TIGHAR
Project Midnight Ghost => General Discussion => Topic started by: Monty Fowler on July 08, 2015, 12:06:42 PM
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Does TIGHAR still have the stick and/or cane fragments that were found in Maine in 1987? Perhaps some of the analytical techniques now available would help pinpoint its origin.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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I'm hope that this artifact will be mentioned in the Project Midnight Ghost update scheduled for September?
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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Do we have a mailing date for the September newsletter?
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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Will there be a photo of this artifact in the Project Midnight Ghost update?
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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I'm also hoping there will be a discussion of what may/may not be learned by applying more updated forensic techniques to the artifacts TIGHAR did discover in its numerous Maine woods expeditions. Forensic science has made astonishing advances in just the last decade.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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Suffice it to say, I was very, no, extremely disappointed by the "update" to TIGHAR's search for the White Bird that appeared in the November 2015 TIGHAR Tracks. There was nothing in there that had not previously been discussed in this forum, and saying "We are currently investigating some new possibilities" without giving any specifics is frankly insulting to the membership.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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Suffice it to say, I was very, no, extremely disappointed by the "update" to TIGHAR's search for the White Bird that appeared in the November 2015 TIGHAR Tracks.
The article in TIGHAR Tracks is an inadvertent re-print of a nearly identical article we ran in the October 2011 issue. I came across it on my hard drive and honestly didn't remember that we had already published it, but even if I had I might have used it anyway. i certainly would have included a notation that it originally appeared in an earlier issue.
There was nothing in there that had not previously been discussed in this forum, and saying "We are currently investigating some new possibilities" without giving any specifics is frankly insulting to the membership.
I don't write TIGHAR Tracks for the Forum. We have many new TIGHAR members since 2011 and I want to re-acquaint them with Project Midnight Ghost. We really are looking into some new technologies that might be useful but I don't have anything to report yet.
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I'm also hoping there will be a discussion of what may/may not be learned by applying more updated forensic techniques to the artifacts TIGHAR did discover in its numerous Maine woods expeditions. Forensic science has made astonishing advances in just the last decade.
Nothing we found in Maine is worth spending time or money on. The evidence in Newfoundland is far stronger but the only artifact we recovered is not in our possession. By law we had to leave it with the Newfoundland authorities.
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What was recovered in Newfoundland?
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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What was recovered in Newfoundland?
See "A Piece of the Plane in the Pond (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/1993Vol_9/0901.pdf)" TIGHAR Tracks Vol. 9 Number 1, January 15, 1993, page 6
Attached are better photos. I found the artifact buried in mud just off the tip of the rocky little island in the Gull Pond about where the guy in the wetsuit is in the photo. That's me in the plaid shirt.
The top photos were taken right after we brought the thing ashore, still wet. There was an oily residue on the interior surface that came off on my hands. The second picture, taken after the artifact was dry, shows the paint on the exterior surface. It was originally grayish blue in color. The steel parts of the landing gear of l'Oiseau Blanc now on display at the Musee de l'Air are painted grayish blue. I suspect the artifact may have been part of an oil sump.
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Many thanks for posting the info. As I said earlier, would modern forensic techniques on this artifact yield any new information? To wit, oily residue composition, paint country of origin, metal composition and country of origin, etc.?
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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As I said earlier, would modern forensic techniques on this artifact yield any new information?
Maybe, but we don't have the artifact and I have no idea where it is now. By law, we had to turn it over to the Newfoundland authorities. That was over 20 years ago.
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I realize that more than 20 years has passed, but I'm suggesting that TIGHAR initiate steps to see where the artifact is. Hopefully it still exists.
Before we devote any effort to new technology or whatever, I think it would be a good idea to make the best possible use of what we already have.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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I realize that more than 20 years has passed, but I'm suggesting that TIGHAR initiate steps to see where the artifact is. Hopefully it still exists.
Before we devote any effort to new technology or whatever, I think it would be a good idea to make the best possible use of what we already have.
Think about it for a moment. Let's say we spent the time, effort, and money to track down the artifact, and let's say we were somehow successful in convincing the provincial authorities to release it to us for research (which they were not willing to do 20 years ago). And let's say that after spending the time, effort, and money on forensic testing we were able to determine that there is something about the artifact that is consistent with it being from a 1927 French airplane, what would we do then? We would look for technology that would help us search for the rest of the airplane.
And what if, after all that, something we learned about the artifact disqualified it as being from a 1927 French airplane? What we do then? The hypothesis that the "plane in the pond" was the White Bird does not depend on the artifact being from the aircraft. We would look for technology that would help us search the area around the pond for the airplane.
When deciding what to spend time, effort, and money on, I try to focus on research, the outcome of which, would cause us to do something different than what we already plan to do.
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A post elsewhere hinted that further White Bird news and a possible expedition are on the horizon. As TIGHAR's oldest project, a new expedition is a fitting way to celebrate TIGHAR's 30th anniversary. Since I haven't seen any public announcements, can we assume planning is underway? Can you share any insights?
Has new information been uncovered that refines the search area or points to a new one?
What kind of team is required to conduct the seach and what skills or expertise are needed? Has the effort to identify and select team members begun?
Is any approval or cooperation of a government agency needed? Based on those approvals, is there any anticipated timeframe when the expedition will occur, how long it will last, and how much funding needs to be raised?
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A post elsewhere hinted that further White Bird news and a possible expedition are on the horizon. As TIGHAR's oldest project, a new expedition is a fitting way to celebrate TIGHAR's 30th anniversary. Since I haven't seen any public announcements, can we assume planning is underway? Can you share any insights?
I'll try to quickly review where we are with that project.
Has new information been uncovered that refines the search area or points to a new one?
No new information. Just some new thoughts.
What kind of team is required to conduct the search and what skills or expertise are needed? Has the effort to identify and select team members begun?
We're not there yet. Here's the hypothesis we'd like to test:
On the morning of May 9, 1927, as the White Bird flew southwestward over the Cape Shore arm of Newfoundland's Avalon Peninsula, the aircraft's coolant system ruptured forcing an emergency landing on or near a small lake known locally as The Gull Pond (shown on maps as Goose Pond). The landing was not successful and the aircraft was destroyed. The crew was probably killed on impact or in a post-crash fire. Months or possibly years later, the wreck was discovered by James Joseph (Jim Joe) Doyle of Gooseberry Cove, a small village on the western side of the Cape Shore about eight miles from the pond.
Doyle's sole interest in the wreck was as a source of useful materials (aluminum sheet and steel wire/cable). There was more useful material than he could carry home at one time so he stockpiled salvaged components on a small rocky island in the southern end of the pond. This was probably accomplished in the winter using a horse and sled to move wreckage over the ice from the crash site to the stash site on the island. Local people typically only went "back in the country" during the summer months to hunt grouse, so storing his stash on the island protected it from being taken by others. Local people did, however, notice the debris on the island and recognized it as airplane wreckage - thus was born the legend of "the plane in the pond."
Over the years, Doyle retrieved and used much of the material. Eventually all of the debris was removed from the island except for one fragment buried in the mud which we found.
Logically, all that now remains is the rusted hulk of the 12-cylinder Lorraine-Dietrch engine.
Logically, the engine is at the original crash site, it being too heavy for Doyle to move and of no value as salvage.
Logically, the crash site and engine are within a distance from the island in the pond that
Doyle could traverse with a horse and sled.
We have searched the southern end of the pond and the immediately surrounding area. Nothing there.
It is impractical to physically search the rest of the pond and the surrounding muskeg with boots on the ground. The area is only accessible on foot (five mostly vertical miles from the nearest road) or helicopter. What we need is some kind of remote sensing technology that can image an anomalous mass of metal from the air even if it's buried in silt on the bottom of a pond. So far I've looked into LIDAR and Synthetic Aperture Radar. Neither seem ideal.
Is any approval or cooperation of a government agency needed?
Any archaeological searching on the ground requires the participation of an approved Newfoundland archaeologist and a provincial permit.
Based on those approvals, is there any anticipated timeframe when the expedition will occur, how long it will last, and how much funding needs to be raised?
The first step is to identify the right technology, figure out how much it will cost to deploy it, raise the money, do the survey, and then we'll know if we have targets to go after with a ground team.
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Very interesting! So no one in the area had any real interest in who the crash might involve?
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Ric, if I may ask, how did you come up with the hypothesis of the crash? The reason I ask is that the AE threads have a TREMENDOUS amount of excellent information about all the theories and findings of your research. Knowing full well you've got your hands pretty full with the AE stuff, would it be possible at some point to put together a good synopsis of what's been found and theorized about the White Bird? No problem if you can't do it now, I'm (hopefully) patient!
Never mind, you did it while I was gone. Thanks!
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How about a magnetometer suspended below a helicopter so as to make slow passes over the area of interest?
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Very interesting! So no one in the area had any real interest in who the crash might involve?
It's unlikely that anyone living in the area in 1927 had any knowledge of the transatlantic flight attempts. The area was, and still is, rural and remote. The people were, and still are, working class Irish Catholic, intensely insular, and suspicious of outsiders.
In later years, Doyle's adopted son Patrick "Patsy" Judge became very curious about the identity of the plane. Attached is a chronology of events relating to The Gull Pond.
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Ric, if I may ask, how did you come up with the hypothesis of the crash? This is the first I've seen of it.
Short version:
A string of witnesses trace the progress of the aircraft southwestward across the Avalon Peninsula. The last witness in the string reported seeing an aircraft "on fire trailing white smoke" over the Cape Shore. Burning aircraft trail black smoke. What the witness probably saw was steam from a ruptured coolant system. The engine of the White Bird was cooled with glycol that ran through pipes from the engine to radiators in the wing roots. A failed coolant pipe would leave a cloud of white steam. The engine would quickly overheat and seize. The White Bird was designed to land on water but it had to be calm water. The ponds on the high muskeg would be a natural choice.
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How about a magnetometer suspended below a helicopter so as to make slow passes over the area of interest?
The crankshaft of the engine should provide a decent magnetic return but unfortunately the area is dotted with "glacial erratics," large rocks that also have a strong magnetic signature. A magnetometer survey would turn up hundreds of false positives.
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Excellent! Just what I was looking for. Do you have any maps or photos of that area? Would the wreckage have been near land? How deep is the water where you suspect it may be?
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Do you have any maps or photos of that area?
Attached.
Would the wreckage have been near land?
You tell me.
How deep is the water where you suspect it may be?
The pond is relatively shallow - about ten feet in the part we've searched - but much of the bottom is covered in six or seven feet of silt about the consistency of oatmeal.
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ric how come the people who found wreckage don't mention finding one of nungessers gold and silver prosthetics
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ric how come the people who found wreckage don't mention finding one of nungessers gold and silver prosthetics
Prosthetics would be in Nungesser's body. Nungesser's body would be at the crash site. Whoever salvaged useful debris from the crash site was not concerned with human remains. If there was a fire the bodies might not even be recognizable.
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dont forget the priest story where father charles mccarthy found a strip attached to a tightening device
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Is that little island in the picture the small, rocky island he stockpiled the salvage on?
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Is that little island in the picture the small, rocky island he stockpiled the salvage on?
Yes.
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Ric,
Would you annotate one of the pictures with the supposed direction of flight?
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Would you annotate one of the pictures with the supposed direction of flight?
See below. The circles represent one and two miles centered on the pond.
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If it crashed in the water, I find it difficult to believe there wouldn't be a reasonable amount of debris left, even if it was partially salvaged. The problem would obviously be locating any of that debris in six feet of silt (under ten feet of water). Especially without knowing exactly where to look. Does the "salvage specialist's" farmstead still exist fairly intact? If so, has anyone checked there to see if any of the pieces of White Bird might still exist as "repairs" to something else?
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Does the "salvage specialist's" farmstead still exist fairly intact? If so, has anyone checked there to see if any of the pieces of White Bird might still exist as "repairs" to something else?
Doyle's house is gone. His adopted son Patsy Judge reportedly had a few pieces of the plane but his cabin burned after his death. We excavated the site and found some melted lumps of metal but nothing identifiable.
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Sounds like you've been pretty thorough (as usual) looking for any and all routes to an answer. Nothing's ever easy, is it?!
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Nothing's ever easy, is it?!
I noticed.
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I'll bet! Unfortunately, I have no skills that would be useful in this search, other that being something of a cheerleader.
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I realize that more than 20 years has passed, but I'm suggesting that TIGHAR initiate steps to see where the artifact is. Hopefully it still exists.
Before we devote any effort to new technology or whatever, I think it would be a good idea to make the best possible use of what we already have.
Think about it for a moment. Let's say we spent the time, effort, and money to track down the artifact, and let's say we were somehow successful in convincing the provincial authorities to release it to us for research (which they were not willing to do 20 years ago). And let's say that after spending the time, effort, and money on forensic testing we were able to determine that there is something about the artifact that is consistent with it being from a 1927 French airplane, what would we do then? We would look for technology that would help us search for the rest of the airplane.
Ummmm, I have thought about it. Twenty years have past. Might be new people with a new attitude in charge up there. As I see it, right now the Plane in the Pond theory is a roll of the dice. TIGHAR may have found a piece of the White Bird. If we are allowed to do some testing and it turns out positive, that will greatly strengthen TIGHAR's case for raising more money for another search. If the testing turns out negative or ambiguous, we really haven't lost anything, either. We might well have the proverbial bird in the hand.
Or so it seems to me.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189
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If we are allowed to do some testing and it turns out positive, that will greatly strengthen TIGHAR's case for raising more money for another search.
Positive for what? What would you test? We already know that the paint is the right color and the right chemical composition but it's generic paint. Nothing unique to the White Bird.
If the testing turns out negative or ambiguous, we really haven't lost anything, either.
Just months of time. I've learned over the years that deciding what to spend time on is the biggest factor in any investigation. It's all about asking the right questions.
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Do you have any photos of the witnesses who saw airplane wreckage at gull pond
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Do you have any photos of the witnesses who saw airplane wreckage at gull pond
Yes. Some. Why?
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I want to see them
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This photo is Patrick "Patsy" Judge, adopted son of James Joseph "Jim Joe" Doyle whom we suspect found the wreck and moved salvageable pieces of the plane to the island in the the Gull Pond.
In 1948, Patsy Judge wrote a letter to a local businessman C. Noonan (no relation to Fred Noonan) about airplane wreckage he had seen. Noonan passed the information to the Newfoundland Civil Aviation Division which responded with the attached letter.
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Got any others
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We already know that the paint is the right color and the right chemical composition but it's generic paint. Nothing unique to the White Bird.
No arguments about the color, you can make a case that that might have come from the White Bird, but I have not seen anything on the chemical composition. Was any kind of country-of-origin analysis done, or whether the paint was sprayed on vs. brushed on, etc.?
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 E
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Got any others
This is Patrick McGrath when we interviewed him in 1992. He was 69 at that time. He claimed to have seen airplane wreckage on the island in Gull Pond in 1940. He was also with Hubert McGrath and Father McCarthy when they recovered an artifact on or near the island in 1971.
I don't have photos of any of the other people who claimed to have seen pieces of "the plane in the pond."
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I have not seen anything on the chemical composition. Was any kind of country-of-origin analysis done, or whether the paint was sprayed on vs. brushed on, etc.?
I came across the chemical composition info the other day while looking for something else and, of course, now can't find it. The bulk of the work on Project Midnight Ghost was done between 1984 and 1995 BDA (Before Digital Age) so most of it is paper files - three filing cabinets full of paper files.I'll keep looking as time permits.
As I recall, we asked about country of origin and the answer was "paint is paint." I don't remember any discussion of brush versus spray. We don't know how the paint was applied to the aircraft anyway so knowing wouldn't help.
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Would an examination of the surviving landing gear provide some clues?
As of 2008, the landing gear is the only confirmed part of the biplane remaining, and is on display at the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace (French Air and Space Museum), in Le Bourget airport in Paris, the location from which L'Oiseau Blanc took off.
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Would an examination of the surviving landing gear provide some clues?
As of 2008, the landing gear is the only confirmed part of the biplane remaining, and is on display at the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace (French Air and Space Museum), in Le Bourget airport in Paris, the location from which L'Oiseau Blanc took off.
Been there. Done that.
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Here's what I think the Avro letter to Patsy Judge said
Dear Mr Judge
We have analyzed the piece of metal you gave to Mr Ralph Martin we have determined the piece of metal is undoubtful a part off the undercarriage off the plane called the White Bird if you have any questions please write back
Sincerely
Your friends at Avro
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Here's what I think the Avro letter to Patsy Judge said
Dear Mr Judge
We have analyzed the piece of metal you gave to Mr Ralph Martin we have determined the piece of metal is undoubtful a part off the undercarriage off the plane called the White Bird if you have any questions please write back
Sincerely
Your friends at Avro
I think you're right but without the letter I can't prove it.
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Do you recall if this feature was something soldered on, a tab of some kind? or was it just part of the tank and not a separate piece at all.
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Do you recall if this feature was something soldered on, a tab of some kind? or was it just part of the tank and not a separate piece at all.
No hint of solder. It appeared to be a broken fragment, roughly half, of a larger container. The complete container or "tank" seemed to have been roughly the size of a football - way too small to be an oil reservoir for an engine the size of the Lorraine-Dietrich. A sump of some kind?
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I came across the chemical composition info the other day while looking for something else and, of course, now can't find it. The bulk of the work on Project Midnight Ghost was done between 1984 and 1995 BDA (Before Digital Age) so most of it is paper files - three filing cabinets full of paper files.I'll keep looking as time permits.
As I recall, we asked about country of origin and the answer was "paint is paint." I don't remember any discussion of brush versus spray. We don't know how the paint was applied to the aircraft anyway so knowing wouldn't help.
I can appreciate the tedium of wading through masses of paper, believe me. Getting stuff ready for federal audits is no cake walk. I do think it would be valuable to unearth what we already have.
As far as "paint is paint," as I understand it, modern analytic methods can shed light on country of origin, possibly even time frame - and that would be valuable data indeed.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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In looking for items attached to the Whitebird, that resemble the artifact found, ..my focus leans toward this item, labeled
( Airstream). Streamline ... Is this a formed metal piece attached to the plywood sides of the whitebird, and what is it's function?
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In looking for items attached to the Whitebird, that resemble the artifact found, ..my focus leans toward this item, labeled ( Airstream). Is this a formed metal piece attached to the plywood sides of the whitebird, and what is it's function?
I don't see anything labeled "Airstream." There is a tear-drop shaped fairing, probably aluminum, on the right-hand side of the cockpit. My guess would be that it's purpose is to accommodate a need for more room in the cockpit at that location, maybe for Coil's hand or arm. It looks like lightweight metal. The artifact is quite heavy.
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In looking for items attached to the Whitebird, that resemble the artifact found, ..my focus leans toward this item, labeled ( Airstream). Streamline ...Is this a formed metal piece attached to the plywood sides of the whitebird, and what is it's function?
My bad.
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Ric do you have a photo of Ralph Martin and in the gull pond chronology you mention documents what documents are you talking about
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Ric do you have a photo of Ralph Martin and in the gull pond chronology you mention documents what documents are you talking about
Attached is a photo of Ralph Martin and the letters associated with him and Patsy Judge.
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Thanks for the photos and letters....very interesting stuff.
Looking at the artifact ,and possible attachment points,the piece outlined in the attachment below, looks somewhat like a mounting tab to me, along with an indicator by the pattern left behind,... that the fastener was held fast to whatever it was attached too, and the head passed through the tab.( If that is what it is)
Research on the Lorraine -Dietrich engines haven't yielded any clues thus far ,as to the identity of the artifact , and it's belonging to that particular engine. ( will continue the effort).
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There isn't a hole where the red arrow is pointing to, is there? When someone mentions an oily area of an engine, one of the areas that comes to mind is the flywheel/starter ring pan ( see below). That is one area that collects a lot of oil and debris, especially in the case of a rear main oil seal leak..this pan is more applicable to an auto engine , rather than airplane.
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Ric I'm having trouble reading the letter from Patsy Judge to Ralph Martin can you tell me what it said
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Ric I'm having trouble reading the letter from Patsy Judge to Ralph Martin can you tell me what it said
Andy, the whole dialogue is traced in this issue of TIGHAR Tracks (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/1993Vol_9/0903.pdf), starting on p. 5.
Ric recently republished that Chronology for us. I put it in the Ameliapedia as "Gull Pond Chronology." (http://tighar.org/wiki/Gull_Pond_Chronology)
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In the letter from Martin to Judge Martin talks about the Canadian broadcasting corporation asking him about the piece what is he talking about
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In the letter from Martin to Judge Martin talks about the Canadian broadcasting corporation asking him about the piece what is he talking about
Go back to the Gull Pond Chronology (attached again). Check "Spring 1974"
Attached is the letter Martin is talking about.
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Who is Rob Parker and why was he interested in the piece of the metal and can I see the other documents relating to him
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Who is Rob Parker and why was he interested in the piece of the metal and can I see the other documents relating to him
Rob Parker was a television producer for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. He was interested in the piece of metal for the same reson you are - he thought it might be from the White Bird. We have no other documents relating to him.
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Can I see the documents and pictures relating to the plane in the pond
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Can I see the documents and pictures relating to the plane in the pond
I've already posted what we have.
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You also mention someone finding a toolbox at gull pond and stashing it in the bushes and when they go back to retrieve it its gone
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You also mention someone finding a toolbox at gull pond and stashing it in the bushes and when they go back to retrieve it its gone
I don't rember that. We certainly never found a toolbox and if we did we would never have stashed it in the bushes. Where did you get that story?
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CBC reporter Reg Sherran told it to you somebody found a toolbox at gull pond and stashed it in the bushes and when they went back to retrieve it it was gone I learned this from tighar tracks volume 9 number 4
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Thanks. I had forgotten about that story.
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Can you give the full details and why would the white bird be carrying tools
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Can you give the full details and why would the white bird be carrying tools
Nothing more than was mentioned in the TIGHAR Tracks article.
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What else did you hear from Reg Sherren
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What else did you hear from Reg Sherren
Apparently nothing or I would have included it in the TIGHAR Tracks article.
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Can I see the interviews of the people who saw aircraft wreckage at gull pond
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Can I see the interviews of the people who saw aircraft wreckage at gull pond
The only person we interviewed who claimed to have seen aircraft wreckage at the Gull Pond was Patrick McGraw and we have described what he told us. The interview was not videotaped or audio recorded.
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Can I see the transcript
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Can I see the transcript
There is no transcript.
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Ric do you know Patrick McGrath passed away in 2009
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Ric do you know Patrick McGrath passed away in 2009
I think you mentioned that earlier.
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Ric can I see a photo of James Doyle and I'm wondering how did Patsy become his adopted son and I'm having trouble reading Patsy's handwriting he misspells some words in his letter to Ralph Martin
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Ric can I see a photo of James Doyle and I'm wondering how did Patsy become his adopted son and I'm having trouble reading Patsy's handwriting he misspells some words in his letter to Ralph Martin
I'd be happy to show you a picture of James Doyle if I had one, but I don't. I don't know how Patrick Judge became Doyle's adopted son. I never met Judge. He died before we began our investigation in Newfoundland. What little i know about him we learned from a relative - a niece as I recall - and the letters I've already shared with you. Judge's handwriting is difficult to read. Why don't you decipher and transcribe as much as you can and I'll try to help you with the words you can't make out.
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I though you knew what the entire letter said
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I though you knew what the entire letter said
I do but I don't have time to transcribe it all for you. Work out as much as you can and I'll help you with the words you can't get.
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Hey Ric I know this is about Newfoundland but I have been trying to track down the documentary that talks of the white bird being hauled out of the Maine woods by hunters and loggers I have looked everywhere I asked my mom and dad if they saw it they didn't see or don't remember it I looked online there's just no record of any such show there's just no such show
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You may be thinking of an Unsolved Mysteries episode one of the networks (NBC I think) did about our work in Maine. We don't have a copy of it. The year would have been in the late 1980s.
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No Ric I'm not talking about that show I'm talking about the show Robert Gunou saw that told of two hunters that had found and with the help of loggers removed an old aircraft engine and aircraft wreckage from the Maine woods
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I don't know anything about that show.
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Didn't the "white bird hauled 1974" discussion previously in this group address that?
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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Didn't the "white bird hauled 1974" discussion previously in this group address that?
Re-reading the TIGHAR Tracks article it seems that several people claimed to have seen the show but nobody could find a reference to it anywhere. That's the problem with anecdotal recollections. You never know whether somebody is remembering something correctly. It may be that there was a show that made that claim but it is certainly not true that the White Bird's engine was ever hauled out of the woods and identified.
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Ric can I see the documents and photos relating to Maine
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Ric can I see the documents and photos relating to Maine
There are no documents relating to Maine. That was the problem with Maine. No documents, just stories.
We have thousands of photographs from our expeditions in Maine.
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Well can I see the photos and interviews plus I think I know whose cigarette case that might have been
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Well can I see the photos and interviews plus I think I know whose cigarette case that might have been
Where's your transcription of the Patsy Judge letter?
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I already have it can I see the photos and interviews plus I think I know who's cigarette case that might have been
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I already have it can I see the photos and interviews plus I think I know who's cigarette case that might have been
Post the transcript of the letter so that I can check to make sure you got it right.
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Seeing as how the original subject of this thread was the fate of the artifact TIGHAR found in Canada, can we get back to that?
If Capt. Andy is so enthusiastic about plowing through all the White Bird materials that TIGHAR has amassed, perhaps Ric could make the materials available for a day so Andy could dive in to his heart's content.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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Seeing as how the original subject of this thread was the fate of the artifact TIGHAR found in Canada, can we get back to that?
You're correct that this thread has strayed far from its original topic - so far that you have forgotten that the "stick" you referred to when starting this thread was found in Maine, not Canada. I love Maine and I'll always treasure the time we spent in Machias and the Round Lake Hills. It's where we learned our trade. But after many years and many expeditions in Maine we decided that there is no reason to think the White Bird was ever there.
If Capt. Andy is so enthusiastic about plowing through all the White Bird materials that TIGHAR has amassed, perhaps Ric could make the materials available for a day so Andy could dive in to his heart's content.
If Andy or you or anyone else disagrees with our conclusion that Newfoundland, not Maine, is where we should focus our efforts, and if you're willing to pick up that thread and re-test the Maine Hypothesis with real research at your own expense, I'll be happy to do as you suggest - but I don't have time to indulge idle curiosity or posturing for the sake of appearing thorough.
Because the topic of this thread is an artifact which does not appear to have any bearing on the disappearance of the White Bird I'm going to lock the topic. Feel free to start another topic that relates to TIGHAR's investigations in Newfoundland.