TIGHAR
Historic Aircraft Recovery and Preservation => War / Service Related Aircraft topics => Topic started by: Ric Gillespie on March 02, 2014, 07:05:15 AM
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We have the following inquiry from "Glenn" (no surname)
"40 years ago I was given a WWII flight jacket. I would like to get it back to the family whose grand or great grand farther who earned it. The aircraft was called Chatterbox and the airman nickname was Blackie. Can you help me find them."
A noble gesture but a seemingly impossible task unless the Chatterbox nose art was photographed and included in one of the books on the subject.
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Pacific Wrecks notes this loss
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b-25/41-13088/chatter-box-nose.html#axzz2uotfBJRW
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(http://static.awm.gov.au/images/collection/items/ACCNUM_SCREEN/OG0015.JPG)
"Australian and American crew pose with B-25C "Chatter Box" 41-13088 parked at Port Moresby
(Left to right) RAAF Sgt E. McCarthy, SSgt J. M. Hume USAAF top turret gunner, F/Sgt Ivan Wilkinson, Co-Pilot Lt. Edward T. Slomon, USAAF, SSgt Herbert W. Divers, USAAF
Credit: RAAF via AWM OG0015 Date: c1943"
(from same website as above)
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B-17 named "Chatterbox" interned in Switzerland listed here
http://swissinternees.tripod.com/aircraft.html
and one named "Chatterbox!"here (different one -lost)
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/rG4PI_AFW0Y
A picture of the B-17 interned in Switzerland named Chatterbox on page 69 in the book Clark Gable in Pictures (http://books.google.com/books?id=Hjvqp_Y2VL4C&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=42-31899+b-17&source=bl&ots=_JRHvuE-nh&sig=RH-YRJGg8-gVNN5oo2SS9cTdb3Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DY8TU6_hEIPU2AWYvYHwAQ&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=42-31899%20b-17&f=false)
42-31899 noted as being in 510 squadron in 351 bomber group
Crew search for that plane here
http://www.351st.org/loadlist/search.php
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Interned in Switzerland B-17 Chatterbox crew list...
http://www.351st.org/loadlist/search.php?type=m&mission=133&ac=42-31899 (http://www.351st.org/loadlist/search.php?type=m&mission=133&ac=42-31899)
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A reference to a B-17 crew member nickname 'Blackie' appears in the best seller A Higher Call: The Incredible True Story of Heroism and Chivalry during the Second World War
"Five days before Christmas 1943, a badly damaged American bomber struggled to fly over wartime Germany. At its controls was a twenty-one-year-old pilot. Half his crew lay wounded or dead. Suddenly a German Messerschmitt fighter pulled up on the bomber's tail - the German pilot was an ace, a man able to destroy the American bomber with the squeeze of a trigger. This is the true story of the two pilots whose lives collided in the skies that day - the American - 2nd Lieutenant Charlie Brown and the German - 2nd Lieutenant Franz Stigler."
The German fighter pilot escorted the badly damaged B-17 out to the North Sea.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DjUUAAAAQBAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DjUUAAAAQBAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s)
The bomb group isn't the one which B-17 'chatterbox' was part of though, the 351st bomb group. The 'Blackie' mentioned in the book flew with the 379th bomb group B-17s. Still, their bases here in England were very close together and, its a lead worth following up. Plus the added bonus of the crew describing how they decorated their crew jackets because every other bomb group had done so. Now, who is this 'Blackie' character?
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“Ye Olde Pub” crew:
Back row, L-R:
S/Sgt Bertrand O.Coulombe, Engineer/Top Turret Gunner, Sgt Alex Yelesanko, Left Waist, Sgt Richard A. Pechout, Radio Operator; Sgt Lloyd H. Jennings, Right Waist; S/Sgt Hugh S. Eckenrode, Tail Gunner; Sgt Samuel W. Blackford, Ball Turret
Front row, L-R:
2nd Lt Charles L. Brown, Pilot; 2nd Lt Spencer G. Luke, Co-Pilot; 2nd Lt Albert Sadok, Navigator;
2nd Lt Robert M. Andrews, Bombardier
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Appears then that possibilities exist for both the Pacific (B-25) and European (B-17) theatres. I ponder if there is anything more to be learned from the flight jacket itself that would point to one or the other. Were jacket manufacturers, styles and/or "weight" consistent between theatres and/or aircraft. I suppose given the significant difference (per wikipedia anyway) in max ceilings between the B-25 and B-17, that the B-25 might might not "need" as heavy a jacket...Dunno
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Appears then that possibilities exist for both the Pacific (B-25) and European (B-17) theatres. I ponder if there is anything more to be learned from the flight jacket itself that would point to one or the other. Were jacket manufacturers, styles and/or "weight" consistent between theatres and/or aircraft. I suppose given the significant difference (per wikipedia anyway) in max ceilings between the B-25 and B-17, that the B-25 might might not "need" as heavy a jacket...Dunno
Good point Doug, maybe some markings on the jacket may help? I have a description of what the 'ye olde pub' crew had on theirs.
Incidentally, the ball turret gunner on 'ye olde pub' B-17, Sgt Samuel W. Blackford, Ball Turret, his nickname? Blackie.
I'll post the crew group photo later.
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Maybe "Blackie" was first of the 351st with intent for "Chatter Box", and later of the 379th and "Ye Olde Pub"... the proximity raises some possibilities.
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Maybe "Blackie" was first of the 351st with intent for "Chatter Box", and later of the 379th and "Ye Olde Pub"... the proximity raises some possibilities.
Yes that's one possibility Jeff. Another is that some aircraft were flown with composite crews, guys that had one or two missions left before rotating back home to the USA. The crew members would meet up for the first time for these missions. Might explain why one of the crew members from 'Chatterbox', the plane that was interned in Switzerland couldn't, only days later, remember the names of some of the crew he flew with on that mission.
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And just to add more to the mystery Jeff, there was another B-17 named 'Chatterbox II'. Even more avenues to explore :-\
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'Ye Olde pub' crew members
Sgt Samuel W. 'Blackie' Blackford, Ball Turret...
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Good get.
Dan Brown, #2408
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To do a crew search for the different crews for each mission 42-31899 flew, use the crew search link in reply 3. Click aircraft search. Enter 42-31899. Click on mission number
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To do a crew search for the different crews for each mission 42-31899 flew, use the crew search link in reply 3. Click aircraft search. Enter 42-31899. Click on mission number
Thanks Greg
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Any idea what size the jacket is? Ball turret gunner's had to be small, as can be seen in the photo that Jeff posted above.
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The clues may be with the jacket itself. Any information regarding the manufacturer, date, labels, markings, size, damage, where it was handed over and by whom etc... might help to determine the theatre of war, Europe, Pacific, Far East therefore narrowing down the search.
We already have one candidate:
'Ye Olde pub' crew members
Sgt Samuel W. 'Blackie' Blackford, Ball Turret...
But there are many others, example:
"John L. "Blackie" Porter — a former stunt pilot — is credited with commanding the first organized air rescue unit in the theater. Known as "Blackie's Gang" and flying out of Chabua, India, they were equipped with two C-47 aircraft. One of their first rescue missions was the recovery of twenty people who had bailed out of a stricken C-46 in August 1943 in the Naga area of Burma"
Every little bit of information helps
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Here's another possible tangent for the current jacket holder to consider...using the crew search at the link given earlier for 351st "load list", I find a John R White who is noted on two missions on 42-102955 (Chatterbox II). Given that nicknames are often ironic/opposite (ie a tall guy gets "Shorty" or a fat guy gets "Slim") I could see a reasonable possibility for a guy with the surname White to get tagged as "Blackie".
Just a thought if other leads don't pan out
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I am a son of Reed Moulton who was the Tail Gunner on Chatterbox he was interned in Switzerland and know many of the relatives of Vee Taylor also interned in Switzerland and whom exscaped together in December of 1944. They are both deceased. Vee did a project with one of grand children that was very detailed and maybe that recording will mention Blackie. I am trying to get that recording as I am going to Switzerland in a few weeks to see Dubendorf, Adolboden, and Wengen. And if time permits Polbrook area in England.
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I am a son of Reed Moulton who was the Tail Gunner on Chatterbox he was interned in Switzerland and know many of the relatives of Vee Taylor also interned in Switzerland and whom exscaped together in December of 1944. They are both deceased. Vee did a project with one of grand children that was very detailed and maybe that recording will mention Blackie. I am trying to get that recording as I am going to Switzerland in a few weeks to see Dubendorf, Adolboden, and Wengen. And if time permits Polbrook area in England.
We're not getting anywhere trying to match the name 'Blackie' to any of the crew of your fathers B-17 Jim. Good luck with tracking down the recording and if you make it to Polbrook, welcome to the UK.
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I don't expect this is your answer if your person was flying in a WW II bomber overseas, but my father was a Navy pilot named Blackie, flying out of the U.S. He came home with his flight jacket (dark leather, fur collar, waist length) and I wore it for many years with his permission. He was flying amphibious multi-engine planes (PBY?) along the U.S. Gulf coast mostly, seeking subs as I recall. Maybe this will only serve to eliminate one more pilot nicknamed Blackie from your search. He crop dusted for a few years in NE Arkansas after the war, then practiced law until his death in 1981. I also use the nickname Blackie. I am Calon E. Blackburn, Jr. Let me know if you need any further info.