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Author Topic: Norwich City  (Read 54304 times)

Monty Fowler

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2011, 05:24:36 PM »

Heath, about the teeth, if I remember correctly, there is no definitive data about what teeth remained in the skull but it is assumed they were molars since those teeth tend to "grip" the jaw surfaces better due to their construction. The other teeth don't really have much to hold them in place once everything dries out, if the adjacent structures are subject to a lot of stresses, say, being dragged along a few yards of coral rubble by an energetic coconut crab ...

LTM, who still has ALL his original teeth,
Monty Fowler
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2011, 02:59:18 PM »

... since I found this on the City of Southampton website, that perhaps this site only had wreck reports for ships whose hailing port was Southampton.

If record-keeping goes by "hailing port" (?), then perhaps what you need are the records for the Port of Bideford.  From the wiki article:




If only i'd been online the last few days and seen this i'd have popped into the harbour masters office and asked if they had such records!

Next time i'm visiting family i'll let you know and if you want anything asking about the Norwich city in Bideford i'll gladly ask  :)
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Erik

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2011, 09:00:00 AM »

Jeff, Gary, and others...

I found an interesting book called Beyond the Harbour Lights.  Chapter 13 is titled "Hardship on Gardner Island".  Click Here
and then click on Page 74 to read the article.


In the book I found some tidbits I haven't seen mentioned before (not that it matters a whole lot):
  • Black rats were on the island.
  • The captain was actually washed overboard.
  • Admission of failure to obtain celestial navigation with overcast skys.

The Norwich City article indicates 14 crewmen died and 11 were never found (EDIT: sorry, I misread the Norwich City article about the number of victims. This should say 11 died. Now I am unclear on the number who were never found since the text is somewhat confusing: "Three crewmen whose bodies washed ashore on Gardner Island were buried; the steward first, the fireman who was trapped under the lifeboat was buried toward evening, and later, the carpenter. The remainder of the eleven men lost were never found." I missed the word "remainder" in my original comment and think this quote means 8 victims were lost without trace.)

Has the possibility been considered that the skeleton at the 7 Site may have been one of them? Maybe the fellow found his way ashore in too delirious a state to meet up with the others during the rescue. Perhaps far fetched but these are potential castaways.

I've also heard a critic of TIGHAR claim that visitors to Gardner after the ship grounding found the shore "littered with bones" from the lost 11 crewman. I've never seen this information in any independent source. Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
I'm still very curious to the fate of the remaining eight sailors too.  It looks obvious that three of the bodies were found and buried right there on site.  But, if I recall correctly, I remember reading (or on a map) that bones were found on the south-western side of the island.  Eight sailors' bodies missing - one of them is certainly possible could have washed ashores somewhere else.  What happened to these bones?  It's even possible that one of them may have actually made it alive.  From the book: "Half-drowned, he staggered along the stony beach conscious of other bedraggled figures around him."  How about a lone survivor in similare or more dire situtation.  Lost?  Not finding the rest of the party?

I was disappointed that the documents on TIGHAR did not have the Board's conclusion on the cause of the grounding, and assignment of responsibility for it.
In the book, the captain admits (even though it's not an official Board's conclusion), a contributing cause was certainly the overcast sky and failure to navigate using celestial observations.  "Overcast skies made celestial observations impossible and, with no land in sight, there was no way of establishing the vessels's position. By Friday, 29th November Captain Hamer was navigating by dead reckoning which as best could be described as educated guesswork."
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2011, 11:19:01 AM »

Thanks Erik, nice read.  didn't see 'black Rats' mentioned, just Rats and if you read the info TIGHER has on the wreck you will find out that it was already known about the captain being washed overboard.

Nice to see the Dog got to the island, hope it got off as well.

Interesting that they claim to have found a hole with water.  expect it was just a depression that collected rain water from the storm.

How British that tea was being served as the ship went up in flames.  I'll crock my pinkie to the crew of the Norwich city  :D
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2011, 12:59:47 PM »


By going to the Ameliapedia, then Technical Papers, then The Wreck Of The Norwich City by Janet Powell, she states that the three bodies ( the Steward, a Fireman, and the Carpenter) were "...recovered and afforded a burial on the beach(emphasis mine, hjh).  It's not a stretch to believe that the action of the surf, wind, storms, etc might uncover those bones and leave the beach "littered with bones" that might then be noticed by visitors to the island.
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2011, 01:46:34 PM »

Jeff, Gary, and others...

I found an interesting book called Beyond the Harbour Lights.  Chapter 13 is titled "Hardship on Gardner Island".  Click Here
and then click on Page 74 to read the article.


In the book I found some tidbits I haven't seen mentioned before (not that it matters a whole lot):
  • Black rats were on the island.
  • The captain was actually washed overboard.
  • Admission of failure to obtain celestial navigation with overcast skys.

The Norwich City article indicates 14 crewmen died and 11 were never found (EDIT: sorry, I misread the Norwich City article about the number of victims. This should say 11 died. Now I am unclear on the number who were never found since the text is somewhat confusing: "Three crewmen whose bodies washed ashore on Gardner Island were buried; the steward first, the fireman who was trapped under the lifeboat was buried toward evening, and later, the carpenter. The remainder of the eleven men lost were never found." I missed the word "remainder" in my original comment and think this quote means 8 victims were lost without trace.)

Has the possibility been considered that the skeleton at the 7 Site may have been one of them? Maybe the fellow found his way ashore in too delirious a state to meet up with the others during the rescue. Perhaps far fetched but these are potential castaways.

I've also heard a critic of TIGHAR claim that visitors to Gardner after the ship grounding found the shore "littered with bones" from the lost 11 crewman. I've never seen this information in any independent source. Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
I'm still very curious to the fate of the remaining eight sailors too.  It looks obvious that three of the bodies were found and buried right there on site.  But, if I recall correctly, I remember reading (or on a map) that bones were found on the south-western side of the island.  Eight sailors' bodies missing - one of them is certainly possible could have washed ashores somewhere else.  What happened to these bones?  It's even possible that one of them may have actually made it alive.  From the book: "Half-drowned, he staggered along the stony beach conscious of other bedraggled figures around him."  How about a lone survivor in similare or more dire situtation.  Lost?  Not finding the rest of the party?

I was disappointed that the documents on TIGHAR did not have the Board's conclusion on the cause of the grounding, and assignment of responsibility for it.
In the book, the captain admits (even though it's not an official Board's conclusion), a contributing cause was certainly the overcast sky and failure to navigate using celestial observations.  "Overcast skies made celestial observations impossible and, with no land in sight, there was no way of establishing the vessels's position. By Friday, 29th November Captain Hamer was navigating by dead reckoning which as best could be described as educated guesswork."
Thanks for finding that, it was well worth reading.

One thing it made me think about, the survivors built a bonfire and lit it when the rescue ships came into view. Why didn't Earhart light a similar bonfire when the planes were flying over the island so that the smoke and fire could have been easily seen.

gl
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Erik

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2011, 02:04:05 PM »

One thing it made me think about, the survivors built a bonfire and lit it when the rescue ships came into view. Why didn't Earhart light a similar bonfire when the planes were flying over the island so that the smoke and fire could have been easily seen.

Some people think she did.  Did you read about the Ring of Fire?
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Erik

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2011, 02:32:07 PM »

By going to the Ameliapedia, then Technical Papers, then The Wreck Of The Norwich City by Janet Powell, she states that the three bodies ( the Steward, a Fireman, and the Carpenter) were "...recovered and afforded a burial on the beach(emphasis mine, hjh).  It's not a stretch to believe that the action of the surf, wind, storms, etc might uncover those bones and leave the beach "littered with bones" that might then be noticed by visitors to the island.
Here is another newspaper account of the drowned victims and burials - at the end of the article.   I wonder how they knew for sure that all 11 perished - as opposed to some of them surviving for some time?

Thanks Erik, nice read.  didn't see 'black Rats' mentioned, just Rats and if you read the info TIGHER has on the wreck you will find out that it was already known about the captain being washed overboard.
The 'black rats' was actually from another newspaper article - sorry.  Does 'black' have any significance that may worth pursuing?  If so, can we post a snippet of copyright material?

Quote
Nice to see the Dog got to the island, hope it got off as well.
I noticed that too.  I'll bet the dog was thirsty - hovering over the reef water just wishing : )

Quote
Interesting that they claim to have found a hole with water.  expect it was just a depression that collected rain water from the storm.
Actually, this link says they found a small lake.

Quote
How British that tea was being served as the ship went up in flames.  I'll crock my pinkie to the crew of the Norwich city  :D
Now, thats funny!  :o
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2011, 03:08:55 PM »

Eric,

polynesian rats are currently found on the island and would have got their with the pre historic travels of the micro and poly nesians.

Black rats are the plague carriers of the medevial times and would have come with europeans. so it is kind of important to get the facts.
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2011, 03:17:16 PM »

There'sno standing or flowing fresh water on Niku as far as I am aware.  Suggest the 'Lake' of water was just a depression that filled with rain water which then evaporated once the storm had passed?
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Erik

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2011, 05:33:01 PM »

Eric,

polynesian rats are currently found on the island and would have got their with the pre historic travels of the micro and poly nesians.

Black rats are the plague carriers of the medevial times and would have come with europeans. so it is kind of important to get the facts.

From the Hartford Courant - Feb 15, 1930 | Shipwreck Survivors Tell of Shark Attack

"The party left the beach and took shelter in the interior scrublands only to be irritated by numerous black rats."

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Gary LaPook

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2011, 11:15:06 PM »

Thanks for finding that, it was well worth reading.

One thing it made me think about, the survivors built a bonfire and lit it when the rescue ships came into view. Why didn't Earhart light a similar bonfire when the planes were flying over the island so that the smoke and fire could have been easily seen.

gl

Dunno, good question. 

It was also commented in the article that a "chief difficulty was finding water".  Perhaps AE and FN (if both were up and able to take nourishment) were preoccupied and found it impossible to mount the man-power needed for such a meaningfully huge pile of stuff to burn.  After all, one concern alluded to in the article was keeping the men focused on survival: one good way might have been to busy them with this preparation of a fire to light in the event of ships arriving on the horizon.  That may have been a luxury AE never quite got around to while she was fighting the crabs, spiders, ants, rats and looking for water.

Or, maybe her matches were wet?

LTM -
Make a spark with the battery wires since they were up to powering the radio. Or over-prime the engine and put a pice of paper in the exhaust stack. we've all seen fire shooting out of the stacks on some starts. Or use one of the lenses from the marine sextant telescope to focus the sun's light onto paper. Or rub two sticks together.

gl
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2011, 11:18:12 PM »

"Hardship on Gardner Island" is a fascinating read, thanks for that Eric.

One thing that struck me was the description of what was happening to the ship while the surf pounded it, as witnessed and described: the continued destruction of the ship by forces of surf against ship and reef.  The fuel oil tanks ruptured and started the fire that lent more rapid ruin to the hulk.

Imagine an Electra in that place under a similar attack...

LTM
Except the plane was not out in the surf line or it would have been destroyed before sending out any radio messages.

gl
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2011, 11:29:35 PM »

The 'black rats' was actually from another newspaper article - sorry.  Does 'black' have any significance that may worth pursuing?  If so, can we post a snippet of copyright material?

Yes, you may quote snippets of copyright material.  It's called "fair use."

Not that I'm sure we can draw any inferences from black rats myself.
LTM,

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Chris Johnson

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Re: Norwich City
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2011, 03:18:23 AM »

The 'black rats' was actually from another newspaper article - sorry.  Does 'black' have any significance that may worth pursuing?  If so, can we post a snippet of copyright material?

Yes, you may quote snippets of copyright material.  It's called "fair use."

Not that I'm sure we can draw any inferences from black rats myself.

I fear it is me just knit picking, black rat could be a rat that is black in colour or The Black Rat

The Polynesian Rat can also be black in colour.

Maybe the dog wasn't the only animal survivour from the vessel and Black Rats got off the ship.  Their not there now though.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 04:01:18 AM by Chris Johnson »
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