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Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Join the search => Topic started by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 22, 2009, 05:46:33 PM

Title: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 22, 2009, 05:46:33 PM
Two small handmade clips were found at the Seven site. (http://tighar.org/wiki/2-6-S-03a_and_2-6-S-03b) 

Have you ever seen something like this? 


Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on November 12, 2009, 01:45:30 PM
Robert Blevins wrote Ric:

"Your item, 26S03B, the bent piece with the screw and the jagged edge, looks quite like an item used in old furniture construction, especially dining tables. I have seen items almost identical to this on old thrift store furniture pieces. I can't remember exactly how they're used, but they are out of sight on the furniture, beneath a table top, for example."

                         Marty
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Jay Burkett on November 12, 2009, 08:01:11 PM
The serrations are meant to "bite" into wood.  The screws are wood screws.  I have also seen this type of hardware before --- I just can't remember where!  I seem to remember seeing them on specialty wooden storage boxes at some hamfest.  Who knows what those boxes were used for.  Perhaps laboratory or optical test equipment? 
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Alfred Hendrickson on November 19, 2009, 09:29:29 AM

"And he puzzled and puzzed, 'til his puzzler was sore . . . " (from "How the Grinch Stole Christmas")

I have puzzled over those clips for a long time. Have not had a "Eureka!" moment yet. Those things annoy me!
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Rudolf Alfons De Meter on June 30, 2010, 09:44:21 AM
Hi,

For all I can observe, looking at the pictures, the little serrated plates are certainly not hand-made but cut out by a machine. IF they are aluminium (which I doubt), the serrations cannot be meant to be pushed or hammered into any hard wood, the aluminium being too soft for that.

IF these are were indeed meant to prevent a piece of wood of moving in regard to another, there would not be many ways to attach them to the piece of wood holding them before "use".

One possibility I am thinking of is that the little plate would be screwed to piece wood "A", with only the serrated part protruding over the edge. Since the wood screws are about 25 mm long, piece of wood "A" would have to be at least 30 mm thick. I am thinking of a thick plank here.
The second hole in the "plank" wold then also receive a screw or a nail to prevent the little plate to pivot around the screw.

The piece of wood "B" that had would have to have the serrations "bite" into, would have to be applied perpendicularly to the axis of piece "A". This makes me think of "B" closing onto "A" as a hinged lid would do. After which the lid may have been nailed shut.

So, I am thinking of a box made of fairly light and soft wood, not a table or anything.

Another thought is that the little plates are of inexpensive manufacture, cheap, mass-produced, as for a disposable box. That makes me think of a wooden ammunition box: light and expendable. The lid may have had to be held firmly in place until opened for e.g. reasons of waterproofing by means od some sort of seal or so.

The bent plate was bent by mechanical action, probably when breaking the box open for one reason or another (firewood?). The bend is certainly not of manufacturing origin.

Just my two cents' worth.

Rudolf.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 30, 2010, 12:55:14 PM
For all I can observe, looking at the pictures, the little serrated plates are certainly not hand-made but cut out by a machine. IF they are aluminium (which I doubt), the serrations cannot be meant to be pushed or hammered into any hard wood, the aluminium being too soft for that.

Many EPAC members have held the gidgies.  The consensus is that they are hand-made rather than machine made.  Although the notches are
carefully made, they do not look as though they were cut by a machine.

But if you find machine-made samples that match the artifacts, we'll have to swallow our pride (again) and admit that you were right and we were wrong.   ;)

Quote
The bent plate was bent by mechanical action, probably when breaking the box open for one reason or another (firewood?). The bend is certainly not of manufacturing origin

You may be right.  Until we find other serrated aluminum (or aluminium) gidgies in their original condition and application, we're all just guessing.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Kevin Weeks on July 01, 2010, 10:57:20 AM
I've had an interesting thought regarding these bits. Hand made and furniture related. what specifically was said about the furniture made from the wood on the island?? there was a coffee table mentioned correct?? was the carpenter on the island or off?? maybe these clips were hand made by the same carpenter who made the box for amelia's bones??
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 01, 2010, 02:04:09 PM
I've had an interesting thought regarding these bits. Hand made and furniture related. What specifically was said about the furniture made from the wood on the island? there was a coffee table mentioned correct?


The way I try to answer questions like this is by searching the TIGHAR website. (http://tighar.org/news/help/82-how-do-i-search-tigharorg)  Lots of references to "coffee tables," but not to one constructed for Gallager.

Searching for "kanawa furniture," on the other hand, leads to Gallagher's 8th Progress Report (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Documents/Gallagher_Report2.html):

"It is hoped to furnish the main living room of the Rest House with furniture constructed entirely from locally grown "kanawa" - a beautifully marked wood which abounds on the island and is being cut to waste as planting proceeds. All other furniture, with the exception of a bed, four chars and sanitary fittings, is also being made locally, although not necessarily from local timber."

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was the carpenter on the island or off?

On.

Quote
maybe these clips were hand made by the same carpenter who made the box for amelia's bones?

Maybe.  Maybe the clips are even made out of aircraft aluminum from the Electra.  Maybe we could think up a hundred hypotheses about them.  Strange things do happen.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Kevin Weeks on July 07, 2010, 04:44:38 AM
Maybe.  Maybe the clips are even made out of aircraft aluminum from the Electra.  Maybe we could think up a hundred hypotheses about them.  Strange things do happen.

so the clips have not been analyzed to determine their alloy?? should be pretty easy to tell if they came off an aircraft. if they resemble 2024/duralumin/alclad then you can determine usage if not a specific plane. also, it looks to me like the screw might have a bit of wood left on it. is there a way to determine what kind of wood is on the screw? the local carpenter used indigenous and imported wood to make furniture, if it's local you can probably make some more assumptions.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 07, 2010, 08:02:36 AM
So the clips have not been analyzed to determine their alloy?

They are made out of a silver-colored, non-magnetic material.

TIGHAR has not paid to have a lab do a metallurgical analysis of them.

Quote
should be pretty easy to tell if they came off an aircraft. if they resemble 2024/duralumin/alclad then you can determine usage if not a specific plane.

That sounds right.

Quote
It looks to me like the screw might have a bit of wood left on it. is there a way to determine what kind of wood is on the screw? the local carpenter used indigenous and imported wood to make furniture, if it's local you can probably make some more assumptions.

The photos do make it look as though some wood has adhered to the screws.  I don't know whether that is true or whether it is just discoloration.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Patrick Dickson on July 08, 2010, 04:41:32 AM
Maybe the serrations are there to grip fabric or carpet ?? as in an airliner. Even though the Electra interior had been extensively modified, there may have been some of the original fabric panels or carpeting still in place...maybe a piece easily removed when salvaging items from the plane that could have been carried to the Seven site ??
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Daniel Paul Cotts on July 08, 2010, 11:54:11 AM
Is there an analysis of the screws regarding dimension and screw pitch? That might determine country of origin. If U.S. then a metallurgical analysis may be useful. If it appears to be consistent with Electra material then extant Lockheed aircraft of that era might be studied for a match.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 08, 2010, 02:30:28 PM
Is there an analysis of the screws regarding dimension and screw pitch?

"Brass wood screws" is all I've heard.

If you could show that there is an identifiable difference in wood screws, as there are with machine screws, that might help.  I have my doubts because wood screws are, sorta by definition, self-tapping.  But this is just a presumption prior to investigation and is defeasible.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Daniel Paul Cotts on July 09, 2010, 10:43:37 AM
There is a large group of experts who read Fine Woodworking magazine. If we submit a short article to them asking for help maybe some good replies will be forthcoming.
The Taunton Press, Inc.
63 South Main St., PO Box 5506
Newtown, CT 06470-5506
Phone: 203-426-8171
Fax: 203-426-3434
Fine Woodworking Editorial: 800-309-8955; fw@taunton.com
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 09, 2010, 10:51:29 AM
There is a large group of experts who read Fine Woodworking magazine. If we submit a short article to them asking for help maybe some good replies will be forthcoming.
The Taunton Press, Inc.
63 South Main St., PO Box 5506
Newtown, CT 06470-5506
Phone: 203-426-8171
Fax: 203-426-3434
Fine Woodworking Editorial: 800-309-8955; fw@taunton.com

"What you mean 'we,' white man?"    :P

Why don't you send them an e-mail with a link to the gidgies page and this thread?  See if it's something that would intrigue them.

Go for it!
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Daniel Paul Cotts on July 09, 2010, 09:52:13 PM
Will do this coming week. When they express interest what is the next step?
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 09, 2010, 10:55:46 PM
Will do this coming week. When they express interest what is the next step?

Steal the text, pictures, and measurements from the article on the gidgies. (http://tighar.org/wiki/2-6-S-03a_and_2-6-S-03b)  Write a very short article explaining that TIGHAR is stumped--we just can't imagine who would make things like this and we're hoping that some woodworkers might be able to identify a use for such odd things.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Daniel Paul Cotts on July 13, 2010, 09:22:16 PM
Editor of Fine Woodworking redirected me to their online forum. Mini-article posted.
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/general-discussion/amelia-earhart-artifacts

While snooping on tighar I found an evaluation of the screws:
http://tighar.org/TTracks/2002Vol_18/1804.pdf

The screws are brass American No. 8, 15/16" length woodscrews meeting specifications that were current from the 1930s up until 1970.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 13, 2010, 10:06:19 PM
Editor of Fine Woodworking redirected me to their online forum. Mini-article posted.
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/general-discussion/amelia-earhart-artifacts

Well done!

Quote
While snooping on tighar I found an evaluation of the screws:
http://tighar.org/TTracks/2002Vol_18/1804.pdf

The screws are brass American No. 8, 15/16" length woodscrews meeting specifications that were current from the 1930s up until 1970.

Thanks.  I'll add that to the gidgies page in the wiki.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Rudolf Alfons De Meter on June 23, 2011, 06:09:06 AM

"And he puzzled and puzzed, 'til his puzzler was sore . . . " (from "How the Grinch Stole Christmas")

I have puzzled over those clips for a long time. Have not had a "Eureka!" moment yet. Those things annoy me!

These thing do not annoy only you. They annoy me as well (still).

I wrote that I thought they were machine-made. Some say they have not.

They are made out of non-magnetic metal and have a silvery appearance. This excludes brass or copper, since exposure would have produced a layer of copper oxide which tends to be green(ish).

This almost only leaves aluminium.

The "clips" appear to me to be about 1.5 mm thick.

Small clips, 1.5 mm thick, aluminium, carefully hand-made. Screw is obviously a wood screw, meant to be screwed in wood at least 30 mm thick, since the screws are about 25 mm long.
30 mm is a thick plank for a box, but who says the screws were screwed into a plank ? Or something even thicker ?

Some will call me Captain Obvious now, I know.

Some of Tighar's members, I am sure, will have some (excellent) skills in working, transforming aluminium sheet.

Now, please get a piece of 1.5 mm Al sheet (Dural if you wish), and trace the outline the way a professional tracer would do it, using tracing blue or, nowadays, a felt marker and a tracing needle. Of course, you would have previously made an accurate sketch of the piece, traced it on cardboard or so and then cut it out to make your tracing pattern on the aluminium.

Place your traced piece of Al sheet in a vise with soft clamps, get your finest jigsaw to make a slightly too large rough cut, much in the way a jeweller would do it, and cut the "clip"out of the sheet.

Next step would be to "finish" the "clip", smoothing the edges with file and sandpaper so not to leave any saw burrs and drill the hole, again without any burrs.

Handmade, you say ? Maybe, but my guess is that you may well spend over one hour to fabricate one of these clips. An expensive "clip" in any time frame.

I happen to live near Angoulême, in the Charente department of France, a town with a world reputation of jewellery making. A "bijoutier" here, is a person, artisan who does all the "metalwork" before any precious stones are set in by another, specialized artisan.

So I went to see my friend "bijoutier" Stefan, who has his workshop in the village of Sers. He is known for precision, fast work. I showed him the pictures of the clips.

To reproduce those, he said, with the same precision, he thought he would spend about one hour apiece. He also thought the clips were stamped out, not being worth the work for whatever purpose they may have been meant.

So my point is: if the clips were really hand-made, some skilled person must have spent substantial time fabricating them, which might indicate they would have been used for some very valuable (wooden) assembly of some sort.

Just an Idea i had.

Rudolf.






Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 23, 2011, 07:51:09 AM
... So my point is: if the clips were really hand-made, some skilled person must have spent substantial time fabricating them, which might indicate they would have been used for some very valuable (wooden) assembly of some sort.

Thanks for the explanation of the issues and for the little peek into the world of jewelry.

Folks on ships and islanders have lots of time for handcrafts.  Look at the handmade aluminum comb (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/12_2/obj7.html) from Niku.  The analysis says it is "crudely made," but I disagree.  Hand made, yes, but very nicely done.  Once in a blue moon, I've tried to fashion little things out of sheet aluminum (very small sheets from the hobby store).  I have some idea of what it takes.  Our clip-maker did nice work.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Don Dollinger on July 21, 2011, 11:03:04 AM
I have seen clips similiar to these on an old car (40's Willy's Coupe) that I once tore down.  In the rearseat area the carpeting went to the end of the floor pan and then traveled up the inside about 6" where it met the bottom of the inside trim panel (part that contains arm rest, window winder, etc.) and there were pieces similiar to this that held the bottom of the carpet against the floor and against the panel to form a sharp crease at that corner.  Had no reason to examine them closely but they looked alot like the ones shown there only they were made of steel and only had 1 screw attaching them to the floor pan.  The teeth gripped the carpet.  Biggest problem is I can not guarantee that the carpet was original as this was on a hot rod that had passed through a few hands before it got to me.  Look closer Ric, there may be a 40's Willy Coupe parked nearby.    :o

LTM,

Don
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Ricker H Jones on July 25, 2011, 10:02:21 AM
The clips found at the Seven Site, and an aluminum nail found later, seem compatible with what was once thought to be a "dado" (trim piece), and is now posited to be a heat shield (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/51_HeatShields/51_DetectiveStory.html).  Its purpose for the castaways may have been an attempt to improvise a cook top which ultimately was consumed by the fire, with the gidgies and the nails falling out on the ground before hand.  Your comments merit additional research.
Rick J
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Patrick Dickson on July 26, 2011, 10:03:56 AM
"Maybe the serrations are there to grip fabric or carpet ?? as in an airliner. Even though the Electra interior had been extensively modified, there may have been some of the original fabric panels or carpeting still in place...maybe a piece easily removed when salvaging items from the plane that could have been carried to the Seven site ??"
 
my thoughts from an earlier post. I have done auto restorations, but not aircraft......I have seen these type of clips somewhere in the past...
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: John Joseph Barrett on July 26, 2011, 11:19:27 AM
Has anyone contacted the Paul E. Garber facility in Silver Hill, MD about these. As the restoration facility for aircraft for the Smithsonian Institution they may be able to answer if these are aircraft parts and what they might be used for. If no one has, I will attempt to cut/paste/copy the necessary info and see if I can come up with anything.  LTM
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 26, 2011, 12:46:38 PM
Has anyone contacted the Paul E. Garber facility in Silver Hill, MD about these. As the restoration facility for aircraft for the Smithsonian Institution they may be able to answer if these are aircraft parts and what they might be used for. If no one has, I will attempt to cut/paste/copy the necessary info and see if I can come up with anything.  LTM

Go for it.  No harm in trying.  A lot of people work at Garber.  Someone may have seen something like the gidgies somewhere.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Chris Johnson on November 22, 2011, 09:01:02 AM
What about the fitting inside this sextant box?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330646043013

6th picture, empty box with some kind of retaining device?
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Rich Ramsey on November 22, 2011, 10:22:47 AM
Damn Chris nice find. I'd almost buy that one. That little piece at the end of the arm holding it on the box looks dead on in the picture. I will say that they "old Car" story fits too as I had a '51 Pontiac with the same parts in it. They too look the same. I am glad I am not Ric and have to figure these things out.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: John Ousterhout on November 22, 2011, 10:47:38 PM
I don't think the Brandis Sextant retaining gizzy is the same as the mystery clips.  I have a Kollsman sextant held in its box by a fabric strap, looking somewhat similar to retention system in the Brandis pictures. Each end of the Kollsman strap has a snap that engages a mating button screwed to the box.  The mating buttons have mounting plates each with two screws.  Picture 6 of the Brandis box shows part of what looks to me to be just such a mounting plate, with one screw visible. On the wood rib opposite appears to be a headless screw, and a blemish that is in about the right position for a second screw.  This makes me think there is a mounting plate still on the end of the strap, but the strap appears too short to reach the necessary distance between two such mounting plates.  My Kollsman strap looks like cotton canvas, and has shrunk enough to make snapping it in place a struggle.  The green strap in the Brandis may be shrunken cotton, making it too short now.  The missing screw, and the headless screw, may be the result of an attempt to stretch and connect the too-short strap. The screws couldn't stand the strain.
  The Brandis retention device doesn't look like the button on my more modern Kollsman - more like a knurled thumb screw.  I would expect Brandis to have used similar furniture in their other boxes of similar age.  What other pictures do we have to study?
I'm still intrigued by the mystery clips.  I need to mull them over more before hazarding a guess.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Chris Johnson on November 23, 2011, 05:36:48 AM
It was a speculative guess but who knows what modifications may have been made to the box.

What other boxes could they have had? Lazy me needs to look at the Luke Filed Inventory again.  Makes sense to me that they could be from a box or other container that would be useful for transporting and storing survival stuff
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: John Ousterhout on November 23, 2011, 06:24:24 AM
"...transporting and storing survival stuff..."
I think that's a great observation.  Castaways that need to move around on the island need to carry their survival stuff with them.  Otherwise they've only got their hands to carry stuff.  Containers would also be important to keep the crabs from getting to the "stuff", or carrying it away.  I can imagine a weak argument that any indication of carrying containers (boxes, back packs, satchels, etc) at a site means that the castaways came from some other location.  A lack of carrying containers, but the presence of other artifacts, would indicate they landed on that spot and just used what they carried ashore.  It seems less likely that they walked there and left stuff behind that would have needed a container to bring - I think they would have wanted to stay near their "stuff", if they thought it was important, and in a survival situation, anything might be important.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: John Ousterhout on November 23, 2011, 06:54:02 AM
While I'm thinking about it, the mystery clips resemble a furniture clip I've seen, but not close enough to be definitive.  I'm also being (highly) speculative here:   The clips I'm thinking of would have been used to retain a cover (usually wood) in a frame (also wood).  Think of a dressing table with a mirror in a frame.  The mirror is held in place from the back with a piece of wood the same size as the mirror.  The piece of wood protrudes from the frame in the back.  The clips engaged the edges of the piece of wood.  The screw in each clip allows the piece of wood to be snugged-down to hold the mirror tightly.  The second hole is for a brad to keep the clip from rotating. 
To install, the screw hole is drilled first and the screw run in part way, then the piece of wood is put in place to hold the mirror, then the clip is rotated into position with the teeth biting into the edge of the piece of wood, then the brad driven in, then the screw tightened down to finish the job.
To remove the piece of wood, just remove the screw (using what for a screwdriver?) and pivot the clip on the brad, which is left in place.  In an emergency, pry up one edge (bending one clip) and pull out the piece of wood to get to the mirror.

There are some things I don't like about this concept.  There are only two clips, and each is different.  For a commercial mirror frame I'd expect 4 or more clips, and all the same.  What sort of "mirror backing" would only need two clips, each a different design?  A quite small mirror? What sort of thing would need retained by screws that must have been in pretty thick wood, judging by the length of the screws?  The screws and clips aren't decorative enough to have been on the "front" of a mirror used by anyone with good taste, unless they were covered or out of sight somehow, implying the clips were on the back side, or inside, or otherwise out of sight, or simply utilitarian.

The association with a strap retainer isn't out of reach, either.  The shape would be OK for holding a strap in place and resisting rotation, hard pulling tension with the screw in shear, and modest pulling that loaded the screw outward.  Again, the combination of the teeth, screw and (assumed) brad hole make it clear to me that the clip is intended to resist rotation.  What does this describe?  'How about a strap that prevents a hinged box lid from opening too far? The clips are mounted at angles inside the box, and the teeth keep the strap aligned so it is nice and flat when the lid is open.  The box wall would need to be thick enough for the screw, implying a rather heavy box.  This also implies hinges, a latch and maybe handles.  What else might need a strap that limits motion?
That's it, I'm out of ideas, especially useful ones.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: John Ousterhout on November 24, 2011, 08:07:51 AM
The bent clip was explained elsewhere as evidence of forced disassembly, which I agree with.  It's easy for me to imagine a lid that has been broken off of a box, but still has the strap connecting them.  A hard pull will pull out one clip, bending it.  Then again, I'm imaging things about a clip that has no definite purpose.  It might be for some other use.  I'd like to step back a bit and ask some rhetorical questions:
1) why use aluminum for the clips? - It's lightweight, doesn't rust, easy to fabricate, is electrically conductive, and might be the only material available that can be worked with available tools. 
'Lightweight' is appropriate for aircraft use, but the long wood screw implies thick wood attachment.  That limits the aircraft applications somewhat.  Lightweight is also appropriate for hand-carried things, like luggage or instrument cases that are used in the field.  I found a wealth of antique custom-made gun cases, on the web of course, with lots of hand-made bits and pieces, for one example.
'Non-rusting' assumes ferrous alternatives could have been chosen instead, but weren't. What ferrous clips (painted or coated with zinc) were like these? Rust stains fabric, so aluminum might be picked for use as a fabric-retainer, rather than something that rusts or corrodes (brass or copper, given long enough, will stain fabric with verdegris). 
'Easy to fabricate' argues for local fabrication (native use), or limited tools (also native), or cheap manufacturing requirements.  Aluminum would be one of the few materials a native artisan would be able to work from aircraft parts, or aluminum ship parts, or aluminum from any source.  What tools did locals have? tin snips, files, saws, drills, torches, machines, CNC?  I've seen amazing work done with a file, hacksaw and patience, but not on cast iron or heavy steel engine parts, which might only be useful as an anchor or anvil.
'Electrically conductive' is an intriguing property, bringing to mind a grounding/bonding clip.  The teeth would bite into the thing needing to be electrically bonded to.  No application comes to mind that would require bonding yet also use a wood-screw.  Did a wire somehow connect to the little hole?  Aluminum tends to corrode easily when used as a conductor.  Anyone got other suggestions for electrical uses?
'Only material available that can be worked with local tools' seems to imply native use and re-work, which has been discussed.

2) Why teeth?  For gripping something to keep it from moving, to prevent something from rotating, to engage with mating teeth, to puncture or weaken something intentionally, for "style".
3) Why a wood screw?
4) Why a little second hole?
5) Why two different designs?

Answering these questions with a variety of ideas may identify some use that is common to all, helping identify a "most likely" reason for being there.
to be continued...
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Chris Johnson on November 24, 2011, 08:26:23 AM
I've been thinking about these items and am begining to think that these could be native made items used for the construction of Gallaghers House at the seven site which may then explain the presence of the wood screw?

Alternativly the remains of a non island native handicraft picked up on the flight.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: richie conroy on January 17, 2012, 04:54:32 AM
also this aint related to this thread but after a quick answer

do any of u guys reckon these parts could be similar, in what there used for but u have to think out the box ?

 
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Chris Johnson on January 17, 2012, 04:59:32 AM
Interesting but though the items look similar the screws in the uper photo look very much different than the fittings in the lower.  Thats not to say that the uper items havn't been modified at some stage.

Is it a sextant box per chance?
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 17, 2012, 05:02:29 AM
do any of u guys reckon these parts could be similar, in what there used for but u have to think out the box ?

There is some similarity.  What are the "parts" used for?
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: richie conroy on January 17, 2012, 05:18:21 AM
(http://www.arguscg.org/manuals/e/gaon-em-repair/28.jpg)

(http://www.arguscg.org/manuals/e/gaon-em-repair/26.jpg)

http://www.arguscg.org/manuals/e/gaon-em-repair/

they are parts of the slow shutter system on a 1930s camera

i know they are only a bit simililar but its a start
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: richie conroy on January 17, 2012, 05:21:14 AM
i think maybe a older camera the parts maybe a bit basic or maybe they are internal parts of a sextant going to do a little research today

worth a try  :)
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on January 17, 2012, 06:23:26 AM
i think maybe a older camera the parts maybe a bit basic or maybe they are internal parts of a sextant going to do a little research today

worth a try  :)
That's an interesting find Ritchie, a camera? Did they have one? If so what type?
The screws look different but, who knows?
I'll have look around as well
Jeff
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 17, 2012, 06:32:15 AM
Earhart had a Kodak Duo Six-20 camera but the artifacts are not part of a camera unless it was owned by Fred Flintstone.  The screws are wood screws and the metal plates are crudely home-made, not manufactured.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: richie conroy on January 17, 2012, 06:53:21 AM
gives thought tho to what the person cud ov copied off to make them ?
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on January 17, 2012, 08:25:44 AM
also this aint related to this thread but after a quick answer

do any of u guys reckon these parts could be similar, in what there used for but u have to think out the box ?

They look to be hand made, no precision there at all Richie. They do remind me of a pair of rifle sling mounts for wooden stock and wooden forestock rifles, homemade of course, they would suffice. Both appear to be able to bite into wood, have hole for sling, one is thin for forestock, one round for rear stock. Age unkown?
Jeff
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: richie conroy on January 17, 2012, 09:08:51 AM
have u seen items similar to these that were found

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Help/Artifact5.html

have asked me dad about them, he reckons they could ov been used for secureing a metal roof to wood to stop it flappin at the edges

 :)
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Tim Collins on January 17, 2012, 09:28:49 AM
Is there any idea as to the size of the items being identified in the stills?   
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: John Ousterhout on January 17, 2012, 09:53:47 AM
Various artifacts, including the little clips,  have plenty of details to be found at http://tighar.org/smf/index.php?board=11.0
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Tim Collins on January 17, 2012, 11:34:08 AM
Is there any idea as to the size of the items being identified in the stills?   

Sorry - I posted this in the wrong forum.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Chris Johnson on January 17, 2012, 11:56:48 AM
have u seen items similar to these that were found

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Help/Artifact5.html

have asked me dad about them, he reckons they could ov been used for secureing a metal roof to wood to stop it flappin at the edges

 :)

Here's a modern equivelent, check out the shape of the washer element?
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Matt Acuff on February 29, 2012, 04:40:33 PM
Hey Guys, this is a 1st post but thanks for having me on the forum.

My father told me about something he had seen on discovery about your research and after a little investigation I for the TIGHAR project. So for the past month or so I've been studying up on all the research you guys have done and sifting through your documents and the like trying to get a handle on everything that has been done up to date. I'm also an ex-air force pilot and grew up around aviation so the project itself has great interest to me.

So I as on the board for the 1st time a few days ago and ran across this thread and at 1st glance I came to the same conclusion that most others have reached. These appear to be some sort of furniture hardware or carpet grips etc. I've taken apart enough cigar boxes to know that they are held together with all manner of thin metal clips, tabs and what have you. All in various metals etc. So the box hardware theory seems to fit.

However, thinking about these things for a few days and (at the time i had only read the 1st few posts) something came t mind last night that may fit. My thought was that perhaps these are a "hand tooled writing implement"?   

My premise follows this line of thought.
1. A potential castaway likely wouldn't have anything to write on/with paper pen etc.
2. They likely would have various scrap bits and scrapes around from any salvage they could get their industrious hands on.
3. After a short time as a castaway it is presumable to think they would have wanted to record there being there. Perhaps out of fear of imminent death or utility. Something such as "AE was hear" or perhaps to record days by notching a tree branch, writhing a short note or something.
4. The serrations on these clips remind anyone of a saw or cutting instrument, however the appear to be far to small to have been used as a saw.
5. So perhaps they were used for cutting carving something else?
6. The serrations could be notched into the metal by use of a stone or corral or some other hard large piece of metal.
7. The screw would serve to attach the clip to a piece of wood or handle
8. The secondary hole as another pointed out could be fashioned to keep the carving tip from spinning. And if this holds and spinning was a problem this could be consistent with back and forth carving / digging motion.

I know it may seem far out, but it was something I arrived at by asking myself what would a castaway need a small serrated edge for?

Oh and sorry for the long post!

BTW Does TIGHAR posses and high resolution satellite imagery of the islands. If not i might be able to obtain low cost imagry at a resolution of about .5m from the GEOEYE 1 satellite.

Lemmie know and thanks for having me on the board.


Matt Acuff
 
MBA Candidate 2012
M.J. Neeley School of Business
Texas Christian University
C: (817) 798-2004
matt.acuff@tcu.edu
http://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewacuff
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Don Dollinger on March 21, 2012, 12:00:09 PM
Quote
Don, your observations about carpet retainers nudged me closer to some vague recollection of the past.

I associated these 'gidgies' with wooden flooring used in some vintage airplanes but could not make a direct identification.  The 'carpet' angle adds something that deserves scrutiny - if autos were using something like this for carpet retention then it is likely aircraft manufacturers would have done the same in outfitting their cabins and cockpits.  Lockheed very well could have used standard parts for the same purpose.  That these are aluminum and 'hand made' could well be from an effort to save weight, however slight, or perhaps just an outfitter's use of available materials to complete a job in the absence of standard parts on the shelf.  That sort of thing still happens in the outfitting industry.
Just thinking out loud about the 5 W's...
Who - Lockheed repairman
What - Interior trim holddown clip
When - During repairs after the groundloop in HI
Where -  Lockheed Plant
Why - Ran out of the clips during final reassembly.  If not locally supplied would take a week or more to get more (no FedEx back then) so fashion a couple out of scrap aluminum to complete repairs  (not a part that will affect safety of the airframe) and get her "out the door" as they say.

LTM,

Don
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Daniel Paul Cotts on March 21, 2012, 12:58:03 PM
Don,
Sounds interesting. Just shooting off my mouth - I've wondered if they came from the aircraft bathroom door which IIRC was made of wood. My guess is that it could have been used as a sled to move items to the Seven Site and later used for firewood.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Matt Acuff on March 21, 2012, 09:33:40 PM
These item especially the second one remind me of the teeth on a clipboard. I havenet seen one like this in awhile and I couldnt find a picture on the internet but I have seen clipboards or just metal clips in general, spring loaded and meant to hold paper together that are highly representative of the dull serrations on the second item.

I would imaging that the flight had various clipboards with maps, charts, flight plan and calculations prob made out of aluminium with steel fittings.

Sorry I could't find a better image but this will give you the idea. Are there any other corroborating photos of FN or AE carrying a clip board or lying around the cockpit Perhaps?
 
(http://www.tsasafety.com/images/bin/9084.jpg)

(http://www.22print.com/eb/metalclip_9521_2.jpg)

(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/246/705/265/1283668195399_hz-myalibaba-web4_4274.JPG)

(http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v2/346840269/metal_shoes_clip.jpg)
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Matt Acuff on March 21, 2012, 10:06:25 PM
These item especially the second one remind me of the teeth on a clipboard. I havenet seen one like this in awhile and I couldnt find a picture on the internet but I have seen clipboards or just metal clips in general, spring loaded and meant to hold paper together that are highly representative of the dull serrations on the second item.

I would imaging that the flight had various clipboards with maps, charts, flight plan and calculations prob made out of aluminium with steel fittings.

Sorry I could't find a better image but this will give you the idea. Are there any other corroborating photos of FN or AE carrying a clip board or lying around the cockpit Perhaps?
 
(http://www.tsasafety.com/images/bin/9084.jpg)

(http://www.22print.com/eb/metalclip_9521_2.jpg)

(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/246/705/265/1283668195399_hz-myalibaba-web4_4274.JPG)

(http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v2/346840269/metal_shoes_clip.jpg)

Ok i did some more digging and they are called bulldog clips or Boston Clips. A google search of either will bring up several variations. Just so you can see the serrations.

(http://img2.etsystatic.com/il_570xN.190829810.jpg)
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: John Ousterhout on April 29, 2012, 10:44:57 AM
J.C. - good thought-provoking ideas.  The weakness I see of the "aircraft shop" hypothesis is the absense of any comparable clips used in other aircraft examined so far.  I like the idea of a craftsman fabricating a couple clips to finish a job after running out of the production clips, but as I understand it no "production" clips have been found in other Lockheeds, so far.  To me that argues for these clips to have been fabricated for a very specific job, rather than to make up a shortfall of stock on-hand.
To me, the bent piece looks like it was bent during forced disassembly, rather than during fabrication.  It makes me think it was holding "something" in place that got pried apart.  In turn, that implies destructive disassembly, rather than disassembly for repair.  It also implies there was no use of proper tools (screw driver, claw hammer) for disassembly.   It makes me think of someone breaking up some wooden object to feed a fire, rather than salvaging wood for some other project.  If the clips had been IN a fire, I would not expect them to be so intact - sharp edges would easily melt in even a modest fire.
Each clip is unique - what does that imply, beyond hand-fabrication?  Each clip would take a significant amount of labor to fabricate - who would take so much time for a couple little clips? 
The odd shapes may indicate the original shape of small scrap pieces, or may indicate the specific functions of each clip.
'Good call about the 3-lobe hole shape.  I understand exactly how a 2-flute drill bit makes a 3-lobe hole.  That also indicates the holes were most likely drilled, not punched nor filed nor reamed.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: John M Kirk on May 24, 2012, 06:44:28 AM
With a little imagination and a hammer.... just a thought.

Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: John M Kirk on May 24, 2012, 06:49:56 AM
Granted, the clips in my above post were used on auto's back in 1938.  Not saying it came from an automobile, just something that used a "Weatherstrip", and required a clip to secure.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Chris Johnson on May 24, 2012, 09:59:36 AM
Whats a weather strip and whats it used for, attached too and otherwise made of?
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on May 24, 2012, 10:25:42 AM
I was thinking the sextant box would be hard to lug around. Not just around an island but even to load it on and off the plane.
Maybe Fred had a shoulder strap attached at some time.
At some point at the seven site the strap was pulled off and it bent the clip.
The teeth were meant to bite into the strap so the screw alone would not tear the strap. The screws to go into the sextant box.
2 clips,  one for each end.
See attachment
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on May 24, 2012, 01:14:05 PM
I developed the idea. One screw means the strap was meant to swivel. The other empty hole was just for the strap and not meant to be screwed into the box.
See attached pdf
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Chris Austin on May 25, 2012, 09:55:47 AM
Whats a weather strip and whats it used for, attached too and otherwise made of?

Weatherstrip is usually a flxible part that prevents "weather" - water, wind etc. from getting into areas you want to keep it out of, especially if one of the adjoining parts is moveable. The most obvious weatherstrips on a car are the rubber at the bottom of door windows and the seal in the door surround that the door abuts when you close it. 
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Chris Johnson on May 25, 2012, 11:27:59 AM
Thanks Chris,

my next question is would the electra have had had something similar to keep out the weather?
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on May 28, 2012, 10:00:05 PM
That the gidgies are more hand-made and from aluminum doesn't prove anything special, but it is suggestive of aircraft shop-craft ...

That makes the best sense to me.

I've worked with sheet aluminum in making flying RC models.  It's not easy to get curves like that into the metal.  For someone who works routinely with metal and who has the tools at hand, it would be a cinch.

Lots of scraps around, lots of tools, lots of skill in an aircraft shop.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on May 29, 2012, 10:49:05 AM
Here is another example of how the wood screws and custom cut plates could be used to attach a strap to a wood box.

The strap could have had a curve on the ends to match the curve of the plates. The teeth part to grip the strap so the holes don’t take all the stress, tightened against a similar diameter washer below. The strap folded over and stitched to the smaller hole. This way the plates were hidden and therefore did not need to match.

Fred Noonan may have had a strap installed on his sextant box, possibly at an airport shop during the trip. Maybe the little handle broke off or he just wanted to make the sextant box easier to carry climbing in and out of the plane.  The plates are hand made for custom project and not a mass produced item. They are different but perform the same function.  Two found, one for each end of the strap.

The sextant box was wood and found in same area that the clip and two wood screws were found. Wood screws could go with the wood box. One screw in each plate allows the strap to pivot.
edit: Also Showing 3 stitches like a leather awl made the "three-lobed" hole described for the smaller hole

Once on the island the sextant box may have used to keep food away from crabs and kindling dry.
The sextant discarded before the trek to the 7 site, but  the inverting eye piece kept to start fires.
A box with a strap would be much easier to carry on trips across the island.

The bent clip may indicate the strap was removed for some other use
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on May 31, 2012, 09:52:43 PM
Jeff, the box in the shadow of the NR16020 looks like it has a similar strap attachment. Look at the far left. The box and strap are about the right size, but strap mounted lower than I showed in my sketch.

But why it would be out there like they were going to use it to prop up the tail doesn't make sense. Maybe it's a different box than the sextant box.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on June 01, 2012, 04:40:39 PM
If the strap was located more towards the center of the box, instead of the top, it may indicate it was intended to also hold the box down in the cabin.

The bent clip may be an indication of a jarring landing where the sextant was damaged and later discarded.

Conflicting sextant readings and an inaccurate map of what Gardner really looked like could then be a reason Fred was not sure he was “On Gardner” in radio transmissions.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on June 02, 2012, 11:19:00 AM
Here is another picture showing what looks like a strap attached to the sextant box which was possibly Fred’s.
See sketch to help ID where I think it is.

The mystery clip or washer is possibly reflecting to the right and the strap hangs down at about a 45 degree angle and then goes under the box.
 The box looks like it has a shadow between the shelf and box with parts of the strap protruding out in places.

It may be more definitive if there was a better picture of it.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Rose Marie Reynolds on June 02, 2012, 11:51:49 PM
Hi, Marty:  I have seen these clips on an antique Victorian shoe display stand.  They were used on the shoe-shaped surface as a cleat which caught the heel of the shoe to keep it on the stand.  It a utility piece which I have seen used on other small wood shelves or cases.  It is versatile because of the two holes which allows different positioning.  The serrated edge gives a slight amount of grip against whatever it's holding. 

As a basic "L" bracket, they would also have been used to support a shelf inside a wood box.  Many pieces of scientific equipment used to be transported in wood boxes, like a microscope or sextant.  The shelf would  have cut-outs to help support the item, or hold attachments.  Hope this helps.  Regards, Rose Reynolds
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 03, 2012, 04:47:12 AM
I have seen these clips on an antique Victorian shoe display stand.  They were used on the shoe-shaped surface as a cleat which caught the heel of the shoe to keep it on the stand.  It a utility piece which I have seen used on other small wood shelves or cases.  It is versatile because of the two holes which allows different positioning.  The serrated edge gives a slight amount of grip against whatever it's holding. 

That makes some sense.  Could you get some pictures of such clips?

Quote
As a basic "L" bracket, they would also have been used to support a shelf inside a wood box.  Many pieces of scientific equipment used to be transported in wood boxes, like a microscope or sextant.  The shelf would  have cut-outs to help support the item, or hold attachments.

I guess we have always supposed that the clips were used in the sextant box somehow, then ripped or broken out at the Seven Site when the attachment points were no longer needed.  But that is all speculation.

As with the first supposition, if you have photos of similar clips being used in an instrument case, that would be most helpful.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Rose Marie Reynolds on June 03, 2012, 03:33:02 PM
Hi, again:  I no longer have the shoe display rack in my possession.  I have been trying to find a similar one for sale online.  Will post a photo if I find one.  Very much enjoying this search.  I have a background in Anthropology/Archeology and also Ecological Biology, as well as 30 years in the Antiques business.  Fine Woodworking was my bible for many years.  I also have an extensive commercial perfume/cosmetics bottle collection and several books on the subject.  Very interesting following the work TIGHAR has done and is doing. Rose
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Bill Mangus on June 03, 2012, 04:20:16 PM
 :) Marty, has anyone suggested seeing if a curator/owner of a comtemporary sextant box would allow removal of the liner to see what's under there?  We'd be really, really careful! ???
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: richie conroy on June 03, 2012, 04:30:34 PM
Marty

look at the plate on bottom of this sextant box, could possibly be were Tighar's gidge came from ? screw looks similar as well

(http://pacificcoast.net/~njames/ssts5.jpg)



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Schick-Brass-Sextant-type-Stadimeter-Stamford-Connecticut-/380443020135?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item58942bcb67#ht_15916wt_1449
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 03, 2012, 08:02:40 PM
:) Marty, has anyone suggested seeing if a curator/owner of a comtemporary sextant box would allow removal of the liner to see what's under there?  We'd be really, really careful! ???

TIGHAR and/or some TIGHAR members own Brandis sextants.

So far as I know, there are no liners in them.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 03, 2012, 08:05:38 PM
look at the plate on bottom of this sextant box, could possibly be were Tighar's gidge came from ? screw looks similar as
well

Could be something like that, only a little more crude and mysterious.

I don't know whether anyone has determined whether the wood screws in the gidgies could be fully seated in the bottom of the Brandis-type box.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on June 05, 2012, 12:21:41 PM
Here is a blow-up of the strap and box seen under the plane.
It looks like a round headed screw with a light colored feature around it.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on June 05, 2012, 08:31:25 PM
Marty, if you download the box1 picture and zoom in on the end of the strap you should be able to see what looks like 6 stitches in a fan pattern coming from the second hole. This is very similar to what I showed in the sketch earlier and attached again. I had showed only 3 stitches because the description of the smaller hole said it was 3 lobed. I think the second hole is 3 lobed because they forced leather stitches thru it with an awl or heavy leather needle.
The clip I showed in the sketch was the un-bent clip. The clip in the box1 picture could be 2-6-S-03b(the longer and bent one) attached on the outside of the strap with no fold over, or it is something very similar. Anyway the picture seems to indicate an attachment very similar to the sketch I did.

This box1 picture was from the Purdue files,the one where AE and FN are under the tail while the wheel is worked on, zoomed in on

edit: The clip may already be bent in this picture. The strap looks forced out by the bend of the clip
edit: The wider portion of the light colored feature, which would be about at where the pivot hole and screw should be, could be the washer I showed only the washer is a little wider than the clip and sticks out.

Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on June 06, 2012, 01:03:11 PM
Attached is an interpretation of the BOX1 image above.
You need to download and zoom in on the BOX1 image and you should be able to see the fan feature (stitches) what looks like the clip (2-6-S-03b) and the top of the screw with big washer below.

The clip may actually already be bent somewhat in this picture.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on June 23, 2012, 11:03:23 AM
There appears to be a dovetail joint at the bottom of the box in the box1 picture
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: C.W. Herndon on June 23, 2012, 11:57:22 AM
Gregory, I think you may be looking at the wrong kind of box here. If you check the large original picture, there are two people around the tail wheel of the Electra and they appear to be working on it possibly adding nitrogen to the strut or greasing the axle, but that is not clear from the picture. I would hazard a guess that these people were mechanics and the box you see was a tool box for one of them. During that period of time and even after WWII many working people constructed their own tool boxes out of wood. The one in the picture also appears to have a very substantial strap as would be needed to carry heavy tools.
 
AE and FN are on the opposite side of the aircraft and I doubt that Fred would have left his sextant that close to any work being performed on the aircraft because of the delicate nature of the instrument.

Just guesses on my part but something to be considered.

Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on June 23, 2012, 01:25:22 PM
I agree C.W.
It may be the wrong kind of box. If you look back at post 71, I mentioned that upfront. I also posted the full picture from the Purdue collection.
However,  If you look back in the thread I also posted a picture of the box from one of Tighar's articles that is assumed to be Fred's sextant box on an earlier Pan Am flight and it has a strap that could be attached in the same place as this box.
The box under the plane is about the right size (from what can be seen), has a clip with similar features ( a screw on one end and a hole that could be sewn to the strap on the other). You will need to down load the picture then zoom in on it to see the features. It looks bent by the way the strap is forced out. It seems to have some anomalies where the sawcut teeth would be.
 I did multiple sketches on what the clip might be for, then found pictures that could show the attachment. This box has a similar attachment. Even if not the sextant box it shows a method of attachment conistent with the sketches I did.
   It does not make much sense, but who knows? Maybe the mechanics thought about using the box to prop up the wheel and Fred grabbed it away and bent the clip. He is sitting under the tail looking at his sextant box and laughing about it afterwards. Or they could have unloaded the plane to get at other stuff to help work on the wheel, and lighten the tail, and the sextant box just shows up in the picture.

edit: Fred could have seen how mechanics attached straps to their boxes and had them do the same to his sextant box.
edit: There could be 2 sextant boxes. One old one that was used as a tool box and one that held the preventer sextant
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on June 23, 2012, 11:36:05 PM
Marty,
Do you know if the artifacts 2-8-S-35a&b ("gaskets" found in 2007) were found near these little clips that were found in 2001? Both were at the Seven site but do you know how close together?
Also, do you know the size of the gaskets or where there is a picture of them?
Have they been dated or identified?
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 24, 2012, 11:33:28 AM
Do you know if the artifacts 2-8-S-35a&b ("gaskets" found in 2007) were found near these little clips that were found in 2001? Both were at the Seven site but do you know how close together?
Also, do you know the size of the gaskets or where there is a picture of them?
Have they been dated or identified?


My answer is essentially "no" to all of these questions.  I don't know about the location, size, or identification.  Someone else probably has better answers, but they are not necessarily involved in the Forum.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on June 24, 2012, 11:29:09 PM
Marty, I think I found a picture of the gaskets that Irvine Donald took at D.C. The card with the clips said gaskets may be related.
What I was thinking is the gaskets may be used as an ease or cushion for threads passing thru a sharp metal hole.
Something similar shows up in the picture of a box below the plane. The pic needs to be download and zoomed-in to see it.
One way to see if they are related to the thread pattern is to see if the gasket is crushed where the thread fan pattern should be. Approx. 90 to 180 degrees of the gasket circle could be crushed.

An interesting thing to look at on the clips is gouging. Possibly the needle had less room to fit after the first threads were put in and caused the gouging at the rim behind the threads. See link that shows gouging
http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2004Vol_20/how.pdf

Also the shaft of the screw could indicate heavy wear near the head caused by the clip applying the load to the screw. Then below that, an un-worn but dyed ring where the strap would be, Then below that some minor wear rings where the washers would be. See link where the screw is out and cleaned. It could indicate that pattern.
Maybe something to look at for those with access to the artifacts
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 23, 2012, 12:36:20 PM
Here is a more organized presentation. See PDF attached with annotations added.
The gasket artifacts relationship to the clip artifacts.
The gasket and clips were found in the same area.
 A gasket used for its intended use should be flattened evenly, yet the artifacts are not. A gasket protecting threads from being cut by a thin plate could deform the gasket un-evenly. See picture of un evenly deformed gasket and fan pattern with circular ring in the enlarged photo.

The clip relationship to the thread pattern
If the first threads filled up the hole, then forcing the remaining threads in behind them could gouge the rim of the hole behind the threads. An awl may have been needed to open the hole wider in the leather. An awl or heavy needle could cause the gouging seen on the artifact. See picture of clip for gouging than occurs behind where the first threads would be.  Note there are no rotation marks at the smaller hole, just at the one with the screw.

Regarding if the box in the picture is “The sextant box”
“Mr. Gatty thinks that the box is an English one of some age and judges that it was used latterly merely as a receptacle (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Bones_Chronology5.html)”
That later use could have been a receptacle for tools before the flight. The box was described as having dovetail joints. The box in the picture has what appears to be dovetail joints. An aircraft mechanic could have made a tool box from an old sextant box or “The sextant box” was taken out to lighten the tail.

Possible “smoking gun”?
The artifact is not a machine manufactured item. The holes are not centered, the cuts un even. This artifact is a one of a kind item
The clip in the picture already looks bent out and has a similar size and shape to the artifact. The picture is only 96dpi. If what looks like teeth could be enhanced, they could serve as an identifying "bar code" if they match the hand cut teeth of the artifact. Also the gouge marks could identify the clip in the photo as the artifact found

I'm not sure of the scale of the gaskets.  I only have the picture Irv took of them from a presentation at DC. I attached a jpg crop of the gasket since making a pdf presentation from the jpg made some distortions.

Please click on the PDF below. Not just the jpg
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on August 07, 2012, 07:16:22 PM
Attached is a 300ppi image ordered from Purdue (it lists as 300dpi in properties). See attached
The box is under the plane to the left
If you download it and then zoom in on the strap clip, it shows what could be "teeth" a little better (depending on the viewer used, and if quick view is turned off). However, the stitching and dovetail joints don't show up as well
Note the Coke bottles could be used to determine scale.

Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Tim Collins on August 08, 2012, 07:09:09 AM
Any idea as to what function the teeth would have in the application you are suggesting?  Aren't "teeth" usually employed as sort of gripping mechanism on something that is adjustable? 
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on August 08, 2012, 07:59:32 AM
Any idea as to what function the teeth would have in the application you are suggesting?  Aren't "teeth" usually employed as sort of gripping mechanism on something that is adjustable?

The teeth are meant to grip, however in the proposed application they are not adjustable. Adjustable mechanisms, like tie-downs with teeth, are what made me think of the strap as the use for the clip.  Although not adjustable, they would still distribute the load over the strap instead of the screw taking too much load and cutting into the strap.
Note the teeth are rounded off and not sharpened. This could mean they are intended to grip something soft yet not cut into it. The second hole of the clip is tied to the strap so it always keeps the teeth pointed in the opposing direction of the strap pull.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on August 11, 2012, 09:14:14 AM
See side by side comparison of the clip in the 300 dpi image and a picture of the artifact at a more similar angle.
The screw is off center/ low on the artifact and the screw on the clip in the 300dpi image appears to be off center/ low. They appear to have the same error in the hole drilled.
In the picture of the artifact the screw is not set all the way down so the outline drawn shows where the hole is and does not show the screw.
See added comparison at bottom of attached PDF
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Bob Lanz on August 11, 2012, 12:32:12 PM
I am going to hazard a guess that the clips in question are not those of the handle for a Sextant Box.  The serrations though corroded by time would have been much sharper then and IMO used as some sort of an adjusting mechanism, for what I can't speculate.  Though the screw is a wood screw, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was used for the handle on a Sextant Box.  On this site, you can see a 1935 vintage Sextant Box (http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/1741669/box-sextant-heath-co-hezzanith-endless-tangent-screw-automatic-clamp-no-y826-1935).  This, in my humble opinion, would be more indicative of the type of handle and fasteners used on most of that period.  Notice the lid locking toggles and what appears to be a keyhole.  Were there any keys in Fred Noonan's inventory?  Maybe we will never know what those clips are from; that has raised so much speculation about what they are for.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on August 11, 2012, 02:49:25 PM
I am going to hazard a guess that the clips in question are not those of the handle for a Sextant Box. 

Bob,
Although I am not married to the idea that the box in the 300dpi picture is "the sextant box", I believe the sextant box thought to be Fred's did have the wire pull handle it originally came with and a shoulder strap that was a modification made to a nautical sextant box for use in air travel. Since the trips are shorter on a plane than on a ship, the need to carry the box on and off is increased, so an added shoulder strap should make that easier.

Note that the sextant box that is thought to be Fred Noonan's has what appears to be both a shoulder strap and the wire pull handle. See picture below of the sextant box (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/52_NumbersGame/52_NumbersGame.html) from TIGHAR files. I did a sketch showing where the strap appears to be back in post 73.

 If the box in the Pan Am picture below is Fred's  and was found on Gardner, it appears it had an added strap at one time. Gallagher did not describe that it had a strap so it could have been taken off at the Seven site and the clips could be all that remains.
edit Added numbers04 jpg with contrast adjusted to see strap better
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Bob Lanz on August 11, 2012, 04:49:59 PM
I am going to hazard a guess that the clips in question are not those of the handle for a Sextant Box. 

Note that the sextant box that is thought to be Fred Noonan's has what appears to be both a shoulder strap and the wire pull handle. See picture below of the sextant box (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/52_NumbersGame/52_NumbersGame.html) from TIGHAR files. I did a sketch showing where the strap appears to be back in post 73.

 If the box in the Pan Am picture below is Fred's  and was found on Gardner, it appears it had an added strap at one time. Gallagher did not describe that it had a strap so it could have been taken off at the Seven site and the clips could be all that remains.

Gregory,

Frankly in the picture with the yellow square, I do not see where there was a strap and it is too grainy to enhance.  I will agree in part that IF the box had a strap, the clips you show in your rendering would be reversed so that the strap would pull against the teeth of the clip.  That is likely why one of the clips though different in shape would have been bent, from pulling too hard on it.  That being said, those two "gidgies" as Marty called them are of a different shape.  Unless someone made them for FN as an add on later to the box, why wouldn't they be almost identical in size and shape?  Then I have to ask, what was the extra hole for?  It couldn't swivel if there were two screws. 
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on August 11, 2012, 07:43:12 PM
Bob, 
Regarding post 73, If you zoom in too close it will be too grainy to see. Just zoom enough for the whole image to fill the screen. Use the sketch I did in post 73 to see where to look. Its difficult to see right off and you need proper lighting in the room but the strap is there.  You may have to download these files so you can then zoom in properly. Just clicking on the images attached is likely not going to be enough.

The clips are not identical and I agree they were made as an add on. That is what I have been saying. It's why they are important. They are unique.

 The extra hole is to tie the clip to the strap so when the strap is rotated the clip always stays pointed in the direction where the teeth resist the pull. The extra hole is to attach to the strap only to maintain proper alignment, It's not meant to screw into the box. This allows the clip and strap to rotate and not get miss-aligned. There are no rotation marks in the second hole. Only gouge marks, like it was sewn to the strap. The image of the box under the plane shows this attachment. It has a screw in one hole and stitches in the other, like the sketches I did before finding that picture.

This is explained better in the PDF
Please download the PDF and other images attached in the other post,  then open them and zoom in if you need to, but don't zoom too much. And pan down to see all of the PDF
Please let me know if you can't open or see the PDF attached
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Bob Lanz on August 11, 2012, 11:00:40 PM
Gregory,
No matter how you cut it, that is a very poor quality photo.  With digital imaging software, I took the picture in post 73 and re-sized it 1% at a time re-sampling to keep the image at 300 ppi until I had a much larger and higher quality picture.  All I got was a better quality picture of nothing, IMO.  I wouldn't even attest to the fact that it is Noonan's Sextant Box.  I also find it interesting that FN would just set his Sextant box down where it is.  One would think that as important as that instrument was that it would be in the plane or in a safer place.  I'm sorry, I just don't see what you see in that photo.
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Greg Daspit on August 12, 2012, 12:12:46 AM
Bob, Agreed, its a bad quality picture however, the picture in post 73 in its current resolution is good enough for me to see the strap.
I think if you increased the ppi you may have only added pixels where there shouldn't be any. That was super nice of you to make that effort and it is appreciated by me even though you can't see the strap. You may want to try only adjusting contrast slightly. Again, just zoom in enough so the whole picture fills the screen.  You may even be looking too hard for it. Just look at the overall box. There is a strap there.

I agree the box under the plane may not be Fred's sextant box, with a sextant still in it, for the reasons you say. That is a constructive and logical comment that Woody has already made, and I had said to begin with when I first posted the image.
In taking that comment into consideration, the box under the plane could still be the sextant box found on Gardner because there was no sextant found in the box on Gardner. In fact the box found was described as likely being latterly used only as a receptacle. That later use could have been a tool box before the last flight.
Even if it is only a tool box, not even an old sextant box, it still could have made it to the seven site, where it was dissasembled, the strap taken off and the wood part burned or lost. Note all of the supplies taken from the NC or gone now but there is a picture of them. Stuff on that island obviously gets scavanged or weathers away. Again I am not married to the idea that "the sextant box" has to be related to the clip. I do think a box or boxes with straps are easier to carry accross the island.
I do beleive the box under AE's plane, what ever it is for, could be related to the clip for the reasons shown in the latest PDF. It may even be a smoking gun(edit: in my opinion) if a better resolution image could be obtained
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Mark Pearce on April 23, 2014, 10:22:08 PM
Seems to me these two clips might be related in some way to the eight pieces of copper screening that were found at the same site in 2001.
The serrated edges of the clips may have been designed to grip the open weave of the screening while keeping it stretched over a wood frame or support of some kind. 

http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2002Vol_18/researchreport2.pdf

The clips and eight pieces of screen are listed here under "From Fieldwork at “Seven Site” Aukeraime North 2001"
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Expeditions/NikuVI/PIPAreport/PIPAAppendices/PIPAAppendixC.html
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 24, 2014, 05:50:14 AM
Seems to me these two clips might be related in some way to the eight pieces of copper screening that were found at the same site in 2001.

The clips (or "giddies"as we call them) are more complicated than they look.  The screws are standard American wood screws, which argues against them being associated with the British settlement.  The aluminum plates are home-made, not manufactured, and though of different shape, seem to serve the same purpose.  There are only two of them.  If they were used to somehow fasten the strips of copper screening it seems like there should be more of them. 
The puzzling thing is the second small hole in each plate.  It must be there for a reason.
These seem to be simple home-made devices fabricated by an American from available materials for some specific purpose.  I can't think why the Coasties would have any need to make something like this, although that's certainly a possibility. I keep thinking of the sextant box and the possible need to modify its interior so as to secure some attachment the box was not designed to hold. 
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: JNev on April 24, 2014, 11:38:31 AM
Seems to me these two clips might be related in some way to the eight pieces of copper screening that were found at the same site in 2001.

The clips (or "giddies"as we call them) are more complicated than they look.  The screws are standard American wood screws, which argues against them being associated with the British settlement.  The aluminum plates are home-made, not manufactured, and though of different shape, seem to serve the same purpose.  There are only two of them.  If they were used to somehow fasten the strips of copper screening it seems like there should be more of them. 
The puzzling thing is the second small hole in each plate.  It must be there for a reason.
These seem to be simple home-made devices fabricated by an American from available materials for some specific purpose.  I can't think why the Coasties would have any need to make something like this, although that's certainly a possibility. I keep thinking of the sextant box and the possible need to modify its interior so as to secure some attachment the box was not designed to hold.

The aluminum construction and idea of "fabricated by an American from available materials for some specific purpose" seems like a fair starting point - and says alot.

Aluminum happens to be readily available around aircraft.  It's true that there was aircraft junk in the region, which could easily be a source.  But why such a specialized design?  The teeth imply 'grip', but the second hole is odd and remains a mystery to me.  When I see a second, smaller hole like that I tend to think of 'anti-rotation' or some 'safety feature', or perhaps a secondary attachment for anchoring something. 

The first two thoughts just named are typical around airplanes.  The teeth also might not have been merely for gripping, but perhaps to offset some rotational force.  The wood screws take it away from direct attachment to primary structure and of course suggest attachment to wood.  Floors are the only thing that come to mind in the Electra, offhand.

The sextant box is a fairly clear candidate for having spent time in an aviation setting (especially if that box was related to what we would like to find it related to), so aviation-grade materials in a hand-made fix or modification would not be a surprise.  The 'grip' feature has, I think, been explained as a possibility - strap hold-downs.  Why the small hole?  For an anti-rotation tack, perhaps?  Why not a second screw?  Maybe they were an expedient after-thought to keep the tabs oriented properly.

All speculation of course, but I absolutely agree that these were purpose built, and the strong implication by material type is American (screws) with aviation as a likely background (aluminum).
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Martin_Peters on May 13, 2014, 03:07:44 PM
Could these clips be part of those kites Amelia seems to have carried ?
(There was a photo in the post about whether a spot in the Lambrecht photo could have been AE or a flare or a kite).

M
Title: Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
Post by: Bob Smith on March 16, 2015, 10:13:13 AM
similar to vernier adjustment tags on auto flywheels for adjusting spark timing?? Also could be a locator or indicator of inclination/declination on a sextant or surveyor transit..