TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Ric Gillespie on March 19, 2014, 01:29:52 PM
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There has been lots of discussion about the remnants of the original ALCOA labeling on Artifact 2-2-V-1. All we can see is a D and a fainter A. We may be able to get more. Jeff Glickman would like to try hyperspectral imaging of the artifact. Jeff says:
"Hyperspectral imaging is a useful tool for understanding more about objects than is visible with the naked eye. Hyperspectral imaging is
used in multiple fields, including conservation. This article from the Cantor Art Institute provides a nice introduction to hyperspectral
imaging (http://cantorscience.wordpress.com/2011/12/21/hyperspectral-imaging/).
There is a possibility that hyperspectral imaging will reveal new information about 2-2-V-1 so I’d like to take hyperspectral images of it.
If we are to do so, we’d have to work out the logistics of getting 2-2-V-1 together with the camera, whether that is here in Washington, there in PA or elsewhere.
I looked into renting a Surface Optics SOC710-VP (http://surfaceoptics.com/products/hyperspectral-imaging/soc710-portable-hyperspectral-camera/) which is $1,500 for 3 days, or $2,000 for a week. If you would pay for the camera rental I will, as usual, donate my services to take, process, and interpret the imagery."
This seems like a very worthwhile course of action but we'll need sponsorship. Who will help with the cost? Our "Canton Repair" fans should be especially eager to have this down. It could prove your case and eliminate 2-2-V-1 as a possible smoking gun.
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$200 headed yours (snail mail).
J.Guthrie Ford
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I realize this process might reveal contaminants such as minerals (coral and ocean exposure history? specific enough to help pinpoint historic locale???) and hydrocarbons, etc. but how deep does it go? Can it reveal tempering / variances in conductivity, etc.?
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Does Jeff have any friends at the University of Washington GAO lab? (http://faculty.washington.edu/xgao/research.html)
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Can it reveal tempering / variances in conductivity, etc.?
I don't know. I had never heard of it until Jeff suggested it.
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Does Jeff have any friends at the University of Washington GAO lab? (http://faculty.washington.edu/xgao/research.html)
I don't know but we decided it would be better to have one for several days and pay for the rental rather than borrow one for an afternoon. We'll plan it for sometime when Jeff will be on the East coast and we'll do it here at the new TIGHAR Center for Aviation History Studies (aka "the farm"). We finally have room to do stuff like this. Very exciting.
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$200 headed yours (snail mail).
J.Guthrie Ford
Thank you Guthrie. Who's next?
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The CAP has Hyperspectral Imaging equipment (after all, crumpled aluminum is something the CAP is generally very interested in finding), and generally at least one set of equipment per Region, and they might be interested in making this a practical training exercise as there aren't that many opportunities to practice with the gear. I'm not talking about anything that involves flying the equipment.
Do you think it worthwhile to pursue that direction? I have a few contacts with NE Region CAP.
amck
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The CAP has Hyperspectral Imaging equipment (after all, crumpled aluminum is something the CAP is generally very interested in finding), and generally at least one set of equipment per Region, and they might be interested in making this a practical training exercise as there aren't that many opportunities to practice with the gear. I'm not talking about anything that involves flying the equipment.
Do you think it worthwhile to pursue that direction? I have a few contacts with NE Region CAP.
amck
Interesting idea.. I know some former new england CAP members as well...
Ric.. what exactly would be the expected findings? Further paint markings?
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Do you think it worthwhile to pursue that direction? I have a few contacts with NE Region CAP.
Let's at least find out what kind of equipment they to see it would be appropriate for our purposes.
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Ric.. what exactly would be the expected findings? Further paint markings?
Maybe. I don't much about the technology but if Jeff Glickman thinks it would be a good idea that's good enough for me.
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Looking to see if I can find any real specs, but here is some info
"The Airborne Real-time Cueing Hyperspectral Enhanced Reconnaissance, also known by the acronym ARCHER, is an aerial imaging system that produces ground images far more detailed than plain sight or ordinary aerial photography can.[1] It is the most sophisticated unclassified hyperspectral imaging system available, according to U.S. Government officials.[2] ARCHER can automatically scan detailed imaging for a given signature of the object being sought (such as a missing aircraft),[3] for abnormalities in the surrounding area, or for changes from previous recorded spectral signatures.[4]"
The above comes from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Real-time_Cueing_Hyperspectral_Enhanced_Reconnaissance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Real-time_Cueing_Hyperspectral_Enhanced_Reconnaissance)
More found here, including presentations/ courses on the technology
http://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/advanced-technologies/ (http://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/advanced-technologies/)
fact sheet with CAP contacts
http://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/advanced-technologies/ (http://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/advanced-technologies/)
Whether or not it could be used on the ground with an object nearby is a good question.
amck
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Looking to see if I can find any real specs, but here is some info
"The Airborne Real-time Cueing Hyperspectral Enhanced Reconnaissance, also known by the acronym ARCHER, is an aerial imaging system that produces ground images far more detailed than plain sight or ordinary aerial photography can.[1] It is the most sophisticated unclassified hyperspectral imaging system available, according to U.S. Government officials.[2] ARCHER can automatically scan detailed imaging for a given signature of the object being sought (such as a missing aircraft),[3] for abnormalities in the surrounding area, or for changes from previous recorded spectral signatures.[4]"
The above comes from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Real-time_Cueing_Hyperspectral_Enhanced_Reconnaissance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Real-time_Cueing_Hyperspectral_Enhanced_Reconnaissance)
More found here, including presentations/ courses on the technology
http://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/advanced-technologies/ (http://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/advanced-technologies/)
fact sheet with CAP contacts
http://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/advanced-technologies/ (http://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/advanced-technologies/)
Whether or not it could be used on the ground with an object nearby is a good question.
amck
Sounds much broader than needed in this instance. The little I read indicates usefulness in finding things like oil patches. I'm sure This is the sort of things that the cap unit would do
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It was originally developed to recognize the spectral signature of things like aircraft aluminum and human beings as part of CAP's search and rescue mission looking for crashed aircraft. I'm pretty sure they have an extensive library of aluminum signatures to compare images to.
Since there are much fewer missing aircraft these days (everyone has a gps and a cell phone), it gets a lot more use lately for missions like disaster assessment of oil spills and such.
amck
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Whether or not it could be used on the ground with an object nearby is a good question.
Thanks Jihad. I'll pass this along to Jeff and see what he thinks.
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Just curious. Is this ARCHER technology something that could be used for the Midnight Ghost project?
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Just curious. Is this ARCHER technology something that could be used for the Midnight Ghost project?
L'Oiseau Blanc was mostly wood and fabric. By now the engine is probably all that's left and I doubt that ARCHER would pick it up. LIDAR, on the other hand, seems to be a possibility.
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Would there have been some fairly large fuel tanks, or are we assuming they'd be gone by now?
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I agree with Ric - if Jeff Glickman says it'd be a good idea, then it needs to be done. My check will go out in the mail today.
Remember, it was Jeff who first spotted the Bevington Object, simply by taking another look at something TIGHAR already had. And look what that has turned into!
LTM, who knows when to call in the experts.
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
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Remember, it was Jeff who first spotted the Bevington Object, simply by taking another look at something TIGHAR already had. And look what that has turned into!
Right on Mr. Fowler! Add to that the increasing importance of knowing as much as possible about the labeling on 2-2-V-1. We really need to do this.
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Have you tried looking at it under UV light yet?
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Have you tried looking at it under UV light yet?
Not yet. Been too busy running around doing TV gigs re MH370. Weird - but good exposure for TIGHAR.
We have a lot of money to raise. As the saying goes, "No bucks, no Buck Rogers."
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Since you are going to rent this device for a couple of days are there any other artifacts, something from the 7 site maybe, that would also benefit from this type of analysis?
Here is link to newsletter showing some forensic applications of this technique:
http://www.chemimage.com/news/newsletter/forensic_focus/
The one where they manage to make out obscure carvings into a whale tooth is especially interesting.
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I've worked with hyperspectral imagery for a while through my research at Texas State University. All of my experience deals with remote sensing in aerial and satellite imagery rather than artifact analysis.
Getting the equipment and gathering the imagery is only half the equation. With the hyperspectral imagery you can take data from varying wavelengths and perform calculations on them to make certain features stand out. One common formula I use is called the Normalized Difference Vegetation Index (NDVI) which is the near infrared added to the visible spectrum divided by near infrared added to the visible spectrum. This particular index is used to locate healthy green vegetation. Something that is simply green but not alive will not show up. You need the software and knowledge to perform the analysis portion of the task.
I would assume this is where the expertise of Jeff Glickman comes into play again. Keeping my fingers crossed that this will yield something useful.
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My fingers are crossed too ...
... but I uncrossed them long enough to write a check for this effort. Remember - questions are cheap, answers are expensive. I know Jeff well enough to know that this effort will be well worth it.
LTM, who really means the check is in the mail,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
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Monty you are absolutely correct. The answers are expensive that's why there are so few of them. In regards to Jeff Glickman, referring to my own personal experience. I've been working with drones to gather my research data for about 7 years. With drones becoming so prevalent I am often ask the question of whether I feel that what I am doing is no longer unique. My answer is it's not just the data you collect but what you do with it. Almost anyone can buy a cheap drone and take nice aerial photos. However, in the right hands that data can tell many other things. The hyperspectral photography may or may not pan out. I'm happy to see it being explored.Talk is cheap. It's easy to criticize others work. I, however, have not seen anything that looks better than the theory that Tighar presents. As soon as I can get my dissertation put to bed (hopefully soon) I will be in a position to write a check to Tighar as well.
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Ric,
I'll hand off a check toward this effort when I see you in Dayton (maybe faster than snail mail). I'd really like to see what can be wrung out of 2-2-V-1 by this method, win lose or draw.
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http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/44_DadosGalore/44_DadosGalore.html
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/NTSB_Report/ntsbreport.html
If the equipment is rented or if others do the work, are there any other artifacts that would be worthy of a look? It seems most labeling we find is on interior surfaces, who knows what image may be lurking in the shadows on say one of the dados.....( acl 24 st) would be good.
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After yesterday's work in Dayton I see this effort as more vital than before. I'm convinced that it might help identify additional markings if any are there and perhaps tell us more about what finishes, if any, were on the part originally, etc. All of which can help fingerprint 2-2-V-1 more strongly than we've been able to do so far.
I'll be sending a bit toward this effort - well worthwhile in my view.
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After yesterday's work in Dayton I see this effort as more vital than before. I'm convinced that it might help identify additional markings if any are there and perhaps tell us more about what finishes, if any, were on the part originally, etc. All of which can help fingerprint 2-2-V-1 more strongly than we've been able to do so far.
I'll be sending a bit toward this effort - well worthwhile in my view.
C'mon guys. We need more of you to follow Jeff Neville's example. Jeff Glickman will be doing the work here later this month. The rental of the unit, even at a 30% discount, is $1,000. Fundraising is always tough in August and it's a challenge just to meet operating costs. With the new Patch Hypothesis looking better and better the hyperspectral imaging work is more and more important - but it's hard to explain the need to the great unwashed (bless their hearts). The Forum understands how important this research is. We're counting on you. Won't you throw something in the hat? (http://tighar.org/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=43)
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Check will be inbound today.
LTM, who has seen plenty of spectral images,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
P.S. - if Gillespie's doing the cooking over Labor Day, does my donation count as hazardous duty pay?
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if Gillespie's doing the cooking over Labor Day, does my donation count as hazardous duty pay?
Charlie don't surf and Gillespie don't cook.
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A few figurative handfuls of pennies are on the way via PayPal :)
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I'm in via Paypal...
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My check goes out today.
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While the spotlight has understandably shifted to the Niku VIII funding campaign, has the Hyperspectral Imaging/ Jeff Glickman effort been fully funded?
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While the spotlight has understandably shifted to the Niku VIII funding campaign, has the Hyperspectral Imaging/ Jeff Glickman effort been fully funded?
Yes, fully funded. In fact, I'm sending them the check today.
A big Thank You to everyone who helped!
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Totally worth it. Now ... if I can just say those two words together without getting totally tang toungled ...
LTM, who knows a spectral image when he sees one,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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The hyperspectral imaging unit has arrived at TIGHAR HQ. Jeff arrives here tomorrow. We'll start the imaging of 2-2-V-1 on Thursday.
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Refreshingly positive news! Pins and needles my friends... :D
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Good luck to all and have a great conference and social event!!
Wish I could be there!
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Other than 2-2-V-1, are there any more items in the Tighar archives that might be candidates to try the hyperspectral image unit on?
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Other than 2-2-V-1, are there any more items in the Tighar archives that might be candidates to try the hyperspectral image unit on?
Indeed there are. We have several pieces of aluminum that are less distinctive than 2-2-V-1 but seem worthy of a hyperspectral look.
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Ric
Might be interesting to image some of the glassware, particularly the "compact mirror" to see what turns up. Have we ever been able to verify that there is or was silver / mirror on the glass?
Andrew
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Might be interesting to image some of the glassware, particularly the "compact mirror" to see what turns up. Have we ever been able to verify that there is or was silver / mirror on the glass?
Good idea. No, we've never found silvering but Tom King did an experiment that showed that silvering will weather off in a couple of years.
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Eager to hear the results. Thank you to all who donated to this.
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The technology and Jeff have arrived. Jetlag notwithstanding, Jeff has begun setting up the hyperspectral imager and calibrating the computer. He estimates it will take 4 to 6 hours to set up the system if things go smoothly. A full day if they don't.
The imager is the blue box on the tripod.
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I'm guessing closer to six if the the plug at the bottom of the photo remains unconnected..... ;D .....'cause that's the way my luck runs!
Best wishes!
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Doh!
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(http://cdn.gagbay.com/2014/08/is_it_plugged_in-490682.jpg)
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(http://cdn.gagbay.com/2014/08/is_it_plugged_in-490682.jpg)
Thanks, Bruce! I've been laughing steadily for three minutes. I resemble that remark! ;D
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The imager lens, it turns out, is not what you'd call wide angle. To get the entire artifact in the frame we had to change the orientation from vertical to horizontal. We're close to being able to acquire data but we need to talk to the technicians to sort out a couple of issues. We should be able to do that later this morning.
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Now up and running. First task: we're taking a close look at the "AD" and surrounding area.
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And the other "A" found at Dayton.
This is going to be good, regardless of how it turns out. We will know more.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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I read the general forum every day and a few weeks back I recall some guy posting a link w/ pics of ALCOA markings. His point apparently being AD eliminated the Miami patch. Ric's response was swift and stern (trollism) I understand why now. I was searching the web to see what others were saying and stumbled upon Gary Lapooks site. Good Lord the vitriol on display is shocking. I bring this up because I believe a poster admitted to trolling us w/ that link. I had to post my pro TIGHAR thoughts for all the good that will do. I read Tom King trying to debate on the merits w/ these guys and wow. Anyway, I do have a question. On that site someone said ALCOA was asked and said no way blah blah blah but as proof offered a link to aviation forum and a guy named Bob. I assume we did ask ALCOA but relevant detail has been lost over the years? What acceptable evidence are we looking for? Dated pictures? Some sort of technical manual? I live in Austin so 1930s commercial aviation literature isn't in abundance I wouldn't think. That said I do get around and willing to look if someone had thoughts on what look for.
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Doug
There seem to be a bunch of sites related to Gary, can you provide a link to the one you are referring to?
Thanks
Andrew
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On that site someone said ALCOA was asked and said no way blah blah blah but as proof offered a link to aviation forum and a guy named Bob.
Typical. Who wouldn't believe Bob?
I assume we did ask ALCOA but relevant detail has been lost over the years?
Not at all. Yes, we did ask ALCOA. We went to their Pittsburg research facility on December 3, 1996. That's when they cut those big chunks out of the artifact for metallurgical testing (ugh). We asked them about the AD and they told us that initially the company used the word Alclad on their sheet metal but later abbreviated it to Alc, so our piece of metal was definitely pre-war - but these guys were engineers, not historians. Were they right? Alclad was introduced in 1931. Did the early sheet have labeling like we see on the artifact? Was the patch made from sheet that had been around since before the word was abbreviated? Or were they wrong?
We thought we had matched the font to labeling that included ANA 13. They told us ANA 13 signified "reserve stock." That now appears to be incorrect. Bottom line: "Bob" is never an adequate source. He may be right and he may be wrong.
What acceptable evidence are we looking for? Dated pictures? Some sort of technical manual?
We're looking for official documents that specify how labeling on 24ST Alclad evolved. We need specific dates for when changes were made.
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Mr. Gillespie -
"Official Documents" rules me out somewhat. I don't have anybody in my family that worked for ALCOA and/or in the commercial aviation industry. I also live in Austin (but went to school in Tulsa where we did have a lot of aviation history). That said I am curious about this (AD) labeling issue and w/ all the recent publicity what are we looking for? In your opinion or others is this strictly esoteric material that a worker brought home and lost forever, or could it be in a shop book?
Andrew -
http://earharttruth.wordpress.com/2014/11/02/lapook-destroys-gillespies-latest-false-earhart-claim/comment-page-1/#comment-5077
I unfairly attributed to Lapook but to answer your ? May be in comments section (my bad).
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Is either in a ALCOA archive somewhere or may have been brought home by an employee is what l meant to say. If you could find it what would you be looking for?
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Thanks for that Doug
Interesting that as soon as you voice a dissenting opinion, Mike Campbell attacks you personally, as in:
"Either you can’t read and might be dyslexic, or you’re simply one of the many haters out there." Sheesh, talk about how to win friends and influence people, he definitely doesn't get it, and doesn't want to get it. Either you are with him, or against him, with no room for making up your own mind about "The TRUTH" (!).
But I agree, it is amazing to see the vitriol that is out there, most of it extremely ill informed about TIGHAR's work and inner workings.
Don't expect to change Mike's mind about anything, he's one of the few who in the face of a smoking gun artifact will continue to deny that the mystery has been solved, he's too invested in his own solution.
As the saying goes, never try to teach a pig to sing, it only wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Andrew
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What acceptable evidence are we looking for? Dated pictures? Some sort of technical manual?
"We're looking for official documents that specify how labeling on 24ST Alclad evolved. We need specific dates for when changes were made..."
Amen. The TIGHAR antagonists blithely and breathlessly cite personal observation, inference, and anecdote as "evidence" of their claims about Alcoa aircraft aluminum labeling in the 1930s. Their practice of repeatedly relying on those bogus metrics is indicative of their failure to understand what objective evidence is--a fact underscored by truly bizarre emotionalism, paranoid delusions of persecution, and devotion to conspiracy theories.
Nobody has yet produced source documentation delineating the answers to many, many open questions about said labeling practices. Not Gary La Pook. Not Mike Campbell. Not me. Not my Mom. Nobody.
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Whenever I venture out to some of the other Amelia Earhart sites I am always struck by the complete lack of facts discussed there. Just shouting 'buy my book to get the REAL facts' doesn't sound convincing nor ethical IMHO
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Amen to you both.
Well said, Mark.
It isn't that we don't realize the risk that 'A D' represents as a signature feature on 2-2-V-1, but that we have a need to find definitive information. We cannot toss a rare find aside as so much junk based on a smattering of pictures and a sound byte proclaiming that web site as an authority. A site clearly calculated to display those photos as 'evidence' - by an unknown author, I might add.
We sometimes get attacked about 'credibility'; where is the credibility of those who would disprove what we study? They never seem willing to acknowledge that TIGHAR has never shirked admitting when a failure of an article eventuates from her work, as painful as that can be.
So much discussion out there is indeed pure hip shot broadcast, and it is of course easy to criticize a bunch of nerds who are trying to painstakingly prove, or perhaps to our credit, disprove should that eventuate, the provenance of this item.
I also remain fascinated that one of the frequently underlying 'qualifications' for their view of our efforts is that we're crazy kool aid drinkers anyway, because anyone with any sense knows she can't be there because a) the navy looked in 1937 and didn't see her, and/or b) she's really at: fill in the blank, etc.
What fascinates me even more is how concerned many of them are with minding the business of those of us who are determined to wring dry whatever we can find at Niku out of a belief in it being a very strong candidate for Earhart's last arrival. They want 'truth', I'm told - but seemingly they'd bracket where and how we search for our own better good. I am even 'warned' of late by someone of a different search venue, via unsolicited email no less, that I should be 'very worried' due to my involvement here - isn't that nice?
As it happens, I voted this morning - and was reminded as I did so that this 'minding of others' is simply an ages-old human urge. It is along the same behavioral spectrum as 'road rage' when the emotions get into it. As has been said, no man's life, liberty or property is safe when the legislature is in session...
I think we should simply carry on.
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TECTIC - The Earhart Conspiracy Theory Industrial Complex - can be an awesome force to behold, as can the mind of any conspiracy buff.
What fascinates me the most about the Earhart and Noonan mystery is the astonishing level of passion it excites in some people. Amelia and Fred vanished almost eight decades ago ... and still, the mere mention of her name can ignite the fiercest of debates.
I'm sticking with TIGHAR because it is following the facts and the evidence, regardless of where they might lead. That is the course that will, eventually, lead to closure for Amelia and Fred. After more than 70 years, they deserve that much.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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Absolutely it is fascinating, as a true-life mystery that seems about to be solved. Monroe Losner, a gentlemen who told me he was happy to be reading about us, told me how he was present in Miami to watch Amelia's take-off. He said he also went to high school with Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the Enola Gay. Wow, what history!
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Absolutely it is fascinating, as a true-life mystery that seems about to be solved. Monroe Losner, a gentlemen who told me he was happy to be reading about us, told me how he was present in Miami to watch Amelia's take-off. He said he also went to high school with Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the Enola Gay. Wow, what history!
Ask your friend Monroe, if he's still with us, if he noticed the patch or anything else odd about the Electra.
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Was he old enough to perhaps take a picture?
Ted Campbell
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Yes, he's 96 now, and I'll try to get details for us. He lives in the Atlanta area now.
--Lauren
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Lauren Palmer,
So do I live in the Atlanta area, if he wants to get together sometime.
Ted Campbell
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Yes, he's 96 now, and I'll try to get details for us. He lives in the Atlanta area now.
--Lauren
At age 96, Monroe Losner would have been born about 1918. In 1937 he would have been 19. And in 1944 he would have been 26 years old ... and an article ("Veterans' Morale Praised By Officers") (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2206&dat=19441126&id=pCsyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jecFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6295,2792757) in the Miami Daily News (granted, it isn't the Miami Herald) has a picture of Monroe Losner with the following text:
Pfc. Monroe Losner, 26, former employee of the Miami Daily News circulation department, is home on furlough after 31 months overseas.
Maybe Monroe might have known, and remember the name of, the Miami Herald photographer that day!
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Cool stuff.
Talk about 'hyperspectral imaging' possibilities...
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Indeed ... the possibilities. Never know what you're going to find in an old photo, or even when an old photo might turn up.
And that's all I've got to say about that.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP