TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Artifact Analysis => Topic started by: Mark Pearce on March 08, 2014, 10:09:27 PM

Title: The Dado
Post by: Mark Pearce on March 08, 2014, 10:09:27 PM
Has the Sydney Island C-47 crash been ruled out as a likely source for the dado?

Some type of fabric was riveted to the piece. and the write up at the bottom here mentions "the famous dark green (Skyfelt or Seapak) that was seen in many military aircraft during world war two."

Decent photos at the link just below- of the ca. 1944 C-47 in the Alberta Aviation Museum-  show many areas lined with this material.  This may be the only C-47 with an original interior. 

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/23736/index.html

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/43_DadoPart1/43_Dado1.html
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Ric Gillespie on March 09, 2014, 08:27:17 AM
Has the Sydney Island C-47 crash been ruled out as a likely source for the dado?

Some type of fabric was riveted to the piece. and the write up at the bottom here mentions "the famous dark green (Skyfelt or Seapak) that was seen in many military aircraft during world war two."


The introduction to that Research Bulletin written by the late Frank Lombardo cautions that it contains some errors.  The fragment of fabric found on the artifact (and unfortunately later lost by the NTSB Lab) was blue, not green.

And of course we have since realized that the artifact is not a"dado" at all. It appears to have been an insulated free-standing structure nailed to a wooden surface. We think it may have been a heat shield.  See The Un-Dados (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2004Vol_20/undados.pdf) and Detective Story (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2006Vol_22/detective.pdf)

I'm aware of no such structures in a C-47.
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on March 21, 2014, 07:09:32 PM
Given the confirmed B-24 related remnants already found on Gardner, I keep coming back to the C-87 44-23903 (which of course was a B-24 transport variant made on same production line) that crashed off Canton Island as a possible source for the dado/heat shield or whatever the thing is.

I think its largely because of the fabric fragment and the C-87 in this crash being in personnel carrying mode and likely finished inside to a degree not seen in a regular B-24 (was carrying 5 crew and 16 passengers)
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19430207-3

Various photos of C-87 here: http://www.sandiegoairandspace.org/collections/collection_index.php?id=3
added Mar 22 - photos mentioned in link immediately above available here: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=consolidated%20c-87

A couple interior shots from above link attached

P.S. C-87 has a bunch of side windows not present in B-24 that could also be a source of the Plexiglas fragment I s'pose....
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on March 22, 2014, 07:09:19 AM
Follow-up:
The number 44-23903 for this C-87 fits in the production run amongst conventional B-24D numbers:

B-24D list here  http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b24_9.html
C-87 list here  http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b24_26.html

So the C-87 may also be the most likely source of the bookcase found on Gardner which carried a B-24D part number

As discussed here (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,390.0.html) the parties to the discussion in the string were only considering the B-24J wreck at Canton which probably "wouldn't/shouldn't" have the D version bookcase
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Ric Gillespie on March 22, 2014, 08:06:40 AM
So the C-87 may also be the most likely source of the bookcase found on Gardner which carried a B-24D part number

As discussed here (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,390.0.html) the parties to the discussion in the string were only considering the B-24J wreck at Canton which probably "wouldn't/shouldn't" have the D version bookcase

That's an excellent observation Doug.  How much do we know about the C-87 loss at Canton? (Sorry, I've lost track of where it was mentioned). I don't think there is a surviving example of a C-87.  If there was, somebody would have "restored" it as a B-24.  C-87s are max un-sexy.  However, the Air Force Museum has a B-24D we can look at.
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on March 22, 2014, 08:21:18 AM
Ric, should be able to find out a fair bit about the C-87 loss as Tighar appears to hold a copy of the 20 page crash investigation report.

http://tighar.org/wiki/Kanton_(Canton)_Island

Any chance of finding that and posting? (I hope your filing system isn't like mine ie a big pile)
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Ric Gillespie on March 22, 2014, 08:41:56 AM
Ric, should be able to find out a fair bit about the C-87 loss as Tighar appears to hold a copy of the 20 page crash investigation report.

http://tighar.org/wiki/Kanton_(Canton)_Island

Any chance of finding that and posting? (I hope your filing system isn't like mine ie a big pile)

That's the problem with a 25 year project.  You collect tons of material because it may come in useful some day, then you forget you have it.  I did find the report.  I'll scan it and post it when I get time but, basically, the plane flew into the ocean during a night approach, apparently because they didn't have a current altimeter setting. The C-87 hit the water "about one mile to one mile and a half out from the reef."  It sank "immediately" and was never recovered. (The water that far out would be thousands of feet deep.) Only three of the twenty-one people aboard were thrown clear and survived.  The rest went down with the plane.  The co-pilot was one of the survivors.  He said the airspeed was 130 mph on the approach.

Based on the accident report, I doubt that any part of the plane ever ended up on Canton, let alone Gardner.
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on March 22, 2014, 09:50:35 AM
Thanks Ric, I had seen a mention somewhere here that the C-87 in question sank quickly but what I'm wondering about really is:
quoting myself

Quote
Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1

« Reply #605 on: March 18, 2014, 08:48:07 AM »
- B-24's seem to be noted as likely to break apart in a predictable pattern notably immediately aft of the wings
in shall we say off-nominal landings/ditchings (ie Atka Island, Lady Be Good)

- If the C-87 broke up in the usual fashion, could the now exposed interior side of a section of 0.032 skin be exposed
to hydraulic forces (ie impact with water) that might provide similar features to 2-2-v-1?

- Accident report may note note how/if plane broke up

- Not sure about bouyancy but if there were attached empty o2 tanks in the area as in a B-24 or other floatables, who
knows what was recovered when the survivors were picked up or what washed ashore later...


Thinking if this C-87 had the "fancy" interior (including Kapok insulation which I assume to be buoyant ie life preserver?) and if it broke up in the usual fashion, there is at least a good possibility, maybe even likelyhood for "floaters" with relatively light bits and pieces of structure or interior fixtures attached.

I think one of the photos in the link above shows the nav station and it appears to be just ahead of the cargo bay/passenger compartmentimmediately in front of the wings...so bookcase may have been in general area of where fuselage break up may have happened (if it did in fact break up)

All just hypothetical for discussion of course

I also have an anecdotal only reference to another C-87 loss at Canton, in 1945 I think, will find that and post
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Mark Pearce on March 22, 2014, 10:02:54 AM
If Craig Fuller still provides these WW2 accident reports to Tighar, maybe he can find the full report on the B-17E that crashed on Canton Island, June 22, 1942.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Highlights1_20/highlights2.html

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=97341
Date: 22-JUN-1942
Type: Boeing B-17E Flying Fortress
Owner/operator: United States Army Air Force (USAAF)
Registration: 41-9208

Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location: Short of Rwy, Canton Island, PAC -    Pacific Ocean 
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on March 22, 2014, 10:56:31 AM
Quote
I also have an anecdotal only reference to another C-87 loss at Canton, in 1945 I think, will find that and post

The other C-87 loss at Canton mentioned was apparently on May 10/44

http://books.google.ca/books?id=YbefAXLgqbMC&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=c-87+liberator+canton&source=bl&ots=8Pf69EOdAy&sig=n3lVpG9YPOa57vaJYtKQll_d5fg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qL4tU5hZhL2qAZbBgbgB&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=c-87%20liberator%20canton&f=false

Maybe we can find independent confirmation of that loss
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on March 22, 2014, 02:23:08 PM
Date: 22-JUN-1942
Type: Boeing B-17E Flying Fortress
Owner/operator: United States Army Air Force (USAAF)
Registration: 41-9208
Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location: Short of Rwy, Canton Island, PAC -    Pacific Ocean

If this is the correct identification of the B-17 in question Mark then I recall a few months back seeing a photograph of it at Hickam Field. It had a chequered career including a previous crash at Port Moresby I think. I'll go through the archives later to see what I can dig up.
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on March 22, 2014, 07:30:13 PM
This is a photograph of the B-17E 41-9208 which crashed short of the runway on the approach to canton.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kemon01/11660204353/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kemon01/11660204353/)

"In the foreground is Boeing B-17E Fortress 41-9208, which was delivered on May 20, 1942 and was assigned to the 19th BG at Hickham, Hawaii on June 7, 1942. It crashed on take-off at Port Moresby on September 19, 1942 and was reportedly salvaged."

The date we have for the crash at Canton is given as 22nd June 1942 so the "crashed on take-off at Port Moresby on September 19, 1942 and was reportedly salvaged." seems inaccurate but warrants further investigation. Anyway here's the photo...



Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on March 22, 2014, 08:03:34 PM
Stranger and stranger. From the book "B-17 Flying Fortress Units of the Pacific War By Martin W. Bowman"

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ajQgDfPxKYYC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=B-17E+41-9208&source=bl&ots=z3BwokeECO&sig=z1tCkhO_a8abDAs4tqtn6_H49Jg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hDouU8TFCsyYhQfP5IGQAQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=B-17E%2041-9208&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ajQgDfPxKYYC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=B-17E+41-9208&source=bl&ots=z3BwokeECO&sig=z1tCkhO_a8abDAs4tqtn6_H49Jg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hDouU8TFCsyYhQfP5IGQAQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=B-17E%2041-9208&f=false)

An interesting aerial photograph of the USAAF bombing the runway at Lae if you scroll down as well.

"A rare Douglas DC-5 transport departs port Moresby on 19th august 1942 while B-17s 41-9208 (foreground) and 41-2659 Frank Buck 'Bring Em' Back Alive' of the 28th BS/19th BG are prepared for their next mission. 41-9208 crashed on take-off from Port Moresby on 19th September 1942 and as wrecked.

Same photograph as previous post, same date for crash, 19th September 1942, same place Port Moresby, one claims it was salvaged one claims it was wrecked (beyond repair?).
Point is, it was supposed to have crashed at Canton Island on 22nd June 1942, 3 months prior to these claims of a crash on 19th September 1942 and, the photo being taken on 19th August 1942. Something amiss here?

Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Mark Pearce on March 22, 2014, 08:09:04 PM
Very interesting Jeff.  As in the case of the 'Japanese Mavis,' it appears we have another mystery that needs to be cleared up!  Thanks for looking into this. 
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Brad Beeching on March 22, 2014, 08:40:34 PM
As far as B-24's are concerned, I believe the Commemorative Air Force's B-24 "Diamond Lil" started life as an LB-30/C87. They may have documentation that may prove useful...
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on March 23, 2014, 06:40:10 AM
According to the Fortress Master Log 41-9208 crash landed on Canton 22/06/1942 then, crashed on take-off at Port Moresby 19/09/1942. Which implies that either the records are wrong or, it was repaired.

http://www.91stbombardmentgroup.com/Aircraft%20ID/FORTLOG.pdf (http://www.91stbombardmentgroup.com/Aircraft%20ID/FORTLOG.pdf)
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on March 23, 2014, 06:29:17 PM
re the B-24 propensity to break up, here's a controlled ditching test of a specially prepared airframe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSDa9z4kdOg

Crew must have had 'nads the size of Gardner Island coconuts.....(can I say 'nads on the forum? I guess will find out)

I know C-87 (B-24D) crash at Canton wasn't exactly a controlled ditching but there are still parallels...

Quote
Thinking if this C-87 had the "fancy" interior (including Kapok insulation which I assume to be buoyant ie life preserver?) and if it broke up in the usual fashion, there is at least a good possibility, maybe even likelyhood for "floaters" with relatively light bits and pieces of structure or interior fixtures attached.

I think one of the photos in the link above shows the nav station and it appears to be just ahead of the cargo bay/passenger compartment immediately in front of the wings...so bookcase may have been in general area of where fuselage break up may have happened (if it did in fact break up)


Note that the fuselage fractured right through where the nav station would be in a C-87 and actually looks to be very close to complete detachment...will be interesting to see crash report 

Lots of random torn skin pieces hanging off also
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: C.W. Herndon on March 23, 2014, 08:14:45 PM
According to the Fortress Master Log 41-9208 crash landed on Canton 22/06/1942 then, crashed on take-off at Port Moresby 19/09/1942. Which implies that either the records are wrong or, it was repaired.

http://www.91stbombardmentgroup.com/Aircraft%20ID/FORTLOG.pdf (http://www.91stbombardmentgroup.com/Aircraft%20ID/FORTLOG.pdf)

According to the records that I have, found here,  (http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafserials.html) the entry below was the fate of B-17E 41-9208. There is no mention of any further happenings.
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on March 24, 2014, 10:16:19 AM
Thanks Woody, that's  the same date and location. The mystery is the reported crash on approach to Canton Island in June of the same year for this plane.
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on March 26, 2014, 07:02:49 PM
Re Mark's lead-in on this tread, don't know if this photo color is "off" but remnants of material on bulkhead of this discombobulated C-47 appear blue...

http://www.questmasters.us/C-47A_43-15137_Page_2.html

Of course no idea if original material but looks old ;)

Interesting story anyway
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on March 28, 2014, 09:38:31 PM
More blue material in a C-47?

http://www.oldwings.nl/content/c47_yic/c47.htm

Magnified fragment from dado/heatshield/whatever-it-is
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on March 30, 2014, 09:43:14 PM
Looks like a possible "dado" in this C-47...plywood floor and everything

http://www.propellor.tv/C47%20nosesection.html
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on April 01, 2014, 07:11:54 PM
More ramblings regarding the dado/heat shield in attached pdf

(Did that way to get around attachment limit)

Bottom line, to answer Mark's query at start of thread, I don't think the Sydney Island C-47 can be eliminated as a source
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Mark Pearce on April 01, 2014, 07:44:13 PM
More ramblings regarding the dado/heat shield in attached pdf

(Did that way to get around attachment limit)

Bottom line, to answer Mark's query at start of thread, I don't think the Sydney Island C-47 can be eliminated as a source

Very interesting Doug!  Many thanks for taking the time to look into this.  DC-3/C-47 parts dealers might be able to give a definitive answer.
 
http://www.centercomp.com/dc3/17.html

http://aeromarineair.com/PARTS_for_SALE.php
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Monty Fowler on April 02, 2014, 06:39:17 AM
Bottom line, to answer Mark's query at start of thread, I don't think the Sydney Island C-47 can be eliminated as a source

The C-47 kick panel has paint on at least one side of it, appears to be olive drab. If that was the case with the C-47 that crashed on Sydney Island, it has nothing to do with the putative dados from Nikumaroro, which appear to be unpainted metal. Unless someone wants to front the costs for a paint residue analysis?

LTM, who finds dry paint really interesting these days,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: JNev on April 02, 2014, 06:52:14 AM
Bottom line, to answer Mark's query at start of thread, I don't think the Sydney Island C-47 can be eliminated as a source

The C-47 kick panel has paint on at least one side of it, appears to be olive drab. If that was the case with the C-47 that crashed on Sydney Island, it has nothing to do with the putative dados from Nikumaroro, which appear to be unpainted metal. Unless someone wants to front the costs for a paint residue analysis?

LTM, who finds dry paint really interesting these days,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

Maybe the dado is a good candidate to pull into the hyperspectral analysis effort?  I don't know for certain but have some idea that that process might reveal things about paint, dyes and etchings, pitting relevant to same, etc.
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on April 02, 2014, 09:33:17 AM
Quote
Maybe the dado is a good candidate to pull into the hyperspectral analysis effort?  I don't know for certain but have some idea that that process might reveal things about paint, dyes and etchings, pitting relevant to same, etc.

Good thought Jeff, caveat being that testing for presence of paint may not result in a useful data point either way since the C-47 parts list does show five different possible part numbers and I doubt it could be determined which version was on the Sydney C-47.  i.e. we don't know (yet anyway) if all versions of C-47 kickplate were painted.  Testing would no doubt still be enlightening though...

My purpose in posting on this thread has been to test the notion (espoused in post 2 on page 1) that the only reasonable source for a dado-like appurtenance with a blue material remnant attached is a Lockheed Electra.  I think the desired point has been made and I trust will be given fair consideration.


Next tangent: Despite the above, I'm not necessarily convinced that the artifact is a C-47 kickplate or a heat shield or whatever simply because its construction doesn't make sense...why would the thing be built so elaborately, ie with micarta electrical insulation between pieces if the intent was anything other than to isolate parts of it electrically.  Could it be somehow related to aircraft radio componentry, cases or installation racks?  Maybe even Coast Guard LORAN or communication radio equipment, disposal of which seems to be undocumented.

Preceding paragraph assumes that the statements about the micarta insulation in Tighar article are factual and not part of what is foot noted as inaccuracy in the article. http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/43_DadoPart1/43_Dado1.html

Also, if just a heat shield, why not just use one piece and bend a 90 on a sheet metal brake rather than build from two pieces
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on April 23, 2014, 11:03:52 AM
Perhaps for discussion...would a vertical heat shield even fit in the available space between heat duct and tank?

Crude Photoshop markup suggests maybe not (lots of caveats of course in that I haven't corrected for scale or view angle).  Maybe someone with better photo skills can find a fit.
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Doug Ledlie on April 24, 2014, 10:36:54 AM
Follow-up to previous...
Title: Re: The Dado
Post by: Gatorman9 on February 12, 2015, 04:05:27 PM
Ric, the Commemorative (formerly, Confederate) Air Force has a C-87 (name:  "Diamond Lil") which is painted like a B-24 but still has its passenger compartment and windows rather than a bomb bay.  It's been extensively restored over the years and I have no idea if its present condition would help you answer your question.