could correct the error and "put his best foot forward" on his website, and got a vitriol filled email in return for my effort, so NOW I do think badly of them.
I know they don't live up to Gary's expectations, but all we need from them are pairs of numbers.
They may even know something about where the Naval Observatory records went.
I took the liberty of contacting Mr. Joel Jacobs (Land and Sea collection). He actually responded within 1 hour of my inquiry. ...
Thanks, Jimmie--much appreciated!
It sounds as though they have been dealing with a much later vintage of instruments than we have been tracking.
Yes that seems to be a fact!! I have exchanged a few e mails with Captain Jacobs, USMM-Ret. It is a good thing, in my opinion to have such a person aware of the Data Table. He may be of help in the future. I have asked Captain Jacobs to analyze the info. He seems to be a fan of TIGHAR and says he will gladly analyze the info on Ameliapedia, and respond to us as soon as he gets the time. Although he is not very knowledgeable on Brandis sextants, you never know when someone working in the field he does, will stumble upon a tantalizing piece of evidence, and think of us!!! ;D
GaryOh yes I can. We all know that the word sextant has come to be used to generally describe all of these instruments, be they octants, sextants or quintants, much like the word Xerox has come to be the common name for all copying machines, no matter the name of the actual manufacturer. Mr. Morris was using "sextant" in its generic sense while Mr. Jacobs was not. The reason that I can have it both ways is that Mr. Jacobs, himself, carefully defined a sextant as covering 90° so he was clearly, carefully, not using the word "sextant" in its generic form but in its accurate, specific form. And he got it wrong.
Not to quibble or anything, but the guy on your link who you claim DOES KNOW something about Brandis Sextants, Mr. Morris, describes the instrument held by Admiral Byrd as being a sextant:
Seems your expert can't get it right either, and is prone to the same problem as Mr. Jacobs, calling all of these instruments generally "sextants" and then further refining that depending upon the actual arc covered by the instrument.
I think you might cut a little bit of slack to Mr. Jacobs if you are going to tout Mr. Morris as being an expert. You can't have it both ways.
Andrew
New eBay listing Brandis # 5577 and NO # 4485
Listing (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEXTANT-CASE-Nautical-1941-USN-Mohogany-Case-BRANDIS-SONS-INC-/350657321510?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51a4ce1a26)
Furthermore, I have a distant relative, whom lives in town, that I am told has a extensive collection of antique sextants. I am in the midst of making arrangements to examine his sextant collection.
Sorry for my late response. I went and checked out the collection, It proved to be much older than anything of interest to us. All of them were from the 1800's.
Hey Marty, I don't seem to see this Brandis on the table.. http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/subject-to-vat-sextant.-an-unusual-black-an-1-c-oc49e9s6w6 (http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/subject-to-vat-sextant.-an-unusual-black-an-1-c-oc49e9s6w6) There is no picture But the numbers listed in the description are 3239, and Navy # 0.850.
Brandis | 3227 | 845 |
Brandis | 3239 | 850 |
I'm going to guess that there is a transcription error. We haven't seen any decimal NO numbers. Instead of Navy # 0.850, I've put it in the table as Navy O. #850 (reading the "O" as "Observeratory" rather than a zero), which makes it match very closely with the preceding entry:
3227 845 3239 850
Regarding the sextant with Brandis number 3239 and N.O. number 850, an important point to note is that the seller reports the sextant as "Brandis & Sons Mfg. Co. Brooklyn". As I explained here (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,183.msg20698.html#msg20698), Brandis went by three slightly different names during its existence as an instrument manufacturer. 'Brandis & Sons Mfg. Co.' was the name used from 1916 onwards so that indicates the sextant was manufactured no earlier than 1916. It would be interesting to subscribe to the vendor's web site and find out why the seller indicated it to be circa 1918; I would guess that that 1918 is the date of the eccentricity certificate. If so, that would provide a 'no later than' date for this sextant, and the date range it was assigned N.O. number 850 is probably 1916-1918.
Was just reading and researching, and I came across this collection of Brandis. http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/cons.cfm?id=6298 (http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/cons.cfm?id=6298) Some of the numbers that I see, seem a bit odd, in comparison to the table. Using the magnifier, you can see that there are stenciled numbers on the sextants, and boxes..
Hi All
Could the box under Fred Noonan's hat be a sextant box ?
You can see the hat clearly overlap's side's of box so we have good idea of box size.
Worth a closer look i believe
Thank's Richie
Could the box under Fred Noonan's hat be a sextant box ?
Can i ask you your reasoning behind previous comments ?
Found another Brandis & sons, http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/solid-brass-w-silver-inlay-brandis-sons-sextant (http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/solid-brass-w-silver-inlay-brandis-sons-sextant) Has NO# 1810, and no box...
Found another Brandis & sons, http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/solid-brass-w-silver-inlay-brandis-sons-sextant (http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/solid-brass-w-silver-inlay-brandis-sons-sextant) Has NO# 1810, and no box...
Thanks, Jimmie.
We need the other number--the Brandis serial number--to make a pair for the sextant table.
... too bad there was not a better description for us. I will make sure both numbers are documented, on any future post I make within this thread.
Looks like another Brandis showed up on eBay, Navy 1982 and Brandis 4717.
The Sextant itself is USNO 4017 and Brandis 5156
The Box is USNO 4717 and Brandis 1982
small error in the comments to USNO 4017
Currently says:
eBay; in box for UNSO 1717/1982
but should say 4717/1982
Is the list of sextant numbers still being compiled? Ebay has a very nice Brandis & Sons, Inc. survey sextant for sale now. Brandis number 5577, USNO number 4485. Inspected in 1941.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEXTANT-CASE-Nautical-1916-1932-USN-Mohogany-Case-BRANDIS-SONS-INC-/350765553573?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51ab4197a5 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEXTANT-CASE-Nautical-1916-1932-USN-Mohogany-Case-BRANDIS-SONS-INC-/350765553573?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51ab4197a5)
I see it now :-[ . Geez, I checked that list twice before posting...
Here is another brandis showing up on eBayI've added this one to the table in Ameliapedia (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro#Sextant_Box_Numbers:_Suggestive_Patterns).
DD-359 is possibly the US Destroyer USS Winslow (DD-359) which began construction in 1933, and commissioned in 1937 according to this Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Winslow_(DD-359) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Winslow_(DD-359))
If so, it is interesting that they were still issuing 1920's sextants to ships being commissioned as late as 1937. The NO date looks like 12-23-1932.
Marty, can you annotate B# 4672 and add box #4667 to the Ameliapedia?
New Brandis on eBay, looks like Navy 1565. The NO sticker from 1950 lists the maker's number as No No. which seems odd, perhaps they just didn't look hard enough. N.O. 1565 can be seen etched on the arc.
Here is the response from the seller:
<<<<<<<<
Hello Andrew,
Thank you for taking the time to email! I see a three digit number (153) stamped twice on the backside of the unit, notihing on the wood.
The box is marked #1565, 62306-004879. I've reached my limit for photos, but would be happy to email you more if you like.
Thanks again,
>>>>>>>>>>
I'm waiting for photos to be sent to me. Odd that it has 153 stamped twice on the back as opposed to stamped into the left end of the arc where we've seen the serial numbers in the past.
I'll wait to see what comes in the form of photos.
Hello all, was surfing the web and I came across this David White Co. sextant. http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/atq/3918298723.html (http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/atq/3918298723.html)
Interesting that by 1941 it appears the Navy was adding the year to the NO number.
Hello all, was surfing the web and I came across this David White Co. sextant. http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/atq/3918298723.html Down here in HOT!!!! Florida..Jimmie, you inspired me to surf today, too, and I ran across a site listing another David White Co. sextant (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11955279_1941-us-naval-sextant-observatory-david-white-co). It is shown as apparently having been sold to a bidder in July 2012 for $200.
Yes, Marty, and Andrew. Tomorrow, I would be more than happy to contact the owner. I will ask for close up pictures of the front plaque,and the Naval Observatory inspection sticker. I will report back ASAP.Hello all, was surfing the web and I came across this David White Co. sextant. http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/atq/3918298723.html (http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/atq/3918298723.html)
Thanks, Jimmie. It's a very interesting piece. Would you try contacting the owner to get a photo of the plaque on the front? It would be interesting to see what that tells us about the box. I don't see any rhyme or reason to what looks like "x9773-" and "R1" on top of the box.
Bruce, I am happy to have inspired you!! Thank you for posting the links.Hello all, was surfing the web and I came across this David White Co. sextant. http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/atq/3918298723.html Down here in HOT!!!! Florida..Jimmie, you inspired me to surf today, too, and I ran across a site listing another David White Co. sextant (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11955279_1941-us-naval-sextant-observatory-david-white-co). It is shown as apparently having been sold to a bidder in July 2012 for $200.
Hello all, was surfing the web and I came across this David White Co. sextant. http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/atq/3918298723.html (http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/atq/3918298723.html)
Thanks, Jimmie. It's a very interesting piece. Would you try contacting the owner to get a photo of the plaque on the front? It would be interesting to see what that tells us about the box. I don't see any rhyme or reason to what looks like "x9773-" and "R1" on top of the box.
Oops, missed the second pic some how.. Here we go..
You are very welcome Marty, Nor have I. The answers we seek are out there somewhere. Attached to a string or two. ;)Oops, missed the second pic some how.. Here we go..
Thanks, Jim. That sure looks like a very official NO plaque. I'm not sure I've seen one like that before.
I'll going to ask about numbers on the box.
He has a narrative about Brandis sextants and their numbering that I haven't fully digested yet.
Looks like Navy 348 / Brandis 2763 just popped up on eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/F-E-Brandis-Sons-Co-Sextant-Antique-1911-United-States-Navy-Original-Case-/390659293992?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:3160
I'll going to ask about numbers on the box.
He has a narrative about Brandis sextants and their numbering that I haven't fully digested yet.
Andrew
Looks like Navy 348 / Brandis 2763 just popped up on eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/F-E-Brandis-Sons-Co-Sextant-Antique-1911-United-States-Navy-Original-Case-/390659293992?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:3160
I'll going to ask about numbers on the box.
He has a narrative about Brandis sextants and their numbering that I haven't fully digested yet.
Andrew
In response to numbers on the box near the hinge, or a NO calibration sticker, Seller says:
"Sorry I don't see either one, other than the number on the box is the same as the sextant...."
USNO 4572
Brandis 4029
for the box
And
USNO 4296
Brandis 4750
for the instrument
"Hezzanith Observatory" "London" embossed on a round coat of arms. Bellow that was the Certificate of Examination for sextant No. P-202, dated August, 1945.
We only suspect that one is from the manufacturer, and the other from the Naval Observatory.
Marty - this is a reminder to get the numbers in the last post into the Wikipedia if you haven't already done so.
Marty - this is a reminder to get the numbers in the last post into the Wikipedia if you haven't already done so.
More info on the Fiala Brandis
When did Brandis change from putting maker's number on the frame to the arc, or vice versa?
Two Brandis Sextants showed up on eBay
This one has USNO # 4812. In one of the photos, I think I see the Brandis number 3298. I've asked about the serial number to verify. Doesn't appear to be a box with this unit.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=131202642055&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=131202642055&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123)
Sorry if this has been posted previously
:)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MARINE-SEXTANT-BY-COOKE-OF-HULL-NO-1668-IN-ORIGINAL-BOX-AND-IN-GOOD-CONDITION-/351083732093?pt=UK_Antiques_Marine_RL&hash=item51be389c7d (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MARINE-SEXTANT-BY-COOKE-OF-HULL-NO-1668-IN-ORIGINAL-BOX-AND-IN-GOOD-CONDITION-/351083732093?pt=UK_Antiques_Marine_RL&hash=item51be389c7d)
Thanks
Different Brandis on eBay, this one made into a lamp!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221466836499&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221466836499&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123)
I asked the seller if there are any numbers to be found.
Update
Seller says:
"Hello I found on the one backside of the piece of wood 5391 and on the other side of the piece of wood it says you USED looks like I added those two photos to the auction I hope this helps you"
I don't think we've ever seen a Brandis with the numbers in the wood of the handle. This would be a fairly high serial number,second highest one we've seen, and one that perhaps never made it into the USNO inventory.
I think the USED is actually U.S.E.D, as in United States, E..... D...... as it appears to me that there are periods between the letters. No idea what the U.S.E.D. might be. Education Department?
will attempt to post photos
Andrew
Latest Sextant on eBay
Brandis 4182
USNO 2868
No Box
| Brandis | 4180 | 2859 | eBay; (no box) | N/A | |||
| Brandis | 4182 | 2868 | eBay; (no box) | | N/A | ||
| Brandis | 4180 | 2895 | | Bill Morris (http://sextantbook.com/) | no |
I noticed that too.
My guess is that the one with the link to Bill Morris is probably correct, and the numbers of the other one are simply transposed 59 instead of 95.
Searching the Forum for Bill Morris, I find this post from yourself, below. Would appear that 2895 is the right Navy number.
Will let you know what they say.
Navy 2959
Brandis 5289
I wasn't sure if this sextant was relevant to your database, but i didn't see it listed while searching the TIGHAR forums and wiki.
I am guessing it was not a calibrated US Navy item, but I'm not sure.
another Brandis listed on eBay today
...
USNO 2687
Brandis 4934
Box # 4934
Andrew
What is curious to me about the Smithsonian sextant is that it supposedly includes a Wilson Bubble Telescope (supposedly making it usable from an aircraft) but I don't see anything in the box that looks like it might be a bubble telescope.
I don't think we've seen a 3 digit Brandis number before.
Brandis Box #3806
Brandis # 127
US Navy # 1879
Brandis 127 1879 purchased by TIGHAR member
Brandis 4297 1880 1939-09-18 TIGHAR - McKenna
Another Brandis has turned up on eBay. Facebook reader Barbara Olds says, " The box is stamped Brandis and there's a stencilled 4934 near the hingess. The sextant has a NO number 2687. I can't see the Brandis number on the sextant and I can't see an NO number on the box."
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BRANDIS-amp-SON-039-S-SEXTANT-STAMPED-U-S-NAVY-ORIG-BOX-PRICED-2-SELL-/311227938621?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4876a1773d&nma=true&si=FEQ7%252BIpQKlh6Pzfrq4q2AyhoCtw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BRANDIS-amp-SON-039-S-SEXTANT-STAMPED-U-S-NAVY-ORIG-BOX-PRICED-2-SELL-/311227938621?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4876a1773d&nma=true&si=FEQ7%252BIpQKlh6Pzfrq4q2AyhoCtw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
http://www.westsea.com/05navmilitary.html (http://www.westsea.com/05navmilitary.html)
Item 5.58 ....
Number 3832 Navy Number 4831
Was this one added, don't know info on it.
http://www.antiquesnavigator.com/d-802087/rare-wwii-us-navy-brandis-sextant-naval-navigation-instrument-antique-1942-2.html (http://www.antiquesnavigator.com/d-802087/rare-wwii-us-navy-brandis-sextant-naval-navigation-instrument-antique-1942-2.html)
Brandis Box #3806
Brandis # 127
US Navy # 1879
OK, I've added it to the table (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro#Sextant_Box_Numbers:_Suggestive_Patterns).
It sits right next to 1880.Code: [Select]Brandis 127 1879 purchased by TIGHAR member
Brandis 4297 1880 1939-09-18 TIGHAR - McKenna
We have a correction on the numbers of this sextant. Seems that the Brandis number is actually 3806 to match the box
... with 127 imprinted elsewhere on the sextant. Not sure what this means as I don't think we've seen a third number pop up on a sextant before.
In any case, we're back to only 4 digit Brandis numbers.
Marty
We have a correction on the numbers of this sextant. Seems that the Brandis number is actually 3806 to match the box, with 127 imprinted elsewhere on the sextant. Not sure what this means as I don't think we've seen a third number pop up on a sextant before. In any case, we're back to only 4 digit Brandis numbers.
Brandis 3806
Navy 1879
I'll actually get a chance to see this instrument a week from now and will have a better idea after that.
AndrewBrandis Box #3806
Brandis # 127
US Navy # 1879
OK, I've added it to the table (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro#Sextant_Box_Numbers:_Suggestive_Patterns).
It sits right next to 1880.Code: [Select]Brandis 127 1879 purchased by TIGHAR member
Brandis 4297 1880 1939-09-18 TIGHAR - McKenna
Upon closer inspection, it would appear that this unit is Navy 4879 rather than 1879, see attached photos
Anyone read Russian?
Found this article;
http://uiobservatory.omeka.net/items/show/40 (http://uiobservatory.omeka.net/items/show/40)
New eBay listing
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BRANDIS-SONS-NAUTICAL-SEXTANT-Original-Box-Amazing-L-K-/191524090278?ssPageName=ADME:SS:SS:US:3160
Looks to me like the serial number is on the right end of the arc and it indicated NO 2539. Typically the Brandis numbers are 4 digits at the left end of the arc.
And it has a hand etched number on the frame of 161-U(?)SN-252222. Usually the USN number is hand etched at the middle of the arc.
This one is interesting. It is an F.E. Brandis, Sons & Co, Brooklyn NY unit, which would seem to pre-date the Brandis & Sons Mfgr Co. Here is a quick history from the Smithsonian site:
http://amhistory.si.edu/surveying/maker.cfm?makerid=5 (http://amhistory.si.edu/surveying/maker.cfm?makerid=5)
Frederick Ernest Brandis (1845–1916) was born in Germany, came to the United States in 1858, worked for Stackpole & Brother for a few years, and then opened his own instrument shop in 1871. The firm became F. Brandis & Co. in 1875, F. E. Brandis, Sons & Co. in 1890, and Brandis & Sons Mfg. Co. in 1916. The Pioneer Instrument Company purchased control of Brandis in 1922, and sold it to the Bendix Aviation Corporation in 1928. The manufacture of Brandis instruments ceased in 1932.
So, it would seem that this unit had to be manufactured between 1890 and 1916. Perhaps it pre-dates most of the sextants we've seen, hence the unusual placement of the serial number.
I've asked the seller if there are any other numbers on the instrument or the box.
Andrew
So, what we have here is an oddity
Brandis 2539 at the right end of the arc
Navy 25222 etched on the frame
in Box # 2827 stamped into the wood
with US Navy stamped at the left end of the arc
So, what we have here is an oddity
Brandis 2539 at the right end of the arc
Navy 25222 etched on the frame
in Box # 2827 stamped into the wood
with US Navy stamped at the left end of the arc
I put it in the table (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro#Sextant_Box_Numbers:_Suggestive_Patterns) twice.
2827 looks like a normal N.O. die-punched number
I see the hand-etched string as ""161 - USN - 252222"
Older Navy numbering system? Predecessor to the 4-digit system?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-US-NAVY-SEXTANT-BRANDIS-SON-BROOKLYN-NY-/281661274832? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-US-NAVY-SEXTANT-BRANDIS-SON-BROOKLYN-NY-/281661274832?)
This one has USNO # 1110 etched on the arc.
Update on this sextant.
Seller relates that the number on the instrument matches the number on the box, 5851.
So we've got
Brandis 5851
Navy 1110
This will be the second to highest Brandis number we've seen, but with a relatively low USNO number. Go figure.
Sure would be interesting to locate the Naval Observatory archives.
Andrew
Brandis 5851
Navy 1110
This will be the second to highest Brandis number we've seen, but with a relatively low USNO number. Go figure.
Sure would be interesting to locate the Naval Observatory archives.
Brandis 5851
Navy 1110
This will be the second to highest Brandis number we've seen, but with a relatively low USNO number. Go figure.
It makes 3500/1542 (Niku box) and 3547/173 (Pensacola box from Noonan) seem less weird.
We knew that the relationship between the two kinds of numbers was pretty random--but not THAT random!QuoteSure would be interesting to locate the Naval Observatory archives.
Yup.
Brandis 3249 with the number printed on the frame under the Brandis name
Navy 836
We need to capture screenshots of these instruments and their numbers while the images are available on the web, particularly those that pop up on eBay. Many of the images of units we've linked to in the Ameliapedia matrix are either not functional, or the images have been removed, so there is no way to now go back and verify either the numbers, the frame types, or anything else.
Newly added Brandis on eBay this am
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BRANDIS-SONS-NAUTICAL-SEXTANT-Navy-836-/141656162631? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BRANDIS-SONS-NAUTICAL-SEXTANT-Navy-836-/141656162631?)
Would appear to be
Brandis 3249 with the number printed on the frame under the Brandis name
Navy 836
No numbers on the box are visible.
The instrument frame is different than many others we've looked at, and I suspect that it is older. The Brandis and the Navy numbers are pretty early in the matrix.
Andrew
Seller confirms that the number 3249 is on both the outside and inside of the box.
I think the 9 is there as I see it. Looks a bit like an S, but keep looking at it and the 9 will pop out if you close in the top of the S.
I think the 9 is there as I see it. Looks a bit like an S, but keep looking at it and the 9 will pop out if you close in the top of the S.
3249 on the unit, 3249 written inside the box, 324? on the outside of the box, and the seller indicating that it is 3249 on both the inside and outside of the box.
I don't think it takes the WIX braintrust or forensic photo analysis to figure this one out.
Andrew
What ever happened to the guy that was actually going to go through old boxes of records from the observatory?
I think the 9 is there as I see it. Looks a bit like an S, but keep looking at it and the 9 will pop out if you close in the top of the S.Careful now, Andrew... you probably need to be more qualified in 'forensic photo analysis' to say such a thing...
3249 on the unit, 3249 written inside the box, 324? on the outside of the box, and the seller indicating that it is 3249 on both the inside and outside of the box.
I don't think it takes the WIX braintrust or forensic photo analysis to figure this one out.
Andrew
For those who are interested, another Brandis on eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-U-S-Navy-4510-Brandis-Sons-Nautical-Sextant-AS-IS-/261877816552?fromMakeTrack=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-U-S-Navy-4510-Brandis-Sons-Nautical-Sextant-AS-IS-/261877816552?fromMakeTrack=true)
Brandis 3596
Navy 4510
No box
7.5 inch radius
Andrew
Brandis 3596
Navy 4510
No box
7.5 inch radius
Any idea who put that together? Would be great to collaborate with them.
It's all very impressive in a way, but I think Tighar has been merely chasing a ghost. I'm afraid that believing that the Nikumaroro Hypothesis is true is just wishful thinking...
Andrew, did you read this part of the site?
It may temper your enthusiasm:QuoteIt's all very impressive in a way, but I think Tighar has been merely chasing a ghost. I'm afraid that believing that the Nikumaroro Hypothesis is true is just wishful thinking...
There are no other markings."
The photo help him locate the Brandis number on the instrument:Earlier today I had predicted to myself that the serial number would begin with "33" or "34". ;D
<<<<<<<<<
Thanks Andrew – that helped.
The serial number is 3360
>>>>>>>>>>>
So if I got this straight, we have
Brandis 3360
USN 1446
With box for Brandis 4131
Apparently no USN number on the box.
Andrew
Brandis 3360
USN 1446
With box for Brandis 4131
Apparently no USN number on the box.
The photo help him locate the Brandis number on the instrument:Earlier today I had predicted to myself that the serial number would begin with "33" or "34". ;D
<<<<<<<<<
Thanks Andrew – that helped.
The serial number is 3360
>>>>>>>>>>>
So if I got this straight, we have
Brandis 3360
USN 1446
With box for Brandis 4131
Apparently no USN number on the box.
Andrew
Are you clairvoyant, or is there a pattern emerging, sho' nuff?
New listing on eBay Ebay Brandis Listing (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-U-S-NAVY-NAUTICAL-SEXTANT-MADE-BY-BRANDIS-L-A-TO-HAWAII-TRANSPAC-RACE-/11169)
Brandis 4707 The Number is very faint on arc. The number 4707 is listed on the paper certificate of eccentricity.
NO number 1969 on arc plus stamped on box plus listed on certificate.
Another Brandis on eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Vintage-Brandis-Sons-Brooklyn-Sextant-US-Naval-Issue-2676-1916-1932-/231623412413? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Vintage-Brandis-Sons-Brooklyn-Sextant-US-Naval-Issue-2676-1916-1932-/231623412413?)
Photo shows Navy 2676, but no Brandis serial number. No Box.
I've asked the seller to look for a serial number and will let you know what I hear.
Andrew
Here is another one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-WWII-U-S-NAVY-NAUTICAL-SEXTANT-BRANDIS-4834-c1930s-/201411583015? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-WWII-U-S-NAVY-NAUTICAL-SEXTANT-BRANDIS-4834-c1930s-/201411583015?)
Looks like the box is
Brandis #4834
Navy # 2564
Here is another one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-WWII-U-S-NAVY-NAUTICAL-SEXTANT-BRANDIS-4834-c1930s-/201411583015?
Looks like the box is
Brandis #4834
Navy # 2564
On the instrument it looks like Navy 2564 as well. I've asked the seller to verify the numbers on the instrument itself
amck
Andrew,
To expand on my last post here: Is there a grouping number around the A.E. box number and the Brandis number that may indicate a large government (Navy) purchase?
Is there a grouping number around the A.E. box and the Navy's Observatories recallabration inspection numbers?
Ted
These are good questions.
These are good questions.
Thanks for the great answer, Andrew!
I don't have time to insert this into the Ameliapedia article (http://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro) this week, but I hope to come back to it later.
A Keuffel and Esser sextant with a Naval Observatory number is listed on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231662444989 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/231662444989)
K&E number 37508, USNO number 1595, and a USN number, 161-USN-252194.
Brandis | 2539 |
| | ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BRANDIS-SONS-NAUTICAL-SEXTANT-Original-Box-Amazing-L-K-/191524090278?ssPageName=ADME:SS:SS:US:3160); "U.S. Navy on one end of arc; "161 - USN - 25222" hand-engraved; |
Number on box by right hinge = 3268
Large stenciled number on front of box = 882
U.S. Navy number on arc = 945
What's interesting is in reply #339 of this thread Andrew lists a box with 883 stenciled on the outside.
Number on box by right hinge = 3268
Large stenciled number on front of box = 882
U.S. Navy number on arc = 945
Update: Seller reports Brandis number on arc as 3738.
Seller reports radius as 6&7/8in from the axis to the outer edge of the vernier. (does that count as a 6&1/2" radius?
Seller already answered question about the stenciled "882" by stating they purchased the sextant at a market and thus have no idea of its significance.
What's interesting is in reply #339 of this thread Andrew lists a box with 883 stenciled on the outside.
I think you need to correct something on the table. If I understand what we have, it should be:
On the Sextant
Brandis 3738
Navy 945
On the box
Brandis 3268
Navy (?) 882 (stenciled on outside of box)
The Brandis # is imprinted at the right end of the arc as opposed to the left end.
Marty, "159" not "154."
New Brandis on eBay. Navy 2743 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW1-NAVY-SEXTANT-MAKER-IS-BRANDIS-SONS-INC-/121886697795?hash=item1c61036943:g:k3MAAOSwL7VWtQkG)
Number on box = 4902
Contacted seller asking if there is a number on the left end of the arc.
No paper in box.
Seller says it is SN# 2553, but I can't see that in any of the photos. That would be a very early serial number in our list, perhaps pre WWI, hence no Navy number.
Another Brandis on eBayThe description of this sextant says it has two names engraved on its arc, presumably by its owner. One of the names is H. W. Hill.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sextant-Antique-Brandis-Sons-Precision-Instrument-Brooklyn-NY-Brass-WW1-era-/152190285976? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sextant-Antique-Brandis-Sons-Precision-Instrument-Brooklyn-NY-Brass-WW1-era-/152190285976?)
I've sent a question to the seller re any numbers to be found.
Andrew
Yet another Brandis Sextant on Ebay today:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW1-Era-Brandis-Sons-Sextant-Complete-in-Box-Naval-Observatory-1919-NICE-/272382922128? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW1-Era-Brandis-Sons-Sextant-Complete-in-Box-Naval-Observatory-1919-NICE-/272382922128?)
Maker's number as shown on collimation sheet is 5317, NO number on sextant bow and box is 4193, shown in photos.
Date of inspection by USNO: April 2, 1919
adr
It is isn't what I don't know that gets me in trouble, it is the things I do know that aren't true. My recollection was that the NO number was generally placed on the sextant arc, and the maker's number elsewhere.
If the number is in the middle of the arc, and hand etched, it is probably an NO number.
If it is at the end of the arc and die stamped, it is probably a maker's number. So the number at the end of the arc and printed on the case is likely the maker's number, "4193," just as you say.
That leaves open the question of the reference to the maker's number of USNO ticket, 5307. We can see it isn't 5307. Is the ticket for a different sextant, or did the USNO guy put the USNO number in the wrong place on the form? Then there is the seller's reference to "4161" as the USNO number, but no photo. Is 4161 the "real" USNO number, and 5307 just a red herring?
Sigh.
Brandis on Ebay - not sure this one got reported
This one is interesting in that the name and the serial number are found in the center of the arc, rather than off to the left end.
I suspect that this unit never made it into the USN inventory of sextants.
Brandis 4521
USNO 1648
With 58281 in pencil inside the lid on what looks like a repair or addition. see the photo.
... US NAVY N 4516.
Case is also marked with the number 4516.
... Brandis 3920 on the left side of the scale
...
I didn't see it reported in our list, so I hope I'm not repeating a previous find.
The inscriptions read "BRANDIS & SONS, BROOKLYN, N.Y." and "5670." The words "U.S. Navy-N-4705" are scratched onto the arc.
So, I guess the eBay listing was some sort of bogus posting. Go figure.
I have been requested by the author of this blog, The Ghost of Gardner Island, to post a link to it
gardnerghost.blogspot.com/2016/11/a-brandis-sextant-taxonomy-surveying.html (http://gardnerghost.blogspot.com/2016/11/a-brandis-sextant-taxonomy-surveying.html)
It contains (among other things) some discussions of Brandis sextants that are relevant to this thread.
Edited by MXM to make the link work.
The plot thickens
Marty asks "5760 or 5670?"
Sextant 5760 listed on the Smithsonian site
http://amhistory.si.edu/navigation/object.cfm?recordnumber=1087501 (http://amhistory.si.edu/navigation/object.cfm?recordnumber=1087501)
Vs number 5670, as indicated on this site:
http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_1087501 (http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_1087501)
I asked Deb Warner of the Physical Sciences Collection if she could verify the actual serial number, and here is her reply:
<<<<<<<<<<<<
Andrew:
I just looked again at the Brandis sextant. The correct s/n is 5670. I would like to correct listing on the NMAH collections site, but the technology behind that site is so old that changes are now impossible.
Deborah
>>>>>>>>>>>
So it is
Brandis 5670
Navy 4705
in box # 3946
Calibration Label indicates
Brandis 3898
Navy 4842
Looks like 3898 on the Box as well.
Couple of Brandis popped up on eBay today.
First looks like Serial 6028 in Box 3850
http://www.ebay.com/itm/122449968517?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/122449968517?ul_noapp=true)
From the photos, I can't see any USNO number etched on the arc. I'll ask the seller if there is one.
Interesting that the serial number is in its own little polished "bubble". I would take that, along with the high serial number, and no USNO number to mean that this unit is a later manufactured instrument compared to most of the sextants we've seen, and probably was never in the Navy inventory.
Andrew
Seller of this first sextant says the following
"Hi. Yes, the number is 6028 and the box says 3850. There are no numbers etched on the arc or on the box. It appears that a label may have been removed from the inner lid, but it is no longer with the set. Thanks for your interest."Couple of Brandis popped up on eBay today.
First looks like Serial 6028 in Box 3850
http://www.ebay.com/itm/122449968517?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/122449968517?ul_noapp=true)
From the photos, I can't see any USNO number etched on the arc. I'll ask the seller if there is one.
Interesting that the serial number is in its own little polished "bubble". I would take that, along with the high serial number, and no USNO number to mean that this unit is a later manufactured instrument compared to most of the sextants we've seen, and probably was never in the Navy inventory.
Andrew
Marty asks (I had to get my magnifying glass out to read the teeny tiny print !)
So, the box matches the sticker and originally held Brandis 5756, USNO 1114
Seller of the second sextant has the following to say
"Hi.
There are no numbers at the left end of the arc. All numbers are shown in images, some of which are new. The number on the box is 5756."
Checking the posting again,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332184487778?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/332184487778?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
there are some new photos of the USNO number on the arc, and the calibration stickers from 1935 and 1937. The numbers on the stickers and the instrument of course do not match, so bear with me.
The sextant
Serial unknown
USNO # 1142
The Box
5756 stenciled (Brandis)
The calibration sticker
USNO 1114
Brandis 5756
So, the box matches the sticker and originally held Brandis 5756, USNO 1114
Instrument in the box is Brandis ????, USNO 1142.
I've asked the seller to please eyeball the instrument again for the serial number at the end of the arc or elsewhere.
Andrew
Anyway, hope useful. Will post full details including links as soon as someone lets me know how.
Hi Marty
Can't make that work either.
Shall I just send to the general Tighar email address ?
Paul
Done, sent to this mail.
The mysterious "Weems 805W" on the inspection certificate is tantalizing.
Brandis #5524
USNO #4374
in Box #4065
Another Brandis on eBay today
http://www.ebay.com/itm/222542741960?ul_noapp=true
Seller confirms that the instrument is
Brandis #5524
USNO #4374
in Box #4065
amck
Little fuzzy, but looks like #5584?
Here is a photo I got from the seller
pretty clearly 5524 vs 5584
Regarding the “sextant box table” you have been maintaining; are there enough entries today to conduct a statistical analysis to determine the odds of the Niku box i.e. #3500/1542 coming out of the Navy’s laboratory around the time of AE’s flight?
Thanks for the response. What I was suggesting is, let’s sort out all the Brandis 3XXX boxes and analyze the Navy numbers on those boxes. Hopefully, we have some Navy dates associated with their numbers that would narrow the date period.
Please explain the entries for: Box no. 3511/1585 – TIGHAR and Box no. 3527/1599 – TIGHAR.
I thought we were working on Box 3500/1542 where did these other numbers come from?
OK, this took a while to sort out.
I've done a temporary sextants table (http://tighar.org/wiki/Temporary_sextant_table) so that Andrew and others can see the new items that you proposed to add to the big table.
With any luck, I've also attached the spreadsheet that Paul emailed me, with coloring and comments. I've made some corrections in inspection dates and made decisions about various numbers.
The last entry, Brandis 5996/6006 is most interesting. I think it is an aviation quadrant, with an electric light (see the wires and the on/off switch on the handle. I suspect that the inspection certificate was for 5996 and that 6006 got placed in the wrong box. The mysterious "Weems 805W" on the inspection certificate is tantalizing.
If we're going down the statistical analysis road, are any of the 13 sextants I sent through some weeks back going to make the main table ? Might make sense...
Brandis 5214 (based upon question answered by seller)
Navy 2900
I've asked the seller to confirm the serial numbers on the instrument and the box.
This would seem to be an early instrument in that both numbers are relatively low in comparison to what we've seen up to now.
TIGHAR member Jim Thompson spotted a new Brandis offering on ebay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/372121687425?ul_noapp=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/372121687425?ul_noapp=true)
Box is for 4798. N.0. number on tag is obscured.
Makers number on arc looks like 4836.
N.0. number on arc might be 2607.
Brandis #3703
Navy #936
in box for
Brandis #3667
Navy # 889
A shout out to Jim Thompson!Hear, hear!
Instrument is
Brandis 4836
Navy 2607
In box originally made for 4798
I don't think the Navy number is obscured on the tag, there just isn't one. It is the maker's name Brandis that is obscured.
Should this post be moved to the "Can you add to these sextant numbers" thread?
Here's another Brandis, but with no numbers anywhere. ??? Curiouser and curiouser.
There is something wrong here. The photos do not lie. The seller must be looking at a different sextant and box.
He doesn't know as much as we do about sextants and sextant boxes.
Brandis #5375 is listed twice for some reason, and also listed as "Yes" for Bubble, which if you look at the photos in the link, it is clearly not a bubble instrument.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273240849230?ul_noapp=true&autorefresh=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/273240849230?ul_noapp=true&autorefresh=true)
Octant #2679 delivered 1/19/1911. No Navy sticker.
Another Brandis showed up on Ebay yesterday
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273240849230?ul_noapp=true&autorefresh=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/273240849230?ul_noapp=true&autorefresh=true)
Based upon the Brandis sticker inside the lid, the instrument is an Octant #2679 delivered 1/19/1911. No Navy sticker.
I could be wrong, but this seems like the first time we've seen a Brandis Sticker like this inside the box lid.
I've asked the seller if there is a number on the instrument or elsewhere on the box.
Andrew
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273240849230?ul_noapp=true&autorefresh=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/273240849230?ul_noapp=true&autorefresh=true)
Another interesting thing about his one is it has actual dovetail joints. Only the second one like it I have seen.
I've added that comment to the record for the sextant. The joints are very strikingly different from the "finger joints" on other Brandis boxes. Good eyes!
Courtesy of Jim Thompson, this one showed up on eBay today.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173540915739?ul_noapp=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/173540915739?ul_noapp=true)
"..so if it's not written in brass, there is room for doubt."
I think this could be a new mantra!
I could put a little trailing column on the table to help tabulate "Wrong Box" (WB) or "Wrong Sextant" (WS).
It's just an unexpected oddity.
It's just an unexpected oddity.
But it does imply that there is a 22.6% chance that Brandis 3500/NO1542 was not aboard NR16020.
Hmmmm.
Hadn't thought about that wrinkle.
It might also have something to do with why the numbers were scrawled in pencil on the Pensacola box--either to prevent or to fix a shuffle.
I guess, maybe, the error rate does matter somewhat--if our tiny sample taken in the last 30 years or so represents the way things were in 1937.
I have to suit up and show up for Mass at the Missionaries of Charity over on the other side of the Colosseum.
It means that finding out that 3500/1542 was owned by Fred Noonan would not necessarily prove that the box found with the bones belonged to Fred.
... over on the other side of the Colosseum.
Better than having to suit up for an event IN the Colosseum.
It means that finding out that 3500/1542 was owned by Fred Noonan would not necessarily prove that the box found with the bones belonged to Fred.
Fair enough. And, maybe, finding out that 3500/1542 did not belong to Fred would not necessarily mean that he did not take that box aboard with a different sextant in it.
The Seller tells me that the serial number at the left end of the arc is 4919, which matches the number on the Calibration sticker and also a number stenciled on the box near the hinge, with Navy 2659 Etched in the middle of the arc.
He posted a photo of the stenciled number, I've asked him to post a photo of the serial number.
Seems this sextant is in the original box.
Navy: 2693. Brandis: 5015. The photo is a little grainy so these numbers may be up for interpretation.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/43149815_brandis-and-sons-sextant (https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/43149815_brandis-and-sons-sextant)
Interesting post on the “Ghost of Gardner island “ blog about the source of the sextant box.
https://gardnerghost.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-origin-of-nikumaroro-sextant-box.html (https://gardnerghost.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-origin-of-nikumaroro-sextant-box.html)
It looks like it may have come from the Bushnell survey
Is the 1542 a part number, id number, or a number of the box?
I have to admit though the numbers on the documentation cited in the blog post are very interesting.