TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Bob Smith on September 15, 2015, 06:33:45 PM
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As I peruse areas of the forum here and on others, it appears there may be more measures that we can persue on these subjects of external assistance, and more sources of mutual interests than may have been available in the past. I am struggling to explain what I envision, but feel there are other people and organisations that could be interested in helping TIGHAR if there was some sort of "carrot" that would also further their endeavors and investigations. Times can be tough, and money can be elusive, but with the right relationships and sharing of responsibilities, the results also can be shared. Does anybody know what I'm trying to say??
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Bob, yep! I have been promoting a JV for years.
Ted Campbell
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Ted, the idea doesn't appear to have taken hold, has it? Is there some way to make it more palatable? It would have to be a fairly broad approach wouldn't it? It just seems that with some factions wanting to wallow in their own guano, so to speak, there are others who are screaming to be involved and to be noticed, and have the right stuff to move forward. It's a little difficult to imagine all the intricacies of a joint venture from my standpoint, as most of what I do requires only a simple organized business arrangement. I think its the "sharing" that stops many. To share the rewards means some diminishing of the glory, but maybe at least there is more profound results overall!
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We have explored the possibility of a joint venture with the New England Aquarium but we've never been able to work out anything that makes sense. The recent tourist visit to Niku by Betchart Expeditions was a joint venture with TIGHAR and we may do something like that again.
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Let's not cheapen the whole idea of the research and professionalism that has gone into the Earheart Program. I don't think now or ever is it a good time to turn it into a leisure activity or pleasure cruise for tourists! People are laughing at TIGHAR. And with all due respect for those who produced results at the last minute with ingenious use of strings and cameras on NIKU VIII. But is this what we want to be known for?
Somehow TIGHAR has become attached with an asterisk that says:"only at Nikumaroro".
We need to open up and expand on the possibilities that include not only other theories, but also other methods of persuing them. I know TIGHAR has dealt with other groups and looked at other scenarios and come to conclude the results wouldn't be what was wanted, but don't stop! certainly we must have learned from the experiences: positive and negative results are both teachers.
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Let's not cheapen the whole idea of the research and professionalism that has gone into the Earheart Program. I don't think now or ever is it a good time to turn it into a leisure activity or pleasure cruise for tourists! People are laughing at TIGHAR.
We'll be discussing that issue at an upcoming board of directors meeting. I shouldn't express an opinion at this time but I would be interested to know how others feel about the issue.
And with all due respect for those who produced results at the last minute with ingenious use of strings and cameras on NIKU VIII. But is this what we want to be known for?
The difficulties with the ROV had nothing to do with the tourist cruise.
Somehow TIGHAR has become attached with an asterisk that says:"only at Nikumaroro".
We need to open up and expand on the possibilities that include not only other theories, but also other methods of persuing them.
I think you mean pursuing. We have carefully considered other theories and find nothing to support them.
I know TIGHAR has dealt with other groups and looked at other scenarios and come to conclude the results wouldn't be what was wanted, but don't stop! certainly we must have learned from the experiences: positive and negative results are both teachers.
I don't know what you mean when you say "the results wouldn't be what was wanted." The only thing we want is intelligent investigation that follows scientific principles. The results are whatever they are.
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You have my vote for NOT providing pleasure cruises to the island, at least until after the solving of the original presumption. Mixing these sort of activities confuses people as to what is the real intent. (Is this a research or cruise company we are running?) I doubt if cruises qualify for non profit activities!? And it dilutes the true meaning of "research".
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I know the cruise idea had nothing to do with the ROV failure, or on second thought, did it? Could more thought have gone in to providing contingencies if there had been more time to arrange for them?
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"results wouldn't be what was wanted" was probably poor wording on my part, sorry. I don't believe we can pre-suppose any results before they are researched thoroughly, but we do have an agenda here, no?
Then, too, we can investigate intelligently following scientific principles only if we follow scientific principles, such as keeping inexperienced, unprepared people off the island who might tend to litter, take off their shoes, or all other sorts of activities when its 110 deg in the shade and don't know how to deal with uncomfortable situations and still maintain scientific principals! My hat is off to you for putting up with some things not immediately obvious to others! (fill in the blanks) My suggestion remains, downward and onward...
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I know the cruise idea had nothing to do with the ROV failure, or on second thought, did it? Could more thought have gone in to providing contingencies if there had been more time to arrange for them?
The tourist cruise did not take up any of my time. Our Senior Archaeologist handled all the liaison with Betchart Expeditions and arranged for the TIGHAR staff that accompanied him on the cruise. I had very little to do with it.
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"results wouldn't be what was wanted" was probably poor wording on my part, sorry. I don't believe we can pre-suppose any results before they are researched thoroughly, but we do have an agenda here, no?
No. We are testing a hypothesis, not promoting an agenda. A lawyer in a courtroom has an agenda, to defend or prosecute. He/she can and should pick and choose the evidence that will best argue his/her case. We are not looking for victory, we're looking for truth. We have to evaluate ALL the evidence.
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"The tourist cruise did not take up any of my time. Our Senior Archaeologist handled all the liaison with Betchart Expeditions and arranged for the TIGHAR staff that accompanied him on the cruise. I had very little to do with it. "
But who's running this airline?
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Im going to have to vote "no" to the full-on "tourist attraction" thing, too. Set aside the fact that PIPA would probably never authorize it, tourists are dirty, messy, destructive creatures. Niku would wind up looking like Fort Lauderdale beach.
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"The tourist cruise did not take up any of my time. Our Senior Archaeologist handled all the liaison with Betchart Expeditions and arranged for the TIGHAR staff that accompanied him on the cruise. I had very little to do with it. "
But who's running this airline?
This has been a most bizarre conversation.
Bob: "TIGHAR should engage in joint ventures."
Ric: "We did engage in a joint venture."
Bob: "That is probably why the underwater search failed."
Ric: "No, the joint venture did not keep me from doing everything I could to make the search succeed."
Bob: "If you're in charge, you should make sure that the joint venture keeps you from giving the primary mission the attention it needs."
::)
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If tourists want to visit a extreme heat warning hot, humid, smelly, and hazardous island out literally in the middle of nowhere I say let them at it. The way the tour had a guide is respectable. It's possible a tourist could trip over 'the smoking gun' and looks like a visiting diver nearly did so in the past.
Fort Lauderdale Beach is an apples to oranges comparison as the weather is better and it's way more accessible and completely uncontrolled. It also doesn't have an abandoned ship falling/rusting apart all over the place on it.
I have suggested the Ham Radio operator on land post card would be a awesome fund raiser. Hopefully this can be carried out on the next visit. It's popularity last time was extreme.
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Yah, Marty. many things are getting bizarre! I didn't consider the " Betchart Expeditions" to be a joint venture. At least not in the proportion TIGHAR needs to be involved in. Who on the floatilla from flotsam had any credentials in the way of science or archaeology besides Dr. Tom? And I think Tom by himself could do better without the extra "help". I just don't think we should water down the special talents we do have in the organization. It does take a certain type of persons to initiate and carry out the expeditions to an island where only crabs and ferel pigs can survive for years, and special people to find the right data that is the most relative, and the right person to analyse the data, etc. Get more of those kind of people together and go for it!
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No. We are testing a hypothesis, not promoting an agenda. A lawyer in a courtroom has an agenda, to defend or prosecute. He/she can and should pick and choose the evidence that will best argue his/her case. We are not looking for victory, we're looking for truth. We have to evaluate ALL the evidence.
So it's not a Holy War? I'm confused.
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But who's running this airline?
Bob, I believe it's called delegation.
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Yah, Marty. many things are getting bizarre! I didn't consider the " Betchart Expeditions" to be a joint venture. At least not in the proportion TIGHAR needs to be involved in.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
Who on the floatilla from flotsam had any credentials in the way of science or archaeology besides Dr. Tom?
I don't have the complete list of passengers and their qualifications.
I think it was a mixed crew.
And I think Tom by himself could do better without the extra "help". I just don't think we should water down the special talents we do have in the organization.
I have the impression that Ric and Tom think otherwise.
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion.
It does take a certain type of persons to initiate and carry out the expeditions to an island where only crabs and ferel pigs can survive for years, and special people to find the right data that is the most relative, and the right person to analyse the data, etc. Get more of those kind of people together and go for it!
That is excellent advice, of course, though I fail to see how that differs from what TIGHAR has done in all of its expeditions (http://tighar.org/wiki/Expeditions).
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The clincher is in the last paragraph, Marty: "Get MORE of those kind of people", not the ones on the Tour Boat, and maybe from some OTHER organization who are experienced in a similar operation.
Why do I get so much argument about trying to do things in a manner seemingly more able to produce results? I'm beginning to wonder if anybody really wants results or don't care if TIGHAR flounders around playing with boobys and taking pictures of tortured crabs.
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"Tourists" would be bad. Research assistants could be good.
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The clincher is in the last paragraph, Marty: "Get MORE of those kind of people", not the ones on the Tour Boat, and maybe from some OTHER organization who are experienced in a similar operation.
I see.
"More is better."
Why do I get so much argument about trying to do things in a manner seemingly more able to produce results? I'm beginning to wonder if anybody really wants results or don't care if TIGHAR flounders around playing with boobys and taking pictures of tortured crabs.
It's the "seemingly more able" part where we part ways.
You are sold on your vision of what TIGHAR should do.
I'm sold on Ric's vision.
"If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride."
I think TIGHAR has gone all out to test the Niku hypothesis within the limits of the funding available for each expedition.
You say, "try for more."
I'm pretty sure TIGHAR has tried and will try to do more.
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And getting the research assistants to Niku would be problematic, i.e., expensiveasallhellandback. Getting anything to Niku is problematic.
TIGHAR has some tough decisions ahead in the months to come. Niku IX is just one of them.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189EC
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I know the "right way" sometimes costs more. And that TIGHAR is aware that money is at the root of many of its problems. I don't claim to know any cheap way or know of anyone who has a cheap way to approach a huge undertaking that this kind of investigation may require. That's exactly the point. Although a larger amount of money and resources may not solve everything or create totally desireable results, it appears that picking away with little pick axes will not accomplish what a stick of dynamite would do. (just an example; I'm not an advocate of using dynamite!) But do you think Amelia and her artifacts are going to wait for another 78 years to be found? There's got to be a better way!
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Although a larger amount of money and resources may not solve everything or create totally desireable results, it appears that picking away with little pick axes will not accomplish what a stick of dynamite would do.
So your suggestion is that we somehow raise a whole lot more money than we've been able to raise in the past. What novel idea. I can't imagine why I never thought of that.
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I'm not saying you haven't thought about it Ric. But maybe it will be necessary to accomplish the task. How much has been spent in the last 28 or so years total, and tell me again it couldn't be raised.. More dollars+ more time= more complete analysis and accomplishment.
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Ric,
Perhaps one way to approach future fund raising is first to take stock of what TIGHAR has to potentially offer a joint venturer. That is, what is the current or potential value of TIGHAR’s AE project assets – this may even mean spinning the AE project off as a separate enity.
For example:
ASSET VALUE
Current book sale revenue $
- Future sales of existing books if AE is found $
Future new book sales $
Movies rights $
Current artifacts value (maybe the tax deductable value of same) $
Research field training school classes $
Cruse ship scheduling/travel agent booking services re Niku $
Speaking engagements (telling the story of AE) $
Archeology motivational speaking engagements $
Historical Web Site creation and management technique training $
International Government negotiations re future historic event $
searches
Joint venture partner’s business advertisement value $
The above are examples that come to mind quickly – there may be many others that other forum members will contribute.
This approach would give TIGHAR a value/potential to offer a serious joint venture partner with like value assets that should be able to put the Niku hypothesis to the final test.
Ted Campbell
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What Ted said. What TIGHAR did in the past to raise funds (largely) worked, but Niku VIII proved we need to change the game plan if we want to have a hope of marshalling the resources for another go.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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Getting anything there is problematic yet the Fiji Princess was there at no direct cost to TIGHAR. The Betchart Expeditions could be an opportunity to do some limited low cost investigation. It may be that a portion of the expedition is tourist focused and another portion led by TIGHAR, with whatever experienced members who volunteered and/or were added to the expedition at TIGHAR expense. Both groups sharing the same boat to get there.
Even if there were a small group added at TIGHAR’s expense, the value of most of the trip cost taken care of by others could be an opportunity.
The possible scope depends on what targets might be investigated and who is doing it. I know this is all theory but it is possible to deploy small ROVs from a skiff that could reach the Debris Field at 200’
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Greg, I still think the cruise line idea is a bad one. The connotations of providing a leisure, vacation, or cruise activity sets up the wrong mind set in the cruisers as well as the viewers. no matter what the cost. It just wouldn't be worth it in the long or short run. It's a neat idea for later when all the work has been done. If all TIGHAR wants to do is start a cruise line, then have at it! but don't mingle it with serious research and investigation. On the other hand if we could find some organization needing experimentation or trial experience with some new kind of robot, or submarine or other equipment, that's another story. Small ROV's don't do it either, remember? Been there, done that! and big fish eat them don't they? Go for the gold! and before we all cave from old age!
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There are provisions that allow a non profit to sell stock. Consider offering 250,000 shares at $250 to pay for an expedition.
Limit the offer to persons in the United States, as well as the UK, Guam, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
Shares to be purchased online with credit or debit cards, and also via mail.
Have means for purchasers to receive delivery of certificates.
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Gentlemen, Money, money, money. True enough, it's very important. However, if a future
expedition does not include an "in craft" pilot/s with the absolute ability to illuminate, film, tightly maneuver, grasp and remove an item/items for surface delivery, it's a waste of time. (And none of us are getting any younger.) Better to plan and build for another
3 - 4 years before launching the next attempt and then, ONLY with the proper equipment
and all necessary backups. Hopefully, the ravages of weather and water (over time) has
not rendered one more try a useless venture.
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Right on, Don. The only way to go!
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Greg, I still think the cruise line idea is a bad one. The connotations of providing a leisure, vacation, or cruise activity sets up the wrong mind set in the cruisers as well as the viewers. no matter what the cost.
Bob,
I'm not suggesting TIGHAR get in the cruise line business or provide leisure and cruise activities. I'm suggesting that there might be an advantage in getting a ride on a boat that might already be going there and doing whatever you can do. Be it taking additional soil samples on land, using small ROVs or some other research that does not require a sub or ROV.
You don't have to charter a plane to get to the Fiji or Hawaii ports. You can save money by getting a ticket on a plane already going there. Because other people are on the plane vacationing does not mean you are on a vacation. I'm sure some might think its a leisure deal if TIGHAR were to have a group on board a cruise ship going there. But they are probably the same people who claim it's "vacation" every time TIGHAR goes there. I also see nothing wrong with providing on board lectures to help Betchart sell tickets and educate at the same time.
ROVs have been proven to be useful tools in underwater research. Because there were problems with some does not mean you have to abandon them.
The topic is funding ideas and getting assistance. I see this as one small idea. I would love to see subs used too. It is probably the best way to investigate a larger area but it requires a lot of money. In my opinion the Debris Field is more of a "target", so using subs is not the only option.
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We should use all the "tools" we can to help in achieving the most efficient and effective endeavor. There are also things we should not do because of the negative effects on not only the actual activities during the endeavor, but also the more subtle negative effects from the whole world's perception of TIGHAR's intentions. You may get a lot more people interested in the project, but not all of them are going to be what TIGHAR will benefit from. Sort of like when hiring new employees, do you just put an ad in the paper and accept all who enter the doors en mass, or do you interview each for the specific job being offered? You gotta have some control!
As for the ROV's, they might be useful in up close and personal, if they canbe operated precisely and not be thrown around by the currents. That hasn't been accomplished to the satisfaction of my views except in some older videos, perhaps. But what good are the best ROV's if there is no provision for handling and testing?
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There are provisions that allow a non profit to sell stock. Consider offering 250,000 shares at $250 to pay for an expedition.
That's an interesting idea, Bill, and one TIGHAR's directors may want to pursue; once the financial house is back in good order, of course.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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You have my vote for NOT providing pleasure cruises to the island, at least until after the solving of the original presumption. Mixing these sort of activities confuses people as to what is the real intent. (Is this a research or cruise company we are running?) I doubt if cruises qualify for non profit activities!? And it dilutes the true meaning of "research".
TIGHAR's tax statements identify it as a 501(c)(3), a steward of a public interest.
TIGHAR's public interest is promoting responsible aviation archaeology.
Solving the mystery of Amelia Earhart's disappearance would do this.
Educating the public about responsible aviation archaeology would do this.
The two are not incompatible. It would be great if both can be done.
The Betchart cruise was very educational.
We learned much. We made mistakes. We learned we had much to learn.
We were tourists but we were also students.
There was high spirit, and even higher seas. We respected the island and one another.
We observed all rules laid out for us by the two supervising archaeologists, and by officers of our ship.
All this seems to me to be consistent with TIGHAR's history, and befits its legal status as a tax-exempt organization on account of its role in educating members and subsets of members, but above all the public.
My two cents.
Joe Cerniglia
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I respect your view from a participant point of view, Joe, and you may have a good point. And many of us are envious of those who were able to go on the journey. But as an observer, I wasn't impressed with the feeling that most or at least some of the participants on the cruise were there mainly for a "cruise" and wanted to just get away for a great time. The fact that they were allowed to also experience a side trip to a deserted island where Amelia Earheart supposedly landed her famous aircraft, must have been a great draw for the cruise company. But they have similar activities like this on every cruise, don't they? People get tired of cruising on a boat, and need a little something extra to make the whole experience attractive. I don't doubt that many things were learned and the supervisors were great. I don't dispute that, but the question is the same: Does TIGHAR want be known and respected as a research company specializing in downed aircraft, or do they want to be known as "That Cruise Company" that took us to that island in the middle of somewhere in the Pacific Ocean. I feel the answer is coming soon. Got my fingers crossed!
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Find the plane then set up cruises!
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Although I'm not enthusiastic about a commercial joint venture, I would think there could be some mutual benefits from an educational partnership. For example, a beneficial relationship--joint venture, if you will--with the University of Hawaii. A graduate program in oceanography, marine science, marine geology or some such could prove beneficial to both the educational institution, the students, and TIGHAR. Archeological and marine study opportunies would abound for the students; prestige and mutual support would benefit TIGHAR. And the supporting educational institution would not need, nor expect, a profit-sharing arrangement.
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That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! Ricker. http://tighar.org/smf/Smileys/no_animation/grin.gif
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Does TIGHAR want be known and respected as a research company specializing in downed aircraft, or do they want to be known as "That Cruise Company" that took us to that island in the middle of somewhere in the Pacific Ocean. I feel the answer is coming soon. Got my fingers crossed!
The cruise company was Betchart Expeditions (http://betchartexpeditions.com/about.htm).
TIGHAR provided some planning and physical support.
An implacable minority once decried the wealthy from TIGHAR "going Indiana Jones-style." Now the yokels from Betchart overrun the island in cheap hats and sunglasses. Neither event happened.
Without a doubt the cruises will be no more, and they'll go back to complaining about Indiana Jones.
TIGHAR is a promoter of responsible aviation archaeology.
It has shown itself willing to take novel approaches if only they will get people to appreciate responsible aviation archaeology.
The "cruise" was one approach.
I think it was an effective one; there are others that might also be effective. Ricker's ideas are well-considered and thoughtful, as always.
I'm happy and grateful I got to see the island.
I recommend the experience to others for perspective on the Nikumaroro hypothesis and on responsible aviation archaeology.
Joe Cerniglia
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Yes, Betchart Expeditions was the cruise company, and they went to the island where TIGHAR just happened to be at the same time, led by the knowledgeable people that we know. Its the Image, Joe, the image that TIGHAR encouraged the cruise and wanted them there, by all means so they could find more artifacts and become a part of history! Did they, or didn't they? Had they all been qualified scientists and investigators of historical aircraft with the same reasons for being on the island as TIGHAR, it would have been a totally different image. I think with the exception of yourself and a few others, such was not the case.
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OK, I'll bite. How much, if any, money did TIGHAR receive for being involved in the Niku adventure cruise?
Or, how much, if any, money did TIGHAR have to spend supporting the Niku Adventure cruise activities?
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR no. 2189 EC
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OK, I'll bite. How much, if any, money did TIGHAR receive for being involved in the Niku adventure cruise?
Or, how much, if any, money did TIGHAR have to spend supporting the Niku Adventure cruise activities?
Per TIGHAR's contract with Betchart, TIGHAR received $100 for each paying participant in the Betchart cruise who was a TIGHAR member at the time of the cruise. There were 16 passengers who fit that description and TIGHAR received $1,600.
We devoted the final day of the TIGHAR expedition to shepherding the tourists. Each day of the expedition cost TIGHAR $11,000.
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Yes, Betchart Expeditions was the cruise company, and they went to the island where TIGHAR just happened to be at the same time, led by the knowledgeable people that we know.
No. The Betchart cruise was careful led planned to overlap part of the TIGHAR expedition.
Its the Image, Joe, the image that TIGHAR encouraged the cruise and wanted them there, by all means so they could find more artifacts and become a part of history! Did they, or didn't they?
There is a difference of opinion about that among the members of the TIGHAR board.
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Thanks for the prompt response, Ric, that ought to answer some of the questions that people were dancing around but for some reason not asking.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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I'm gonna go off on the reef edge with this one but think it has alot of potential. It possesses alot of family time with also community effort and support and big corporations or big businesses like this as a whole. Gives all of those good pr per say and everyone comes out ahead. As many of you know, Ric and several TIGHAR members visited Newton, Kansas to see a replica of the Lockheed Electra. From what I have gathered it has been quite the task. It would be nice if that actual Lockheed Electra can be displayed for a short spell, before heading back overseas. Kinda of like a learning tool or museum. I also, think that by using all the aviation companies in Wichita...it would be neat to have say two weeks or three days on a weekend to have a festival to commemorate flight as a whole, and at the same time use Amelia and Tighar as the topic of subject. It would be neat to have everyone involved to learn alot about not only the Lockheed Electra but flight and airplanes as a whole. It will bring out an interest of flight to young teenagers abroad. Anyway, at the same time companies would give monetary support in return of good pr. Anyway, the good city of Wichita always thrives off of stuff last night!
1. Setup a centralized location to have an event. Setup a fee for entrance into an event or a multi-day pass.
2. Make it fun for young and old and those questioning minds!
3. Invite those in the community to participate with food and vending and etc.
4. Ric could have a workshop or workshops to tell the Amelia story in his eyes.
5. In the long run, corporations can give substantial sums of money as a monetary donation, and at the same time get a
good tax write off.
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Monty, not so sure what you mean by "dancing". I see no dancing. Dancing is for happy times. In fact I sense a bit of sadness in the air.
By the way have you heard of the Phoenix? Ironic, maybe, that the islands including Nikumoro (Gardner) were included in the Phoenix Island Group. I believe in the Phoenix, she was a great bird. And this story is not over yet.
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That, Randy, sounds like an interesting idea. I hope it can be explored and developed further!
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Randy - As someone who lives in Wichita I'm aware that the aircraft companies here are less inclined to support aircraft related public events since the downturn in the economy. There is an annual aircraft theme event that Tighar or others could set up a display or booth at called the Wichita Flight Festival. Basically a three-day weekend airshow with static displays and the typical barnstorming events. Some years it is combined with an open house at McConnell air force base. However, last year and this year there hasn't been a Wichita Flight Festival event and I'm not sure of the reasons why.
If exposure is the goal, then Oshkosh would have the largest crowds.
If only Tighar could get funding from a big sponsor, like Koch Industries or the Koch brothers here in Wichita :D
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Yes, Betchart Expeditions was the cruise company, and they went to the island where TIGHAR just happened to be at the same time, led by the knowledgeable people that we know. Its the Image, Joe, the image that TIGHAR encouraged the cruise and wanted them there, by all means so they could find more artifacts and become a part of history! Did they, or didn't they? Had they all been qualified scientists and investigators of historical aircraft with the same reasons for being on the island as TIGHAR, it would have been a totally different image. I think with the exception of yourself and a few others, such was not the case.
I appreciate the sincerity you bring to the discussion.
I know there are debates and uncertainty. I don't know much about the politics or the psychology of the motivations. Maybe others can address.
I know if you go to another 501(c)(3) and ask to participate directly in the research, they send you a link to a webcam so you can watch the qualified people participate directly in the research.
If you ask TIGHAR you get a chance to go, and do.
You'll give up 3 weeks, the fare is steep, but if you have a surpassing interest to go and do, there is a chance that, eventually, you can.
There will always be an open runway for those who leave the impression as, or actually are, the best and the brightest.
But one can't always predict the return address on the next Big Idea.
Consider Jim McClure (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Highlights101_120/highlights108page2.html). In 2000, he first proposed Betty Klenck might have heard "Norwich City" on her radio. He proposed this, out of the blue, on the Forum.
Or how about Peter McQuarrie. (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/13_1/tarawa.html) He stumbled on the Bones Papers while doing research - on World War II.
The "image," as one who was there, was of experienced people helping far less experienced people, like me, appreciate what the organization is all about.
These are the people who needed it most.
Having a few best and brightest there was helpful to those of us who did.
I think there were more than enough best and brightest on hand to make a desirable team.
If this impeded the mission, that will certainly need to be addressed big time, but in my book it was one of TIGHAR's finest hours.
Joe Cerniglia
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If this impeded the mission ...
I am not involved in planning expeditions.
I had no hand in Niku VIII in particular.
Just reasoning from what I've read here in the Forum, it seems to me that the Nai'a was filled to capacity.
If there hadn't been a second ship, there probably wouldn't have been much archaeology done by the Nai'a crew.
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Thanks Marty, but what archaeology are you talking about? Maybe the second ship should have brought the sub!
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Thanks Marty, but what archaeology are you talking about? Maybe the second ship should have brought the sub!
The Nai'a had all of the people and technology that TIGHAR could afford to bring.
That is all that would have sailed this year.
The cruise ship augmented what TIGHAR was doing.
It did not subtract anything.
That's how it seems to me.
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Yes, Betchart Expeditions was the cruise company, and they went to the island where TIGHAR just happened to be at the same time, led by the knowledgeable people that we know.
No. The Betchart cruise was careful led planned to overlap part of the TIGHAR expedition.
I find this a curious statement. The Betchart tour was first in the works in 2013. The earliest public discussion I could find of it was this January 2014 thread:
https://tighar.org/smf/index.php?topic=1413.0
The dates had been finalized by March, according to this post on Dr. King's site:
http://ameliaearhartarchaeology.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/this-years-expedition-next-years-visit.html
Yet Niku VIII was supposed to happen in September/October of 2014 according to this April posting on the TIGHAR facebook site:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10151988917450658&id=224536440657
THE PUSH IS ON
The Niku VIII expedition, scheduled for Sept/Oct of this year, is our best shot to conclusively solving the Earhart mystery. The plan is in place, the subs are ready to go, the team has been selected. Now we must raise the money. We need your help to fund the mass-marketing campaign that will make that possible. Please go to the link below and donate to TIGHAR's 1937 Fund.
The expedition was only pushed to 2015 after initial fundraising failed to meet the September 1 deadline to charter the HURL submarines. The first indication I can find of the rescheduled June-July dates for Niku VIII was October 2014:
https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1539.msg34162.html#msg34162
These new dates were supposed to be dictated by when the Nai'a was available for charter.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku8/niku8prelim/niku8prelimreport.html
The expedition vessel was booked for a particular time period – June 8 to July 1 – and had other charters booked for the rest of the year.
Something seems off if the Betchart tour was planned to overlap Niku VIII, yet Niku VIII's dates weren't known until more than half a year after the Betchart expedition dates had already been settled. Frazzled memories?
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Something seems off if the Betchart tour was planned to overlap Niku VIII, yet Niku VIII's dates weren't known until more than half a year after the Betchart expedition dates had already been settled. Frazzled memories?
The Betchart dates were set in March 2014. The rescheduled Niku VIII dates were dictated by Nai'a availability which was not known until October 2014. There was, by coincidence, a one day overlap at the very end of Niku VIII. Betchart later amended their itinerary so that there would be a two day overlap but, in the end, rough seas delayed their arrival and there was effectively only a one day overlap.
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The cruise ship augmented what TIGHAR was doing.
I would disagree from the standpoint of money. While the cruise ship did augment the ground personnel, and the cruise did contribute a very small amount of cash to Niku VIII, it ended up costing TIGHAR more than $9,000. Armchair quarterbacking can endlessly debate what could have gone along on Niku VIII for that amount, but I suspect it might have been something pretty important.
Or so it seems to me.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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Armchair quarterbacking can endlessly debate what could have gone along on Niku VIII for that amount, but I suspect it might have been something pretty important.
Or so it seems to me.
I take the opposite view.
Your assumption is that Niku VIII could have saved $11,000 if it had not been for the cruise.
My assumption is that Niku VIII would have stayed for exactly the same length of time without the cruise.
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Armchair quarterbacking can endlessly debate what could have gone along on Niku VIII for that amount, but I suspect it might have been something pretty important.
That's now how it works. It's not like we had $9,000 to spend and chose to spend it on Betchart. We paid for a 28 day charter. We ended up spending one of those days shepherding Betchart.
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For ideas on new equipment for the next expedition, go to decommissioned subs, or personal subs, or similar on your friendly computer browser.
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I'm gonna go off on the reef edge with this one but think it has alot of potential. It possesses alot of family time with also community effort and support and big corporations or big businesses like this as a whole. Gives all of those good pr per say and everyone comes out ahead. As many of you know, Ric and several TIGHAR members visited Newton, Kansas to see a replica of the Lockheed Electra. From what I have gathered it has been quite the task. It would be nice if that actual Lockheed Electra can be displayed for a short spell, before heading back overseas. Kinda of like a learning tool or museum. I also, think that by using all the aviation companies in Wichita...it would be neat to have say two weeks or three days on a weekend to have a festival to commemorate flight as a whole, and at the same time use Amelia and Tighar as the topic of subject. It would be neat to have everyone involved to learn alot about not only the Lockheed Electra but flight and airplanes as a whole. It will bring out an interest of flight to young teenagers abroad. Anyway, at the same time companies would give monetary support in return of good pr. Anyway, the good city of Wichita always thrives off of stuff last night!
1. Setup a centralized location to have an event. Setup a fee for entrance into an event or a multi-day pass.
2. Make it fun for young and old and those questioning minds!
3. Invite those in the community to participate with food and vending and etc.
4. Ric could have a workshop or workshops to tell the Amelia story in his eyes.
5. In the long run, corporations can give substantial sums of money as a monetary donation, and at the same time get a
good tax write off.
Just plan it with a special time. Anniversary or whatever. Amelia's birthday etc.
Newton is 15 mi north of Wichita. Spirt across from mcconnel is very close to the south Wichita city limits. Just fyi. I lived at the end of the runway for awhile.