TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Alternatives to the Niku Hypothesis => Topic started by: Stacy Galloway on December 29, 2015, 03:19:07 PM

Title: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Stacy Galloway on December 29, 2015, 03:19:07 PM
EXCLUSIVE: Could the mystery of Amelia Earhart finally be solved? New book claims she was captured while spying on the Japanese who held her prisoner until 1945 - and she took a new identity when freed (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3377766/Could-mystery-Amelia-Earhart-finally-solved-New-book-claims-captured-spying-Japanese-held-prisoner-1945-took-new-identity-freed.html)
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 29, 2015, 03:23:25 PM
Same old same old.
The claim that government documents about Earhart remain classified is not true.
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Monty Fowler on December 30, 2015, 10:32:48 AM
I solved this mystery a longggggg time ago: http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1560.msg34060.html#msg34060 (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1560.msg34060.html#msg34060) , but I didn't bother to blow my own horn by calling it an "exclusive."

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on December 30, 2015, 09:56:19 PM
Ric says,
"The claim that government documents about Earhart remain classified is not true."

Do you have source material to back up this statement?"
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 30, 2015, 10:23:49 PM
Ric says,
"The claim that government documents about Earhart remain classified is not true."

Do you have source material to back up this statement?"


Here is one piece of evidence.


The FBI files are available online (https://vault.fbi.gov/amelia-mary-earhart).

Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 31, 2015, 08:37:55 AM
Ric says,
"The claim that government documents about Earhart remain classified is not true."

Do you have source material to back up this statement?"

Interesting question.  Think about it for a moment.  What source material could I possibly have that would back up the statement that no government documents about Earhart remain classified? I can list many government documents about Earhart that are not classified.  Marty has pointed out that the FBI files are public information and there are numerous government reports and correspondence published on the TIGHAR website. Beyond that, the exhaustive database of ship's logs, radio logs, radio messages, and weather reports compiled by TIGHAR researcher Dr. Randy Jacobson (see Jacobson Database (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/JacobsonDatabase/JacobsonDB.html)) includes something over 2,000 government documents relative to the Earhart disappearance.  When Randy was doing his research in the early days of the Earhart Project he was working for the Office of Naval Research in Washington, DC and his security clearance went all the way to "Really Neat." Of course, Randy could not tell us the contents of any classified files but he did tell that he could find no classified files related to Earhart.  I've seen copies of replies to generalized Freedom of  Information Act (FOIA) requests asking for the release of any classified document related to Amelia Earhart.  The reply is always, "We don't have any classified files to release."

But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  What if the government is lying? What if those thousands of released files are all cover for Earhart's spy mission?  What if Randy was actually part of the conspiracy of silence? Author Mike Campbell (The Truth At Last (http://www.amazon.com/Amelia-Earhart-Truth-at-Last/dp/1620060566/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1451575293&sr=1-1&keywords=amelia+earhart+the+truth+at+last)) is quite sure that I too am in on the plot.

So where does that leave us? To make a credible claim that the government has files related to Earhart that remain classified you have to know that the file exists and is classified.  To my knowledge, nobody has been able to name any such document. And yet, the author of this new book claims there are something like 113 classified files (nice specific number).  Maybe when his book comes out on January 5 it will have a list of documents in the NARA Finding Aids that cannot be accessed because they are still classified.  If so we'll look into it, but I suspect that any still-classified files, if they exist at all, are naval intelligence files that some conspiracy buffs assume contain information about Earhart.

Looking at the author's page on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/W.C.-Jameson/e/B001JP2VAW/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1) it seems clear that this is not a serious book about the Earhart mystery.  The author cranks out books about treasure hunting.   This latest book is just a rehash of the bizarre, too-dumb-to-discuss Irene Bolam theory first offered by Joe Gervais and Joe Klass in Amelia Earhart Lives! (http://www.amazon.com/Amelia-Earhart-lives-intrigue-Americas/dp/0070350108/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1451574790&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=Amelai+Earhrt+Lives) forty-five years ago. He'll sell a few books. The media and the public have a short memory and an insatiable appetite for stories about Amelia Earhart.  I've even heard it claimed that she died as a castaway on desert island. 
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on December 31, 2015, 10:53:38 AM
Ric says,
"The claim that government documents about Earhart remain classified is not true."

Do you have source material to back up this statement?"


Here is one piece of evidence.


The FBI files are available online (https://vault.fbi.gov/amelia-mary-earhart).

Are you being sarcastic?
FBI FOIA files ???
This tells me you know little of this specific topic.

Ric,
You're extended response tells me you don't have an answer.

By the way,It doesn't matter  whether Randy held A TS clearance.
I still hold two current TS clearances and it doesn't help me one bit in viewing classified files that I don't have a need to know.

I am in no way endorsing the whacko claims claims made by Jameson in his book.
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 31, 2015, 11:06:31 AM
The FBI files are available online (https://vault.fbi.gov/amelia-mary-earhart).

Are you being sarcastic?

No.  Are you?

Quote
FBI FOIA files ???

Yes.

Quote
This tells me you know little of this specific topic.

Ah.

Oddly enough, what little I know has not changed one whit through your posts.

[Any hint of sarcasm in the preceding sentence is intentional.]
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 31, 2015, 12:13:07 PM
Ric,
You're extended response tells me you don't have an answer.

You are correct.  I do not have an answer. That was the point of my extended response.  I also asked you a question.

What source material could I possibly have that would back up the statement that no government documents about Earhart remain classified?

I asked the question because it seems to me that you asked a question that has no answer. 

Perhaps you could do me the courtesy of a reply.
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on December 31, 2015, 02:32:49 PM
Ric says,
"You are correct.  I do not have an answer. That was the point of my extended response.  I also asked you a question.
What source material could I possibly have that would back up the statement that no government documents about Earhart remain classified?
I asked the question because it seems to me that you asked a question that has no answer. 
Perhaps you could do me the courtesy of a reply."

Ric, you made a definitive statement:  “The claim that government documents about Earhart remain classified is not true.”

I responded by asking for your source material for that statement.  In actuality, you don’t know whether there are classified documents about the Earhart mystery.

Still classified files, or documents, pertinent to the Amelia Earhart mystery can only be accessed through the FOIA process and you better be specific. The Government does not help you find classified files. I have filed well over a 100 FOIA’s concerning the Earhart mystery. It's complicated and time consuming. Many are still outstanding after several years. Many have been returned because my requests were “too broad.” Many assigned to the NSA have been circumvented with the “Glomar Response.” Some have been answered with the comment that files for that year have been destroyed. A few have been productive.

Anyone asking the Navy, Marines, or FBI, etc., for their classified files regarding Amelia Earhart will be disappointed.  In that respect you are correct. However, that does not mean there aren’t classified files or documents containing Earhart related material still scattered among various agencies. 

TIGHAR has done outstanding work attempting to solve the Earhart mystery - you're just looking in the wrong area.   
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Bob Smith on December 31, 2015, 02:59:10 PM
A close relative also had a top secret clearance, and from what I was told, that doesn't mean you have access to top secret files anytime you desire. It means you are able to work in areas where top secret information exists and you're required to keep the information from anyone without a need to know. You are not always told what information is classified, or what that classification is, and you are therefore expected to keep all information in your possession as if it was the highest classification, until told otherwise.
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 31, 2015, 04:10:12 PM
Ric says,
"You are correct.  I do not have an answer. That was the point of my extended response.  I also asked you a question.
What source material could I possibly have that would back up the statement that no government documents about Earhart remain classified?
I asked the question because it seems to me that you asked a question that has no answer. 
Perhaps you could do me the courtesy of a reply."

You still haven't answered my question. What source material could I possibly have that would back up the statement that no government documents about Earhart remain classified?
Apparently i was correct in my impression that you asked me a question that has no answer.

Ric, you made a definitive statement:  “The claim that government documents about Earhart remain classified is not true.”

I responded by asking for your source material for that statement.  In actuality, you don’t know whether there are classified documents about the Earhart mystery.

That is correct.  I also don't know whether the government has secret files on space aliens visiting Earth in Flying Saucers.  I only know that I'm aware of no evidence to support such a contention.

Still classified files, or documents, pertinent to the Amelia Earhart mystery can only be accessed through the FOIA process and you better be specific.

You are making the assumption that such files exist.  Do you have any evidence at all to support such an assumption?

The Government does not help you find classified files. I have filed well over a 100 FOIA’s concerning the Earhart mystery. It's complicated and time consuming. Many are still outstanding after several years. Many have been returned because my requests were “too broad.” Many assigned to the NSA have been circumvented with the “Glomar Response.” Some have been answered with the comment that files for that year have been destroyed. A few have been productive.

Now we're getting somewhere. Here's your opportunity to prove me wrong. What classified government files related to the Earhart disappearance have you been successful in getting declassified through a FOIA request?


Anyone asking the Navy, Marines, or FBI, etc., for their classified files regarding Amelia Earhart will be disappointed.

Agreed.

In that respect you are correct. However, that does not mean there aren’t classified files or documents containing Earhart related material still scattered among various agencies. 

True, but if there are still classified files out there somewhere they must be classified either because:
A. Nobody thought to declassify them, in which case they're not part of a cover-up.
or
B. The government is keeping them classified in order to hide something, but there is no evidence that the government is trying to hide anything. 

TIGHAR has done outstanding work attempting to solve the Earhart mystery

Thank you.  Again we're in agreement.

- you're just looking in the wrong area.

Please enlighten us.
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on December 31, 2015, 10:21:26 PM
I had enough, your forum members and guests are smart enough to evaluate your comments.
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 01, 2016, 07:17:20 AM
I had enough, your forum members and guests are smart enough to evaluate your comments.

Once more we are in agreement.
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Monty Fowler on January 01, 2016, 02:20:23 PM
Can't we just all get along and, I don't know, work together to solve this mystery?

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Bob Smith on January 01, 2016, 07:22:37 PM
Good point, Monty! But now I have to go back and review somewhere in the distant past to rediscover what the mystery is (or was). Is it that AE disappeared, or that the government knew something that they had classified, or that they didn't, or that nobody really knows the answer to any of these "mysteries"? If anything about Amelia was classified, how would we know? If anybody wanted to know what was classified and what was not, we would have to be JE Hoover himself, and I doubt if he would know!
 All we really KNOW is that the mystery of Amelia and her navigator goes on, and whether or not anything about the disappearance was classified or de-classified wouldn't seem to matter, would it? There is a theory now on the books that states Amelia somehow managed to land on the island of Nikumaroro in the middle of nowhere, and that's what we have to go on. Prove it or dis-prove it. That to me is the problem and the other mystery is why hasn't this been solved?
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 02, 2016, 09:13:37 AM
... the other mystery is why hasn't this been solved?

Define solved.
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Bob Smith on January 02, 2016, 11:00:42 AM
Also found in: Thesaurus, Legal, Acronyms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.



solve
   (sŏlv, sôlv)
v. solved, solv·ing, solves

v.tr.
 To find an answer to, explanation for, or way of dealing with (a problem, for example).

v.intr.
 To solve an equation: Insert the values of the constants and solve for x.


[Middle English solven, to loosen, from Latin solvere; see leu- in Indo-European roots.]


solv′er n.

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 02, 2016, 01:02:11 PM
Based on that definition the mystery of what happened to Amelia Earhart has been solved multiple times. The trouble is, the answers/explanations do not agree, so we must somehow decide which, if any, of the solutions is most likely correct.
Next question:  How do you do that?
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Bob Smith on January 02, 2016, 02:24:57 PM
More research! To the bottom of the sea!! Where do airplanes go when they fall off a cliff? We know, and I think it has been proven that: 1. aluminum is heavier than water. 2. aluminum disintegrates and oxidizes on land and in the ocean. 3. If Tighar or anybody else haven't found it by now on land, its a good bet it could be in the ocean, either in pieces or whole out in the open or under some Debri Field placed on top of it either inadvertenly or on purpose, say around 1945. 4. Is there more research to do? You betcha. 5. Has Amelia or her plane been found yet?  No! Does anyone care anymore? There's one of us born every minute!
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 02, 2016, 04:17:15 PM
1. aluminum is heavier than water.

True.

2. aluminum disintegrates and oxidizes on land and in the ocean.

Not true. It depends on the environment.

3. If Tighar or anybody else haven't found it by now on land, its a good bet it could be in the ocean, either in pieces or whole out in the open or under some Debris Field placed on top of it either inadvertenly or on purpose, say around 1945.

Aha! A new conspiracy theory!

4. Is there more research to do? You betcha.

Agreed.

 
5. Has Amelia or her plane been found yet?  No! Does anyone care anymore? There's one of us born every minute!

What will it take to declare her found and who will make the declaration?
[/quote]
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Bob Smith on January 02, 2016, 05:15:30 PM
I think the term "conspiracy theory" is mis-used and over-used. Just because a different theory is presented doesn't mean there is a conspiracy. Sometimes "new" or "different" is a good thing. And if there are open minds available, the new different theory can sometimes be easily associated with and infused into the older theories. There will always be new theories, and so. Some will be conspiracies, but when any theory is automatically treated as a conspiracy inspired theory simply because its different, a lot of possibilities will also be lost. It's just one thought to keep in mind: is there more under all that debri that we need to know about??
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Bob Smith on January 07, 2016, 07:28:07 PM
Let's not call this one a conspiracy theory, or even an alternative to the Niku Hypothesis, but rather a different area to seek relative information for furthering the examination of the Niku Hypothesis.?! And as a Bonus we could say there are places still left to investigate if we can drag ourselves away from the same old trampled areas that have shown little promise in solving the Big Question.
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 08, 2016, 07:24:06 AM
Let's not call this one a conspiracy theory, or even an alternative to the Niku Hypothesis, but rather a different area to seek relative information for furthering the examination of the Niku Hypothesis.?

We call it a conspiracy theory because it alleges a conspiracy.  We do not call Crashed & Sank a conspiracy because it does not allege a conspiracy.  Both Japanese Capture (with all of it's many permutations) and Crashed & Sank are alternatives to the Niku Hypothesis because both are incompatible with the Niku Hypothesis.
We are open to considering any theory that is supported by real evidence.  Neither Japanese Capture nor Crashed & Sank meets that criterion. 

And as a Bonus we could say there are places still left to investigate if we can drag ourselves away from the same old trampled areas that have shown little promise in solving the Big Question.

If you believe that the mountain of multi-faceted evidence TIGHAR has uncovered in 28 years of research and eleven expeditions amount to "old trampled areas that have shown little promise in solving the Big Question"  I think you're on the wrong Forum.
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Bob Smith on January 08, 2016, 09:14:11 AM
I don't believe in the Japanese Capture theory, Crashed and Sank will always be a possibility until no evidence is found to prove otherwise. I also believe there are areas in and around Niku that have not been explored adequately until TIGHAR or somebody else goes to greater depths. I'm not contradicting anybody, just go about it logically. There are a whole gaggle of people and organizations that either have or would like to visit the Phoenix Islands for a variety of reasons. If we start with the easiest methods of hunting for artifacts, wouldn't that be to scour the surface? Then go to more complicated and expensive methods, wouldn't that include the deeper exploration that has not been yet done? Which of these two methods would seem more likely to find artifacts that have not been trampled by tourists, fishermen, conservationists, etc?
Sometimes I believe you have to physically dig, push, or shove to find something, rather than researching it to death, (as long as it follows proper guidelines and regulations, of course.)
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on January 08, 2016, 11:13:58 AM
Sometimes I believe you have to physically dig, push, or shove to find something, rather than researching it to death, (as long as it follows proper guidelines and regulations, of course.)


TIGHAR has been doing that for roughly 27 years.


Here are 31 articles on TIGHAR's expeditions since 1989 (http://tighar.org/wiki/Category:Expeditions).


In the early reports, much was learned about guano. 

Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Bob Smith on January 08, 2016, 12:35:38 PM
Guano doesn't exist at the depths I'm interested in! Or does it? I would rather find an aluminum airplane landing gear, or gas tank!
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 08, 2016, 01:37:44 PM
Crashed and Sank will always be a possibility until no evidence is found to prove otherwise.

I think that sentence says the opposite of what you intended. Lose the "no."
In fact, evidence HAS been found to prove otherwise.  The post-loss signals, wherever they came from, could not have been sent from a floating/sinking Electra. Crashed & Sank has crashed and sunk.

I also believe there are areas in and around Niku that have not been explored adequately until TIGHAR or somebody else goes to greater depths.

That's certainly true.  That's why we're gearing up to go back with the Pisces subs in 2017.

I'm not contradicting anybody, just go about it logically. There are a whole gaggle of people and organizations that either have or would like to visit the Phoenix Islands for a variety of reasons. If we start with the easiest methods of hunting for artifacts, wouldn't that be to scour the surface?

Who are these whole gaggles of people and organizations who would want to spend months scouring every inch of the surface of that island, hacking and crawling through impenetrable bush in 100° heat?  And how do you propose to get them there and support them while they scour?

Then go to more complicated and expensive methods, wouldn't that include the deeper exploration that has not been yet done?

It's the deeper underwater exploration that needs doing.


Which of these two methods would seem more likely to find artifacts that have not been trampled by tourists, fishermen, conservationists, etc?

You have a very strange impression of Nikumaroro.


Sometimes I believe you have to physically dig, push, or shove to find something, rather than researching it to death, (as long as it follows proper guidelines and regulations, of course.)

Whereas I believe that the intelligent way to conduct a search is to research the subject to death so that you stand the best chance of looking in the right place rather than flailing about blindly. 

Ric
Title: Re: The AE POW theory in the news today....
Post by: Bob Smith on January 10, 2016, 12:21:19 PM
Today is a day of rest. Or should be. I'm going to rest. If Ms Earhart shows up let me know. Meanwhile, I'm going to do some more research about Baker Island and surrounds. It looks interesting!