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Author Topic: Sunrise Encounter  (Read 95537 times)

Zach Reed

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2011, 10:46:32 PM »

You know I have a hard time going back and finding things I've already read in the forums...it's made me lazy over time because I've kind of given up...I've run up the white flag! Moleski usually bails me out.


I'm much better at finding actual docs that are archived or elsewhere on the site.
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Zach Reed

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #106 on: June 08, 2011, 10:57:49 PM »

Chris, I noticed your post asking about the existence of any Japanese documentation of radio traffic. That's thought provoking...I guess the same could be asked about documentation by the British and Australians. I'm sure Singapore and Hong Kong had their ears on.


As an aside, I think the signal readings from us Americans were all calculated by people in the North Pacific and West Coast...would that make a difference? If the Aussies calculated a position after picking up the same message as someone from Pan Am, wouldn't that have the potential to fine tune the positioning...I wonder by how much...?
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david alan atchason

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #107 on: June 09, 2011, 09:52:14 AM »

What I like about Fred Goerner's book is the background it gives about the politics of the impending WW2. Even if it doesn't help finding AE, it does make a convincing case that AE's flight had poltical significance, which may or may not have determined some of the choices that were made by her and the US government. I believe the Japanese were intensely interested in AE, were paranoid about what the US was doing, and probably had their best radio receivers and DF equipment monitoring her at all times. Unlike the US Coast Guard and Navy who were obviously caught off balance. In Ric's book as I recall it, the Japanese come across as can't really be bothered types who may or may not have got around to a cursory search for her by a boat that just happened to be in the area. (I understand that this is just my vague recall from over a month ago of what Ric's book was saying, so I could be inaccurate) If anybody had a good idea where she was, it was the Japanese. Whether or not they snatched her up is unknown, but if they did, would they admit it? If the US military learned of their capture of her, and Goerner's book makes a good case that the command structure did know or suspect that, wow, what an embarrassment and demoralizing incident for the US. Of course they would deny it. The Japanese to this day aren't eager to come clean about much of anything, they certainly would have nothing to gain by admitting to her capture even now. I'm sure if the Japanese found her plane, they would have taken it away to be thoroughly scrutinized, which may be why it's so hard to find her plane. In fact, they undoubtedly had a large naval presence in the Marshalls, only a couple hundred miles away. They could have been on the scene in mere hours, instead of the days it took for the US to make an extensive search.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #108 on: June 09, 2011, 11:54:12 AM »

Chris, I noticed your post asking about the existence of any Japanese documentation of radio traffic. That's thought provoking...I guess the same could be asked about documentation by the British and Australians. I'm sure Singapore and Hong Kong had their ears on.

What makes you think Singapore and Hong Kong "had their ears on?" 

As an aside, I think the signal readings from us Americans were all calculated by people in the North Pacific and West Coast...would that make a difference? If the Aussies calculated a position after picking up the same message as someone from Pan Am, wouldn't that have the potential to fine tune the positioning...I wonder by how much...?

What "signal readings" are you referring to?
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Alex Fox

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #109 on: June 09, 2011, 11:56:38 AM »

I'm sure if the Japanese found her plane, they would have taken it away to be thoroughly scrutinized, which may be why it's so hard to find her plane. In fact, they undoubtedly had a large naval presence in the Marshalls, only a couple hundred miles away. They could have been on the scene in mere hours, instead of the days it took for the US to make an extensive search.

A couple hundred miles?  I'm no cartographer, but to me it looks like about 900.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #110 on: June 09, 2011, 01:21:18 PM »

We can discuss Japanese Capture on this forum if anyone can offer the first inkling of actual evidence that any such thing happened.  I will, henceforth, remove postings that are pure speculation.
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Zach Reed

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #111 on: June 09, 2011, 02:19:31 PM »

Well Ric, since they were major cities for commerce and trade, they would be major hubs for radio communication, and I'm sure the British had communications offices that regularly picked up (and perhaps monitored) radio traffic in the broader region. To Chris' point, maybe one of those offices picked up a snippet they thought might be attributable to AE/FN, and documented it. (Actually, Chris' point was about the Japanese, but the same idea would go for the rest of the region). I think it was yourself that mentioned that there was not always cooperation/communication between the different powers in the region, and that this was also typical of the search for the Electra.


Oh, and my question was about how someone from the Itasca, Hawaii, or the West Coast would calculate the source of a radio transmission, and specifically whether trying to get a fix on that source from additional listening stations to the east and south of the probable location would adjust that reckoning to any significant degree.
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Zach Reed

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #112 on: June 09, 2011, 02:26:17 PM »

So just to clarify, my question/comment has nothing to do with the Japanese capture "theory", which I always thought was sensationalist anyway.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #113 on: June 09, 2011, 02:41:13 PM »

Well Ric, since they were major cities for commerce and trade, they would be major hubs for radio communication, and I'm sure the British had communications offices that regularly picked up (and perhaps monitored) radio traffic in the broader region.

There were no scanners in the 1930s. "Monitoring" all frequencies would have to be done manually. Radio traffic was sent and received on set legally-approved frequencies at set times.
Nobody should be listening on Earhart's "night time" frequency of 3105 Kcs.  That frequency was reserved for U.S. aircraft making in-flight transmissions to ground stations.   Also, Earhart's voice radio was not strong enough to be heard and understood at distances greater than about 600 miles - usually less.  She might be heard at much greater distances on a harmonic of her primary frequencies but that would be by accident - which seems to have occurred in several instances.

Oh, and my question was about how someone from the Itasca, Hawaii, or the West Coast would calculate the source of a radio transmission, and specifically whether trying to get a fix on that source from additional listening stations to the east and south of the probable location would adjust that reckoning to any significant degree.

You can't calculate the source of a radio transmission without a direction-finding antenna.  The only bearings taken on post-loss signals suspected of being from Earhart were taken by Pan Am at Mokapu (near Honolulu), Midway and Wake; and by the Coast Guard direction finder on Howland.  See Analysis of Radio Direction Finder Bearings in the Search for Amelia Earhart
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Chris Owens

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #114 on: June 09, 2011, 05:28:48 PM »

The only bearings that we can document as having been taken on post-loss signals suspected of being from Earhart were taken by Pan Am at Mokapu (near Honolulu), Midway and Wake; and by the Coast Guard direction finder on Howland.  See Analysis of Radio Direction Finder Bearings in the Search for Amelia Earhart

My addition in red.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #115 on: June 09, 2011, 05:39:18 PM »

The only bearings that we can document as having been taken on post-loss signals suspected of being from Earhart were taken by Pan Am at Mokapu (near Honolulu), Midway and Wake; and by the Coast Guard direction finder on Howland.  See Analysis of Radio Direction Finder Bearings in the Search for Amelia Earhart

My addition in red.

True, but you can add that caveat to every piece of information we have.  Earhart's was the only aircraft that we can document was trying to fly to Howland Island on July 2, 1937.  We're pretty sure hers was the only one because we can't document any other that even might have been trying to fly to Howland that day. The same can be said of the radio bearings.  
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 08:15:14 PM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
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Zach Reed

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #116 on: June 09, 2011, 07:05:21 PM »

Ric, thanks for the education on this...I learn something every time I stop by the forums.
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david alan atchason

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #117 on: June 10, 2011, 09:17:26 AM »

I am not pushing the Japanese Capture theory, as Zach said, the book was written in a sensationalist manner which makes me suspicious to begin with. I am just keeping an open mind. Please do not comment I have holes in my head. Yes, I do learn a lot from this forum.
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Alex Fox

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #118 on: June 10, 2011, 09:58:30 AM »

Just now I was playing with Google Earth, I still can't find the plane that Zach did, but I was searching around Noumatong Islet and I found my own plane. I don't know how to copy and paste it here. It is off the eastern edge of Noum. There is dark cloud shadow (I think) to the east. This shadow has a bump in the top part that sort of resembles a head with horns. Just north of that, a little to the right, is a shape that looks like a plane with the right hand wing clipped off a little bit. Zach indicated there are better maps. Fortunately this image is not covered by clouds at all.

I don't see it.  But for academic purposes, it is extremely useful when people post actual Google Earth coordinates when referencing Google Earth.  I saw Mr. Moleski did this in a thread I was looking at yesterday, and it helped me find and mark (with a great deal of precision) the Seven Site, the graphic distortions in the lagoon, etc.  I was looking for coordinates of the Norwich City, which I did not find, but I think I did ultimately find pieces of the NC.

To record coordinates, look at the bottom center of Google Earth screen.  They indicate the position where your mouse is hovering.  If it is not shown, then make sure the status bar is activated, under "View" and "Status Bar".
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Sunrise Encounter
« Reply #119 on: June 10, 2011, 10:15:14 AM »

I was looking for coordinates of the Norwich City, which I did not find, but I think I did ultimately find pieces of the NC.

The remain wreckage of the Norwich City is hidden by clouds in the Google Earth imagery.

Try this in the "Fly To" field:

-4.660635372778139 -174.5451192981475

The location of the wreck is also indicated in many of the Niku maps that Pat Thrasher has drawn over the years.
LTM,

           Marty
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« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 10:17:43 AM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
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