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Author Topic: Post-Loss Radio Signals  (Read 59549 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2011, 07:22:10 AM »

Sooooo, just out of curiosity, what, if anything, does Tom Crouch have to say about these signals?

I wasn't going to mention this but, since you ask -
During our BBC Radio debate the presenter asked Tom for his opinion about Betty's Notebook.  Tom said something like the same thing he said on the Discovery Channel show.
"I just have a hard time believing that this 15 year-old girl in Florida was the ONLY person in the world who heard a distress call from Amelia Earhart."
To which I responded, "But Tom, she wasn't."
"She wasn't?"
"No Tom, there were at least eight other people who accidentally heard credible distress calls from Earhart on a harmonic of her primary frequencies, not to mention the dozens of credible signals heard on the primary frequencies by professional operators throughout the Central Pacific."

The BBC edited that entire exchange out of the program they aired.  You just can't have your Smithsonian expert skeptic looking totally ignorant of the subject he's being expertly skeptical about.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2011, 05:58:44 PM »

TIGHAR No. 2189CER ... who puzzled over the added "R" for a good 20 minutes before it dawned on him that it stood for Researcher.

OMG!  The code has been broken!
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Mark A. Cook

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2011, 12:19:45 AM »

I agree with you Ric... Each and every member worked on getting all these radio transmission's into 1 very easy place all together for us really deserve a big Huge Thank's from all of us...They did a wonderfull job on this project..

I am just a  Tech. Class Ham Radio operator.. And I only got a homemade 2 little small copper wire's between 3 trees in my back yard and I pick up some amazing far away stations across the Northern American Continent and a lot in many foreign language I can't understand..

Power of them radio wave's traveling so far away will amaze you quickly on real good nights for radio waves.. Most of them are on what is called down on the low band range...

Just wanted to say Thank You to them members who did all that good and wondefull work for us..
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Sheila Shigley

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2011, 10:10:07 PM »

Folks,

Trying to get the signal times sorted out in my head.

I see that today, Niku is Zulu (GMT) +13; was that the case in 1937 as well?

Entry 1 in the Post Loss Radio Signal Catalog (http://goo.gl/td1sm) gives Zulu 0006 July 3, Gardner 1306 July 2 (Zulu -11).  Should this be July 3, which would make Gardner Zulu +13?

Entry 2 gives Zulu 0010 July 3, Gardner 1310 July 3, which seems like the correct offset (Gardner=Zulu+13).

Entry 3 is back to 0200 July 3, Gardner 1500 July 2 (Zulu -11)

Entries 4-15 continue with Gardner July 2; entry 16 is July 3; entries 17-21 go back to July 2; entry 22 is July 3; entries 23-43 are July 2.

Entry 42 gives Zulu 1115 July 2, Gardner 0015 July 2 for offset of Zulu -11, yet entry 43 gives Zulu 1119 July 3, Gardner 2319 July 2 for an offset of Zulu -12.

The remainder are for the most part Zulu -11.

GMT right now gives 4:08 a.m. Tuesday, and Niku gives 5:08 p.m. Tuesday, again for an offset of Zulu +13.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 10:16:56 PM by Sheila Shigley »
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2011, 01:26:25 AM »

Folks,

Trying to get the signal times sorted out in my head.

I see that today, Niku is Zulu (GMT) +13; was that the case in 1937 as well?

Entry 1 in the Post Loss Radio Signal Catalog (http://goo.gl/td1sm) gives Zulu 0006 July 3, Gardner 1306 July 2 (Zulu -11).  Should this be July 3, which would make Gardner Zulu +13?

Entry 2 gives Zulu 0010 July 3, Gardner 1310 July 3, which seems like the correct offset (Gardner=Zulu+13).

Entry 3 is back to 0200 July 3, Gardner 1500 July 2 (Zulu -11)

Entries 4-15 continue with Gardner July 2; entry 16 is July 3; entries 17-21 go back to July 2; entry 22 is July 3; entries 23-43 are July 2.

Entry 42 gives Zulu 1115 July 2, Gardner 0015 July 2 for offset of Zulu -11, yet entry 43 gives Zulu 1119 July 3, Gardner 2319 July 2 for an offset of Zulu -12.

The remainder are for the most part Zulu -11.

GMT right now gives 4:08 a.m. Tuesday, and Niku gives 5:08 p.m. Tuesday, again for an offset of Zulu +13.
-------------------------------------

I understand your confusion because I just checked the first three entries and they all have errors in the time conversions.  Assuming that the Zulu time is correct then the Gardner time for the the first three entries should be 1206 July 2nd; 1210 July 2nd; and 1400 July 2nd.  It is also possible that the Zulu times are not correct depending how they were arrived at, making an erroneous correction from local times. Just glancing at more of the listings at random, it appears that most of them use the incorrect conversion from Zulu to Gardner time making Gardner time 11 hours slow on Zulu when the correct difference for the standard time zone in which Gardner is located is 12 hours behind Zulu.

Standard time zones run from - 12 to +12 and are whole hours. For convenience, some areas may keep their clocks set to some other number and in 1937 Hawaii kept their clocks set to 10:30 behind on GMT but this was an exceptional case. There are other examples of this. No country set their clocks 13 hours ahead of Zulu until the year 1999 when the island nation of Kiribati, which includes Niku,  decided to switch from 12 hours behind Zulu, which is the correct time zone for Niku, to 13 hours ahead of Zulu so that they would be the first country to enter the new millennium because the year 2000 would then arrive there prior to any other place on earth which they thought would bring in tourists.  This is a completely new and non-standard way of keeping time and did not exist in 1937.

I posted the following message on August 29th: (the sign of the Zone Descriptions, Z.D., indicate the correction to local time to compute Zulu time and is the convention used by navigators and by the Navy and Coast Guard. I see by your posting that your use the opposite convention for the sign of the correction which is what you would use to compute local time starting from Zulu, hopefully this will not be too confusing for you. )

---------------------------------------------------
Question:
    "while thinking about the post loss messages. i considered a couple of things.  what time would it have been on Nicu? at the times the message were recieved by dana on the fourth? and then when betty heard the other message."

---------------------------------------------
My response:

"That's kind of a nonsensical question. "Time" is a human construct so has no meaning on an uninhabited island since the land crabs do not wear watches. People choose whatever "time" is convenient for them. In the olden days every town kept its own time with towns further east seeing the sun rise before towns further west so their clocks were ahead and displayed a later time. With the arrival of railroads it became necessary to coordinate schedules across distances east and west so the concept of "zone time" was invented. Standard time zones are 15 ° wide because the sun travels 15° west every hour so this makes the "zone times" differ by exact hours. They extend 7.5 degrees (7° 30') each way from the standard meridians (which are spaced every 15° starting with the Greenwich Meridian) for that zone. This is the system used at sea but is often modified on land for convenience by not using the exact dividing lines between zones so that entire political units, such as states , can be on the same time and also some countries change their time to "daylight savings time" in the summer. So, for example, the standard meridian for the time in California is 120° west longitude and the zone extends from 112.5° (112° 30') to 127.5° (127° 30') west. To make it easy to convert from a zone time to GMT ("Z" time, or Zulu time) the zones are given numbers (called "Zone Descriptions, Z.D.) that you add to the zone time to find GMT. For California time it is + 8 so you add eight hours to California clocks to find Zulu time. (It changes for daylight savings time to + 7, but only in the U.S. It remains + 8 at sea.)

There is an exception in that there are two zones, each only 7.5° wide (7° 30'), abutting the 180th meridian. To the east the Z.D. is + 12 while to the west it is - 12 to account for the clocks saying the same time in each of these zones but the date being different. An example will make this clear. If you are at 174° 30'east longitude (west of the 180th, Z.D. - 12) on July 3rd and your clock says 2100 you subtract 12 hours and the GMT is 0900 on July 3rd. If you are at 174° 30' west longitude (on Gardner) (east of the 180th, Z.D. + 12) your clock also says 2100 but your calender says July 2nd. You add 12 hours and and find the same answer, 0900 the next day, July 3rd.

The clocks are set for convenience which is why the people on Howland kept their clocks set with a Z.D. of + 10:30 so as to keep the same time as that being kept in Hawaii for convenience of radio schedules. Hawaii was an exception and kept time with a Z.D. of + 10:30 because Hawaii is near the dividing line between two time zones and keeping time using either of those standard zones would cause their clocks to always be in disagreement with the sun, noon would never happen at 12:00 o'clock. Note, there was no such thing as "half-hour time zones," ships at sea at the same longitude of Hawaii kept their clocks set to the standard zone time with a Z.D. of + 10. (Hawaii now uses the standard time zone with  Z.D. of + 10.)

U.S. Navy Regulation, Article 1031 issued in 1920 required Navy vessels to keep time based on the standard time zones. Paragraphs 6e and 8 however gave the commander the authority to set his clocks in a non-standard way (but he must note in the logbook the exact "hours, minutes and seconds" needed to convert ship's time to GMT as the Z.D.) when near a shore that kept non-standard time or under circumstances that "may render desirable a departure from the regular method." Itasca used this authority and kept time thirty minutes fast from the standard time zone for its location (+ 12), but Itasca was not keeping  time in conformance non-existent "half hour time zones". A half hour zone would be 3.75 degrees (3° 45') wide so in such a system the + 12 hour zone would extend from 176.25° (176° 15') west longitude to the 180th meridian. If they had been using "half hour time zones" then both Howland and the Itasca would have been in the +12 "half hour zone" since they were at 176.6° (176° 38') west longitude, only 3.4° east of the 180th meridian. Itasca kept their clocks set to Z.D. + 11:30 for their own convenience (probably to keep their time exactly one hour different than Hawaii's to avoid confusion with radio schedules too.)

So what time was it on Gardner? Its longitude is 174.5° (174° 32') west so the Z.D. there is + 12 for that standard time zone and Earhart did not know that Itasca was using a Z.D. of + 11:30 so she would have had no reason to use that Z.D. But there is no reason to believe anybody on Gardner kept either of these zone times. If Earhart landed on Gardner then her time, the time on the cockpit clock, would be the same as Lae time, Z.D. -10, since her practice was to leave her clock set to the time at the departure airport. If Noonan looked at his chronometers then the time was GMT since his were set to GMT for navigational purposes."

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,433.0.html

gl
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 02:38:54 AM by Gary LaPook »
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Sheila Shigley

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2011, 08:16:27 AM »

Just glancing at more of the listings at random, it appears that most of them use the incorrect conversion from Zulu to Gardner time making Gardner time 11 hours slow on Zulu when the correct difference for the standard time zone in which Gardner is located is 12 hours behind Zulu.

But isn't Gardner/Niku 13 hours ahead of Zulu (UTC +13)?

Zulu as of this posting is 1419 Tuesday; Gardner/Niku is 1519 Wednesday.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 08:19:23 AM by Sheila Shigley »
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Sheila Shigley

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2011, 08:39:07 AM »

Ah...does any of the confusion lie in the difference between Howland and Gardner?

Howland is often listed -12, whereas Phoenix Group is generally +13.

Howland is listed as "Howard" on this map:


« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 08:45:25 AM by Sheila Shigley »
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Sheila Shigley

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2011, 08:51:24 AM »

The Kiribati Adjustment of 1994/95

The location of the IDL since 1995
 
The most recent major adjustment of the International Date Line was announced in 1994 by the government of Kiribati.

For many years the International Date Line, that for historic reasons bisected the island republic into two halves, had been viewed as an annoying economic nuisance. The western part of the republic was always 24 hours ahead of its eastern part, and there were only four days in each week when official business could be conducted between both parts. To put an end to this situation, Teburoro Tito (the president and foreign minister of Kiribati from 1994 to 2003) announced that on 1 January 1995 the International Date Line would henceforth run along the many-cornered eastern boundary of the republic. It was only realized afterwards that the Kiribati’s most easterly islands would then become serious contenders in the race of which place in the Pacific would first to greet the rays of the rising sun at the begin of the third millennium.

The Kiribati adjustment has given the International Date Line, which during most of the 20th century had remained relatively close to the 180º meridian, a very noticeable eastward protrusion.

However, since the Kiribati adjustment of the International Date Line, many map- and chart makers still publish maps and atlases that depict the former location of the International Date Line. Although the most recent issues of the Standard Time Zones chart compiled by the Nautical Almanac Office (printed in the annual Astronomical Phenomena and available online from the World Time Zone web page of the U.S. Naval Observatory) are aware that Kiribati observes the Asian day count, the International Date Line is locally still drawn as a straight line through the island group.

Time zones map for 2007
 
Many internet sites on time zones and the International Date Line still give incomplete or out-dated information, one of the very few that does give a correct depiction is www.worldtimezone.com.

http://www.astro.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl_kiribati.htm
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 08:53:03 AM by Sheila Shigley »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2011, 09:02:02 AM »

I understand your confusion because I just checked the first three entries and they all have errors in the time conversions.

No, they are correct.

  Assuming that the Zulu time is correct then the Gardner time for the the first three entries should be 1206 July 2nd; 1210 July 2nd; and 1400 July 2nd.

The Zulu times are correct and the local Gardner times are correct for the 1937 context.

  It is also possible that the Zulu times are not correct depending how they were arrived at, making an erroneous correction from local times. Just glancing at more of the listings at random, it appears that most of them use the incorrect conversion from Zulu to Gardner time making Gardner time 11 hours slow on Zulu when the correct difference for the standard time zone in which Gardner is located is 12 hours behind Zulu.

No.  The best conversion for Gardner in the context of U.S. Navy practice in 1937 was Greenwich Civil Time (as it was called then) minus 11 hours.

Standard time zones run from - 12 to +12 and are whole hours. For convenience, some areas may keep their clocks set to some other number and in 1937 Hawaii kept their clocks set to 10:30 behind on GMT but this was an exceptional case. There are other examples of this. No country set their clocks 13 hours ahead of Zulu until the year 1999 when the island nation of Kiribati, which includes Niku,  decided to switch from 12 hours behind Zulu, which is the correct time zone for Niku, to 13 hours ahead of Zulu so that they would be the first country to enter the new millennium because the year 2000 would then arrive there prior to any other place on earth which they thought would bring in tourists.  This is a completely new and non-standard way of keeping time and did not exist in 1937.

True, but irrelevant to the Post-Loss Radio Signals Catalog which calculates time in the 1937 context.

U.S. Navy Regulation, Article 1031 issued in 1920 required Navy vessels to keep time based on the standard time zones. Paragraphs 6e and 8 however gave the commander the authority to set his clocks in a non-standard way (but he must note in the logbook the exact "hours, minutes and seconds" needed to convert ship's time to GMT as the Z.D.) when near a shore that kept non-standard time or under circumstances that "may render desirable a departure from the regular method." Itasca used this authority and kept time thirty minutes fast from the standard time zone for its location (+ 12), but Itasca was not keeping  time in conformance non-existent "half hour time zones". A half hour zone would be 3.75 degrees (3° 45') wide so in such a system the + 12 hour zone would extend from 176.25° (176° 15') west longitude to the 180th meridian. If they had been using "half hour time zones" then both Howland and the Itasca would have been in the +12 "half hour zone" since they were at 176.6° (176° 38') west longitude, only 3.4° east of the 180th meridian. Itasca kept their clocks set to Z.D. + 11:30 for their own convenience (probably to keep their time exactly one hour different than Hawaii's to avoid confusion with radio schedules too.)

The question is not what the regulations say.  The question is what was actually done. You are correct in that U.S. Navy Regulation, Article 1031 did not specify the use of half hour time zones but, in actual practice, the use of half hour zones was quite standard - at least at the time of the Earhart disappearance.  Itasca was merely following standard practice.
If you exam the deck logs of Colorado and Swan you'll find the Zone Description consistently changed by half-hour increments during their respective voyages and often in a fairly arbitrary manner.  For example, Colorado left Pearl Harbor on July 4 using -10.5, switched to -11 the next day and remained at -11 when it refueled Itasca on July 7 when it was around 174° W (same longitude as Gardner). The battleship switched to -11.5 on July 8 when it was around 175° W and stayed at -11.5 throughout its search of the Phoenix Group even though it was back in the 174° area and continued to use -11.5 until July 15 when it switched to -10.5 in the 162° area shortly before arriving back at Pearl.
Swan also used half hour times zones on its travels.  On the night July 5/6 it passed through 174° (same longitude as Gardner) using -11.
In 1939, Swan's sister ship Pelican visited Gardner to take aerial photos of the island with its Grumman J2F Duck as part of the Bushnell survey.  It used -11.  Clearly, Greenwich minus 11 is the best calculation of local time at Gardner in the historical context.

Note:  All of the deck logs use "plus" instead of "minus" because they're talking about converting from local to Greenwich whereas we're talking about converting from Greenwich to local.

So what time was it on Gardner? Its longitude is 174.5° (174° 32') west so the Z.D. there is + 12 for that standard time zone and Earhart did not know that Itasca was using a Z.D. of + 11:30 so she would have had no reason to use that Z.D. But there is no reason to believe anybody on Gardner kept either of these zone times. If Earhart landed on Gardner then her time, the time on the cockpit clock, would be the same as Lae time, Z.D. -10, since her practice was to leave her clock set to the time at the departure airport. If Noonan looked at his chronometers then the time was GMT since his were set to GMT for navigational purposes.

I don't know what your source is for Earhart setting her cockpit clock to local time at the departure airport, but I do know that she told Itasca to use GCT for radio schedules during the Lae/Howland flight (an instruction that Itasca ignored).  How AE and FN calculated local time on Gardner, if they bothered, is both unknowable and irrelevant.  We included the best available calculation of local time on Gardner in the 1937 context primarily to provide a sense of the time of day for the reader.  If Amelia and Fred thought it was 10 P.M. when we say it was 9 P.M. it has no bearing on the credibility of a radio signal heard at that time as long as the Zulu (Greenwich) time is correct.

BTW, we use Zulu as local time for signals heard by Pan Am stations at Mokapu, Midway, and Wake because Pan American, alone among all the stations involved, kept their radio schedules in Greenwich time.  They were way ahead of the game. 

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Sheila Shigley

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2011, 09:12:51 AM »

Entry 1 (30006IA) gives Zulu 0016 July 3; Gardner 1306 July 2
Entry 2 (30010IA) gives Zulu 0010 July 3; Gardner 1310 July 3

I'm just trying to understand why Gardner is July 2 in one case and July 3 in the other.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2011, 09:36:18 AM »

Entry 1 (30006IA) gives Zulu 0016 July 3; Gardner 1306 July 2
Entry 2 (30010IA) gives Zulu 0010 July 3; Gardner 1310 July 3

I'm just trying to understand why Gardner is July 2 in one case and July 3 in the other.

That's a typo in Entry 2.  Should be Gardner 1310 July 2.  We'll fix it.  That's the beauty of the internet.  It's easy to fix mistakes.
We proofed and proofed and thought we caught everything but something always slips by.  Let us know if you see anything else that doesn't make sense.  Skeptical review is the essence of scientific rigor.  Who knows?  Even Gary may find a mistake.  ::)   
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Sheila Shigley

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2011, 09:40:31 AM »

Here are the entries in "Messages July 3, 1 – 47" (http://goo.gl/Pqm2x) where Gardner is listed as something other than -11:

Entry 2: Zulu 0010 July 3; Gardner 1310 July 3 [+13] (should be Gardner 1310 July 2?)
Entry 16: Zulu 0600 July 3; Gardner 1900 July 3 [+13] (should be Gardner 1900 July 2?)
Entry 22: Zulu 0608 July 3; Gardner 1908 July 3 [+13] (should be Gardner 1908 July 2?)
Entry 26: Zulu 0727 July 3; Gardner 1927 July 2 [-12] (should be Gardner 2027 July 2?)
Entry 31: Zulu 0835 July 3; Gardner 1935 July 2 [-13] (should be Gardner 2135 July 2?)
Entry 33: Zulu 0840 July 3; Gardner 2130 July 2 [-11:10] (should be Gardner 2140 July 2?)
Entry 38: Zulu 0916 July 3; Gardner 2116 July 2 [-12] (should be Gardner 2216 July 2?)
Entry 40: Zulu 0958 July 3; Gardner 2158 July 2 [-12] (should be Gardner 2258 July 2?)
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2011, 09:44:27 AM »

Here are the entries in "Messages July 3, 1 – 47" (http://goo.gl/Pqm2x) where Gardner is listed as something other than -11:

Thanks Sheila.  We'll take a look at those and change them - or if we think they're right we'll explain why.
We want this thing to be right in every respect.
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2011, 10:16:32 AM »

Here are the entries in "Messages July 3, 1 – 47" (http://goo.gl/Pqm2x) where Gardner is listed as something other than -11:

Entry 2: Zulu 0010 July 3; Gardner 1310 July 3 [+13] (should be Gardner 1310 July 2?)
Entry 16: Zulu 0600 July 3; Gardner 1900 July 3 [+13] (should be Gardner 1900 July 2?)
Entry 22: Zulu 0608 July 3; Gardner 1908 July 3 [+13] (should be Gardner 1908 July 2?)
Entry 26: Zulu 0727 July 3; Gardner 1927 July 2 [-12] (should be Gardner 2027 July 2?)
Entry 31: Zulu 0835 July 3; Gardner 1935 July 2 [-13] (should be Gardner 2135 July 2?)
Entry 33: Zulu 0840 July 3; Gardner 2130 July 2 [-11:10] (should be Gardner 2140 July 2?)
Entry 38: Zulu 0916 July 3; Gardner 2116 July 2 [-12] (should be Gardner 2216 July 2?)
Entry 40: Zulu 0958 July 3; Gardner 2158 July 2 [-12] (should be Gardner 2258 July 2?)
[/quote
--------------------

But, using your sign convention, Gardner should be -12.

Entry 2: Zulu 0010 July 3; Gardner 1310 July 3 [+13] (should be Gardner 1210 July 2)
Entry 16: Zulu 0600 July 3; Gardner 1900 July 3 [+13] (should be Gardner 1800 July 2)
Entry 22: Zulu 0608 July 3; Gardner 1908 July 3 [+13] (should be Gardner 1808 July 2)
Entry 26: Zulu 0727 July 3; Gardner 1927 July 2 [-12] (should be Gardner 1927 July 2)
Entry 31: Zulu 0835 July 3; Gardner 1935 July 2 [-13] (should be Gardner 2035 July 2)
Entry 33: Zulu 0840 July 3; Gardner 2130 July 2 [-11:10] (should be Gardner 2040 July 2)
Entry 38: Zulu 0916 July 3; Gardner 2116 July 2 [-12] (should be Gardner 2116 July 2)
Entry 40: Zulu 0958 July 3; Gardner 2158 July 2 [-12] (should be Gardner 2158 July 2)

gl
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 10:19:55 AM by Gary LaPook »
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Dan Swift

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Re: Post-Loss Radio Signals
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2011, 10:18:49 AM »

It's beyond me how anyone could consider that they were not alive and asking for help.  And later to say ALL of these reports were "hoaxes".  I was not alive in 1937, by a long shot..thank you, but I do not understand how these radio transmissions could have been discounted.  Even in a 1937 mind set, it should have been obvious who they came from.   
TIGHAR Member #4154
 
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