Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?  (Read 53885 times)

Ricker H Jones

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 111
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2011, 09:31:59 AM »

The box carried by Harry Manning in this frame from the newsreel footage of the Electra crew disembarking from the SS Malolo in San Francisco following the Honolulu accident looks like a real clue to me.  Note the wire type handle on the box.
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2011, 09:56:12 AM »

gl asks: "Have you found any pictures of boxes for the Pioneer octant that look different than the photo I posted?"
I haven't found many pictures of Pioneer boxes at all, and none from 1936 or older. You didn't say what year your example represents.  I have found pictures of boxes for Bausch & Lomb, which look like a marine sextant box until you look inside.  The internal furniture is completely different from what is needed to hold a marine sextant, as you well know.  WWII aircraft octant boxes were completely different from old style marine sextant boxes - and there are lots of examples of both of those.  It's the 1937 and earlier aircraft octant box photos that I've had trouble finding examples of.
Well, keep looking but, based on the shape of the Pioneer octant, I think the shape of their boxes stayed the same from the beginning.

gl
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2011, 04:01:03 PM »

if the sextant box noonan found was painted the i would imagine it was older than 1930
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2011, 06:03:07 PM »

The box carried by Harry Manning in this frame from the newsreel footage of the Electra crew disembarking from the SS Malolo in San Francisco following the Honolulu accident looks like a real clue to me.  Note the wire type handle on the box.
Watch this video. At 1:12 into the video Manning enters from the right side of the frame carrying what might be a B&L box. It looks a little too big for a sextant box but too small for a suitcase.

Added:

Now that I have found better photos of the B&L octant box it does not appear that the box or case being carried by Manning is a B&L octant box. See later post.

gl
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 09:17:51 PM by Gary LaPook »
Logged

Ricker H Jones

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 111
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2011, 06:34:15 PM »

 

AE is also carrying a small case.  Is the case Manning is holding the same as in the frame above?
 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 07:18:01 PM by Ricker H Jones »
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2011, 08:14:09 PM »



AE is also carrying a small caseIs the case Manning is holding the same as in the frame above?
AE isn't carrying a case, it is Mantz. If you stop the video at 1:11 you can see it clearly and the shape appears correct to be a box for a Pioneer octant but if you go back and stop the video at 0:43 you can see the box that Mantz is carrying is NOT an octant box.
I think the case in Manning's hand is the same as in the above frame.
How did you manage to clip stills out of the video?

Added:

Now that I have found better photos of the B&L octant box it does not appear that the box or case being carried by Manning is a B&L octant box. See later post.

gl
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 09:20:02 PM by Gary LaPook »
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2931
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2011, 08:47:02 PM »

AE isn't carrying a case, it is Mantz. If you stop the video at 1:11 you can see it clearly and the shape appears correct to be a box for a Pioneer octant.

You will have to exclude a box for the camera that Mantz was carrying in an earlier scene, I think.

Noonan and Manning were the navigators. 
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

John Ousterhout

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 487
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2011, 08:53:47 PM »

This is great stuff folks, thanks a lot.  I'm on slow dial up, so I don't get to watch videos.  Posting clips is a valuable addition to the search.
Can anyone tell me what date the film was made?
Cheers,
JohnO
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2011, 09:43:41 PM »

This is great stuff folks, thanks a lot.  I'm on slow dial up, so I don't get to watch videos.  Posting clips is a valuable addition to the search.
Can anyone tell me what date the film was made?
March 25, 1937.

gl
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2011, 09:53:20 PM »

AE isn't carrying a case, it is Mantz. If you stop the video at 1:11 you can see it clearly and the shape appears correct to be a box for a Pioneer octant.

You will have to exclude a box for the camera that Mantz was carrying in an earlier scene, I think.

Noonan and Manning were the navigators.
You are right, if you go back and stop the video at 0:43 you can see the box that Mantz is carrying is NOT an octant box.

gl
Logged

Ricker H Jones

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 111
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2011, 09:50:14 AM »

GL: "AE isn't carrying a case, it is Mantz." 
I was fooled by AE's right hand that looks like its holding the strap in this frame.  These are from the frames shown below the video.  Click the button to enlarge.  Then, a right click on the enlarged frame, select "properties", select the URL, and post that.  If you search under Noonan's name on this web site, there is another similar video that may have different views.
Rick
Logged

Richard C Cooke

  • T1
  • *
  • Posts: 35
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2011, 10:51:48 AM »

The implication is that the Niku sextant box was almost certainly not from the Earhart flight, and may not even have been from the Norwich City.  This would mean that the site 7 castaways were from some 3rd source.

Comments are envited.
Since the Norwich City was a British merchant ship it probably had a British sextant. 

Googling it produced this link for a replica:
http://www.brassbinnacle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=br1&Product_Code=STL-38&Category_Code=SX1

RC
No that is not what a real sextant looks like. That is a cheap decorator not for real use, there are lots of these made in India.

gl
I know its an imitation made in India, but its specifically supposed to imitate a British made, not American sextant, and Norwich City is likely to have had a British made sextant.

Unlike all the other box pictures, this box is 6 sided and no cheap imitator would bother making a 6 sided box if the original was a simple 4 sided box.  I have found several imitations of British sextants of various manufacturers in 6 sided boxes, which suggests that some British sextants came in 6 sided boxes.

That doesn’t show that all British sextants were in 6 sided boxes, but since we haven’t found any 6 sided American boxes, a 6 sided box would likely have come from the Norwich City.

RC
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2011, 12:06:08 PM »

The implication is that the Niku sextant box was almost certainly not from the Earhart flight, and may not even have been from the Norwich City.  This would mean that the site 7 castaways were from some 3rd source.

Comments are envited.
Since the Norwich City was a British merchant ship it probably had a British sextant. 

Googling it produced this link for a replica:
http://www.brassbinnacle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=br1&Product_Code=STL-38&Category_Code=SX1

RC
No that is not what a real sextant looks like. That is a cheap decorator not for real use, there are lots of these made in India.

gl
I know its an imitation made in India, but its specifically supposed to imitate a British made, not American sextant, and Norwich City is likely to have had a British made sextant.

Unlike all the other box pictures, this box is 6 sided and no cheap imitator would bother making a 6 sided box if the original was a simple 4 sided box.  I have found several imitations of British sextants of various manufacturers in 6 sided boxes, which suggests that some British sextants came in 6 sided boxes.

That doesn’t show that all British sextants were in 6 sided boxes, but since we haven’t found any 6 sided American boxes, a 6 sided box would likely have come from the Norwich City.

RC
I you go to Ebay and search "sextants" you will find many real sextants and many of these fakes. The type of boxes you describe were mainly for very old sextants, early 19th century but a few in the 20th and some for American sextants so the square box described at Gardner does not eliminate the possibility that it was a British sextant, possibly from the Norwich City. Many of the fakes come in these boxes because they look "nautically" and helps to get people to by this junk.

gl

gl
Logged

Harry Howe, Jr.

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Nuclear Physicist(Ret) Pilot(Ret) Scuba(Ret)
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2011, 01:57:03 PM »


Gary and all others
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: What was Fred's Sextant and its box?
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2011, 06:40:59 PM »

Below is mentioned a Perdue source of the photo that GL posted elsewhere, which showed AE and Harry Manning holding a sextant, by the tail of the Lockheed.  The sextant appears to be a Bausch & Lomb A-6 or A-8 (differences are subtle), which would be appropriate for 1937.

"Date:         Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:12:56
From:         Ross Devitt
Subject:      About that sextant
 
In the Purdue collection at the link below (hope it works) is a
picture with the description "Amelia Earhart and Captain Harry
Manning standing near the tail of Earhart's plane and examining a
piece of equipment, ca. 1937".
 
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=3D/=20
earhart&CISOPTR=3D271&CISOBOX=3D1&REC=3D2"
That link didn't work, try this one.

I see where you are going with this John, excellent "thinking outside the box."   ;D
Here is the link to the other photo of Manning with the Bausch & Lomb octant.

Here is a link to the Bausch & Lomb in its box.

I have attached the image of the B&L in its box. (How do I get my pizza?) The box looks like a normal sextant box, but only externally. The internal structures of every sextant box is designed to hold only one specific type of sextant in place against jolts and jars and against any kind of damage. To the uninitiated, these boxes may all look alike but to anybody who had seen a B&L in its box, the box would be recognized without any trouble. So the problem with where you were going with this John, is named Harold Gatty. Getting a B&L box by Gatty would be like trying to sneak a sunrise past a rooster. Gatty was obviously familiar with the B&L, and he examined the box found on Gardner and would have recognized a B&L box. He said it was not a box for a modern type of sextant.
An obvious tip off in the B&L box is the holder for two batteries (looks like "C" or " D" cells) and the holder for two spare bulbs between the batteries since batteries were not normally used in marine sextants but are common in octants to illuminate the bubble for night time observations. This is an obvious feature in the A-10 box photo that I posted earlier too.
gl
There was nothing wrong with the Bausch & Lomb octant and it was used by the U.S. Air Corps until the end of WW II. It was such a good instrument that an identical copy was made by the Japanese and also used by their flight navigators through the end of WW II! Noonan just had a personal preference for the Pioneer octant that he was used to using when flying for Pan Am and when teaching navigation for Pan Am. The B&L was originally developed by the National Bureau of Standards and was patented in 1929 and then manufactured by Bausch & Lomb. There is one of the Japanese exact copies of the B&L for sale right now on Ebay and the photos available there are the best I have seen of the B&L and its type of box.

I have attached these photos.

Here is a link to an actual B&L so that you can compare.

I have attached these photos.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 09:07:24 PM by Gary LaPook »
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
 

Copyright 2018 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Powered by PHP